January 28, 2026 • 42 mins
If you’re the one everyone turns to, you might be carrying more than you realize. We sit down with psychotherapist and mental wellness consultant Leah Marone to unpack the “serial fixer” habit—why it thrives in first responder culture and how it quietly fuels burnout, resentment, and frayed relationships. Leah works extensively with police, fire, EMS, and dispatch, and she brings sharp, compassionate insights you can use today without adding hours to your schedule.
We break down the real difference between therapy and consulting, then rebuild the foundation of wellness with small, sustainable practices: bookending your mornings and nights, using micro resets during daily transitions, and reclaiming self-care as single-task presence instead of numbing or multitasking. Leah introduces a practical rule that changes conversations fast—support, don’t solve—along with validation skills that help teammates, partners, and kids think more clearly and take ownership. You’ll hear how the fixer impulse can become “compassion as control,” why quick advice often backfires, and how to replace that urge with grounded presence.
Expect concrete tools and memorable metaphors. The internal “balloon” lets you notice pressure before it pops, and that shaken “soda bottle” reminds you to release slowly, not explode. We also cover sleep hygiene as the no‑nonsense cornerstone of recovery, data collection to challenge “dark cloud” thinking, and first responder-ready ways to downshift from high gear without losing your edge. If you want stronger boundaries, steadier energy, and deeper connection, this conversation will help you change your default settings.
To reach Leah, here is the link to her work: https://linktr.ee/leahmaronelcsw
If this resonates, tap follow, share it with a teammate who needs lighter armor, and leave a quick review so more first responders can find these tools. Your support helps this community stay sharp, safe, and human.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
it, and I still enjoy it.
And it saves me time and itsaves me energy.
Free.ai takes your note, makes atrans what you're talking about
a client, just press record.
And it does either transcript,it does a subjective, and an
(00:58):
objective with a letter ifneeded for your client and for
whoever might need it.
So for$99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got offered, because you are
my audience that listens toResilience Development in
(01:19):
Action.
If you do listen to this and youwant to use free.ai, put in the
code Steve50 in the promo codearea, Steve50, and you will get
$50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
Get freed from writing yournotes.
Get freed from even writing yourtranscripts.
Use that to your advantage.
(01:41):
Free.ai, a great service.
Go to getfree.ai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 241.
If you haven't listened toepisode 240, it was with Morgan
Yaskis.
(02:01):
Now I know how to pronounce hername properly.
It's really great.
She will worked on a mobilecrisis team.
She did the co-response up inAlaska, no less, which is a nice
little challenge and a half.
But please go back and listen tothat.
But this episode, it'sinteresting because people
contact you.
I get contacted a lot for comingon to the show.
And, you know, I will not lie, Idid not read her whole book.
(02:22):
I tr I cheated and looked aroundfor a couple of ideas.
So hopefully one day I willactually get to the book because
you know it's one of 27 that weall have to read.
But this one I really think isgoing to be helpful,
particularly for you fixers outthere.
The book is called Serial FixerBreak Free from the Habit of
Solving Other People's Problems.
And I am honored to have LeahMarone.
(02:44):
Is that correct?
Or Maroney?
SPEAKER_02 (02:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Oh, I got it right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:48):
The first Marone, you nailed it.
You got it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
French Canadian me sometimes kicks in, but Leah
Marone, welcome to ResilienceDevelopment and Action.
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
You know, it's a again, I I've I've always prided
myself never to lie to myaudience.
So I'd love to say that I had achance to read the book.
It's in my pile.
I swear that it's on the pile.
It's just unfortunately, youknow how it is in this field
where you work as a mentalhealth counselor.
But I will definitely read it inthe the the few things that I
read online.
Then you can get that bookanywhere.
(03:19):
You can go check it out if youwant to.
But if you go check out online,I read a few things out of it,
and it's so amazing.
And I think this is perfect formy audience.
But now I feel like I'm sellingyou before you even talk about
yourself, Leah.
So, Leah, how about you tell usa little bit about yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (03:36):
Oh, well, thanks, Steve.
I'm excited to be here and forour conversation today.
I'm a psychotherapist and I'mbased out of Charlotte, North
Carolina.
And I specialize in anxietydisorders.
I actually work with firstresponders pretty commonly.
I have a few on my caseloadright now.
I also do mental wellnessconsulting for nonprofits and
educators and corporate Americaon just how to integrate
(03:59):
wellness and mental health andboundary setting and burnout
prevention and all of thosethings into, you know, teams.
And so I kind of have thisbalance, I like to say, of just
kind of the intimacy ofindividual therapy, along with
then working with teams andcompanies and organizations.
So it's been wonderful, but allunder the umbrella of mental
(04:19):
health.
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Well, I think that, you know, it I think mental
health and coaching go welltogether, first and foremost.
And sometimes people can't tellthe difference, but we've talked
about it multiple times in thispodcast.
Maybe we can just give a quickdefinition of the difference if
you don't mind, because being apsychotherapist is way different
than being a coach.
SPEAKER_02 (04:38):
Right.
And I do.
And I'm not a coach.
I actually don't have, you know,kind of a coaching license.
I'm a psychotherapist.
I have my clinical license,which, yes, that is kind of
creating that space where youare helping people identify
patterns.
You're helping them identify,you know, family dynamics, you
know, the relationships thatthey're drawn to, that they that
(05:00):
they have a hand in creating andnurturing and just behavioral
patterns.
And oftentimes, you know, wereally like to go into the
internal boundaries that maybewe're lacking or the lack of
self-awareness, the certaincoping mechanisms, things that
we do to shield ourselves,protect ourselves, that
ultimately I think inpsychotherapy, we really try to
(05:21):
tap into, we try to gain more ofan understanding with.
We try to not completelydismiss, you know, but we try to
align and work with these partsof us so that we can build the
relationship with ourselves in ahealthy way.
And then that transmits, Ithink, to healthy external
relationships.
So it's using a past as data,but not getting stuck there.
(05:42):
It's, you know, a lot of times Ithink psychotherapy and just
therapy in general andclinicians get this bad rap of
like, oh, you're just completelystuck in the past.
You're helping people staystagnant in their past traumas
and their past, you know, allthis negativity.
And it's like, no, no, no,that's our data, that's our
story, along with the strengthsand the resilience we've built
along the way.
But we use that then to kind of,you know, springboard us into
(06:05):
making better decisions,exercising presence and really,
you know, letting the best partsof us shine as we move forward
and take risks and build healthyrelationships.
Where I think kind of coachingand consulting, and I do, I call
myself more of a consultantbecause I'm not doing therapy.
Of course, I have thatbackground, but I'm not doing
therapy when I show up and workwith teams and corporations and
(06:27):
nonprofits, but it's more soasking those types of questions
that, you know, we we use in inpsychotherapy, that we use in
therapy and in counseling.
And I know coaches do as well,where you're not taking false
ownership.
You are not helping, you know,you're not taking ownership of
people's problems, you'resupporting and not solving and
really helping build kind ofempowerment and allowing people
(06:49):
to get their repetitions inwithout fixing and solving.
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
Well, you know, thank you for explaining that.
And being a consultant isdefinitely different, probably
the right word I should haveused.
And the other thing, too, that Iemphasize with my first
responders, particularly thathealth insurances typically
cover it, is also those wellnessvisits.
I think that it's so key to getthrough what we need to do
because wellness ismisunderstood, also in my
(07:15):
experience.
I think wellness people arelike, oh, so I'm unwell.
No, that's not what wellnessmeans.
It's just means something else.
Do you want to talk about it alittle bit?
Because I tell my guys all thetime, but they they tend to get,
you know, I don't know, maybethey're bored out of me.
But if you can explain it alittle bit of what wellness is,
because I think it'smisunderstood a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
Right.
I mean, think about it too, isjust being in physical shape.
Like if you haven't ran for 10years and you want to, you know,
this come this upcoming weekendrun a marathon, good luck.
You know, I mean, that's athat's a heavy load.
And that's something that ashumans, you know, we need the
mind-body connection.
We need the reps, we need tobuild the stamina, we need to
train our bodies and our mindsto be able to do something like
(07:58):
that.
And I like to think of, youknow, we think of physical
health and we know we got to getour reps in, you know, and we
have to rebuild when we've takensome time off.
But think about our emotionalhealth the same way.
We have to get our reps in.
We have to be in shape.
And many of us are out of shapewhen it comes to those
self-check-ins, when it comesto, you know, connecting with
ourselves.
(08:19):
And then when we do have thismoment where we're going on
vacation, where we have thismoment to pause, where we're
very excited to be presentsomewhere, we're out of shape.
We don't know how to integratethat in.
And so when you think about justoverall wellness, you think
about self-care, it reallyrequires, just like our physical
health, kind of that consistencyand getting your reps in.
(08:40):
And I think what the one of thebiggest things I've noticed,
particularly with firstresponders and people that have
just are so savvy when it comesto entering an environment,
entering a space, dealing withpeople.
And really, I mean, you're soattuned and being to be five
steps ahead and assessing thingsvery quickly, which is a
superpower in my mind.
But it's hard to turn that off.
(09:00):
You're in a very high gear allthe time because that's a
necessity for your job.
But you can see thattransitioning out of that into
other roles that you occupy isprobably incredibly challenging.
And so when I think a lot abouteven just self-care, wellness,
just maintenance overall, it is,you know, those trips to the
(09:21):
gym, it is, you know, certainthings, but it doesn't require a
ton of time and money.
And I really love to tell peoplethat, you know, something that
is built into every single oneof our days is transitions.
And what I mean by that is evenjust transitioning room to room,
transitioning from, you know,where you work to home, walking
(09:41):
to the mailbox, you know, all ofthese things are transitions,
some of them longer and some ofthem shorter.
But we oftentimes we're soconditioned now to clutter
these, to consume during thesetimes, whether we're on our
devices, you know, checking, didanyone email me in the past 30
seconds?
Okay, is there something I canbe productive with?
Can I get ahead?
Can I alleviate myself later?
So then I can relax, but I knowI'm gonna clutter that anyway.
(10:03):
And so oftentimes it's trainingourselves to capitalize and use
these transitional times of theday and view them as micro
resets, view them as times wherewe can get in shape with being
present, scanning our fivesenses, getting in touch and
being, you know, kind of reallyin sync with our current
environment.
(10:24):
We are, we're out of shape withthat.
And so that right there clearsclutter, lets air out of our
internal balloon, if you will.
And I think it's a wonderful wayto practice shifting gears,
shifting roles, and just thatoverall maintenance of
self-connection that many of usare lacking.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
Well in that short what minute or so that you were
talking, I have like four otherquestions that came up.
And I come prepared, I swear toGod, people, I always have
questions, but now she broughtup so many great things.
You know, I'm gonna keep one ofthem because I think it's very
important to talk about thismaybe after something about we
(11:01):
talked about consistency.
I think wellness and consistencygo hand in hand.
The other thing that comes upwith consistency is you I'm
gonna come back to the realissue after that, but when you
talk about consistency, I thinkabout it as self-care.
I think most people tend toforget about self-care on a
regular basis.
I'm I can talk about this awhole lot, and first responders,
(11:22):
as soon as they heard self-care,I'm pretty sure they kind of
like I lost my audience, andthat's exactly what I don't want
because I think that self-careis a lot more than what people
think.
Getting my hair shaved, yes, Ihave a bald head for those of
you who've never been onYouTube, but that's not
maintenance.
That's that that's maintenance,that's not self-care.
(11:43):
It's something I gotta do sothat I feel good or that I don't
like feel uncomfortable having ahaircut I never wanted.
But maybe it's good to talkabout a little bit of self-care
and I how we define it and howwe can help people go in there,
particularly for firstresponders with self-care.
They think that it's you know,either going to the bar and
getting, you know, 30 rack withthe boys after a hockey game, or
(12:07):
they sometimes think of it asthis go to a spa and sit there
and get a facial, which both ofthem I don't think is
necessarily self-care, but uhcould be.
But I like to hear what youthink about self-care.
SPEAKER_02 (12:19):
Yeah.
I think one of the definingthings that really, you know,
really, I guess, definesself-care is that it's not
multitasking.
You you're present withsomething, and you're able to
again get in shape with kind ofbeing where you are and what
you're focused on.
And many of us are multitaskingduring times that we categorize
(12:41):
as self-care.
So we're kind of missing thebenefit of it.
It's also not kind of aband-aid, a pacifier or a
distraction.
You know, you kind of mentioned,like we, you know, sometimes you
go to the to the bar, forexample.
It's like we're working hard,we're going, going, going,
going, and then we leteverything pile up and we need
this massive release.
And we're kind of caught in thisall or nothing cycle.
(13:02):
And it's kind of, you know, whenyou, when you really take a step
back, it's am I doing somethingto alleviate something that I
don't want to actually face in away that's going to benefit me
in the long run?
It's really reaching for thosequick distractions, those quick
numbing agents that I thinksometimes get us into more
trouble later.
And again, it's not saying neverdo something, but I think it's
(13:24):
just being cognizant and awareof like, what are my patterns?
Am I kind of in this all ornothing mentality where I can't
shift gears naturally?
I need something to completelynumb me in order to feel
something different and escape.
And I think many of us findourselves in that chapter.
And I think it is just kind ofit's not shaming, it's not
(13:44):
criticizing, it's taking thatdata and acknowledging that many
people, especially in thisfield, have fierce inner
critics.
We have a critic within usoften, you know, pushing us when
there is something that we mightdo for ourselves, when there is
something that might, you know,constitute as a boundary and
saying, no, I'm not able to dothat.
That critic is front and center,saying, Well, if you don't, then
(14:04):
are you really passionate aboutyour work?
Are people gonna think thisabout you?
Is this selfish because you'renot doing this?
Are you not doing like that?
We have to contend with thatpart.
And I think that's the part thatwe try to shove down.
It gets really loud and then wekind of reach for those
distractions, which sometimes inthe long run really don't
benefit us, benefit us at all.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
I don't think it could ever benefit us yet.
I think that, you know, thewhole imposter syndrome.
I have one of my clients whocall it the gremlins.
I'm sure that you have your ownname for it, but I think that
they're all there.
And you know, when you're notdoing the self-care, you're
you're gonna be like, Well,you're taking care of yourself,
you get critical of yourself.
You talk about presence.
I think that one people one oneof the things that is
(14:46):
misunderstood about being a thisin a self-care method.
I like to even do presence insomething simple like a podcast.
So this is not on right now.
So yeah, pressing on the button,it's not on.
Why?
Because I want to be presentwith Leah.
I don't want to be like lookingat my phone while she's talking
to me, making sure this is donewhile this is done.
(15:07):
I think that that's what I tellpeople is that sometimes it's
also like if you want to do someself-care, be present for your
friend.
Don't check your texts whileyou're talking to them.
Don't go to email, don't gocooking, don't go do other
stuff, just be present with yourfriend.
And the best relationships I'vehad with my friends are over 39
years now.
Can't believe I'm saying that.
(15:28):
Uh like dates me a little bit.
But my my friends, we just geton the phone and we chat.
No one's checking their email,no one's watching a hockey game
or football game or whatever.
We're just with each other.
And then an hour and a halflater, we're like, holy crap,
that wasn't fair.
And to me, it's talking aboutself-care, sometimes just being
present for someone that youactually care and adore.
(15:49):
That's what I try to do, butthat's part of it.
But you you brought up anotherthing that I want to bring up is
is self-care, like if I'm afirst responder, if I do
self-care, I can't drink, right?
I can't do oh, okay.
No, really.
Oh, I like the face.
If you go on YouTube, I lovedher face, that was perfect.
(16:10):
Because I I I explain to peoplelike you can some people can
handle their alcohol, good forthem.
I can't, I can't have more thanone drink at a time.
And if I have more than onedrink at a time, the asshole
comes out, and that's not a goodthing.
But self-care is not drinking,in my opinion.
Using substances is kind of likea band-aid over a bullet hole
for it to use good language forpeople who can understand.
(16:32):
If I asked you for an example ofself-care, what would you call a
good self-care method?
So, let's say, for you know, apolice officer getting off his,
you know, he's got first shift,he's got to get home, he's got
to go take care of his kidsbecause his wife needs a little,
or you know, we can alwaysreverse to men and women.
I'm not trying to be sexisthere.
I think that what do we do forself-care prior to taking care
(16:55):
of the kids, for example?
How do we handle that?
Because a lot of people don'tunderstand that they need that
transition in order to besuccessful.
SPEAKER_02 (17:02):
Oh my gosh, absolutely.
And I think, you know, it it'sreally, and this is gonna take
practice just like anything.
Think about the analogy ofgetting in shape.
Because, you know, when youstart to kind of practice
self-care, you capitalize ontransitions, you take a moment
to look inward, whatever it isfor you, take a moment of pause.
It probably the first severaltimes will generate some
(17:23):
discomfort, might even triggersome anxiety.
Just like if you hadn't ran foryears and you go out and run,
you're gonna feel that.
You're gonna feel thatdiscomfort.
Your body's gonna be like, whoa,whoa, whoa.
And your mind might be doing thesame thing, but to stick with it
and build that internal muscle.
And I like to look at it as, youknow, whether you kind of think
about, well, I don't have timefor self-care.
(17:43):
Think about bookending your day.
Think about having an AM bookendand a PM bookend, you know, just
starting there.
And so what I mean by that iseven when you are doing the
things that hopefully most of usare doing on a regular basis,
like brushing our teeth,showering, those good things,
you know, it's not, it'srefraining from having your
phone out, listening topodcasts, doing this, packing
(18:04):
your lunch, doing walking thedog, drinking your cup, all
these things at once.
So there's a sliver of yourmorning, a sliver of your
evening that you can just stampas yours, where you are present.
You're practicing kind of likefeeling what you, you know,
whether you're in the shower andexecuting your five senses, just
connecting with yourself.
(18:26):
That is a great way to start tokind of clear your internal
clutter, to start your day offwith kind of that touch point
with yourself.
And again, it doesn't have to bethis elaborate workout, this
elaborate, you know, moment, youknow, you have to get up at 5
a.m.
now.
Most of you might probably areanyway, but it's just tweaking
some of the things that you'redoing to really practice that
(18:48):
presence, practice that datacollection, if you will.
You know, I really think thattransitioning when you're done
with your shift and you've beenin a very high gear and you've
been, you know, really there tocreate space, serve, problem
solve, troubleshoot, all thethings for people.
And you're transitioning homeinto a different role, whether
it's a parental role, yourpartner, whatever it is, we miss
(19:11):
that opportunity to almostdebrief ourselves, whether we do
that with a colleague, ateammate, whatever, even with
ourselves, just kind of scanninglike what worked well, what
didn't, what's what's this kindof do I have an emotional
hangover?
What's going to visit me at 2a.m.
tonight?
You know, just thinking aboutproactively some of these things
and having that moment where youdebrief, it really does help you
(19:33):
transition, kind of get a littlebit of closure before you move
into now.
I'm dad, now I'm mom, now I'm,you know, a wife, husband,
whatever it is.
It really helps and makes adifference rather than flying by
the seat of your pants and andmoving into a role where your
balloons are already full.
SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
Oh, full and exhausted.
And I'm not like the the there'sso many things.
You talked about bookendingtoday.
I talk about sleep hygiene.
As being the number one priorityfor self-care.
And it doesn't matter whatpeople do, a shower, read a
book.
I know devices is the onlyadvice I give.
But anything that takes care ofthem.
(20:11):
I have a 30-minute routine thatpeople laugh about, but my
30-minute routine, like I put myhead on the pillow, the next
thing I know, the alarm.
Well, maybe sometimes I gottaget up in the middle of the
night to, you know, do what Ineed to do.
But otherwise, I might put hitmy head on the pillow and I'm
like out.
Yeah.
Because of that sleep hygiene.
I think that that's a good wayto talk about bookending your
(20:33):
day.
One of the things you mentionedearlier, which I want to bring
back to this because it's alsothe boundaries, and it's
bookending your day with someself-care, is micro resets.
You know, I think that whatpeople don't understand is that
micro resets can take 30 secondsto a minute.
And you don't need to get apillow like you talked about
running the marathon.
(20:54):
You don't need to get a Buddhistpillow and do it for eight hours
or go do a whole Tai Chi orwhatever.
You can do those in smallmoments.
You talked about micro resets.
I think that's key because it'snot only good for what we talked
about boundary setting, but it'salso a good way to just deal
with self-care.
Can you define it a little moreabout what micro resets can look
(21:16):
like?
What they what how you defineit, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Sure, sure.
And it is like just a perfectexample, I think, is you know,
for if I use myself, I think Ifound myself at every red light,
every every red stoplight that Iwas at, I would pull out my
phone and just be like, oh, isthere a news update?
Did someone text me?
What's going on?
It was almost this likeautomatic, like I couldn't sit
in a space for 10 seconds or 30seconds at a red light.
(21:40):
I had to have some sort of likedistraction or some, you know,
to convince that critic in me,like, oh, you're being
productive.
This is great.
You're being productive.
And I really called myself outon it.
And I was like, you know what?
Every red light that I'm at now,I don't know how many I'm gonna
be at every in a give givenweek.
But these are times where I needto train myself to just stop and
look around and just notice.
(22:03):
I could be at the sameintersection dozens of times a
month, but I'm always gonna seesomething different.
I'm gonna notice the treesthey're changing.
I'm gonna notice this.
And just collecting that dataaround me and taking a moment to
pause and take advantage of thatpause really has made a
difference.
And I've started to integratethat into, you know, when you
are, you're transitioning downthe hallway, you're eating your
(22:25):
lunch.
You know, some days we aremultitasking, we have to, but
the days that you have anopportunity to just be present
with what you're doing, itreally does kind of ignite you,
pulls you out of that urgency,you know, gear, even if it's for
30 seconds or you know, 15minutes.
And it really does help usconnect not only with ourselves,
(22:47):
but just our environments, whichright now we have a lot of
competition for.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
I smiled, talking about you know, the 30 second to
a minute at the light and allthat.
I smiled a lot because I thinkthat that's part of what your
book is about too, and whatpeople tend to do in the first
responder world.
Well, I have 30 seconds, whatcan I fix?
And well, you don't need tospend every 30 seconds to fix
things.
Sometimes you gotta fixyourself.
(23:13):
I mean, whether they say aboutthe plane, put your mask on
yourself before helping outothers, right?
I wonder if that fixer mindset,you know, shows up at red
lights, apparently for you, butfor some other people, for
particularly first responders, Ithink that they show up in
different ways.
How does it show up for them ingeneral?
SPEAKER_02 (23:31):
Yeah, well, it is.
I think it's you know, when youare speaking with someone and
someone kind of shares, youknow, a hurdle, something
difficult they're going through.
There's some emotion involved inthe interaction.
And, you know, we're soconditioned sometimes because of
what we do, the state ofurgency, you know, especially
first responders.
Your role oftentimes is to fixand solve, like to get people
(23:54):
safe to do this with X, Y, andZ.
But when it comes to otherrelationships, you're out of the
heat of the moment.
And someone's sharing something,could be your child, could be
your partner, could be a friend,whoever.
And your brain is conditionedand automatically goes into
grabbing ownership of thatsituation, comes from a good
place to soothe them, perhaps,but also soothe your own
(24:15):
discomfort and confirm thatyou're a good friend, you're a
good colleague, you're whatever.
But once we immediately go intothat role of fixing and solving
with the little bit ofinformation that we've received
from that person, we're kind ofwe're jumping the gun.
We're taking ownership.
We are not, you know, many of usclaim to be good listeners, but
we're not.
I said many of us claim to begood.
(24:35):
Oh, yeah.
I was like, did I just claimthat?
No, I love it.
You caught me.
But yeah, we're we're thenconditioned to jump in and fix
and solve.
And so I think the whole mottoand something everyone can kind
of practice with is, you know,in your relationships,
particularly even personal ones,so that you don't have this
carryover effect is support,don't solve.
(24:58):
How do I show up and I supportand I'm still there with
compassion and I'm not leavingpeople hanging, but I'm not
jumping in with, oh, just dothis, or oh, when this happened
to me three years ago, or hey,button it up and feel better so
I can feel better.
You know, it's it's refrainingfrom that fix and solve
mentality because I think that'sone of the biggest things I've
(25:18):
seen with people with highlevels of EQ, high levels of
empty and compassion, peoplethat are so quick to be able to
troubleshoot things.
They're carrying this over inevery single relationship and
kind of creating thesecodependencies, these
imbalances.
And people are then relying onyou, whether they know it or
not, to fix and solve, structureeverything.
And we lose ourselves in theshuffle.
(25:39):
And you can see that that's oneof the main ingredients with the
setup and how we show up inrelationships and interactions
as cyclical exhaustion.
It's burning us out on top ofthe stress of your job.
That's a high intensity rate ofburnout.
SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
I mean, I I can't tell you how much I agree with
so many things you just said.
One of the things that someoneshout out to my clients
listening, because some I knowsome do.
Some get annoyed with me becausesometimes they'll say, Do you
want me to support you or youwant me to give you some ideas
to change this?
And some of them like, I wantboth.
I'm like, no, sorry, you didn'tpay for both.
(26:16):
But I took around with them, ofcourse.
But you know, support don'tsolve is a great word because in
your personal life, I mean,people don't want like I don't
know you well, Leah, but I'msure if I had a problem, I I
could call you, you're not gonnatry to fix it for me, you're
just gonna listen to me.
I think that that's what's lostbecause first responders are
fixers.
Let me add a layer to it too.
(26:38):
What I loved about working on acrisis team in the first
responder world is that yousolve the problem very quickly.
However, sometimes, again, goingback to the analogy of we put a
band-aid over a bullet hole.
And I think that that's theother part too.
I think that what fixers mindsetin the first responder
community, they I know they wantthe long term.
(26:59):
I'm not shitting on them forthat.
But I'm saying that okay, Ifixed the problem right now.
I put a band-aid on it.
Good, let's move on.
And I know they do more thanthat too.
So if you want to write to meand say bad things, please go
ahead.
You can just go in the commentssection of my podcast.
But ultimately, what do youthink about that?
I mean, what I think that whenwe talk about, you know, the
fixer mentality, I think fixerswant to fix right away, but that
(27:23):
doesn't mean that it fixes theproblem permanently.
It just means it fixed it shortterm.
Does that part of what you thinkalso is a problem with first
responders?
Or maybe I'm wrong here?
SPEAKER_02 (27:32):
I do, I I mean, I do.
And I I think it's also, youknow, sometimes when we're
always putting ourselves as thefixer and the solver, you know,
it it is kind of sometimescompassion disguised as control.
unknown (27:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Because it's it's like this whole notion of like,
you know, Steve, figure it outand feel better.
And, you know, I want you tolike get everything in a row so
that then I can feel better.
Right.
And so sometimes we go in, evenespecially with our children,
and we're like, oh, well, I'lljust call the teacher, I'll do
this.
You know, don't get upset.
It's fine.
Don't worry about it.
What do you have to worry aboutat age eight?
You know, it's like button itup, fix it.
(28:07):
I want you to be fine so that Ican confirm that I'm a good
parent or that I don't have tohave this hangover effect of
like, oh my gosh, what should Ido?
And it's hard, it's very hard.
But we also are stripping peopleof this opportunity to get their
own repetitions in, to getopportunities to have those
processing skills, to buildself-trust on their own and you
(28:28):
know, kind of uh and sometimesdeal with the discomfort of
natural consequences so thatthey learn, they have their own
flavor to it.
And if you find yourself inconversations with a friend,
with your child, with acolleague, with someone where
you're like, I feel like I'mhaving the same conversation
with this person every week.
And I'm giving them the stellaradvice, and they sit there and
(28:48):
they nod and they're like, Yeah,that's amazing.
I should probably do that.
And then they don't activate andyou're frustrated and you're
like, what is going on?
That right there lets you knowthat you're in a serial fixer
pattern.
You are trying to fix, you aretrying to do all the work and
grab ownership.
And that person doesn't havetheir flavor, that person
doesn't have ownership of theirtimeline.
And that's for you then toemotionally regulate when it's
(29:11):
not going against or going onthe timeline that you wish.
And that's hard and thatrequires patience, but you're
also working extremely hard atempowering people to go through
all the things that it isrequired to go through to make
decisions, to deal with thefallout, to deal with the
successes, and build that owninternal resilience.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
I think it goes with your book about not solving
other people's problems all thetime.
Sometimes you've got to serveyourself.
My favorite quote is a goodfriend of mine who's gonna be on
again very soon, Pat Rice.
I'm sure he stole it fromsomeone else too, but that's
just I give him credit for it,is take my advice, I'm not using
it.
I think that that's what I see alot in the first responder
world.
(29:52):
They give a lot of great advice,but they don't follow it, and
it's great advice short term.
But then the emotional hangover,as you talked about earlier,
really shows up.
I mean, tell me, tell me if youyou agree with me or if I'm
wrong.
But I think sometimes being ableto take care of other people's
problems, that's why I became atherapist.
I don't have to deal with my ownshit.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, I think that's classic inour field, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
Just I think the first responders are exactly the
same.
That's why I think sometimestherapists and first responders
really get each other becausethey're in the same mentality.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (30:23):
I'm saying it's I I I agree.
And it's it's interestingbecause it's almost like if we
can have external structure, andwhat I mean by that is like, oh,
well, I'm helping this person,I'm doing this, this is the role
I have it.
It's all external.
It really soothes that criticinternally with, like, no, no,
no, you're worthy.
People come to you, you solveproblems.
If they didn't have you, thiswouldn't happen.
(30:45):
Like you're this is you're good.
People need you.
And you can see where that kindof overlays and really kind of
kicks us into this pattern oflike, let me look look for the
next structure, the next roleexternally.
And it bypasses that, you know,uh necessity of having that in
conjunction with internalstructure, internal validation,
(31:06):
internal work.
Otherwise, we're left withanxiety.
We're left with, you know, thisdisconnect.
We're left with kind of thatfrenzy of finding things that
can be our pacifier and ourdistraction.
And it's it's not a fun cycle tobe in.
SPEAKER_00 (31:19):
I think I'm I'm gonna, we're gonna lose the the
audience, but I think you usedthe right word.
It's the pacifier issue.
What happens when your binkyfalls out when you have kids?
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:31):
I think that sometimes we pacify in order to
fix it, but we don't solve it.
And I think that there's adifference between fixing it and
solving it.
I can fix something that doesn'tmean it's solved.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:43):
Uh I don't know if that's what you go for in your
book, but I certainly that'swhat I think about fixers is
that it's all about like fixingit doesn't solve it for a long
time.
SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
That's right.
And I and I do.
I mean, of course, you know, mybook, Serial Fixer, is about,
you know, boundary settingexternally, but to your point,
we have to go in internallyfirst and really understand the
internal conflicts we have, kindof these protective parts of us,
what we are trying to suppress,what we don't want to unlock,
(32:11):
what we are constantlymedicating in in various forms
or pacifying in various forms.
And I I do that's kind of thewhole premise of the book, where
this isn't just a anotherself-help self-care book that's
gonna give you all thesesymptoms.
I'm like, no, no, no.
I want to go down to the root ofthe psychology around you got to
put the hard work in.
You gotta, you gotta beconsistent, you have to get an
(32:32):
emotional shape.
Otherwise, that's not gonnasteadily transfer into the
external roles that we play inour external relationships.
SPEAKER_00 (32:40):
I agree.
I think that that's you know,you talked about, you know, the
the boundaries.
I think that that's one of thethings that comes very clear
when you're a fixer, you gottabe able to set those boundaries.
Is there other pieces of advicethat you think that we can get
from this book that peoplereally should take away from
even our conversation?
And not only that, hen hint,people go buy the book.
(33:00):
Where would be also a good partto explain that that's why the
book is so helpful?
SPEAKER_02 (33:05):
So I want to just share, you know, I go through a
lot of you know, the wholesupport don't solve and really
break that down.
But think about too, just eventhis week, as you're listening
to this, your job right now isto not, oh my gosh, I do this,
what's wrong?
You know, it's it's let'scollect data.
So think about the next fewtimes that you're in an
interaction, a conversation withsomeone.
(33:25):
And I'd love for you to practiceinstead of right out of the
gate, giving them advice, givingthem options, prematurely
relating, you know, all thesethings where you're in
fixer-solver mode.
Start with validation.
And validation is, you know, canmean a number of things, but
it's basically letting thatperson know that you are working
hard to try to, you know,understand the message that they
(33:47):
are saying verbally ornonverbally.
So that could be eye contact anda head nod.
That could be a statement oflike, ah, tell me more, or oh my
God, it sounds like you've got ahell of a week.
You know, it's paraphrasing,it's validating, it's not trying
to troubleshoot, solve, fix toalleviate maybe your own
discomfort and confirm your ownthings.
But validation is kind of thatway that you're at a crossroads
(34:10):
and you can become thatsupporter rather than that
solver.
And it takes a different levelof patience, it takes a
different level of energy.
But when you start to do that,it's amazing how your
conversations become empowering,collaborative.
People start troubleshootingwith your support on their own.
And it's just, it's a wonderfulthing.
(34:30):
And it helps you clear up somespace for you to do some of the
work that maybe you've never hadtime or energy or don't even
know where to start when itcomes to you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:38):
Data collecting is so important.
I think that looking at our ownreaction to this stuff is so
important.
So I like that idea.
And if you ever need one, I cansend one to you.
But there's little books, youknow, those little black books
that you put in your pocket whenyou're, you know, an EMT
paramedic police officer, justtake quick notes.
Grab one for your own thoughtsand resolve, like in your
(35:00):
day-to-day life, not only as apolice officer, first responder
in general or firefighter, butalso like a human being, because
I think that that's a good wayto look at it.
And like, did I try to solve?
Did I support what did I dohere?
What can I do differently?
I don't know if you recommendthat, but I certainly do.
SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Absolutely.
And I think too, it can be thatit could whatever flavor works
with you, whether you're just,you know, throughout the day
collecting data on a one to tenscale, one being horrendously
awful and 10 being like I'm ontop of the world.
Where are you falling?
And you know that can fluctuatein any given hour.
But just collecting your data,you don't necessarily have to do
anything about it, but justchecking in with yourself,
(35:38):
taking notes on like how did Ishow up or what did I debrief or
how did I transition?
That's a wonderful way to startbuilding, you know, your case
and and kind of the foundationof the work that you want to do
and the changes that you want tomake.
SPEAKER_00 (35:52):
I think I go back to another thing too is I have too
many guys, you know,particularly paramedics, but
I'll put in the other onespolice officers, firefighters.
I'm the black sheep.
I get the I got the dark cloud.
Every bad call comes to me.
And whenever I tell them, well,how about you write the data
down?
(36:12):
And most people do not reportback on the data because they
don't like the answers that theyget from writing that stuff.
Yeah, you got a crap day.
It happens, believe me.
As even as a therapist, Iunderstand there's days I just
don't want to talk to humanbeings afterwards.
But I think that that's theother part about data collecting
that you talked about.
I really feel like, oh, maybe Iam not the dark cloud, maybe
(36:35):
it's just how I feel and how Icollect my information.
unknown (36:40):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
Absolutely.
You're kind of stuck in that,you're using one filter to kind
of process your information andexpanding that can be so helpful
and it takes time, but and a lotof awareness.
I think, Steve, the last thingI'd love to just like share with
people too is that analogy Iknow referred to it a little bit
of that internal balloon, right?
It's almost like you have thisballoon in your belly, and you
(37:01):
know, if you just leave yourbody and your mind to its own
devices, you're kind of in thispattern of like letting your
balloon slowly sometimes orquickly, depending on the day,
fill with air.
And then you're you're gonnapop.
And you know, everyone's poplooks a little different.
But you know how it is.
I mean, some days you're intraffic and someone cuts you off
and you're like, all right, allright, I didn't love that, but
go ahead.
(37:21):
Your balloon's not full.
But the days of your balloon isfull, you're ready to pull over,
park your car, get out, andlike, you know, go to go to town
with this person.
And so think about like waysthat you can be proactive and
letting a bit of air out of yourballoon and being aware that
like when you have a positiveexchange with someone, that that
let takes a little bit of airout and kind of using that as
this model or kind of thisreference of like, am I going to
(37:44):
sleep every night with a fullballoon?
Or have I worked on some thingsthat are gonna let air out and
be proactive with it so that Idon't just you know, hope and
pray I don't pop at aninconvenient time.
SPEAKER_00 (37:56):
Well, I think the balloon analogy is something
similar that I use.
Well, I'll say soda or pop orcoke, depending on what part of
the country you're in.
I don't want to insult anyone,but I tell people that's the
analogy I give about, you know,frustration, emotions that you
build up.
You just and if you're on video,you'll see it.
I'm Nick, maybe you can hear it.
You shake and you shake, youshake, you shake, and then
(38:17):
eventually you say, Hey, can youopen this for me?
And most people, I know it's aGatorade bottle for those
watching.
But the point is, is that yougot to pop that bottle if you're
gonna do it in one shot.
But if you can tap the bottom,open it slowly, it won't spill
as much.
So you talk about the balloonanalogy.
I really like that.
I used the soda pop coke analogyto fit in with to talk about how
(38:40):
to let that stuff go.
But as we wrap up here, youknow, you talked about a lot of
different things.
I want to hear more about thebook.
Tell me where people can findit, where you know, how how can
we what we're gonna learn?
Stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02 (38:55):
Yeah, awesome.
Well, you I mean, the cool thingis is that wherever you shop for
books, especially online, it itshould be there.
So, you know, you can you canget it pretty easily.
And, you know, if you've ifyou've kind of caught on to this
reference, like this is not kindof a frou-frou, like just like,
oh, you know, let's kind ofcasually magically go through
these self-care words.
No, like this is a a deep diveinto the psychology.
(39:17):
You know, I play division onebasketball, so I use a lot of
athlete references.
And, you know, as you can see,just even getting your reps in.
And so this book is is, youknow, I kind of got some some
heat from my publisher saying,who's this for?
And my response was, well, I'mhoping it's for everyone.
And they're like, Well, that'sthat's a marketing nightmare.
And I'm like, well, maybe, but Ireally am trying to write this
(39:37):
for someone who's in their 20s,their 50s, any profession, male,
female.
I don't care because I wantpeople to be able to use this as
a tool.
And my whole hope is that peoplewill walk away with this with
things that they can implementimmediately and gather data.
It's not going to becomfortable, but that you will
start to build more of arelationship and be aware of how
you show up to things internallythat will then help and
(39:59):
translate.
To you regulating yourself, yourburnout, your energy, and more
importantly, you just yourrelationships.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Well, that's what they want, right?
The publishers, the self-helpwith the crowd.
And you like, and you know whatreally struck me with everything
you just said, I think it couldgo for everyone.
I agree with you.
But particularly, I think aboutthe high achieving people.
SPEAKER_02 (40:22):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
Who need to continue to be high achieving every
freaking moment they're aliveinstead of like sometimes just
being down and being yourself.
But I think that that would begreat.
And thank you for letting meknow.
D1 basketball, that's prettyimpressive.
Where did you play?
SPEAKER_02 (40:37):
Thanks.
I grew up in Indianapolis.
So I played at Ball StateUniversity, which is about an
hour and a half north ofIndianapolis.
SPEAKER_00 (40:44):
Well, I hope you know, like we should have opened
that so that opened with that,because everyone would have been
listening.
But that's that's quite like itbeing a D1 anything is quite a
power keg, if you ask me,especially in the United States.
But I think that that's probablywhere you get a lot of that
experience about, you know, thebook about serial fixers, you
(41:05):
know, breaking a habit fromsaving everyone's problems or
solving everyone's problems,which is so we'll put it a link
in the show notes so that peoplecan go buy it.
And also your website, if that'sokay, what's your website?
SPEAKER_02 (41:17):
Sure.
LeahMarone.com and you can findme on social media.
But I'd love to connect withyou.
And if you do read the book, I'dlove to hear if it was helpful
or if it resonated.
So yeah, let's carry on theconversation.
SPEAKER_00 (41:28):
Well, when I get to it, I will definitely read let
you know.
But more importantly, you know,this is something that is near
and dear to my heart because I II really hope that you can come
back at some point because Ifeel like I typically have uh
notes and I don't want to shareother people's notes.
But this is without thequestions, this is how many
notes I took while we weretalking, which is usually, you
(41:51):
know, like a few lines on theside.
This is a lot of notes.
So I would love to have you backto talk a bit more about some
strategies that people can use,like we talked about.
But more importantly, what doesit mean to stop solving
everyone's problems?
Because that's important.
But go to read the book.
That way we can learn together.
And I really appreciate yourtimely.
SPEAKER_02 (42:13):
Oh, it's been wonderful.
I think we could have talked allday on this stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (42:16):
I agree.
That's why you got to come back.
SPEAKER_02 (42:18):
Yeah, I'm I'd be happy to.
SPEAKER_00 (42:20):
So I want to thank everyone for listening to
episode 241, and I hope you comeback next week for and listen to
show then.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(42:53):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
it, and I still enjoy it.
And it saves me time and itsaves me energy.
Free.ai takes your note, makes atrans what you're talking about
a client, just press record.
And it does either transcript,it does a subjective, and an
(00:58):
objective with a letter ifneeded for your client and for
whoever might need it.
So for$99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got offered, because you are
my audience that listens toResilience Development in
(01:19):
Action.
If you do listen to this and youwant to use free.ai, put in the
code Steve50 in the promo codearea, Steve50, and you will get
$50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
Get freed from writing yournotes.
Get freed from even writing yourtranscripts.
Use that to your advantage.
(01:41):
Free.ai, a great service.
Go to getfree.ai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 241.
If you haven't listened toepisode 240, it was with Morgan
Yaskis.
(02:01):
Now I know how to pronounce hername properly.
It's really great.
She will worked on a mobilecrisis team.
She did the co-response up inAlaska, no less, which is a nice
little challenge and a half.
But please go back and listen tothat.
But this episode, it'sinteresting because people
contact you.
I get contacted a lot for comingon to the show.
And, you know, I will not lie, Idid not read her whole book.
(02:22):
I tr I cheated and looked aroundfor a couple of ideas.
So hopefully one day I willactually get to the book because
you know it's one of 27 that weall have to read.
But this one I really think isgoing to be helpful,
particularly for you fixers outthere.
The book is called Serial FixerBreak Free from the Habit of
Solving Other People's Problems.
And I am honored to have LeahMarone.
(02:44):
Is that correct?
Or Maroney?
SPEAKER_02 (02:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Oh, I got it right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:48):
The first Marone, you nailed it.
You got it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
French Canadian me sometimes kicks in, but Leah
Marone, welcome to ResilienceDevelopment and Action.
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
You know, it's a again, I I've I've always prided
myself never to lie to myaudience.
So I'd love to say that I had achance to read the book.
It's in my pile.
I swear that it's on the pile.
It's just unfortunately, youknow how it is in this field
where you work as a mentalhealth counselor.
But I will definitely read it inthe the the few things that I
read online.
Then you can get that bookanywhere.
(03:19):
You can go check it out if youwant to.
But if you go check out online,I read a few things out of it,
and it's so amazing.
And I think this is perfect formy audience.
But now I feel like I'm sellingyou before you even talk about
yourself, Leah.
So, Leah, how about you tell usa little bit about yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (03:36):
Oh, well, thanks, Steve.
I'm excited to be here and forour conversation today.
I'm a psychotherapist and I'mbased out of Charlotte, North
Carolina.
And I specialize in anxietydisorders.
I actually work with firstresponders pretty commonly.
I have a few on my caseloadright now.
I also do mental wellnessconsulting for nonprofits and
educators and corporate Americaon just how to integrate
(03:59):
wellness and mental health andboundary setting and burnout
prevention and all of thosethings into, you know, teams.
And so I kind of have thisbalance, I like to say, of just
kind of the intimacy ofindividual therapy, along with
then working with teams andcompanies and organizations.
So it's been wonderful, but allunder the umbrella of mental
(04:19):
health.
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Well, I think that, you know, it I think mental
health and coaching go welltogether, first and foremost.
And sometimes people can't tellthe difference, but we've talked
about it multiple times in thispodcast.
Maybe we can just give a quickdefinition of the difference if
you don't mind, because being apsychotherapist is way different
than being a coach.
SPEAKER_02 (04:38):
Right.
And I do.
And I'm not a coach.
I actually don't have, you know,kind of a coaching license.
I'm a psychotherapist.
I have my clinical license,which, yes, that is kind of
creating that space where youare helping people identify
patterns.
You're helping them identify,you know, family dynamics, you
know, the relationships thatthey're drawn to, that they that
(05:00):
they have a hand in creating andnurturing and just behavioral
patterns.
And oftentimes, you know, wereally like to go into the
internal boundaries that maybewe're lacking or the lack of
self-awareness, the certaincoping mechanisms, things that
we do to shield ourselves,protect ourselves, that
ultimately I think inpsychotherapy, we really try to
(05:21):
tap into, we try to gain more ofan understanding with.
We try to not completelydismiss, you know, but we try to
align and work with these partsof us so that we can build the
relationship with ourselves in ahealthy way.
And then that transmits, Ithink, to healthy external
relationships.
So it's using a past as data,but not getting stuck there.
(05:42):
It's, you know, a lot of times Ithink psychotherapy and just
therapy in general andclinicians get this bad rap of
like, oh, you're just completelystuck in the past.
You're helping people staystagnant in their past traumas
and their past, you know, allthis negativity.
And it's like, no, no, no,that's our data, that's our
story, along with the strengthsand the resilience we've built
along the way.
But we use that then to kind of,you know, springboard us into
(06:05):
making better decisions,exercising presence and really,
you know, letting the best partsof us shine as we move forward
and take risks and build healthyrelationships.
Where I think kind of coachingand consulting, and I do, I call
myself more of a consultantbecause I'm not doing therapy.
Of course, I have thatbackground, but I'm not doing
therapy when I show up and workwith teams and corporations and
(06:27):
nonprofits, but it's more soasking those types of questions
that, you know, we we use in inpsychotherapy, that we use in
therapy and in counseling.
And I know coaches do as well,where you're not taking false
ownership.
You are not helping, you know,you're not taking ownership of
people's problems, you'resupporting and not solving and
really helping build kind ofempowerment and allowing people
(06:49):
to get their repetitions inwithout fixing and solving.
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
Well, you know, thank you for explaining that.
And being a consultant isdefinitely different, probably
the right word I should haveused.
And the other thing, too, that Iemphasize with my first
responders, particularly thathealth insurances typically
cover it, is also those wellnessvisits.
I think that it's so key to getthrough what we need to do
because wellness ismisunderstood, also in my
(07:15):
experience.
I think wellness people arelike, oh, so I'm unwell.
No, that's not what wellnessmeans.
It's just means something else.
Do you want to talk about it alittle bit?
Because I tell my guys all thetime, but they they tend to get,
you know, I don't know, maybethey're bored out of me.
But if you can explain it alittle bit of what wellness is,
because I think it'smisunderstood a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
Right.
I mean, think about it too, isjust being in physical shape.
Like if you haven't ran for 10years and you want to, you know,
this come this upcoming weekendrun a marathon, good luck.
You know, I mean, that's athat's a heavy load.
And that's something that ashumans, you know, we need the
mind-body connection.
We need the reps, we need tobuild the stamina, we need to
train our bodies and our mindsto be able to do something like
(07:58):
that.
And I like to think of, youknow, we think of physical
health and we know we got to getour reps in, you know, and we
have to rebuild when we've takensome time off.
But think about our emotionalhealth the same way.
We have to get our reps in.
We have to be in shape.
And many of us are out of shapewhen it comes to those
self-check-ins, when it comesto, you know, connecting with
ourselves.
(08:19):
And then when we do have thismoment where we're going on
vacation, where we have thismoment to pause, where we're
very excited to be presentsomewhere, we're out of shape.
We don't know how to integratethat in.
And so when you think about justoverall wellness, you think
about self-care, it reallyrequires, just like our physical
health, kind of that consistencyand getting your reps in.
(08:40):
And I think what the one of thebiggest things I've noticed,
particularly with firstresponders and people that have
just are so savvy when it comesto entering an environment,
entering a space, dealing withpeople.
And really, I mean, you're soattuned and being to be five
steps ahead and assessing thingsvery quickly, which is a
superpower in my mind.
But it's hard to turn that off.
(09:00):
You're in a very high gear allthe time because that's a
necessity for your job.
But you can see thattransitioning out of that into
other roles that you occupy isprobably incredibly challenging.
And so when I think a lot abouteven just self-care, wellness,
just maintenance overall, it is,you know, those trips to the
(09:21):
gym, it is, you know, certainthings, but it doesn't require a
ton of time and money.
And I really love to tell peoplethat, you know, something that
is built into every single oneof our days is transitions.
And what I mean by that is evenjust transitioning room to room,
transitioning from, you know,where you work to home, walking
(09:41):
to the mailbox, you know, all ofthese things are transitions,
some of them longer and some ofthem shorter.
But we oftentimes we're soconditioned now to clutter
these, to consume during thesetimes, whether we're on our
devices, you know, checking, didanyone email me in the past 30
seconds?
Okay, is there something I canbe productive with?
Can I get ahead?
Can I alleviate myself later?
So then I can relax, but I knowI'm gonna clutter that anyway.
(10:03):
And so oftentimes it's trainingourselves to capitalize and use
these transitional times of theday and view them as micro
resets, view them as times wherewe can get in shape with being
present, scanning our fivesenses, getting in touch and
being, you know, kind of reallyin sync with our current
environment.
(10:24):
We are, we're out of shape withthat.
And so that right there clearsclutter, lets air out of our
internal balloon, if you will.
And I think it's a wonderful wayto practice shifting gears,
shifting roles, and just thatoverall maintenance of
self-connection that many of usare lacking.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
Well in that short what minute or so that you were
talking, I have like four otherquestions that came up.
And I come prepared, I swear toGod, people, I always have
questions, but now she broughtup so many great things.
You know, I'm gonna keep one ofthem because I think it's very
important to talk about thismaybe after something about we
(11:01):
talked about consistency.
I think wellness and consistencygo hand in hand.
The other thing that comes upwith consistency is you I'm
gonna come back to the realissue after that, but when you
talk about consistency, I thinkabout it as self-care.
I think most people tend toforget about self-care on a
regular basis.
I'm I can talk about this awhole lot, and first responders,
(11:22):
as soon as they heard self-care,I'm pretty sure they kind of
like I lost my audience, andthat's exactly what I don't want
because I think that self-careis a lot more than what people
think.
Getting my hair shaved, yes, Ihave a bald head for those of
you who've never been onYouTube, but that's not
maintenance.
That's that that's maintenance,that's not self-care.
(11:43):
It's something I gotta do sothat I feel good or that I don't
like feel uncomfortable having ahaircut I never wanted.
But maybe it's good to talkabout a little bit of self-care
and I how we define it and howwe can help people go in there,
particularly for firstresponders with self-care.
They think that it's you know,either going to the bar and
getting, you know, 30 rack withthe boys after a hockey game, or
(12:07):
they sometimes think of it asthis go to a spa and sit there
and get a facial, which both ofthem I don't think is
necessarily self-care, but uhcould be.
But I like to hear what youthink about self-care.
SPEAKER_02 (12:19):
Yeah.
I think one of the definingthings that really, you know,
really, I guess, definesself-care is that it's not
multitasking.
You you're present withsomething, and you're able to
again get in shape with kind ofbeing where you are and what
you're focused on.
And many of us are multitaskingduring times that we categorize
(12:41):
as self-care.
So we're kind of missing thebenefit of it.
It's also not kind of aband-aid, a pacifier or a
distraction.
You know, you kind of mentioned,like we, you know, sometimes you
go to the to the bar, forexample.
It's like we're working hard,we're going, going, going,
going, and then we leteverything pile up and we need
this massive release.
And we're kind of caught in thisall or nothing cycle.
(13:02):
And it's kind of, you know, whenyou, when you really take a step
back, it's am I doing somethingto alleviate something that I
don't want to actually face in away that's going to benefit me
in the long run?
It's really reaching for thosequick distractions, those quick
numbing agents that I thinksometimes get us into more
trouble later.
And again, it's not saying neverdo something, but I think it's
(13:24):
just being cognizant and awareof like, what are my patterns?
Am I kind of in this all ornothing mentality where I can't
shift gears naturally?
I need something to completelynumb me in order to feel
something different and escape.
And I think many of us findourselves in that chapter.
And I think it is just kind ofit's not shaming, it's not
(13:44):
criticizing, it's taking thatdata and acknowledging that many
people, especially in thisfield, have fierce inner
critics.
We have a critic within usoften, you know, pushing us when
there is something that we mightdo for ourselves, when there is
something that might, you know,constitute as a boundary and
saying, no, I'm not able to dothat.
That critic is front and center,saying, Well, if you don't, then
(14:04):
are you really passionate aboutyour work?
Are people gonna think thisabout you?
Is this selfish because you'renot doing this?
Are you not doing like that?
We have to contend with thatpart.
And I think that's the part thatwe try to shove down.
It gets really loud and then wekind of reach for those
distractions, which sometimes inthe long run really don't
benefit us, benefit us at all.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
I don't think it could ever benefit us yet.
I think that, you know, thewhole imposter syndrome.
I have one of my clients whocall it the gremlins.
I'm sure that you have your ownname for it, but I think that
they're all there.
And you know, when you're notdoing the self-care, you're
you're gonna be like, Well,you're taking care of yourself,
you get critical of yourself.
You talk about presence.
I think that one people one oneof the things that is
(14:46):
misunderstood about being a thisin a self-care method.
I like to even do presence insomething simple like a podcast.
So this is not on right now.
So yeah, pressing on the button,it's not on.
Why?
Because I want to be presentwith Leah.
I don't want to be like lookingat my phone while she's talking
to me, making sure this is donewhile this is done.
(15:07):
I think that that's what I tellpeople is that sometimes it's
also like if you want to do someself-care, be present for your
friend.
Don't check your texts whileyou're talking to them.
Don't go to email, don't gocooking, don't go do other
stuff, just be present with yourfriend.
And the best relationships I'vehad with my friends are over 39
years now.
Can't believe I'm saying that.
(15:28):
Uh like dates me a little bit.
But my my friends, we just geton the phone and we chat.
No one's checking their email,no one's watching a hockey game
or football game or whatever.
We're just with each other.
And then an hour and a halflater, we're like, holy crap,
that wasn't fair.
And to me, it's talking aboutself-care, sometimes just being
present for someone that youactually care and adore.
(15:49):
That's what I try to do, butthat's part of it.
But you you brought up anotherthing that I want to bring up is
is self-care, like if I'm afirst responder, if I do
self-care, I can't drink, right?
I can't do oh, okay.
No, really.
Oh, I like the face.
If you go on YouTube, I lovedher face, that was perfect.
(16:10):
Because I I I explain to peoplelike you can some people can
handle their alcohol, good forthem.
I can't, I can't have more thanone drink at a time.
And if I have more than onedrink at a time, the asshole
comes out, and that's not a goodthing.
But self-care is not drinking,in my opinion.
Using substances is kind of likea band-aid over a bullet hole
for it to use good language forpeople who can understand.
(16:32):
If I asked you for an example ofself-care, what would you call a
good self-care method?
So, let's say, for you know, apolice officer getting off his,
you know, he's got first shift,he's got to get home, he's got
to go take care of his kidsbecause his wife needs a little,
or you know, we can alwaysreverse to men and women.
I'm not trying to be sexisthere.
I think that what do we do forself-care prior to taking care
(16:55):
of the kids, for example?
How do we handle that?
Because a lot of people don'tunderstand that they need that
transition in order to besuccessful.
SPEAKER_02 (17:02):
Oh my gosh, absolutely.
And I think, you know, it it'sreally, and this is gonna take
practice just like anything.
Think about the analogy ofgetting in shape.
Because, you know, when youstart to kind of practice
self-care, you capitalize ontransitions, you take a moment
to look inward, whatever it isfor you, take a moment of pause.
It probably the first severaltimes will generate some
(17:23):
discomfort, might even triggersome anxiety.
Just like if you hadn't ran foryears and you go out and run,
you're gonna feel that.
You're gonna feel thatdiscomfort.
Your body's gonna be like, whoa,whoa, whoa.
And your mind might be doing thesame thing, but to stick with it
and build that internal muscle.
And I like to look at it as, youknow, whether you kind of think
about, well, I don't have timefor self-care.
(17:43):
Think about bookending your day.
Think about having an AM bookendand a PM bookend, you know, just
starting there.
And so what I mean by that iseven when you are doing the
things that hopefully most of usare doing on a regular basis,
like brushing our teeth,showering, those good things,
you know, it's not, it'srefraining from having your
phone out, listening topodcasts, doing this, packing
(18:04):
your lunch, doing walking thedog, drinking your cup, all
these things at once.
So there's a sliver of yourmorning, a sliver of your
evening that you can just stampas yours, where you are present.
You're practicing kind of likefeeling what you, you know,
whether you're in the shower andexecuting your five senses, just
connecting with yourself.
(18:26):
That is a great way to start tokind of clear your internal
clutter, to start your day offwith kind of that touch point
with yourself.
And again, it doesn't have to bethis elaborate workout, this
elaborate, you know, moment, youknow, you have to get up at 5
a.m.
now.
Most of you might probably areanyway, but it's just tweaking
some of the things that you'redoing to really practice that
(18:48):
presence, practice that datacollection, if you will.
You know, I really think thattransitioning when you're done
with your shift and you've beenin a very high gear and you've
been, you know, really there tocreate space, serve, problem
solve, troubleshoot, all thethings for people.
And you're transitioning homeinto a different role, whether
it's a parental role, yourpartner, whatever it is, we miss
(19:11):
that opportunity to almostdebrief ourselves, whether we do
that with a colleague, ateammate, whatever, even with
ourselves, just kind of scanninglike what worked well, what
didn't, what's what's this kindof do I have an emotional
hangover?
What's going to visit me at 2a.m.
tonight?
You know, just thinking aboutproactively some of these things
and having that moment where youdebrief, it really does help you
(19:33):
transition, kind of get a littlebit of closure before you move
into now.
I'm dad, now I'm mom, now I'm,you know, a wife, husband,
whatever it is.
It really helps and makes adifference rather than flying by
the seat of your pants and andmoving into a role where your
balloons are already full.
SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
Oh, full and exhausted.
And I'm not like the the there'sso many things.
You talked about bookendingtoday.
I talk about sleep hygiene.
As being the number one priorityfor self-care.
And it doesn't matter whatpeople do, a shower, read a
book.
I know devices is the onlyadvice I give.
But anything that takes care ofthem.
(20:11):
I have a 30-minute routine thatpeople laugh about, but my
30-minute routine, like I put myhead on the pillow, the next
thing I know, the alarm.
Well, maybe sometimes I gottaget up in the middle of the
night to, you know, do what Ineed to do.
But otherwise, I might put hitmy head on the pillow and I'm
like out.
Yeah.
Because of that sleep hygiene.
I think that that's a good wayto talk about bookending your
(20:33):
day.
One of the things you mentionedearlier, which I want to bring
back to this because it's alsothe boundaries, and it's
bookending your day with someself-care, is micro resets.
You know, I think that whatpeople don't understand is that
micro resets can take 30 secondsto a minute.
And you don't need to get apillow like you talked about
running the marathon.
(20:54):
You don't need to get a Buddhistpillow and do it for eight hours
or go do a whole Tai Chi orwhatever.
You can do those in smallmoments.
You talked about micro resets.
I think that's key because it'snot only good for what we talked
about boundary setting, but it'salso a good way to just deal
with self-care.
Can you define it a little moreabout what micro resets can look
(21:16):
like?
What they what how you defineit, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Sure, sure.
And it is like just a perfectexample, I think, is you know,
for if I use myself, I think Ifound myself at every red light,
every every red stoplight that Iwas at, I would pull out my
phone and just be like, oh, isthere a news update?
Did someone text me?
What's going on?
It was almost this likeautomatic, like I couldn't sit
in a space for 10 seconds or 30seconds at a red light.
(21:40):
I had to have some sort of likedistraction or some, you know,
to convince that critic in me,like, oh, you're being
productive.
This is great.
You're being productive.
And I really called myself outon it.
And I was like, you know what?
Every red light that I'm at now,I don't know how many I'm gonna
be at every in a give givenweek.
But these are times where I needto train myself to just stop and
look around and just notice.
(22:03):
I could be at the sameintersection dozens of times a
month, but I'm always gonna seesomething different.
I'm gonna notice the treesthey're changing.
I'm gonna notice this.
And just collecting that dataaround me and taking a moment to
pause and take advantage of thatpause really has made a
difference.
And I've started to integratethat into, you know, when you
are, you're transitioning downthe hallway, you're eating your
(22:25):
lunch.
You know, some days we aremultitasking, we have to, but
the days that you have anopportunity to just be present
with what you're doing, itreally does kind of ignite you,
pulls you out of that urgency,you know, gear, even if it's for
30 seconds or you know, 15minutes.
And it really does help usconnect not only with ourselves,
(22:47):
but just our environments, whichright now we have a lot of
competition for.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
I smiled, talking about you know, the 30 second to
a minute at the light and allthat.
I smiled a lot because I thinkthat that's part of what your
book is about too, and whatpeople tend to do in the first
responder world.
Well, I have 30 seconds, whatcan I fix?
And well, you don't need tospend every 30 seconds to fix
things.
Sometimes you gotta fixyourself.
(23:13):
I mean, whether they say aboutthe plane, put your mask on
yourself before helping outothers, right?
I wonder if that fixer mindset,you know, shows up at red
lights, apparently for you, butfor some other people, for
particularly first responders, Ithink that they show up in
different ways.
How does it show up for them ingeneral?
SPEAKER_02 (23:31):
Yeah, well, it is.
I think it's you know, when youare speaking with someone and
someone kind of shares, youknow, a hurdle, something
difficult they're going through.
There's some emotion involved inthe interaction.
And, you know, we're soconditioned sometimes because of
what we do, the state ofurgency, you know, especially
first responders.
Your role oftentimes is to fixand solve, like to get people
(23:54):
safe to do this with X, Y, andZ.
But when it comes to otherrelationships, you're out of the
heat of the moment.
And someone's sharing something,could be your child, could be
your partner, could be a friend,whoever.
And your brain is conditionedand automatically goes into
grabbing ownership of thatsituation, comes from a good
place to soothe them, perhaps,but also soothe your own
(24:15):
discomfort and confirm thatyou're a good friend, you're a
good colleague, you're whatever.
But once we immediately go intothat role of fixing and solving
with the little bit ofinformation that we've received
from that person, we're kind ofwe're jumping the gun.
We're taking ownership.
We are not, you know, many of usclaim to be good listeners, but
we're not.
I said many of us claim to begood.
(24:35):
Oh, yeah.
I was like, did I just claimthat?
No, I love it.
You caught me.
But yeah, we're we're thenconditioned to jump in and fix
and solve.
And so I think the whole mottoand something everyone can kind
of practice with is, you know,in your relationships,
particularly even personal ones,so that you don't have this
carryover effect is support,don't solve.
(24:58):
How do I show up and I supportand I'm still there with
compassion and I'm not leavingpeople hanging, but I'm not
jumping in with, oh, just dothis, or oh, when this happened
to me three years ago, or hey,button it up and feel better so
I can feel better.
You know, it's it's refrainingfrom that fix and solve
mentality because I think that'sone of the biggest things I've
(25:18):
seen with people with highlevels of EQ, high levels of
empty and compassion, peoplethat are so quick to be able to
troubleshoot things.
They're carrying this over inevery single relationship and
kind of creating thesecodependencies, these
imbalances.
And people are then relying onyou, whether they know it or
not, to fix and solve, structureeverything.
And we lose ourselves in theshuffle.
(25:39):
And you can see that that's oneof the main ingredients with the
setup and how we show up inrelationships and interactions
as cyclical exhaustion.
It's burning us out on top ofthe stress of your job.
That's a high intensity rate ofburnout.
SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
I mean, I I can't tell you how much I agree with
so many things you just said.
One of the things that someoneshout out to my clients
listening, because some I knowsome do.
Some get annoyed with me becausesometimes they'll say, Do you
want me to support you or youwant me to give you some ideas
to change this?
And some of them like, I wantboth.
I'm like, no, sorry, you didn'tpay for both.
(26:16):
But I took around with them, ofcourse.
But you know, support don'tsolve is a great word because in
your personal life, I mean,people don't want like I don't
know you well, Leah, but I'msure if I had a problem, I I
could call you, you're not gonnatry to fix it for me, you're
just gonna listen to me.
I think that that's what's lostbecause first responders are
fixers.
Let me add a layer to it too.
(26:38):
What I loved about working on acrisis team in the first
responder world is that yousolve the problem very quickly.
However, sometimes, again, goingback to the analogy of we put a
band-aid over a bullet hole.
And I think that that's theother part too.
I think that what fixers mindsetin the first responder
community, they I know they wantthe long term.
(26:59):
I'm not shitting on them forthat.
But I'm saying that okay, Ifixed the problem right now.
I put a band-aid on it.
Good, let's move on.
And I know they do more thanthat too.
So if you want to write to meand say bad things, please go
ahead.
You can just go in the commentssection of my podcast.
But ultimately, what do youthink about that?
I mean, what I think that whenwe talk about, you know, the
fixer mentality, I think fixerswant to fix right away, but that
(27:23):
doesn't mean that it fixes theproblem permanently.
It just means it fixed it shortterm.
Does that part of what you thinkalso is a problem with first
responders?
Or maybe I'm wrong here?
SPEAKER_02 (27:32):
I do, I I mean, I do.
And I I think it's also, youknow, sometimes when we're
always putting ourselves as thefixer and the solver, you know,
it it is kind of sometimescompassion disguised as control.
unknown (27:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Because it's it's like this whole notion of like,
you know, Steve, figure it outand feel better.
And, you know, I want you tolike get everything in a row so
that then I can feel better.
Right.
And so sometimes we go in, evenespecially with our children,
and we're like, oh, well, I'lljust call the teacher, I'll do
this.
You know, don't get upset.
It's fine.
Don't worry about it.
What do you have to worry aboutat age eight?
You know, it's like button itup, fix it.
(28:07):
I want you to be fine so that Ican confirm that I'm a good
parent or that I don't have tohave this hangover effect of
like, oh my gosh, what should Ido?
And it's hard, it's very hard.
But we also are stripping peopleof this opportunity to get their
own repetitions in, to getopportunities to have those
processing skills, to buildself-trust on their own and you
(28:28):
know, kind of uh and sometimesdeal with the discomfort of
natural consequences so thatthey learn, they have their own
flavor to it.
And if you find yourself inconversations with a friend,
with your child, with acolleague, with someone where
you're like, I feel like I'mhaving the same conversation
with this person every week.
And I'm giving them the stellaradvice, and they sit there and
(28:48):
they nod and they're like, Yeah,that's amazing.
I should probably do that.
And then they don't activate andyou're frustrated and you're
like, what is going on?
That right there lets you knowthat you're in a serial fixer
pattern.
You are trying to fix, you aretrying to do all the work and
grab ownership.
And that person doesn't havetheir flavor, that person
doesn't have ownership of theirtimeline.
And that's for you then toemotionally regulate when it's
(29:11):
not going against or going onthe timeline that you wish.
And that's hard and thatrequires patience, but you're
also working extremely hard atempowering people to go through
all the things that it isrequired to go through to make
decisions, to deal with thefallout, to deal with the
successes, and build that owninternal resilience.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
I think it goes with your book about not solving
other people's problems all thetime.
Sometimes you've got to serveyourself.
My favorite quote is a goodfriend of mine who's gonna be on
again very soon, Pat Rice.
I'm sure he stole it fromsomeone else too, but that's
just I give him credit for it,is take my advice, I'm not using
it.
I think that that's what I see alot in the first responder
world.
(29:52):
They give a lot of great advice,but they don't follow it, and
it's great advice short term.
But then the emotional hangover,as you talked about earlier,
really shows up.
I mean, tell me, tell me if youyou agree with me or if I'm
wrong.
But I think sometimes being ableto take care of other people's
problems, that's why I became atherapist.
I don't have to deal with my ownshit.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, I think that's classic inour field, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
Just I think the first responders are exactly the
same.
That's why I think sometimestherapists and first responders
really get each other becausethey're in the same mentality.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (30:23):
I'm saying it's I I I agree.
And it's it's interestingbecause it's almost like if we
can have external structure, andwhat I mean by that is like, oh,
well, I'm helping this person,I'm doing this, this is the role
I have it.
It's all external.
It really soothes that criticinternally with, like, no, no,
no, you're worthy.
People come to you, you solveproblems.
If they didn't have you, thiswouldn't happen.
(30:45):
Like you're this is you're good.
People need you.
And you can see where that kindof overlays and really kind of
kicks us into this pattern oflike, let me look look for the
next structure, the next roleexternally.
And it bypasses that, you know,uh necessity of having that in
conjunction with internalstructure, internal validation,
(31:06):
internal work.
Otherwise, we're left withanxiety.
We're left with, you know, thisdisconnect.
We're left with kind of thatfrenzy of finding things that
can be our pacifier and ourdistraction.
And it's it's not a fun cycle tobe in.
SPEAKER_00 (31:19):
I think I'm I'm gonna, we're gonna lose the the
audience, but I think you usedthe right word.
It's the pacifier issue.
What happens when your binkyfalls out when you have kids?
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:31):
I think that sometimes we pacify in order to
fix it, but we don't solve it.
And I think that there's adifference between fixing it and
solving it.
I can fix something that doesn'tmean it's solved.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:43):
Uh I don't know if that's what you go for in your
book, but I certainly that'swhat I think about fixers is
that it's all about like fixingit doesn't solve it for a long
time.
SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
That's right.
And I and I do.
I mean, of course, you know, mybook, Serial Fixer, is about,
you know, boundary settingexternally, but to your point,
we have to go in internallyfirst and really understand the
internal conflicts we have, kindof these protective parts of us,
what we are trying to suppress,what we don't want to unlock,
(32:11):
what we are constantlymedicating in in various forms
or pacifying in various forms.
And I I do that's kind of thewhole premise of the book, where
this isn't just a anotherself-help self-care book that's
gonna give you all thesesymptoms.
I'm like, no, no, no.
I want to go down to the root ofthe psychology around you got to
put the hard work in.
You gotta, you gotta beconsistent, you have to get an
(32:32):
emotional shape.
Otherwise, that's not gonnasteadily transfer into the
external roles that we play inour external relationships.
SPEAKER_00 (32:40):
I agree.
I think that that's you know,you talked about, you know, the
the boundaries.
I think that that's one of thethings that comes very clear
when you're a fixer, you gottabe able to set those boundaries.
Is there other pieces of advicethat you think that we can get
from this book that peoplereally should take away from
even our conversation?
And not only that, hen hint,people go buy the book.
(33:00):
Where would be also a good partto explain that that's why the
book is so helpful?
SPEAKER_02 (33:05):
So I want to just share, you know, I go through a
lot of you know, the wholesupport don't solve and really
break that down.
But think about too, just eventhis week, as you're listening
to this, your job right now isto not, oh my gosh, I do this,
what's wrong?
You know, it's it's let'scollect data.
So think about the next fewtimes that you're in an
interaction, a conversation withsomeone.
(33:25):
And I'd love for you to practiceinstead of right out of the
gate, giving them advice, givingthem options, prematurely
relating, you know, all thesethings where you're in
fixer-solver mode.
Start with validation.
And validation is, you know, canmean a number of things, but
it's basically letting thatperson know that you are working
hard to try to, you know,understand the message that they
(33:47):
are saying verbally ornonverbally.
So that could be eye contact anda head nod.
That could be a statement oflike, ah, tell me more, or oh my
God, it sounds like you've got ahell of a week.
You know, it's paraphrasing,it's validating, it's not trying
to troubleshoot, solve, fix toalleviate maybe your own
discomfort and confirm your ownthings.
But validation is kind of thatway that you're at a crossroads
(34:10):
and you can become thatsupporter rather than that
solver.
And it takes a different levelof patience, it takes a
different level of energy.
But when you start to do that,it's amazing how your
conversations become empowering,collaborative.
People start troubleshootingwith your support on their own.
And it's just, it's a wonderfulthing.
(34:30):
And it helps you clear up somespace for you to do some of the
work that maybe you've never hadtime or energy or don't even
know where to start when itcomes to you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:38):
Data collecting is so important.
I think that looking at our ownreaction to this stuff is so
important.
So I like that idea.
And if you ever need one, I cansend one to you.
But there's little books, youknow, those little black books
that you put in your pocket whenyou're, you know, an EMT
paramedic police officer, justtake quick notes.
Grab one for your own thoughtsand resolve, like in your
(35:00):
day-to-day life, not only as apolice officer, first responder
in general or firefighter, butalso like a human being, because
I think that that's a good wayto look at it.
And like, did I try to solve?
Did I support what did I dohere?
What can I do differently?
I don't know if you recommendthat, but I certainly do.
SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Absolutely.
And I think too, it can be thatit could whatever flavor works
with you, whether you're just,you know, throughout the day
collecting data on a one to tenscale, one being horrendously
awful and 10 being like I'm ontop of the world.
Where are you falling?
And you know that can fluctuatein any given hour.
But just collecting your data,you don't necessarily have to do
anything about it, but justchecking in with yourself,
(35:38):
taking notes on like how did Ishow up or what did I debrief or
how did I transition?
That's a wonderful way to startbuilding, you know, your case
and and kind of the foundationof the work that you want to do
and the changes that you want tomake.
SPEAKER_00 (35:52):
I think I go back to another thing too is I have too
many guys, you know,particularly paramedics, but
I'll put in the other onespolice officers, firefighters.
I'm the black sheep.
I get the I got the dark cloud.
Every bad call comes to me.
And whenever I tell them, well,how about you write the data
down?
(36:12):
And most people do not reportback on the data because they
don't like the answers that theyget from writing that stuff.
Yeah, you got a crap day.
It happens, believe me.
As even as a therapist, Iunderstand there's days I just
don't want to talk to humanbeings afterwards.
But I think that that's theother part about data collecting
that you talked about.
I really feel like, oh, maybe Iam not the dark cloud, maybe
(36:35):
it's just how I feel and how Icollect my information.
unknown (36:40):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
Absolutely.
You're kind of stuck in that,you're using one filter to kind
of process your information andexpanding that can be so helpful
and it takes time, but and a lotof awareness.
I think, Steve, the last thingI'd love to just like share with
people too is that analogy Iknow referred to it a little bit
of that internal balloon, right?
It's almost like you have thisballoon in your belly, and you
(37:01):
know, if you just leave yourbody and your mind to its own
devices, you're kind of in thispattern of like letting your
balloon slowly sometimes orquickly, depending on the day,
fill with air.
And then you're you're gonnapop.
And you know, everyone's poplooks a little different.
But you know how it is.
I mean, some days you're intraffic and someone cuts you off
and you're like, all right, allright, I didn't love that, but
go ahead.
(37:21):
Your balloon's not full.
But the days of your balloon isfull, you're ready to pull over,
park your car, get out, andlike, you know, go to go to town
with this person.
And so think about like waysthat you can be proactive and
letting a bit of air out of yourballoon and being aware that
like when you have a positiveexchange with someone, that that
let takes a little bit of airout and kind of using that as
this model or kind of thisreference of like, am I going to
(37:44):
sleep every night with a fullballoon?
Or have I worked on some thingsthat are gonna let air out and
be proactive with it so that Idon't just you know, hope and
pray I don't pop at aninconvenient time.
SPEAKER_00 (37:56):
Well, I think the balloon analogy is something
similar that I use.
Well, I'll say soda or pop orcoke, depending on what part of
the country you're in.
I don't want to insult anyone,but I tell people that's the
analogy I give about, you know,frustration, emotions that you
build up.
You just and if you're on video,you'll see it.
I'm Nick, maybe you can hear it.
You shake and you shake, youshake, you shake, and then
(38:17):
eventually you say, Hey, can youopen this for me?
And most people, I know it's aGatorade bottle for those
watching.
But the point is, is that yougot to pop that bottle if you're
gonna do it in one shot.
But if you can tap the bottom,open it slowly, it won't spill
as much.
So you talk about the balloonanalogy.
I really like that.
I used the soda pop coke analogyto fit in with to talk about how
(38:40):
to let that stuff go.
But as we wrap up here, youknow, you talked about a lot of
different things.
I want to hear more about thebook.
Tell me where people can findit, where you know, how how can
we what we're gonna learn?
Stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02 (38:55):
Yeah, awesome.
Well, you I mean, the cool thingis is that wherever you shop for
books, especially online, it itshould be there.
So, you know, you can you canget it pretty easily.
And, you know, if you've ifyou've kind of caught on to this
reference, like this is not kindof a frou-frou, like just like,
oh, you know, let's kind ofcasually magically go through
these self-care words.
No, like this is a a deep diveinto the psychology.
(39:17):
You know, I play division onebasketball, so I use a lot of
athlete references.
And, you know, as you can see,just even getting your reps in.
And so this book is is, youknow, I kind of got some some
heat from my publisher saying,who's this for?
And my response was, well, I'mhoping it's for everyone.
And they're like, Well, that'sthat's a marketing nightmare.
And I'm like, well, maybe, but Ireally am trying to write this
(39:37):
for someone who's in their 20s,their 50s, any profession, male,
female.
I don't care because I wantpeople to be able to use this as
a tool.
And my whole hope is that peoplewill walk away with this with
things that they can implementimmediately and gather data.
It's not going to becomfortable, but that you will
start to build more of arelationship and be aware of how
you show up to things internallythat will then help and
(39:59):
translate.
To you regulating yourself, yourburnout, your energy, and more
importantly, you just yourrelationships.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Well, that's what they want, right?
The publishers, the self-helpwith the crowd.
And you like, and you know whatreally struck me with everything
you just said, I think it couldgo for everyone.
I agree with you.
But particularly, I think aboutthe high achieving people.
SPEAKER_02 (40:22):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
Who need to continue to be high achieving every
freaking moment they're aliveinstead of like sometimes just
being down and being yourself.
But I think that that would begreat.
And thank you for letting meknow.
D1 basketball, that's prettyimpressive.
Where did you play?
SPEAKER_02 (40:37):
Thanks.
I grew up in Indianapolis.
So I played at Ball StateUniversity, which is about an
hour and a half north ofIndianapolis.
SPEAKER_00 (40:44):
Well, I hope you know, like we should have opened
that so that opened with that,because everyone would have been
listening.
But that's that's quite like itbeing a D1 anything is quite a
power keg, if you ask me,especially in the United States.
But I think that that's probablywhere you get a lot of that
experience about, you know, thebook about serial fixers, you
(41:05):
know, breaking a habit fromsaving everyone's problems or
solving everyone's problems,which is so we'll put it a link
in the show notes so that peoplecan go buy it.
And also your website, if that'sokay, what's your website?
SPEAKER_02 (41:17):
Sure.
LeahMarone.com and you can findme on social media.
But I'd love to connect withyou.
And if you do read the book, I'dlove to hear if it was helpful
or if it resonated.
So yeah, let's carry on theconversation.
SPEAKER_00 (41:28):
Well, when I get to it, I will definitely read let
you know.
But more importantly, you know,this is something that is near
and dear to my heart because I II really hope that you can come
back at some point because Ifeel like I typically have uh
notes and I don't want to shareother people's notes.
But this is without thequestions, this is how many
notes I took while we weretalking, which is usually, you
(41:51):
know, like a few lines on theside.
This is a lot of notes.
So I would love to have you backto talk a bit more about some
strategies that people can use,like we talked about.
But more importantly, what doesit mean to stop solving
everyone's problems?
Because that's important.
But go to read the book.
That way we can learn together.
And I really appreciate yourtimely.
SPEAKER_02 (42:13):
Oh, it's been wonderful.
I think we could have talked allday on this stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (42:16):
I agree.
That's why you got to come back.
SPEAKER_02 (42:18):
Yeah, I'm I'd be happy to.
SPEAKER_00 (42:20):
So I want to thank everyone for listening to
episode 241, and I hope you comeback next week for and listen to
show then.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(42:53):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.