June 10, 2026 • 30 mins
You can build the best peer support team on paper, fund the best wellness initiatives, and still miss the people who are hurting the most. That’s where this conversation with Dr. Stacey Raymond goes, and we don’t stay polite about it. We talk about why first responder mental health needs to start at the academy level, with a clear warning: the job will expose you to traumatic events, and it will change your sleep, your relationships, and how you see the world.
We also get specific about a topic that frustrates a lot of officers and clinicians alike: what “vetted therapist” should actually mean. If you’re a clinician who wants to work with police, fire, EMS, or dispatch, cultural competence isn’t a buzzword. It’s ride-alongs, learning how calls really flow, understanding why police often don’t get to process between calls, and recognizing how trust is earned minute by minute. Along the way we highlight the hidden load carried by 911 dispatchers, including relentless exposure to crisis audio, limited movement, and little closure due to HIPAA.
Then we zoom out to leadership and risk. Chiefs and supervisors often want certainty about who is “safe,” but human behavior is dynamic and can shift fast with substances, gambling addiction, and life stress. Dr. Raymond shares research using the ACEs questionnaire and adult attachment patterns, showing how certain adverse childhood experiences correlate with avoidant, mistrustful coping, meaning some officers will bypass peer support and refuse therapy even when they know they’re struggling.
If you care about police wellness, first responder resilience, EMDR-informed trauma treatment, and building a culture where getting help doesn’t feel dangerous, hit play. Subscribe, share this with someone in public safety, and leave a review so more people can find the conversation.
To reach Stacy, please go to her website: https://www.drstacyraymond.com/
Her Instagram is https://www.instagram.com/stacyshrink1414/
You can buy her book here
DeemedFit: First Responder OwnedWe are a first responder owned company looking to get first responders in the best mental shape.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:29):
And just like magic, we're dressed the same exact
way, but it's a week later.
I don't know.
It's a week later.
Wow.
Welcome again to ResilienceDevelopment in Action to Dr.
Stacey Raymond.
We talked about EMDR the lastepisode, but I want to focus on
something that's meant a lot tome too.
And I see that it means a lot toyou too.
So that's why I'm excited aboutthis, too.
You we're going to talk aboutyour book, Helping the Helpers,
(00:51):
particularly.
I think that's very helpful fortherapists to look at.
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
I should probably show it, right?
There it is, Helping theHelpers.
And it's co-authored with DavidDashinger.
He's a retired fire lieutenant.
And there's Bonnie Rummely.
And she has been an EMT sincethe age of 17.
So she did it for most of herlife, but she's a clinical
social worker now.
So the three of us put thistogether based on the what we
(01:16):
called the master class series,where we interviewed clinicians
working with various branches ofpublic safety.
And we have a podcast as wellcalled Responder Resilience.
SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
Well, I'd love to be on there too, but I was going to
joke around.
So she drove the ambulance.
That's great.
Um, just tell her to write tome, we'll figure it out.
You know, I'm joking.
But no, I think that that'sexactly where my passion is also
about.
Like I love working my firstresponder people, but I think
it's important to understandthat for me, I really think that
we need to start at the academylevel.
(01:49):
And when they come in, you know,when you train a paramedic EMT,
police, law enforcement officialof any kind, I think that
starting about, you know, Ithink that now in Massachusetts,
we do a whole 24 to 40 hours,depending on which academy, to
talk about mental health.
On a six-month level, that's adrop in the bucket at best for
(02:10):
someone that you're gonna dealwith pretty much daily.
But how do we what can we do toget people trained on this?
Because I think to me it's soimportant to get to that point.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Well, in the academy, we need to, you know,
just cut to the chase and say,look, you're signing up for a
career that is gonna expose youto very traumatic events and
it's gonna bring up emotions foryou.
And then we can list, you know,the heavy hitters.
You know, if you attend a childdeath, that's probably one of
the worst.
(02:40):
There's gonna be obviouslythere's gonna be homicides,
there's gonna be suicides, thereare gonna be gruesome automobile
accidents, you know, you'regonna walk in, there's gonna be
domestic situations wheresomeone is really beat up, and
clearly there's a bad dynamichere that's been ongoing.
So, you know, they have to beaware that they're gonna be
(03:02):
exposed to that and that it'snot even a matter of like if
you're gonna need help or you'regonna need therapy, but when
you're gonna need help or you'regonna need therapy.
And, you know, to definitelybecome familiar with your peer
support team once you get toyour agency, you know, after you
go through, you know, yourinitial training and whatnot,
ask about it if they haven'teven, if they haven't, you know,
(03:24):
introduced the concept to youthat there's a peer support
team.
But every department should alsohave like a list of vetted
therapists.
And so that's one reason why wewrote this book, Helping the
Helpers, is, you know, to trainmore people to this looks kind
of fuzzy.
Let me do this.
Helping the helpers.
(03:45):
The clinician's guide to firstresponder mental wellness, okay?
You know, what it takes tobecome a clinician that works
with these populations.
And so you can't just be aregular therapist and think that
you're gonna sit down, sitacross from a police officer and
be able to earn their trust.
That is your first hurdle rightthere.
(04:07):
They can see through you.
They know if you're bullshittingor pretending that you know what
they're talking about.
They're gonna just see rightthrough that, and that'll be
your last session.
So we wrote this book because wefelt that it was like a major
gaping hole in clinicians'guides.
And there definitely needs to besomething like this.
So we're very proud that it cameout last year.
(04:30):
It is a reflection of acompilation of many of our
podcast interviews that we did,and I think it came out really
good.
So, first and foremost, we needmore clinicians that are trained
to work with these populations.
Yes, it should start in theacademy of just giving people
the heads up that you are gonnabe exposed to stuff that's gonna
(04:52):
rock your world and you're gonnalay awake at night some nights.
It's just gonna happen.
And so if you think that becauseyou're young and it's it's it's
like the guys with 15, 20 years,that those are the ones that
have been worn down and theirbucket is full.
No, because you're gonna seethings for the first time.
And before you get used to likewhat it's like to go to a car
(05:13):
accident, you're gonna have tohave your first gruesome car
accident.
And that's probably gonna searitself on your mind.
And so, you know, realizing thatthat's gonna take a toll like on
you, on your sleep, also on yourrelationships.
It's gonna affect how you relateto your significant others.
If you end up having children,it's gonna, you know, you're
gonna be super concerned aboutbad things happening to your
(05:36):
kids.
You know, paramedics, you know,you know, really are on top of
their kids to wear the helmetand whatnot.
Now you're the your kid isfeeling like he's the only one
that has to wear the helmet inthe neighborhood because my my
father and my mother is a damnparamedic.
You know, this is gonna affectall your relationships.
SPEAKER_02 (05:56):
So well, you know, you said so many good points.
I was writing them all down asfast as I can because I loved
your points.
The the the thing that I that Iappreciate the most is yeah, we
need more vetted therapists todo the job.
I'm gonna throw out somethingthat's happened to me recently
about a vetted therapist, and Imean I say that in very light
mood, and if that personrecognizes themselves, I didn't
(06:18):
share your name.
They told me that they were anexpert because their uncle was
in a firefighter.
Oh said, Oh, how often did yousee your uncle?
Oh, I'd see him, you know, majorholidays.
I don't know how that vets youto be a first responder.
And that person was extremely,extremely, extremely upset about
my upset about your judgment,but there's a lot of truth to
(06:38):
that, Steve.
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
And not only did was I raised by a Marine and a
police officer, I was told bynow a very good friend of mine,
deputy chief, retired from alocal fire department.
He's like, You got to go toCitizen Police Academy.
Their department is having acitizen police academy.
It's 17 weeks, and they're gonnago through everything that
(06:59):
police have to learn.
And it's at your level, right?
We even did firearms, we were,you know, we we were on the
range, like we, you know, we welearned about SWAT, we learned
about law, and just it waseye-opening, right?
So, and then when I was invitedto become clinical supervisor of
that department's peer supportteam, I wrote with every member
(07:23):
of that peer support team, evenin midnight because there was
somebody who was on MIDS, andthere was somebody who was a
detective.
So I spent a couple of hourswith that detective up in the in
the DB, and I he showed me aredacted warrant.
Many, many, many pages.
You think, oh yeah, you just geta warrant.
No, that detective has to workon that for hours, sometimes
(07:46):
days, in order for it to beworded so that the judge says,
Yes, you can serve it.
SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
So that goes through the hands of the DA, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (07:55):
And you know, it's just policing is so much more
than what you as a civilian orwhat I as a civilian, even as a
daughter of a cop, everrealized.
So ride-alongs, do ride-alongs,ask questions.
And then I did the same thingfor fire.
So that deputy chief had me ridewith him, you know, being first
on scene to fires, you know, inhis vehicle.
(08:18):
And then the engines show up andhe stages them, he tells them
what to do.
I mean, I learned so much.
I I had dinner with thefirefighters, you know, and I
listened to their conversation,which was very interesting.
And, you know, you just you endup seeing the difference between
fire culture and police culture,and how, you know, they get to
hang out with each other andtalk about bad calls in the fire
(08:41):
department.
But in the police department,they go, they go from suicide,
and now they've got, you know,complaint because a, you know, a
neighbor says that theneighbor's dog is pooping in
their yard, right?
And so, you know, going from onehorrible thing to something that
just seems so petty and havingto switch gears, right?
(09:01):
And and and watching a policeofficer go through that and they
ride alone in in the town that Ior the city that I was going.
They ride alone.
And so they go from one shittycall and then they're alone and
they're going to this, whatseems to be why are you so upset
over this?
When I just came from, you know,a woman who just her husband
(09:22):
came home and her found herhusband had killed himself, you
know, and having to make thatmental adjustment, right?
And so even EMS, there's someoneis driving the ambulance and the
other person is in the back withthe patient, right?
And then after the call, asthey're restocking the
ambulance, perhaps cleaning outif there were any bodily fluids,
(09:43):
they can talk about that call,right?
And there's there's a beginningof a processing.
Police are in a whole different,it's a whole different uh way of
them having to deal with withtrauma.
SPEAKER_02 (09:55):
I think that that's exactly what I was gonna share
because exactly being alone is awhole different ball game than
you know, in Massachusetts, youend up with at least a team of
three or four when one officerand you know, paramedic or EMT
or firefighter or some combo offour.
And that's makes a hugedifference because you can
process.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Sometimes you don't have time to process because
you're not in the city that Ithat I help.
They're they're on to the nextcall, they don't have time to
stand around and process it.
SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
But even with ambulances, you might have a few
in a row, but you still have thesame experience, so you can talk
about it.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
As you're driving, you could talk process the last
call, or as you're cleaning,because at some point you have
to restock the ambulance andclean it out because it has to
be HIPAA compliant, right?
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
And I think that that's what I mean is that
police go from one call toanother.
And the one thing I will neverforget, and this is because of
my experience also doing thetherapy with them.
Do not forget about yourcivilian dispatch or even your
sworn-in dispatch.
They go from one call toanother, and again, I uh I I go,
I think about that Chicago call.
(11:01):
I've talked about it on thepodcast before, about knowing
that you got your officers onside on scene, sorry, and you
hear and then the phone clicksoff, and then five seconds
later, 911, what's youremergency?
And you need to do that as adispatcher.
You don't have time to go, youknow what?
I'm gonna go process thatoutside of here.
(11:22):
So I tell people, like thedispatchers, which civilian or
not, in Massachusetts, there's alittle mix, mostly, mostly
civilian.
Okay, your dispatchers typicallyalso grow through hell.
SPEAKER_01 (11:33):
Oh, absolutely.
You know, they they don't haveclosure necessarily because of
HIPAA, right?
They may want to know how didthat uh baby choking at four,
you know, four-month SIDS baby,like how did that go?
You know, because it oftentimesthey have families themselves
and and they may not ever findout what what happened, what was
the outcome.
The other thing is they'resitting, right?
(11:55):
And so they can't move aroundmuch.
They might be able to get up andgo to the bathroom and the other
dispatcher can cover the phone,but you know, all of that is
going into their headphones,right?
And then it's it's like ripplingthrough their body and they're
sitting.
And one one thing that is a factis that the rate of of obesity
among among dispatchers is isvery high.
(12:19):
I think a lot of them will eatin order to self-soothe because
they can't move around and getthat energy out, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
It's not like you can go for a jog afterwards, no,
you know, or even between calls.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
You're you're already like jacked up from one
call, and now it's it's stirringinside your body, and now you
have to answer the 911 call uhphone again.
And then there's a lot of stupidcalls, right?
And like the dog, yeah, the dogis Canadian geese have pooped
all over my lawn.
I want someone to do somethingabout it.
Well, guess what?
That's not a 911 call, but thethe dispatchers have to deal
(12:55):
with that, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (12:56):
Yeah, stupid Canadians.
Don't worry, I'm Canadian, I cansay that.
But I think the other part toois realizing that when you talk
about the changes that needs tobe done, not only training in
the front end, I think that theone that people, and I you know,
I'm sure you talk about it alsoin helping the helpers.
I really feel that we need toget the people who are in the
(13:17):
leadership mo role to startthinking about it.
Because, you know, some of theguys would go, like, oh, I
survived 20 years, why can'tthis guy take it?
Because he's different.
Well, why can't she take it?
She's a woman.
No, it has nothing to do withbeing a woman or man.
Some people have differentresponses.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
How about this?
How about the number of officersthat retire early or that end up
with uh really bad alcoholproblems and or take their own
lives?
Isn't that enough to kind ofjustify that perhaps we should
we need we need to have adminsupporting wellness initiatives?
(13:53):
Hello?
SPEAKER_02 (13:54):
And I think that that's why I say getting the
chiefs and the leadership to buyinto the process.
Absolutely is it's so important,right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
You can't have officers afraid of using your
resources because they're afraidthat they're gonna be judged or
deemed deficient or a liability.
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
And I think it goes back to a little bit of what you
talked about, vetted therapistsand people being, you know, able
to handle that.
And what I mean by that is I'vehad a few people, I'm not a
doctor like you, Stacy, butsometimes people are like, you
know, can you just check on thisguy?
Is he gonna be okay?
And most of the time I can makea judgment call.
Obviously, if they need apsychiatrist or psychologist,
more than happy to do that.
(14:32):
But I've had many, like at leasttwo chiefs call me, like, are
you sure?
I'm like, Well, okay, why do youask that?
They're like, Well, I don'tknow.
And I'm like, okay, so let meexplain to you something from a
civilian perspective.
If I thought this guy wasdangerous in the community or
this gal, understand that I livein the community, I have kids in
(14:52):
the community, I have friends inthe community.
Do you think for one iota of asecond I'd fucking put their
lives in danger with some guy orsome gal I don't think that
should get back in?
Wake the fuck up, Chief.
Yeah, there's also this doubtthat comes from sometimes
leadership because not allleadership, I get that, but
there's a doubt that comes like,Well, are you sure?
Well, then don't fucking sendthem to me.
And why are you asking me that?
(15:12):
Maybe you have your doubts.
That's great.
I cleared them.
You decide what you fucking dowith that.
Just a quick break, guys.
I'm gonna talk about a newproduct that I really like.
I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
Uh, this episode is gonna besupported by Deemed Fit.
Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
(15:35):
leisure brand.
And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
support different causes.
I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
responders, our nonprofits,their name to uh DEMFit, and I
know they're talking to them.
They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
mental health for firstresponders.
And if you go there right nowand you buy anything, including
(15:57):
the mental health support stuff,uh use the code R D A 15.
That's right, R D A 15, to get15% off on any products that you
get.
Again, it's called RDA 15.
Go to deanfit.com, D-E-E,M-E-D-F-I-T.com, and enjoy 15%
(16:17):
off at checkout to save.
Now, right back to the episode.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
Right.
But it we're talking about humanbehavior too.
We don't have a crystal ball.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
You don't?
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
You know, we have we have our list of like things
that we can check off withregard to suicidality or
homicidality, but somethingcould happen between now and
when they go home that sets themoff.
And now they they want to followthrough with killing themselves
or they want to go and punch,you know, the guy who's sleeping
with their wife out.
unknown (16:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
You know, like I can't control everything that
they're going to come acrossbetween, you know, now and the
next session that I have withthem.
I can say, call me if somethingcomes up.
I want to know about it beforeyou do anything rash, right?
But I can't control that person.
SPEAKER_02 (17:07):
And I think that I also talk about situational
stuff.
And what I mean by that is thisI worked parole for many years,
and I used to do uh for inMassachusetts, Murder 2 is no
intent to kill originally, butyou did kill someone, yeah, type
of thing.
It's not quite manslaughter, butkind of.
And I would work with thoseguys, and one of the things I
would always explain to somepeople, like, aren't you scared?
(17:28):
Because I'm a therapist, Ishould be scared, right?
And I'm like, No, like, why not?
I said, because if you hear thecircumstances, you understand
that based on circumstances, asometimes you know, what happens
happens, and we can't judgewhat's going to happen in 10
minutes, never mind two hours,three hours.
Right.
You know, you go home and you'rehappy and life is good, and then
(17:50):
you cat you catch your wife withyou know that's getting beaten
up severely by some other man,you pick up or woman, it could
be a woman, and then you beatthe living crap out of them to
the point where they stopbreathing.
Yes, are you responsible forwhat you did?
Well, you kind of did it out ofpassion, but yeah, you did kill
someone, but they're notdangerous, they were
circumstantial.
(18:10):
And what I when I used to writethese reports for parole and
probation, I would always writeas of right now, we're doing the
interview at 1202 today, clientis safe.
Correct, and then after that,people would be like, But I
can't predict the future.
If my wand's upstairs, it's notdown here.
I can't get my wand right now.
But if you can predict humanbehavior 15 minutes down the
(18:32):
road, you're a better humanbeing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
And I understand chiefs want to know is this is
this officer safe?
But like as of yeah, 1203 now,uh, you know, in this
conversation, he's you know, hechecks all the boxes for safety.
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
And I think that that's what the other part, too,
with some of the therapists.
I feel sometimes it's explainingto them that you're talking
about moment to moment.
SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:54):
And sometimes some therapists are like, no, they
were stable last week.
Like I was stable five minutesago, I might be unstable now.
It doesn't mean anything, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
Right.
And especially if there'ssubstances involved because that
can change on a dime.
SPEAKER_02 (19:11):
I think that we underestimate how much gambling,
sex addiction is playing a hugefactor ever since they made
DraftKings, and I'm not pickingon DraftKings.
Absolutely, right DraftKingslike, including FanDuel, and I'm
not gonna go through all thecompanies.
There's something about it, likeI I shared this story before on
here, but it's worth saying whenthe person is betting on soccer
(19:33):
at 9 a.m.
because that's when they startin England, and then they're
betting on ping pong from SouthKorea at three o'clock in the
morning, and this is a very truestory.
Yes, that's another$2,500 inthat time.
Yeah, behavior will change, andthat's not that's not something
I can predict.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
Correct, correct.
And interestingly enough, wejust lost a well, he he resigned
as chief from a a citydepartment in Connecticut
because it was found that heused over$80,000 worth of the
department's money to pay offhis gambling debt.
So he once that was discovered,he stepped down and they needed
(20:12):
a new chief.
So it is a problem.
And it's not just line officers,it's we're talking chiefs here.
So it's a big deal.
So can I talk, Steve, a littlebit about you know, the the
second part of this book, Dumpthe Bucket.
One is we've we've alreadycovered it in the previous
interview about how EMDR is likethe most effective tool to use
(20:36):
with with police.
But the other agenda is thatI've always known Wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
Before you go on, you ask me permission, I'm
saying no.
What are we gonna no?
I'm kidding.
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
Look, we could talk about uh the Strait of Home News
if you want.
SPEAKER_02 (20:53):
Oh no, hell no, I'm not talking about it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
All right, all right.
There's any number of topicsthat we could talk about, but I
just figured I'd put in the jokeanyway.
Yeah, that's fine.
No, I I'll roll with that.
But I got concerned because youknow, we have all this money
going into wellness initiatives,right?
Making sure you have a peersupport team, making sure that
you have education for allofficers, line officers, all the
(21:17):
way up supervisors, even commandstaff, about wellness, right?
And the importance of wellness.
And what do we mean by wellness?
And there's a lot of money,there's a lot going into that
right now.
But I have always kind ofsuspected that there is a subset
of police that will not use it.
Okay.
And that is what my researchshowed, right?
(21:40):
So there are particular items onthe ACES questionnaire, adverse
childhood experiencesquestionnaire.
There's only 10 items, but therewere three that were significant
that loaded onto avoidanttendencies and mistrustful
tendencies.
So you could have a stellar peersupport.
Team that people are ravingabout.
(22:02):
You could have command staffthat is cheering for wellness,
right?
Come on, folks, we've got allthese wellness programs.
We want you to take, we've gota, you know, we've got a list of
therapists that have beenvetted, and we have chaplains,
and we have couples therapists,and we have financial
counselors, and it's all on thewebsite.
Just, you know, it's there.
(22:23):
You can go and look at itanonymously, and you can pick a
therapist or you could talk topeer support, and they're not
going to come and report to us.
So use it, right?
And then there's going to bethat subset, and and there's a
direct correlation that my, youknow, beyond the shadow of a
doubt, right?
Because you have to use astatistical analysis, regression
(22:44):
analysis, in order to say thisis not due to chance.
All right.
So of the 177 officers that Igave a survey to, and they they
answered the ACES questionnaireand they filled out a adult
attachment scale.
There are three items on the onthe ACES questionnaire where if
(23:04):
they answered it yes, they weremost likely going to say, I I
have problems, but I am not, I'mgoing to deal with them by
myself.
And that proved what I hadsuspected.
And those are the ones that havea bucket half full already
(23:25):
coming into policing.
And if they went into themilitary and they were in in
combat, now it's two-thirdsfull.
And now they're going to dopolice work.
All right.
So that bucket is going tooverflow pretty early compared
to somebody who had a splendidchildhood.
So the items that are mostsignificant are as follows.
(23:50):
And it doesn't mean if you saidyes to this that that's it,
you're screwed and you're nevergoing to go for help.
I'm just showing a correlation.
There was a tendency.
If you said yes to this, you'reprobably going to bypass peer
support.
And hell no, you're not going tosee a therapist, right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
Can I we're just going to clear up for the
audience in case they know theydon't know.
Correlation does not equatecausation, but in the majority
of the cases, it can be linked.
So there's a huge difference.
When I mean correlation is thatthese two things are linked,
this is what we think it is, butthere is no guarantee that's it.
So sorry to for the the That'sfine.
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
And that needs to say that.
SPEAKER_02 (24:27):
The researcher and me that went to a research
school needs to say that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Absolutely.
Thank you for sharing that,because that's true.
So with that caveat, did youfeel that no one in your family
loved you or thought you wereimportant or special?
Mark, yes, if your family didn'tlook out for each other, feel
close to each other, or supporteach other.
So that one has the mostcorrelation with being
(24:51):
mistrustful and not wanting toget help, like pushing other
people, saying, Yeah, that'sgood for other people, but but I
don't need that.
And what that says is if youdidn't feel like your parents
were there or your guardianswere there for you to support
you, it is very unlikely thatyou're gonna look at your peer
(25:13):
support team or some unknowntherapist that, yes, has been
vetted perhaps by yourdepartment, but you don't know
this person.
So if your own parents let youdown, you're just automatically
assuming that the chaplain andthe and the therapist,
counselor, whoever, they're alsogonna let you down.
SPEAKER_02 (25:32):
Everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
So here's another one.
This so not as strong, but verystrong.
Did a parent or adult in yourhome ever physically hurt you,
resulting in bruises or cuts onyour skin?
Right?
That would be physical abuse.
All right.
And then the other one that isalso correlated with mistrust
and not going to a therapist,but not as strong as the one I
(25:54):
just read or the first one.
Did a parent or adult in yourhome ever swear at you, insult
you, or put you down?
If you answer yes to that.
So that's the that was that'sthe trifecta.
Right.
And a lot there were a number ofofficers of the 177 that
answered all three yes.
It is very unlikely that thoseofficers are going to seek help.
(26:14):
And I'm worried about thoseofficers.
I have not proven, and myresearch is not going to go down
that avenue of are those theones that take their lives
because, you know, or drinkthemselves to death or, you
know, retire early or whatever.
I don't know, but I wouldsuspect that they probably are
the ones.
Because if you look at thesuicide research, the number one
(26:37):
cause, or the again, not cause,but what has been endorsed in
psychological autopsies.
And this is usually the familyand the friends answering yes,
yes, he or she reported that.
Interpersonal difficulties, youknow, so they're really not
getting along with theirsignificant other, right?
And so somebody who comes from achildhood where they didn't feel
(27:01):
cared for by their by theirparents or guardians, they're
likely going to have a difficulttime relating to their
significant other, right?
And if there was physical abuseand and verbal abuse, well,
people are not your go-to whenyou're having a hard time.
Alcohol's probably your go-to,prescription medication, maybe
(27:22):
working out, not you know, sleepis gonna be an issue.
And also these people had hadthey uh endorsed one true and
false item that says, I havetrouble calming down once I get
angry.
SPEAKER_02 (27:35):
Right.
I remember that that area, andit's so important to talk about
those things because you're notgonna trust a human being, and
there's a reason for that.
And the whether again, thevetting stuff about therapists
telling a first responder of anykind, to me anyway, say don't
(27:56):
worry, trust me, is a great wayto be distrusted for the rest of
the session.
SPEAKER_01 (28:00):
It's earned, trust is earned.
The and these individuals tendto be closer to animals, like
they'll have a beloved dog thatthey go home to and they cuddle
with and they feel closer to thedog than they do their
significant other or or theirkids.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:18):
Well, as we come up on time, Stacey, this one I
really fast really enjoyed ourconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
You still gotta set up karaoke.
SPEAKER_02 (28:26):
So yeah, I'm not I'm I'm going.
You tell me where it is, we'llfigure it out.
We'll meet her in Rhode Island.
That way we're on neutral side.
SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
In Rhode Island.
All right, we can meet in RhodeIsland.
I mean, I'll meet, I'llintroduce you to my dad, and
then you'll you'll havecompassion for me.
SPEAKER_02 (28:40):
I have uh an off interview story about that for
you, not about your dad.
I don't know your dad.
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.
Something else that's similar towhat you just talked about,
which um I think you'll relateto.
But how about my audience wantsto relate to you?
So, where do we find you know,dump the bucket?
Where do we find helping thehelp?
SPEAKER_01 (28:59):
Both books, both books are on Amazon.
Yeah, easy to find them.
My website is drstacyraymond.com.
I'm on LinkedIn, just type myname in.
I come up.
I'm on I'm on Instagram too andFacebook, but I don't I don't do
a whole lot with those, but I'mon.
I'm trying to be, you know, upto date socially, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (29:21):
But yeah, I try to do the same, but yeah, I'm
trying.
But no, I think that you know,this is my for my audience.
I didn't read the helping thehelpers, but I'm assuming I'm
gonna get the signature fromyou.
SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
Um you want that, I could send it your way.
SPEAKER_02 (29:33):
This um yeah, I I and if the ambulance driver's
that's worth reading, you know.
I I want to read it because thisis a great idea to help the
helpers.
SPEAKER_01 (29:42):
Yeah, we need more therapists like you and me to
help the these people that areyou know in the line of fire,
you know.
They're they're risking theirlives helping civilians, and
there aren't enough therapiststhat know how to sit with them.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
You forgot one thing to mention.
Watch the podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (30:01):
The podcast is uh responder resilience.
And so you can find all of ourepisodes at respondertv.com.
SPEAKER_02 (30:10):
All right.
So I wanted people to go tothat.
We're gonna do karaoke in RhodeIsland.
For my audience, thank you.
I hope you enjoyed this becauseI do did enjoy it.
I hope uh you go see get uh youknow Stacy's book on Amazon.
And otherwise, I look forward toseeing all of you at the next
episode.
SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(30:53):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:29):
And just like magic, we're dressed the same exact
way, but it's a week later.
I don't know.
It's a week later.
Wow.
Welcome again to ResilienceDevelopment in Action to Dr.
Stacey Raymond.
We talked about EMDR the lastepisode, but I want to focus on
something that's meant a lot tome too.
And I see that it means a lot toyou too.
So that's why I'm excited aboutthis, too.
You we're going to talk aboutyour book, Helping the Helpers,
(00:51):
particularly.
I think that's very helpful fortherapists to look at.
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
I should probably show it, right?
There it is, Helping theHelpers.
And it's co-authored with DavidDashinger.
He's a retired fire lieutenant.
And there's Bonnie Rummely.
And she has been an EMT sincethe age of 17.
So she did it for most of herlife, but she's a clinical
social worker now.
So the three of us put thistogether based on the what we
(01:16):
called the master class series,where we interviewed clinicians
working with various branches ofpublic safety.
And we have a podcast as wellcalled Responder Resilience.
SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
Well, I'd love to be on there too, but I was going to
joke around.
So she drove the ambulance.
That's great.
Um, just tell her to write tome, we'll figure it out.
You know, I'm joking.
But no, I think that that'sexactly where my passion is also
about.
Like I love working my firstresponder people, but I think
it's important to understandthat for me, I really think that
we need to start at the academylevel.
(01:49):
And when they come in, you know,when you train a paramedic EMT,
police, law enforcement officialof any kind, I think that
starting about, you know, Ithink that now in Massachusetts,
we do a whole 24 to 40 hours,depending on which academy, to
talk about mental health.
On a six-month level, that's adrop in the bucket at best for
(02:10):
someone that you're gonna dealwith pretty much daily.
But how do we what can we do toget people trained on this?
Because I think to me it's soimportant to get to that point.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Well, in the academy, we need to, you know,
just cut to the chase and say,look, you're signing up for a
career that is gonna expose youto very traumatic events and
it's gonna bring up emotions foryou.
And then we can list, you know,the heavy hitters.
You know, if you attend a childdeath, that's probably one of
the worst.
(02:40):
There's gonna be obviouslythere's gonna be homicides,
there's gonna be suicides, thereare gonna be gruesome automobile
accidents, you know, you'regonna walk in, there's gonna be
domestic situations wheresomeone is really beat up, and
clearly there's a bad dynamichere that's been ongoing.
So, you know, they have to beaware that they're gonna be
(03:02):
exposed to that and that it'snot even a matter of like if
you're gonna need help or you'regonna need therapy, but when
you're gonna need help or you'regonna need therapy.
And, you know, to definitelybecome familiar with your peer
support team once you get toyour agency, you know, after you
go through, you know, yourinitial training and whatnot,
ask about it if they haven'teven, if they haven't, you know,
(03:24):
introduced the concept to youthat there's a peer support
team.
But every department should alsohave like a list of vetted
therapists.
And so that's one reason why wewrote this book, Helping the
Helpers, is, you know, to trainmore people to this looks kind
of fuzzy.
Let me do this.
Helping the helpers.
(03:45):
The clinician's guide to firstresponder mental wellness, okay?
You know, what it takes tobecome a clinician that works
with these populations.
And so you can't just be aregular therapist and think that
you're gonna sit down, sitacross from a police officer and
be able to earn their trust.
That is your first hurdle rightthere.
(04:07):
They can see through you.
They know if you're bullshittingor pretending that you know what
they're talking about.
They're gonna just see rightthrough that, and that'll be
your last session.
So we wrote this book because wefelt that it was like a major
gaping hole in clinicians'guides.
And there definitely needs to besomething like this.
So we're very proud that it cameout last year.
(04:30):
It is a reflection of acompilation of many of our
podcast interviews that we did,and I think it came out really
good.
So, first and foremost, we needmore clinicians that are trained
to work with these populations.
Yes, it should start in theacademy of just giving people
the heads up that you are gonnabe exposed to stuff that's gonna
(04:52):
rock your world and you're gonnalay awake at night some nights.
It's just gonna happen.
And so if you think that becauseyou're young and it's it's it's
like the guys with 15, 20 years,that those are the ones that
have been worn down and theirbucket is full.
No, because you're gonna seethings for the first time.
And before you get used to likewhat it's like to go to a car
(05:13):
accident, you're gonna have tohave your first gruesome car
accident.
And that's probably gonna searitself on your mind.
And so, you know, realizing thatthat's gonna take a toll like on
you, on your sleep, also on yourrelationships.
It's gonna affect how you relateto your significant others.
If you end up having children,it's gonna, you know, you're
gonna be super concerned aboutbad things happening to your
(05:36):
kids.
You know, paramedics, you know,you know, really are on top of
their kids to wear the helmetand whatnot.
Now you're the your kid isfeeling like he's the only one
that has to wear the helmet inthe neighborhood because my my
father and my mother is a damnparamedic.
You know, this is gonna affectall your relationships.
SPEAKER_02 (05:56):
So well, you know, you said so many good points.
I was writing them all down asfast as I can because I loved
your points.
The the the thing that I that Iappreciate the most is yeah, we
need more vetted therapists todo the job.
I'm gonna throw out somethingthat's happened to me recently
about a vetted therapist, and Imean I say that in very light
mood, and if that personrecognizes themselves, I didn't
(06:18):
share your name.
They told me that they were anexpert because their uncle was
in a firefighter.
Oh said, Oh, how often did yousee your uncle?
Oh, I'd see him, you know, majorholidays.
I don't know how that vets youto be a first responder.
And that person was extremely,extremely, extremely upset about
my upset about your judgment,but there's a lot of truth to
(06:38):
that, Steve.
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
And not only did was I raised by a Marine and a
police officer, I was told bynow a very good friend of mine,
deputy chief, retired from alocal fire department.
He's like, You got to go toCitizen Police Academy.
Their department is having acitizen police academy.
It's 17 weeks, and they're gonnago through everything that
(06:59):
police have to learn.
And it's at your level, right?
We even did firearms, we were,you know, we we were on the
range, like we, you know, we welearned about SWAT, we learned
about law, and just it waseye-opening, right?
So, and then when I was invitedto become clinical supervisor of
that department's peer supportteam, I wrote with every member
(07:23):
of that peer support team, evenin midnight because there was
somebody who was on MIDS, andthere was somebody who was a
detective.
So I spent a couple of hourswith that detective up in the in
the DB, and I he showed me aredacted warrant.
Many, many, many pages.
You think, oh yeah, you just geta warrant.
No, that detective has to workon that for hours, sometimes
(07:46):
days, in order for it to beworded so that the judge says,
Yes, you can serve it.
SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
So that goes through the hands of the DA, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (07:55):
And you know, it's just policing is so much more
than what you as a civilian orwhat I as a civilian, even as a
daughter of a cop, everrealized.
So ride-alongs, do ride-alongs,ask questions.
And then I did the same thingfor fire.
So that deputy chief had me ridewith him, you know, being first
on scene to fires, you know, inhis vehicle.
(08:18):
And then the engines show up andhe stages them, he tells them
what to do.
I mean, I learned so much.
I I had dinner with thefirefighters, you know, and I
listened to their conversation,which was very interesting.
And, you know, you just you endup seeing the difference between
fire culture and police culture,and how, you know, they get to
hang out with each other andtalk about bad calls in the fire
(08:41):
department.
But in the police department,they go, they go from suicide,
and now they've got, you know,complaint because a, you know, a
neighbor says that theneighbor's dog is pooping in
their yard, right?
And so, you know, going from onehorrible thing to something that
just seems so petty and havingto switch gears, right?
(09:01):
And and and watching a policeofficer go through that and they
ride alone in in the town that Ior the city that I was going.
They ride alone.
And so they go from one shittycall and then they're alone and
they're going to this, whatseems to be why are you so upset
over this?
When I just came from, you know,a woman who just her husband
(09:22):
came home and her found herhusband had killed himself, you
know, and having to make thatmental adjustment, right?
And so even EMS, there's someoneis driving the ambulance and the
other person is in the back withthe patient, right?
And then after the call, asthey're restocking the
ambulance, perhaps cleaning outif there were any bodily fluids,
(09:43):
they can talk about that call,right?
And there's there's a beginningof a processing.
Police are in a whole different,it's a whole different uh way of
them having to deal with withtrauma.
SPEAKER_02 (09:55):
I think that that's exactly what I was gonna share
because exactly being alone is awhole different ball game than
you know, in Massachusetts, youend up with at least a team of
three or four when one officerand you know, paramedic or EMT
or firefighter or some combo offour.
And that's makes a hugedifference because you can
process.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Sometimes you don't have time to process because
you're not in the city that Ithat I help.
They're they're on to the nextcall, they don't have time to
stand around and process it.
SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
But even with ambulances, you might have a few
in a row, but you still have thesame experience, so you can talk
about it.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
As you're driving, you could talk process the last
call, or as you're cleaning,because at some point you have
to restock the ambulance andclean it out because it has to
be HIPAA compliant, right?
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
And I think that that's what I mean is that
police go from one call toanother.
And the one thing I will neverforget, and this is because of
my experience also doing thetherapy with them.
Do not forget about yourcivilian dispatch or even your
sworn-in dispatch.
They go from one call toanother, and again, I uh I I go,
I think about that Chicago call.
(11:01):
I've talked about it on thepodcast before, about knowing
that you got your officers onside on scene, sorry, and you
hear and then the phone clicksoff, and then five seconds
later, 911, what's youremergency?
And you need to do that as adispatcher.
You don't have time to go, youknow what?
I'm gonna go process thatoutside of here.
(11:22):
So I tell people, like thedispatchers, which civilian or
not, in Massachusetts, there's alittle mix, mostly, mostly
civilian.
Okay, your dispatchers typicallyalso grow through hell.
SPEAKER_01 (11:33):
Oh, absolutely.
You know, they they don't haveclosure necessarily because of
HIPAA, right?
They may want to know how didthat uh baby choking at four,
you know, four-month SIDS baby,like how did that go?
You know, because it oftentimesthey have families themselves
and and they may not ever findout what what happened, what was
the outcome.
The other thing is they'resitting, right?
(11:55):
And so they can't move aroundmuch.
They might be able to get up andgo to the bathroom and the other
dispatcher can cover the phone,but you know, all of that is
going into their headphones,right?
And then it's it's like ripplingthrough their body and they're
sitting.
And one one thing that is a factis that the rate of of obesity
among among dispatchers is isvery high.
(12:19):
I think a lot of them will eatin order to self-soothe because
they can't move around and getthat energy out, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
It's not like you can go for a jog afterwards, no,
you know, or even between calls.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
You're you're already like jacked up from one
call, and now it's it's stirringinside your body, and now you
have to answer the 911 call uhphone again.
And then there's a lot of stupidcalls, right?
And like the dog, yeah, the dogis Canadian geese have pooped
all over my lawn.
I want someone to do somethingabout it.
Well, guess what?
That's not a 911 call, but thethe dispatchers have to deal
(12:55):
with that, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (12:56):
Yeah, stupid Canadians.
Don't worry, I'm Canadian, I cansay that.
But I think the other part toois realizing that when you talk
about the changes that needs tobe done, not only training in
the front end, I think that theone that people, and I you know,
I'm sure you talk about it alsoin helping the helpers.
I really feel that we need toget the people who are in the
(13:17):
leadership mo role to startthinking about it.
Because, you know, some of theguys would go, like, oh, I
survived 20 years, why can'tthis guy take it?
Because he's different.
Well, why can't she take it?
She's a woman.
No, it has nothing to do withbeing a woman or man.
Some people have differentresponses.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
How about this?
How about the number of officersthat retire early or that end up
with uh really bad alcoholproblems and or take their own
lives?
Isn't that enough to kind ofjustify that perhaps we should
we need we need to have adminsupporting wellness initiatives?
(13:53):
Hello?
SPEAKER_02 (13:54):
And I think that that's why I say getting the
chiefs and the leadership to buyinto the process.
Absolutely is it's so important,right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
You can't have officers afraid of using your
resources because they're afraidthat they're gonna be judged or
deemed deficient or a liability.
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
And I think it goes back to a little bit of what you
talked about, vetted therapistsand people being, you know, able
to handle that.
And what I mean by that is I'vehad a few people, I'm not a
doctor like you, Stacy, butsometimes people are like, you
know, can you just check on thisguy?
Is he gonna be okay?
And most of the time I can makea judgment call.
Obviously, if they need apsychiatrist or psychologist,
more than happy to do that.
(14:32):
But I've had many, like at leasttwo chiefs call me, like, are
you sure?
I'm like, Well, okay, why do youask that?
They're like, Well, I don'tknow.
And I'm like, okay, so let meexplain to you something from a
civilian perspective.
If I thought this guy wasdangerous in the community or
this gal, understand that I livein the community, I have kids in
(14:52):
the community, I have friends inthe community.
Do you think for one iota of asecond I'd fucking put their
lives in danger with some guy orsome gal I don't think that
should get back in?
Wake the fuck up, Chief.
Yeah, there's also this doubtthat comes from sometimes
leadership because not allleadership, I get that, but
there's a doubt that comes like,Well, are you sure?
Well, then don't fucking sendthem to me.
And why are you asking me that?
(15:12):
Maybe you have your doubts.
That's great.
I cleared them.
You decide what you fucking dowith that.
Just a quick break, guys.
I'm gonna talk about a newproduct that I really like.
I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
Uh, this episode is gonna besupported by Deemed Fit.
Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
(15:35):
leisure brand.
And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
support different causes.
I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
responders, our nonprofits,their name to uh DEMFit, and I
know they're talking to them.
They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
mental health for firstresponders.
And if you go there right nowand you buy anything, including
(15:57):
the mental health support stuff,uh use the code R D A 15.
That's right, R D A 15, to get15% off on any products that you
get.
Again, it's called RDA 15.
Go to deanfit.com, D-E-E,M-E-D-F-I-T.com, and enjoy 15%
(16:17):
off at checkout to save.
Now, right back to the episode.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
Right.
But it we're talking about humanbehavior too.
We don't have a crystal ball.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
You don't?
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
You know, we have we have our list of like things
that we can check off withregard to suicidality or
homicidality, but somethingcould happen between now and
when they go home that sets themoff.
And now they they want to followthrough with killing themselves
or they want to go and punch,you know, the guy who's sleeping
with their wife out.
unknown (16:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
You know, like I can't control everything that
they're going to come acrossbetween, you know, now and the
next session that I have withthem.
I can say, call me if somethingcomes up.
I want to know about it beforeyou do anything rash, right?
But I can't control that person.
SPEAKER_02 (17:07):
And I think that I also talk about situational
stuff.
And what I mean by that is thisI worked parole for many years,
and I used to do uh for inMassachusetts, Murder 2 is no
intent to kill originally, butyou did kill someone, yeah, type
of thing.
It's not quite manslaughter, butkind of.
And I would work with thoseguys, and one of the things I
would always explain to somepeople, like, aren't you scared?
(17:28):
Because I'm a therapist, Ishould be scared, right?
And I'm like, No, like, why not?
I said, because if you hear thecircumstances, you understand
that based on circumstances, asometimes you know, what happens
happens, and we can't judgewhat's going to happen in 10
minutes, never mind two hours,three hours.
Right.
You know, you go home and you'rehappy and life is good, and then
(17:50):
you cat you catch your wife withyou know that's getting beaten
up severely by some other man,you pick up or woman, it could
be a woman, and then you beatthe living crap out of them to
the point where they stopbreathing.
Yes, are you responsible forwhat you did?
Well, you kind of did it out ofpassion, but yeah, you did kill
someone, but they're notdangerous, they were
circumstantial.
(18:10):
And what I when I used to writethese reports for parole and
probation, I would always writeas of right now, we're doing the
interview at 1202 today, clientis safe.
Correct, and then after that,people would be like, But I
can't predict the future.
If my wand's upstairs, it's notdown here.
I can't get my wand right now.
But if you can predict humanbehavior 15 minutes down the
(18:32):
road, you're a better humanbeing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
And I understand chiefs want to know is this is
this officer safe?
But like as of yeah, 1203 now,uh, you know, in this
conversation, he's you know, hechecks all the boxes for safety.
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
And I think that that's what the other part, too,
with some of the therapists.
I feel sometimes it's explainingto them that you're talking
about moment to moment.
SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:54):
And sometimes some therapists are like, no, they
were stable last week.
Like I was stable five minutesago, I might be unstable now.
It doesn't mean anything, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
Right.
And especially if there'ssubstances involved because that
can change on a dime.
SPEAKER_02 (19:11):
I think that we underestimate how much gambling,
sex addiction is playing a hugefactor ever since they made
DraftKings, and I'm not pickingon DraftKings.
Absolutely, right DraftKingslike, including FanDuel, and I'm
not gonna go through all thecompanies.
There's something about it, likeI I shared this story before on
here, but it's worth saying whenthe person is betting on soccer
(19:33):
at 9 a.m.
because that's when they startin England, and then they're
betting on ping pong from SouthKorea at three o'clock in the
morning, and this is a very truestory.
Yes, that's another$2,500 inthat time.
Yeah, behavior will change, andthat's not that's not something
I can predict.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
Correct, correct.
And interestingly enough, wejust lost a well, he he resigned
as chief from a a citydepartment in Connecticut
because it was found that heused over$80,000 worth of the
department's money to pay offhis gambling debt.
So he once that was discovered,he stepped down and they needed
(20:12):
a new chief.
So it is a problem.
And it's not just line officers,it's we're talking chiefs here.
So it's a big deal.
So can I talk, Steve, a littlebit about you know, the the
second part of this book, Dumpthe Bucket.
One is we've we've alreadycovered it in the previous
interview about how EMDR is likethe most effective tool to use
(20:36):
with with police.
But the other agenda is thatI've always known Wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
Before you go on, you ask me permission, I'm
saying no.
What are we gonna no?
I'm kidding.
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
Look, we could talk about uh the Strait of Home News
if you want.
SPEAKER_02 (20:53):
Oh no, hell no, I'm not talking about it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
All right, all right.
There's any number of topicsthat we could talk about, but I
just figured I'd put in the jokeanyway.
Yeah, that's fine.
No, I I'll roll with that.
But I got concerned because youknow, we have all this money
going into wellness initiatives,right?
Making sure you have a peersupport team, making sure that
you have education for allofficers, line officers, all the
(21:17):
way up supervisors, even commandstaff, about wellness, right?
And the importance of wellness.
And what do we mean by wellness?
And there's a lot of money,there's a lot going into that
right now.
But I have always kind ofsuspected that there is a subset
of police that will not use it.
Okay.
And that is what my researchshowed, right?
(21:40):
So there are particular items onthe ACES questionnaire, adverse
childhood experiencesquestionnaire.
There's only 10 items, but therewere three that were significant
that loaded onto avoidanttendencies and mistrustful
tendencies.
So you could have a stellar peersupport.
Team that people are ravingabout.
(22:02):
You could have command staffthat is cheering for wellness,
right?
Come on, folks, we've got allthese wellness programs.
We want you to take, we've gota, you know, we've got a list of
therapists that have beenvetted, and we have chaplains,
and we have couples therapists,and we have financial
counselors, and it's all on thewebsite.
Just, you know, it's there.
(22:23):
You can go and look at itanonymously, and you can pick a
therapist or you could talk topeer support, and they're not
going to come and report to us.
So use it, right?
And then there's going to bethat subset, and and there's a
direct correlation that my, youknow, beyond the shadow of a
doubt, right?
Because you have to use astatistical analysis, regression
(22:44):
analysis, in order to say thisis not due to chance.
All right.
So of the 177 officers that Igave a survey to, and they they
answered the ACES questionnaireand they filled out a adult
attachment scale.
There are three items on the onthe ACES questionnaire where if
(23:04):
they answered it yes, they weremost likely going to say, I I
have problems, but I am not, I'mgoing to deal with them by
myself.
And that proved what I hadsuspected.
And those are the ones that havea bucket half full already
(23:25):
coming into policing.
And if they went into themilitary and they were in in
combat, now it's two-thirdsfull.
And now they're going to dopolice work.
All right.
So that bucket is going tooverflow pretty early compared
to somebody who had a splendidchildhood.
So the items that are mostsignificant are as follows.
(23:50):
And it doesn't mean if you saidyes to this that that's it,
you're screwed and you're nevergoing to go for help.
I'm just showing a correlation.
There was a tendency.
If you said yes to this, you'reprobably going to bypass peer
support.
And hell no, you're not going tosee a therapist, right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
Can I we're just going to clear up for the
audience in case they know theydon't know.
Correlation does not equatecausation, but in the majority
of the cases, it can be linked.
So there's a huge difference.
When I mean correlation is thatthese two things are linked,
this is what we think it is, butthere is no guarantee that's it.
So sorry to for the the That'sfine.
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
And that needs to say that.
SPEAKER_02 (24:27):
The researcher and me that went to a research
school needs to say that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Absolutely.
Thank you for sharing that,because that's true.
So with that caveat, did youfeel that no one in your family
loved you or thought you wereimportant or special?
Mark, yes, if your family didn'tlook out for each other, feel
close to each other, or supporteach other.
So that one has the mostcorrelation with being
(24:51):
mistrustful and not wanting toget help, like pushing other
people, saying, Yeah, that'sgood for other people, but but I
don't need that.
And what that says is if youdidn't feel like your parents
were there or your guardianswere there for you to support
you, it is very unlikely thatyou're gonna look at your peer
(25:13):
support team or some unknowntherapist that, yes, has been
vetted perhaps by yourdepartment, but you don't know
this person.
So if your own parents let youdown, you're just automatically
assuming that the chaplain andthe and the therapist,
counselor, whoever, they're alsogonna let you down.
SPEAKER_02 (25:32):
Everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (25:32):
So here's another one.
This so not as strong, but verystrong.
Did a parent or adult in yourhome ever physically hurt you,
resulting in bruises or cuts onyour skin?
Right?
That would be physical abuse.
All right.
And then the other one that isalso correlated with mistrust
and not going to a therapist,but not as strong as the one I
(25:54):
just read or the first one.
Did a parent or adult in yourhome ever swear at you, insult
you, or put you down?
If you answer yes to that.
So that's the that was that'sthe trifecta.
Right.
And a lot there were a number ofofficers of the 177 that
answered all three yes.
It is very unlikely that thoseofficers are going to seek help.
(26:14):
And I'm worried about thoseofficers.
I have not proven, and myresearch is not going to go down
that avenue of are those theones that take their lives
because, you know, or drinkthemselves to death or, you
know, retire early or whatever.
I don't know, but I wouldsuspect that they probably are
the ones.
Because if you look at thesuicide research, the number one
(26:37):
cause, or the again, not cause,but what has been endorsed in
psychological autopsies.
And this is usually the familyand the friends answering yes,
yes, he or she reported that.
Interpersonal difficulties, youknow, so they're really not
getting along with theirsignificant other, right?
And so somebody who comes from achildhood where they didn't feel
(27:01):
cared for by their by theirparents or guardians, they're
likely going to have a difficulttime relating to their
significant other, right?
And if there was physical abuseand and verbal abuse, well,
people are not your go-to whenyou're having a hard time.
Alcohol's probably your go-to,prescription medication, maybe
(27:22):
working out, not you know, sleepis gonna be an issue.
And also these people had hadthey uh endorsed one true and
false item that says, I havetrouble calming down once I get
angry.
SPEAKER_02 (27:35):
Right.
I remember that that area, andit's so important to talk about
those things because you're notgonna trust a human being, and
there's a reason for that.
And the whether again, thevetting stuff about therapists
telling a first responder of anykind, to me anyway, say don't
(27:56):
worry, trust me, is a great wayto be distrusted for the rest of
the session.
SPEAKER_01 (28:00):
It's earned, trust is earned.
The and these individuals tendto be closer to animals, like
they'll have a beloved dog thatthey go home to and they cuddle
with and they feel closer to thedog than they do their
significant other or or theirkids.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:18):
Well, as we come up on time, Stacey, this one I
really fast really enjoyed ourconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
You still gotta set up karaoke.
SPEAKER_02 (28:26):
So yeah, I'm not I'm I'm going.
You tell me where it is, we'llfigure it out.
We'll meet her in Rhode Island.
That way we're on neutral side.
SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
In Rhode Island.
All right, we can meet in RhodeIsland.
I mean, I'll meet, I'llintroduce you to my dad, and
then you'll you'll havecompassion for me.
SPEAKER_02 (28:40):
I have uh an off interview story about that for
you, not about your dad.
I don't know your dad.
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.
Something else that's similar towhat you just talked about,
which um I think you'll relateto.
But how about my audience wantsto relate to you?
So, where do we find you know,dump the bucket?
Where do we find helping thehelp?
SPEAKER_01 (28:59):
Both books, both books are on Amazon.
Yeah, easy to find them.
My website is drstacyraymond.com.
I'm on LinkedIn, just type myname in.
I come up.
I'm on I'm on Instagram too andFacebook, but I don't I don't do
a whole lot with those, but I'mon.
I'm trying to be, you know, upto date socially, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (29:21):
But yeah, I try to do the same, but yeah, I'm
trying.
But no, I think that you know,this is my for my audience.
I didn't read the helping thehelpers, but I'm assuming I'm
gonna get the signature fromyou.
SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
Um you want that, I could send it your way.
SPEAKER_02 (29:33):
This um yeah, I I and if the ambulance driver's
that's worth reading, you know.
I I want to read it because thisis a great idea to help the
helpers.
SPEAKER_01 (29:42):
Yeah, we need more therapists like you and me to
help the these people that areyou know in the line of fire,
you know.
They're they're risking theirlives helping civilians, and
there aren't enough therapiststhat know how to sit with them.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
You forgot one thing to mention.
Watch the podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (30:01):
The podcast is uh responder resilience.
And so you can find all of ourepisodes at respondertv.com.
SPEAKER_02 (30:10):
All right.
So I wanted people to go tothat.
We're gonna do karaoke in RhodeIsland.
For my audience, thank you.
I hope you enjoyed this becauseI do did enjoy it.
I hope uh you go see get uh youknow Stacy's book on Amazon.
And otherwise, I look forward toseeing all of you at the next
episode.
SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(30:53):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Popular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com