February 11, 2026 • 37 mins
The hardest stories rarely get told in the places that need them most. Susan Roggendorf and I open the door to how confidentiality truly works for police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and medics—and why airtight boundaries are the backbone of real therapeutic change. No nods in public that out you, no name drops across departments, and no casual mentions that break trust. HIPAA is the law, but it is also a lived ethic that lets you speak freely without risking your reputation or your career.
We get candid about the therapist–client relationship: professional, paid, and deeply human. It feels friendly at times because safety grows where pain is met with care. We talk about scheduling like chess to avoid back-to-back clients from the same team, navigating community run-ins, and letting clients choose whether to say hello or keep distance. Culture fit matters—dark humor, blunt talk, and straight answers help first responders feel seen. Sometimes the most therapeutic move is five minutes of sports talk to let your nervous system shift gears before you tackle the call you can’t shake.
We dig into vicarious trauma and why “talk to a friend” isn’t enough. Friends can support you; therapists are trained to hear what is unsaid, track patterns over time, and offer clear choices: do you want support or solutions today? That simple question hands back control when so much of the job strips it away. We challenge the quiet shaming of help-seeking and argue for a culture that treats mental health like gear maintenance—nonnegotiable for readiness and longevity.
If you’ve wondered whether a therapist will keep your confidence, or how therapy can actually work for your world, you’ll hear real practices that protect privacy and deepen trust. Walk away with language to set boundaries, insight into how clinicians think, and a clearer path to care that respects the badge and the person behind it.
To reach Susan, please go to https://psychhub.com/us/provider/susan-roggendorf/1316326036
If this conversation helped, follow the show, share it with your crew, and leave a review so more first responders can find it. Your feedback keeps this work moving.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve B.
Holmes.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their team.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
it, and I still enjoy it.
And it saves me time and itsaves me energy.
Free.ai takes your note, makes atranscri from what you're
talking with a client, justpress record.
And it does either transcript,it does a subjective, and an
(00:58):
objective with a letter ifneeded for your client.
And for whoever might get it.
So for$99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More important.
This is what you got.
You are my audience.
(01:20):
If you do put this and you wantto use free.ai, put in the code
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Get free from writing yournotes.
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Use that to your advantage.
(01:41):
Free.ai.
A great service.
Go to get free.ai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney.
And I'll just go.
Let's go back to talking aboutthat because for me, one of the
things that happens is we wantto talk about go to see a
(02:02):
therapist and we have peersupport and we have citizens.
But then we have people who arelike, well, wait a minute, I
don't want to talk to Susanbecause Susan talks to Steve,
and I don't want Steve to knowmy stories.
And while I think firstresponders in principle know
HIPAA, I don't think they knowwhat HIPAA truly means.
SPEAKER_05 (02:23):
Well, HIPAA being a federal law where you're not
allowed to give out any kind ofidentifying information about a
person and or the reason whythey're getting treatment or
even if they're in treatment.
Period.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (02:34):
Period.
When people first come in, thatis part of the getting to know
you part of my sessions.
Yeah.
Is to say that if you got areferral from one of your
buddies in your department, youcan talk all the time about,
yeah, we were talking about youand everything else, and that my
(02:56):
response will be more often thannot, sounds like it was an
interesting conversation thatyou had.
I am not going to acknowledge Iknow anybody outside of you in
that session.
It's that simple.
And it's also about carryingthat forward outside of my
office, right?
(03:17):
Or outside of the telehealthsituation.
That if I see you out in publicand your buddies are with you
and your buddies may or may notbe somebody that also sees me,
I'm not going to be introducingmyself.
I won't even acknowledge youuntil someone else acknowledges
me.
And even then, it's just goingto be a hi, or it's going to be,
you know, a raise of hand or,you know, a nod in your
direction and then walk off.
(03:40):
And for people, that'scomfortable.
And for others, they're like, ohno, but you know, we all know
you.
And it's like, okay, butethically, as well as legally, I
want to make sure there's a veryclear demarcation about this is
who I am on the outside, this iswho I am on site with you in
session.
And part of this too isunderstanding that at a certain
(04:01):
point you get very comfortable.
Hopefully they do, I think wedo, that it becomes a feeling of
friendliness because it's a it'sa relationship you're building.
It's a it's a professionalrelationship.
I'm therapist, you're a client,and it's a paid relationship.
I'm giving a service to allowyou to move forward with
(04:22):
whatever it is you're workingthrough.
SPEAKER_02 (04:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (04:25):
But because of the intimate topic that we talk
about and how that influenceswhat they think about outside of
session, I don't think for a lotof a lot of my clients that
every once in a while I'll popup in their thoughts about, oh,
I gotta tell her about this, oroh, she's gonna fucking laugh
her ass off when I tell herthis, or man, I don't want to
(04:47):
fucking tell her this, and Iknow she's gonna know about it,
she's gonna sniff it out.
Whatever.
Right.
So it it's being carried along.
So it's not like, okay, I wentto the doctor and I got my elbow
stitched up because you know Islammed into that car door.
And you don't think about yourdoctor after that.
You may, when it twinges, youhave to go get the stitches up,
whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (05:06):
Therapy is different because we have that emotional
intimacy of this is the placewhere you get to tell me things
you don't tell anybody else, andit stays fucking right here.
And that's also the purpose ofHIPAA, knowing that you are
legally protected.
There is there should be nobodytalking about their clients
outside of session ever.
(05:27):
Even as it is with, you know,they understand, you know, with
paperwork and everything else,it's the same thing for us as
therapists.
Even with paperwork, let's saysomebody, let's say somebody
comes in and they have apartner, and the partner, I get
an email from this partnersaying, Hey, I think you should
know this, blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah.
And all I can do is say, thankyou for your email.
(05:50):
That's fucking it.
I don't acknowledge anything,but it also depends on the
information I'm getting out ofthat email.
You know, if it just depends onwhat it is, because this has
happened, I won't acknowledge itat all.
So most of the time we should bevery conscious about how HIPAA
is working in all these spheres.
(06:11):
So if they're worried that,let's say Bob, who knows you and
work in the same department,both of you are coming to me as
the for the therapy work, andBob is worried that I'm gonna
say to you at your session, heySteve, I just saw Bob two hours
earlier.
Seems like he's doing reallywell.
Fuck no.
(06:32):
No.
No.
What I'm gonna say is, heySteve, glad you made it in
today.
What the hell's going on?
Right.
Fill me in.
What did we do last time andwhere do you want to go from
there?
It's no, it's not your businessabout Bob, and Bob has no
business knowing about you.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
I mean, I there's so many things I want to respond to
because there's a lot of I agreewith most of what you're saying,
but I I also have somedifferential for you.
But let's start off with for me,I sometimes I do work with
people from the same department.
So sometimes I'll be doing it inmy schedule and go, like, oh,
you can come in at two.
(07:08):
No, you can't come in at twothat day.
Oh what?
Oh, I something came up, andit's because I don't want the
two from the same departmentback to back because I want to
protect them.
So you you gotta play thatmental game that I don't think
people understand that we play.
SPEAKER_05 (07:23):
It's a it's a game of chess.
You have to be very good withyour strategy about scheduling,
absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (07:28):
And I've also had the conversation with my clients
that if you ever see someone yourecognize here, don't ask me
about them because I won'tacknowledge anything.
Number one, and number two,don't go out in the community
and say, hey, I saw you leaveSteve's office.
You do that, I will never workwith you again.
And I won't give you a chanceand I don't want an explanation,
(07:48):
it's over.
And our guys get that.
I mean, I I don't know aboutyou, but my guys get that right
away.
Like not talking about it.
SPEAKER_05 (07:55):
I've never even had to use that with them.
I mean, I've never had to use iteither.
You know, I think it's it'sunderstood when I have that
conversation with with sessionone about this is how serious I
take making sure your privacy isprotected, that I'm not even
going to acknowledge you in agroup of your people.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (08:15):
Or even if you're by yourself, I'm not acknowledging
you because that's part ofkeeping your privacy and your
business your business.
Because listen, even if itwasn't about fucking HIPAA, I
wouldn't do it anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (08:28):
Because it's nobody else's business.
You know, if you want to sharethings, that is up to you about
your therapy, who you see.
That's up to you.
I don't care what you want to dowith that.
I may ask you what is yourmotivation for doing that, but I
don't care.
But I'm not bringing it up.
That's not my job.
My job is to protect everybody'sprivacy because this is a very
(08:52):
protected space.
And people can get kind ofcutesy or hippie-ish or whatever
about a sacred space andeverything else.
And it's just about this is theone place that people should
feel comfortable being able tobear their souls.
And I mean fucking lay it outfor people because it's so hard
to be human and trust people andbe able to have that
(09:14):
vulnerability.
And then when you're dealingwith something that is so heavy
and so hard and it's driving younuts, to find the one person
that you can connect with,number one, number two, that you
trust, and number three, itfeels less gross to open
yourself up because that's ahard thing to do.
SPEAKER_03 (09:33):
I think that that's where that's a good point, too.
And this is the stuff that I Ireally think about because it
you said of all the medicalrelationships, this is the most
emotionally intimaterelationship you'll ever have
with any medical provider.
SPEAKER_05 (09:49):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (09:50):
I tell people that that's both a privilege and a
lot of heaviness for us.
Because I what sometimes peoplewill, and this is uh I'm like,
they're like, oh, you know,you're you're kind of like my
friend.
I'm like, I'm a paid friend, butyeah, I guess I am a friend,
like kind of a prostitute ofwords of some sort.
SPEAKER_05 (10:07):
Um you can label it any way you want to.
SPEAKER_03 (10:11):
But I tell them that, yeah, I guess we are
friendly.
I'm I but I'm still your medicalprovider, so to speak.
I say much nicer than what itsounds like right now.
But the point is that yeah,there's a huge privilege that we
have about people opening up tous in such an intimate way.
And if you don't treat it like aprivilege, you're fucked.
(10:32):
Yeah.
I think that for me, that's theother part too that I love to do
is to treat it like this issacred.
SPEAKER_05 (10:37):
But honestly, if you're not treating it as
something that you should begrateful that they trust you,
why are you in this business?
Really?
Why why the fuck are you doingthis?
SPEAKER_03 (10:48):
Good point.
SPEAKER_05 (10:49):
I have been to too many therapists where we did not
connect because I just mm mm,mm-mm.
I wasn't I wasn't getting itwith them.
And I give them something thatwas really heavy for me in that,
and and in the way we discussedit in that, I was getting the
feeling from them that it wasnot being taken as wow, that was
(11:09):
really something that youstruggled to tell me about, and
I appreciate you trusting me.
And I never got that from them.
So that when I did find atherapist that I did, and the
one that I currently have, theydo let me know that that sounds
really shitty.
I am so sorry, Susan.
And thank you for letting meknow.
I know that was really difficultto pull that out and to just
(11:30):
talk about it.
And yeah, I see a fuckingtherapist.
I should be seeing a therapist,not just because of my own lived
experiences, but also because Iwant to make sure that I show up
as the best therapist for myclients.
And I can't do that if I'm stilltrying to process other things
that may have activated me fromother areas of my life.
But in the meantime, I want tomake sure I bring that into the
(11:51):
counseling session too with myclients to let them know I
recognize when there's been apoint that you have struggled to
say this, and I may have noticedthat it's been doing doing this
dance with me for maybe a couplesessions before you finally feel
you can trust me enough to sayit, and then you're holding your
breath as you have said it,waiting for what my reaction is
(12:13):
going to be.
Am I gonna be judged?
Am I gonna be criticized?
Am I gonna be shamed?
And instead, I'm able to tellyou truly, thank you.
I I appreciate you trusting meto tell me this.
And I will tell them, you know,I know it was hard, or I noticed
that this seems like you've beenbuilding up to this for a while.
Where would you like to go withthis now?
(12:34):
It's about understanding what itis that it took for them to get
to that point to trust you.
And my fucking God, I d howcould you not understand how
much trust is given to you andbe grateful that they trust you?
But you're right, Steve.
Understand that that issomething that is a heavy
responsibility that we've takenon, that we need to be grateful,
(12:57):
that we have the ability to doso.
But we also have to make sure wekeep a check on ourselves that
we can keep showing up like thatfor our clients.
SPEAKER_03 (13:05):
Well, I think it's also realizing, like to me, that
what helps me show up regularlyis really that thought of this
is a privilege.
And for me, that's one of thethings that I think a lot of
people forget about our jobs.
It's a privilege.
SPEAKER_05 (13:21):
Yeah.
You know, nobody has to come seeyou.
No, nobody has to tell you shit.
SPEAKER_03 (13:26):
And I think that the fact that people are telling you
shit, you need to treat it assacred.
You know, I have a therapisttoo.
I'm very well open on my podcastthat I have a therapist too.
And my podcast, but you know,like what I tell people is that
a my therapist could not givetwo shits about my podcast, but
he will care about if I say somecertain things in a certain way,
(13:50):
and he's known me long enough,and there's an intimacy about he
recognizes tone intonation thatprobably most people miss.
And that's why, you know, I'llalways be like, I love Joe, but
I'll leave him the fuck alonebecause he's my therapist, he's
not my friend.
And that's the other part toothat we gotta understand is that
it is a privilege, but we alsolike you know, I'm no mind, like
(14:11):
I'm a little different than you.
If someone sees me in thecommunity, I don't sometimes
I'll even say hi first, I don'treally care, but I because I see
it a little differently.
It's not like maybe because Ilive in a more urbanish area,
but it's not like I go, Hi,Susan, my client, and and we'll
see each other on Monday.
And how's that suicidal thoughtgoing?
SPEAKER_04 (14:31):
So I go on, you wouldn't run in business for
very long.
SPEAKER_03 (14:35):
But that's what I mean.
So for me, I always liken it.
This is why I kind of justify itis that my buddy Jay, who's been
on the podcast many times, he'sa cop.
And if I see him in thecommunity, I'll go, Hey, how's
it doing, Jay?
I will wait for him to say hi.
I'll say hi to him.
So for me, it's almost like ifyou avoid someone, you're almost
kind of saying there's arelationship that's therapeutic
(14:57):
there.
So for me, it's just going, Hey,how you doing?
And it's like even my kids nowthat they're older, it's a
little easier.
They get it, but I used to sayto them, Oh, I just work with
them.
They moved on, they didn't thinkabout anything more than that,
and usually didn't even ask.
SPEAKER_05 (15:10):
But usually for me, it's about allowing them the
choice.
And I don't look like youraverage person in a smaller
urban area.
I I have a blue mohawk for God'ssakes.
I have tattoos and uh, you know,it's it's I stick out like a
sore thumb and I'm cool withthat, but it can invite more
(15:34):
questions of how do you knowthat person?
Because the people that Iusually see don't have the
extremes that I do because theirwork won't allow them to go to
the extremes that I do with mylooks.
And even then, if they havetattoos, it has to be covered up
or whatever.
So I give them the choice.
This is this is their power todecide what they want to do, if
(15:54):
they want to do anything aboutit with it all.
And they can dismiss it and orthey can acknowledge it.
It's up to them, and that's whyI do that.
SPEAKER_03 (16:03):
And and I think that that's as long as you have an
agreement with your client,that's very important.
I had a client who adamantlysaid, never say hi to me if you
see me.
And the funny part too is weended up seeing each other
somewhere.
And not that I put my head downpurposely like this, but I
certainly kept my eyes fromlooking at them.
(16:25):
And they went out of the way,like, hey, hi Steve, how are
you?
Like, next session I go, What'sthis like?
Don't fucking recognize me inthe community when you come and
get me.
I don't get it.
So I think that that's why likeI agreed that respecting what
your clients want, but like I'veeven had someone say, Why didn't
you say hi to me?
And I'm like, because I can't.
(16:47):
And so what I do now is I justtreat it as hi.
And if anybody asks, oh, I workwith them, most people don't
even ask twice.
And at this point, I think with242 episodes and counting, oh,
one of my guests I had on mypodcast, no one's gonna ask
twice.
So I think that I have thaturban slash suburban area that
(17:08):
probably gives me that leeway.
SPEAKER_05 (17:10):
Yep.
I think I think it depends onthe context, yes.
And what are you comfortablewith as a therapist and being
able to meet your ethical andlegal obligations and
responsibilities to your clientto make sure they stay safe?
And it's the agreement that youhave between you and your
client.
unknown (17:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (17:27):
I just make it that it's always their choice.
I will say hi, I will engage inconversation, I will make it as
bland or you know, whatever theywant it to be, that's fine
within certain parameters.
I'm not gonna talk aboutsessions in public.
I'm just fucking not going to dothat.
If it's if they in if shouldthey say something along the
(17:47):
lines, hey, I'll see you onTuesday at four o'clock for my
sessions, it'll be just like,yeah, see you later.
That's all I'm gonna say.
Moving on.
I don't know.
I just I just feel it's moreimportant that my clients
understand that they're the onesthat are in control of this when
so much of their lives are notunder their control.
SPEAKER_03 (18:06):
And that's that's a good point.
SPEAKER_05 (18:09):
There's so much that imagine this.
My my having problems withauthority.
You're not the listen to me.
Wow, I know I I know.
I have hidden that so well forso many years.
I should start letting that outmore so people can relate to me.
Um but you know, a lot of thefolks, I don't know about your
(18:32):
people that you've worked within the ER and that, but we all
have authority issues.
We all want to do our jobs, wewant to do it well, we don't
want to be interfered with, wedon't want people who've never
hit our jobs to tell us how todo our fucking jobs or how well
we should be doing our fuckingjobs, et cetera, et cetera.
So to allow my clients to havetheir own authority over their
own voice and their own actionsis really important to me
(18:54):
because it's also important tome to have that as well.
SPEAKER_03 (18:58):
Well, I and I and I think that you talk about
problem with authority.
Uh, the other people, the otherthing I would argue is that
therapists and the firstresponder world have another
thing that's very importantthat's in common, and that's
trauma.
And I think that what you know,for those of you who are
listening, I don't have anytrauma.
You do, but okay.
(19:20):
But I think that what brings usto the helping field, whether
it's a therapist or a firstresponder, is usually because
there was a time where youneeded help and you didn't get
it.
SPEAKER_05 (19:28):
Oh yeah.
Oh yes.
So absolutely.
So that's why in the or in thein the field as you're working
and you've had the trauma andyou get shamed for it.
Right.
I think that is so abhorrentthat we we show up in these
(19:49):
jobs, and persons who aren't init may not want those jobs, and
that's fine, but then we have torecognize that among our among
our among our peers and amongother people we're working with
and other fields that show up ona person's worst day to help
them somehow.
(20:09):
We we have to understand we haveto lift one another up or at
least hold a space for oneanother when that trauma is
happening and not shame eachother and not be shamed by
others.
We're doing jobs most peopledon't fucking ever want.
And honestly, maybe because ofthe personalities we are and the
dark souls we are, we probablyshouldn't either.
(20:30):
But it it fits us because of alot of different lived
experiences that bring us tothat point.
But we shouldn't be, weshouldn't be with the corporate
mindset or with the thedepartment mindset or the the
environment mindset, whateverthat is, of you know, grow up
hair, just get through it, andthen shame people for doing you
(20:52):
know, the opposite of that.
What the fuck are you doing?
There's not enough of us inthese jobs to keep doing our
jobs, let alone to be chasedaway from it because you can't
have some kind of compassion.
And does that make you weak thenfor showing compassion for
someone who can't quote unquoteput on the big boy, big girl
(21:12):
pants and move on?
I just this is a soapbox I couldbe on for days.
It's just it's sickening to methat I've I've seen it in action
where peers have belittled apeer because they were suffering
greatly from something that'shappened that they've never had
to deal with before.
And it's like, yeah, you'venever had that either.
(21:33):
Is it because you suffered,therefore you think somebody
should also suffer the way youdid?
SPEAKER_03 (21:38):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (21:38):
I don't get that mentality.
SPEAKER_03 (21:41):
I don't get the mentality that someone asks for
help.
What's wrong with that?
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:46):
I don't get that mentality.
You know, and I I I also thinkthat the other thing that we
have in common with our firstresponder world as therapists
is, and if you don't like thesewords, guys, I don't really give
a shit, vicarious trauma.
And I don't need to be I don'teven want to say anything.
(22:06):
Officer involved shooting.
We'll just go with that.
SPEAKER_05 (22:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (22:10):
If you hear stories from someone that you work with
who's been involved in anofficer involved shooting,
there's vicarious trauma thatoccurs through that because what
we do is we sit in their shoes.
And first responders, when theygo to someone's worst call worst
day in their lives, they sitthere in their shoes too.
(22:31):
They have a lot of empathy forthe most part.
It's to me, first respondersshould just for vicarious
trauma.
Again, not PTSI, not PTSDtrauma.
Then vicarious trauma.
We should be able to go see atherapist.
And then part of me sometimes isthat like you say, people but
sometimes people are like, well,that's a supervisor's job.
(22:53):
No, sometimes I gotta talk to mytherapist about this shit.
SPEAKER_05 (22:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because here's the thing that Ihave to keep reminding people is
that the people you may betalking to may be resortive, but
they're not the trainedprofessional that's supposed to
be able to help guide youthrough this.
Right.
That's the difference.
I have training, I haveexperience.
I'm the one that is also steppedoutside of your work environment
(23:19):
so that I can bring a differentperspective of observing what's
going on and being able to pickup on these other things because
I don't have this other stuffthat is is like a smoke screen
because I'm too busy with thisother stuff because your
supervisor is your peer orwhatever, and how is that going
to affect me also in thedepartment?
SPEAKER_03 (23:35):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05 (23:37):
And that's that's the difference between having a
friend and having a therapist.
SPEAKER_03 (23:42):
Friends can go so far.
SPEAKER_05 (23:44):
Yeah.
Friends are awesome, but they'renot trained professionals.
You know, I love my friends, andif I were to be sick or I fell
down or I cut myself or broke aleg, I could count on them to
help me get to a point where Icould be turned over to someone
who is trained to help me.
Emotional hurt, emotional damageis the same thing as a physical
(24:07):
trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (24:09):
And one would argue that, and again, I not I love my
friends, don't get me wrong.
My friends might go, like, Idon't fucking know what to say.
And I have great friends thatI've had for 39 plus years.
And then sometimes you're like,How do you sit there and not
like you know, bend?
(24:31):
I'm like, Well, I don't know, Ijust don't.
But that's something that forthem is a foreign concept and
it's very difficult tounderstand.
And so, friend go to mytherapist, he may not fully
understand or have lived it, buthis job is not to sit there and
go, I don't know, and notsupport me or not know what to
say.
They might say, I don't knowwhat to say, but you know, that
(24:51):
sounds rough or whatever.
And there is a change of howit's addressed.
Your friends won't addresseverything.
They will help you, they willsupport you, but they will not
address everything.
SPEAKER_05 (25:02):
But part of our job as a therapist is to sit back
and understand what are theytalking about really?
What's motivating them?
What is it that's not beingsaid?
What is their body languagetelling me?
What is it that how did this wejust talked about this last week
and the two times before that wetalked about another thing
that's connected to that?
We're we're doing detective workwhen we're working with them and
(25:26):
piecing together differentcomponents that may have been
addressed from session tosession in order to be able to
help them understand what it isthat they're feeling and making
sure they understand that theycan feel any way they want to.
But what do we want to do withit?
You have a choice.
This is you know, you you get todo all kinds of different
(25:46):
things.
That's our job as the therapistversus a friend.
A friend can be there and beempathetic and feel exactly, you
know, they can, yeah, fuck them.
I'm gonna go through it, but Igot a credit card, a full tank
of gas.
Let's go kick some ass.
I mean, that's fine.
You know, I may or may not havesaid that also in session with a
with a client or two, and youknow, joking around and and
(26:08):
being sassy about stuff.
But when it comes down tosession work, it's about man,
that's fucked up for you.
What do you want to do withthis?
Do you want to talk more aboutthis?
Do you want to put this on a pegfor a while?
Do you want do you want to doyou wanna just be angry?
(26:30):
It's okay.
We'll figure it out.
But I am sorry, that is shit.
Sometimes just hearing somebodysay that and saying they
understand that yeah, that'spretty fucked up, can be a sense
of relief for a lot of persons,at least when my therapist tells
me about, you know, tellingabout something that Susan's dad
was messed up.
Fuck right.
(26:50):
Fuck right.
Thank you for sh for letting meknow that yeah, it this is as
bad as I thought it was.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
And I usually follow up with, all right, what do you
want to do with this?
You want support?
You want some ideas of how tohandle it, or you just want to
sit there and just process it.
And feel it.
And then they most people arelike, and again, I I I just did
my survey not too long ago withmy clients, and that's what they
ask me like, is there a way todo like break the veil of what
(27:20):
you do as a counselor?
Honestly, this is what I try todo with the podcast because I
sit there, like you know, likewhen people like, oh, I bet you
never heard this story.
I've never heard that story.
In fact, most of my clients haveunique stories, but that doesn't
mean I don't know how to treatit.
I've never had schizophrenia,but I know how to treat
schizophrenia.
And that's kind of what theargument I make sometimes.
(27:42):
Like, I think that what peopletend to forget is that it
doesn't cost a dime to beempathetic.
And as a therapist, tellingsomeone, hey, do you want
support or you want a solution?
That's great.
And the other part too, whichagain, a little trick that my
clients do know.
And I think that if someone froma different department or
whatever decides I want to comeand see me, they may know
(28:04):
someone there.
Sometimes I shoot the shit withmy clients.
And what I mean by that is, youknow, I I live in the Boston
area.
So sports are huge around here.
So sometimes we'll shoot theshit for sports for 15 minutes,
and sometimes, like, oh, that'snot very therapeutic.
I'm like, well, you know where Istand, I know where you stand.
We shared a moment.
(28:24):
I think that's therapy.
SPEAKER_05 (28:26):
But okay, what do you mean it's not therapeutic
though?
If somebody throws that at you,how the hell do they know?
SPEAKER_02 (28:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (28:31):
Maybe for that client, they have a difficult
time switching gears when theyfirst get to your office.
They may need that time totransition by shooting the shit
with us in order to be able toreach those places that is
difficult to carry with them.
So fuck you.
You don't know me, you don'tknow my life, you don't know my
job.
(28:52):
And the reason I got out ofbeing in the ER was you're not
the fucking boss of me.
SPEAKER_03 (28:57):
Well, I agree, first of all.
And number two, it's for me,it's like that's where you know,
sometimes people are like, hey,what do you think of this sports
team or whatever?
And I might get a show my like,I hate this team or I love this
team, and then we start likelaughing or like making fun of
each other.
And that moment is such abonding experience for them that
(29:18):
it's that's so therapeutic thatyou can't even wrap like some
people can't wrap their headaround it.
SPEAKER_05 (29:23):
It's it's part of therapy in the sense that you
are developing further the trustbond you have with your client
and that they have with you inthat working relationship so
they know that they can trustyou when the shit gets really
heavy to know them.
SPEAKER_02 (29:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (29:39):
And that they're they're there and you're there
for them for a lot of reasons.
And that trust bond allows themto go to deeper places.
It's enhancing the emotionalintimacy of the bond you have
between therapist and clientthat works towards the
therapeutics of allowing themthat space to go in dark places
(30:04):
they can't tell other people, orthey're they have other reasons
why they can't be talked about.
SPEAKER_03 (30:11):
I agree.
And I think that that's wherethat's where you you have that's
why I well let maybe finish likewe talked.
We've already gone about an houralready, as we usually do.
But I I go back to thedifference between someone who
is competent with this cultureversus people who are not.
(30:32):
Being able to relate in that wayis humongous for them.
This is very important.
You are not relatable, theydon't really care, they don't
really want to come and talk toyou.
So you gotta be relatable, andthat doesn't mean you always
agree, it just means you'rerelatable, and I think that's
important.
And the other part too is beingable to we swear and all that,
and then that's what's importantfor them too, because they're
(30:54):
like, Oh, you're a human beinglike me.
They don't want to see a suitand tie person, in my
experience.
SPEAKER_05 (31:00):
If they wanted to, they wouldn't be coming to my
office, right?
And my you know, I'm I got myface on my website, they get to
know who I am before they evenwalk in, and I'm very honest
about my own anxiety journey andthe work that I do, and there it
is.
They they what you see is whatyou get, WYSIWYG, right?
(31:21):
They want a suit and tie it.
Sure shit ain't gonna be me.
Nope.
SPEAKER_03 (31:25):
And by the way, I have more of a of a authority
figure issue than you.
I haven't worked for anyone inlike 11 years, and when the last
few times I've worked withpeople, people have like, you
don't let respect the authority.
I'm like, no, I don't.
I just don't.
SPEAKER_05 (31:41):
Yeah.
Thanks, Captain Fucking Obvious.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
If you're fucking wrong, I don't care what your
fucking role is, I'm gonna tellyou you're wrong.
But anyway.
So then how like talking aboutyou know, people can see your
face on your website.
How about you tell me yourwebsite, where we can find you,
and a little bit about fuck therules.
SPEAKER_05 (31:59):
Well, you can go to counseling services.com.
That's where my private practiceinformation is at.
You can also look up fuck therules podcast.com.
That's where you can find mypodcast.
I'm on all streaming platformsthat have the ability to stream
podcasts.
I am not on YouTube like myfancy friend Steve here because
I don't have the time or theenergy to put the videos up
(32:22):
along with everything else thatgoes along with the podcast.
Maybe next year, maybe not.
I keep saying that every year,so who the fuck knows?
But I tend to drop that onceevery two weeks or so with a new
episode.
It's free.
And then after I think twoweeks, then it gets locked off
for people who have a premiummembership that can listen to
back episodes.
So but there are still some thatI have kept unlocked that have
(32:43):
to do with mental health aboutwhether it's a specific type of
treatment or it's about mentalhealth for those in helping
professions.
So those are still available andfree too.
SPEAKER_03 (32:54):
And um I I encourage people to go listen to it and
get the premium stuff.
It's really good.
SPEAKER_05 (32:59):
It's three bucks a month.
It's I'm not charging you a shitton of money.
It's like, you know, it's likesomebody's like, you should do
it on Patreon.
I'm like, yeah, but you know,that's like five bucks.
You know, three bucks, that'snot even a goddamn cup of coffee
anymore.
It's just, you know, and thethree bucks that you know, you
and I have talked about it forthat's not paying for much of
anything.
Well, this isn't it, you won'teven cover hosting on your
website.
So, but for me, it kind of helpsoffset a few of the smaller
(33:22):
things that I get to do becauseof that.
SPEAKER_03 (33:24):
So well, I'm gonna definitely see.
I haven't done that, I haven'thad the patience to do that.
Uh, so that we have thatdifferently.
The YouTube thing I'm gonna giveyou really the the quick and
dirty of that.
You should be on YouTube for thesimple fact that we've done your
interviews on you on Zoom.
And if you go for the first, oh,at least 30 episodes, if not
(33:45):
more, there's no productionvalue in it, it's just the raw
footage and video, and it's justthrown on YouTube.
And I still get hits, and I havepeople who listen.
And so, just for the record, youdon't need to be very polished.
SPEAKER_05 (33:57):
All you have to do is go to YouTube and go download
you're gonna drag this out in anepisode, Jesus.
Steve, fine.
SPEAKER_03 (34:07):
I've guys look, it's called peer pressure.
SPEAKER_04 (34:09):
Um yeah, that work and work so well for me, which
is why I have blue hair in themainstream environment that I
live in.
SPEAKER_03 (34:18):
I know, and I mean, like, I know how you do well
with peer so, but you know,here's the thing.
I let's finish on this.
SPEAKER_05 (34:25):
You're gonna reverse psychology me on this, aren't
you?
You're gonna try to.
SPEAKER_03 (34:28):
I won't, because let's say, for example, I can't
think of a podcast, but justthink of a podcast that you
listen to.
If they try to pressure me indoing what they do, I'm like,
that's really great.
What do you do?
I ain't fucking doing that.
That's not me.
If you pressured me into doingsomething, and now I'm thinking
about the whole bonus or uh paidfeature of it, I respect you, so
(34:50):
that peer pressure meanssomething to me.
SPEAKER_05 (34:57):
You're working on me, you're working on me.
And you know, and Steve, I loveyou like a brother, and but I'm
just fuck you.
SPEAKER_03 (35:06):
No, that's the ultimate mark of respect.
I tell people if you tell me togo fuck myself, that means you
love me.
I'm good.
It's what people don't say.
SPEAKER_05 (35:13):
Do you still do you still have your counterboard
where you would have how manypeople have told you to fuck
off?
SPEAKER_03 (35:18):
Hell the fuck, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (35:20):
Excellent.
SPEAKER_03 (35:21):
January, like I know we're recording, this will be
out in February.
We're like nine days in inJanuary.
I already have three.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, BJ.
Well, Susan, always great tohave you on.
Let's make it a regular thingfor us to be on together.
SPEAKER_05 (35:40):
Absolutely.
And I just I love coming hereand just chatting with you and
getting more information out topeople who are listening.
And first responders, people inhelping professions, if you're
worried about buddies that aregoing to the therapist that you
want to go see, that may saysomething about how they trust
that person to listen to them.
(36:01):
That's my last word on that.
So think about it at the veryleast.
SPEAKER_03 (36:05):
I'd like I'm gonna finish on that because I think
that's great advice.
If you've got someone you likewho's seeing someone, maybe that
person is trustworthy.
That's a great way to put it andfinish this episode.
So thank you again.
We'll go why we'll go listen toyour podcast, we'll pay for it.
And then when you go on YouTube,I will be your first subscriber,
so we'll be good.
(36:26):
But Susan, I thank you so muchfor the time.
SPEAKER_05 (36:29):
Steve, I love you, kid.
Thank you so much for having meon here.
I'm always happy to come on andchat with you and get
information out.
And of course, you're gonna beback on my episodes.
SPEAKER_03 (36:37):
So we'll be seeing each other.
If I gotta meet your favoritechild, uh this completes episode
242.
I hope you guys enjoyed it.
And see me on the other side onepisode 243.
And thank you for your time,guys.
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to theprofessional health for age
debt.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, for assistance.
(37:17):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve B.
Holmes.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their team.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
it, and I still enjoy it.
And it saves me time and itsaves me energy.
Free.ai takes your note, makes atranscri from what you're
talking with a client, justpress record.
And it does either transcript,it does a subjective, and an
(00:58):
objective with a letter ifneeded for your client.
And for whoever might get it.
So for$99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More important.
This is what you got.
You are my audience.
(01:20):
If you do put this and you wantto use free.ai, put in the code
C50 code area 5.0.
You will get$50 off.
Get free from writing yournotes.
Get free from either writingyour transcripts.
Use that to your advantage.
(01:41):
Free.ai.
A great service.
Go to get free.ai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney.
And I'll just go.
Let's go back to talking aboutthat because for me, one of the
things that happens is we wantto talk about go to see a
(02:02):
therapist and we have peersupport and we have citizens.
But then we have people who arelike, well, wait a minute, I
don't want to talk to Susanbecause Susan talks to Steve,
and I don't want Steve to knowmy stories.
And while I think firstresponders in principle know
HIPAA, I don't think they knowwhat HIPAA truly means.
SPEAKER_05 (02:23):
Well, HIPAA being a federal law where you're not
allowed to give out any kind ofidentifying information about a
person and or the reason whythey're getting treatment or
even if they're in treatment.
Period.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (02:34):
Period.
When people first come in, thatis part of the getting to know
you part of my sessions.
Yeah.
Is to say that if you got areferral from one of your
buddies in your department, youcan talk all the time about,
yeah, we were talking about youand everything else, and that my
(02:56):
response will be more often thannot, sounds like it was an
interesting conversation thatyou had.
I am not going to acknowledge Iknow anybody outside of you in
that session.
It's that simple.
And it's also about carryingthat forward outside of my
office, right?
(03:17):
Or outside of the telehealthsituation.
That if I see you out in publicand your buddies are with you
and your buddies may or may notbe somebody that also sees me,
I'm not going to be introducingmyself.
I won't even acknowledge youuntil someone else acknowledges
me.
And even then, it's just goingto be a hi, or it's going to be,
you know, a raise of hand or,you know, a nod in your
direction and then walk off.
(03:40):
And for people, that'scomfortable.
And for others, they're like, ohno, but you know, we all know
you.
And it's like, okay, butethically, as well as legally, I
want to make sure there's a veryclear demarcation about this is
who I am on the outside, this iswho I am on site with you in
session.
And part of this too isunderstanding that at a certain
(04:01):
point you get very comfortable.
Hopefully they do, I think wedo, that it becomes a feeling of
friendliness because it's a it'sa relationship you're building.
It's a it's a professionalrelationship.
I'm therapist, you're a client,and it's a paid relationship.
I'm giving a service to allowyou to move forward with
(04:22):
whatever it is you're workingthrough.
SPEAKER_02 (04:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (04:25):
But because of the intimate topic that we talk
about and how that influenceswhat they think about outside of
session, I don't think for a lotof a lot of my clients that
every once in a while I'll popup in their thoughts about, oh,
I gotta tell her about this, oroh, she's gonna fucking laugh
her ass off when I tell herthis, or man, I don't want to
(04:47):
fucking tell her this, and Iknow she's gonna know about it,
she's gonna sniff it out.
Whatever.
Right.
So it it's being carried along.
So it's not like, okay, I wentto the doctor and I got my elbow
stitched up because you know Islammed into that car door.
And you don't think about yourdoctor after that.
You may, when it twinges, youhave to go get the stitches up,
whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (05:06):
Therapy is different because we have that emotional
intimacy of this is the placewhere you get to tell me things
you don't tell anybody else, andit stays fucking right here.
And that's also the purpose ofHIPAA, knowing that you are
legally protected.
There is there should be nobodytalking about their clients
outside of session ever.
(05:27):
Even as it is with, you know,they understand, you know, with
paperwork and everything else,it's the same thing for us as
therapists.
Even with paperwork, let's saysomebody, let's say somebody
comes in and they have apartner, and the partner, I get
an email from this partnersaying, Hey, I think you should
know this, blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah.
And all I can do is say, thankyou for your email.
(05:50):
That's fucking it.
I don't acknowledge anything,but it also depends on the
information I'm getting out ofthat email.
You know, if it just depends onwhat it is, because this has
happened, I won't acknowledge itat all.
So most of the time we should bevery conscious about how HIPAA
is working in all these spheres.
(06:11):
So if they're worried that,let's say Bob, who knows you and
work in the same department,both of you are coming to me as
the for the therapy work, andBob is worried that I'm gonna
say to you at your session, heySteve, I just saw Bob two hours
earlier.
Seems like he's doing reallywell.
Fuck no.
(06:32):
No.
No.
What I'm gonna say is, heySteve, glad you made it in
today.
What the hell's going on?
Right.
Fill me in.
What did we do last time andwhere do you want to go from
there?
It's no, it's not your businessabout Bob, and Bob has no
business knowing about you.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
I mean, I there's so many things I want to respond to
because there's a lot of I agreewith most of what you're saying,
but I I also have somedifferential for you.
But let's start off with for me,I sometimes I do work with
people from the same department.
So sometimes I'll be doing it inmy schedule and go, like, oh,
you can come in at two.
(07:08):
No, you can't come in at twothat day.
Oh what?
Oh, I something came up, andit's because I don't want the
two from the same departmentback to back because I want to
protect them.
So you you gotta play thatmental game that I don't think
people understand that we play.
SPEAKER_05 (07:23):
It's a it's a game of chess.
You have to be very good withyour strategy about scheduling,
absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (07:28):
And I've also had the conversation with my clients
that if you ever see someone yourecognize here, don't ask me
about them because I won'tacknowledge anything.
Number one, and number two,don't go out in the community
and say, hey, I saw you leaveSteve's office.
You do that, I will never workwith you again.
And I won't give you a chanceand I don't want an explanation,
(07:48):
it's over.
And our guys get that.
I mean, I I don't know aboutyou, but my guys get that right
away.
Like not talking about it.
SPEAKER_05 (07:55):
I've never even had to use that with them.
I mean, I've never had to use iteither.
You know, I think it's it'sunderstood when I have that
conversation with with sessionone about this is how serious I
take making sure your privacy isprotected, that I'm not even
going to acknowledge you in agroup of your people.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (08:15):
Or even if you're by yourself, I'm not acknowledging
you because that's part ofkeeping your privacy and your
business your business.
Because listen, even if itwasn't about fucking HIPAA, I
wouldn't do it anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (08:28):
Because it's nobody else's business.
You know, if you want to sharethings, that is up to you about
your therapy, who you see.
That's up to you.
I don't care what you want to dowith that.
I may ask you what is yourmotivation for doing that, but I
don't care.
But I'm not bringing it up.
That's not my job.
My job is to protect everybody'sprivacy because this is a very
(08:52):
protected space.
And people can get kind ofcutesy or hippie-ish or whatever
about a sacred space andeverything else.
And it's just about this is theone place that people should
feel comfortable being able tobear their souls.
And I mean fucking lay it outfor people because it's so hard
to be human and trust people andbe able to have that
(09:14):
vulnerability.
And then when you're dealingwith something that is so heavy
and so hard and it's driving younuts, to find the one person
that you can connect with,number one, number two, that you
trust, and number three, itfeels less gross to open
yourself up because that's ahard thing to do.
SPEAKER_03 (09:33):
I think that that's where that's a good point, too.
And this is the stuff that I Ireally think about because it
you said of all the medicalrelationships, this is the most
emotionally intimaterelationship you'll ever have
with any medical provider.
SPEAKER_05 (09:49):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (09:50):
I tell people that that's both a privilege and a
lot of heaviness for us.
Because I what sometimes peoplewill, and this is uh I'm like,
they're like, oh, you know,you're you're kind of like my
friend.
I'm like, I'm a paid friend, butyeah, I guess I am a friend,
like kind of a prostitute ofwords of some sort.
SPEAKER_05 (10:07):
Um you can label it any way you want to.
SPEAKER_03 (10:11):
But I tell them that, yeah, I guess we are
friendly.
I'm I but I'm still your medicalprovider, so to speak.
I say much nicer than what itsounds like right now.
But the point is that yeah,there's a huge privilege that we
have about people opening up tous in such an intimate way.
And if you don't treat it like aprivilege, you're fucked.
(10:32):
Yeah.
I think that for me, that's theother part too that I love to do
is to treat it like this issacred.
SPEAKER_05 (10:37):
But honestly, if you're not treating it as
something that you should begrateful that they trust you,
why are you in this business?
Really?
Why why the fuck are you doingthis?
SPEAKER_03 (10:48):
Good point.
SPEAKER_05 (10:49):
I have been to too many therapists where we did not
connect because I just mm mm,mm-mm.
I wasn't I wasn't getting itwith them.
And I give them something thatwas really heavy for me in that,
and and in the way we discussedit in that, I was getting the
feeling from them that it wasnot being taken as wow, that was
(11:09):
really something that youstruggled to tell me about, and
I appreciate you trusting me.
And I never got that from them.
So that when I did find atherapist that I did, and the
one that I currently have, theydo let me know that that sounds
really shitty.
I am so sorry, Susan.
And thank you for letting meknow.
I know that was really difficultto pull that out and to just
(11:30):
talk about it.
And yeah, I see a fuckingtherapist.
I should be seeing a therapist,not just because of my own lived
experiences, but also because Iwant to make sure that I show up
as the best therapist for myclients.
And I can't do that if I'm stilltrying to process other things
that may have activated me fromother areas of my life.
But in the meantime, I want tomake sure I bring that into the
(11:51):
counseling session too with myclients to let them know I
recognize when there's been apoint that you have struggled to
say this, and I may have noticedthat it's been doing doing this
dance with me for maybe a couplesessions before you finally feel
you can trust me enough to sayit, and then you're holding your
breath as you have said it,waiting for what my reaction is
(12:13):
going to be.
Am I gonna be judged?
Am I gonna be criticized?
Am I gonna be shamed?
And instead, I'm able to tellyou truly, thank you.
I I appreciate you trusting meto tell me this.
And I will tell them, you know,I know it was hard, or I noticed
that this seems like you've beenbuilding up to this for a while.
Where would you like to go withthis now?
(12:34):
It's about understanding what itis that it took for them to get
to that point to trust you.
And my fucking God, I d howcould you not understand how
much trust is given to you andbe grateful that they trust you?
But you're right, Steve.
Understand that that issomething that is a heavy
responsibility that we've takenon, that we need to be grateful,
(12:57):
that we have the ability to doso.
But we also have to make sure wekeep a check on ourselves that
we can keep showing up like thatfor our clients.
SPEAKER_03 (13:05):
Well, I think it's also realizing, like to me, that
what helps me show up regularlyis really that thought of this
is a privilege.
And for me, that's one of thethings that I think a lot of
people forget about our jobs.
It's a privilege.
SPEAKER_05 (13:21):
Yeah.
You know, nobody has to come seeyou.
No, nobody has to tell you shit.
SPEAKER_03 (13:26):
And I think that the fact that people are telling you
shit, you need to treat it assacred.
You know, I have a therapisttoo.
I'm very well open on my podcastthat I have a therapist too.
And my podcast, but you know,like what I tell people is that
a my therapist could not givetwo shits about my podcast, but
he will care about if I say somecertain things in a certain way,
(13:50):
and he's known me long enough,and there's an intimacy about he
recognizes tone intonation thatprobably most people miss.
And that's why, you know, I'llalways be like, I love Joe, but
I'll leave him the fuck alonebecause he's my therapist, he's
not my friend.
And that's the other part toothat we gotta understand is that
it is a privilege, but we alsolike you know, I'm no mind, like
(14:11):
I'm a little different than you.
If someone sees me in thecommunity, I don't sometimes
I'll even say hi first, I don'treally care, but I because I see
it a little differently.
It's not like maybe because Ilive in a more urbanish area,
but it's not like I go, Hi,Susan, my client, and and we'll
see each other on Monday.
And how's that suicidal thoughtgoing?
SPEAKER_04 (14:31):
So I go on, you wouldn't run in business for
very long.
SPEAKER_03 (14:35):
But that's what I mean.
So for me, I always liken it.
This is why I kind of justify itis that my buddy Jay, who's been
on the podcast many times, he'sa cop.
And if I see him in thecommunity, I'll go, Hey, how's
it doing, Jay?
I will wait for him to say hi.
I'll say hi to him.
So for me, it's almost like ifyou avoid someone, you're almost
kind of saying there's arelationship that's therapeutic
(14:57):
there.
So for me, it's just going, Hey,how you doing?
And it's like even my kids nowthat they're older, it's a
little easier.
They get it, but I used to sayto them, Oh, I just work with
them.
They moved on, they didn't thinkabout anything more than that,
and usually didn't even ask.
SPEAKER_05 (15:10):
But usually for me, it's about allowing them the
choice.
And I don't look like youraverage person in a smaller
urban area.
I I have a blue mohawk for God'ssakes.
I have tattoos and uh, you know,it's it's I stick out like a
sore thumb and I'm cool withthat, but it can invite more
(15:34):
questions of how do you knowthat person?
Because the people that Iusually see don't have the
extremes that I do because theirwork won't allow them to go to
the extremes that I do with mylooks.
And even then, if they havetattoos, it has to be covered up
or whatever.
So I give them the choice.
This is this is their power todecide what they want to do, if
(15:54):
they want to do anything aboutit with it all.
And they can dismiss it and orthey can acknowledge it.
It's up to them, and that's whyI do that.
SPEAKER_03 (16:03):
And and I think that that's as long as you have an
agreement with your client,that's very important.
I had a client who adamantlysaid, never say hi to me if you
see me.
And the funny part too is weended up seeing each other
somewhere.
And not that I put my head downpurposely like this, but I
certainly kept my eyes fromlooking at them.
(16:25):
And they went out of the way,like, hey, hi Steve, how are
you?
Like, next session I go, What'sthis like?
Don't fucking recognize me inthe community when you come and
get me.
I don't get it.
So I think that that's why likeI agreed that respecting what
your clients want, but like I'veeven had someone say, Why didn't
you say hi to me?
And I'm like, because I can't.
(16:47):
And so what I do now is I justtreat it as hi.
And if anybody asks, oh, I workwith them, most people don't
even ask twice.
And at this point, I think with242 episodes and counting, oh,
one of my guests I had on mypodcast, no one's gonna ask
twice.
So I think that I have thaturban slash suburban area that
(17:08):
probably gives me that leeway.
SPEAKER_05 (17:10):
Yep.
I think I think it depends onthe context, yes.
And what are you comfortablewith as a therapist and being
able to meet your ethical andlegal obligations and
responsibilities to your clientto make sure they stay safe?
And it's the agreement that youhave between you and your
client.
unknown (17:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (17:27):
I just make it that it's always their choice.
I will say hi, I will engage inconversation, I will make it as
bland or you know, whatever theywant it to be, that's fine
within certain parameters.
I'm not gonna talk aboutsessions in public.
I'm just fucking not going to dothat.
If it's if they in if shouldthey say something along the
(17:47):
lines, hey, I'll see you onTuesday at four o'clock for my
sessions, it'll be just like,yeah, see you later.
That's all I'm gonna say.
Moving on.
I don't know.
I just I just feel it's moreimportant that my clients
understand that they're the onesthat are in control of this when
so much of their lives are notunder their control.
SPEAKER_03 (18:06):
And that's that's a good point.
SPEAKER_05 (18:09):
There's so much that imagine this.
My my having problems withauthority.
You're not the listen to me.
Wow, I know I I know.
I have hidden that so well forso many years.
I should start letting that outmore so people can relate to me.
Um but you know, a lot of thefolks, I don't know about your
(18:32):
people that you've worked within the ER and that, but we all
have authority issues.
We all want to do our jobs, wewant to do it well, we don't
want to be interfered with, wedon't want people who've never
hit our jobs to tell us how todo our fucking jobs or how well
we should be doing our fuckingjobs, et cetera, et cetera.
So to allow my clients to havetheir own authority over their
own voice and their own actionsis really important to me
(18:54):
because it's also important tome to have that as well.
SPEAKER_03 (18:58):
Well, I and I and I think that you talk about
problem with authority.
Uh, the other people, the otherthing I would argue is that
therapists and the firstresponder world have another
thing that's very importantthat's in common, and that's
trauma.
And I think that what you know,for those of you who are
listening, I don't have anytrauma.
You do, but okay.
(19:20):
But I think that what brings usto the helping field, whether
it's a therapist or a firstresponder, is usually because
there was a time where youneeded help and you didn't get
it.
SPEAKER_05 (19:28):
Oh yeah.
Oh yes.
So absolutely.
So that's why in the or in thein the field as you're working
and you've had the trauma andyou get shamed for it.
Right.
I think that is so abhorrentthat we we show up in these
(19:49):
jobs, and persons who aren't init may not want those jobs, and
that's fine, but then we have torecognize that among our among
our among our peers and amongother people we're working with
and other fields that show up ona person's worst day to help
them somehow.
(20:09):
We we have to understand we haveto lift one another up or at
least hold a space for oneanother when that trauma is
happening and not shame eachother and not be shamed by
others.
We're doing jobs most peopledon't fucking ever want.
And honestly, maybe because ofthe personalities we are and the
dark souls we are, we probablyshouldn't either.
(20:30):
But it it fits us because of alot of different lived
experiences that bring us tothat point.
But we shouldn't be, weshouldn't be with the corporate
mindset or with the thedepartment mindset or the the
environment mindset, whateverthat is, of you know, grow up
hair, just get through it, andthen shame people for doing you
(20:52):
know, the opposite of that.
What the fuck are you doing?
There's not enough of us inthese jobs to keep doing our
jobs, let alone to be chasedaway from it because you can't
have some kind of compassion.
And does that make you weak thenfor showing compassion for
someone who can't quote unquoteput on the big boy, big girl
(21:12):
pants and move on?
I just this is a soapbox I couldbe on for days.
It's just it's sickening to methat I've I've seen it in action
where peers have belittled apeer because they were suffering
greatly from something that'shappened that they've never had
to deal with before.
And it's like, yeah, you'venever had that either.
(21:33):
Is it because you suffered,therefore you think somebody
should also suffer the way youdid?
SPEAKER_03 (21:38):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (21:38):
I don't get that mentality.
SPEAKER_03 (21:41):
I don't get the mentality that someone asks for
help.
What's wrong with that?
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:46):
I don't get that mentality.
You know, and I I I also thinkthat the other thing that we
have in common with our firstresponder world as therapists
is, and if you don't like thesewords, guys, I don't really give
a shit, vicarious trauma.
And I don't need to be I don'teven want to say anything.
(22:06):
Officer involved shooting.
We'll just go with that.
SPEAKER_05 (22:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (22:10):
If you hear stories from someone that you work with
who's been involved in anofficer involved shooting,
there's vicarious trauma thatoccurs through that because what
we do is we sit in their shoes.
And first responders, when theygo to someone's worst call worst
day in their lives, they sitthere in their shoes too.
(22:31):
They have a lot of empathy forthe most part.
It's to me, first respondersshould just for vicarious
trauma.
Again, not PTSI, not PTSDtrauma.
Then vicarious trauma.
We should be able to go see atherapist.
And then part of me sometimes isthat like you say, people but
sometimes people are like, well,that's a supervisor's job.
(22:53):
No, sometimes I gotta talk to mytherapist about this shit.
SPEAKER_05 (22:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because here's the thing that Ihave to keep reminding people is
that the people you may betalking to may be resortive, but
they're not the trainedprofessional that's supposed to
be able to help guide youthrough this.
Right.
That's the difference.
I have training, I haveexperience.
I'm the one that is also steppedoutside of your work environment
(23:19):
so that I can bring a differentperspective of observing what's
going on and being able to pickup on these other things because
I don't have this other stuffthat is is like a smoke screen
because I'm too busy with thisother stuff because your
supervisor is your peer orwhatever, and how is that going
to affect me also in thedepartment?
SPEAKER_03 (23:35):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05 (23:37):
And that's that's the difference between having a
friend and having a therapist.
SPEAKER_03 (23:42):
Friends can go so far.
SPEAKER_05 (23:44):
Yeah.
Friends are awesome, but they'renot trained professionals.
You know, I love my friends, andif I were to be sick or I fell
down or I cut myself or broke aleg, I could count on them to
help me get to a point where Icould be turned over to someone
who is trained to help me.
Emotional hurt, emotional damageis the same thing as a physical
(24:07):
trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (24:09):
And one would argue that, and again, I not I love my
friends, don't get me wrong.
My friends might go, like, Idon't fucking know what to say.
And I have great friends thatI've had for 39 plus years.
And then sometimes you're like,How do you sit there and not
like you know, bend?
(24:31):
I'm like, Well, I don't know, Ijust don't.
But that's something that forthem is a foreign concept and
it's very difficult tounderstand.
And so, friend go to mytherapist, he may not fully
understand or have lived it, buthis job is not to sit there and
go, I don't know, and notsupport me or not know what to
say.
They might say, I don't knowwhat to say, but you know, that
(24:51):
sounds rough or whatever.
And there is a change of howit's addressed.
Your friends won't addresseverything.
They will help you, they willsupport you, but they will not
address everything.
SPEAKER_05 (25:02):
But part of our job as a therapist is to sit back
and understand what are theytalking about really?
What's motivating them?
What is it that's not beingsaid?
What is their body languagetelling me?
What is it that how did this wejust talked about this last week
and the two times before that wetalked about another thing
that's connected to that?
We're we're doing detective workwhen we're working with them and
(25:26):
piecing together differentcomponents that may have been
addressed from session tosession in order to be able to
help them understand what it isthat they're feeling and making
sure they understand that theycan feel any way they want to.
But what do we want to do withit?
You have a choice.
This is you know, you you get todo all kinds of different
(25:46):
things.
That's our job as the therapistversus a friend.
A friend can be there and beempathetic and feel exactly, you
know, they can, yeah, fuck them.
I'm gonna go through it, but Igot a credit card, a full tank
of gas.
Let's go kick some ass.
I mean, that's fine.
You know, I may or may not havesaid that also in session with a
with a client or two, and youknow, joking around and and
(26:08):
being sassy about stuff.
But when it comes down tosession work, it's about man,
that's fucked up for you.
What do you want to do withthis?
Do you want to talk more aboutthis?
Do you want to put this on a pegfor a while?
Do you want do you want to doyou wanna just be angry?
(26:30):
It's okay.
We'll figure it out.
But I am sorry, that is shit.
Sometimes just hearing somebodysay that and saying they
understand that yeah, that'spretty fucked up, can be a sense
of relief for a lot of persons,at least when my therapist tells
me about, you know, tellingabout something that Susan's dad
was messed up.
Fuck right.
(26:50):
Fuck right.
Thank you for sh for letting meknow that yeah, it this is as
bad as I thought it was.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
And I usually follow up with, all right, what do you
want to do with this?
You want support?
You want some ideas of how tohandle it, or you just want to
sit there and just process it.
And feel it.
And then they most people arelike, and again, I I I just did
my survey not too long ago withmy clients, and that's what they
ask me like, is there a way todo like break the veil of what
(27:20):
you do as a counselor?
Honestly, this is what I try todo with the podcast because I
sit there, like you know, likewhen people like, oh, I bet you
never heard this story.
I've never heard that story.
In fact, most of my clients haveunique stories, but that doesn't
mean I don't know how to treatit.
I've never had schizophrenia,but I know how to treat
schizophrenia.
And that's kind of what theargument I make sometimes.
(27:42):
Like, I think that what peopletend to forget is that it
doesn't cost a dime to beempathetic.
And as a therapist, tellingsomeone, hey, do you want
support or you want a solution?
That's great.
And the other part too, whichagain, a little trick that my
clients do know.
And I think that if someone froma different department or
whatever decides I want to comeand see me, they may know
(28:04):
someone there.
Sometimes I shoot the shit withmy clients.
And what I mean by that is, youknow, I I live in the Boston
area.
So sports are huge around here.
So sometimes we'll shoot theshit for sports for 15 minutes,
and sometimes, like, oh, that'snot very therapeutic.
I'm like, well, you know where Istand, I know where you stand.
We shared a moment.
(28:24):
I think that's therapy.
SPEAKER_05 (28:26):
But okay, what do you mean it's not therapeutic
though?
If somebody throws that at you,how the hell do they know?
SPEAKER_02 (28:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (28:31):
Maybe for that client, they have a difficult
time switching gears when theyfirst get to your office.
They may need that time totransition by shooting the shit
with us in order to be able toreach those places that is
difficult to carry with them.
So fuck you.
You don't know me, you don'tknow my life, you don't know my
job.
(28:52):
And the reason I got out ofbeing in the ER was you're not
the fucking boss of me.
SPEAKER_03 (28:57):
Well, I agree, first of all.
And number two, it's for me,it's like that's where you know,
sometimes people are like, hey,what do you think of this sports
team or whatever?
And I might get a show my like,I hate this team or I love this
team, and then we start likelaughing or like making fun of
each other.
And that moment is such abonding experience for them that
(29:18):
it's that's so therapeutic thatyou can't even wrap like some
people can't wrap their headaround it.
SPEAKER_05 (29:23):
It's it's part of therapy in the sense that you
are developing further the trustbond you have with your client
and that they have with you inthat working relationship so
they know that they can trustyou when the shit gets really
heavy to know them.
SPEAKER_02 (29:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (29:39):
And that they're they're there and you're there
for them for a lot of reasons.
And that trust bond allows themto go to deeper places.
It's enhancing the emotionalintimacy of the bond you have
between therapist and clientthat works towards the
therapeutics of allowing themthat space to go in dark places
(30:04):
they can't tell other people, orthey're they have other reasons
why they can't be talked about.
SPEAKER_03 (30:11):
I agree.
And I think that that's wherethat's where you you have that's
why I well let maybe finish likewe talked.
We've already gone about an houralready, as we usually do.
But I I go back to thedifference between someone who
is competent with this cultureversus people who are not.
(30:32):
Being able to relate in that wayis humongous for them.
This is very important.
You are not relatable, theydon't really care, they don't
really want to come and talk toyou.
So you gotta be relatable, andthat doesn't mean you always
agree, it just means you'rerelatable, and I think that's
important.
And the other part too is beingable to we swear and all that,
and then that's what's importantfor them too, because they're
(30:54):
like, Oh, you're a human beinglike me.
They don't want to see a suitand tie person, in my
experience.
SPEAKER_05 (31:00):
If they wanted to, they wouldn't be coming to my
office, right?
And my you know, I'm I got myface on my website, they get to
know who I am before they evenwalk in, and I'm very honest
about my own anxiety journey andthe work that I do, and there it
is.
They they what you see is whatyou get, WYSIWYG, right?
(31:21):
They want a suit and tie it.
Sure shit ain't gonna be me.
Nope.
SPEAKER_03 (31:25):
And by the way, I have more of a of a authority
figure issue than you.
I haven't worked for anyone inlike 11 years, and when the last
few times I've worked withpeople, people have like, you
don't let respect the authority.
I'm like, no, I don't.
I just don't.
SPEAKER_05 (31:41):
Yeah.
Thanks, Captain Fucking Obvious.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
If you're fucking wrong, I don't care what your
fucking role is, I'm gonna tellyou you're wrong.
But anyway.
So then how like talking aboutyou know, people can see your
face on your website.
How about you tell me yourwebsite, where we can find you,
and a little bit about fuck therules.
SPEAKER_05 (31:59):
Well, you can go to counseling services.com.
That's where my private practiceinformation is at.
You can also look up fuck therules podcast.com.
That's where you can find mypodcast.
I'm on all streaming platformsthat have the ability to stream
podcasts.
I am not on YouTube like myfancy friend Steve here because
I don't have the time or theenergy to put the videos up
(32:22):
along with everything else thatgoes along with the podcast.
Maybe next year, maybe not.
I keep saying that every year,so who the fuck knows?
But I tend to drop that onceevery two weeks or so with a new
episode.
It's free.
And then after I think twoweeks, then it gets locked off
for people who have a premiummembership that can listen to
back episodes.
So but there are still some thatI have kept unlocked that have
(32:43):
to do with mental health aboutwhether it's a specific type of
treatment or it's about mentalhealth for those in helping
professions.
So those are still available andfree too.
SPEAKER_03 (32:54):
And um I I encourage people to go listen to it and
get the premium stuff.
It's really good.
SPEAKER_05 (32:59):
It's three bucks a month.
It's I'm not charging you a shitton of money.
It's like, you know, it's likesomebody's like, you should do
it on Patreon.
I'm like, yeah, but you know,that's like five bucks.
You know, three bucks, that'snot even a goddamn cup of coffee
anymore.
It's just, you know, and thethree bucks that you know, you
and I have talked about it forthat's not paying for much of
anything.
Well, this isn't it, you won'teven cover hosting on your
website.
So, but for me, it kind of helpsoffset a few of the smaller
(33:22):
things that I get to do becauseof that.
SPEAKER_03 (33:24):
So well, I'm gonna definitely see.
I haven't done that, I haven'thad the patience to do that.
Uh, so that we have thatdifferently.
The YouTube thing I'm gonna giveyou really the the quick and
dirty of that.
You should be on YouTube for thesimple fact that we've done your
interviews on you on Zoom.
And if you go for the first, oh,at least 30 episodes, if not
(33:45):
more, there's no productionvalue in it, it's just the raw
footage and video, and it's justthrown on YouTube.
And I still get hits, and I havepeople who listen.
And so, just for the record, youdon't need to be very polished.
SPEAKER_05 (33:57):
All you have to do is go to YouTube and go download
you're gonna drag this out in anepisode, Jesus.
Steve, fine.
SPEAKER_03 (34:07):
I've guys look, it's called peer pressure.
SPEAKER_04 (34:09):
Um yeah, that work and work so well for me, which
is why I have blue hair in themainstream environment that I
live in.
SPEAKER_03 (34:18):
I know, and I mean, like, I know how you do well
with peer so, but you know,here's the thing.
I let's finish on this.
SPEAKER_05 (34:25):
You're gonna reverse psychology me on this, aren't
you?
You're gonna try to.
SPEAKER_03 (34:28):
I won't, because let's say, for example, I can't
think of a podcast, but justthink of a podcast that you
listen to.
If they try to pressure me indoing what they do, I'm like,
that's really great.
What do you do?
I ain't fucking doing that.
That's not me.
If you pressured me into doingsomething, and now I'm thinking
about the whole bonus or uh paidfeature of it, I respect you, so
(34:50):
that peer pressure meanssomething to me.
SPEAKER_05 (34:57):
You're working on me, you're working on me.
And you know, and Steve, I loveyou like a brother, and but I'm
just fuck you.
SPEAKER_03 (35:06):
No, that's the ultimate mark of respect.
I tell people if you tell me togo fuck myself, that means you
love me.
I'm good.
It's what people don't say.
SPEAKER_05 (35:13):
Do you still do you still have your counterboard
where you would have how manypeople have told you to fuck
off?
SPEAKER_03 (35:18):
Hell the fuck, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (35:20):
Excellent.
SPEAKER_03 (35:21):
January, like I know we're recording, this will be
out in February.
We're like nine days in inJanuary.
I already have three.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, BJ.
Well, Susan, always great tohave you on.
Let's make it a regular thingfor us to be on together.
SPEAKER_05 (35:40):
Absolutely.
And I just I love coming hereand just chatting with you and
getting more information out topeople who are listening.
And first responders, people inhelping professions, if you're
worried about buddies that aregoing to the therapist that you
want to go see, that may saysomething about how they trust
that person to listen to them.
(36:01):
That's my last word on that.
So think about it at the veryleast.
SPEAKER_03 (36:05):
I'd like I'm gonna finish on that because I think
that's great advice.
If you've got someone you likewho's seeing someone, maybe that
person is trustworthy.
That's a great way to put it andfinish this episode.
So thank you again.
We'll go why we'll go listen toyour podcast, we'll pay for it.
And then when you go on YouTube,I will be your first subscriber,
so we'll be good.
(36:26):
But Susan, I thank you so muchfor the time.
SPEAKER_05 (36:29):
Steve, I love you, kid.
Thank you so much for having meon here.
I'm always happy to come on andchat with you and get
information out.
And of course, you're gonna beback on my episodes.
SPEAKER_03 (36:37):
So we'll be seeing each other.
If I gotta meet your favoritechild, uh this completes episode
242.
I hope you guys enjoyed it.
And see me on the other side onepisode 243.
And thank you for your time,guys.
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