April 8, 2026 • 54 mins
Supervision used to be something you could reach for without fear or apology, and a lot of us built our careers on that kind of steady mentorship. Recording with Dennis Sweeney, Chris Gordon, Bob Cherney, Andy Kang, and Pat Rice, we get real about what’s changed in mental health and first responder support, and what it costs when clinicians and teams try to do complex work in isolation.
We dig into why the supervision relationship matters so much for crisis intervention, addiction recovery, and trauma work, especially when the cases are messy and the emotions run hot. We talk about therapeutic alliance, trust, and the small human moments that can shift everything: slowing down a frantic consult, finding strengths instead of only problems, and using kindness and humor as legitimate clinical skills. We also challenge toxic language that creeps into high-stress systems, including the “frequent flyer” label, and we explore how dehumanizing terms don’t just hurt patients, they damage team culture and decision-making.
We zoom out to the world first responders work in now: constant cameras, public anger, and broad generalizations that treat individuals like symbols. The through-line is simple and demanding: stay human, keep wondering why, and build a network that can hold you up when the work gets heavy.
If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with someone on your team, and leave a review so more first responders and clinicians can find it.
We are a first responder owned company looking to get first responders in the best mental shape.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action with Steve Beesman.
This is the pumpcast dedicatedto first responder mental
health, helping police, miners,EMS, disc mentors, and
paramedics create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_05 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to this will come
out in April, but we'rerecording in February, and we
tried to record in January.
And every single time we've hada snow emergency in the state of
Massachusetts.
So we haven't been able to gostudio.
So I suggested let's do Zoomagain one more time with this
great group of guys that youguys have met before many, many
(00:51):
times.
And this is the mental men.
I want to welcome Dennis, Chris,Bob, Andrew, and Pat.
How are you doing, guys?
SPEAKER_03 (01:00):
Good, Steve.
Thank you.
The Blizzard of 26.
That's what we're recording inright now.
SPEAKER_05 (01:06):
And that's what is going to be a great memory.
And you know, the whole loss ofCanada and hockey twice will
fade away by the time this comesout.
But I really, you know, what'sinteresting is that I hadn't had
the mental man in a while, andwe're looking at May and
Singularity in May to recordbecause we're going to get
screwed either way if we dothrough hurricane season or
blizzard season.
(01:27):
But we will go back to thestudio.
I promise everyone's going tosee that because that's
something I've wanted to do.
I know everyone's beenintroduced quickly before, but
let's do it again just in casewe have some new viewers.
And if you are new, please likeand subscribe to my channel,
Resilience Development inAction.
So, Dennis, you want to go aquick intro?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
All right, Dennis Sweeney, LMHC.
I have a private practice andprimarily focus on addiction and
recovery, but it's a generalmental health practice.
SPEAKER_05 (01:56):
Always happy to see Dennis.
I still have your office,Dennis.
It's almost the same as it usedto be.
So I'm keeping it clean.
SPEAKER_07 (02:03):
Chris, your turn.
My name is Chris Gordon.
I'm a psychiatrist.
I am 99% retired, but for manyyears I was very active in
community psychiatry, and uhit's still very close to my
heart.
SPEAKER_05 (02:20):
And as I we did in pre-interview, I don't want to
I'd be remiss if I didn'tmention that in Massachusetts,
the police and state police havebeen trained on mental health.
Thank you to Chris Gordon andSarah Abbott for pushing that a
few years ago, and it'shappening right now.
So thanks, Chris.
Bob, your turn.
SPEAKER_06 (02:39):
Hi, my name's Bob Cherney.
I'm a clinical psychologist andalso a licensed alcohol and drug
counselor.
I have a private practice atthis point.
But like Chris, I've spent,well, 24 years in community
mental health, in addition to myprivate practice.
And I enjoyed all of it.
It's a matter of so at thispoint, I'm uh semi-retired and
(03:04):
still enjoying a couple of daysa week in the work.
SPEAKER_05 (03:06):
So Bob still does my therapy every couple of months
at the Depot Street Tavern inMilford Mass.
Shout out.
I don't get any money for this,but if you want to send money,
please do.
Andy, your turn.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Hey, Andy Kang, L-I-C-S-W, trained under all of
these fine gentlemen here on thescreen.
Have also a private practicespecializing in addiction and
recovery, also working withprofessionals on those issues.
And more recently, a mentalhealth advocate with the courts.
(03:42):
So doing more of that worklately.
SPEAKER_05 (03:45):
Oh, I'll be very interested in hearing more about
that.
That's a that's that's a veryimportant job.
SPEAKER_03 (03:51):
Pat, your last but not least.
I'm Pat Rice.
I'm a licensed mental healthcounselor, and I've done just
about everything in dualdiagnosis, institutional work,
medical institutions, academicinstitutions.
I'm in a limited privatepractice now, and I do um
forensic work for the uh forsome of the courts and for the
(04:14):
registry of motor vehiclesoften.
And I do in my private work,it's mostly around spiritual
development and end-of-lifethings and a lot of grief and
loss.
Family grief, family loss.
But I also have help people todie actually.
And it's a it's about asinteresting and sacred a path as
(04:35):
I found in this in thisprofession.
So and the guy below me on myscreen, Dennis, is the guy that
trained me.
So send all the complaints tohim.
SPEAKER_05 (04:46):
Welcome, gentlemen.
And you know, I also would beremiss to not let people know
that I contacted Pat last week,actually, because I was going to
an AA meeting where one of themy clients got his tenure coin.
And I'm like, how am I supposedto act?
Because I know nothing aboutthat stuff.
So Pat helped me outtremendously, which I really
appreciate.
(05:07):
But you know, there's a lot ofthings that you guys brought up
in just your intro that I'd loveto talk about.
But maybe we can start off withsomething fairly easy.
We talked about supervisionpre-interview, and one of the
things that we mentioned here,and again, if again, please
write to us if you have anyquestions.
But we have definitely seen ashift from supervision being
(05:29):
something that's really readilyavailable in our mental health
world and even into the policingworld sometimes that has changed
tremendously to turning to otherpeople and mostly AI to get some
of that support.
So I don't know where you wantto start about supervision, how
it used to be and how it is, butI think that there's been such a
significant shift because I knewand I still know that tomorrow
(05:51):
morning I have a problem with acase.
All the gentlemans on thisscreen, I can call them up and
say, hey, listen, I need a quickconsult.
And there's no like ifs, ands,or buts about it.
And now I get a lot of youngerpeople who come in and contact
me and say, Steve, I'm sorry tobother you.
And I'm like, what do you meanbothering me?
They're not used to thementorship stuff.
(06:12):
So I don't know who wants tostart on that because we're all
like kind of mentors and you areall my mentors.
And then, Andy, I appreciate yousaying you train me.
I think we've been mutualsupport for many years.
So I don't think that there'sone over the other.
Thank you, though.
So, where do you see the shift?
Where do you think that like Iyou were we were talking about
how we you guys all workedtogether for a long period of
(06:32):
time in a specific hospital, andyou had kind of like that going
all the time, and now it'schanged.
And Pat says that you Pat, yousaid earlier that you know, when
we were privately talking, thatsomeone, you know, who works at
a particular place had to callyou for support and supervision.
SPEAKER_03 (06:49):
I've actually I used to pay for my own supervision
while I was actually gettingsupervision.
I couldn't get enough of it.
And because of the nature ofdual diagnosis, it's complex at
the very least.
And I needed I needed a lot ofhelp.
The the substance abuse piececame more naturally to me.
And it's the the some of themore esoteric psychiatric stuff,
(07:14):
which if you're dealing withthese disorders, you deal with a
lot of trauma, a lot of forms ofDID and personality constructs
that are very difficult, and andit's hard to see what you're
actually looking looking at.
And I remember when we had ourour uh in-person peer
supervision group in Dennis'soffice, some of the formulations
(07:36):
that people come up with, Andy.
I mean, his his his ability tohave psychiatric formulations
and and to give me a newperspective on a difficult
client was was remarkable.
And so I I miss that.
I I can't imagine doing goodpsychotherapy, long-term
psychotherapy with complexcases, people that are really
(07:58):
wounded, um, if you don't havethat type of other perspective.
So if newer clinicians now arefinding it in this format or
whatever, or in some utilizationof AI, I've always been hoping
that AI actually was would behelpful and not an artifact to
this process.
Um I and I said earlier that I Itrained grad students, as
(08:22):
everybody here has for sometime, and I still have students
that call me up periodicallywith questions.
The ones that are in doingclinical stuff often.
And I say the same thing, you'renot bothering me any more than
as everyone knows that I'm in inrecovery, is that when people
that I mentor in recovery uhcall my mentor, a long-term
(08:44):
mentor whom everybody here knowsand used to work with, used to
say, Stop apologizing forbothering me.
He's you know, the uh the spiritof this is that we help somebody
else by asking them to help us.
We teach most of what we need tolearn.
And at the very least, if you'recalling me up and you're all in
the dither, I'm really gratefulI'm not in a dither anymore.
(09:06):
So you're helping me.
You know, so but I'm hopefulthat that I've taught every
every student I have, be jealousof supervision, get your own
network.
I've talked about this group.
You know, it's not just man, wehad a co-ed group.
Uh I still I still see peoplethat you know the part of that.
We we get together regularlyjust to just to connect, but
(09:28):
often it is more of a mutualsupervision society or network.
I just can't imagine doing thiswork well without it.
That would be my my uh point.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
I tell everybody, sorry to sorry to interrupt, but
thank you, Pat, for thatcompliment.
I I tell anybody who is a youngclinician that you must have
your own therapist and you musthave your own supervisor.
If you have to pay for it or youknow get it somehow, you have to
(10:03):
get it.
The good news is that you canactually write that stuff off if
you're a private practitionerand get some money back on both
of those things because they arepart of the job, and it is very
difficult to do this job inisolation, if not impossible,
and you need those additionaleyes.
(10:24):
The thing about using assistedsupervision or other things that
AI might be providing is thatit's lacking maybe the
fundamental piece of supervisionitself, which is the connection
with your supervisor.
With and and an AI can onlyregurgitate what it takes out of
(10:49):
all of the words that have everbeen said on the internet, and
it can't create anythingoriginal, which is what a person
can do.
A person can hear yourinterpretation of a story, of a
narrative, and add to that andgive you something that's
(11:09):
deductive from what you'reproviding that's additional.
I think an AI has trouble doingthat, and you see that in the
product.
You know, when I'm talking tosomeone, as we go through the
conversation, as we go throughthis podcast, we evolve our
conversation.
(11:30):
It goes to places that we didn'texpect, and we learn new things
from that.
I just think that thesupervision relationship has
that potential every time.
And I don't know if an AI isgonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_05 (11:45):
No, there's a lot of points you're making that I
agree with.
The AI is can be beneficial toyour practice in certain ways,
but will not be helpful in otherways, which is absolutely true.
Talking to a human being is soimportant, and the reason why I
jumped in here is that Iremember really like when I
worked on the crisis team, Iremember our work, but when I
(12:05):
was on the crisis team, I wouldstill apologize, even though
Chris was on call at two o'clockin the morning to consult with a
case.
And Chris would be like, Don'tapologize, tell me what's going
on.
And if I went too fast, Chriswould always go to me, Steve,
take your time, tell me slowly,because I we had we had another
(12:26):
psychiatrist and love her too,but for her, the presentation
had to be 30 seconds and let'smake a decision.
So with Chris, it was like morethoughtful, more like
analytical, and he brought methe points of views that I never
thought of.
And Chris, I I don't know if youhave anything to add to that,
but I want to give you thatlittle bit of thank you for
teaching me in that way, too.
SPEAKER_07 (12:48):
Thank you, Steve.
Um, you know, as I'm listening,I'm reflecting on all the years
of this work, and it seems to methat there are two uh skill sets
that uh we want to foster andnurture in young clinicians.
And the first has to do withcrisis management.
(13:09):
That that was also my always myfirst love.
I loved working in emergencyrooms.
I I felt like a a person incrisis is uh in some ways not at
their A game because they'rereally stressed.
But at the same time, there's athere's there's the potential
for openness.
And it's also a situation inwhich a little love goes a long
(13:33):
way.
So just not being an asshole isa tremendous step in the right
direction, and it uh it opens uptremendous possibilities.
So I think especially for ourfirst responder colleagues,
they're there's they're doing animpossible job, but at the same
(13:55):
time, we want them to rememberthey're doing a sacred job.
And there's a there's thepotential for real growth and
planting seeds and and andcreating positive change.
So that's that's one set of uhskills.
The the the second set ofskills, which is uh in some ways
a lot more difficult, is whenthe crisis is over and the
(14:18):
person is looking back on theirlife and can see that there's a
lot of trouble, a lot of misery.
And how do we how do we fosterchange?
How do we create a relationshipin which uh the the recurrent
patterns in the person's lifecan actually be replaced by
(14:39):
something new and different?
And that is a a beautiful partof the art of our work.
And uh that's where in in bothsituations supervision is
absolutely essential because thethe in my experience at least
the changing deep-seatedpatterns becomes possible when
(15:02):
the person feels deeply, deeplyunderstood, heard, held,
understood.
And that's that is a great art.
And you know, I look back on mycareer and I think, oh my god,
but you know, in the beginning Iwas just kind of stumbling along
so much of the time.
But uh over the years of doingthis work and treating people
(15:27):
with love, treating with peoplewith empathy, I supervisors can
really be a tremendous help.
And it's a shame that uh and Iand I think AI is no substitute
for it.
So that that that's my twocents.
I agree.
Thank you, Chris.
Oh, let me just say one otherthing.
The other thing about AI is itloves to blow smoke up your ass.
(15:50):
Yes.
You know, it'll tell you thegreatest thing since slice of
bread, and oh how you're you'reso brilliant and that's so
insightful.
You know, and maybe some of itis, but really it's so
syncophic.
SPEAKER_06 (16:04):
You really gotta take it with a grain of salt.
Yeah.
It's an interesting kind of proprocess, and I appreciate your
your comments, Chris, becauseheard, held, and understood, you
know, to respect thevulnerability of the person
you're with and to attempt tohelp them down a path toward
(16:26):
some sort of change or health.
I mean, it's it's it is an art.
And sometimes when I have peoplecome in from certain programs,
uh graduate students, and theyhave a lot of books and things
that they can sh, you know,show.
Well, I'll just look it up in mybook and then I'll I'll give the
(16:46):
questionnaire to this person.
There's nothing wrong with thatper se.
But I usually end I usually endup saying, well, what happens if
they decide they don't want todo that?
You know, the relationship iskey.
And the relationship is in mybook the number one thing that
you know, the therapeuticalliance, however you want to
conceptualize that, is primaryin the healing factors.
(17:10):
And I really think that empathy,as Dennis, you brought it up
earlier, and trying to figureout how we can respect people
during that crisis time and whenwhen they actually are, as much
as they're in pain, they'rethey're also open, I think, to
(17:32):
some sort of solution.
Because if they're coming in andsitting with us, there's still
some hope.
And I think that's really animportant thing.
And sometimes we have to holdthe hope for people.
But you know, this group herehas seen so much.
But I also think that for me,the relationship is really
important.
You can have technique, you canhave strategies, but I think
(17:54):
that ultimately the person hasto trust you first.
And that's one of the thingsI've seen over the years, over
the decades, that some peoplewill take a while to open up to
you.
And three four three quite along time.
Let me just say that.
And all of a sudden you starthearing about the the trauma
that they had when they wereliving in another country and
(18:16):
their mother, you know, was goneand their ants were beating
them.
I mean, the trauma issues startto emerge because of the shame
and because of the the fear thatpeople hold decades after it
happens.
But I just think that trust isreally an essential piece of
this.
SPEAKER_05 (18:34):
Yeah.
And I and I think that, youknow, I'll I want to turn to
Dennis too about this, but forthose who are listening to
Resilience Development inAction, what we're talking about
supervision goes as much forsupervisors in the field of
policing, of fire, of EMT,paramedic dispatch.
And the other part too is all ofthem are individuals.
(18:55):
And when you I'll alwaysremember the the EMTs and the
paramedics who used to come to agroup home in which I worked at.
And the firefighters and theparamedics and the EMTs that
would come in in our group homewould be so sympathetic.
And in a way that was difficultbecause they saw them so often.
But at the same time, when theydeveloped that empathy, that
(19:17):
sympathy to talk to the clients,the client, even in crisis, had
full trust and like, let's geton the garney, let's get going,
or hey, let's calm down, let'ssee what we can do, because they
used empathy and sympathy in thefield in order to avoid a
longer-term crisis.
So this is like when I just wantto mention before I turn to you,
Dennis, that what we're talkingabout here also applies to any
(19:39):
type of policing, fire,dispatch, even corrections to a
certain extent, too.
Dennis, anything to add to allthis?
SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
You know, one of the primary aspects of when I was
doing supervision with peoplewas to try and help them and
continue to reinforce in myself.
Where do you find the balancebetween sharing of yourself and
sort of leaving yourself out ofthe picture in a healthy way?
(20:10):
And I guess uh I've done this anumber of times over the years
where I'm not quite sure why Iwant to share this, but
something has been powerfulenough in my mind that I want to
share it.
And it's sort of Chris,following up on something that
you said that uh thankfully it's20 years now.
But 20 years ago I had a heartattack.
(20:31):
And shortly after I got homefrom the hospital, I started to
feel similar symptoms.
And thankfully, it it was notanother heart attack.
It was just a shoulder issue.
But I got to the emergency roomand I went in by ambulance, and
I got to the emergency room, andI was I was embarrassed, not
(20:54):
sure if I should be there,didn't and I was just sort of in
that crisis mode.
And the two two things that Iremember significantly, one was
one of the nurses, she I wasdescribing to her what happened,
and she said, Well, good foryou.
You listened to what they toldyou when you were in the
hospital.
And then later on, I was I waslaying on the the gurney, and I
(21:17):
had a rat's nest of tubing allover my face.
And because they weredisconnecting me from stuff.
And the EMT just sort of lookeddown and smiled at me and said,
I really should take a pictureof this.
It was just it it just helped meto get through that
circumstance.
And that's part of whatsupervision does too, is it
(21:40):
helps you to stay, helps you tolearn how to figure out how to
stay human in the process.
So again, I'm that was just sortof coming blasting into my head
as you were talking, Chris.
SPEAKER_03 (21:55):
I I would add one piece to that, because most of
my hospital career for Years wasin psych triage and training
students in the emergency room.
And I remember the day I had awhat turned out to be a fairly
benign vertigo attack at thegym, and I got an ambulance ride
to my own emergency room.
You know, and I was a bit of astar that day, but I was treated
(22:17):
exactly like I would hope apatient would be treated.
And I wasn't getting any specialtreatment because I'd watch
these people work on the otherside, not on the psych side, but
on the medical side.
And I remember complimentingeverybody and and and it
reinforced something that I usedto say to when the when training
nursing students and and NPstudents, when the really bright
(22:40):
ones at the end, I'd say anymore questions than they're
generally asked when I don'tknow what to do next.
What's the go-to thing?
When I really want to be helpfulbut I don't know what to do.
And all I could think to say wasjust be kind.
Kindness.
You know, you you're gonna meetpeople on the worst day of their
lives and family members on theworst day of their lives.
(23:00):
Now I was trained by, as you allknow, by a chaplain, you know,
so I had a had a the pastoralcare chip in me and did a lot of
that work actually as well.
But I remember how kindly I wastreated.
And in an in an emergency roomsituation, some kind soul that
brings you a warm blanket, oh mygoodness, there is nothing
(23:21):
better.
But they do it, you know, theyjust know they know how to their
comfort measures at that point,that they're treating a human
being that has some symptoms,not a constellation of symptoms.
And back in the day, I've seenattendings that would sing in
the hallway to their gaggle ofinterns and and residents, you
know, we're gonna go into 308and see the gallbladder.
(23:43):
To which I I was leaving, havingtalked to the woman that had the
gallbladder.
I said, No, that's Mrs.
Smith.
She's the one with thegallbladder.
You know, and I remember onestudent behind the attending,
you know, the student just wentlike this one.
You know, whoa.
But it's I I I always try to toI'll say this last thing is that
(24:06):
in my in my recovery fellowship,there is one line that is spoken
relating to online meetings.
And it says that whether it'sonline or in person, what we do
is we speak the language of theheart in all its power and
simplicity.
And I when I heard that thefirst time, I said, that's what
(24:27):
I've been trying to teach, isthat we're treating people that
are that are wounded andvulnerable.
And if I'm gonna have any chanceto make an alliance with them,
uh Chris's words were beautiful,they have to be respected and
held, and and and it is sacredwork that we do.
I've always felt that.
I think I've been able tocommunicate that, but on the
(24:50):
other hand, I used to gettreated all the time in my own
emergency room, I you know,because that was the nearest one
to where I lived.
And I I always accept the samekind of care I always thought
that I would give.
And so I think that's a goodparadigm if you if it treat
people like you'd like to betreated is is the oldest one.
And I try to teach my studentsthat uh the second rule of of my
(25:13):
mentor was the silver rule afterthe golden rule, and that was to
treat yourself as nice as thepeople you really love.
SPEAKER_07 (25:21):
And sometimes I think your your your advice is
extremely wise.
Be kind above all else.
All else.
And I I also would just sharethat as I look back over my
career, I feel like one of theskills that I developed over
time was the ability to findstrengths in the other person.
(25:44):
You know, as as as clinicalprofessionals, we're trained to
find problems, we're trying toformulate problems and problems
and problems.
But it's the strengths that thatwe uh can find in the other
person that that are thebuilding blocks of alliance.
And if it takes a little humoror a blanket, that it's those
(26:09):
are wonderful.
But also recognizing thatsomebody who's really difficult
in their own from their ownpoint of view, they they're
practicing a kind of integrity,and being able to join with the
healthy part, the the strengthpart of the other person is
absolutely key.
SPEAKER_05 (26:31):
And I think that that's what you used to bring to
me in my when I consulted withyou.
What are the strengths of thishuman being?
What are the strengths that youcan do?
Because I again, I you know,when you start on a crisis team,
you know certain things, but youdon't know what you don't know.
And for me, I thought that thegoal of the crisis team is to
put everyone in the hospital,which apparently it's not.
(26:52):
And and obviously nowadays, Itry to avoid the hospital as
much as I can for my clients,for anyone I know, because we
want to keep them in thecommunity.
And that's a lot of the Chrisand what I learned from that
agency that really comesthrough.
Now I'm gonna throw a I'm gonnathrow a nice little grenade here
because I want to do it onpurpose because this happens to
(27:13):
first responders, certainlyhappened on the crisis team, and
we saw this in in communitymental health.
And I know this is a dirty termfor some people, but I'm gonna
do it anyway.
What do we do with thesefrequent flyers who don't want
the help?
And if you go on YouTube, I putquotations here.
They don't want the help.
Why are we gonna treat them likehumans?
They've been here 20 times,they've been here 15 times,
(27:33):
they've been through 17clinicians.
I'm throwing a grenade purposelybecause this is something that
happens both in our field and inthe first responder world.
So I don't know who wants totake this grenade and try to
like diffuse it, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
So, what comes to mind, Steve, is that I remember
what the an experience when Iwas doing inpatient addiction
and recovery.
Person had come in for it, itwas approximately his hundredth
detox, and the person stayedsober from that point on.
SPEAKER_03 (28:05):
When I was at uh the clinical coordinator at the old
Framingham detox, there was awoman in recovery that I knew in
Framingham, and she was 20 yearssober and was helping women all
of the time.
An amazing soul.
And I doing an MIS thing in 1990for the state.
I had to I pulled charts atrandomly.
I pulled her chart, and she'donly been treated at the at the
(28:28):
Framingham detox.
And the last time she was therewas her 333rd admission.
Wow.
They were getting they didn'tknow enough in those days that
they were basically creating abenzodiazepine dependency
because they'd re-admit peopleum so frequently.
But 333 detoxes, and that's whatit took.
(28:49):
I knew I knew her as a soberperson 20 years.
SPEAKER_06 (28:53):
But we're talking about hope here.
I mean trying to keep hopealive, so to speak, to you know,
to paraphrase Jesse Jackson.
And not giving up.
Yeah, and not not giving up onthe person and allowing yourself
the patience and the empathy totry in the middle of a very busy
(29:16):
ER, you know, a lot of times, tohave some space, allow some
space, hold some space for aperson like this.
And I used to work at a placecalled Mount Pleasant Hospital
in Lynn, and and uh Kristenwould know this place.
It was in the 80s, and when Ithink you may have been over at
Lynn Hospital, Chris.
(29:37):
Yeah, but yeah.
And I heard about you.
And the other psychiatrist wouldcome to up and do rounds with
us, and uh it was fun.
But the you know, I the some ofthe folks, one of this in
particular one guy who workedfor, I'll just say, in in the
the trades, you know, he had hehe had an appointment every June
(29:58):
and he'd come in for two weeks.
And I I sat down with him andit's like, what's going on?
And he goes, Well, this is my50th.
And I said, Really?
What's what what what what doyou think it is that keeps you
cold and keeps you coming?
And he goes, Well, I you know, II come I kind of want to dry out
once in a while just so I cankind of get a perspective on
(30:19):
things again.
But then I go back to it.
And in any event, he stayed alittle longer this time, did
some actual work, and he nevercame back after that.
He never he never needed itafter that because I contacted
him.
And but you never know when it'sgonna happen, when it's gonna
take, you know.
And so I just think that we andI it having patience for people
(30:44):
that are are stressful for us,that's a whole nother thing.
And I think the the firstresponders must run into this an
awful lot.
And the hostility and the angerand so a lot of that's a defense
for people.
But we have the luxury astherapists of being able to sit
with it and examine it, exploreit, and maybe get underneath it
(31:05):
with the person.
But they don't, from what I cantell.
They've got to like manage andtry to contain.
And I think that must be awfullydifficult.
And I give I give them all thecredit in the world.
SPEAKER_07 (31:15):
I'd also like to make a comment, though, about
the frequent flyer thing,because language like that is
really fucking toxic.
You know, and it it is one ofthe things I loved about working
in advocates is that we had theadvocates' way, which was not
followed universally, but we setout the philosophy that we're
(31:36):
gonna treat everybody with deeprespect.
And the terms like frequentflyer, they just drive me crazy.
And when and you when somebodysays it, you don't want to call
them out in public and embarrassthem and et cetera.
But when when when terms likethat are not uh responded to,
(31:58):
they just it just creates moretoxicity.
It's like a germ that uh itneeds to be eradicated.
And it takes a it takes uhcultural leadership and
supervision to recognize thatterms like frequent flyer are
(32:19):
are slurs.
You know, they're they'rethey're slurs and they're they
are very, very damaging to uhthe the person who's being
described, but also it'sdamaging to the to the body
politic of the team.
SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
It's dehumanizing.
To your point earlier, Chris,about staying human and and
being able to relate to aperson, once you've labeled them
such a term, you've alreadycreated a distance and a
separation that now you have togulf and and you've created
(33:01):
potentially distrust in thatperson.
Yeah.
You know, somebody who'srepeatedly showing up is showing
up.
You know, I'm glad you're herebecause maybe this is the time.
SPEAKER_05 (33:23):
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(33:45):
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Now, right back to the episode.
Yeah, and I and you know, Chris,I purposely tossed that grenade
because I knew you felt aboutit.
I I would I do not use that termanymore because we've had this
(34:31):
private conversation outside ofhere, but wanted to make sure.
And you know, we haven't heardfrom Dennis, but you know,
again, like I hear so manystories in regards to, you know,
I would tell you that there's athe story that I would tell you
is out of parole where I had aguy who was on, we'll say at
over five DUIs.
I cannot recall his number.
(34:53):
And he was on parole for 30days.
He was already drinking withinthe first few days, and they
said, You're the substance abusecoordinator, Steve.
Fix him.
All right, I'll be fun.
So I'm sitting with the guywho's under the influence.
They don't want to send him backto jail, which is, you know, the
good thing about parole isthere's gonna be it's been a
shift in the it at that time tonot send back people and get
(35:16):
them treatment or whatever.
And while I'm talking to theguy, the guy says to me, like,
what's that?
And it was a little woodenBuddha.
And I was like, Well, that'sBuddha.
And he was like, What is Buddhadoing?
Let's talk a little bit aboutBuddhism.
He's like, Can I have it?
I said, Are you gonna staysober?
And he's like, Yeah, I would.
I'm like, All right, see you ina week, take the Buddha, and
we'll be good.
Well, I know he was only onparole for what four weeks after
(35:38):
that, or whatever it was, but hestayed sober over that little
wooden Buddha, and that's whythat's the example I give to
some of my officers andfirefighters or EMTs or
paramedics.
Like, what about this guy?
I'm like, this guy stays soberover a wooden Buddha.
You'll never know the impact youcan have with someone over
something as simple as beinghuman with them.
(36:00):
And so he, I don't know where heis today.
I gotta admit, I don't know whatthe guy's doing today.
And if you've been on listeningto my podcast, this has happened
many times.
But I I I that's the story Ishared.
This happened to me like over 20years ago, and I still remember
to this day, even when I getfrustrated with the repeat
presentation of the same thing.
SPEAKER_03 (36:20):
That was not a uh inanimate Buddha, that was a
transferential self-objectiveview, Steve.
That was you he brought youhome.
I like that.
That's a that was it.
Good friend.
Yeah.
I have uh when I worked ininpatient and then in a day
hospital, the thing that painedme the most, and I can't
(36:42):
remember which supervisor itwas, or whether it was my old
mentor, Dick Dick Fleck, or not,but I remember it pained me
because a patient would becoming in and I'd be on the unit
or on, you know, uh the dayhospital, and they were they
were coming back, you know, forafter a period of time or not
very much time, and they wouldthey would see me in wince and
(37:03):
look like they wanted to run outthe door and hide.
And I would try to engage them,and and and someone told me, you
know, I've I've stolen so muchfrom all of the good clinicians,
I can't remember or hear them.
But the way to respond, it workslike a charm, is that I would
just say to them, thank you somuch for coming back.
And they said, Well, I should Isaid, what you learned the last
(37:24):
time was enough to get you backhere and not have to stay out
there.
Everybody gets everybody stopsdrinking and has a drinking
problem.
Some of us are lucky enough tobe alive when it happens.
You're alive, that's all thatmatters here.
If you got a heartbeat, there'shope.
So let's just get to work.
Figure out what you need to add,what you haven't been doing.
(37:45):
I can't remember who told methat.
Could have been Dennis.
I I I can't remember.
Because but I remember thatpained me so much that they were
trying to run away from mebecause I was a mirror in which
they saw shame.
A bigger is that was not what Iwanted to be.
SPEAKER_06 (37:58):
That's exactly, yeah.
That's why they winced.
They felt the shame.
SPEAKER_02 (38:02):
Oh, yeah.
You know, I I think that thatpeople that are listening this
to this today party to uh Ithink a significantly important
part of supervision, and thatthere's two aspects to
supervision.
We we didn't do a casepresentation today, which is one
aspect of supervision, whichtalks about what you think about
(38:23):
a situation, what you thinkabout a circumstance.
What we've been party to thismorning is that part of
supervision that helps you tolook at and pay attention to how
you think.
And I think how you think for meover the years, in uh sort of
assessing whether I I would liketo refer a somebody to a
(38:46):
particular clinician, it's asmuch in understanding how they
think as opposed to what theythink.
And that's the I think therichness that that I appreciate
being part of this supervisiondynamic this morning because it
feels good.
SPEAKER_05 (39:02):
Agreed, agreed.
And I think that that's what itis too, is that one of the
things, the aspects that youdidn't mention about supervision
that I absolutely love aboutthis group is that I don't have
any filter in regards to what'sgoing on.
I don't worry about what I'mgonna say is right or wrong.
I'm looking for feedback.
And if I'm wrong, it's not donein a judgmental way or in a mean
(39:25):
way, it's done in a like Steve,maybe think about this or
whatever.
I think that that's the otheraspect that, you know, I would
honestly say all five of youhave contributed to me because
once I didn't feel like I like Ihad to be saying the right thing
every single moment.
And then after that, it was easyto say because if I was wrong,
someone would say it in arespectful way.
(39:46):
And you know, Steve, maybe thinkabout it differently.
But ultimately, that's what thisgroup has always done for me, is
done it with respect, even if Iwas wrong.
And I think that's the otherpart too, is that we have a
right to not know everything.
And I think that that sometimesis lost.
I don't know if I I I you knowthe other part too is you the
the part of supervision that'salways been very helpful.
(40:08):
And I I want to shout out mygroup that I do of twice a week
with my first responders.
There's two rules in the group.
We can't repeat anything that'ssaid in the room, which is you
know standard.
And then the second one is noapologies.
And that's because some peoplewill bring up their story and,
like, I'm sorry I'm taking somuch time, or I'm sorry this is
blankety blank.
And I would be like, and it'sfunny because all the group
(40:30):
members who have been there forany like amount of time, as soon
as someone apologizes, itbecomes like almost
aggressively, stop apologizing.
And I like that because this isexactly right.
It's like we have a problem, westruggle with something, we got
to be able to say it withoutapologies because there's
nothing wrong with having anissue.
SPEAKER_06 (40:48):
You know, that issue of trust.
I keep on thinking about it inthe context of the first
responders and what they areencountering not only in their
day-to-day work, but with withinthe, you know, and through the
media of like how are firstresponders being treated?
How are what it what is thethreat to them above and beyond
(41:09):
the people that they're tryingto help or trying to contain is
the word that comes to my mind.
But it's really just, you know,I'm we're trying to figure out a
way to get to a point where thisis not a danger anymore.
And I Steve, you may probablyknow this as well as anybody,
but it must be an awfully hardthing when you're going to work
(41:31):
and you're trying to, you know,what's this day going to be
like?
You hear you have no idea.
And I'd be interested incomments.
SPEAKER_05 (41:38):
I'll make the I'll make the point right now and you
guys can react to it.
One of the things I did, I wentI did a uh presentation for
another hospital in the area,and they asked me, what's the
one thing you want the public toknow about our first responder
world?
And I said, here's the easy one.
If we see someone who happens tobe black steal a car and we say
(41:59):
all black people steal cars, wewould be sacrificed, we would be
judged for saying that.
A cop does something wrong,whether it's ice or anything
else in Minneapolis.
Why is the cop in Millis maskbeing treated like crap?
He didn't do anything, butthat's the same discrimination,
in my opinion, that we give tothe police that we say, no, no,
(42:22):
we can't do that to anybodyelse.
But then that's fine.
And I think that that's one ofthe things you talk about that
you talked about, Bob.
And I really think that maybe ifI can turn it to you guys, but
that's to me, that's like thisthe same amount of
discrimination, and they face itall the time.
And you know, imagine having ajob.
We talked about AI quicklyearlier.
Imagine having a job where yougo to any call and there's a
(42:46):
camera on your face every singletime.
Never mind some of those whohave the body cameras.
It's it's an amount and we don'thave that pressure in mental
health.
We don't have that pressure inpretty much any other job than
having them, you know, maybe acasino dealer.
I don't know.
But ultimately, what I'm sayingto you is that what do you guys
what's your reaction when I saysomething like it's the same
(43:08):
same type of discrimination,it's just a different point of
view.
SPEAKER_06 (43:12):
Well, you're lumping everyone into one basket, so to
speak, who is in that group,whether or not it's race,
religion, any kind of ethnicityor culture, and you're just
making an assumption thatthey're all alike.
And that's impossible.
It's it's it's demeaning andit's oversimplifying, and it's
(43:34):
and it's basically creating a pruh a rift between your feelings
about them and it'sover-generalizing.
And that's something that we doa lot in this country, I think,
too much but and and in and notjust our country.
But so how do we get past that?
How do we start to help peopleunderstand that?
(43:54):
And that's that's gonna takesome time, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (43:58):
Well, I think it's the same.
Problem as the labeling, thefrequent flyer label, in that
you're you're creating thisdivision and this separation.
And you know, it just the waythat a first responder has to
accept that their patient is ahuman being and treat them
(44:20):
accordingly, the first responderis also a human being, must be
treated accordingly.
And if you reduce that to anindividual basis, it's not hard
to see or or do.
But when you scope out into apolice force or a you know a
movement or something, now broadgeneralizations get applied, but
(44:45):
individuals feel that.
But bringing humanity bringingto each individual person is
actually not that hard.
And it's, I think, built intoall of us to do that.
It's it's all this noise thatneeds to be filtered out, and
(45:06):
maybe this is sort of fullcircle from where we started
about AI and social media andother things that influence us
to carry these opinions that arenot useful face to face.
They're not useful one-to-one.
And that's how I think that's agood way to know whether you're
on the right track or not.
(45:26):
Would I do this face to face?
Would I say that to this personif they were right in front of
me?
If the answer is no, then that'stelling you something.
SPEAKER_03 (45:36):
I think the full circle moment that I've
experienced with that, and Icould relate to all of that, and
it's all truth, is I had arecent obsession.
Is that somewhere in the firstof the year I I came across the
monks marching for peace, and Ibecame obsessed with it.
(45:56):
That's a fair statement becauseI was watching it every day,
just watching these gentlepeople going and attending to
everyone along the way.
Twenty miles a day.
People that came from SoutheastAsia, like most of these monks
were Vietnamese, they had neverseen snow, you know, and stuff,
I don't think.
And and they're walking intheir, you know, in their feet,
(46:17):
the their feet sometimes, and itwas extraordinary.
Because all along the way theywere they weren't looking for to
be applauded.
Actually, they this was asurprise that they were even
even so so famous, but they justwere attending.
They did what they always do.
And I'll just add one personalthing is that the mentor that
I've been talking about, my mymy mentor, the chaplain, was a
(46:40):
Dominican.
He was a wonderful minister, hewas a wonderful priest.
It broke his heart when thechurch scandal about pedophilia
came out.
He couldn't wear his Romancollar because people would
throw things at him.
Kind of like the Vietnam vetscoming home from horrors of war
and getting spit at at theairport in California.
(47:03):
You know, so it's there's apejorative uh influence in this
country that I think socialmedia has has created a lot
where people can sit there andtroll and and and just be vile,
if you will, faceless.
And I love your comment, Andy.
Would someone say it to someonein person?
These monks were the face ofwhat they stood for, which was
(47:25):
kindness.
As the Dalai Lama said, myreligion is not a religion, it's
kindness.
It's a philosophy.
We we try to treat peoplekindly.
And I think if we all I thinkthere's so much learning that
can be taken from that.
I became just enamored withthese gentle beings.
And it just reminded me of whywe're all here.
To take care of each other andto and to look look locally.
(47:48):
It's how can we be of of servicein some in some meaningful way?
And that would that thecreativity is supposed to in my
mind is supposed to be there.
What can I do next to be to beof use?
There's always something thatcan be done.
And I believe, and if I start bytaking care of me first, and
then then I'm in a good positionto do so.
(48:11):
So it was a little bit of a rantthere, I'm sorry, but I was
obsessed with them, and I stillam to a degree.
It was such a spiritual thing inmany ways.
It was very cathartic to mewatching those men march and the
effect they had on everybodyalong the way.
Especially the police.
You know, especially the firstresponders who were the guys in
(48:34):
the middle of winter with thebicycles out there, the the
police officers protecting them.
Because in what was it, in thefirst week, someone one of them
got lost a foot because of anaccident.
Someone I think was watchingthem and drove into them or
something.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, it was amazing.
It was just an amazing piece ofAmericana there, I thought.
SPEAKER_02 (48:53):
If if I remember correctly, part of the
advocate's mission statement wasfirst we listen.
And it it it occurs to me,Steve, as you ask your your
question, is that uh maybeanother aspect of that is first
we wonder why, versus saying,no, you shouldn't, or this is
(49:14):
what you should do.
And I think that that's becomingmore and more the case, is that
people are not wondering why.
They're just telling people whatthey should or shouldn't be
doing.
And I think that's another keyaspect to therapeutic process is
being able to look at it andsay, geez, I wonder why, as
opposed to no, you shouldn't.
SPEAKER_06 (49:36):
That goes into the trauma, a trauma kind of saying,
which is, you know, it used tobe we'd ask, and what's wrong
with you, and now we can askwhat happened to you.
And I just think it's a piece ofthat.
Yes, brilliant.
SPEAKER_03 (49:52):
Yeah, I really agree with that.
I heard something the othernight that I've never heard,
maybe all it's common knowledgeto all of you, but a fellow was
speaking about his therapistwho's who he because he was
worried, like a dozen people hadlost their jobs this week or
something.
That became the theme of thetrauma of the loss and the shock
and horror of that.
And this fellow said, I'm mypoor therapist, he listens to me
(50:14):
uh project fear and all of that,and I'm a bit of a
catastrophizer, and I labelmyself like that.
And and the therapist said, No,actually, you you've got PTSD.
And he said, Well, I know I gotPTSD.
And he said, No, not that kindof PTSD.
You have pre-trauma stressdisorder.
You're projecting, he said, Howmuch have you ever in your life
(50:38):
done tomorrow?
Today, you know, it's so it'sit's not taking my fear of what
could happen and then getallowing that to traumatize me
as well.
I just wanted to share thatbecause I I can't believe it,
but after this 40 years, that'sthe first time I've heard of
pre-traumatic stress disorder.
Has anyone else heard of that?
SPEAKER_05 (50:58):
Well, I never call it that.
What I do call it is a fortunetelling and from the CDT
process.
So when people tell me what'sgonna happen and what trauma, I
go, all right, guys, uh megamillions, or and if you're on
YouTube, you'll see it.
Just write down the numbers forme since you can see the future,
mega millions or Powerball, Idon't mind.
And then and when they theystart laughing, I go, okay, now
(51:21):
you you understand you cannotpredict the future, correct?
So stop trying to do so.
They all laugh because it's anice way to present it, but some
of them are so used to it, andlike, and now you're gonna hand
me the pad to tell me.
Yeah, so it's good that theyremember it that way.
And I think that the other parttoo is you talk about trauma, I
(51:43):
talk about humor.
And what I mean by that is inour group, you know, I talk talk
about how sometimes we talkabout trauma, we talk about
heart stories.
We spent 40 minutes laughingabout a certain event that
occurred, and I'm not gonnashare what it is because it's
gonna be out of place anyway,but we laughed about it in a
group for 40 minutes, and theguys stayed afterwards and
(52:04):
talked to each other for over anhour in the parking lot, just
chatting.
And so sometimes humor opens upthe ability to talk about harder
stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (52:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (52:14):
So, well, on that happy note, maybe we got an hour
already in.
So I'm gonna separate this intwo episodes again.
But any parting words fromanyone?
SPEAKER_03 (52:24):
Yes.
I just when we sit down likethis, you know, especially in
the midst of this thing today.
I'm so grateful that I I hadpower so I could be here.
I really love being a part ofthis, and and it just strikes me
today how much I love you guys.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (52:39):
It's I catch it, Pat.
Yeah, I agree a thousandpercent.
There's a warmth here, there'san intelligence, there's uh
wisdom, there's all thesewonderful things that it's not
easy to find sometimes.
SPEAKER_03 (52:51):
And despite what we're seeing, there's a lot of
humor in this group.
SPEAKER_05 (52:55):
Yeah.
I think that that's what that'swhat I love about that.
Pat, I love you.
I love you, Amy and Bob andDennis and Chris.
I want to make sure I said thattoo.
But I think that that's what itis, is we balance each other out
so well with all the experiencewe have.
The one thing that you I'll sayit differently than you said,
Bob, there are absolutely noegos in this room.
(53:16):
And we have all a little bit ofego, that's life.
But when we get all together, Ifeel like the everyone's ego
just disappears.
Feels good.
SPEAKER_06 (53:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I it feels safe here.
I it's it's it's interesting.
That you mentioned that, youknow, I I grew up in a family of
catastrophizers.
So I've I had to do a lot oftherapy to try to get past some
of that.
And even now it's uh I wastrained by a pro as a as a
child, yeah.
unknown (53:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (53:43):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (53:45):
Well, I want to thank everyone for coming again.
And we're gonna we're gonna geta small window in May, and we're
gonna absolutely do this again.
Very, very small window, butwe're gonna do this face to face
because we can't really recordwhile we're doing golf.
So that's a little harder.
That's true, yes.
Yeah.
You know, I think that myswearing would be out of
control.
(54:05):
But all joking aside, I want tothank you all, Dennis, Bob,
Andy, Chris, and Pat.
Thank you so much for coming onagain on Resilience Development
in Action.
And can't wait to do our nextinterview.
Steve, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_03 (54:18):
Yeah, thanks, Steve.
Me as well.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_00 (54:23):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to theprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, for assistance.
(54:47):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action with Steve Beesman.
This is the pumpcast dedicatedto first responder mental
health, helping police, miners,EMS, disc mentors, and
paramedics create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_05 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to this will come
out in April, but we'rerecording in February, and we
tried to record in January.
And every single time we've hada snow emergency in the state of
Massachusetts.
So we haven't been able to gostudio.
So I suggested let's do Zoomagain one more time with this
great group of guys that youguys have met before many, many
(00:51):
times.
And this is the mental men.
I want to welcome Dennis, Chris,Bob, Andrew, and Pat.
How are you doing, guys?
SPEAKER_03 (01:00):
Good, Steve.
Thank you.
The Blizzard of 26.
That's what we're recording inright now.
SPEAKER_05 (01:06):
And that's what is going to be a great memory.
And you know, the whole loss ofCanada and hockey twice will
fade away by the time this comesout.
But I really, you know, what'sinteresting is that I hadn't had
the mental man in a while, andwe're looking at May and
Singularity in May to recordbecause we're going to get
screwed either way if we dothrough hurricane season or
blizzard season.
(01:27):
But we will go back to thestudio.
I promise everyone's going tosee that because that's
something I've wanted to do.
I know everyone's beenintroduced quickly before, but
let's do it again just in casewe have some new viewers.
And if you are new, please likeand subscribe to my channel,
Resilience Development inAction.
So, Dennis, you want to go aquick intro?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
All right, Dennis Sweeney, LMHC.
I have a private practice andprimarily focus on addiction and
recovery, but it's a generalmental health practice.
SPEAKER_05 (01:56):
Always happy to see Dennis.
I still have your office,Dennis.
It's almost the same as it usedto be.
So I'm keeping it clean.
SPEAKER_07 (02:03):
Chris, your turn.
My name is Chris Gordon.
I'm a psychiatrist.
I am 99% retired, but for manyyears I was very active in
community psychiatry, and uhit's still very close to my
heart.
SPEAKER_05 (02:20):
And as I we did in pre-interview, I don't want to
I'd be remiss if I didn'tmention that in Massachusetts,
the police and state police havebeen trained on mental health.
Thank you to Chris Gordon andSarah Abbott for pushing that a
few years ago, and it'shappening right now.
So thanks, Chris.
Bob, your turn.
SPEAKER_06 (02:39):
Hi, my name's Bob Cherney.
I'm a clinical psychologist andalso a licensed alcohol and drug
counselor.
I have a private practice atthis point.
But like Chris, I've spent,well, 24 years in community
mental health, in addition to myprivate practice.
And I enjoyed all of it.
It's a matter of so at thispoint, I'm uh semi-retired and
(03:04):
still enjoying a couple of daysa week in the work.
SPEAKER_05 (03:06):
So Bob still does my therapy every couple of months
at the Depot Street Tavern inMilford Mass.
Shout out.
I don't get any money for this,but if you want to send money,
please do.
Andy, your turn.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Hey, Andy Kang, L-I-C-S-W, trained under all of
these fine gentlemen here on thescreen.
Have also a private practicespecializing in addiction and
recovery, also working withprofessionals on those issues.
And more recently, a mentalhealth advocate with the courts.
(03:42):
So doing more of that worklately.
SPEAKER_05 (03:45):
Oh, I'll be very interested in hearing more about
that.
That's a that's that's a veryimportant job.
SPEAKER_03 (03:51):
Pat, your last but not least.
I'm Pat Rice.
I'm a licensed mental healthcounselor, and I've done just
about everything in dualdiagnosis, institutional work,
medical institutions, academicinstitutions.
I'm in a limited privatepractice now, and I do um
forensic work for the uh forsome of the courts and for the
(04:14):
registry of motor vehiclesoften.
And I do in my private work,it's mostly around spiritual
development and end-of-lifethings and a lot of grief and
loss.
Family grief, family loss.
But I also have help people todie actually.
And it's a it's about asinteresting and sacred a path as
(04:35):
I found in this in thisprofession.
So and the guy below me on myscreen, Dennis, is the guy that
trained me.
So send all the complaints tohim.
SPEAKER_05 (04:46):
Welcome, gentlemen.
And you know, I also would beremiss to not let people know
that I contacted Pat last week,actually, because I was going to
an AA meeting where one of themy clients got his tenure coin.
And I'm like, how am I supposedto act?
Because I know nothing aboutthat stuff.
So Pat helped me outtremendously, which I really
appreciate.
(05:07):
But you know, there's a lot ofthings that you guys brought up
in just your intro that I'd loveto talk about.
But maybe we can start off withsomething fairly easy.
We talked about supervisionpre-interview, and one of the
things that we mentioned here,and again, if again, please
write to us if you have anyquestions.
But we have definitely seen ashift from supervision being
(05:29):
something that's really readilyavailable in our mental health
world and even into the policingworld sometimes that has changed
tremendously to turning to otherpeople and mostly AI to get some
of that support.
So I don't know where you wantto start about supervision, how
it used to be and how it is, butI think that there's been such a
significant shift because I knewand I still know that tomorrow
(05:51):
morning I have a problem with acase.
All the gentlemans on thisscreen, I can call them up and
say, hey, listen, I need a quickconsult.
And there's no like ifs, ands,or buts about it.
And now I get a lot of youngerpeople who come in and contact
me and say, Steve, I'm sorry tobother you.
And I'm like, what do you meanbothering me?
They're not used to thementorship stuff.
(06:12):
So I don't know who wants tostart on that because we're all
like kind of mentors and you areall my mentors.
And then, Andy, I appreciate yousaying you train me.
I think we've been mutualsupport for many years.
So I don't think that there'sone over the other.
Thank you, though.
So, where do you see the shift?
Where do you think that like Iyou were we were talking about
how we you guys all workedtogether for a long period of
(06:32):
time in a specific hospital, andyou had kind of like that going
all the time, and now it'schanged.
And Pat says that you Pat, yousaid earlier that you know, when
we were privately talking, thatsomeone, you know, who works at
a particular place had to callyou for support and supervision.
SPEAKER_03 (06:49):
I've actually I used to pay for my own supervision
while I was actually gettingsupervision.
I couldn't get enough of it.
And because of the nature ofdual diagnosis, it's complex at
the very least.
And I needed I needed a lot ofhelp.
The the substance abuse piececame more naturally to me.
And it's the the some of themore esoteric psychiatric stuff,
(07:14):
which if you're dealing withthese disorders, you deal with a
lot of trauma, a lot of forms ofDID and personality constructs
that are very difficult, and andit's hard to see what you're
actually looking looking at.
And I remember when we had ourour uh in-person peer
supervision group in Dennis'soffice, some of the formulations
(07:36):
that people come up with, Andy.
I mean, his his his ability tohave psychiatric formulations
and and to give me a newperspective on a difficult
client was was remarkable.
And so I I miss that.
I I can't imagine doing goodpsychotherapy, long-term
psychotherapy with complexcases, people that are really
(07:58):
wounded, um, if you don't havethat type of other perspective.
So if newer clinicians now arefinding it in this format or
whatever, or in some utilizationof AI, I've always been hoping
that AI actually was would behelpful and not an artifact to
this process.
Um I and I said earlier that I Itrained grad students, as
(08:22):
everybody here has for sometime, and I still have students
that call me up periodicallywith questions.
The ones that are in doingclinical stuff often.
And I say the same thing, you'renot bothering me any more than
as everyone knows that I'm in inrecovery, is that when people
that I mentor in recovery uhcall my mentor, a long-term
(08:44):
mentor whom everybody here knowsand used to work with, used to
say, Stop apologizing forbothering me.
He's you know, the uh the spiritof this is that we help somebody
else by asking them to help us.
We teach most of what we need tolearn.
And at the very least, if you'recalling me up and you're all in
the dither, I'm really gratefulI'm not in a dither anymore.
(09:06):
So you're helping me.
You know, so but I'm hopefulthat that I've taught every
every student I have, be jealousof supervision, get your own
network.
I've talked about this group.
You know, it's not just man, wehad a co-ed group.
Uh I still I still see peoplethat you know the part of that.
We we get together regularlyjust to just to connect, but
(09:28):
often it is more of a mutualsupervision society or network.
I just can't imagine doing thiswork well without it.
That would be my my uh point.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
I tell everybody, sorry to sorry to interrupt, but
thank you, Pat, for thatcompliment.
I I tell anybody who is a youngclinician that you must have
your own therapist and you musthave your own supervisor.
If you have to pay for it or youknow get it somehow, you have to
(10:03):
get it.
The good news is that you canactually write that stuff off if
you're a private practitionerand get some money back on both
of those things because they arepart of the job, and it is very
difficult to do this job inisolation, if not impossible,
and you need those additionaleyes.
(10:24):
The thing about using assistedsupervision or other things that
AI might be providing is thatit's lacking maybe the
fundamental piece of supervisionitself, which is the connection
with your supervisor.
With and and an AI can onlyregurgitate what it takes out of
(10:49):
all of the words that have everbeen said on the internet, and
it can't create anythingoriginal, which is what a person
can do.
A person can hear yourinterpretation of a story, of a
narrative, and add to that andgive you something that's
(11:09):
deductive from what you'reproviding that's additional.
I think an AI has trouble doingthat, and you see that in the
product.
You know, when I'm talking tosomeone, as we go through the
conversation, as we go throughthis podcast, we evolve our
conversation.
(11:30):
It goes to places that we didn'texpect, and we learn new things
from that.
I just think that thesupervision relationship has
that potential every time.
And I don't know if an AI isgonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_05 (11:45):
No, there's a lot of points you're making that I
agree with.
The AI is can be beneficial toyour practice in certain ways,
but will not be helpful in otherways, which is absolutely true.
Talking to a human being is soimportant, and the reason why I
jumped in here is that Iremember really like when I
worked on the crisis team, Iremember our work, but when I
(12:05):
was on the crisis team, I wouldstill apologize, even though
Chris was on call at two o'clockin the morning to consult with a
case.
And Chris would be like, Don'tapologize, tell me what's going
on.
And if I went too fast, Chriswould always go to me, Steve,
take your time, tell me slowly,because I we had we had another
(12:26):
psychiatrist and love her too,but for her, the presentation
had to be 30 seconds and let'smake a decision.
So with Chris, it was like morethoughtful, more like
analytical, and he brought methe points of views that I never
thought of.
And Chris, I I don't know if youhave anything to add to that,
but I want to give you thatlittle bit of thank you for
teaching me in that way, too.
SPEAKER_07 (12:48):
Thank you, Steve.
Um, you know, as I'm listening,I'm reflecting on all the years
of this work, and it seems to methat there are two uh skill sets
that uh we want to foster andnurture in young clinicians.
And the first has to do withcrisis management.
(13:09):
That that was also my always myfirst love.
I loved working in emergencyrooms.
I I felt like a a person incrisis is uh in some ways not at
their A game because they'rereally stressed.
But at the same time, there's athere's there's the potential
for openness.
And it's also a situation inwhich a little love goes a long
(13:33):
way.
So just not being an asshole isa tremendous step in the right
direction, and it uh it opens uptremendous possibilities.
So I think especially for ourfirst responder colleagues,
they're there's they're doing animpossible job, but at the same
(13:55):
time, we want them to rememberthey're doing a sacred job.
And there's a there's thepotential for real growth and
planting seeds and and andcreating positive change.
So that's that's one set of uhskills.
The the the second set ofskills, which is uh in some ways
a lot more difficult, is whenthe crisis is over and the
(14:18):
person is looking back on theirlife and can see that there's a
lot of trouble, a lot of misery.
And how do we how do we fosterchange?
How do we create a relationshipin which uh the the recurrent
patterns in the person's lifecan actually be replaced by
(14:39):
something new and different?
And that is a a beautiful partof the art of our work.
And uh that's where in in bothsituations supervision is
absolutely essential because thethe in my experience at least
the changing deep-seatedpatterns becomes possible when
(15:02):
the person feels deeply, deeplyunderstood, heard, held,
understood.
And that's that is a great art.
And you know, I look back on mycareer and I think, oh my god,
but you know, in the beginning Iwas just kind of stumbling along
so much of the time.
But uh over the years of doingthis work and treating people
(15:27):
with love, treating with peoplewith empathy, I supervisors can
really be a tremendous help.
And it's a shame that uh and Iand I think AI is no substitute
for it.
So that that that's my twocents.
I agree.
Thank you, Chris.
Oh, let me just say one otherthing.
The other thing about AI is itloves to blow smoke up your ass.
(15:50):
Yes.
You know, it'll tell you thegreatest thing since slice of
bread, and oh how you're you'reso brilliant and that's so
insightful.
You know, and maybe some of itis, but really it's so
syncophic.
SPEAKER_06 (16:04):
You really gotta take it with a grain of salt.
Yeah.
It's an interesting kind of proprocess, and I appreciate your
your comments, Chris, becauseheard, held, and understood, you
know, to respect thevulnerability of the person
you're with and to attempt tohelp them down a path toward
(16:26):
some sort of change or health.
I mean, it's it's it is an art.
And sometimes when I have peoplecome in from certain programs,
uh graduate students, and theyhave a lot of books and things
that they can sh, you know,show.
Well, I'll just look it up in mybook and then I'll I'll give the
(16:46):
questionnaire to this person.
There's nothing wrong with thatper se.
But I usually end I usually endup saying, well, what happens if
they decide they don't want todo that?
You know, the relationship iskey.
And the relationship is in mybook the number one thing that
you know, the therapeuticalliance, however you want to
conceptualize that, is primaryin the healing factors.
(17:10):
And I really think that empathy,as Dennis, you brought it up
earlier, and trying to figureout how we can respect people
during that crisis time and whenwhen they actually are, as much
as they're in pain, they'rethey're also open, I think, to
(17:32):
some sort of solution.
Because if they're coming in andsitting with us, there's still
some hope.
And I think that's really animportant thing.
And sometimes we have to holdthe hope for people.
But you know, this group herehas seen so much.
But I also think that for me,the relationship is really
important.
You can have technique, you canhave strategies, but I think
(17:54):
that ultimately the person hasto trust you first.
And that's one of the thingsI've seen over the years, over
the decades, that some peoplewill take a while to open up to
you.
And three four three quite along time.
Let me just say that.
And all of a sudden you starthearing about the the trauma
that they had when they wereliving in another country and
(18:16):
their mother, you know, was goneand their ants were beating
them.
I mean, the trauma issues startto emerge because of the shame
and because of the the fear thatpeople hold decades after it
happens.
But I just think that trust isreally an essential piece of
this.
SPEAKER_05 (18:34):
Yeah.
And I and I think that, youknow, I'll I want to turn to
Dennis too about this, but forthose who are listening to
Resilience Development inAction, what we're talking about
supervision goes as much forsupervisors in the field of
policing, of fire, of EMT,paramedic dispatch.
And the other part too is all ofthem are individuals.
(18:55):
And when you I'll alwaysremember the the EMTs and the
paramedics who used to come to agroup home in which I worked at.
And the firefighters and theparamedics and the EMTs that
would come in in our group homewould be so sympathetic.
And in a way that was difficultbecause they saw them so often.
But at the same time, when theydeveloped that empathy, that
(19:17):
sympathy to talk to the clients,the client, even in crisis, had
full trust and like, let's geton the garney, let's get going,
or hey, let's calm down, let'ssee what we can do, because they
used empathy and sympathy in thefield in order to avoid a
longer-term crisis.
So this is like when I just wantto mention before I turn to you,
Dennis, that what we're talkingabout here also applies to any
(19:39):
type of policing, fire,dispatch, even corrections to a
certain extent, too.
Dennis, anything to add to allthis?
SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
You know, one of the primary aspects of when I was
doing supervision with peoplewas to try and help them and
continue to reinforce in myself.
Where do you find the balancebetween sharing of yourself and
sort of leaving yourself out ofthe picture in a healthy way?
(20:10):
And I guess uh I've done this anumber of times over the years
where I'm not quite sure why Iwant to share this, but
something has been powerfulenough in my mind that I want to
share it.
And it's sort of Chris,following up on something that
you said that uh thankfully it's20 years now.
But 20 years ago I had a heartattack.
(20:31):
And shortly after I got homefrom the hospital, I started to
feel similar symptoms.
And thankfully, it it was notanother heart attack.
It was just a shoulder issue.
But I got to the emergency roomand I went in by ambulance, and
I got to the emergency room, andI was I was embarrassed, not
(20:54):
sure if I should be there,didn't and I was just sort of in
that crisis mode.
And the two two things that Iremember significantly, one was
one of the nurses, she I wasdescribing to her what happened,
and she said, Well, good foryou.
You listened to what they toldyou when you were in the
hospital.
And then later on, I was I waslaying on the the gurney, and I
(21:17):
had a rat's nest of tubing allover my face.
And because they weredisconnecting me from stuff.
And the EMT just sort of lookeddown and smiled at me and said,
I really should take a pictureof this.
It was just it it just helped meto get through that
circumstance.
And that's part of whatsupervision does too, is it
(21:40):
helps you to stay, helps you tolearn how to figure out how to
stay human in the process.
So again, I'm that was just sortof coming blasting into my head
as you were talking, Chris.
SPEAKER_03 (21:55):
I I would add one piece to that, because most of
my hospital career for Years wasin psych triage and training
students in the emergency room.
And I remember the day I had awhat turned out to be a fairly
benign vertigo attack at thegym, and I got an ambulance ride
to my own emergency room.
You know, and I was a bit of astar that day, but I was treated
(22:17):
exactly like I would hope apatient would be treated.
And I wasn't getting any specialtreatment because I'd watch
these people work on the otherside, not on the psych side, but
on the medical side.
And I remember complimentingeverybody and and and it
reinforced something that I usedto say to when the when training
nursing students and and NPstudents, when the really bright
(22:40):
ones at the end, I'd say anymore questions than they're
generally asked when I don'tknow what to do next.
What's the go-to thing?
When I really want to be helpfulbut I don't know what to do.
And all I could think to say wasjust be kind.
Kindness.
You know, you you're gonna meetpeople on the worst day of their
lives and family members on theworst day of their lives.
(23:00):
Now I was trained by, as you allknow, by a chaplain, you know,
so I had a had a the pastoralcare chip in me and did a lot of
that work actually as well.
But I remember how kindly I wastreated.
And in an in an emergency roomsituation, some kind soul that
brings you a warm blanket, oh mygoodness, there is nothing
(23:21):
better.
But they do it, you know, theyjust know they know how to their
comfort measures at that point,that they're treating a human
being that has some symptoms,not a constellation of symptoms.
And back in the day, I've seenattendings that would sing in
the hallway to their gaggle ofinterns and and residents, you
know, we're gonna go into 308and see the gallbladder.
(23:43):
To which I I was leaving, havingtalked to the woman that had the
gallbladder.
I said, No, that's Mrs.
Smith.
She's the one with thegallbladder.
You know, and I remember onestudent behind the attending,
you know, the student just wentlike this one.
You know, whoa.
But it's I I I always try to toI'll say this last thing is that
(24:06):
in my in my recovery fellowship,there is one line that is spoken
relating to online meetings.
And it says that whether it'sonline or in person, what we do
is we speak the language of theheart in all its power and
simplicity.
And I when I heard that thefirst time, I said, that's what
(24:27):
I've been trying to teach, isthat we're treating people that
are that are wounded andvulnerable.
And if I'm gonna have any chanceto make an alliance with them,
uh Chris's words were beautiful,they have to be respected and
held, and and and it is sacredwork that we do.
I've always felt that.
I think I've been able tocommunicate that, but on the
(24:50):
other hand, I used to gettreated all the time in my own
emergency room, I you know,because that was the nearest one
to where I lived.
And I I always accept the samekind of care I always thought
that I would give.
And so I think that's a goodparadigm if you if it treat
people like you'd like to betreated is is the oldest one.
And I try to teach my studentsthat uh the second rule of of my
(25:13):
mentor was the silver rule afterthe golden rule, and that was to
treat yourself as nice as thepeople you really love.
SPEAKER_07 (25:21):
And sometimes I think your your your advice is
extremely wise.
Be kind above all else.
All else.
And I I also would just sharethat as I look back over my
career, I feel like one of theskills that I developed over
time was the ability to findstrengths in the other person.
(25:44):
You know, as as as clinicalprofessionals, we're trained to
find problems, we're trying toformulate problems and problems
and problems.
But it's the strengths that thatwe uh can find in the other
person that that are thebuilding blocks of alliance.
And if it takes a little humoror a blanket, that it's those
(26:09):
are wonderful.
But also recognizing thatsomebody who's really difficult
in their own from their ownpoint of view, they they're
practicing a kind of integrity,and being able to join with the
healthy part, the the strengthpart of the other person is
absolutely key.
SPEAKER_05 (26:31):
And I think that that's what you used to bring to
me in my when I consulted withyou.
What are the strengths of thishuman being?
What are the strengths that youcan do?
Because I again, I you know,when you start on a crisis team,
you know certain things, but youdon't know what you don't know.
And for me, I thought that thegoal of the crisis team is to
put everyone in the hospital,which apparently it's not.
(26:52):
And and obviously nowadays, Itry to avoid the hospital as
much as I can for my clients,for anyone I know, because we
want to keep them in thecommunity.
And that's a lot of the Chrisand what I learned from that
agency that really comesthrough.
Now I'm gonna throw a I'm gonnathrow a nice little grenade here
because I want to do it onpurpose because this happens to
(27:13):
first responders, certainlyhappened on the crisis team, and
we saw this in in communitymental health.
And I know this is a dirty termfor some people, but I'm gonna
do it anyway.
What do we do with thesefrequent flyers who don't want
the help?
And if you go on YouTube, I putquotations here.
They don't want the help.
Why are we gonna treat them likehumans?
They've been here 20 times,they've been here 15 times,
(27:33):
they've been through 17clinicians.
I'm throwing a grenade purposelybecause this is something that
happens both in our field and inthe first responder world.
So I don't know who wants totake this grenade and try to
like diffuse it, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
So, what comes to mind, Steve, is that I remember
what the an experience when Iwas doing inpatient addiction
and recovery.
Person had come in for it, itwas approximately his hundredth
detox, and the person stayedsober from that point on.
SPEAKER_03 (28:05):
When I was at uh the clinical coordinator at the old
Framingham detox, there was awoman in recovery that I knew in
Framingham, and she was 20 yearssober and was helping women all
of the time.
An amazing soul.
And I doing an MIS thing in 1990for the state.
I had to I pulled charts atrandomly.
I pulled her chart, and she'donly been treated at the at the
(28:28):
Framingham detox.
And the last time she was therewas her 333rd admission.
Wow.
They were getting they didn'tknow enough in those days that
they were basically creating abenzodiazepine dependency
because they'd re-admit peopleum so frequently.
But 333 detoxes, and that's whatit took.
(28:49):
I knew I knew her as a soberperson 20 years.
SPEAKER_06 (28:53):
But we're talking about hope here.
I mean trying to keep hopealive, so to speak, to you know,
to paraphrase Jesse Jackson.
And not giving up.
Yeah, and not not giving up onthe person and allowing yourself
the patience and the empathy totry in the middle of a very busy
(29:16):
ER, you know, a lot of times, tohave some space, allow some
space, hold some space for aperson like this.
And I used to work at a placecalled Mount Pleasant Hospital
in Lynn, and and uh Kristenwould know this place.
It was in the 80s, and when Ithink you may have been over at
Lynn Hospital, Chris.
(29:37):
Yeah, but yeah.
And I heard about you.
And the other psychiatrist wouldcome to up and do rounds with
us, and uh it was fun.
But the you know, I the some ofthe folks, one of this in
particular one guy who workedfor, I'll just say, in in the
the trades, you know, he had hehe had an appointment every June
(29:58):
and he'd come in for two weeks.
And I I sat down with him andit's like, what's going on?
And he goes, Well, this is my50th.
And I said, Really?
What's what what what what doyou think it is that keeps you
cold and keeps you coming?
And he goes, Well, I you know, II come I kind of want to dry out
once in a while just so I cankind of get a perspective on
(30:19):
things again.
But then I go back to it.
And in any event, he stayed alittle longer this time, did
some actual work, and he nevercame back after that.
He never he never needed itafter that because I contacted
him.
And but you never know when it'sgonna happen, when it's gonna
take, you know.
And so I just think that we andI it having patience for people
(30:44):
that are are stressful for us,that's a whole nother thing.
And I think the the firstresponders must run into this an
awful lot.
And the hostility and the angerand so a lot of that's a defense
for people.
But we have the luxury astherapists of being able to sit
with it and examine it, exploreit, and maybe get underneath it
(31:05):
with the person.
But they don't, from what I cantell.
They've got to like manage andtry to contain.
And I think that must be awfullydifficult.
And I give I give them all thecredit in the world.
SPEAKER_07 (31:15):
I'd also like to make a comment, though, about
the frequent flyer thing,because language like that is
really fucking toxic.
You know, and it it is one ofthe things I loved about working
in advocates is that we had theadvocates' way, which was not
followed universally, but we setout the philosophy that we're
(31:36):
gonna treat everybody with deeprespect.
And the terms like frequentflyer, they just drive me crazy.
And when and you when somebodysays it, you don't want to call
them out in public and embarrassthem and et cetera.
But when when when terms likethat are not uh responded to,
(31:58):
they just it just creates moretoxicity.
It's like a germ that uh itneeds to be eradicated.
And it takes a it takes uhcultural leadership and
supervision to recognize thatterms like frequent flyer are
(32:19):
are slurs.
You know, they're they'rethey're slurs and they're they
are very, very damaging to uhthe the person who's being
described, but also it'sdamaging to the to the body
politic of the team.
SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
It's dehumanizing.
To your point earlier, Chris,about staying human and and
being able to relate to aperson, once you've labeled them
such a term, you've alreadycreated a distance and a
separation that now you have togulf and and you've created
(33:01):
potentially distrust in thatperson.
Yeah.
You know, somebody who'srepeatedly showing up is showing
up.
You know, I'm glad you're herebecause maybe this is the time.
SPEAKER_05 (33:23):
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Now, right back to the episode.
Yeah, and I and you know, Chris,I purposely tossed that grenade
because I knew you felt aboutit.
I I would I do not use that termanymore because we've had this
(34:31):
private conversation outside ofhere, but wanted to make sure.
And you know, we haven't heardfrom Dennis, but you know,
again, like I hear so manystories in regards to, you know,
I would tell you that there's athe story that I would tell you
is out of parole where I had aguy who was on, we'll say at
over five DUIs.
I cannot recall his number.
(34:53):
And he was on parole for 30days.
He was already drinking withinthe first few days, and they
said, You're the substance abusecoordinator, Steve.
Fix him.
All right, I'll be fun.
So I'm sitting with the guywho's under the influence.
They don't want to send him backto jail, which is, you know, the
good thing about parole isthere's gonna be it's been a
shift in the it at that time tonot send back people and get
(35:16):
them treatment or whatever.
And while I'm talking to theguy, the guy says to me, like,
what's that?
And it was a little woodenBuddha.
And I was like, Well, that'sBuddha.
And he was like, What is Buddhadoing?
Let's talk a little bit aboutBuddhism.
He's like, Can I have it?
I said, Are you gonna staysober?
And he's like, Yeah, I would.
I'm like, All right, see you ina week, take the Buddha, and
we'll be good.
Well, I know he was only onparole for what four weeks after
(35:38):
that, or whatever it was, but hestayed sober over that little
wooden Buddha, and that's whythat's the example I give to
some of my officers andfirefighters or EMTs or
paramedics.
Like, what about this guy?
I'm like, this guy stays soberover a wooden Buddha.
You'll never know the impact youcan have with someone over
something as simple as beinghuman with them.
(36:00):
And so he, I don't know where heis today.
I gotta admit, I don't know whatthe guy's doing today.
And if you've been on listeningto my podcast, this has happened
many times.
But I I I that's the story Ishared.
This happened to me like over 20years ago, and I still remember
to this day, even when I getfrustrated with the repeat
presentation of the same thing.
SPEAKER_03 (36:20):
That was not a uh inanimate Buddha, that was a
transferential self-objectiveview, Steve.
That was you he brought youhome.
I like that.
That's a that was it.
Good friend.
Yeah.
I have uh when I worked ininpatient and then in a day
hospital, the thing that painedme the most, and I can't
(36:42):
remember which supervisor itwas, or whether it was my old
mentor, Dick Dick Fleck, or not,but I remember it pained me
because a patient would becoming in and I'd be on the unit
or on, you know, uh the dayhospital, and they were they
were coming back, you know, forafter a period of time or not
very much time, and they wouldthey would see me in wince and
(37:03):
look like they wanted to run outthe door and hide.
And I would try to engage them,and and and someone told me, you
know, I've I've stolen so muchfrom all of the good clinicians,
I can't remember or hear them.
But the way to respond, it workslike a charm, is that I would
just say to them, thank you somuch for coming back.
And they said, Well, I should Isaid, what you learned the last
(37:24):
time was enough to get you backhere and not have to stay out
there.
Everybody gets everybody stopsdrinking and has a drinking
problem.
Some of us are lucky enough tobe alive when it happens.
You're alive, that's all thatmatters here.
If you got a heartbeat, there'shope.
So let's just get to work.
Figure out what you need to add,what you haven't been doing.
(37:45):
I can't remember who told methat.
Could have been Dennis.
I I I can't remember.
Because but I remember thatpained me so much that they were
trying to run away from mebecause I was a mirror in which
they saw shame.
A bigger is that was not what Iwanted to be.
SPEAKER_06 (37:58):
That's exactly, yeah.
That's why they winced.
They felt the shame.
SPEAKER_02 (38:02):
Oh, yeah.
You know, I I think that thatpeople that are listening this
to this today party to uh Ithink a significantly important
part of supervision, and thatthere's two aspects to
supervision.
We we didn't do a casepresentation today, which is one
aspect of supervision, whichtalks about what you think about
(38:23):
a situation, what you thinkabout a circumstance.
What we've been party to thismorning is that part of
supervision that helps you tolook at and pay attention to how
you think.
And I think how you think for meover the years, in uh sort of
assessing whether I I would liketo refer a somebody to a
(38:46):
particular clinician, it's asmuch in understanding how they
think as opposed to what theythink.
And that's the I think therichness that that I appreciate
being part of this supervisiondynamic this morning because it
feels good.
SPEAKER_05 (39:02):
Agreed, agreed.
And I think that that's what itis too, is that one of the
things, the aspects that youdidn't mention about supervision
that I absolutely love aboutthis group is that I don't have
any filter in regards to what'sgoing on.
I don't worry about what I'mgonna say is right or wrong.
I'm looking for feedback.
And if I'm wrong, it's not donein a judgmental way or in a mean
(39:25):
way, it's done in a like Steve,maybe think about this or
whatever.
I think that that's the otheraspect that, you know, I would
honestly say all five of youhave contributed to me because
once I didn't feel like I like Ihad to be saying the right thing
every single moment.
And then after that, it was easyto say because if I was wrong,
someone would say it in arespectful way.
(39:46):
And you know, Steve, maybe thinkabout it differently.
But ultimately, that's what thisgroup has always done for me, is
done it with respect, even if Iwas wrong.
And I think that's the otherpart too, is that we have a
right to not know everything.
And I think that that sometimesis lost.
I don't know if I I I you knowthe other part too is you the
the part of supervision that'salways been very helpful.
(40:08):
And I I want to shout out mygroup that I do of twice a week
with my first responders.
There's two rules in the group.
We can't repeat anything that'ssaid in the room, which is you
know standard.
And then the second one is noapologies.
And that's because some peoplewill bring up their story and,
like, I'm sorry I'm taking somuch time, or I'm sorry this is
blankety blank.
And I would be like, and it'sfunny because all the group
(40:30):
members who have been there forany like amount of time, as soon
as someone apologizes, itbecomes like almost
aggressively, stop apologizing.
And I like that because this isexactly right.
It's like we have a problem, westruggle with something, we got
to be able to say it withoutapologies because there's
nothing wrong with having anissue.
SPEAKER_06 (40:48):
You know, that issue of trust.
I keep on thinking about it inthe context of the first
responders and what they areencountering not only in their
day-to-day work, but with withinthe, you know, and through the
media of like how are firstresponders being treated?
How are what it what is thethreat to them above and beyond
(41:09):
the people that they're tryingto help or trying to contain is
the word that comes to my mind.
But it's really just, you know,I'm we're trying to figure out a
way to get to a point where thisis not a danger anymore.
And I Steve, you may probablyknow this as well as anybody,
but it must be an awfully hardthing when you're going to work
(41:31):
and you're trying to, you know,what's this day going to be
like?
You hear you have no idea.
And I'd be interested incomments.
SPEAKER_05 (41:38):
I'll make the I'll make the point right now and you
guys can react to it.
One of the things I did, I wentI did a uh presentation for
another hospital in the area,and they asked me, what's the
one thing you want the public toknow about our first responder
world?
And I said, here's the easy one.
If we see someone who happens tobe black steal a car and we say
(41:59):
all black people steal cars, wewould be sacrificed, we would be
judged for saying that.
A cop does something wrong,whether it's ice or anything
else in Minneapolis.
Why is the cop in Millis maskbeing treated like crap?
He didn't do anything, butthat's the same discrimination,
in my opinion, that we give tothe police that we say, no, no,
(42:22):
we can't do that to anybodyelse.
But then that's fine.
And I think that that's one ofthe things you talk about that
you talked about, Bob.
And I really think that maybe ifI can turn it to you guys, but
that's to me, that's like thisthe same amount of
discrimination, and they face itall the time.
And you know, imagine having ajob.
We talked about AI quicklyearlier.
Imagine having a job where yougo to any call and there's a
(42:46):
camera on your face every singletime.
Never mind some of those whohave the body cameras.
It's it's an amount and we don'thave that pressure in mental
health.
We don't have that pressure inpretty much any other job than
having them, you know, maybe acasino dealer.
I don't know.
But ultimately, what I'm sayingto you is that what do you guys
what's your reaction when I saysomething like it's the same
(43:08):
same type of discrimination,it's just a different point of
view.
SPEAKER_06 (43:12):
Well, you're lumping everyone into one basket, so to
speak, who is in that group,whether or not it's race,
religion, any kind of ethnicityor culture, and you're just
making an assumption thatthey're all alike.
And that's impossible.
It's it's it's demeaning andit's oversimplifying, and it's
(43:34):
and it's basically creating a pruh a rift between your feelings
about them and it'sover-generalizing.
And that's something that we doa lot in this country, I think,
too much but and and in and notjust our country.
But so how do we get past that?
How do we start to help peopleunderstand that?
(43:54):
And that's that's gonna takesome time, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (43:58):
Well, I think it's the same.
Problem as the labeling, thefrequent flyer label, in that
you're you're creating thisdivision and this separation.
And you know, it just the waythat a first responder has to
accept that their patient is ahuman being and treat them
(44:20):
accordingly, the first responderis also a human being, must be
treated accordingly.
And if you reduce that to anindividual basis, it's not hard
to see or or do.
But when you scope out into apolice force or a you know a
movement or something, now broadgeneralizations get applied, but
(44:45):
individuals feel that.
But bringing humanity bringingto each individual person is
actually not that hard.
And it's, I think, built intoall of us to do that.
It's it's all this noise thatneeds to be filtered out, and
(45:06):
maybe this is sort of fullcircle from where we started
about AI and social media andother things that influence us
to carry these opinions that arenot useful face to face.
They're not useful one-to-one.
And that's how I think that's agood way to know whether you're
on the right track or not.
(45:26):
Would I do this face to face?
Would I say that to this personif they were right in front of
me?
If the answer is no, then that'stelling you something.
SPEAKER_03 (45:36):
I think the full circle moment that I've
experienced with that, and Icould relate to all of that, and
it's all truth, is I had arecent obsession.
Is that somewhere in the firstof the year I I came across the
monks marching for peace, and Ibecame obsessed with it.
(45:56):
That's a fair statement becauseI was watching it every day,
just watching these gentlepeople going and attending to
everyone along the way.
Twenty miles a day.
People that came from SoutheastAsia, like most of these monks
were Vietnamese, they had neverseen snow, you know, and stuff,
I don't think.
And and they're walking intheir, you know, in their feet,
(46:17):
the their feet sometimes, and itwas extraordinary.
Because all along the way theywere they weren't looking for to
be applauded.
Actually, they this was asurprise that they were even
even so so famous, but they justwere attending.
They did what they always do.
And I'll just add one personalthing is that the mentor that
I've been talking about, my mymy mentor, the chaplain, was a
(46:40):
Dominican.
He was a wonderful minister, hewas a wonderful priest.
It broke his heart when thechurch scandal about pedophilia
came out.
He couldn't wear his Romancollar because people would
throw things at him.
Kind of like the Vietnam vetscoming home from horrors of war
and getting spit at at theairport in California.
(47:03):
You know, so it's there's apejorative uh influence in this
country that I think socialmedia has has created a lot
where people can sit there andtroll and and and just be vile,
if you will, faceless.
And I love your comment, Andy.
Would someone say it to someonein person?
These monks were the face ofwhat they stood for, which was
(47:25):
kindness.
As the Dalai Lama said, myreligion is not a religion, it's
kindness.
It's a philosophy.
We we try to treat peoplekindly.
And I think if we all I thinkthere's so much learning that
can be taken from that.
I became just enamored withthese gentle beings.
And it just reminded me of whywe're all here.
To take care of each other andto and to look look locally.
(47:48):
It's how can we be of of servicein some in some meaningful way?
And that would that thecreativity is supposed to in my
mind is supposed to be there.
What can I do next to be to beof use?
There's always something thatcan be done.
And I believe, and if I start bytaking care of me first, and
then then I'm in a good positionto do so.
(48:11):
So it was a little bit of a rantthere, I'm sorry, but I was
obsessed with them, and I stillam to a degree.
It was such a spiritual thing inmany ways.
It was very cathartic to mewatching those men march and the
effect they had on everybodyalong the way.
Especially the police.
You know, especially the firstresponders who were the guys in
(48:34):
the middle of winter with thebicycles out there, the the
police officers protecting them.
Because in what was it, in thefirst week, someone one of them
got lost a foot because of anaccident.
Someone I think was watchingthem and drove into them or
something.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, it was amazing.
It was just an amazing piece ofAmericana there, I thought.
SPEAKER_02 (48:53):
If if I remember correctly, part of the
advocate's mission statement wasfirst we listen.
And it it it occurs to me,Steve, as you ask your your
question, is that uh maybeanother aspect of that is first
we wonder why, versus saying,no, you shouldn't, or this is
(49:14):
what you should do.
And I think that that's becomingmore and more the case, is that
people are not wondering why.
They're just telling people whatthey should or shouldn't be
doing.
And I think that's another keyaspect to therapeutic process is
being able to look at it andsay, geez, I wonder why, as
opposed to no, you shouldn't.
SPEAKER_06 (49:36):
That goes into the trauma, a trauma kind of saying,
which is, you know, it used tobe we'd ask, and what's wrong
with you, and now we can askwhat happened to you.
And I just think it's a piece ofthat.
Yes, brilliant.
SPEAKER_03 (49:52):
Yeah, I really agree with that.
I heard something the othernight that I've never heard,
maybe all it's common knowledgeto all of you, but a fellow was
speaking about his therapistwho's who he because he was
worried, like a dozen people hadlost their jobs this week or
something.
That became the theme of thetrauma of the loss and the shock
and horror of that.
And this fellow said, I'm mypoor therapist, he listens to me
(50:14):
uh project fear and all of that,and I'm a bit of a
catastrophizer, and I labelmyself like that.
And and the therapist said, No,actually, you you've got PTSD.
And he said, Well, I know I gotPTSD.
And he said, No, not that kindof PTSD.
You have pre-trauma stressdisorder.
You're projecting, he said, Howmuch have you ever in your life
(50:38):
done tomorrow?
Today, you know, it's so it'sit's not taking my fear of what
could happen and then getallowing that to traumatize me
as well.
I just wanted to share thatbecause I I can't believe it,
but after this 40 years, that'sthe first time I've heard of
pre-traumatic stress disorder.
Has anyone else heard of that?
SPEAKER_05 (50:58):
Well, I never call it that.
What I do call it is a fortunetelling and from the CDT
process.
So when people tell me what'sgonna happen and what trauma, I
go, all right, guys, uh megamillions, or and if you're on
YouTube, you'll see it.
Just write down the numbers forme since you can see the future,
mega millions or Powerball, Idon't mind.
And then and when they theystart laughing, I go, okay, now
(51:21):
you you understand you cannotpredict the future, correct?
So stop trying to do so.
They all laugh because it's anice way to present it, but some
of them are so used to it, andlike, and now you're gonna hand
me the pad to tell me.
Yeah, so it's good that theyremember it that way.
And I think that the other parttoo is you talk about trauma, I
(51:43):
talk about humor.
And what I mean by that is inour group, you know, I talk talk
about how sometimes we talkabout trauma, we talk about
heart stories.
We spent 40 minutes laughingabout a certain event that
occurred, and I'm not gonnashare what it is because it's
gonna be out of place anyway,but we laughed about it in a
group for 40 minutes, and theguys stayed afterwards and
(52:04):
talked to each other for over anhour in the parking lot, just
chatting.
And so sometimes humor opens upthe ability to talk about harder
stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (52:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (52:14):
So, well, on that happy note, maybe we got an hour
already in.
So I'm gonna separate this intwo episodes again.
But any parting words fromanyone?
SPEAKER_03 (52:24):
Yes.
I just when we sit down likethis, you know, especially in
the midst of this thing today.
I'm so grateful that I I hadpower so I could be here.
I really love being a part ofthis, and and it just strikes me
today how much I love you guys.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (52:39):
It's I catch it, Pat.
Yeah, I agree a thousandpercent.
There's a warmth here, there'san intelligence, there's uh
wisdom, there's all thesewonderful things that it's not
easy to find sometimes.
SPEAKER_03 (52:51):
And despite what we're seeing, there's a lot of
humor in this group.
SPEAKER_05 (52:55):
Yeah.
I think that that's what that'swhat I love about that.
Pat, I love you.
I love you, Amy and Bob andDennis and Chris.
I want to make sure I said thattoo.
But I think that that's what itis, is we balance each other out
so well with all the experiencewe have.
The one thing that you I'll sayit differently than you said,
Bob, there are absolutely noegos in this room.
(53:16):
And we have all a little bit ofego, that's life.
But when we get all together, Ifeel like the everyone's ego
just disappears.
Feels good.
SPEAKER_06 (53:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I it feels safe here.
I it's it's it's interesting.
That you mentioned that, youknow, I I grew up in a family of
catastrophizers.
So I've I had to do a lot oftherapy to try to get past some
of that.
And even now it's uh I wastrained by a pro as a as a
child, yeah.
unknown (53:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (53:43):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (53:45):
Well, I want to thank everyone for coming again.
And we're gonna we're gonna geta small window in May, and we're
gonna absolutely do this again.
Very, very small window, butwe're gonna do this face to face
because we can't really recordwhile we're doing golf.
So that's a little harder.
That's true, yes.
Yeah.
You know, I think that myswearing would be out of
control.
(54:05):
But all joking aside, I want tothank you all, Dennis, Bob,
Andy, Chris, and Pat.
Thank you so much for coming onagain on Resilience Development
in Action.
And can't wait to do our nextinterview.
Steve, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_03 (54:18):
Yeah, thanks, Steve.
Me as well.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_00 (54:23):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to theprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, for assistance.
(54:47):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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