March 25, 2026 • 30 mins
A lot of police wellness talk starts after something terrible happens. We wanted to start earlier and go deeper, into the daily mechanics of the job that slowly shape sleep, mood, relationships, and long-term health. I’m joined by Kevin Gilmartin, a retired law enforcement veteran and clinical psychologist who’s been watching the evolution of first responder mental health since the 1970s, and he brings a blunt, practical view of what actually changes outcomes.
We dig into why law enforcement trains relentlessly for tactics yet rarely treats mental health training, sleep hygiene, and recovery as mandatory readiness skills. Kevin connects the dots between sleep impairment and judgment errors, then pushes beyond the usual “short game” focus on critical incidents and PTSD. The bigger risk is what builds quietly over years: burnout, disengagement, cynicism, and preventable disease that steals retirement from the people who earned it.
One of the most memorable parts is Kevin’s biological lens on officer safety and hypervigilance. The same distrust-based alertness that keeps officers alive on the street can drive a stress cycle of cortisol, glucose dumping, insulin response, abdominal weight gain, and a predictable march toward type 2 diabetes and heart risk. We also talk leadership versus bosses, what real leadership looks like in the moment, and why coaching and mentorship can keep good cops good for the next 10, 20, even 40 years.
If you care about first responder wellness, police mental health, and practical resilience that holds up over a career, press play. Subscribe, share this with someone in the job, and leave us a review so more people can find the long-game approach to serving and surviving.
You can find Kevin at his website at https://emotionalsurvival.com/author.htm
Buy his book at this link.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve B.
So this is the podcast dedicatedto first responder mental
health, helping police, fire,EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their team.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
She was amazing, and I hope you enjoy that talk about
Grandit Recovery Centers, whichis made for uh first responders,
which is pretty out awesome.
But speaking of someone who isan advocate for first
responders, this is someone whowas recommended to me.
I had read his book and I reallyenjoyed it.
And this is about 10, 15 yearsago, just being honest with
(00:57):
Kevin here.
But when I read the book, Ithought it was really great.
And then I do my survey everyyear, as you guys heard in the
other episode.
And two people said to me, Youneed to have Kevin Gilmartin on.
And I'm like, perfect.
Let me contact him.
Let's take a shot.
The guy responded to me in likean hour.
And I can't tell you howinvaluable that is.
If you work in this world, youknow that getting a quick answer
(01:19):
is the key to greatrelationships.
But Kevin Gilmartin, welcome toFinding Your Not Finding.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Thank you for having me, Steve.
My pleasure.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
Resilience Development in Action.
I changed the name about a yearago, still haven't recommended
in my head.
It's really an honor to have youhere.
I I again I truly enjoyed thebook.
It talks a lot about theemotional survival skills that
people need to work in the firstresponder world, particularly
police officers.
I'd like you to introduceyourself maybe to people because
I feel like I know you fromthose reading and we we spoke
(01:50):
offline, so this is even better.
But can you introduce yourselfto the audience in case they
don't know who you are?
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Well, I'm a clinical psychologist retired from law
enforcement.
I'm an old guy, so I've had theblessing or curse, whatever you
want to call it, of being inthis field from pretty much the
beginning of the whole mentalhealth for a first responders
field.
Going back to the 1970s, workingat moderate-sized law
(02:17):
enforcement agency, and watchingwatching what wasn't existing
then.
There were no mental healthservices to speak of.
Then watching it as the yearshave developed and passed, and
through to my own retirementfrom law enforcement, then into
a life of being a clinicalpsychologist.
But I've just seen how the fieldhas changed and has shaped
(02:40):
differently, and how how ourservices have developed.
So that's sort of my background.
I'm raised up in Arizona afterhigh school, went into the
Marine Corps, then went to theUniversity of Arizona where I
obtained my PhD in clinicalpsychology.
I was sort of fortunate that Ifinished my degree fairly early
(03:02):
in my employment in lawenforcement.
So I was able to get into abehavioral sciences unit, which
was different than what they aretoday, but it let me sort of
have a firsthand see on thetrials and tribulations of a
life of uh being in lawenforcement, watching some of my
friends struggle and and somecrash during during those years.
SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
Well, when we read your book, there's clearly a lot
of passion that comes from thatexperience as a law enforcement
officer and working in thatfield.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
Well, you know, we train in law enforcement.
We we train for tacticalhands-on skills.
For example, going to the range.
Nobody would expect a lawenforcement officer to not have
to go qualify at the range.
And as the decades have passed,the way we qualify has changed.
(03:56):
It's no longer, you know, 25meters back, two minutes to
shoot five rounds.
Uh, that's what it was when Ijoined.
Then each year it became morereactive, it became more
judgment pistol shooting, itbecame more realistic based, uh,
night shooting, weekhandshooting, the things that that
we learned from the tragedies ofofficers being ill-prepared for
(04:18):
the tactical encounter they gotinto.
But we don't train for mentalhealth.
We we don't train for the theissues that we want to make sure
that that officer, when they'reon the street doing their job,
is 100%.
And we we don't.
I'll give you one very simpleexample where where we don't.
Very few police departments havemandatory training in sleep
(04:42):
hygiene.
Sleep impairment, where theycome from, how come cops are
high risk for sleep impairment?
Yet we know two things.
83% of police officers havediagnosable sleep disorders.
They're sleep impaired.
They they get two hours lesssleep every day than they need.
But the critical issue is whenyou compare a police officer to
(05:03):
a factory worker, in a judgmentand reaction time study, the
police officer makes 600% morereaction time errors and
judgment errors than a factoryworker.
Now, a judgment and reactiontime error for a police officer
can be deadly either to thepolice officer or to the citizen
(05:23):
they're interacting with.
So one of the things I believeI'm passionate for is if we're
going to put good quality policeofficers on the streets, we have
to factor in mental health andwellness services.
If we don't, we're incompetentin leadership.
Just the same as if we weren'tputting our officers on the
range to qualify.
And it's no different.
SPEAKER_02 (05:45):
Well, the the sleep hygiene thing is something I
talk about a lot, my guys,because it is hard.
You know, the shift work isreally hard, and if it's a 4-2,
it's even harder.
But it it's learning to do thatsleep hygiene, that regular
sleep, getting those hours,getting also kind of like
setting up your body to go fallasleep, whether you finish at
midnight, whether you you youyou finish at eight or four.
(06:08):
It doesn't matter.
I think that's important.
SPEAKER_01 (06:11):
Well, it it's terribly important.
I I think it's probably thesingle most important issue to
good judgment is sleep hygiene,because it also kicks off a
whole cascade of other biologicchanges that the cop will pay
the price for, not when they're25, but maybe when they're 45.
(06:31):
And what we start shorteninglife expectancy with some very
basic issues that can occur.
But uh as the years have passedfor me looking at this field, I
think we've done a wonderful jobwith mental health services in
some ways in in the UnitedStates.
And I think Canada in some wayshas been ahead of us.
(06:52):
Australia has been way ahead ofus.
Uh when I say us, I mean theUnited States.
But I think we make a mistake inthat we only play the short
game.
By that I mean the criticalincident has become the major
focus of many therapists.
The only culprit that's in townis post-traumatic stress
(07:12):
disorder, which I'm not in anyway minimizing PTSD.
No, but we played the short gameto get the person through the
aftermath of that traumaticevent, and yet we don't do
anything for the long game.
And there's one group of copsthat I've been studying and
watching for I think 52 yearsright now.
(07:33):
And we're going to have anotheruh reunion with in a in about
three weeks.
And I've watched that group veryspecifically as I've watched
them transition from young menand young women to old men and
old women.
And many of them are fallingvictim and dying from diseases
that could have been preventedif we had had wellness woven
(07:55):
into the fabric of the policingculture, which we don't have.
We're very good at at thecritical incident.
Uh you know, I remember gettingcalled to many major critical
incident scenes, going to thethe Oklahoma City bombing and
watching as as mental healthservices were being implemented
(08:16):
there.
They did a very good job.
Then shooting forward a fewyears to Hurricane Andrew,
Hurricane Katrina, and watchinghow more services work.
Then 9-11 and and realizing whenI got called to 9-11 that I
didn't need to be there.
There are so many mental healthservices.
(08:38):
And in your state, in inMassachusetts, I was running the
marathon when the bomb went offand was asked to stick around,
then realized there's no needfor me to be here.
We really have mental healthservices for the short game
understood, but we're still notdoing anything to educate our
police officers to understandthat if you're going to be a
(09:00):
police officer, you're at highrisk for heart disease, you're
at high risk for depression,you're at high risk for type 2
diabetes, and we're notconnecting those dots, and
they're clearly job-caused.
And we can do so much better ajob in the overall wellness, not
just committed to have a goodcop on the street, but given
(09:23):
this man or woman the capacityto enjoy their retirement, do
20, 30 years of service, thenhave a healthy, functional life
for the rest of their the yearson this earth.
So that that's kind of mypassions to doing that.
SPEAKER_02 (09:38):
I wrote so many notes here.
I don't think I'm gonna get allright away, but you know, I
don't want a good cop for rightnow, I want a good cop for a
long period of time.
And I think that that's lostsometimes.
You know, that's why, like forme, I I I push wellness visits
mental health-wise.
And those are not meant to beevery day or every week, and
(09:59):
frankly, they're meant for everyyear unless you need more.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
You know, go ahead.
Well, a quote that hit me rightbetween the eyes was a billion
years ago, many, many, manyyears ago.
I was attending uh a politicalpolitical talk by Robert F.
Kennedy a week before he wasassassinated.
And he made, and during thetalk, he just said every
(10:25):
community has the policedepartment that it deserves.
And someone's what do you meanby that?
He said, Well, if you're notgoing to take care of your
police, you're going to abuseyour police, then that's what
you'll get.
You'll you'll you'll get policeofficers that are substandard.
If you invest in your police,and I don't I don't mean just in
terms of uh salaries, butinvesting in them in resources,
(10:48):
involvement in the community,and woven into the fabric of
your community, you'll have anexcellent law enforcement
community.
You know, it was sort of likeSir Robert Peel's, you know, the
community is the police, and thepolice are the community.
And and and I think the mentalhealth field is one that really
can can lend itself to thatphilosophy.
SPEAKER_02 (11:09):
Well, having done both, for me, there's a lot of
exposures that we do as atherapist that can be called
vicarious trauma.
I know that there's a lot ofvicarious trauma that occurs in
the police world.
I think there's a lot ofcommonalities in that way.
I know for us, we talk totherapists, and one of the
things, and I have them I havethe fortunate luck to have many
(11:31):
mentors in my life that if I'mhaving an issue, I can call them
in my therapy world.
In our field of the firstresponder world, particularly
police, we usually haveleadership.
And sometimes leadership can bethe best thing in the world, and
sometimes it can be the hardestthing in the world.
This is come the this comes fromsomeone I work with who
(11:52):
submitted a question.
How do we get leadership to buyinto this?
Because when you talk aboutevery community gets the police
they deserve, essentially, howdo we get leadership to buy into
like getting a good cop, not fornow, but a good cop for the next
40 years?
SPEAKER_01 (12:08):
Well, you know, it's it's funny.
I don't know if I'll agree withyou that we have a lot of
leadership.
We have a lot of bosses, we havea lot of people that have rank
and they can tell you what todo.
SPEAKER_02 (12:17):
I've got these bars, can't you see them?
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
Yeah, and and that's exactly right.
So it's the genetic fallacy ofwho the order comes from.
You know, I'm the captain, soyou're gonna do when I say jump,
you're gonna say how hi.
That's great uh if you're theretelling the guy to jump.
But when you're asleep at threeo'clock in the morning, and that
cop is out on the street atthree o'clock in the morning,
you're not telling him to jump.
(12:40):
He has to have some internaldrive to do the right thing.
And you can't have leadershipunless you have ethical
followership.
You can't have just bosses thattell people what to do.
You have to inspire people, youhave to model it.
You know, I'll give uh what Ithink is kind of a simple-minded
example, but it impressed me.
(13:00):
I remember sticking aroundBoston after the marathon
bombing.
And on the the Friday, it wasthe day after the tragedy of the
MIT officer Sean Collier waskilled.
Thursday, but yeah.
Yeah, he was killed Thursdaynight, I believe.
And then it was Friday.
SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
Wednesday night, Wednesday night and to Thursday,
and then Friday was like, weshut down the city to go get it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
But on Friday, I was at Watertown at the Armory Mall,
the Arsenal Mall in Watertown.
And there were hundreds andhundreds of police officers
involved in that.
They shut the town down, theywere doing a house-by-house
search looking for the survivingbrother.
And they brought in a caterer tofeed all the cops.
(13:44):
I mean, there were hundreds ofcops, and there was a big line,
kind of the chow line.
Everybody was waiting in line togo get something to eat.
And uh Ed Davis, who was the thecommissioner of Boston PD at
that point, I watched him leavethe command trailer where they
were working and walk to theback of the line and get in the
(14:06):
line.
And he wasn't going to eat untilevery one of his personnel that
were out working had gottensomething to eat.
And and I I mentioned the guy infront of me, I said, you know,
you want to know what leadershiplooks like?
That's what leadership lookslike.
He's gonna make sure that thepeople doing the job are getting
fed and getting adequate water.
(14:28):
Then he'll pill eat when they'redone.
And the guy in front of me says,you know, I'm in line waiting to
get my boss's meal.
And I thought that was justgreat because he used the word
boss.
I said, Yeah, yeah, okay.
So so you can be his waiter.
Yeah, exactly.
(14:49):
So in in law enforcement today,I think we have a lot of people
that are visionary, but youcan't get your vision
implemented unless the men andwomen are willing to do that for
you.
And you can't do that by burningout people, pissing them off,
and and being vilified by them.
And true leaders are understandmost of the time the answers
(15:12):
come from the from the peopledoing the job in the trenches.
And you just have to synthesizethat information and put it into
your vision.
So you you can't abuse rank andfile personnel.
And when you do that, you'reyou're just a boss.
SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
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(15:53):
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Now, right back to the episode.
And you know, we we have enoughbosses, right?
Yeah.
I think that that's the otherpart, too, is that I find that
(16:37):
there's a toxicity that canexist in some leadership that
becomes like suddenly you havebars and your shit don't sink.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
Well, you know, you have to remember many of those
people who get promoted are asvictimized by the policing
experience uh as the rank andfile guy who doesn't get
promoted.
And and they just take that withthem.
But you know, the the big issuethat I look at in police work is
burnout.
(17:07):
You know, any anybody can be asprinter.
You know, anybody can be asprinter.
I I've I've run the BostonMarathon a dozen times, and I'm
always amazed at watching guystake off out there from
Hopkinton, and then they're justracing, and then you get
somewhere, oh, about Wellesleyor someplace like that, and
(17:27):
they're bent over on the side ofthe road, and you hear somebody
coming along keeping their pace,and they just bust up Heartbreak
Hill, and they they race it intoBoston, and you know, and then
they're done.
So burnout is the syndrome ofovercommitment that leads to
underproductivity.
And cops, young cops, there'snothing more enthusiastic than a
(17:51):
young cop.
They want to get out on thestreet, they want to do their
job, they're engaged.
It's very easy to get a youngcop to come to work.
They want to come to work.
It has almost a recreationalquality in most agencies.
I'm I'm sure right now there'sthere's some some of these large
American cities that the copswould just assume not.
I don't know that, but I Iassume because their working
(18:13):
conditions are so miserable.
Uh, but in in most communities,I I speak at police academies.
I see these young kids, they'reno different.
You know, they they might spenda lot of time on their cell
phones and digital devices, butthey're they're the same as cops
have always been.
They want to go out and do a dothe job.
If there's something hot, a hotcall coming down, they want to
(18:35):
be part of it.
And it's very committed.
But unless they know how tomaintain themselves and keep
those other functions in theirlife going, they'll they'll end
up after about eight or tenyears a casualty of the job.
Not not even including trauma.
You don't have to have thetrauma, you just have to have
the commitment that becomesovercommitment.
SPEAKER_02 (18:56):
I I I wrote that symptom of burnout is a symptom
of overcommitment.
I I think that's a great point.
I think that there's most peoplewho go into this field, they
want to do something.
They don't want to just sit at adesk, they want to be doing
something, but thatovercommitment can play a
factor.
You talk about the some theleadership that plays a factor
(19:18):
too.
And it's also realizing how tobe a good mentor.
And I know that that's a wordthat's probably not used as much
in the first responder world andparticularly police than we do
in my job.
But I think that even in my job,it's been loss, and you you're a
clinical psychologist, you knowthat.
I think to me, having the best,having a mentor, you can have a
(19:40):
FTO or field training officer,that's great.
But having a mentor, I think isanother great way to avoid
burnout and also feel validatedor supported, or hey, you need a
slap in the face because you'redoing stupid stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
You know, I've worked with some agencies that
don't use the word mentor, theydon't use the word field
training officer, they use theword coach, and I kind of like
that.
Okay.
Because you, as a coach, yourjob is to make that player be
the absolute best player theycan be and and and direct them,
guide them, and get them intothe game.
(20:16):
And again, it falls back.
We spend too much time in theshort goal.
You have to, you know, you can'tbe a theorist if you're a cop.
You got to call to answer, yougot calls holding, but we have
to know what are we doing tomaintain that this guy is still
going to be a good cop fiveyears from right now, 10 years
from right now.
Over the decades, I've had anawful lot of interaction with
(20:39):
cops that have been sent to mefor fitness for duty evaluations
or counseling or something,whatever.
And they'll always say, you knowwhat?
I used to bust my ass for thisdepartment.
I used to lead this agency inDUI arrest.
I had more arrests than anybodyelse in the agency.
Not anymore.
I don't do shit anymore.
The more you do around here, themore you get screwed with.
(21:01):
I handle my calls.
That's all I do.
I don't do shit beyond that.
Because let me tell you, Doc,you never get in trouble for the
traffic stop you didn't make.
And that's what it sounds like.
That's what the cop who'sburning out and is going down a
down a treacherous road issounds like.
(21:22):
That's the first step intopolice corruption.
It's an act of omission.
You see someplace you need totake policing services, and you
don't.
You you go the other way and youdon't get involved.
And when you have a an entireagency that corrupts by acts of
omission, the community's notserved.
(21:43):
No.
And that's keeping cops centeredand understanding what's going
on in their life is terriblyimportant.
And I I look at this maybe froma very sort of different
perspective than a lot of peopledo.
Most mental health people.
my experience over the years,look at what's happening to the
(22:03):
police as psychologicalconsequences of their job.
I look at it as the biologicalconsequences.
If I ask most cops what's themost important skill you have,
the most important skill setthey'll typically say officer
safety.
(22:23):
Having street smarts, being ableto go handle a call, handle it
safely, and come home to yourloved ones.
And I I couldn't agree more withthem.
And that's the skill set that weteach from day one at the police
academy.
We teach officer safety, whichwe should teach.
But we have to take a look atwhat what is officer safety.
(22:44):
Officer safety is looking atevery situation from a distrust
perspective.
It's looking at every potentialevent that could go wrong and
derailing it before it goeswrong.
If you stop me tonight and youask for my driver's license and
I say I'll get it for you and Ireach for the glove box of my
(23:06):
vehicle and you let me reach forthe glove box without stopping
that, you're not practicing goodofficer safety.
Because to you my actions arealways a question mark.
You don't know what I'm doingand you have to interpret it as
the worst possible thing itcould be.
And if a good officer safetyprone cop is doing two things.
(23:28):
They're seeing everythingthrough a distrust perspective.
Everything's from you trust getscops killed.
Distrust keeps cops alive.
So if you don't know what I'mdoing you're gonna you're gonna
situate where I stand, where youstand, you're gonna wash my
hands, you're not gonna takeanything for granted.
And that becomes an orientationthat's basically cynicism
(23:52):
because cynicism is distrust ofhuman nature and motive but the
cop has to do it from abiologically elevated
perspective of alertness.
And in our book we call thishypervigilance the cop has to be
extremely vigilant, watchful.
They can't be asleep at thewheel and when a cop is highly
(24:13):
alert they're pushing theirbrain into this elevated level
of hypervigilance which is thesympathetic branch of the
autonomic nervous system.
So every day when the cop leavesthey have this homeostatic
opposite response they go fromhigh sympathetic to profound
parasympathetic detachedisolated disengaged.
(24:37):
And the cop isn't trained inthis so that it's what happens
after work that's actually moredamaging to the cop because they
drop into this depressive likestate and they stop talking.
They stop socializing they don'tsocialize because pretty soon
they're viewing everything froma perspective of distrust and
(25:00):
you know the the the otherpeople in the community are not
cops so they pretty soon becomeassholes in the cops
perspective.
And so the cop goes to work verygood cop comes home and as the
years progress these dominoesget knocked over they're not
going to the gym as much as theyused to go to the gym.
They're not going to church asmuch as they used to go to
(25:22):
church.
They're not socializing.
And I think it's harder nowbecause we have this this huge
infusion of social media anddigital entertainment so the cop
can go out do good police workthen come home and just get lost
in the digital world and you dothis for about 10 years and
you've put on about 15 poundsyou're not sleeping and you're
(25:45):
you're kind of pissed off andbut you still have this heavy
engagement in your in your workand that that's where we start
seeing the families crumble andhealth starts crumbling yeah
that's what but it all startswith something very valuable
officer safety if you're gonnateach somebody street survival
(26:06):
skills you have to teach thememotional survival skills.
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
You can't have one without the other it's an
interesting point because Iagree with you.
That's what I was going to sayis that we talk about like
officer safety and I think thatthe part of officer safety that
gets neglected the most is themental health safety that goes
with that.
And mental health safety caninclude physical health things
(26:33):
like sleeping making sure alland one of the things that comes
up a lot with my guys is the allor nothing thinking process.
You know and then you break theycan't let their parasympathetic
kind of cancel that out whenthey go home.
So they're always all ornothing.
I'm not a post all or nothing atwork but it is exhausting.
So that's why you need to let itgo once you leave work.
It's absolutely exhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
And it's biochemical too it's exhausting subjectively
we feel the exhaustion butwhat's happening is when an
officer practices officer safetythey push their brain in this
elevated level of alertness.
What's happening there is yourcortisol secretions really
increase.
The cortisol hits the liver theliver releases blood glucose
(27:18):
that blood glucose is the energythat the young cop feels when
they're out doing their job thatcortisol induced glucose dump
the blood glucose level iselevated but the body has
learned the pancreas kicks outinsulin which grabs a bunch of
this blood glucose and it takesit outside the metabolic process
(27:39):
and it infuses it in the lipidcells around the abdominal area.
It's kind of like don't burn upall your fuel but keep some of
your powder dry because we don'tknow how long this threat is
going to last.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
And there's the military guy talking I just
heard it keep your powder dry.
SPEAKER_01 (27:58):
Well it's just it's just it the you know it's the
same as the cop loads theirweapon but they also take extra
magazines in case it's aprotracted threat.
Well your body does the samething under stress it stores
blood glucose and the fat cellsaround the abdominal area bears
do this prior to hibernation abear is twice as fat at the end
(28:20):
of October as the bear is at thebeginning of October even if the
bear doesn't get food it's alldone by the infusion of glucose.
The problem with this is thatglucose receptor is not meant to
be used every day the the onethat lets the the glucose
transition across the cellularwall it's only meant to happen
(28:40):
seasonally in the winter as weprepare for as all mammals do
this preparing for winter thecop does it every single day.
So after eight 10 years there'sdamage to the glucose receptor
and that blood glucose remainsin the bloodstream and the cop
starts marching towards type 2diabetes they start with you
know borderline diabeticprocesses then bang now they're
(29:04):
40 45 and they're diagnosed astype 2 diabetic and it's this
progression is is is so sopredictable and so preventable
but we don't we retire the copafter 25 years of service and at
this point the cop is onmetformin a medication for
diabetic treatment and at thatpoint that officer's dealing
(29:28):
with an elevated risk of deathby stroke or heart disease that
we could have clearly preventedif we were looking at genuine
wellness and it starts withpracticing officer safety daily
most people are not in ahypervigilant state every day
they go to work and they can berelaxed and it's another day in
paradise you're doing that as acop you're not safe.
(29:49):
You're gonna miss the threats sothat when I when I talk about
the biology of of stress thatthat's what and an officer's
wellness that's that's how I'mconceptualizing it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Well I think we got to continue this conversation I
mean do you mind staying aroundfor another half hour so yes
we'll just end this episoderight now we're gonna get you to
the other side please likesubscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform a glowing review is
always helpful and as a reminderthis podcast is for
(30:23):
informational educational andentertainment purposes only if
you're struggling with a mentalhealth or substance abuse issue
please reach out to theprofessional counselor for
consultation if you are in amental health crisis for
assistance this number isavailable in the United States
and Canada
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve B.
So this is the podcast dedicatedto first responder mental
health, helping police, fire,EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their team.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
She was amazing, and I hope you enjoy that talk about
Grandit Recovery Centers, whichis made for uh first responders,
which is pretty out awesome.
But speaking of someone who isan advocate for first
responders, this is someone whowas recommended to me.
I had read his book and I reallyenjoyed it.
And this is about 10, 15 yearsago, just being honest with
(00:57):
Kevin here.
But when I read the book, Ithought it was really great.
And then I do my survey everyyear, as you guys heard in the
other episode.
And two people said to me, Youneed to have Kevin Gilmartin on.
And I'm like, perfect.
Let me contact him.
Let's take a shot.
The guy responded to me in likean hour.
And I can't tell you howinvaluable that is.
If you work in this world, youknow that getting a quick answer
(01:19):
is the key to greatrelationships.
But Kevin Gilmartin, welcome toFinding Your Not Finding.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Thank you for having me, Steve.
My pleasure.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
Resilience Development in Action.
I changed the name about a yearago, still haven't recommended
in my head.
It's really an honor to have youhere.
I I again I truly enjoyed thebook.
It talks a lot about theemotional survival skills that
people need to work in the firstresponder world, particularly
police officers.
I'd like you to introduceyourself maybe to people because
I feel like I know you fromthose reading and we we spoke
(01:50):
offline, so this is even better.
But can you introduce yourselfto the audience in case they
don't know who you are?
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Well, I'm a clinical psychologist retired from law
enforcement.
I'm an old guy, so I've had theblessing or curse, whatever you
want to call it, of being inthis field from pretty much the
beginning of the whole mentalhealth for a first responders
field.
Going back to the 1970s, workingat moderate-sized law
(02:17):
enforcement agency, and watchingwatching what wasn't existing
then.
There were no mental healthservices to speak of.
Then watching it as the yearshave developed and passed, and
through to my own retirementfrom law enforcement, then into
a life of being a clinicalpsychologist.
But I've just seen how the fieldhas changed and has shaped
(02:40):
differently, and how how ourservices have developed.
So that's sort of my background.
I'm raised up in Arizona afterhigh school, went into the
Marine Corps, then went to theUniversity of Arizona where I
obtained my PhD in clinicalpsychology.
I was sort of fortunate that Ifinished my degree fairly early
(03:02):
in my employment in lawenforcement.
So I was able to get into abehavioral sciences unit, which
was different than what they aretoday, but it let me sort of
have a firsthand see on thetrials and tribulations of a
life of uh being in lawenforcement, watching some of my
friends struggle and and somecrash during during those years.
SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
Well, when we read your book, there's clearly a lot
of passion that comes from thatexperience as a law enforcement
officer and working in thatfield.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
Well, you know, we train in law enforcement.
We we train for tacticalhands-on skills.
For example, going to the range.
Nobody would expect a lawenforcement officer to not have
to go qualify at the range.
And as the decades have passed,the way we qualify has changed.
(03:56):
It's no longer, you know, 25meters back, two minutes to
shoot five rounds.
Uh, that's what it was when Ijoined.
Then each year it became morereactive, it became more
judgment pistol shooting, itbecame more realistic based, uh,
night shooting, weekhandshooting, the things that that
we learned from the tragedies ofofficers being ill-prepared for
(04:18):
the tactical encounter they gotinto.
But we don't train for mentalhealth.
We we don't train for the theissues that we want to make sure
that that officer, when they'reon the street doing their job,
is 100%.
And we we don't.
I'll give you one very simpleexample where where we don't.
Very few police departments havemandatory training in sleep
(04:42):
hygiene.
Sleep impairment, where theycome from, how come cops are
high risk for sleep impairment?
Yet we know two things.
83% of police officers havediagnosable sleep disorders.
They're sleep impaired.
They they get two hours lesssleep every day than they need.
But the critical issue is whenyou compare a police officer to
(05:03):
a factory worker, in a judgmentand reaction time study, the
police officer makes 600% morereaction time errors and
judgment errors than a factoryworker.
Now, a judgment and reactiontime error for a police officer
can be deadly either to thepolice officer or to the citizen
(05:23):
they're interacting with.
So one of the things I believeI'm passionate for is if we're
going to put good quality policeofficers on the streets, we have
to factor in mental health andwellness services.
If we don't, we're incompetentin leadership.
Just the same as if we weren'tputting our officers on the
range to qualify.
And it's no different.
SPEAKER_02 (05:45):
Well, the the sleep hygiene thing is something I
talk about a lot, my guys,because it is hard.
You know, the shift work isreally hard, and if it's a 4-2,
it's even harder.
But it it's learning to do thatsleep hygiene, that regular
sleep, getting those hours,getting also kind of like
setting up your body to go fallasleep, whether you finish at
midnight, whether you you youyou finish at eight or four.
(06:08):
It doesn't matter.
I think that's important.
SPEAKER_01 (06:11):
Well, it it's terribly important.
I I think it's probably thesingle most important issue to
good judgment is sleep hygiene,because it also kicks off a
whole cascade of other biologicchanges that the cop will pay
the price for, not when they're25, but maybe when they're 45.
(06:31):
And what we start shorteninglife expectancy with some very
basic issues that can occur.
But uh as the years have passedfor me looking at this field, I
think we've done a wonderful jobwith mental health services in
some ways in in the UnitedStates.
And I think Canada in some wayshas been ahead of us.
(06:52):
Australia has been way ahead ofus.
Uh when I say us, I mean theUnited States.
But I think we make a mistake inthat we only play the short
game.
By that I mean the criticalincident has become the major
focus of many therapists.
The only culprit that's in townis post-traumatic stress
(07:12):
disorder, which I'm not in anyway minimizing PTSD.
No, but we played the short gameto get the person through the
aftermath of that traumaticevent, and yet we don't do
anything for the long game.
And there's one group of copsthat I've been studying and
watching for I think 52 yearsright now.
(07:33):
And we're going to have anotheruh reunion with in a in about
three weeks.
And I've watched that group veryspecifically as I've watched
them transition from young menand young women to old men and
old women.
And many of them are fallingvictim and dying from diseases
that could have been preventedif we had had wellness woven
(07:55):
into the fabric of the policingculture, which we don't have.
We're very good at at thecritical incident.
Uh you know, I remember gettingcalled to many major critical
incident scenes, going to thethe Oklahoma City bombing and
watching as as mental healthservices were being implemented
(08:16):
there.
They did a very good job.
Then shooting forward a fewyears to Hurricane Andrew,
Hurricane Katrina, and watchinghow more services work.
Then 9-11 and and realizing whenI got called to 9-11 that I
didn't need to be there.
There are so many mental healthservices.
(08:38):
And in your state, in inMassachusetts, I was running the
marathon when the bomb went offand was asked to stick around,
then realized there's no needfor me to be here.
We really have mental healthservices for the short game
understood, but we're still notdoing anything to educate our
police officers to understandthat if you're going to be a
(09:00):
police officer, you're at highrisk for heart disease, you're
at high risk for depression,you're at high risk for type 2
diabetes, and we're notconnecting those dots, and
they're clearly job-caused.
And we can do so much better ajob in the overall wellness, not
just committed to have a goodcop on the street, but given
(09:23):
this man or woman the capacityto enjoy their retirement, do
20, 30 years of service, thenhave a healthy, functional life
for the rest of their the yearson this earth.
So that that's kind of mypassions to doing that.
SPEAKER_02 (09:38):
I wrote so many notes here.
I don't think I'm gonna get allright away, but you know, I
don't want a good cop for rightnow, I want a good cop for a
long period of time.
And I think that that's lostsometimes.
You know, that's why, like forme, I I I push wellness visits
mental health-wise.
And those are not meant to beevery day or every week, and
(09:59):
frankly, they're meant for everyyear unless you need more.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
You know, go ahead.
Well, a quote that hit me rightbetween the eyes was a billion
years ago, many, many, manyyears ago.
I was attending uh a politicalpolitical talk by Robert F.
Kennedy a week before he wasassassinated.
And he made, and during thetalk, he just said every
(10:25):
community has the policedepartment that it deserves.
And someone's what do you meanby that?
He said, Well, if you're notgoing to take care of your
police, you're going to abuseyour police, then that's what
you'll get.
You'll you'll you'll get policeofficers that are substandard.
If you invest in your police,and I don't I don't mean just in
terms of uh salaries, butinvesting in them in resources,
(10:48):
involvement in the community,and woven into the fabric of
your community, you'll have anexcellent law enforcement
community.
You know, it was sort of likeSir Robert Peel's, you know, the
community is the police, and thepolice are the community.
And and and I think the mentalhealth field is one that really
can can lend itself to thatphilosophy.
SPEAKER_02 (11:09):
Well, having done both, for me, there's a lot of
exposures that we do as atherapist that can be called
vicarious trauma.
I know that there's a lot ofvicarious trauma that occurs in
the police world.
I think there's a lot ofcommonalities in that way.
I know for us, we talk totherapists, and one of the
things, and I have them I havethe fortunate luck to have many
(11:31):
mentors in my life that if I'mhaving an issue, I can call them
in my therapy world.
In our field of the firstresponder world, particularly
police, we usually haveleadership.
And sometimes leadership can bethe best thing in the world, and
sometimes it can be the hardestthing in the world.
This is come the this comes fromsomeone I work with who
(11:52):
submitted a question.
How do we get leadership to buyinto this?
Because when you talk aboutevery community gets the police
they deserve, essentially, howdo we get leadership to buy into
like getting a good cop, not fornow, but a good cop for the next
40 years?
SPEAKER_01 (12:08):
Well, you know, it's it's funny.
I don't know if I'll agree withyou that we have a lot of
leadership.
We have a lot of bosses, we havea lot of people that have rank
and they can tell you what todo.
SPEAKER_02 (12:17):
I've got these bars, can't you see them?
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
Yeah, and and that's exactly right.
So it's the genetic fallacy ofwho the order comes from.
You know, I'm the captain, soyou're gonna do when I say jump,
you're gonna say how hi.
That's great uh if you're theretelling the guy to jump.
But when you're asleep at threeo'clock in the morning, and that
cop is out on the street atthree o'clock in the morning,
you're not telling him to jump.
(12:40):
He has to have some internaldrive to do the right thing.
And you can't have leadershipunless you have ethical
followership.
You can't have just bosses thattell people what to do.
You have to inspire people, youhave to model it.
You know, I'll give uh what Ithink is kind of a simple-minded
example, but it impressed me.
(13:00):
I remember sticking aroundBoston after the marathon
bombing.
And on the the Friday, it wasthe day after the tragedy of the
MIT officer Sean Collier waskilled.
Thursday, but yeah.
Yeah, he was killed Thursdaynight, I believe.
And then it was Friday.
SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
Wednesday night, Wednesday night and to Thursday,
and then Friday was like, weshut down the city to go get it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
But on Friday, I was at Watertown at the Armory Mall,
the Arsenal Mall in Watertown.
And there were hundreds andhundreds of police officers
involved in that.
They shut the town down, theywere doing a house-by-house
search looking for the survivingbrother.
And they brought in a caterer tofeed all the cops.
(13:44):
I mean, there were hundreds ofcops, and there was a big line,
kind of the chow line.
Everybody was waiting in line togo get something to eat.
And uh Ed Davis, who was the thecommissioner of Boston PD at
that point, I watched him leavethe command trailer where they
were working and walk to theback of the line and get in the
(14:06):
line.
And he wasn't going to eat untilevery one of his personnel that
were out working had gottensomething to eat.
And and I I mentioned the guy infront of me, I said, you know,
you want to know what leadershiplooks like?
That's what leadership lookslike.
He's gonna make sure that thepeople doing the job are getting
fed and getting adequate water.
(14:28):
Then he'll pill eat when they'redone.
And the guy in front of me says,you know, I'm in line waiting to
get my boss's meal.
And I thought that was justgreat because he used the word
boss.
I said, Yeah, yeah, okay.
So so you can be his waiter.
Yeah, exactly.
(14:49):
So in in law enforcement today,I think we have a lot of people
that are visionary, but youcan't get your vision
implemented unless the men andwomen are willing to do that for
you.
And you can't do that by burningout people, pissing them off,
and and being vilified by them.
And true leaders are understandmost of the time the answers
(15:12):
come from the from the peopledoing the job in the trenches.
And you just have to synthesizethat information and put it into
your vision.
So you you can't abuse rank andfile personnel.
And when you do that, you'reyou're just a boss.
SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
Just a quick break, guys.
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I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
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Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
leisure brand.
And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
support different causes.
I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
(15:53):
responders, our nonprofits,their name to uh Deemed Fit, and
I know they're talking to them.
They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
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And if you go there right nowand you buy anything, including
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(16:17):
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Now, right back to the episode.
And you know, we we have enoughbosses, right?
Yeah.
I think that that's the otherpart, too, is that I find that
(16:37):
there's a toxicity that canexist in some leadership that
becomes like suddenly you havebars and your shit don't sink.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
Well, you know, you have to remember many of those
people who get promoted are asvictimized by the policing
experience uh as the rank andfile guy who doesn't get
promoted.
And and they just take that withthem.
But you know, the the big issuethat I look at in police work is
burnout.
(17:07):
You know, any anybody can be asprinter.
You know, anybody can be asprinter.
I I've I've run the BostonMarathon a dozen times, and I'm
always amazed at watching guystake off out there from
Hopkinton, and then they're justracing, and then you get
somewhere, oh, about Wellesleyor someplace like that, and
(17:27):
they're bent over on the side ofthe road, and you hear somebody
coming along keeping their pace,and they just bust up Heartbreak
Hill, and they they race it intoBoston, and you know, and then
they're done.
So burnout is the syndrome ofovercommitment that leads to
underproductivity.
And cops, young cops, there'snothing more enthusiastic than a
(17:51):
young cop.
They want to get out on thestreet, they want to do their
job, they're engaged.
It's very easy to get a youngcop to come to work.
They want to come to work.
It has almost a recreationalquality in most agencies.
I'm I'm sure right now there'sthere's some some of these large
American cities that the copswould just assume not.
I don't know that, but I Iassume because their working
(18:13):
conditions are so miserable.
Uh, but in in most communities,I I speak at police academies.
I see these young kids, they'reno different.
You know, they they might spenda lot of time on their cell
phones and digital devices, butthey're they're the same as cops
have always been.
They want to go out and do a dothe job.
If there's something hot, a hotcall coming down, they want to
(18:35):
be part of it.
And it's very committed.
But unless they know how tomaintain themselves and keep
those other functions in theirlife going, they'll they'll end
up after about eight or tenyears a casualty of the job.
Not not even including trauma.
You don't have to have thetrauma, you just have to have
the commitment that becomesovercommitment.
SPEAKER_02 (18:56):
I I I wrote that symptom of burnout is a symptom
of overcommitment.
I I think that's a great point.
I think that there's most peoplewho go into this field, they
want to do something.
They don't want to just sit at adesk, they want to be doing
something, but thatovercommitment can play a
factor.
You talk about the some theleadership that plays a factor
(19:18):
too.
And it's also realizing how tobe a good mentor.
And I know that that's a wordthat's probably not used as much
in the first responder world andparticularly police than we do
in my job.
But I think that even in my job,it's been loss, and you you're a
clinical psychologist, you knowthat.
I think to me, having the best,having a mentor, you can have a
(19:40):
FTO or field training officer,that's great.
But having a mentor, I think isanother great way to avoid
burnout and also feel validatedor supported, or hey, you need a
slap in the face because you'redoing stupid stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
You know, I've worked with some agencies that
don't use the word mentor, theydon't use the word field
training officer, they use theword coach, and I kind of like
that.
Okay.
Because you, as a coach, yourjob is to make that player be
the absolute best player theycan be and and and direct them,
guide them, and get them intothe game.
(20:16):
And again, it falls back.
We spend too much time in theshort goal.
You have to, you know, you can'tbe a theorist if you're a cop.
You got to call to answer, yougot calls holding, but we have
to know what are we doing tomaintain that this guy is still
going to be a good cop fiveyears from right now, 10 years
from right now.
Over the decades, I've had anawful lot of interaction with
(20:39):
cops that have been sent to mefor fitness for duty evaluations
or counseling or something,whatever.
And they'll always say, you knowwhat?
I used to bust my ass for thisdepartment.
I used to lead this agency inDUI arrest.
I had more arrests than anybodyelse in the agency.
Not anymore.
I don't do shit anymore.
The more you do around here, themore you get screwed with.
(21:01):
I handle my calls.
That's all I do.
I don't do shit beyond that.
Because let me tell you, Doc,you never get in trouble for the
traffic stop you didn't make.
And that's what it sounds like.
That's what the cop who'sburning out and is going down a
down a treacherous road issounds like.
(21:22):
That's the first step intopolice corruption.
It's an act of omission.
You see someplace you need totake policing services, and you
don't.
You you go the other way and youdon't get involved.
And when you have a an entireagency that corrupts by acts of
omission, the community's notserved.
(21:43):
No.
And that's keeping cops centeredand understanding what's going
on in their life is terriblyimportant.
And I I look at this maybe froma very sort of different
perspective than a lot of peopledo.
Most mental health people.
my experience over the years,look at what's happening to the
(22:03):
police as psychologicalconsequences of their job.
I look at it as the biologicalconsequences.
If I ask most cops what's themost important skill you have,
the most important skill setthey'll typically say officer
safety.
(22:23):
Having street smarts, being ableto go handle a call, handle it
safely, and come home to yourloved ones.
And I I couldn't agree more withthem.
And that's the skill set that weteach from day one at the police
academy.
We teach officer safety, whichwe should teach.
But we have to take a look atwhat what is officer safety.
(22:44):
Officer safety is looking atevery situation from a distrust
perspective.
It's looking at every potentialevent that could go wrong and
derailing it before it goeswrong.
If you stop me tonight and youask for my driver's license and
I say I'll get it for you and Ireach for the glove box of my
(23:06):
vehicle and you let me reach forthe glove box without stopping
that, you're not practicing goodofficer safety.
Because to you my actions arealways a question mark.
You don't know what I'm doingand you have to interpret it as
the worst possible thing itcould be.
And if a good officer safetyprone cop is doing two things.
(23:28):
They're seeing everythingthrough a distrust perspective.
Everything's from you trust getscops killed.
Distrust keeps cops alive.
So if you don't know what I'mdoing you're gonna you're gonna
situate where I stand, where youstand, you're gonna wash my
hands, you're not gonna takeanything for granted.
And that becomes an orientationthat's basically cynicism
(23:52):
because cynicism is distrust ofhuman nature and motive but the
cop has to do it from abiologically elevated
perspective of alertness.
And in our book we call thishypervigilance the cop has to be
extremely vigilant, watchful.
They can't be asleep at thewheel and when a cop is highly
(24:13):
alert they're pushing theirbrain into this elevated level
of hypervigilance which is thesympathetic branch of the
autonomic nervous system.
So every day when the cop leavesthey have this homeostatic
opposite response they go fromhigh sympathetic to profound
parasympathetic detachedisolated disengaged.
(24:37):
And the cop isn't trained inthis so that it's what happens
after work that's actually moredamaging to the cop because they
drop into this depressive likestate and they stop talking.
They stop socializing they don'tsocialize because pretty soon
they're viewing everything froma perspective of distrust and
(25:00):
you know the the the otherpeople in the community are not
cops so they pretty soon becomeassholes in the cops
perspective.
And so the cop goes to work verygood cop comes home and as the
years progress these dominoesget knocked over they're not
going to the gym as much as theyused to go to the gym.
They're not going to church asmuch as they used to go to
(25:22):
church.
They're not socializing.
And I think it's harder nowbecause we have this this huge
infusion of social media anddigital entertainment so the cop
can go out do good police workthen come home and just get lost
in the digital world and you dothis for about 10 years and
you've put on about 15 poundsyou're not sleeping and you're
(25:45):
you're kind of pissed off andbut you still have this heavy
engagement in your in your workand that that's where we start
seeing the families crumble andhealth starts crumbling yeah
that's what but it all startswith something very valuable
officer safety if you're gonnateach somebody street survival
(26:06):
skills you have to teach thememotional survival skills.
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
You can't have one without the other it's an
interesting point because Iagree with you.
That's what I was going to sayis that we talk about like
officer safety and I think thatthe part of officer safety that
gets neglected the most is themental health safety that goes
with that.
And mental health safety caninclude physical health things
(26:33):
like sleeping making sure alland one of the things that comes
up a lot with my guys is the allor nothing thinking process.
You know and then you break theycan't let their parasympathetic
kind of cancel that out whenthey go home.
So they're always all ornothing.
I'm not a post all or nothing atwork but it is exhausting.
So that's why you need to let itgo once you leave work.
It's absolutely exhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
And it's biochemical too it's exhausting subjectively
we feel the exhaustion butwhat's happening is when an
officer practices officer safetythey push their brain in this
elevated level of alertness.
What's happening there is yourcortisol secretions really
increase.
The cortisol hits the liver theliver releases blood glucose
(27:18):
that blood glucose is the energythat the young cop feels when
they're out doing their job thatcortisol induced glucose dump
the blood glucose level iselevated but the body has
learned the pancreas kicks outinsulin which grabs a bunch of
this blood glucose and it takesit outside the metabolic process
(27:39):
and it infuses it in the lipidcells around the abdominal area.
It's kind of like don't burn upall your fuel but keep some of
your powder dry because we don'tknow how long this threat is
going to last.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
And there's the military guy talking I just
heard it keep your powder dry.
SPEAKER_01 (27:58):
Well it's just it's just it the you know it's the
same as the cop loads theirweapon but they also take extra
magazines in case it's aprotracted threat.
Well your body does the samething under stress it stores
blood glucose and the fat cellsaround the abdominal area bears
do this prior to hibernation abear is twice as fat at the end
(28:20):
of October as the bear is at thebeginning of October even if the
bear doesn't get food it's alldone by the infusion of glucose.
The problem with this is thatglucose receptor is not meant to
be used every day the the onethat lets the the glucose
transition across the cellularwall it's only meant to happen
(28:40):
seasonally in the winter as weprepare for as all mammals do
this preparing for winter thecop does it every single day.
So after eight 10 years there'sdamage to the glucose receptor
and that blood glucose remainsin the bloodstream and the cop
starts marching towards type 2diabetes they start with you
know borderline diabeticprocesses then bang now they're
(29:04):
40 45 and they're diagnosed astype 2 diabetic and it's this
progression is is is so sopredictable and so preventable
but we don't we retire the copafter 25 years of service and at
this point the cop is onmetformin a medication for
diabetic treatment and at thatpoint that officer's dealing
(29:28):
with an elevated risk of deathby stroke or heart disease that
we could have clearly preventedif we were looking at genuine
wellness and it starts withpracticing officer safety daily
most people are not in ahypervigilant state every day
they go to work and they can berelaxed and it's another day in
paradise you're doing that as acop you're not safe.
(29:49):
You're gonna miss the threats sothat when I when I talk about
the biology of of stress thatthat's what and an officer's
wellness that's that's how I'mconceptualizing it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Well I think we got to continue this conversation I
mean do you mind staying aroundfor another half hour so yes
we'll just end this episoderight now we're gonna get you to
the other side please likesubscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform a glowing review is
always helpful and as a reminderthis podcast is for
(30:23):
informational educational andentertainment purposes only if
you're struggling with a mentalhealth or substance abuse issue
please reach out to theprofessional counselor for
consultation if you are in amental health crisis for
assistance this number isavailable in the United States
and Canada
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