From Frustration to Legacy: Ambition, Speaking for Pay & Making It Without Losing It with Jess Ekstrom

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Things in our life don't have finish lines, you know, building
a business, creating a culture, raising kids like.
All the. Kind of really good things in
life don't have finish lines. And so instead of like training
our brains to be like and complete, you know, where's my
medal? It's like what if contribution

(00:20):
was the goal instead of completion?
That was Jess Ekstrom, and this is Roar.
Hi everybody. This is Danielle Davies, the
host of Roar. Today.
I'm joined by Jess Ekstrom, social entrepreneur, best
selling author and founder of both Headbands of Hope and the

(00:41):
Mic Drop Workshop. Jess is someone who turns
frustration into momentum, whether that's building a
company that's reached children's hospitals around the
world or creating a platform that helps women step onto
stages, publish, publish their ideas, and get paid for sharing
their stories. And that last piece really
matters because advocacy doesn'tonly happen in policy rooms.

(01:02):
Sometimes it happens when women claim space, redefine authority,
and decide their voice belongs in the spotlight.
Through Mic Drop Workshop, Jess is working to shift who gets
heard in an industry where womenare still vastly
underrepresented as keynote speakers and thought leaders.
And with her upcoming book, Making It Without Losing It,
she's asking a deeper question. What does success look like when

(01:22):
ambition and peace are allowed to exist at the same time?
Jess, thanks so much for being here.
Welcome to ROAR. Oh my gosh, what a great intro.
Thank you, Danielle. I'm so excited to be here.
Stop at the intros and just be like, there they are.
Like, yeah, you know, No, no, you're.
Fantastic. Thank you.
I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited and I'm going to
jump right in because I know we've got limited time, even

(01:45):
though an hour shouldn't really be limited.
But you use the term inspirationfrom frustration.
What was the first frustration that really changed your
trajectory? The moment you realize you're
not just solving something for you, you're building something
that could help other women or girls too.
You know, I would say from a young age, I remember even just
like this camping trip that I took with my dad when I was a

(02:07):
kid and I'm really aging myself when I say I brought my Walkman,
like, you know, totally, totally.
And I was, I remember I was listening to the Backstreet
Boys. Still a Backstreet fan?
And I can't believe they're still touring, by the way.
Right. And my headphone cords kept
getting tangled in this knot in my Walkman.

(02:28):
And I was getting so frustrated.And I said, and my dad had
recently started his company. I was in middle school.
And so I was kind of watching him build something that he
believed in. And I was like, Dad, you know,
I'm going to invent something like you did.
I'm going to invent headphone cords that just roll up like a
slinky so they don't get tangledin a knot.

(02:48):
And I remember he was so serious, and he's a very goofy
guy. And he sat me down and he was
like, you know, that's already been invented.
But I really want you to keep thinking that way.
Like, that was a great job of being frustrated about something
and thinking, how could this be better?
And so I think that that was kind of this shift for me.

(03:11):
Not like I'm going to be an entrepreneur, but I believe in
myself enough to solve problems.So I think that that's why I'm
also so passionate about kids starting their ideas, whether
their only customer is their momor their neighbor or being a
lemonade stand kid. It's like you learn so much from
just taking responsibility of like, oh, I don't like the way

(03:36):
that, you know, we take attendance at school.
What if it was this way and that?
Like muscle memory of instead ofwhy me?
But how can I fix this? Started on that camping trip and
I think it's just kind of continued from there.
What great, like what excellent feedback from your dad because

(03:57):
so many, I hate to say, but I feel like so many parents, so
many people would just be like that's already invented and
stopped there without doing the next part, which is like how
clever of you. How entrepreneuristic of you,
how innovative of you to think this way and then to kind of
keep it going? Yeah.
And yeah, shout out to Dad if you're listening.

(04:19):
Right. And I have, you know, two kids
of my own now that, you know, they're one and three, you're
probably going to hear them on this podcast.
So they're both homesick from school.
So it is. Let's just hope we don't hear
any bodily fluids. It's just like Peppa Pig out
there. But I'm thinking a lot about
like how I was raised now that I, you know, have my own kids

(04:40):
and and like, you know, they my parents never forced like do
good do this, you know, start your business.
But they just like gently showedme like the exits I could take
on the highway, like, Oh yeah, if you want to start something,
here's go for it. Here's how you do it.
But it was never and and of. Course they like started their

(05:03):
own business and so I got to watch them but.
You know it's so. Hard, by the way, sorry.
So they were, yeah. They were in the health and
fitness industry. And they created, like, an
e-mail marketing thing where gyms send out emails based on
how often they came to the gym. And this was in the 90s.
So this was like a huge, huge yeah, like, very.

(05:27):
And they're both. I'm like, I laugh.
I'm like, they can't even like, open up a Word document, yet
they created this tech company. I'm like, how did you guys do
this? It just goes to show you don't
have to be an expert to, you know, be an entrepreneur.
But yeah, I'm thinking a lot about that with my kids of like
how I guide them instead of pushthem because I think that's what
they did for me. I love that.

(05:49):
And it's funny because now I'm going off on a tangent, but I do
my daughter 17 and my son's 20 and he's always known what he
wanted to do and that's been what he wants to do.
But my daughter's much more likecreative and not that he's not,
he's just been goal driven from the beginning and she's like a
little more aimless and that's OK.
She's super creative. But in terms of like saying

(06:09):
these are the exit ramps, I'll say these are the exit ramps.
And she just jokes like she'll be like everything with you.
Like she could say I like this candied ginger, whatever it is,
I'll be like, you know, that could be abyss yes, and she now
it's like she's like, stop, stopsaying I know everything can be.
So it's it's such a your dad must have done it in just the
right way where it wasn't pushing it, but just open the

(06:33):
door. Tell you Danielle, my sister and
I are the same as what you're how you're explaining your kids.
But we actually did have kind ofa freaky Friday where I was kind
of aimless. She was very goal driven and
then. I don't know, we collided like
in college and we, I became verygoal driven and she was just
like. The world is my oyster and I

(06:57):
literally was having this conversation this morning
because she lives in California.She's like a nature guide.
I mean she works for a Land Trust.
She is like one with the earth and she sends, we use this app
called Marco Polo where she sends videos.
I love it and so she'll send videos to my kids that they can

(07:17):
watch and she sends. These videos of like.
A plant in the oh, Ellie Jack, look at this flower.
What are you? What colors do you see?
And I'm like Heather, you could be Miss Rachel for outdoors.
Like you could have a YouTube channel that is like outdoor
kids stuff. We could monetize it, like could

(07:39):
be sponsored by REI, like here we go.
And she's like, Jess, I am just sending videos to my niece and
nephew. Like, I don't want to do this.
And even as an employer, you know, I'm right now, it's the
beginning of the year. I know this is going to come out
later, but I'm having calls witheveryone on my team just kind of

(08:00):
trying to understand where they want to go from their role.
And some people are like, I justreally like where I am.
I don't want to be the director.Like I don't want to do this.
You know, I'm really good where I'm at.
And so I think sometimes someonewho is so addicted to ambition,

(08:22):
which is again a part of my book, it's hard for me to not be
like a pusher of ambition to other people.
And if anything, I feel like I can learn from my sister and
some of these other people who are like, I'm really enjoying
the spot right now. Why do?
Why would I want to mess with the good vibes, if you know what

(08:42):
I mean? Yes, yeah, it is a foreign
concepts to me as well just because you're like I don't
know, I've always juggled multiple things and you're
that's kind of what keeps me going.
I don't know what I would do if I resist not but that's also my
personality and not everybody else's.
So, but, but also what you do, by the way, like the fact that

(09:04):
both of the kind of the, the ways that you've chosen to be an
entrepreneur have actually been helping people.
So that's another part. So when I started war, part of
it was because, you know, I havebeen in, I've worked in politics
and I've worked in as a journalist.
And a lot of times when people are like, get involved, do
something they often think are like, well, I can't run for
office. Like I don't want to run for

(09:24):
office. And I know that's not what I
want to do, but advocacy for women and girls doesn't have to
look like running for office or holding up a sign.
And I think that your work showsit can be building platforms,
right in doors shifting, who gets heard.
Did you ever start seeing, you know, voice invisibility as a
form of advocacy? It is such a timely question

(09:47):
because I have been, you know, there's a lot going on in the
world right now and so much. And so, of course, you ask
yourself, 30 years from now, when we look back on this time
or 10 years or five years, what do I want to tell my kids that I
did? You know, and I think about that

(10:10):
question every day. And I will also tell you that
I'm not the kind of person who Isaw this video recently that was
like, everyone protests differently.
Sometimes people protest throughmaking art.
Sometimes people protest by where they shop, sometimes
people protest by like holding the signs and marching in the

(10:32):
streets. And sometimes the protests that
are so visible, like the holdingthe signs or maybe being, you
know, is feels like it's the only way because it's so
visible. And so I've been really kind of
battling. I'm like, I just, I'm not at,
you know, holding the signs right now, but I truly believe

(10:53):
that the businesses and the systems that I'm putting in
place are there for the betterment of women, which is my
form of advocacy. But I think I had to have a
little bit of a gut. Check with myself of like, am,
you know, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, am I feeling
like I, you know, left it all inthe field for what I believe in.

(11:17):
And my answer right now is yes. But it's hard because there's so
many things that you feel like you could be doing or get swept
up in or. And I think that right now I'm
like, OK, I like how I've built my businesses around helping,

(11:37):
even if it's maybe a form of protest that looks different.
Does that resonate with you? 100% And I'm glad you see it for
yourself too, because as somebody who's been on the
receiving end of what you do andwe'll talk about that later,
it's, I do see it as a form of advocacy myself.
So I don't think it's, I don't think it's going on deaf ears.

(12:00):
I mean, obviously you have to, you know, that's something you
have to look at yourself. And like you said, in 10 years,
20 years, am I going to look back and feel like I, I'm, I
guess met this moment? But I think you are.
And it's again, and I think it'sreally important that we all
start to see that it doesn't look the same for everybody.
And how we advocate doesn't doesn't look the same that
you're not not doing something, you're doing another thing.

(12:21):
And I think that's just important as important.
In fact, one of the things I wanted to talk about too is you,
you tell the story you at least did in one of your courses that
I took women report being the only woman on the panel or being
underpaid for their keynote work.
But you pulled back the curtain and you actually asked somebody
why you why they picked you, which I think is a really brave

(12:45):
question. I know I was young and naive.
Yeah, that was smart of you, butwhat surprised you most when you
started pulling back the curtainon this?
So it was a question I would askwhen an event had already booked
me to speak. And I always kind of have like
a, in an onboarding call of OK time, date place, what's the

(13:08):
theme? And I always ask like, oh, is
there something about me there? Was there something that you
read on my website or a topic ora story that you wanted to make
sure that I hit? And it was this one particular
call and I just asked it. And, you know, some people were
like, oh, we really like, you know, when you talk about hope
or resilience And this guy said,I'm just going to be honest with

(13:32):
you. And I was like, please, he goes,
I have no idea who you are. And I was like, I get it.
You know, I'm not famous. He goes, all I know is that we
needed a woman. And you were just like the first
one that that popped up. And that was when I was like,
oh, there is something happeninghere where there is this demand

(13:55):
for women speakers on this stage.
And it's really it's and it was so frustrating to me because,
and it's still so frustrating tome, there are so many events
that come to us. We're now kind of becoming the
go to place for events to find women speakers.
So we train them and people can find them, but they're like,
well, we just can't find any. And I'm like, they're there.

(14:17):
They're we're all here. But maybe we're just not being
as forthcoming or as loud or which is also on us.
Like we need to put ourselves out there.
But it is so. Frustrating to me the amount of
women that I see second guessingtheir place on a stage and the
amount of men that I see that are just like of course I

(14:39):
deserve to be here and of courseI deserve to get paid $50,000 to
do this. Quick pause, because if you're
listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind
of person I write for. I send out a Substack newsletter
where I go a little deeper, morepersonal stories.
Behind the scenes thoughts and. Honestly, some of the things we
don't always say out loud here. If you want to stay connected

(15:00):
between episodes, you can find it at Roar with
danielledavies.substack.com. I'd love to have you there.
And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast.
You're actually reminding me years ago, again, this is
political, but I talked to Senator Tammy Duckworth and she
maybe doesn't remember this, butwe were talking about the fact
that like she knows men, you know, or she's come across men

(15:23):
who basically, you know, they grow up and they look in the
mirror and they're like, I thinkI'd be a really good
congressman, you know, like, like, you know, and then like,
but like a lot of times, women, how they come to it.
And this is generalizing. Obviously this is not every man
and. Every of course.
But like a lot of times women, it's like you come to it because
you're like frustrated that yourkids are waiting outside by from

(15:44):
the butt like for the bus. And so you're talking about the
bus routes and, you know, like even Senator Patty Murray, she
in Washington, that's how she started.
She was basically like somebody actually said, you know, you're
just a mom in tennis shoes. But it starts as just this
moment where you're like, you'refixing something.

(16:04):
You don't necessarily see yourself as the one compelling
$50,000 on a stage, but you actually help women not just
tell, but also sell their. Story.
Yeah, so. What do you think shifts when a
woman stops seeing her story as personal and start seeing it as
like professional capital? He's like, yeah, that's the
thing. I think we we all sit around and
we talk and we have stories. But right, you see that.

(16:26):
What do you see happening to a woman when she starts to realize
the stories might have? Monetary value, yeah.
And I think that that's such a we're, you know, my sort of mic
drop in like 2018 and like, I want to this year, we've hired a
lot, you know, more team members, which is amazing.
But I'm like, this isn't just mein my basement anymore.

(16:47):
I really want to get clear on like our values and our what we
stand for. And there's a lot of public
speaking, storytelling, soft skills, which is great.
But like, we are very clear on speaking for pay.
And because that's where I know that I've see that's changed my

(17:08):
life a ton and something I didn't know existed and where I
see the most gap. But it goes back to, I want to
get to speaking for pay. But something that you said
around like being able to see yourself there.
I mean, it just goes back to when we were a kid and like
learning the presidents and looking at the wall.
And I remember like my kindergarten classroom had all

(17:31):
the presidents faces. And so you just subconsciously
start to assume, well, I don't look like that.
So that can't be me. And so like with public speaking
and anytime there's these like positions of power or the
ability to hold a microphone, ofcourse the pay you deserve to
get paid. But it's also just this systemic

(17:54):
ripple effect of being able to see people like them on stage.
I was, we had our one of the programs we do is called Mic
Drop Academy and we had our kickoff call last night where we
do a cohort of thirty women and they're all women who are
already speaking in some capacity and looking to make it

(18:14):
maybe more their full time job. And this woman was like, I was
told that I was, she spoke at this healthcare conference that
they were, she was the first Asian woman that they've ever
had speak. And it's just crazy that we're
in 2026 and there's still like firsts.
I spoke at a conference in December that said they've been
doing this conference for 15 years and I was the first woman.

(18:38):
Oh, and Danielle, I know I see your face right now.
It happens all the time. Isn't that so all the?
Time. As women, you know, you grow up
and you're like, yeah, of course.
I just assumed it was a given. Like, of course there would be a
female president, of course, there.
And now I'm like 51. I'm like, is there going to be a
female president? Yes.
In my lifetime? Am I going to get to see this?

(18:58):
It's like it. It's just crazy that you're
telling me this happened in December and you've been a
professional for how long? And the I say funny with air
quotes, anyone who's listening, the funny part is, is that they
presented that information to meas such a source of pride.
Like you're our first female speaker.
I'm like, that is not a point ofpride if you've been doing this

(19:22):
conference for 15 years. So yeah, all of that to say,
yes, the pay, which I'm happy tokind of get into what that looks
like as a as a speaker. But I think more than anything,
the representation of seeing a woman hold a microphone in front
of a room full of people, whether that's three people or

(19:45):
3000 deeply matters right now. And so I, I have a lot of guilt
around leaving my house, you know, with A1 and a three-year
old. But I really am trying to show
my kids what I'm doing. And, you know, my kids are
obsessed with Miss Rachel. And so I'm like, you know how
Miss Rachel like teaches? You know, language like I'm

(20:06):
going up there and teaching adults like how to, you know,
care about the world and care about their job.
And this is me teaching. And I spoke in Orlando a couple
of months ago and brought my daughter to to watch me.
And so I think that I want my kids to see me trying and even

(20:27):
if I'm failing, which I do quitea bit, but that matters to me,
that they see their mom like taking big swings.
Well, because that's also, you know, that's, that's also
advocacy, right? Like you want the world to be
better. It's going to start in your
house. You want the best for your own
kids, obviously, and for them tolearn.

(20:48):
And, and I have to say as like somebody who felt that way and
continues to feel that way. My kids are now 20 and 17 and
like every, you know, sometimes you're my husband's like, do
they listen to a thing what you say?
Like, must they learn everythingthe hard way?
But I'll hear them having conversations with their friends
where it's like I can hear my words coming back out of their
mouths almost verbatim like, andI'm like, they are getting it.

(21:11):
They're getting it and it and itis important.
You know, I think these things are important.
But also like you said, seeing awoman from other women, seeing a
woman speaker, it is empowering for us, but it also also shows
that it's possible. Why do you think this economic
empowerment is such a important part of amplifying women's
voices? Because you're not just saying

(21:32):
you can go get on a stage. You're actually saying you can
get paid for it. And I'm just going to say right
now what we already talked about.
So people listening, I took thisfree course that Jess offers,
which I highly recommend and it will be in the show notes and
it's awesome. And somebody sent it to me in
like every free course you've ever taken, you anticipate that
there might be a little bit of value, but really it's going to

(21:55):
be a sales for, right? It's a it's a lead magnet and
that's great. I mean, they have their value,
but no, no, it was not like thatat all.
It was like its own thing. It was the only thing, actually.
I have taken other courses from Jess, but not from this.
Just. I just took this.
I did exactly what she said. It was like a hat.

(22:15):
How long is it? Half an hour, 40.
Yeah. Yeah, not long.
I did exactly what she said. This is like within an hour.
I applied to five speaking gigs,which I really was doing for
practice. I wasn't even doing them because
I, I didn't think it was going to work that fast and I was not
really prepared. I should probably not be saying
this out loud, but the point is,well, I mean, the people who

(22:38):
booked me might not love it, butyeah, yeah, yeah, that's too
late. Anyway, the contract is signed.
That's. What the editing's for, yeah.
Exactly. And, and basically I, I ended up
like almost immediately with a peed speaking gig that's coming
up. And of course, I'm equal parts
excited and terrified, but that's how effective and also

(22:59):
how much the need is. And that just shows.
And, and it was like very tactical, very, very practical
tactical. I made like my speaking sheet.
I did everything that she showedthat you showed in this video.
I literally just listened to word for word.
I saw, I followed the same hashtags you said.
I mean, there was nothing that Idid that was independent of what

(23:22):
you suggested. There was no like, well, she
said this, but I took it up and not there was no taking it up at
lunch. I did exactly that.
And the speaking gig that I bought, that I booked was not
like for $100 or $200. It was a $2500 speaking gig in
another state. I talked for one hour anyway.
You're going to crush it. Yeah, yeah.

(23:44):
And and. Let me also say, Danielle, that
I appreciate the credit you're giving me, but there are so many
people that take a training and then put it on their like mental
bookshelf and never do anything about it.
So the fact that you not only took it but applied it is like,
kudos to you. And I'll tell you something

(24:05):
funny. As you were talking, it reminded
me of this, you know, I started obviously mic drop workshop
because I was really tired of all male pale and stale lineups,
as we like to say. And so I started doing these
like free seminars. And then of course, we have a
paid training. And I had hired this like

(24:26):
consultant or something years ago just to see like what could
we be doing to like get to the next level?
And they told me, oh, you're delivering too much information,
like on the upfront, like on thefree side, you need to like,
what's the word the kids say? Gatekeep, you know, and say, you

(24:47):
know, that's in the paid thing. And I was like, no, that doesn't
align with my mission. I want someone to be able to
like be able to start this and land something that's accessible
to everyone. Because I think that's also the
problem we have with people holding microphones is that

(25:09):
they're already in the positionsof power that allow that that
are they're already in the room and so.
Like my goal is to help people who might not already have those
invites get the invites. And if so, if it was totally
inaccessible, then I wouldn't befulfilling that.
And but it was just so funny to me because that advice was like,

(25:32):
you know, we kind of, I kind of deliver too much good stuff and
too many kind of hacks for free.And I was like, I'd rather over
deliver than not. And I think that that's kind of
been one of the successes of MicDrop Workshop and how we've been
able to grow so much over the past few years is the trust I'm

(25:54):
able to build on the front end. And I always tell people, like,
whenever we get to the point that they can decide if they
want to like come into a paid program or not, I'm like, you
can do this with or without me, like.
But if you. Want to get there like quicker
with the community, with more resources and join us but don't?
Let. This be like do I do this or do

(26:14):
I not do it with or without me? It's just whichever path you
want to take. And so when you were saying
that, like, it just was making me think of that advice I got
that one time that I was over delivering and I was like, I
think I'm OK with that. I'm good with over delivering,
yeah. And honestly, I mean, it's
because then you've got that, then you've got word of mouth
and there's really just nothing better.

(26:35):
I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I've been like, like,
I mean, I'm like sending it to people I know I'm like from Matt
because OK, let me back up. I've spoken at different things
for different reasons, whether politically or I was like class
president when I was in high school.
I mean, there's people who end up speaking about things and
there's people who don't. So years ago, many, many years

(26:55):
ago, I think I was in a mom 2 point O conference and one of
the pull out sessions was about the fact that you can get paid
to speak. And the people were really
helpful and wonderful. In fact, one of them who isn't
she? She's a teacher and she writes
about teaching. And so sometimes she speaks
about what she writes about. Obviously, this is how a lot of
times speakers become speakers, right?

(27:15):
They're talking about their areaof expertise.
And she was really helpful and 4th rate and she was like,
listen, you can actually get paid for those people.
Like the women in the room are all like, get out.
Yeah, yeah. She's.
That's how I. Felt yeah she was like she met a
woman and and she's like I'm here speaking for free because
this is the kind of event that is perfect like yeah it really

(27:41):
aligned with her it was local for her it was meaningful Fine.
That's fine. That's its own issue, whether or
not you want to do that or not. But she said that she knew
another author that was like sitting down a booth from her at
at like an author's convention. And that author was like, and
she's like, I never heard of her.
It was like a self published book.
It, you know, this is back in the times when self published

(28:02):
books weren't maybe what they are now.
And she said the woman was like,I don't speak anywhere for less
than $10,000. And this woman was like, like.
Yeah. But that woman, she's like, she
was totally booked like. It, it is the $10,000 one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was booked.
And, and so that was very eye opening hearing that, but there

(28:24):
was no, and of course there was no one there who was doing what
you're doing right. There was no guy.
So I knew it was possible, but Ihad absolutely no idea how to
make that a thing. You know what I mean?
Like I didn't know what the steps were from my knowledge to
making it happen. But I had talked about it with
different friends of mine over the years who are very either

(28:46):
dynamic or have a great story totell.
And I'm like, you should, you should be a speaker.
And you know, they're like what?I'm like, I don't know.
But apparently people have this.I'm like, I don't.
Apparently people do this, yes. And So what was it for you,
Danielle, like after you took the training?
Like what was the light bulb? For you was it?
Topic was it oh this is accessible to me and what were

(29:10):
some of the steps you. Talked about it was.
The accessibility and it was thefact that so for me who had
thought about it in the past andand I already kind of was like
I, I could do this, I mean with medication.
Yes, I want to talk about that too.
I'm kind of fascinated by beta. So I'm an anxious person and the

(29:30):
thought of it is making me, yeah, high inside.
I. Mean my Lexapro is on OverDrive
right now. So yeah.
OK, so, so I'm, I'm definitely anxious about it, but the the
practical steps for this is whatyou do.
This is what you look for, this is who you approach.
Yeah, that the the I mean, and you actually tell people this

(29:53):
for free, which makes which is why I was saying now I've told
every single one of those peopleI've like revisited and I'm
like, this is the woman who willtell you her to go take the
class. Like I'm like you, but because
you're because you built the trust.
So I you know, I know from I know it works because I did it
myself. Like I did exactly what you said

(30:14):
and it worked. And about the medication I did.
Tell me where? Where?
Like when you get nervous, where, what's the thought
process that's going through your head?
Where are you nervous? I.
Get nervous. And then I get, I get to the .0.
Whoa. This is a whole.
I mean, we should have a psychotherapist on here too.

(30:37):
When I get anxious, I get anxious about the fact that I'm
getting anxious. So I'll be like, it's happening,
it's happening. It's.
Coming over me, Yes, I know. You can feel your body starts to
like warm up in these uncomfortable ways.
And then I'm like, I'll, you know, I can see my hand the
older I get, like I can see my fingers start to shake.
Like I'll be like, oh, you know,and, and it's internal.

(31:00):
So all I'm thinking about is thefact that I'm anxious and so I'm
not going to be able to be my best.
And then it just keeps building.So I did obviously, you know,
everything's listening. As soon as I took this, I
started seeing things that were popping up on different social
media feeds. You can take beta blockers to be
a speaker. So I spoke to my doctor about it

(31:22):
and he was like, yes, he's like,or you could just practice And
I'm like, I'll take the beta blocker.
Yeah, who has time for that? Yeah, it's like I'll take the
beta blocker. Even drugs, yeah.
Because he's. Because he was like, well, it's
not, you know, all the time. I'm like, I don't want to take
it all. Do you think I'm speaking in my
sleep? Like I just want to do this.
I think anything that allows youto like just do it is great, but

(31:46):
can I give you some tips? Please.
OK, so a couple things like whenI see people get nervous around
speaking that and this is like. I'm getting nervous just as
you're talking about it. It's starting to happen.
This and actually, so I gave my Ted talk last year and it was

(32:07):
such a good thing for me becauseI was so petrified.
It was such a different kind of speaking environment than going
up and giving a keynote, giving this like very heightened 8
minute talk that's kind of more scripted.
Oh, thank you. But it was, it really allowed me
to get back into the shoes of like doing this for the first
time. And so I could kind of go

(32:27):
through the process of what to do when you're nervous.
The first thing I'll tell you what the, for anyone listening,
the Ted talk was about like thisshift that you can take when
you're feeling nervous. And I call it the difference
between being a spotlight speaker and a lighthouse
speaker. A spotlight speaker comes up on

(32:49):
stage and is like, what is everyone thinking?
How do I look? How do I sound?
Can they see my pit stains? Like, you know, can they see my
finger shaking? I want to be impressive.
And it's giving all the control to the audience.
And you're saying, what does everyone think of me?
The spotlight is on you. But a lighthouse shifts the
light from themselves to the audience.

(33:09):
And so instead of saying, what does everyone think of me?
It's what does everyone need of me?
Like, where are they at? How can I help?
And so it's just this, I literally imagine, and this
sounds very like Hakuna Matata, but like when I'm backstage, I
literally imagine the light liketaking it off myself and putting
it on the audience. And it's this visualization I

(33:30):
do. It's like, what did they have
for lunch? Today.
What is their fear like? Do they have, you know, kids at
home? Like what?
And anytime I speak, that's why I always like to have the call
before because I'm like, tell mewhat keeps your people up at
night? Even if I'm not, I'm not a
magician. I might not be able to solve it.

(33:50):
At least I have context going into the room that these are
humans. There may be worried about
layoffs. Maybe they got a new CEO,
whatever it might be. So that first shift is like just
where. What are you making this mean?
Are you making it mean somethingabout yourself?
If so, you're going to be petrified.
Or is it about the audience? The second thing that I like to

(34:13):
suggest if you get nervous is I call it your start button when
you speak and it's that first line, that first story you're
going to tell on stage. It is, it can be like if you're
going out there. With a super.

(34:33):
Vulnerable story I would be I don't know if you can like curse
on this show, can we? OK, I would be like shitting my
pants if I was about to go out there and say about like a time
that, you know, my grandpa died or like something that was super
vulnerable because you're literally just like going down

(34:55):
the black diamond without any kind of emotional warm up for
yourself, for the audience. And so instead I start with a
story that is maybe funny, mayberelatable.
I think a childhood story is always great.
I talk about the time where. Ice cream.
The ice cream, Yeah. For my Ted talk, I talked about
the ice cream truck in my keynote.

(35:17):
Now I talk about a time where I thought I was going to get, you
know, M&M's on this Outward Bound trip, and I didn't.
And it's like the start button is an ice.
Breaker for the audience. It gets them relaxed, but truly
it's an ice breaker for you. Because once you can deliver
like your first 30 seconds, 2 minutes on stage, I guarantee

(35:42):
it's going to, you're going to feel your shoulders come down,
you're going to get a couple laughs or head nods from the
audience and your whole being onstage is going to change.
But if that first story super heightened, very vulnerable one
that you're not super comfortable telling, it's just
going to amplify those nerves. So I would start thinking about
what's your start button? What's like that story that is

(36:02):
an ice breaker for the audience and for you because it's going
to make it. It's just like stretching before
you go out there. It's just like getting out all
your kinks. And there's a lot of physical
stuff you could do too. Good.
Oh good, good. So good.
Because even as you're saying it, I'm calming down.
Like, yeah, I should just bring you with me everywhere I go.

(36:24):
I, I just, I'm like, yes. And even when you said, you know
when you said the shift from thespotlight or yeah, from the
spotlight to the lighthouse, right?
Yeah. Right.
That's when you say it. I'm like, OK, like theoretically
I get it. But when you said like, what is
keeping them up at night? What did they eat for lunch?

(36:45):
Then you're like, oh, like it's really.
These are humans. Yes.
And yes, that works. This works.
And and you? Also, when you think about the
talks that you. Loved like I didn't what be like
wow, that person was perfect or I didn't say wow, that person
didn't use a filler word. I don't know who made the

(37:06):
villain, but it's who cares? Use.
It's usually wow, they were so real, they turned it back on
something that I could apply. They told a story.
And I think there's this like misconception with speaking that
being relatable makes you unreliable.

(37:27):
And I think that that is such a myth that we need to debunk.
If anything, like we have this ChatGPT perfection now of like
exactly what to say. And here's the research that it
makes us need to be more human. Like that's our competitive edge
as speakers is being relatable and the stories that we tell.
So I would say like just almost like this is probably not the

(37:52):
advice a speaking coach should say, but like lower the bar for
yourself. Like you don't need to go out
there and be a Mel Robbins or whoever.
Don't compare your like chapter 1 to their chapter 20 and
recognize that just like people need real relatable and

(38:13):
applicable. And like, that's how you can be
a great speaker, not by being perfect.
OK, real quick, if you're listening and thinking more
women should be hearing conversations like this, the
best way to support the show is just to follow or subscribe
wherever you are. It really does help it reach
more people. Thanks so much.
OK, back to the show. You are very good.

(38:33):
You are very good and I really appreciate it.
But I want to also point out to people who are listening who
maybe don't know your whole thing, like the mic drop
workshop is awesome and I am aspiring to do it and I think
it's going to be great. And I love what you do, but
that's not all you do. You also have written book.
So a lot of times people who speak who you know, I'm talking

(38:56):
to the audience here because youalready know, there's a lot of
times people who speak, speak onan area that they've already
written about, right. So then maybe they're an
educator. That was an example I used
before and they speak about education or maybe they've run
for office. So they talk about public office
or the economy or whatever theirarea of expertise is.
They go and speak yours. What you do is sort of, I feel
like you almost train women to do the opposite.

(39:17):
It's not necessarily their of expertise.
It's it's being human as the area of expertise and then
backtracking it. And that's kind of what you
almost seem to do in your books.You're not in your books.
They're not books about how to be a public speaker, right?
It's not what you've got. So you've got a book.
They probably should be. That would be a Better Business
strategy. But I I get too bored.

(39:37):
I'm like, yeah, I want to write about something that.
Right, but I I love that about you though, and I because I feel
like it's again offering something honest and so much
more relatable. And your book, you've got a book
coming out called Making it without Losing it, right, which
is awesome. And it seems like it, of course,
I haven't read it. It's not out yet, but it seems
like it's a response to hustle culture.

(39:58):
Was there a mean moment when yourealize like success isn't
sustainable the way it's kind ofbeing sold to us?
And I even just what you said, you know.
When you compare yourself to your first talk versus like Mel
Robbins 400, like that's what wedo as humans and women.
I'm sure men do it too. Like we look at the end goal and

(40:20):
we're like, Oh my God, I could never get that.
They didn't start there, right? So can you talk about what
happened to inspire you to even start this book?
I think, and this goes back to the beginning of our
conversation, I felt like, you know, I started my first company
when I was in college. I was like, I felt like I was
just trying to fill a leaky. Bucket that like I just.

(40:46):
Can dump more water in here and it's going to be full and one
day I'm going to feel it and it's like it just wasn't
happening and I get you know, into this in the book, but I
there was a I'll just say it here, but my uncle's Bernie
Madoff. And so we had like a very kind
of traumatic, scandalous chapterof our lives.

(41:10):
Yes. And.
Really. Yes, and.
And so when I talked about that freaky Friday with my sister, I
feel that was like kind of the catalyst where I was like, I'm
going to go after this, just make something of myself.
And and so I felt like it activated this hustle that I
didn't know how to gauge appropriately.

(41:33):
And I'm like, I'm just going to do something so big and so great
that it's going to cover up everything that ever bad
happened. You know, in in my family.
I'm very much, you know, paraphrasing, but.
And also really super small goalright there.
Yeah, like, of course, I'm just going to be able to retire my
parents that lost all their money and I'm just going to, you

(41:54):
know, do this all the at the ageof, you know, 20, like no
problems. And I.
And so I think that I just realized one day that I was
constantly trading like productivity for peace.
Yet I was seeing people like, I don't know, like Serena Williams

(42:14):
didn't need another Grand Slam yet.
She just loved playing tennis. Or, you know, these people who
are making it like Oprah was a billionaire before she started
like OWN network. She didn't need to start another
network. She was good.
But it's just these people who truly loved building and
creating. And so they were coming at their
goals from a place of inspiration instead of anxiety.

(42:38):
And that was really interesting to me.
And so I started to kind of go on this like personal journey
that I'm sharing this book of like, how can I continue to
build and do things that I'm excited about without feeling
like I'm behind, without feelinglike I'm, you know, trading
productivity for peace or usually when we have a goal, the

(43:01):
feeling is I'm not there yet instead of, Oh, this is an
exciting, you know, path. It's like I should be.
I this person is. And so this whole journey of
making it without losing it is like I'm not the kind of person
that wants to just like go on a silent meditation retreat and
just never do anything like again.

(43:22):
I enjoy and I did, I tried that.I write about it in the book,
but I like building things. I like being ambitious, but I
want to feel sane and inspired at the same time.
So that's what this book is about.
It's not coming from a place of an expert.
It's coming from a place of like.
Here's what I discovered while Iwas doing this.

(43:45):
Not to give anything away, but is it like for example, with the
speaking, you just gave me actual like, again, tangible
things I can do with the start button and like all that stuff?
Is it? Do you offer those same kind of
strategy tips? Yeah, At the end of each
chapter, we have a section called Take it or leave it, and

(44:05):
it's something to try, somethingto leave.
And then I think there's like something to say.
And it's just like, if you were going to take one thing away
from this, like here's somethingto try leave and say.
Because I also, I'm going to be totally honest and realize like
I, my brain has been personally victimized by like TikTok
scrolling Chachi BT. And so I'm like, if I'm not

(44:28):
someone who is like sitting downwith a candlelight, with a cup
of tea, earmarking books, I needsomething that is quick, that
gets me if I need to like skip a.
Page What do I need to do here? So I wrote it with that kind of
reader in mind, because I also know my readers are people who
are probably high achieving, don't have a lot of.

(44:49):
Time like tell me what I need toknow.
So I wrote it with that person in mind.
Yeah. Oh, I love it.
I I and what? Let me ask you a question.
Having done all this work yourself and you and I love how
you're like, I tried it. I tried the silent meditation
every so often. I'm like, what I should do is go
away for a weekend like a retreat.

(45:09):
And I'm like, I will never do this but, and it does sound
lovely, just can't I just. And let me tell you, Danielle,
when I did it and one, I mean, it was, it was great, but it
wasn't this like, oh, now all myproblems are solved.
I showed up, you know, I drove. It was in Asheville.
And I just, I didn't really readthe fine print, which I've

(45:30):
learned is a flaw of mine. And I get there.
And the theme of this retreat isdeath and dying.
Oh no. And I had no idea.
And I was like, do I turn around?
Like there were people, Like it was silent, but there was a
guide. And it was all around this idea
of like, one day we're all goingto die.

(45:52):
And I was like, I am not ready for this.
But it was more so than the silent side, the like talking
about death. And especially when it pertains
to ambition, I was like, oh. For me, ambition kind of shifted
from a comparison proving myselfculture to a legacy driven thing

(46:18):
like once you know that like. The the clock is.
Counting down whether you wantedto or not, you don't know like
when that clock is going to go to 0.
And it seems very morbid. And I realize on this retreat
that we like definitely in like our American culture have like
we don't talk about death and dying as much as we probably

(46:40):
should. And I'm included in that.
But I was like, oh, once I realized like that there is
going to be one day where I lookback on this, like what we were
talking about in the activism and say, like, what did I do
that's going to outlive me? Like that's where my ambition
comes from now is outliving my goals instead of like box

(47:01):
checking them. Like what are some things that
I'm going to put into place in my lifetime that might matter
after I'm gone? Is it going to be that There's
going to be more women in like, speaking spots, more women
published on shelves? Is it going to be what I did for
my kids? So that silent retreat, like
actually the death and dying part, was more transformative

(47:24):
accidentally, even though I wanted to run away and hide,
because it shifted this ambitionfrom like a checklist to a
legacy. I love that.
And I, I was going to say, you know, as somebody, you've got
your hands in a lot of differentareas.
And because in an even mic drop workshop like you, one of the

(47:45):
things that you offer is like a book bundle.
So you help people with their books.
So it's not just the speaking, it's the, it's the whole.
Danielle, I love it. You know, like our offerings.
I'm like, we need to get you on payroll.
This is great. Yeah, I'll.
Be as a totally different thing.One time I used to have this car
insurance in San Francisco. This is literally like 25 years
ago and I got in a little accident and I had been had this

(48:07):
other car insurance that was crappy and then I had this good
car insurance and they like tookcare of it And I raved so much
on the phone about them. I was like, you're like, you're
the best. They were like, could we call
you? And you say that all again for I
was like, absolutely like when Ilike something.
It's such really great quality. It's actually my resolution for
this year is to do more acknowledgement.

(48:28):
I was like writing about it on LinkedIn.
I'm like, I know how good it feels when someone acknowledges
you just like you did to me. And so I am like putting just
more into acknowledgement. And so that's so.
Awesome. Well, you know.
What thank you for acknowledgingthat.
That's kind of what I'm trying to do with roar.
Like that's, you know, like I feel like in many ways that's

(48:48):
what I'm leaving for other women.
Like I, you know, I don't have alot of money.
I'm not donating. I don't have a lot of time.
This, what I'm trying to do is uplift women by way of other
women's stories and trying to shine a spotlight on what
they're doing because you know, it takes everybody.
It takes yes. All of us.
And so, so thank you for what you're doing.

(49:11):
And I know we've, we don't have a lot of time.
So let me just ask you. Now I keep going on a tangent,
but I could talk. To you all day.
Yeah, I want to do it. I'm like, which one should I ask
you? Because I only have one question
left. OK, I'm going to just go with
this one. Yeah, well, I, you know what,
I'm making it up. Here we go because I want to
know with as somebody who does have all these different things

(49:33):
going on and we didn't even talkabout the headbands, which is
fine. The point is you've got a lot of
things going on and you talk about how you want to leave a
legacy and how this kind of shifted on the retreat.
And then also you've got the book.
So it's kind of making peace with the fact of like this
ongoing ambition. How do you and if you even have
an answer for this, how do you like stop yourself from sitting

(49:57):
at say you sit on the couch, you're done for the day.
You're like, you're sitting there with your husband or your
kids or, you know, talking to your mom and you've done your
stuff, you've gotten it done. But you're like, but I did all
the stuff today for mic drop workshop, but I still have to do
XYZ for the book. And also there's this like, how
do you shift between your, between your goals, Yeah,

(50:20):
without just passing out. Yeah, I, it's something I am
deeply working on. I think my thought process is
like to move away from like completion being the goal and
contribution being the goal. So it's like, how did I
contribute to these buckets? Instead of complete them.

(50:41):
I am the kind of like inbox zeroperson or notifications zero
person where I'm like, I recognize like what the dopamine
hit it does to my brain when I see like you have 20 unread
messages. I'm like, I need to do these
right now versus my husband on his phone.
It's like he has like 3000 unread emails.
I'm like how what like our brains need to be studied.

(51:04):
And so I have recognized I have this and again, this was like
kind of a catalyst for the book because I so deeply felt like I
was just digging my claws to getto the bottom of the pile,
whether that was last load of laundry, you know, Oh, I got to
get to the last e-mail. And then you hit refresh and it

(51:25):
like comes back in again it And it was this constant.
I like call it. I'm like, if I had a memoir, I'd
call it like, hurry up and relax.
I was like, it's like, it's likemy life is like having road rage
on the way to yoga. It's like it's so
counterintuitive. I'm like so deeply hurrying to
get to peace. And I'm like, what if it was

(51:45):
just this like continuous contribution instead of and
knowing that there is no done like most things in our life
don't have finish lines, you know, building a business of
creating a culture, raising kidslike.
All the. Kind of really good things in
life don't have finish lines. And so instead of like training

(52:07):
our brains to be like and complete, you know, where's my
medal? It's like, what if contribution
was the goal instead of completion?
And so I still pass out. I'll tell you, Danielle, but
that helps me a little bit. How long did it take you to get
there? It's like again, probably a
good. It's ongoing.

(52:28):
It's ongoing. I'm just like, and I have days
like yesterday was just kind of one of those days where I felt
like nothing was going the way that I needed it to.
I'm like, Oh my gosh, like that didn't work out.
This didn't work out. And just knowing that it's like
everything is going to ebb and flow.
I'm going to have a shitty day one day.
The next day is going to be better, but there is like no

(52:50):
done. And so, but the longer I hoped
for done like I sold, you know, my first company and thought
that that was going to be this like blissful, you know,
everyone kind of dreams of an acquisition or not everyone, but
like, and it just wasn't. And so it was just this like,

(53:10):
oh, and then I wake up again andnow it's like, now what?
And so I've just been learning this lesson time and time again
that if I keep chasing done, I'mjust going to keep getting
disappointed. And so contribution is the goal
over completion. I love this.
Thank you. I think so many people need to
hear it. And, you know, my daughter just

(53:33):
turned 17 and she just got her drivers license.
And as we're leading up to it, I'm thinking, Oh my God, it's
coming. I'm going to be done driving her
to school. I'm going to be done.
I'm going to be done with all the I get so much time back,
blah. And of course it's, it's done.
She got her license and now I'm like, do you want, do you want
to hang out with me? Exactly.
Because these things that we want to be done aren't

(53:54):
necessarily they're good things,like you said, you know, they're
so it's that's thank you for this.
I really appreciate all of your insights.
Thank you for your honesty and your vulnerability in doing this
because I think thank you for making it all very accessible to
everyone and. And can I just say something,
Danielle, in the spirit of acknowledgement, I've done a lot

(54:15):
of podcasts in my day and you are one of the best.
This interview has been so amazingly conversational, but
productive. And it's such a gift to like,
not feel like I'm in an interview.
And so I don't know what your goals and dreams are with ROAR,
but I hope you like full STEAM ahead because you are very

(54:35):
gifted. At this.
You are going to totally be texting you later.
Yes. Thank you so much.
And Jess has to go and thank youso much for your time.
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for being
here. I loved this conversation with
Jess Ekstrom, especially the wayshe reframed ambition not as
something we have to outrun or prove, but something we can

(54:57):
actually shape in a way that still allows for peace.
That idea of moving from completion to contribution
really clicked for me. Next week, we're stepping into a
very different kind of contribution, one that's rooted
in creativity, storytelling, andthe unexpected ways we find
purpose. We're talking about what happens
when you follow something seemingly small and it turns

(55:18):
into something much bigger than you imagined with Piowa creator
Beth Howard. In the meantime, thanks for
listening. Jess's book is officially out in
the world today. Before you go grab a copy,
please share this episode with afriend.
That's how these conversations keep going.
See you next week on Roar.

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From Frustration to Legacy: Ambition, Speaking for Pay & Making It Without Losing It with Jess Ekstrom

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