June 3, 2026 • 31 mins
A call can end, the scene can clear, and your body can still be on the call months later. We sit down with clinical psychologist Dr. Stacy Raymond to talk about what actually works for first responder mental health when the job leaves you with nightmares, intrusive images, a short fuse, and sleep that never fully comes back. We also dig into why the “tough it out” culture quietly pushes people toward avoidance and alcohol instead of recovery.
We get practical about EMDR therapy (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) and how it’s used with police officers, firefighters, EMS, dispatchers, corrections, and veterans. Stacy breaks down bilateral stimulation methods like eye movements, handheld tappers, and alternating tones, and we clear up common misconceptions, including the fear that EMDR is “electroshock” or that you must retell every detail of your worst call. We also talk about the clinical guardrails that matter: a real intake, readiness, and careful screening for alcohol misuse or prescription medication abuse so the work stays safe and the gains stick.
We zoom out to the bigger story: ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences) and why higher ACE scores can raise risk for operational stress injuries, plus how peer support and confidentiality shape whether people ever feel safe enough to get help. The takeaway we want you to hold onto is tactical: treat acute stress early, protect your sleep, and keep your brain mission-ready without carrying the call forever. If you’re in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance in the United States and Canada.
To reach Stacy, please go to her website: https://www.drstacyraymond.com/
Her Instagram is https://www.instagram.com/stacyshrink1414/
You can buy her book here
Subscribe, share this with someone on your shift, and leave a review so more first responders can find real trauma tools that work.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome.
I'm so happy to have you here.
I'm hoping that you guyscontinue to like and subscribe
if you think about it and thenput in a review.
Those reviews are alwayshelpful.
But today I have someone that Imet through online and I read
her book, and it's called one ofher books.
I didn't read the other one yet,but I'm gonna be reading it,
calling Helping the Helpers.
But this one is Dump the Bucket.
(00:50):
Let's see, Killing Trauma andPolice with EMDR.
I'm covering her name, that'snot fair.
I read the book, You Know Me, INever Lie on my podcast.
You can see there's a littlecrease, there's little notes,
there's a whole nine thing.
But the good thing is Stacyalready sucked up to me.
She signed the first page.
So haha, I got a signed version.
But in all reality, it makingEMDR reachable for first
(01:12):
responders is so important.
And this book does it in droves.
So welcome, uh Dr.
Stacy Raymond.
This is the last time I'm gonnacall you, Doctor.
Welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
Thank you for having me.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
I think that, you know, I introduced a little bit
of both books already, but youknow, you're much more than two
books, I'm assuming.
Anyway, I hope.
But I really felt like I got totalk to you a few minutes before
the interview, and then, youknow, we've exchanged a few
times.
We seem very similar.
I think we have a karaoke nightthat we're gonna do sometimes.
Right.
How about you introduce yourselfto my audience who may not know
who you are?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Sure.
All right, so I'm Stacy Raymond.
I've been a clinicalpsychologist in private practice
for 27 years.
So I work in Ridgefield,Connecticut.
I am a peer support clinicalsupervisor for a local police
department.
I grew up raised by a Marine anda police officer.
(02:09):
He just turned 90 yesterday.
So he said, you know, Marinesdon't die.
They just go to hell andregroup.
That's what he told me.
So I'm gonna follow that.
So it it was it was difficult attimes, you know, to be raised by
someone with that background,especially because he he came
from his own issues even beforehe enlisted in the military.
(02:31):
But that was my firstunderstanding of what it was
like to be a police officer, atleast to live with one and to
see the work that he did and howit impacted him, and to live
with somebody withpost-traumatic stress that
never, never addressed itbecause, you know, he's 90 and
that age group, they don't talkabout it.
Like I've tried to talk to, I'vesaid, I've looked at, I've
(02:51):
talked to other veterans, combatvets, I've talked to police
officers that have been in somepretty bad calls.
And he says, no, we're nottalking about it.
And that's that.
So my first job was I was apsychologist in a women's
prison, FCI Danbury.
And I had to become weaponstrained, I had, and also in
(03:13):
self-defense.
And, you know, it was thepopulation, there were 900 women
behind the wall, 150 in thecamp.
And just learning that most ofthose women came from an abuse
background.
And then they picked the peoplethat they hung out with, either
gangs or prostitution or engagedin activities that were illegal,
(03:35):
and they ended up in prison.
So the effect of abuse on thehuman psyche and how the adult
unfolds from there, I found thatvery interesting.
But also very interesting wasthat the COs, the correctional
officers, they themselves had alot of issues.
You know, alcohol, you know,short fews, angry outbursts,
(03:58):
inappropriate relationships withthe inmates, some sneaking drugs
into the into the prison forsexual favors, you know, just a
side of officers that I justwent in very naive and then, you
know, realized that their stresslevel dealing with inmates,
walking into an institutionwhere you can actually feel it.
(04:21):
When you come through the Sallyport, like there's this
heaviness because there's 900people in there that are not
going to leave.
They will leave eventually.
We had a couple of lifers, butyou know, it's it's a very heavy
environment.
And then starting around 2015, Istarted getting more and more
trauma clients.
(04:41):
I started seeing firefighters,police, dispatchers, paramedics,
EMTs, just and veterans, combatveterans.
And I found, much to mysurprise, I was just so
comfortable with thispopulation.
I knew how to talk to them.
They knew how to relate to me,they would open up to me.
And so that became like a realintense interest of mine.
(05:05):
And then I became involved withthe local police department, and
then I became schism trained.
I do debriefs on a regular basisnow.
I give presentations locally onpost-traumatic stress, how to
identify it and what to do aboutit.
And I do that at policedepartments and fire
departments.
(05:25):
So that's me.
So you don't do much.
SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
Is that what you're saying?
unknown (05:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
And then I then there's my civilian clients who
they also have abuse histories,or they have their own traumas,
you know, perhaps a spouse thatdied by suicide, or they lost a
child in a car accident, or theyhave a terminal diagnosis.
You know, just it's all trauma.
It's just all all trauma that Ideal with.
(05:51):
And I use EMDR, eye movementdesensitization and reprocessing
therapy.
And I find that to be the mosteffective, quickest way to
alleviate the effects of trauma.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Yeah, and I mean, there's so many things, all
joking aside, that we can gotowards here.
Because I think that for me,like the the thing that's really
help guide my treatmentsometimes, because I am EMDR
trained just like yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
I'm not EMDR IA for my own personal reasons that I
shall share maybe offline here.
But I I am I've done I've donethat for about 12 years, follow
trainings, and it's such themost effective tool.
You mentioned SISM, the crisisintervention.
That's so important too.
(06:38):
Peer support, I can go down somany aisles because I think peer
support is one of the thingsthat is underused, but sometimes
it's underused because peoplewho are put in a peer support
place sometimes gab to their owndepartment, and that's the
biggest noise.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Right.
There has to be confidentiality.
But the other thing I'veobserved, and I've talked to
other clinicians who work withuh police and fire, sometimes
the people that need peersupport the most or need therapy
the most are peer supportersbecause they come from that
background where it's okay forme to be there for you, but I
can't ask for help.
I don't need me.
(07:14):
No, I don't need help, but I'llbe there for you.
So that's that's myunderstanding.
And not everybody on peersupport, it comes from you know,
a damaged uh history, but a lotof them do.
And then, yeah, if you can'ttrust your peer support team
because they might talk tocommand staff, well, that's a
problem.
That that that's not gonna work.
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
I want to just start off maybe about a little bit
about that, because to me, theACEs is just the most important
thing to do as a therapist,particularly working with first
responders.
Right.
I do like working with mycivilians, particularly uh
people with trauma.
And I'm pulling out the bookbecause literally one of my
favorite parts is exactly what Ishare with the first responder
world.
(07:56):
It's the research stuff that youtalked about.
ACES is adverse child events,just for everyone to know.
And it's only 10, 10 questions,they're pretty yes or no
answers, really easy to do.
Sorry if I do a little educationhere, but to me, that's the
greatest thing.
You know, I'm I'm pulling thebook because you know, I didn't
know what the numbers were forcivilians.
So thank you for pulling that inbecause I never looked those up.
SPEAKER_02 (08:18):
But you know, yeah, it's the average score is a one,
and that's based on 17,500surveys that were given to
civilians.
So the average score is a one.
So technically, even a two isthat's a hundred percent higher,
right?
That's that's that's considereda high score.
Two and up.
And then you want to comment oncops?
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
Yeah, well, that's what I was thinking is that you
just 2.6 is for the cops, andthat's a research from 2025.
Yeah, but then they have 3.5 and3.6, which is typically what I
hear here about a fourpersonally.
I've never done the exact math.
Yeah.
But I think that explaining whata four is to people and also
realizing that while it doesindicate, and again, I say the
(09:01):
whole world post-traumaticstress disorder.
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
I know that's a dirty word sometimes in Yeah, we
call it an injury because whenwhen we use the word disorder,
which is what's in the DS V,people feel like, oh, that's
something like attention deficitdisorder.
I'm gonna have that for the restof my life.
And I've I've sat with so manypeople, civilians and first
responders and veterans, thatyes, they show up with they meet
(09:27):
the criteria for the disorderaccording to the DSM V, but
they, you know, when we're done,they do not meet the criteria.
And so they do not have thatissue anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
But, you know, explaining a little bit about
what the like for me personally,well, I agree with you, I get
that.
I tell people, especially theyounger guys, I'm like, let's
keep it acute stress and thennever get to the post-traumatic
stress.
That's the important part.
SPEAKER_02 (09:52):
I like to address it in the acute stress, though,
technically, right?
I'm gonna get clinical here.
You can't call it acute stressafter a month.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
I know, but that's what I mean.
But trying to get people intowellness visits, talking to
people.
SPEAKER_02 (10:04):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
Stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02 (10:06):
Act on it when it is acute stress, right?
Because it's all the symptoms ofpost-traumatic stress, right?
Sleep disruption, you know, itcould be nightmares, it could be
intrusive images, it could be,you know, hyper startle, hyper
vigilance.
You know, having a short fusewith other people.
You don't have to check all ofthose, but if you check most of
(10:27):
them, and you just had an eventthat happened, right?
It could be a suicide in yourdepartment, it could be a child
death that you attended as afirst responder, whatever the
case may be.
Acting on it before it becomeslike locked into your nervous
system.
Act on it when it's acutestress, and you it will never be
(10:47):
called post-traumatic stress.
Right.
So that's what I think Steve'ssaying is right, Steve, like act
on it early.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
I think that that's why I talk about that because I
tell people like I I just had agentleman, I'm gonna just say
there were three adverse events,significant adverse events,
okay, less than 12 hours.
Oh wow.
And they contacted me within aweek.
And right, so he's workedintensely, and that was the
(11:16):
dumpster fire.
But guess what?
We put the dumpster fire out.
And yeah, does he think about itsometimes?
Sure, but it's not distressinganymore to him.
Correct.
And the younger guy, and he'slike, Why don't people do that?
I'm like, because you got to bea tough guy and let it really
fuck you up over a year.
SPEAKER_02 (11:32):
Well, here's the problem, right?
It's the stigma against gettinghelp.
I think younger people are muchmore open to talking about it,
addressing it.
Younger people will move pastacute trauma faster than older
people just because our brainsare just a little more
entrenched as we get older.
So young person coming in, morewilling to try, you know,
(11:53):
therapy, can move right pastthose three traumas that happen
within a 12-hour period.
And it's it feels like a miraclefor people when they when they
actually do that.
But if, you know, the olderschool people, they're gonna be
like, well, yeah, so my sleep isa little disrupted right now.
And yeah, I've had a fewnightmares and I have some
(12:13):
intrusive images or whatever.
But I'm just gonna tell youright now, their go-to is gonna
be alcohol.
And for the most part, and let'ssee how this goes.
But when you see how it goes, itthen takes root into your into
your brain, and it's harder todisentangle it from your
day-to-day experience, right?
(12:35):
So then it be it kind of showsits ugly head when you least
expect it.
You could, you know, two monthsafter the incident, you could be
having dinner, and then all of asudden you're thinking about the
dead child incident, and youdon't know why.
So a lot of them think thatthey're losing their mind.
I must be crazy.
And so I don't really want tolet anyone in on that because I
don't want to lose my my gun andmy badge, and I don't want to be
(12:58):
judged, and I don't want to bepassed over for promotion and
all that.
But if you look at it astactical resiliency, go and get
help so that you can stay sharpand you can then sleep better.
Then you don't have to drink asmuch in order to deal with the
symptoms.
And you, you know, that'stactical readiness.
(13:18):
It's not just making sure thatyou've got your, you know, your
vest on and your guns clean andloaded and everything, all your
gear is ready to go.
It's making sure that this isready to go.
So that's really the gist of ofmy book.
And like you going and and doingEMDR, which is not like CBT.
It's not, you know, cops don'thave to talk about the
(13:41):
nitty-gritty details of the deadbaby call.
I could ask them to go to theworst part of that, and that's
where we start, right there.
Go to the worst part, get animage in your head of the worst
part of that call.
You do not have to tell me thedetails about it.
Because a lot of them are afraidof getting emotional too, right?
This is alpha males, you know.
They're like, damn, last thing Iwant to do is cry.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
And I think that that's exactly what, you know,
one of my my my training withthe EMDR, it was with the MDR
IA.
SPEAKER_02 (14:13):
IA meaning just so people know, it's Mvria, which
is the InternationalAssociation.
So you can belong to it and youdon't have to belong to it, but
you can still be certified inEMDR.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
Thank you for I forget sometimes, so I do
appreciate that.
But what I've what I told peopleis like my first experience when
we had to do it ourselves, Iended up with someone who is not
like she didn't want to say whatit was.
SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
So we ended, I ended up doing my first ever
experience with EMDR was nottalking about what was going on
on, uh-huh, seeing her cry,doing the passes.
Again, I was brand new, so I wasstill like buy the book 15 to
20, blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
But what I tell people is that nothing really
scares that fright more thansomeone not talking on your
first ever one, and thensuddenly everyone's done, and
she's still going on.
So everyone turns to you withthis non-verbal person doing
that.
And I think that that's how Iexplain.
Like, you don't need to tell methe details.
No, you can have those thoughtsin your mind.
But when you say, Okay, then I'mgonna start.
(15:16):
I I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
It's really a private experience in their head
that the healing is happeningprivately, kind of in their
head, and then when you stopeither the eye movements or if
they're holding the tappers andit's buzzing left, I just do the
tappers because I find it lessdistracting.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
But what I was gonna say is that the other part too
is when you don't address thefront end, like we said, the
younger guys doing that a lotbetter nowadays than they have
your kid.
What happens is you're gonnaopen up whatever the the no
trigger here, trigger warningfor those who are upset.
You see the dead child, but thatmight open another channel of
other stuff that you saw.
It opens another channel, andnow suddenly you have six,
(15:52):
seven, eight, nine, twelve,twenty adverse events that you
got to kind of process.
They typically you don't do all20, but I'm not gonna go there
too too much detail.
SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Right, that's where it's the clinician's call, as
far as you know, do we write itdown and table it for later, or
is it really something thatneeds to go be gone after in
this session?
So that that comes withexperience as a clinician.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
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(16:35):
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(16:59):
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Now, right back to the episode.
Well, I think that that's whereI wanted to go with that.
(17:21):
That's exactly, you know, havinga having have this education, I
think there's two things typesof education.
I feel like I do a lot ofeducation with the people who
want E MDR.
SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
Who want, you know, as you mentioned in the book,
I'm not gonna make the memorydisappear.
I'm just gonna make it so thatit's in the rear view mirror and
you know it's there.
Right.
Number two.
I think the other part too isexplaining to clinicians in
particular.
I think sometimes the cliniciansare so like, you know, I do
believe in some of the structureof it, but sometimes you gotta
move a little bit of thestructure for XYZ reasons.
Correct.
(17:52):
I think that for me, there's twothings I want to talk about.
Is can you tell me more what'syour like why are like the
entrance of EMDR throughclinicians and first responders?
I feel a lot of resistance comesfrom the clinicians as well as
the first responders.
Can you explain a little bit ofwhat their resistance are, what
they go through?
I think you talk about it in thebook, but I'd love to hear what
you have to say about it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
So, who who are you asking about for resistance?
SPEAKER_01 (18:16):
Both on the police side and then sometimes the
clinicians.
I find that clinicians do notunderstand how to work with
first responders.
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
Correct.
And so, in my experience and andwhat and talking to clinicians
who are very experienced workingwith first responders, is the
the first responders want tojust get in and get out.
They want to do EMDR.
They don't need a whole lot ofpreparation.
Obviously, you know, you need tohave them understand what EMDR
(18:44):
is.
You they have to you have toestablish a calm place, you have
to make sure that they canhandle the, you know, the
emotions of of what's gonna comeup, right?
But then once they're ready,it's time, it's go time.
It's like, let's, and usually,you know, I let people pick what
they want to work on.
And so they're gonna, they'regonna pick something from their
(19:05):
work experience.
But if they are of the groupthat have come from adverse
childhood experiences,eventually we're gonna get to
that, you know, if they were hitas a kid and it resulted in
bruises or cuts, if they wereconstantly criticized that they
could do better, or if they feltlike no one really cared.
(19:26):
If you're gonna cry like that,go to your room, or being called
a sissy or a baby, you know, forcrying.
You know, stop crying or I'llgive you something to cry about,
right?
So that's emotional neglect.
Okay.
And so eventually we end up backat those traumas, and those are
childhood traumas.
But you don't have to worryabout police and fire,
(19:50):
especially being too fragile tojump into the first target
memory.
They're very hardy people, thesefirst responders, and even the,
you know, even the combat vets.
But what you have to obviouslyscreen for is alcohol abuse,
right?
Because there's not going to beany progress made.
(20:11):
If they're actively abusingalcohol, you know, they may feel
relief after doing an EMDRsession, but you lose that
ground between first session andsecond session if they're going
home and drinking.
Because those, you know,whatever neural pathways that
were broken and then rewired.
And what I mean by broken isthat, and I don't mean that in a
(20:31):
harsh way, but that that imagethat just keeps coming up, keeps
coming up, keeps coming up, thatstarts to go away during EMDR.
And then other ways of lookingat that trauma start to develop.
That development will go away ifthe person is going home and
drinking.
So the person has to bemodifying their alcohol intake
(20:55):
and/or they need to go to rehabfirst, and you know, if they're
that bad.
Because you EMDR is gonna juststir up more emotion than
they're gonna be able to handle,and they're gonna try to handle
it with alcohol.
So you have to make sure thatalcohol is not their go-to.
So as long as you've ruled outthat they're an active abusing
(21:17):
alcoholic or prescription meds,right?
Because there are people that Iwas gonna say that after you
were done.
SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
That's prescription meds are very much the other
problem.
SPEAKER_02 (21:26):
Xanax, you know, clonopin, you know, as long as
the person is following it asprescribed and they're not
abusing it, you can do EMDRwork.
But if there's any suspicionthat they're getting it on the
street or they're, you know,they have a family member that
gets it regularly and nowthey're using it and they're
using it to deal with theiremotional pain, that person's
(21:50):
not ready for EMDR.
So, but as clinicians, you don'thave to be afraid of doing EMDR
with with police and fire andveterans as long As we rule out
what I just said.
But I don't find that firstresponders or veterans are
afraid of doing it either.
They want to feel better.
(22:11):
And if you can do a session withthem where you bring their
distress level from here down tohere and it's palpable to them,
that is so gratifying for them.
And it's gratifying for theclinician because now they have
hope.
Now they have hope, like, wow,okay.
So I don't have to live with allof this haunting me for the rest
(22:32):
of my life and having crappysleep.
There's actually some hope thatI can feel better.
And I didn't even have to drinkor I didn't have to take a
Percocet.
I didn't, you know, I didn'thave to take more clonapin in
order to, in order to calm mynervous system.
So so that's really encouraging.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
But yeah, well, I would also say to you, there's a
few things that I want to add tothat is a lot of things that can
get you know as much as it's Idon't want to ever use these
words, but I'll use it on thepodcast, but I don't use it with
my clients.
You want to speed up theprocess, figure out what the
touchstone memory or theearliest memory is.
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
And typically adding taking care of those will take
care of a lot of other ones.
How I explain the process, yousay broken, I say a little
different.
I say, look, your trauma's stuckin your midbrain or your limbic
system right there.
So every time it kind of showsup similar, you go into fight or
flight mode because it's nowherein your cerebral cortex.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
I think EMDR does is that it creates those neural
pathways with to bring it to thelong term and your cerebral
cortex so that it's still there,it's never going to go away, but
it's no longer giving you thatfight or flight response.
So a little bit of what Iexplained.
So I think it's right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:41):
And I would do the same thing, but I was commenting
on resistance because that wasyour question.
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
So yeah, but I think the resist the resistance for me
from therapists is there's this,oh, can I can can I handle it?
And I'm like, what's differentworking with Leos or law
enforcement officers?
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
Yeah, I I don't, I don't that's not really
something that uh No, but itcomes up for me.
SPEAKER_01 (24:03):
And I hear that a lot from therapists.
How do you do it with them?
Same as I do it with civilians,right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:09):
I don't see the difference.
No and the the other part too isI I think that what happens a
lot with different people isthat they they start feeling
better, but I always remindthem, I said, what I would like
to do, uh you say you check forsubstance use, but for the first
particular first sessions, Ialso go like either we'll go at
the end of the day if you'regonna go home and take it easy,
(24:31):
or we do it at the beginning ofthe day if you come off shift
and you're gonna go to bed,because it can be exhausting at
the time.
SPEAKER_02 (24:37):
It can.
That's that's absolutely true.
It does usually wipe people out.
So I absolutely agree with that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:42):
I think it's really the neuropathways just being
formed that as much as I believein neuroplasticity, it takes
energy, it takes a lot of energythat you're not aware of.
SPEAKER_02 (24:51):
It's not a run, it's a it's really a lot of energy
that and and it could be someonewho says that it was my first
worst call.
That's what I want to addressbecause that's the one that
keeps coming up.
Well, now we're going back 10,15, 20 years.
And so I find the further backthat you go, the more tired the
individual is at the end of thesession.
That's what I find.
SPEAKER_01 (25:10):
So Yeah, I think that you have a you do use an
example of one of them.
I can't remember that it was along, like it was a memory from
years ago, and I can't rememberwho it was.
I know I read Right.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
It might have been Officer Elstey with the sounds
right the dog had a deceasedinfant in its mouth.
And that was, you know, 20 yearsprior.
And it was just as fresh forhim.
And the reason it stung so much,well, first off, it's an infant
in in a dog's mouth in theseven, what is he, 73rd
(25:41):
precinct, bad area, you know,very tough area.
There's the most homicides forNew York, at least at that time,
were happening in those in thoseprecincts around there.
And he had a baby girl at homehimself, his daughter, and it
was the same size as thatinfant.
So that really stung for him.
(26:01):
And he was just one week on thejob, NYPD.
So, you know, they say timeheals all wounds.
It doesn't.
It doesn't.
Some of that stuff stays onboard and and really bothers the
person.
And so we went back 20 years andwe resolved it.
And he he doesn't have anybreakthrough images about that
(26:24):
again.
And you know, no issues withlike dog, like because if he
heard like a dog with a similargrowl or saw from behind a
similar size dog, his mind wouldgo to that.
And it doesn't anymore becausewe resolved it with EMDR.
It's it's now filed in hiscortex.
And if he wants to think aboutit, he can.
So my concern became well, whatabout you know, all this money
(26:47):
is being dumped into officerwellness, right?
I'm gonna focus just on police.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
Well, you know what?
I if we're gonna do that, I I Ijust want to finish off a little
bit on EMDR.
Maybe for the if you want tostick around, we're gonna do it
another half hour.
I'd love to address that.
Okay, yes.
That's a half hour plusconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (27:03):
Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:04):
And just to finish on EMDR, so let's break a little
bit of the misconceptions.
You talked about paddles.
So you're telling me that we'redoing electroshock therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (27:15):
That's what people think initially, right?
And so, you know, they'reholding buzzers because you
know, EMDR is based onbilateral.
So whether you swing the eyesleft and right, you know, that's
bilateral stimulation, or youhave someone hold these buzzers
and it's buzzing left, right,left, right, left, right.
And then for my dispatchers whocan't stop hearing the screaming
(27:38):
from a particularly bad call,they're wearing a headset, kind
of like what Steve's wearingnow, and they're hearing a tone,
and they can hear me talk overthat tone.
It's just, and it's happeningleft, right, left, right, left,
right.
So the whole idea is bilateralstimulation.
It prompts the healing part ofthe brain that is stuck to get
(27:58):
moving again, so that it can betaken out of the mid-brain, the
fight or flight part of thebrain, and then be filed in a
bad call file, if you will, youknow.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
And I think that that's why, like for me, EMDR is
really helpful.
The other part that I want tofinish on, and you tell me your
thoughts about this too.
If you're someone's in a rushand needs to do EMDR in a rush,
what do you say?
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
No, I think it's clinically sound to do, you
still have to do a full intakewith the individual.
This isn't a party trick.
You could put someone into an abreaction and then they can't go
to work the next day.
So, no, I don't, uh it's notlike, oh yeah, let's have some
fun with this.
No, I still have to do a fullintake in order to, you know,
(28:45):
recognize what really is goinginto the picture.
And then if next session theywant to get started with the
MDR, then we can do that.
But you know, you have to makesure that the client is safe and
that they're ready to do thisvery deep work because it's a
laser-focused kind of work.
We're not dancing around thetopic, we are like zeroing in on
(29:07):
a target, and it's actuallycalled a target.
That's what Francine Shapirocalled it.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
So I think I want to finish on this, and I I'm the
same way.
I would even like we'll go tothe we'll talk about the
wellness stuff because I want totalk about the future of mental
wellness and how we can trainpeople.
But I what I do with people whocome in with EMDR and wanting
the the express version of it.
I'm like, well, I do believethat it takes time to trust your
(29:33):
therapist and go through some ofthis stuff.
So I like to build arelationship with you prior to
doing so.
And I think that that's how youcan get the comfort level.
So you said exactly the same,pretty much, but I want to put
it in different words becausefor me, what's key is you're
gonna be talking about hardshit.
So let's not pretend that you'regonna be like, Yeah, Steve, I
want to be fully open aboutthis.
Number two, rushing the processis what also tried to do with
(29:57):
the alcohol or burying it as faras you can in your brain, how
that worked out for you.
Right.
So I that's kind of my mybullshit answers to to people
who give me bullshit questions.
How about you stick around?
We're gonna talk a little bitabout that stuff at the academy
level.
Again, just for this one, Iwould love to talk about dump
the bucket, healing trauma inpolice with EMDR.
(30:19):
This is her book.
It's amazing.
If you want to know more aboutEMDR, this is the best way to
learn from it, for especiallyfor first responders.
But then we're gonna talk maybeon the other side, not only
about training and thetendencies to avoid therapy, but
also about how we can talk totherapists and maybe we can talk
more about helping the helpers.
So as we complete this episode,please join us on the next
(30:39):
episode because Stacy's stickingaround.
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:07):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome.
I'm so happy to have you here.
I'm hoping that you guyscontinue to like and subscribe
if you think about it and thenput in a review.
Those reviews are alwayshelpful.
But today I have someone that Imet through online and I read
her book, and it's called one ofher books.
I didn't read the other one yet,but I'm gonna be reading it,
calling Helping the Helpers.
But this one is Dump the Bucket.
(00:50):
Let's see, Killing Trauma andPolice with EMDR.
I'm covering her name, that'snot fair.
I read the book, You Know Me, INever Lie on my podcast.
You can see there's a littlecrease, there's little notes,
there's a whole nine thing.
But the good thing is Stacyalready sucked up to me.
She signed the first page.
So haha, I got a signed version.
But in all reality, it makingEMDR reachable for first
(01:12):
responders is so important.
And this book does it in droves.
So welcome, uh Dr.
Stacy Raymond.
This is the last time I'm gonnacall you, Doctor.
Welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
Thank you for having me.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
I think that, you know, I introduced a little bit
of both books already, but youknow, you're much more than two
books, I'm assuming.
Anyway, I hope.
But I really felt like I got totalk to you a few minutes before
the interview, and then, youknow, we've exchanged a few
times.
We seem very similar.
I think we have a karaoke nightthat we're gonna do sometimes.
Right.
How about you introduce yourselfto my audience who may not know
who you are?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Sure.
All right, so I'm Stacy Raymond.
I've been a clinicalpsychologist in private practice
for 27 years.
So I work in Ridgefield,Connecticut.
I am a peer support clinicalsupervisor for a local police
department.
I grew up raised by a Marine anda police officer.
(02:09):
He just turned 90 yesterday.
So he said, you know, Marinesdon't die.
They just go to hell andregroup.
That's what he told me.
So I'm gonna follow that.
So it it was it was difficult attimes, you know, to be raised by
someone with that background,especially because he he came
from his own issues even beforehe enlisted in the military.
(02:31):
But that was my firstunderstanding of what it was
like to be a police officer, atleast to live with one and to
see the work that he did and howit impacted him, and to live
with somebody withpost-traumatic stress that
never, never addressed itbecause, you know, he's 90 and
that age group, they don't talkabout it.
Like I've tried to talk to, I'vesaid, I've looked at, I've
(02:51):
talked to other veterans, combatvets, I've talked to police
officers that have been in somepretty bad calls.
And he says, no, we're nottalking about it.
And that's that.
So my first job was I was apsychologist in a women's
prison, FCI Danbury.
And I had to become weaponstrained, I had, and also in
(03:13):
self-defense.
And, you know, it was thepopulation, there were 900 women
behind the wall, 150 in thecamp.
And just learning that most ofthose women came from an abuse
background.
And then they picked the peoplethat they hung out with, either
gangs or prostitution or engagedin activities that were illegal,
(03:35):
and they ended up in prison.
So the effect of abuse on thehuman psyche and how the adult
unfolds from there, I found thatvery interesting.
But also very interesting wasthat the COs, the correctional
officers, they themselves had alot of issues.
You know, alcohol, you know,short fews, angry outbursts,
(03:58):
inappropriate relationships withthe inmates, some sneaking drugs
into the into the prison forsexual favors, you know, just a
side of officers that I justwent in very naive and then, you
know, realized that their stresslevel dealing with inmates,
walking into an institutionwhere you can actually feel it.
(04:21):
When you come through the Sallyport, like there's this
heaviness because there's 900people in there that are not
going to leave.
They will leave eventually.
We had a couple of lifers, butyou know, it's it's a very heavy
environment.
And then starting around 2015, Istarted getting more and more
trauma clients.
(04:41):
I started seeing firefighters,police, dispatchers, paramedics,
EMTs, just and veterans, combatveterans.
And I found, much to mysurprise, I was just so
comfortable with thispopulation.
I knew how to talk to them.
They knew how to relate to me,they would open up to me.
And so that became like a realintense interest of mine.
(05:05):
And then I became involved withthe local police department, and
then I became schism trained.
I do debriefs on a regular basisnow.
I give presentations locally onpost-traumatic stress, how to
identify it and what to do aboutit.
And I do that at policedepartments and fire
departments.
(05:25):
So that's me.
So you don't do much.
SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
Is that what you're saying?
unknown (05:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
And then I then there's my civilian clients who
they also have abuse histories,or they have their own traumas,
you know, perhaps a spouse thatdied by suicide, or they lost a
child in a car accident, or theyhave a terminal diagnosis.
You know, just it's all trauma.
It's just all all trauma that Ideal with.
(05:51):
And I use EMDR, eye movementdesensitization and reprocessing
therapy.
And I find that to be the mosteffective, quickest way to
alleviate the effects of trauma.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Yeah, and I mean, there's so many things, all
joking aside, that we can gotowards here.
Because I think that for me,like the the thing that's really
help guide my treatmentsometimes, because I am EMDR
trained just like yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
I'm not EMDR IA for my own personal reasons that I
shall share maybe offline here.
But I I am I've done I've donethat for about 12 years, follow
trainings, and it's such themost effective tool.
You mentioned SISM, the crisisintervention.
That's so important too.
(06:38):
Peer support, I can go down somany aisles because I think peer
support is one of the thingsthat is underused, but sometimes
it's underused because peoplewho are put in a peer support
place sometimes gab to their owndepartment, and that's the
biggest noise.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Right.
There has to be confidentiality.
But the other thing I'veobserved, and I've talked to
other clinicians who work withuh police and fire, sometimes
the people that need peersupport the most or need therapy
the most are peer supportersbecause they come from that
background where it's okay forme to be there for you, but I
can't ask for help.
I don't need me.
(07:14):
No, I don't need help, but I'llbe there for you.
So that's that's myunderstanding.
And not everybody on peersupport, it comes from you know,
a damaged uh history, but a lotof them do.
And then, yeah, if you can'ttrust your peer support team
because they might talk tocommand staff, well, that's a
problem.
That that that's not gonna work.
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
I want to just start off maybe about a little bit
about that, because to me, theACEs is just the most important
thing to do as a therapist,particularly working with first
responders.
Right.
I do like working with mycivilians, particularly uh
people with trauma.
And I'm pulling out the bookbecause literally one of my
favorite parts is exactly what Ishare with the first responder
world.
(07:56):
It's the research stuff that youtalked about.
ACES is adverse child events,just for everyone to know.
And it's only 10, 10 questions,they're pretty yes or no
answers, really easy to do.
Sorry if I do a little educationhere, but to me, that's the
greatest thing.
You know, I'm I'm pulling thebook because you know, I didn't
know what the numbers were forcivilians.
So thank you for pulling that inbecause I never looked those up.
SPEAKER_02 (08:18):
But you know, yeah, it's the average score is a one,
and that's based on 17,500surveys that were given to
civilians.
So the average score is a one.
So technically, even a two isthat's a hundred percent higher,
right?
That's that's that's considereda high score.
Two and up.
And then you want to comment oncops?
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
Yeah, well, that's what I was thinking is that you
just 2.6 is for the cops, andthat's a research from 2025.
Yeah, but then they have 3.5 and3.6, which is typically what I
hear here about a fourpersonally.
I've never done the exact math.
Yeah.
But I think that explaining whata four is to people and also
realizing that while it doesindicate, and again, I say the
(09:01):
whole world post-traumaticstress disorder.
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
I know that's a dirty word sometimes in Yeah, we
call it an injury because whenwhen we use the word disorder,
which is what's in the DS V,people feel like, oh, that's
something like attention deficitdisorder.
I'm gonna have that for the restof my life.
And I've I've sat with so manypeople, civilians and first
responders and veterans, thatyes, they show up with they meet
(09:27):
the criteria for the disorderaccording to the DSM V, but
they, you know, when we're done,they do not meet the criteria.
And so they do not have thatissue anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
But, you know, explaining a little bit about
what the like for me personally,well, I agree with you, I get
that.
I tell people, especially theyounger guys, I'm like, let's
keep it acute stress and thennever get to the post-traumatic
stress.
That's the important part.
SPEAKER_02 (09:52):
I like to address it in the acute stress, though,
technically, right?
I'm gonna get clinical here.
You can't call it acute stressafter a month.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
I know, but that's what I mean.
But trying to get people intowellness visits, talking to
people.
SPEAKER_02 (10:04):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
Stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02 (10:06):
Act on it when it is acute stress, right?
Because it's all the symptoms ofpost-traumatic stress, right?
Sleep disruption, you know, itcould be nightmares, it could be
intrusive images, it could be,you know, hyper startle, hyper
vigilance.
You know, having a short fusewith other people.
You don't have to check all ofthose, but if you check most of
(10:27):
them, and you just had an eventthat happened, right?
It could be a suicide in yourdepartment, it could be a child
death that you attended as afirst responder, whatever the
case may be.
Acting on it before it becomeslike locked into your nervous
system.
Act on it when it's acutestress, and you it will never be
(10:47):
called post-traumatic stress.
Right.
So that's what I think Steve'ssaying is right, Steve, like act
on it early.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
I think that that's why I talk about that because I
tell people like I I just had agentleman, I'm gonna just say
there were three adverse events,significant adverse events,
okay, less than 12 hours.
Oh wow.
And they contacted me within aweek.
And right, so he's workedintensely, and that was the
(11:16):
dumpster fire.
But guess what?
We put the dumpster fire out.
And yeah, does he think about itsometimes?
Sure, but it's not distressinganymore to him.
Correct.
And the younger guy, and he'slike, Why don't people do that?
I'm like, because you got to bea tough guy and let it really
fuck you up over a year.
SPEAKER_02 (11:32):
Well, here's the problem, right?
It's the stigma against gettinghelp.
I think younger people are muchmore open to talking about it,
addressing it.
Younger people will move pastacute trauma faster than older
people just because our brainsare just a little more
entrenched as we get older.
So young person coming in, morewilling to try, you know,
(11:53):
therapy, can move right pastthose three traumas that happen
within a 12-hour period.
And it's it feels like a miraclefor people when they when they
actually do that.
But if, you know, the olderschool people, they're gonna be
like, well, yeah, so my sleep isa little disrupted right now.
And yeah, I've had a fewnightmares and I have some
(12:13):
intrusive images or whatever.
But I'm just gonna tell youright now, their go-to is gonna
be alcohol.
And for the most part, and let'ssee how this goes.
But when you see how it goes, itthen takes root into your into
your brain, and it's harder todisentangle it from your
day-to-day experience, right?
(12:35):
So then it be it kind of showsits ugly head when you least
expect it.
You could, you know, two monthsafter the incident, you could be
having dinner, and then all of asudden you're thinking about the
dead child incident, and youdon't know why.
So a lot of them think thatthey're losing their mind.
I must be crazy.
And so I don't really want tolet anyone in on that because I
don't want to lose my my gun andmy badge, and I don't want to be
(12:58):
judged, and I don't want to bepassed over for promotion and
all that.
But if you look at it astactical resiliency, go and get
help so that you can stay sharpand you can then sleep better.
Then you don't have to drink asmuch in order to deal with the
symptoms.
And you, you know, that'stactical readiness.
(13:18):
It's not just making sure thatyou've got your, you know, your
vest on and your guns clean andloaded and everything, all your
gear is ready to go.
It's making sure that this isready to go.
So that's really the gist of ofmy book.
And like you going and and doingEMDR, which is not like CBT.
It's not, you know, cops don'thave to talk about the
(13:41):
nitty-gritty details of the deadbaby call.
I could ask them to go to theworst part of that, and that's
where we start, right there.
Go to the worst part, get animage in your head of the worst
part of that call.
You do not have to tell me thedetails about it.
Because a lot of them are afraidof getting emotional too, right?
This is alpha males, you know.
They're like, damn, last thing Iwant to do is cry.
SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
And I think that that's exactly what, you know,
one of my my my training withthe EMDR, it was with the MDR
IA.
SPEAKER_02 (14:13):
IA meaning just so people know, it's Mvria, which
is the InternationalAssociation.
So you can belong to it and youdon't have to belong to it, but
you can still be certified inEMDR.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
Thank you for I forget sometimes, so I do
appreciate that.
But what I've what I told peopleis like my first experience when
we had to do it ourselves, Iended up with someone who is not
like she didn't want to say whatit was.
SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
So we ended, I ended up doing my first ever
experience with EMDR was nottalking about what was going on
on, uh-huh, seeing her cry,doing the passes.
Again, I was brand new, so I wasstill like buy the book 15 to
20, blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
But what I tell people is that nothing really
scares that fright more thansomeone not talking on your
first ever one, and thensuddenly everyone's done, and
she's still going on.
So everyone turns to you withthis non-verbal person doing
that.
And I think that that's how Iexplain.
Like, you don't need to tell methe details.
No, you can have those thoughtsin your mind.
But when you say, Okay, then I'mgonna start.
(15:16):
I I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
It's really a private experience in their head
that the healing is happeningprivately, kind of in their
head, and then when you stopeither the eye movements or if
they're holding the tappers andit's buzzing left, I just do the
tappers because I find it lessdistracting.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
But what I was gonna say is that the other part too
is when you don't address thefront end, like we said, the
younger guys doing that a lotbetter nowadays than they have
your kid.
What happens is you're gonnaopen up whatever the the no
trigger here, trigger warningfor those who are upset.
You see the dead child, but thatmight open another channel of
other stuff that you saw.
It opens another channel, andnow suddenly you have six,
(15:52):
seven, eight, nine, twelve,twenty adverse events that you
got to kind of process.
They typically you don't do all20, but I'm not gonna go there
too too much detail.
SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Right, that's where it's the clinician's call, as
far as you know, do we write itdown and table it for later, or
is it really something thatneeds to go be gone after in
this session?
So that that comes withexperience as a clinician.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
So just a quick break, guys.
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I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
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Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and
leisure brand.
(16:35):
And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
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I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
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They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
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And if you go there right nowand you buy anything, including
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(16:59):
That's right, R D A 15, to get15% off on any products that you
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Now, right back to the episode.
Well, I think that that's whereI wanted to go with that.
(17:21):
That's exactly, you know, havinga having have this education, I
think there's two things typesof education.
I feel like I do a lot ofeducation with the people who
want E MDR.
SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
Who want, you know, as you mentioned in the book,
I'm not gonna make the memorydisappear.
I'm just gonna make it so thatit's in the rear view mirror and
you know it's there.
Right.
Number two.
I think the other part too isexplaining to clinicians in
particular.
I think sometimes the cliniciansare so like, you know, I do
believe in some of the structureof it, but sometimes you gotta
move a little bit of thestructure for XYZ reasons.
Correct.
(17:52):
I think that for me, there's twothings I want to talk about.
Is can you tell me more what'syour like why are like the
entrance of EMDR throughclinicians and first responders?
I feel a lot of resistance comesfrom the clinicians as well as
the first responders.
Can you explain a little bit ofwhat their resistance are, what
they go through?
I think you talk about it in thebook, but I'd love to hear what
you have to say about it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
So, who who are you asking about for resistance?
SPEAKER_01 (18:16):
Both on the police side and then sometimes the
clinicians.
I find that clinicians do notunderstand how to work with
first responders.
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
Correct.
And so, in my experience and andwhat and talking to clinicians
who are very experienced workingwith first responders, is the
the first responders want tojust get in and get out.
They want to do EMDR.
They don't need a whole lot ofpreparation.
Obviously, you know, you need tohave them understand what EMDR
(18:44):
is.
You they have to you have toestablish a calm place, you have
to make sure that they canhandle the, you know, the
emotions of of what's gonna comeup, right?
But then once they're ready,it's time, it's go time.
It's like, let's, and usually,you know, I let people pick what
they want to work on.
And so they're gonna, they'regonna pick something from their
(19:05):
work experience.
But if they are of the groupthat have come from adverse
childhood experiences,eventually we're gonna get to
that, you know, if they were hitas a kid and it resulted in
bruises or cuts, if they wereconstantly criticized that they
could do better, or if they feltlike no one really cared.
(19:26):
If you're gonna cry like that,go to your room, or being called
a sissy or a baby, you know, forcrying.
You know, stop crying or I'llgive you something to cry about,
right?
So that's emotional neglect.
Okay.
And so eventually we end up backat those traumas, and those are
childhood traumas.
But you don't have to worryabout police and fire,
(19:50):
especially being too fragile tojump into the first target
memory.
They're very hardy people, thesefirst responders, and even the,
you know, even the combat vets.
But what you have to obviouslyscreen for is alcohol abuse,
right?
Because there's not going to beany progress made.
(20:11):
If they're actively abusingalcohol, you know, they may feel
relief after doing an EMDRsession, but you lose that
ground between first session andsecond session if they're going
home and drinking.
Because those, you know,whatever neural pathways that
were broken and then rewired.
And what I mean by broken isthat, and I don't mean that in a
(20:31):
harsh way, but that that imagethat just keeps coming up, keeps
coming up, keeps coming up, thatstarts to go away during EMDR.
And then other ways of lookingat that trauma start to develop.
That development will go away ifthe person is going home and
drinking.
So the person has to bemodifying their alcohol intake
(20:55):
and/or they need to go to rehabfirst, and you know, if they're
that bad.
Because you EMDR is gonna juststir up more emotion than
they're gonna be able to handle,and they're gonna try to handle
it with alcohol.
So you have to make sure thatalcohol is not their go-to.
So as long as you've ruled outthat they're an active abusing
(21:17):
alcoholic or prescription meds,right?
Because there are people that Iwas gonna say that after you
were done.
SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
That's prescription meds are very much the other
problem.
SPEAKER_02 (21:26):
Xanax, you know, clonopin, you know, as long as
the person is following it asprescribed and they're not
abusing it, you can do EMDRwork.
But if there's any suspicionthat they're getting it on the
street or they're, you know,they have a family member that
gets it regularly and nowthey're using it and they're
using it to deal with theiremotional pain, that person's
(21:50):
not ready for EMDR.
So, but as clinicians, you don'thave to be afraid of doing EMDR
with with police and fire andveterans as long As we rule out
what I just said.
But I don't find that firstresponders or veterans are
afraid of doing it either.
They want to feel better.
(22:11):
And if you can do a session withthem where you bring their
distress level from here down tohere and it's palpable to them,
that is so gratifying for them.
And it's gratifying for theclinician because now they have
hope.
Now they have hope, like, wow,okay.
So I don't have to live with allof this haunting me for the rest
(22:32):
of my life and having crappysleep.
There's actually some hope thatI can feel better.
And I didn't even have to drinkor I didn't have to take a
Percocet.
I didn't, you know, I didn'thave to take more clonapin in
order to, in order to calm mynervous system.
So so that's really encouraging.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
But yeah, well, I would also say to you, there's a
few things that I want to add tothat is a lot of things that can
get you know as much as it's Idon't want to ever use these
words, but I'll use it on thepodcast, but I don't use it with
my clients.
You want to speed up theprocess, figure out what the
touchstone memory or theearliest memory is.
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
And typically adding taking care of those will take
care of a lot of other ones.
How I explain the process, yousay broken, I say a little
different.
I say, look, your trauma's stuckin your midbrain or your limbic
system right there.
So every time it kind of showsup similar, you go into fight or
flight mode because it's nowherein your cerebral cortex.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
I think EMDR does is that it creates those neural
pathways with to bring it to thelong term and your cerebral
cortex so that it's still there,it's never going to go away, but
it's no longer giving you thatfight or flight response.
So a little bit of what Iexplained.
So I think it's right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:41):
And I would do the same thing, but I was commenting
on resistance because that wasyour question.
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
So yeah, but I think the resist the resistance for me
from therapists is there's this,oh, can I can can I handle it?
And I'm like, what's differentworking with Leos or law
enforcement officers?
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
Yeah, I I don't, I don't that's not really
something that uh No, but itcomes up for me.
SPEAKER_01 (24:03):
And I hear that a lot from therapists.
How do you do it with them?
Same as I do it with civilians,right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:09):
I don't see the difference.
No and the the other part too isI I think that what happens a
lot with different people isthat they they start feeling
better, but I always remindthem, I said, what I would like
to do, uh you say you check forsubstance use, but for the first
particular first sessions, Ialso go like either we'll go at
the end of the day if you'regonna go home and take it easy,
(24:31):
or we do it at the beginning ofthe day if you come off shift
and you're gonna go to bed,because it can be exhausting at
the time.
SPEAKER_02 (24:37):
It can.
That's that's absolutely true.
It does usually wipe people out.
So I absolutely agree with that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:42):
I think it's really the neuropathways just being
formed that as much as I believein neuroplasticity, it takes
energy, it takes a lot of energythat you're not aware of.
SPEAKER_02 (24:51):
It's not a run, it's a it's really a lot of energy
that and and it could be someonewho says that it was my first
worst call.
That's what I want to addressbecause that's the one that
keeps coming up.
Well, now we're going back 10,15, 20 years.
And so I find the further backthat you go, the more tired the
individual is at the end of thesession.
That's what I find.
SPEAKER_01 (25:10):
So Yeah, I think that you have a you do use an
example of one of them.
I can't remember that it was along, like it was a memory from
years ago, and I can't rememberwho it was.
I know I read Right.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
It might have been Officer Elstey with the sounds
right the dog had a deceasedinfant in its mouth.
And that was, you know, 20 yearsprior.
And it was just as fresh forhim.
And the reason it stung so much,well, first off, it's an infant
in in a dog's mouth in theseven, what is he, 73rd
(25:41):
precinct, bad area, you know,very tough area.
There's the most homicides forNew York, at least at that time,
were happening in those in thoseprecincts around there.
And he had a baby girl at homehimself, his daughter, and it
was the same size as thatinfant.
So that really stung for him.
(26:01):
And he was just one week on thejob, NYPD.
So, you know, they say timeheals all wounds.
It doesn't.
It doesn't.
Some of that stuff stays onboard and and really bothers the
person.
And so we went back 20 years andwe resolved it.
And he he doesn't have anybreakthrough images about that
(26:24):
again.
And you know, no issues withlike dog, like because if he
heard like a dog with a similargrowl or saw from behind a
similar size dog, his mind wouldgo to that.
And it doesn't anymore becausewe resolved it with EMDR.
It's it's now filed in hiscortex.
And if he wants to think aboutit, he can.
So my concern became well, whatabout you know, all this money
(26:47):
is being dumped into officerwellness, right?
I'm gonna focus just on police.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
Well, you know what?
I if we're gonna do that, I I Ijust want to finish off a little
bit on EMDR.
Maybe for the if you want tostick around, we're gonna do it
another half hour.
I'd love to address that.
Okay, yes.
That's a half hour plusconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (27:03):
Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:04):
And just to finish on EMDR, so let's break a little
bit of the misconceptions.
You talked about paddles.
So you're telling me that we'redoing electroshock therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (27:15):
That's what people think initially, right?
And so, you know, they'reholding buzzers because you
know, EMDR is based onbilateral.
So whether you swing the eyesleft and right, you know, that's
bilateral stimulation, or youhave someone hold these buzzers
and it's buzzing left, right,left, right, left, right.
And then for my dispatchers whocan't stop hearing the screaming
(27:38):
from a particularly bad call,they're wearing a headset, kind
of like what Steve's wearingnow, and they're hearing a tone,
and they can hear me talk overthat tone.
It's just, and it's happeningleft, right, left, right, left,
right.
So the whole idea is bilateralstimulation.
It prompts the healing part ofthe brain that is stuck to get
(27:58):
moving again, so that it can betaken out of the mid-brain, the
fight or flight part of thebrain, and then be filed in a
bad call file, if you will, youknow.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
And I think that that's why, like for me, EMDR is
really helpful.
The other part that I want tofinish on, and you tell me your
thoughts about this too.
If you're someone's in a rushand needs to do EMDR in a rush,
what do you say?
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
No, I think it's clinically sound to do, you
still have to do a full intakewith the individual.
This isn't a party trick.
You could put someone into an abreaction and then they can't go
to work the next day.
So, no, I don't, uh it's notlike, oh yeah, let's have some
fun with this.
No, I still have to do a fullintake in order to, you know,
(28:45):
recognize what really is goinginto the picture.
And then if next session theywant to get started with the
MDR, then we can do that.
But you know, you have to makesure that the client is safe and
that they're ready to do thisvery deep work because it's a
laser-focused kind of work.
We're not dancing around thetopic, we are like zeroing in on
(29:07):
a target, and it's actuallycalled a target.
That's what Francine Shapirocalled it.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
So I think I want to finish on this, and I I'm the
same way.
I would even like we'll go tothe we'll talk about the
wellness stuff because I want totalk about the future of mental
wellness and how we can trainpeople.
But I what I do with people whocome in with EMDR and wanting
the the express version of it.
I'm like, well, I do believethat it takes time to trust your
(29:33):
therapist and go through some ofthis stuff.
So I like to build arelationship with you prior to
doing so.
And I think that that's how youcan get the comfort level.
So you said exactly the same,pretty much, but I want to put
it in different words becausefor me, what's key is you're
gonna be talking about hardshit.
So let's not pretend that you'regonna be like, Yeah, Steve, I
want to be fully open aboutthis.
Number two, rushing the processis what also tried to do with
(29:57):
the alcohol or burying it as faras you can in your brain, how
that worked out for you.
Right.
So I that's kind of my mybullshit answers to to people
who give me bullshit questions.
How about you stick around?
We're gonna talk a little bitabout that stuff at the academy
level.
Again, just for this one, Iwould love to talk about dump
the bucket, healing trauma inpolice with EMDR.
(30:19):
This is her book.
It's amazing.
If you want to know more aboutEMDR, this is the best way to
learn from it, for especiallyfor first responders.
But then we're gonna talk maybeon the other side, not only
about training and thetendencies to avoid therapy, but
also about how we can talk totherapists and maybe we can talk
more about helping the helpers.
So as we complete this episode,please join us on the next
(30:39):
episode because Stacy's stickingaround.
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:07):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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