Is this Normal? The Sex Questions Women Don't Ask Out Loud

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I think the more we learn about the sexual response in all
people, but especially in folks born with ovaries, the more we
realize it's very complicated and it is almost never just
physical or just mental emotional.
It's usually a lot of bolts. That's part of our conversation
on sex, and this is Roar. Hey everybody, welcome to ROAR.

(00:26):
This is Danielle Davies, and today we have a very special
episode. Today's conversation is 1.
A lot of women have privately. It happens in texts, in
whispered conversations and in late night Google searches.
When we ask things like, is thisnormal?
We're talking about sex not in aclinical way, not in a
performative way, but in a real human, slightly awkward,

(00:48):
sometimes funny way because for something that's such a huge
part of our lives, a lot of us were taught that it was either a
private taboo or just supposed to magically work itself out.
I'm really excited about the group joining me today because
they each come at this conversation from a completely
different but really complimentary perspective.
And they are all amazing women who have been on this podcast

(01:10):
before. So we've got Caitlin Tyvey,
who's a physical therapist. She works extensively with
pulpic pelvic floor concerns, helping women better understand
what's actually happening in their bodies, especially when it
comes to comfort, pain, tension,and function.
And how to stop normalizing things that deserve real
attention. She also consults with women
health startups. She brings a scientific lens to

(01:31):
how products, education, and care actually meet women where
they are. Alex Robbie is a sex therapist
who genuinely wants people to have great sex, full stop.
She works with individuals and couples around desire,
communication, and confidence. And she's also known for
bringing sex education into unexpected places like
Bachelorette parties, with the goal of less shame, more

(01:53):
information, and a lot more fun.And Lisa Kinsella is the founder
of Louie the Finer liner createdafter her own real life
experiences navigating divorce, a history of breast cancer,
limited contraception options, and the reality that women don't
always have as much control as we're told we do.
Her work sits at the intersection of health, design,

(02:13):
safety and agency. So yes, we're going to talk
about things that can still feela little more defying to say out
loud, especially for the non sexprofessionals like me.
Desire changes, awkward conversations, sex toys, and the
fact that some of these things are now sold at CVS.
But we're going to do it in a way that feels honest, I hope,
grounded and maybe even a littlefun.

(02:35):
I could be very red. Hopefully you're not looking at
me the whole time and look at everybody else because if we
can't talk about this here, where can we?
Ladies, thank you so much for being here.
Thanks for having us. And also I gave everybody the
caveat that I would say you guysa lot because very New Jersey of
me and I've never done a panel on the podcast before, but I

(02:56):
already started off with ladies.So we're in the right direction.
Let's just start right with the most embarrassing that way for
me, the most embarrassing for me, and it shouldn't be.
That's the other part of it, Talking about sex toys still
makes me feel a little bit mortified.
I'm 51 and I I explained to Lisaand Caitlin the other day too,
that my husband came home from the store recently, the CVS, to

(03:19):
pick up a prescription and was like, do you know that they're
sex toys, like right in the aisle?
So clearly something has shiftedand I'm going to start with
Alex. Alex why does fun sex still feel
embarrassing for people like me?That's a great question.
I feel like there's a million different answers, but I think

(03:42):
there's so much secrecy and shame around sex that it can be
really hard to acknowledge the pleasurable aspects and why
everybody's doing it. And, you know, secrecy just
shuts people down unless you're having an affair.
But everyone is doing it. Everybody is doing it and, and

(04:04):
apparently added stimulation andsupport can actually make sex
more comfortable. Caitlin, since you're working
with the physical body a lot or you you doing your practice, can
you speak to that a little bit? Yeah, definitely.
It's a really good point and in a lot of the work that I do,
there is an element of vibrationin many sex toys, but also

(04:27):
therapeutic tools that people are using to, like you said,
make sex more comfortable. I would I should level set and
say that this can apply to anybody, regardless of whether
or not you're having penetrativesex.
Some people have discomfort justwith penetration, whether it's
with a penis or a toy or something else.
But other people have symptoms, problems with just touch and

(04:51):
just any stimulation to the genitalia.
But as you noted, Danielle, regardless of where someone with
discomfort is, if they have it, vibration and stimulation can be
really powerful tools to reduce pain without getting a little
too nerdy about it, which I am prone to do.
We have a number of different nerve receptors in our body, in

(05:12):
the skin, in the muscles, and then all the tissues and all the
various different tissues. And some of them respond
specifically to vibration impulses.
Actually, some of them respond to pressure, some of them
respond to temperature. Each different little nerve
fiber is specialized. So the more different inputs we
can get to those nerve fibers, the more interested those nerves

(05:35):
become. The more the more the body goes,
Oh, hey, what's going on down there?
So that's one reason why for a lot of sex toys, for example,
vibration is a component of it because it specifically talks to
nerves that are involved in botharousal and in muscle
relaxation. You've often made of heard like
the the phrase of, oh, honey, ifit hurts, just have a glass of

(05:57):
wine and relax. It's fine.
That's my pet peeve. I absolutely hate that.
But with every lie or myth, there's always a nugget of
truth, right? And we know that if the body is
tense or the muscles are tense, pain can result.
So vibration and stimulation canhelp muscles relax too.
So for folks where who experience pain because of

(06:20):
tightness, it can be a really powerful tool as well.
OK. And honestly, just hearing the
clinical side of it makes it feel more accessible.
Do you know what I mean? Like, that's like, I'm like, oh,
that takes all of that pressure off Lisa, who who've got who've
got, you know, upcoming productsthat are going to be in these

(06:40):
aisles. What shifted culturally when
Lube and vibrators moved into just mainstream stores?
This used to be like taboo. Yeah, absolutely.
I know it's been so exciting this period of time.
I think the, I think it's very generational.
I think, you know, I interface alot with these two groups.

(07:01):
One it's, you know, my peers, perimenopausal, right?
A lot of OBGYN's, they're serving perimenopausal women
and, you know, moms of teens andthen Gen.
Z. And the contrast between those
two generations is really stark.And it's so fun to, to, to be
surfing this wave of, of that shift, right?

(07:23):
I mean, for, for us, largely ourfoundations were really negative
right back then in, you know, sex education, what sophomore in
high school, or maybe it was 7thgrade we went to in Chicago, we
went to the Crown Center and learned how a baby was born.
You know, it was like really super awkward.
And that, that messaging back then was condom on a banana.

(07:47):
Otherwise, you women, you girls,you are going to ruin your
lives. You're going to have a baby or a
disease. And that was that.
And it was negative. It was scary, it was shameful.
And, and you don't, you didn't talk about it.
And that is so very different from today.
I think there have been a lot ofshifts just in society over the

(08:11):
past decade that have ushered inthis ability for this new
generation Gen. Z, which is very subjective,
right? They are, they are the, they are
the the star of their own shows,right?
They that is a natural, right? Their Instagram, it's all about
selfie. It's all about them.
And that's great. That is needed to be able to own

(08:32):
your pleasure. And I think you know the what
Femtech was first coined in I think 2017162016.
Yeah. And it didn't really hit our
consciousness until a few years later, right?
I mean, what like that was nevera thing until 10/8 to 10 years
ago. That's crazy.

(08:54):
I think after that we see, you know, what, what was like really
next after that, the me too where women's voices, you know,
that felt that came right after,I think didn't that come right
after? It really went viral right after
Fentech came. And so for the first time,
women's voices were big and heard.

(09:17):
That was a big shift. And then we go in, then we go
into this dark period of COVID where everybody is focused on
self protection and you know, they're themselves.
Oh my God, I got to, I got to, Imean, hand washing was always a
thing, but Oh my gosh, that was so, you know, top of mind.
And and then we come out of that, like advocacy and health

(09:39):
awareness to Dobbs, right? Roe V Wade in 2022, Like, Oh my
gosh, these are really big shifts.
You add in this generation that's all about themselves.
And I think that's what's so exciting.
We are in this massive cultural shift where it is not awkward
for them. It is.

(10:01):
They're open when I'm on campus with these kids because that is
our first go to market is on college campuses.
They are so eager. There is nothing taboo.
They have questions. They want to know they're with
their roommate, their boyfriend,they're, you know, just a
classmate. They have no shame.
They are open, they are excited,they're eager.
And I love that. That's how it should be.

(10:22):
I take a lot of my examples, youknow, from them and try and
apply it to my own life with my kids and their peers, right?
Absolutely Well, that but that'sthe thing and you guys are
versed in this, you know, this is the world that you are most
comfortable in. Like you can have these
conversations and then we see itfrom Gen.
Z, they're talking about it and that's awesome for the future.

(10:43):
And and Alex and I have talked about how like even I mean, I'm
not going to bring them into it,but like even our kids are
having these conversations as well.
But for women who are maybe didn't grow up, you know, Lisa,
you talked about your your sex education and honestly, that was
like, that is like so far above what we got here in like rural

(11:06):
outside of Ocean City, NJ. Like there's there was.
I mean, it's a miracle that there are that we've
repopulated. So how, Alex, when we talk about
this kind of stuff, like how canwomen our age or of older
generations who maybe didn't grow up with this, how can we

(11:26):
explore curiosity without feeling like we have to become
our daughters or without feelinglike we have to be somebody that
we're totally not? Like we're not going to just put
on, you know, our our new persona in the bedroom.
Maybe. How can we do it without feeling
like we're still ourselves? I mean with feeling like we're

(11:47):
still ourselves. Right, So I feel like there's a
couple of things one needs to do, which is talking to your
girlfriends about this, just getting practice using your
voice in a very safe environmentbecause if you're experiencing
this, probably all of your friends are experiencing
something similar. The other is opening lines of

(12:08):
communication with your partner and sharing which you're really
feeling. Because The funny thing in
relationships is they tend to mirror your same emotions, a
different version of it, and they really know you in the
bedroom and they have the same goal.
They want to have fun just as much as you do.
I love that and I love that you say it because yes, it is

(12:32):
supposed to be fun and it's and that well, you know what, I'm
not even going to go there because I almost just went down
like a whole rabbit hole of is it supposed to be fun
culturally? Like there's a whole movement of
people who would, I always thinkback, I hope none of my aunts or
uncles mind that I'm just going to share this with you and then
move on. But my grandparents are Irish

(12:52):
Catholic and they had eight kidsand apparently after the 5th
kid, you know, my grandma had like her body had had enough and
the doctors were like, you should not have any more
children, you know. And so they went to their priest
and they said, can we use birth control?
And the priest said, no, you know, that you got to trust.
And so thank goodness they did because now I have my Aunt

(13:13):
Denise, my Aunt Kathy and Uncle Steve.
But it's really not funny. I mean, it's funny to me in
retrospect, but it's not really funny at all.
And we're going to just keep this a fun topic.
And yes, sex, it's supposed to be fun and it is supposed to be
enjoyable. Let's talk a little bit about
questions women tend to keep to themselves because, Alex, you

(13:34):
even mentioned, you know, talking to your partner or
talking to your friends. But sometimes there are
questions that start with, is this normal?
And people don't necessarily want to ask that of their
friends, their partners, even themselves.
Caitlin, you see a lot of physical stuff.
What's a physical concern? You hear a lot about women that
are often surprised to learn that it's really common, that

(13:56):
women are surprised to learn it's actually really common.
My gosh, I, I feel like almost everything that I see, see, I
have this moment. The squeaking in the background
are my animals. They make lots of noise and they
hear none. If I'm on calls, OK, good.
They like to wait until I'm on phone calls, of course.

(14:20):
So I think because I deal, because clinically I deal with
people who are coming in with problems, I'm going to see a lot
of those things that people aren't willing to ask about
their friends or ask their partner or talk to others about.
So I'm a little biased, but ideal.
I, I joke often that I talk about pee, poop and sex for a
living, which I do as a pelvic health physical therapist.

(14:44):
And there are concerns spanning all of those areas that I think
women and anybody who's born with a vagina ends up being told
is normal or assume is normal onthe bladder side of things,
especially for folks in midlife,people think that it's normal to
pee their pants, to leak a little when they sneeze or
cough, or they think it's a normal to be become more

(15:06):
constipated with time or age. And I bring those up even though
we're talking about sex because the bladder and the bowels are
very close to the vagina and theother sexual organs, right?
So those symptoms are not normal, even though we've
normalized them. Often times someone who has one
of those problems also has some sexual dysfunction.

(15:26):
I think especially if we're thinking about folks in midlife,
there's a myth that, well, you're just getting older, so
sex isn't going to be as comfortable anymore.
It's not going to be as fun. You're just going to have to do
it for your partner. You're not going to enjoy it.
And I think that that's a reallyharmful and dangerous myth on
both the physical and the mental, emotional side.

(15:50):
A lot of folks in midlife deal with vaginal dryness, for
example, especially as their hormones start shifting.
But we have lots of tools and options to help address that now
so that people don't have to just grin and bear it if they're
having discomfort or friction orpain or bleeding after sex.
So I can't even touch on all of the things that women come into

(16:10):
my office saying, oh, I just thought this was normal.
I thought this was part of getting older or part of XYZ
condition that I have. And I think the biggest take
away that I tell a lot of peopleis common does not equal normal.
Yes, it's common. A lot of your girlfriends might
be having this too, and I don't want you to feel alone because
you're having vaginal dryness, for example.

(16:31):
However, that doesn't mean you have to accept it.
There's stuff we can do to help.Hope that makes sense.
Yeah, that totally makes sense. And actually, because I was,
because I was looking at it as the lens of, you know, we're not
alone in these thoughts and feelings, but also we may not be
alone, but we're all suffering something we don't have to be
suffering with. Yeah.

(16:52):
Thank you for for pointing that out I think.
It's a kind of a thing, Yeah. If I could jump in, I think what
I, I see in these, you know, my world is split between these two
generations. Is that the older generation,
right. There's they think they're
supposed to know. They just think that they're

(17:12):
just supposed to know. And what, and the reality is for
animals, sex is instinctual. It's natural.
Like the, the, you know, the male, the, the female fox goes
into heat and then the male fox senses it and then, you know,
that's natural and instinctual and, and they know how to do it.

(17:33):
It is not instinctual for humans.
It is not a natural act. It is something that is learned.
It is largely informed by society and culture and
Physiology. And all of these things change
over time. We are not supposed to know.
This is something that we learn through our life experiences and

(17:53):
growth and, and through society around us.
And so when you take that, and Ithink that's the mindset that
the Gen. ZS have.
Oh, I don't know, I want to learn.
I, I want to consume more info on this because I want to figure
this out And I and I think I seethat as a big barrier.
We're just supposed to know, like who says?

(18:18):
Yeah, Lisa, I that you're, when you mentioned that too, it made
me think of the exact opposite situation too, because you're
straddling these two different generational windows.
And I see the same thing as wellin younger people who come in
And for example, pain, painless sex, especially penetrated sex
is pretty common in young women under the age of 30, for

(18:39):
example. But they come in, they don't
have the problem necessarily of thinking they're supposed to
know, but they have the problem of thinking I'm too young to
have something wrong. Why am I broken?
I'm only 25. So there's there.
It happens on both sides, right?Younger and older, Alex.
What do you what do you see in your practice regarding that

(19:00):
that people are supposed to know?
I think it comes in, I think. Everybody is right on this one
that we are supposed to know. There's all this information on
the Internet. I mean you could go to ChatGPT
or some of the other sites and get a plethora of information.
The problem is it doesn't reallyaddress always your particular

(19:23):
situation. So it's like you have half the
facts and then you make up all kinds of stories to go with it.
And people really don't have thetools or the skills to have
honest conversations, or they don't even know what the right
questions are. And so if you're asking the
wrong question, you're just in trouble.
Do you see this like playing outin a certain way over and over

(19:43):
again? Just out of curiosity?
Like is there a more common scenario when you say people
don't know the questions to ask or is it varied?
You know, like it's all over theboard.
It's like, you know, you come back after pregnancy maybe where
you were dealing with infertility issues and now
you're trying to have sex and now it's painful and you feel
like there's something broken and you have this vision that I

(20:06):
should just be able to make it happen.
Like everything's going well in my life.
I've had the baby and. They're not realizing like they
just went through a traumatic experience and they have to
relearn their body. They have to go back to the
basics and they have to ask the one O 1 questions all over
again. It's like sex is a natural

(20:27):
instinct. It's a drive.
But at every different stage youneed different skills to help
you navigate. Cool.
OK. And and Lisa, thinking about
like systems and, and, and kind of where you are in that from
your perspective, do you see where where it's something you
see women quietly figuring out on their own that suggests the

(20:50):
system isn't always meeting them?
I think because sex today is like everywhere and maybe
nowhere to for at least for the older generation there, it's
more open. So there's a lot of comparing
notes and I think there's a guardedness with a note with,

(21:15):
you know, generations that didn't grow up like the Gen.
ZS. And so they're only comparing
certain notes, like they're sharing certain things and, and
feeling shame about maybe fully being honest.
And I don't see that with a Gen.ZI mean they're they're so open

(21:36):
and not shaming themselves if they don't know or if they have,
at least that's what I I'm seeing.
And I'm not, you know, I'm not in the doctor's office like you
are Caitlin or you know, I mean,I'm, I'm on campus.
They're they're fully clothed and we're talking about this
stuff. So I don't know if that's I get
less or more, I'm not sure. But yeah, I don't know if I've

(22:00):
answered the question. I, I think our whole goal is to
help change this narrative that,you know, safe, protective sex
doesn't have to sacrifice feeling.
And so that's our overarching belief.
I mean, that is why this companyexists, right?

(22:22):
To bring products that provide this safety and this protection
that also give way to the fields, all the fields, because
it should be fun, it should feelgood.
And so within that context, I think that opens up a lot of
paradigm shifts that opens up people to say, Oh, yeah, well, I
just kind of thought that and well, what else did I just kind

(22:45):
of think that is not how it should be.
You know, we get a lot of lot ofa lot of questions about porn,
right? Porn is obviously teaching a
very explicit negatively prone to violence view.
And, and I think we see Gen. Z saying, wait, you know, I'm

(23:05):
not going to do that. Whereas other generations, well,
maybe that's what it should be. Maybe I should do that.
I don't want to do that, but maybe I should.
And as we go through more education, I, I honestly think
that the more the Gen. Z's are educated, that will
inform the rest of the generations.
We really spent a lot of our time there.

(23:26):
You know, one of our advisors isJustin Garcia's at the Kinsey
Institute and he has shared thatwith everything in life.
The older generations inform theyounger, with the exception of
sex and dating, it's the opposite.
So to the degree that we can really help educate these Gen.
ZS and lean into what they're asking and how they're comparing

(23:47):
notes and, and, and what images are are and questions they have
and thoughts they have about this, that's going to filter up.
That's what we believe anyway. I don't know if you guys have a
different thought. What?
Do you guys think about that? I have to say, I just having
teenage kids and you know, one that's 21, that's 17.
You there are certain things that filter up and I will also

(24:11):
add to what Justin said and it'slike technology is also
filtering up like that's anotherone.
But sometimes they go hand in hand because so much of what
kids are hearing and exposed to is through technology and social
media. And so like, you know, I mean, I
remember years ago being in Philadelphia, Alex, and we saw,

(24:31):
oh God, there's, there is a drugthat unfortunately is just a
terrible drug, but it has peoplebent over.
And it was the first time I heard about this drug.
And my daughter was there with her friend and they're like, Oh
yeah, it's blah, blah, blah. You don't know about this.
Like it's all over TikTok. And I was like, I had absolutely
no idea. And I'm like, and how do you
know about it? But there are certain things

(24:53):
that are, are, are going upwards.
And I do think that that's a, that's a pretty attic accurate
assessment of it. And, and you don't hear, by the
way, from let's let's go back tomidlife for one second, because
you know, one of the big differences and I don't think
you hear this, but maybe, maybe,maybe they're privately telling

(25:16):
each other and we don't know. But Gen.
ZS, you don't hear them talk about the I don't want this
anymore or I'm not in the mood. You know, they're they're at
like a the beginning of their sexual lives.
So they're not necessarily exhausted.
They haven't necessarily gone through parent.
Well, they haven't gone through perimenopause, but they've also

(25:36):
not had the life experiences that kind of derail you or make
you a little bit tired. I think in if you ever saw the
movie, Oh my goodness, it's an old movie where Sheila Jackson
basically is in the movie and hecomes out of the woods.
Field of Dreams and and some. Kevin Bacon.

(25:57):
Yeah, thank you. And Kevin Bacon says I'm not
like, I'm not even a glimpse in his eye yet.
Life hasn't worn him down yet. Like, and it's true.
I mean, as as sad as that sounds, life just does wear you
down. We take on more
responsibilities. So there's a lot of women that I
hear, and I don't hear this fromthe younger generation.
So I don't think we're going to get this passed up.

(26:18):
Hopefully not, but they'll say I'm tired.
I just don't want to do it. I don't have any interest in
having sex. My libido is totally shot.
From a body perspective, Caitlin, how often is not
wanting to actually the body responding to discomfort or
tension or pain? That's a really good question.

(26:41):
And I'm, I'm excited to hear Alex's thoughts on this too,
because I think the more we learn about the sexual response
in all people, but especially infolks born with ovaries, the
more we realize it's very complicated.
And it is almost never just physical or just mental
emotional. It's usually a lot of both,
right. And this idea that we should

(27:02):
have spontaneous desire to jump into bed with our partners is,
is probably a false script that has been fed to us from like
Lisa was talking about porn and social media and entertainment,
etcetera. And that's a whole other can of
worms. That said, keeping in mind that

(27:22):
sex and desire are multifaceted and come from body and motions
and brain and energy levels, oftentimes, especially for my my
folks in midlife, there is a huge physical component that is,
if not driving, at least contributing to that lack of
desire. We know from a pain perspective,

(27:42):
of course, that a lot of people do deal with what's called the
genito urinary syndrome of menopause or GSM.
They used to be called vulvovaginal atrophy.
You may have heard that term or seen that term basically changes
to the vagina. It gets drier as estrogen
declines. The tissues get a little less
elastic. They don't stretch as well.

(28:03):
They don't respond as well. They might not get as much blood
flow as they used to. So very physical components
there also physical components in other parts of your body.
What if you just had a knee replacement?
What if your back, you have someback problems?
Those things also affect sex too, right?
Think about it, if the rest of your body doesn't feel good, how
the heck are you to enjoy sex, right?

(28:24):
And then there's also the the top down effect, we like to call
it, of the changing hormones as well in midlife and how they
impact energy and libido. For sure.
As we enter the perimenopause window, testosterones and
related to hormones start to decline too.
And those are a big contributor to sex, interested sex as well.

(28:48):
So long answer to say, yeah, it happens a lot.
Physical components play in, neurochemical components like
neurotransmitters and hormones play in.
And then like you were talking about life, life gets in the way
as well. So I encourage people that give
themselves a little bit of graceand patience because you're
going through a lot, my friend. It's it's a lot to deal.

(29:09):
With you know what, it's funny because when I spoke with Alex
on a previous episode, she leaned toward this.
So I'm going to turn the floor over to her in a second.
But I think it's really funny that you just called it
interested sex because because there's like there's sex,
there's also interested sex. Alex, what do you suggest?
Because I know we, what do you suggest?

(29:31):
But let me just start by saying everything that Caitlin just
said IA 100% agree with, and I don't think I could have
answered that any better than she did.
I would just add that I've been very interested in the somatic
experience of bodywork lately and this whole idea that people
often go into flight fright or freeze reactions.

(29:54):
And so when you want to engage in good sex, you really need to
bring a level of safety into theroom so that your whole body can
relax and be at its best. And I'm actually not talking
about always the 100% like the Hallmark kind of safety sex, but
it's like you need to, your bodyneeds to release enough so that

(30:15):
you can be present in the experience.
Because I do think good sex runson energy, you know, excitement,
positive, negative, all of that.So again, I always come back to
communication is the biggest piece and your expectations.

(30:37):
If you're expecting to have goodsex, you're more likely to have
good sex if you are having the skills meaning you are.
You've maximized your diet, you're in good nutritional
health, you're eating, you know,as women, you're eating enough
protein, you're physically exercising, you're getting your
blood flow naturally. Your body is going to work

(30:57):
better and it's going to work with you a little bit more
easily. Quick pause because if you're
listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind
of person I write for. I send out a sub stack
newsletter where I go a little deeper, more personal stories,
behind the scenes thoughts, and honestly some of the things we
don't always say out loud here. If you want to stay connected
between episodes, you can find it at Roar with

(31:19):
danielledavies.substack.com. I'd love to have you there.
And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast.
It's crazy to think about all these things that affect your
mental state going into sex or even physically, like from a
knee replacement to your diet. But one more component about the
safety, Lisa, how do you feel about that, especially coming

(31:43):
from somebody who created so Louie's aligner And sorry, I'm
just jumping in and telling you to Louie's aligner.
But it part of it, part of the whole premise is that women have
autonomy and or that anyone who chooses to use the liner has
autonomy. But that is also a part of
feeling safe during sex. Right.

(32:07):
Absolutely. Louis final liners, the first
pleasure centered alternative toa condom that a woman could
control. And I do think that's essential.
That is number 1. You got to feel like you're
going to be OK. How can we close this pleasure
gap? And that is something that comes
up with Gen. Z.
They want to be able to have women as much as men.

(32:30):
How can that be? How can they be set up for
success when they're nervous andworried and he doesn't want to
wear a condom And oh gosh, you know, that is not where we want
to be. That's not where we need to be.
So we're, we've designed this product for how it ought to be,
right? I don't know if we're lying on
a, a guy to use something that doesn't feel good and was

(32:54):
constricting and desensitizing was ever a good strategy, you
know, But hey, that's like all we have right now, really.
So, but I, I would argue that Gen.
CS, you know, they have they have a lot on in their plate.
They are juggling way more than any Gen.
X did. I mean, you know, when I was in
high school and college, nobody remembered anything I said or

(33:18):
did right? You know, these kids every I, I
was so little informed about politics.
It just didn't seem to impact mein any where the world.
Yes, geopolitical tectonic shifts.
I had no, no, I mean so or very little anyway.

(33:40):
And I think they juggle a lot and everything single thing is
captured forever. And so in some ways I think it's
harder for them. And if, and if it's harder for
them to, to carry all of this and to navigate all this.
And, and yet they're still able to say, huh, wait, you know, I

(34:03):
think I feel good doing this. And I, I want to learn about
this. I, I just applaud them so, so
much for that. And, and, and that is 1 of what
an aspect that really completelydrives me.
I want to be able to provide this solution to these kids to
have one last thing to worry about.

(34:23):
You know, another thing, we're latex free.
Another thing that we're noticing is MCAS Multi Cell
Activation Syndrome is so off the charts today that
essentially is just. I don't know if it's a but is.
That. I'm sort of a response that
causes so many allergies. It's increasing allergies.
Thank you. And so these kids are, they have

(34:44):
more allergies than any other generation.
Obviously what's near and dear is that latex allergy.
So we've watched that a lot and that we've got a market of a
category of products that is latex only largely.
And we've got this group that issupposed to be using them and
they're allergic to them or maybe not anaphylactic shock

(35:04):
allergic, but irritation is a result of using them because of
this M cast that's increased. So, I mean, we all have our
generational things that we're carrying, but I, I think that
the Gen. Z is, is carrying a lot too.
And so. You know, you're you're totally
right and it, it's such a such amom, mom fail of mine to not

(35:30):
acknowledge that. And sometimes my son will be
like, I am doing more than you have ever.
And I'm like, back off there, buddy.
I pushed you out. I'm like, I have done hard
things. But you're absolutely right.
And it's sometimes I think we need to kind of step back and
think about that. And then, but I do see, and I'm
sorry, this isn't anything that I said we were going to talk

(35:51):
about. So I bet you guys are.
One of the things I've noticed is like in the Gen.
Z world is that there's so much more confident knowing or
expressing themselves as who they are sexually, who their

(36:11):
identity is sexually. So, you know, obviously back in
my day or you know, I didn't even know until recently that
the Stonewall riots happened really in I think the late 60s,
fifties or 60s. But it's it's just within a
stones throw of my birth. So you know when my mom and I
talk about my godfather, who wasa gay man and how he was engaged

(36:34):
to a woman three times in his life because he tried so hard
to. Right.
Yes, and kind of exactly. And and how much of A struggle
that was versus and my mom's like, oh, you know, like who's
very much an advocate, but also 76 years old is saying, oh, you
know, now you see gay couples, they're out and they're holding

(36:57):
hands, they're all over the place.
She's like, and your Uncle Bill,he never did that.
I'm like, well, he could have been arrested, you know, and now
you see something different. So I feel like kids now are so
much so. But that's just one.
Open for sure. Like I remember one time my son
and I were watching a football game and he said what's in the

(37:19):
closet? Because there was a football
player that had come out of the closet or he was in the closet
and then he came out open. You know, he's gay and they
didn't even know, right? And, and, you know, we have
family that's gay too. And my sons.
And I said, well, that's becausehe couldn't share what, you
know, who he was. And he said, oh, did that happen

(37:43):
to our family too? You know, my gay all right, gay
uncles. And I said, yeah, they had
destroyed. He just couldn't believe that,
right? Oh my gosh, How could someone
just not be who they are and just be open with it?
And so, yeah, I understand what you're saying and.
Now, like there are so many moreexpressions of sexuality, you

(38:04):
know, there's, there's and transsexuality, asexuality,
bisexuality. I mean, I do feel like the
younger generation is much more adoptable and much more open
about that. And Alex, yes, I can see your
hand. What were you going to say?
I think people are very knowledgeable and they have so

(38:27):
much more information, but I actually think people's
emotional skills are much more limited today than it was partly
because we had COVID with the entire world shutting down,
where people simply interacted with others less frequently.
And if you think people are turning to the Internet to
interact, it allows you to disconnect and have a little bit

(38:48):
less empathy for the other person.
So in some ways people are much more alone, even though they're
showing up, and I think that's having a profound impact on
sexual expression. I want to double down on that
too, because I was just thinkingthat when Lisa was talking as
well, that we have this weird dichotomy where Gen.

(39:11):
Z is, for example, is more knowledgeable, as Alex was
saying. But there's also this comparison
component. I think that can kind of bite
them in the butt. There's that expression that
comparison is the thief of joy. And more than ever, I think the
younger and younger generations are growing up on the Internet.
They're growing up on social media and they're constantly

(39:32):
comparing each other themselves to one another and thinking, oh,
this is what my sex life should look like because that's who
that's what my friends are doingor that's what my friends are
performing is even more important is their life.
The the lives of younger generations now are more and
more performative. And to Alex's point, how much of
that is real and how much of that is what they have learned

(39:55):
to do to cope and compare themselves to others.
So keeping that in mind. Yeah, that's a good point.
I, I see Gen. Z the kind of the, the age,
maybe late, just getting out of college, where these kids are
putting self-imposed social media limits on their phones for

(40:16):
themselves. Yeah.
And so they understand this is not healthy for me.
And I think that that I think we're going to see more of that
right in my cohorts with some ofthese other start up founders.
There's a lot of technology thatthat a parent can, you know, buy
a subscription for to put on their kids phone to help them

(40:37):
have a, a more healthy relationship with social media,
with their screen. And I think that's only a good
thing for these kids at 23202223years old to say, oh, I can't be
on social today, I'm not going to do it.
To really recognize that. I think, you know, it's kind of

(40:59):
like, do you guys remember when the kids were all vaping?
And now these kids in Europe, they're vaping, but they're not
vaping as much here. Yeah.
So it, it kind of was this phasethat they went through, a
generation went through. And then they came out the other
side and said, like, I don't want to do this.

(41:20):
I, I hope and I, I feel like that's what's happening with
social media to be able to lessen, as you, as you were
saying, Alex, that comparative, the impact of, of, of comparing
and, and the impact on their mental state during that.
Yeah. Well, and it, it brings me back

(41:40):
to, to, you know, it, it's funny, you guys all have a
different perspective. You all come, well, you all have
a different level of expertise or a different area of
expertise. But it no matter how many times
we talk about the physical aspect or the physical barriers
of physical protection, it really seems to keep coming back
to connection. Like it's connection that's

(42:01):
going to get you good sex. It's connection that's going to
kind of keep our friendships going.
It all really seems to come backto this.
And and one of the things you guys brought up earlier,
Caitlin, I think you mentioned it, that it's not like porn, you
know, it's not like you're like,oh, honey, you're home.
You know, I've got the Julia Roberts like tie on.

(42:23):
My husband would die. Because.
That's how far enough of a concept that is.
But really, Alex, you talked to me about this in our other
podcast episode before about theidea of practicing connection
and actually, you know, where itdoesn't necessarily have to be

(42:43):
on a calendar where you've discussed it, but you're but it
does have to be in somebody's head.
Like, OK, we're going to do thisat this time or we're going to.
Can you talk a little bit about that and how that kind of helps
not just the physical aspect, but keep the connection going?
So I think what you're referencing is this idea that I

(43:04):
tell my couples, one person should internally know that
they're going to have sex and put it into their calendar so
that they've mapped the entire day.
Like, you know, the dishes are done, they've got no work to do.
They don't tell their partner this, of course.
So their partner just experiences them as being very
attentive and very connected. And maybe it will lead to sex.

(43:27):
Maybe it'll just lead to, you know, helping them your partner
with their taxes or doing some random tasks that they're asking
of you. And if you're both doing this,
it means that it's going to always feel spontaneous and
you're going to feel like the other person's really committed
to you and invested and picking up on your mood and your energy.

(43:51):
I like that idea because I feel like it's something like a very
practical thing we can do to kind of just get the most out of
our own lives, you know? And and I'm curious, Lisa, how
you feel about that same thing in terms of, I mean, obviously
you've got something that enables protected sex.

(44:12):
Yeah, it can be. Yeah.
But well, I, I mean, the education around it is what
we're working on right now, right?
The curriculum that is around bringing this to market later
this year is being, is we're developing that right now.
And it's really exciting becausejust what you're saying, this
connection, educating them on this connection and the ability

(44:35):
to be vulnerable and how that can help them, you know, in
addition to this new line of products, make more decisions
and enjoy and honour versus guilt and regret and shame.
And what we're seeing is a lot of these campuses are bringing
third parties, you know, sex educators on on to, to their
programming for, you know, freshman year, first semester,

(44:58):
second semester, They're constantly doing this.
They're, they're outsourcing that and they're hiring these
third parties. We've, we know a lot of these
third parties and we're working with them with this curriculum.
And one of the things that we'veshifted is there's a, a niche of
this curriculum that is very fun, funny base, it's humor
base. It's, it's these people are sex
educators and comedians, right? And we love that because where

(45:23):
can you be vulnerable and connected when you're laughing,
when you feel good, when it's joyous, right?
Not this guilt and shame. And this is going to happen to
you if you, right? And so that's what's so
important to us, bringing more of that joy to this education

(45:43):
component so that they can be inthat space of really receiving
and the information and then associating it with connection
and vulnerability and laughter that I think is so important.
We've all just come out. I mean, I know COVID was, we
can't just always blame COVID, but damn it, it is a big reason

(46:07):
for a lot of shit, right? And totally.
And so that was really hard, dark, sad, closed off.
And, and I think we're seeing the what's the Gen. alpha kids?
A lot of my friends are educators and these Gen. alpha
kids, they are just really happykids.

(46:27):
And so bringing more of that to Gen.
Z and then Gen. X.
And so, you know, I think it's what we also we have to do.
I mean, the path is through laughter, right?
I love this. I love that like the whole
physical component of sex has come secondary to the connection
and the laughter and the joy andeven like for women in for the

(46:49):
women and anybody men, but we, since our listeners are women.
But for people who are saying things like I don't want to, I I
don't feel like it. I'm tired.
What are ways you can bring joy back?
Because a lot of it isn't that they don't want to, is that they
didn't give themselves kind of the, the freedom and flexibility
to be like, Hey, you know what, it's important that I have fun.

(47:12):
Fun is important. Like I always call my husband
the fun captain because if we didn't have him, I'd never go
out on the boat. I'd never do anything fun.
And I'm like, I have things to do.
He's like, fun is important. And I, I think that I think a
lot of times as moms, you know, you put the kids first or as
caregivers. So how do we come back and make

(47:33):
that fun? Yeah, that's so true.
Women are especially are wired to be selfless, right?
We're wired to put others first.That's that's that's a hard
thing to overcome. Yeah, Alex, you were going to
say something too. Yeah, I love to really think

(47:53):
about this as not just sex but exercise.
So it's this whole concept of not wanting to go to the gym,
but knowing if you go to the gymyou'll feel better.
Not wanting to have sex, but knowing if you have sex, you'll
feel better. These are all physical
activities. And the more physically you get,
the more embodied you get, the more connected you get with your

(48:15):
own emotions, your own feelings,the more alive you feel.
And that's the whole point of life in my mind, is to be
connected with yourself and to have the best health possible.
And you've got to just get pushed sometimes to get out
there and do it. Yeah, I think too.
Oh, sorry. I I, I that's actually a really

(48:37):
interesting point that Alex made.
A speaking as someone who works,whose profession is very
centered on exercise, it's not something I think I've ever
thought of before of like treating sex as a exercise or,
or something to do. The other comment I was thinking
when you asked that Danielle was, I mentioned that the term
responsive desire earlier. And that was a term that I first

(48:59):
learned when I was reading EmilyNagowski's book Come As You Are,
which I cannot recommend enough,especially to anybody with a
vagina like she. She speaks to all genders, but
she is definitely centered on onfolks with female anatomy and
understanding that desire and sex are a lot broader than we

(49:23):
think they are. And it's very easy, especially
culturally to think that P&V is the only thing penetration is
that is that is sex check you'vedone your sex right?
Like it's a lot more timers thanthat.
It has been crossed off the list.
Yeah, exactly. I'm like that.
I know for myself is when when Alex mentioned sex is exercise,

(49:46):
I'm like, oh, for someone like me, I could see that becoming A
to do list item like that. That's how I am built.
Not everybody is, but it could be So remind reminding ourselves
that sex is a really broad category.
And sometimes cuddling is your form of sex and that's OK.
And sometimes just touching or kissing or making out like

(50:07):
teenagers in the back of a car, like it doesn't have to be that
look like a certain thing in order to be pleasurable and in
order to be joyful. So keeping that in mind and
highly recommend. I'm Elena Gowski's book for
anybody that's that's dealing with challenges in this area.
It's blew my mind. OK, real quick, if you're
listening and thinking more women should be hearing

(50:28):
conversations like this, the best way to support the show is
just to follow or subscribe wherever you are.
It really does help it reach more people.
Thanks so much. OK, back to the show.
I'm laughing because Alex, you're like, make it like going
to the gym and how I have to be like, OK, I'm going to go to the
gym. All I have to do, all I have to

(50:48):
do is 10 minutes on the treadmill because I basically
will talk myself into the next step.
But I'm like, if I can just get in the door.
If I just get in the door, I have crossed some humongous
hurdles. So, but how do we how do we make
that? How do we do that for sex
without making it like a check off on your To Do List?
Because I am totally looking at my To Do List already.

(51:10):
And a lot of times I'm like up. Well, I think you need to be
focused on the benefit, right? The, I mean, pleasure is vital.
This is a vital sign. This decreases cortisol.
I, I'm sure Alex and Caitlin know way more about the clinical
side of what the impact is of, of sex.
But knowing that this is going to help you be a better you,

(51:35):
it's going to bring the better, the best version of you out
that's possible, right? I think that knowing that,
believing that is essential. I like that.
I like the idea of making it a better you because I mean,
another thing, by the way, I don't know how many of you on

(51:56):
this call are going through this, but I'm in, I've talked to
this season. I've talked to several people
who are working with like midlife in terms of kind of
reclaiming your own sense of self or saying no as a hard stop
sentence. Like.
And I keep using the same example that my husband asked me

(52:16):
to do something on New Year's Day two years ago.
And normally I would have kind of buffered it.
I would have been like, I don't really feel like it.
Why don't you go? I'll make some dinner.
Or I would have said, oh, you know, I feel a little tired.
Whatever I would have said. And this time I was just like,
no, like it was just, I was like, I just don't want to do it

(52:37):
and I'm not going to do it. And so you're, I'm getting a
little more selfish about what feels good, what doesn't feel
good. So I feel like we can, the way
you said it, Lisa, too, in termsof reclaiming it because it's
good for us. Like I it.
Yeah. Practicing, that is.
She died. Yeah, well, and I tell the Gen.

(52:58):
Z's like pleasure is vital. Self pleasure is vital too.
Like we're, we're seeing this completely hockey stick of
vibrators. You mentioned it in the
beginning, Danielle, right when,you know, when we were younger
CV, you couldn't go to CVS and see six different vibrators.
Definitely. I mean, you know, it used to be

(53:21):
not that long ago, less than 2% of women owned a vibrator, a
tool or a toy. And today it's well over 70%.
So that understanding of hey, this is vital.
These kids. I mean, I don't know the first a
lot of the stats are are difficult to get, but they're
not really good. It like becoming clitorate from

(53:42):
Lori, doctor Lori Mince, she's awesome.
She wrote that book and the first time a a Gen.
X had an orgasm on average was like 31.
We're helping Gen. ZS.
No, you need to be able to have an orgasm, you know, much sooner
than that, right? And I think they are now all of

(54:05):
this data really relies heavily on self reporting and sometimes
that's very skewed and that's not what is really happening.
One of the, the stats that we see often that conflicts with
the with other data is that the Gen.
ZS having less sex. Well, like to your point,
Caitlin, sex is, you know, penile vaginal insertion, OK,

(54:26):
maybe there's less of that. But now there's more oral and
we're seeing an exacerbation in the STI rates that oral, you
know, that women are receiving and getting more St. is.
So we know there's more happening and the universities
are saying we're not seeing a slow down in St. is that so
whatsoever. So they're obviously doing
something that's different from what they're, you know,

(54:49):
answering on these these surveysas sex, right?
Because still it's that mindset of, you know, penile vaginal
insertion. So yeah.
I think too, it's interesting thinking about these
generational differences as wellof Danielle, I love when you
said that you're, it's been, you're working hard to say no

(55:11):
more. And but it was interesting to
hear you use the word selfish around what's good for you.
And that's so built into us, I think, especially as women in
heterosexual relationships. Like no matter how you know, I
walk around wearing little vulvas in my ears.
I'm extremely liberal and open. But I'm in a heterosexual
relationship and I find myself and my partner is very open and

(55:33):
very not at all falling in gender roles, but I even find
myself falling into these roles.Like this is what the woman
does. This is what the man does.
And this idea that we conceive of self-care as selfish is
fascinating. Not calling you out on it, just
noting it myself. And I think one thing I've
noticed as well, I'm a millennial, so I'm 37.

(55:55):
So I'm in kind of in this weird bridge gap or bridge between
Gen. X and Gen.
Z. And I find that there's certain
things, yes, that compared to when in my 20s, I'm a lot bolder
about saying this is what I needand this is what I don't.
And I think that is really, really challenging to.
Teach. To a young person, I'm sure

(56:15):
Lisa, you encounter that and some of it can't be taught.
I think some of it is experienceas well, but one of the
blessings maybe of getting olderas as a woman, is a little bit
more confidence in ourselves andour ability to say no and talk
about what we need and what works for us because of
experience. Yeah, I think my daughter
nannied over the summer last year, and it was fascinating to

(56:39):
hear the stories from the park every day.
They were at the park with the kids, right, You know?
And so she made a posse of friends that we're all doing the
same thing and some were men. And so, you know, Jen asked Jen
why maybe we would have thought,oh wow, he's a stay at home dad.
Oh yeah, that kind of thing. But her peers, it was just, oh,

(57:03):
Joe's going to be there too. Like it was the dads and moms
and the nannies and it was all just one big melting pot and
nobody ostracized, nobody criticized.
It wasn't anything different. It was so nice from her lens to
to hear this, that the the this roles, you know, putting people

(57:24):
in a role was not a thing. It wasn't he wasn't labeled.
Oh, or they these they were morethan definitely more than one
stay at home dad. It wasn't like that.
It was just gel. Yeah, it was so great.
I thought that was so different from, you know, how I maybe

(57:45):
would have thought it was or what it was when I was younger.
Well, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out in the
future because regarding that selfish thing, Caitlin, it's
funny, you know, you mentioned it and and you're right.
And even my husband was like, well, you sound like you're
being kind of selfish. And I actually was like, and I
am I I am because I kind of was being a little bit of an ass

(58:06):
about it. But that's neither here nor
there. The the the bigger part for me,
not so much in the gender roles.And This is why it'll be
interesting to see how the future hands out is a lot of the
the the self-imposed selfishnessor vindicating something because
I think it's selfish is came from caregiving.

(58:29):
So I think I maybe started off in an equal in a place where I
was like, you know, sometimes I gave, sometimes I got and I was
willing to compromise and I was,you know, I was just a regular
person and I could decide what Iwanted to do.
And sometimes I would do something that I thought I would
compromise. Now then I went through 20 years

(58:50):
where basically I helped facilitate the life of these
people. And it, you know, I recently
wrote that I, I'm like, oh, you know, you want to, you want to
create people who can go do their own thing.
And yet my 20 year old was home from college this Christmas and
was like, hey, mom, can you copyan apple?

(59:11):
And there I was cutting it. And I know I, I think I sent
that to Alex. Alex, I think I texted you that
over the holidays because it's like, it's so hard to pull back
after being that person. I think the biggest shock is
actually to them, my kids, when I'm like, I will not cut you.

(59:31):
I will. I just won't do it.
Sometimes I'm like. I'm in the kitchen.
I mean, the knife is right here.It's so easy to put to put
myself out, but it becomes your identity.
And I think that sometimes when you think about sex as pleasure,
any kind of pleasure becomes less a part of who you are when

(59:54):
all you're doing is giving to other people.
And Alex, how much of that do you see as one of the things
people commit like? How often are women actually
walking around? I know there are women who do
this, and I am not trying to make it just be a gender thing,
but I feel like when you're in the caregiving role and Lacey,

(01:00:15):
you're talking about, you know, seeing all these men doing this,
and that is awesome. But when you're in that role and
it becomes so habitual and you are the one who is making the
doctor's appointments and literally physically caring for
the people around you, you do, out of necessity have to stop
caring a little bit about yourself.

(01:00:35):
I mean, you're you are you are possibly going to get the
stomach bug if you're crawling around cleaning up someone
else's sickness like it's. I think you are modeling
self-care. You're model, you're going to
the gym, you're healthy eating, you love your job.
You're modeling that so that as they move on and out of the

(01:00:55):
nest, at least in my opinion, they see that without this very
severe gender role lens. Totally.
And so, oh, mom, mom made the, the doctor's appointments just
because somebody had to make thedoctor's appointments.
Like I'm a single mom. So it's a little bit different
for me. Like if I don't do it and

(01:01:16):
nobody's doing it right. But the, I think that you,
you're modeling that you love your job and, and, and you love
helping. And I hope that then I believe
that they see that and do that for themselves when they're out
of the house. I want to eat healthy.
So I'm going to go cut my own apple right as totally to that.

(01:01:37):
Like, well, mom was the mom, so mom had to do it.
I'm not going to do that. I'm going to go find a wife that
could do that. Like, you know, I don't think
that's no. Yeah, and I but I feel like, you
know, in the whole spectrum of things, when you're caring for
somebody else, you know, you've got all those things and you
want to model all these things with a very it's like what's the
first thing to go? And the first thing to go, the

(01:02:00):
easiest thing to drop is your own pleasure because so how do
you re prioritize that? Like how do you say, OK, I'm
back? Well, I'm glad that you asked it
that way because what I really think is important is every five
years you need to completely recreate yourself because you're
in a completely new stage of life.

(01:02:21):
So you know, the needs of your children are very different from
zero to five than they are from 5 to 10, from 10 to 15,
etcetera. And so if you're always having
these, I must call it like you're ACEO of your own life and
you're having these like major business meetings with yourself
and you re update your life goals, your plans, What's
realistic at this different juncture, You're able able to

(01:02:44):
shift the emotional labor that you're doing and where you're
prioritizing your energy becausewe really do get into these
habits that we started when the kids were first born.
And what's great is once you have had your own meeting with
yourself, you can then have likea Co meeting with your partner

(01:03:04):
and update his or her plans withyours and then really look at it
together as to, you know, shouldI still be doing all this
emotional labor? You know, maybe I've gone back
to into the workforce and now I need you to take over some of
this stuff. And again, it all comes down to
communication and realizing we've got to continually change

(01:03:26):
with life. I love that that's such a growth
mindset. I agree.
I'd love to just hop into and, and mention as well like that
obviously the caregiving role and especially for mothers it,
it is huge. And I cannot overstate how much
that impacts my patients. And I'm sure yours, Alex's and

(01:03:49):
Alex and, and so many women out there.
And then there's also this category of folks like me that
are child free by choice. And I think recognizing that
society, I think is it's becoming more accepted, but
society often sees especially women who are child free by
choice as selfish. And it's it's very common.

(01:04:10):
I think it's again changing, butnoting that it's rarely a
selfish decision. There's a lot of things that go
into that decision for many people, regardless of why
someone is child free. Acknowledging that even if
you're a child free person, you may still carry some of these
ingrained societal expectations.I know I certainly do.

(01:04:32):
And I feel like, well, if I don't empty the dishwasher, is
it good to get emptied? That's what my mom did.
My mom is a stay at home mom. She did all these things.
So therefore, I should do all these things even though I have
a more than full time job and mypartner does as well and he's a
grown man and take care of himself.
So even if we're not in a traditional caregiving role,
it's very difficult for us to change the messages that we've

(01:04:55):
been taught from childhood, which is if you have ovaries,
these are your jobs. So continuing to sort of, I
think Gen. Z is doing a good job of
breaking down a lot of those barriers like you were talking
about, Lisa, but acknowledging that in ourselves of regardless
of what kind of role we're in, we still might be carrying some
of that baggage. And maybe just in the DNA.

(01:05:17):
Totally. And how we're raised, right?
Yeah. Hey everyone, I've got some
exciting news. I'm partnering with Louie.
That's L UW IA company that's reimagined Women's Health
through the lens of the P word. Yep, pleasure.
Because pleasure is a vital sign.
It's not taboo, it's not indulgent, it's Wellness.
Louie Lube is more than a silicone based formula that

(01:05:40):
skips the toxins and hormone disruptors.
It's the start of a movement that puts Wellness and pleasure
first order louielube@getlouie.com that's
GETL UW i.com and use code ROAR 15 that's RO AR15 for a special
discount at checkout. I, I just want to tell you guys,

(01:06:01):
I'm sorry. This is like an aside and has
not, well, it does. It has everything to do with
what we're talking about. But last night my husband, I was
working on something all day. I was working on the taxes,
which I absolutely hate. And it's like the pain of my
existence. And I was like, this is and
every time he tried to talk and I was like, like, I cannot break
concentration because I'll be totally lost.
And he was cleaning the microwave.

(01:06:23):
I see, so I love. Her So we're in the same room,
I'm in the kitchen, he's at the microwave and I'm just like
silently like trying to find allthese receipts and doing all
this stuff that I hate and so hate.
I hate it. I I hate it.
It's the worst part of my life. I can't model any good behavior
when it comes to it because I hate it.

(01:06:44):
And he's cleaning the microwave and as he's going and he's it
was overdoing he's like, I just cannot believe that it doesn't
occur to you to clean it. And I'm like, oh, it's occurred
to me, occurred to me many times.
I'm just not going to do it. And he's like, this is
disgusting. He's like, why is it always me?

(01:07:05):
And I was like, it's always you.Because if I if I take that on,
then that's just one more thing.And he was away this past
weekend during this snowstorm and we had a Blizzard here in
New Jersey. And so I had to do the things
that typically, whether it's gender or just pure laziness on

(01:07:26):
my part, I, he has done and, andone of the things that I think
that I have done, Alex is in my own role as like CEO of my life
is like a couple years ago, I was like, I will not learn a
single thing. I was like, and if I don't know
how to do it, I just can't do it.
So we got a boat and my husband always like, let's go on the
boat. We got to clean the boat.

(01:07:47):
We got to do this. And I'm like, no, I will only
ride the boat. I will not like, I will not help
you clean it. I don't tie it up.
I don't know anything about it because if I do, somehow that's
going to end up on my plate. So one of the devastating things
that's happened this weekend is that I learned how to use the

(01:08:07):
generator. And even though I want to know
because I should know, right? I'm a I'm a I'm an adult lady
who can take care of herself. Now I know the next storm that
comes around, I will my role canexpand.
So, you know, there's always being that CEO of Self, but

(01:08:27):
sorry for going into that. I don't even know why.
I just felt like I had to share the story about the microwave.
But again, I do feel, and I don't know if this is a gender
thing, but I do feel that the men I talked to, and it is
significantly less than the women that I talked to.
But the men that I talked to have no problem prioritizing

(01:08:48):
pleasure for themselves. Like they're really good about
being like, oh, you know what? I need to put the mask on myself
and take care of myself. It's, it's part of their
self-care. They recognize that pleasure is
part of their self-care. Whereas for women that I talked
to, it seems like pleasure is the is an afterthought.

(01:09:09):
Alex, what were you going to sayabout it?
You just tapped into something so important, which is.
When women quote don't know how to do something, men will take
step in and I'm using traditional male female roles.
So really what you're talking about is like, if women sort of
stop doing all the caretaking for the children, the men will

(01:09:32):
step in. It's just you need to have that
space. Like when you get a divorce,
you'll typically see men suddenly doing a lot more
emotional labor. They're going to do the cooking.
They're going to start planning and prioritizing.
And so some of this is like sidestepping and creating the
shift for your partner to fill that space and trusting that

(01:09:55):
it's OK to take care of yourself.
It's just that a lot of times weput so much pressure on
ourselves and saying, well, if Idon't do this, nobody else will.
The reality is, sometimes it's accurate and sometimes that's
not. Yes, that's a good point, Alex.
And I said that earlier. If I don't do it, nobody else
will. And that's actually not true.

(01:10:17):
For right now, where my kids andI are moving into this new
place, they are making the doctor.
My son recently over the holidays, he made an appointment
at the urgent care for himself and it was really great.
Now I took him and sat in the lobby while he went in for the
sinus infection meeting for appointment.

(01:10:37):
But he did it. And so yeah, you're right.
It it's if I because I didn't doit, I thought, well, if you're
really, I don't know how sick you are.
You're telling me you're sick. I don't know how sick you are.
And if it got so bad that he didit clearly, and I think that's
great. And I think that's what happens
with in change. Like no revolution ever happened

(01:10:58):
because things were like, it's OK.
No, it was so bad that then there was a revolution, right?
So when things get so bad, I think that's when change is
easy. You it's like a luxury of of
bad, right? It's the the massive silver
lining of bad, chaotic crisis things.
You have to make a change. You have to change shift.

(01:11:21):
You have to make a decision. That's why I feel like that CEO,
that five year CEO thing is great guidance because I feel
like it's even just in this conversation we're like, oh,
we're shifting and that's great.I want to get back to one of the
things you guys all mentioned too, is that sometimes one of
the things to increase pleasure,have a better sex life,

(01:11:42):
etcetera. If it's not, if you're not, if
it's not self arousal and you'rewith a partner is the
conversation. So sometimes those conversations
can get awkward. Not everybody is versed in that.
Not everybody is comfortable having these kinds of
conversations. And I, it's funny, very recently

(01:12:02):
I was with a bunch of college girls.
I'll not say anybody's names, but if they're listening,
they're going to know. And one of the girls was who
grew up like in a very like Boston area, big Catholic
family, no sex discussion, no idea.
Like went to college and was like, fill me in people.
Well, she had a roommate, another girlfriend of ours who
was very sexually literate and, you know, had a long term

(01:12:28):
boyfriend. And like the one girl said that
she'd walk in and she was like, oh, look, I'm so sorry.
And she was like, wait, why is he tied up?
You can do it that way, too. So, you know, like conversations
that we maybe aren't used to having, how do you start that?

(01:12:48):
And anybody can answer how do women who haven't had those
conversations start them? Naturally, right?
I mean, you're watching a movie and you can start talking about
it. You can read a book together and
talk about it. You can talk about something you
read in the newspaper. You can talk about the Epstein
files, right? I mean, like there's anything,
there's so much sex around us that that's a great way to start

(01:13:12):
the conversation because it's not personal.
You're not talking about yourself, but you're getting the
topic going. And then from there you can say
to someone, well, what's your personal opinion?
How does that feel? How?
How does that relate to us? Yeah, I think I don't know how
you feel about this, Alex. I'm but I another sex therapist
that I worked with often said a good time to talk about, Well,

(01:13:35):
anytime is a good time to talk about sex with your partner.
But sometimes talking about it in the moment is really tricky
when you're already sort of and get starting to engage in sex or
getting frustrated. But separating and having that
conversation over breakfast at aseparate time that feels less
emotionally charged can be helpful too.
If you are getting personal, your your example is more like

(01:13:58):
you said, depersonalized. But if you are talking about
your personal experience and your experience with your
partner, sometimes it's good to bring it outside the bedroom
into somewhere that feels very neutral as a safe starting point
that feels less charged. I get this question a lot with
parents saying how do you talk to your kids?

(01:14:18):
And, you know, you talk to your kids and when you feel the most
connected to your kids, you know, you're whatever you're
talking about, that's the best time because that all you're
trying to do is just add a new category to that connected
dialogue. And, and a lot of them say,

(01:14:40):
well, I, I should ask them at this time.
Well, you're not connected. You're not having a conversation
about something else. Do it when you're having a
conversation about something else and you guys are feeling
connected. Maybe you, you're laughing about
something. It's easy.
That's when you add it in and just keep your eyebrows from
raising right. Just a neutral face.

(01:15:03):
It's a neutral face when you're already talking to your kid
about something that they're interested in, that's a good
time to bring it up. It's easy.
And then and don't, don't be surprised and well, we need to
talk. Don't make it a big thing.
You know, anything that's going to be well, we need to talk
about this is it's going to put up the barriers right away.

(01:15:26):
To add on to that, I would encourage people to try having
these intimate conversations either before sex, during sex,
after sex, at all different random times because everybody's
an individual and you really don't know how the other
person's going to respond best. You know, some people feel the
most safe after you've had good sex.

(01:15:46):
Some people feel the most safe right before sex.
Some people feel the the best orconfident during so try lots of
different ways and mental notes and see what works and then
replicate it. Yeah.
That's a good point. I, I, I tell my parents that.
Not my parents, but you know, parents of kids who asked me

(01:16:08):
this, you know, when do your kids go to the grocery store
with you? Then when they're at the
grocery, you're at the grocery store.
You got the backdrop of these other things and you know, if
you're next to each other or you're then going into the car
and you're loading the bags, that's a good time.
It's easy, it's light, there's not, there's no intensity.

(01:16:31):
You're going to the grocery store.
They're relaxed, right? That I don't know.
Those are the suggestions. I, I always feel like it's car
rides. Long car rides are like the best
for any kind of conversation. You know, I can actually
remember 1 long car ride where Igot in the car with my husband.
I think it was a family trip andI was like so furious with him.
I don't I could not possibly remember what it was about.

(01:16:52):
But by the end of the car ride, I was like, I actually still
really like you like, but I was like, you can have those kind of
low expectation conversations that turn into something more so
often. I don't want to keep you guys
any longer because you've been awesome with your time.
But just one last question before I let you all go.

(01:17:14):
Is there anything that you wish women knew sooner or that you
wanted to share with the women listening that I didn't talk
about that we didn't get into? Caitlin, you want to start?
Come back to me. I'm thinking pressure.
Lisa Yeah, I mean, mine might bekind of specific to running this
business, but what I wish I knewa while ago was how little

(01:17:42):
funding is allocated to women founders.
And that is not just in the venture space, which is
obviously where I am, but the largest funder in the United
States, NIH allocates just under1% of their entire budget to

(01:18:04):
Women's Health and a tiny fraction of that, less than 1%,
to reproductive health. 170 million women.
I mean, that is just absolutely bananas.
I mean, there isn't a word that actually accurately describes
what that is. And I so wish I had known that

(01:18:24):
well before starting this journey.
I'm not quite sure how I would have done anything differently,
but knowing it would have been abetter way to set up my
expectations for how long this would take and the challenges
that I would face, right being because, you know, I, I played

(01:18:47):
soccer in college, you know, I was, I, I did whatever I wanted
to do. I didn't think there were any
limitations. I thought honestly, I believed I
could do anything I set my mind to and I was not prepared for
that big cinder block wall aheadof me that that systematically
blocks women from being able to,you know, do what they want to

(01:19:11):
do in in this in this situation.So that's what I wish I had
known sooner. And I I hope knowing it now that
everybody knows it now that it's, you know, on its way to
shifting. But.
I feel like I have so much to respond to that that I'm not
going to at all because but I myone pull away for our audience
is that we have to keep showing up and we have to keep talking

(01:19:34):
and having these conversations because if we don't, I mean talk
about if we don't do it, no one will really no one will.
So this isn't, this isn't our personal thing.
This is every woman has to know these things because I think a
lot of us, especially at this age, were raised with the idea
that we could be or do anything and we've been like really
shocked and stunned that societyis not kept up they're.

(01:19:58):
In a. Bargain because I I I remember
thinking even about women presidents, like of course there
would be a women. Now I'm like, well, I hope so.
I mean I but I assumed we'd be on like our second or third one
by now. And you know, it's anyway, Alex,
anything you want at last take away or that I didn't talk about
that you wanted to talk about that you were like we're talking

(01:20:19):
about this and we didn't do. I just want to add that I think
women still can do it all. You can't do everything well,
but you can do one thing extraordinarily well.
And the cost might be high to get there, but you have to dream
it and you have to believe in it, and you have to be willing
to get yourself back up there and keep trying and pushing

(01:20:40):
yourself forward because you're your own boss and you're
unstoppable. I I love that too, because I
think that we have to keep, we have to keep believing it.
We have to have a message of hope because the reality is
really difficult. And if we're not pushing
ourselves forward, what do we got?
So thank you guys. Caitlin, I'm back.

(01:21:03):
To you, Lisa. Now you set me up perfectly for
exactly what I was thinking because it was almost like
opposite sides of the same coin and I I'm with you Lisa.
I also work extensively in the startup space and I'm constantly
frustrated by the lack of funding and acknowledgement and
options for female founders and for women in general trying to

(01:21:24):
solve their own problems in in their health or other parts of
their life. But I also agree with Alex too,
of that there is as frustrated as I get.
I, I felt you, Danielle, and I was like, oh, I just want to say
all the things when Lisa said this, as frustrated as I feel I
have to step back as well and say, OK, what do I do with this

(01:21:45):
information? The system wasn't built for me.
How do I keep fighting? How do I keep showing up for
myself? And reminding listeners as well
that the medical system too, it was not really built for female
bodies. We're getting better, but we
still have to advocate for ourselves because a lot of the
research and the data was almostexclusively performed on male

(01:22:05):
bodies. And we are fighting to change
that. And we are fighting showing up
to try to bring more data into women's specific conditions and
how women are different from menor from even non binary folks.
There's a whole spectrum. But continuing to advocate for
ourselves and not taking no for an answer.
When you know that something is not right in your body, in your

(01:22:29):
mind, whatever it is, it's very easy to fall down a rabbit hole
when you're being told, oh, it'snormal, sweetie, just have a
glass of wine. Oh, you're fine.
This is part of getting older. When you're hearing all these
messages, I just really encourage people to stay in what
you know in your own body and keep looking for answers, maybe
talk to someone else, maybe get another opinion.

(01:22:50):
Because the more we learn about female bodies, the more we'll be
able to better care for them. And there are people out there
that will listen and will help and actually advocate for you if
you advocate for yourself. And Gen.
ZI love that too. Caitlin, remind me of a headline
I read the other day. My daughter's in Spain right

(01:23:11):
now. And so I keep up on what's going
on. And there was a judge, a woman
judge in Barcelona that made headlines for a decision.
Her decision was to enable the injuries that a woman sustained
in a car accident to be covered by insurance or she was denied
by insurance. And the insurance, the reason

(01:23:33):
for the denial was that her injuries couldn't possibly have
become have come from the car crash because it was
inconsistent with their actuarial data, which was based
on a male body. I don't know if you guys read
this. And so I was like, yes, wow,
this is great. And I said to my daughter,
sweetie, look at the headlines in Barsa.
You know, this woman, Judge, youknow, justice prevailed.

(01:23:56):
And the, you know, the white menof the insurance industry were
schooled. And this is great.
And her response? Oh, yeah.
Well, that should have happened.Like it was an expectation.
And I thought, OK, yeah. Gosh, she's right.
She's right. She's right here.
I am like, woo Hoo. And she's like, duh, Mom.

(01:24:20):
So maybe that is growing in other areas that duh, yes, this
is how it should be. Absolutely, you guys.
Ladies, thank you so much for being here.
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your time and your
expertise and your willingness to have awkward conversations

(01:24:41):
with me. You are all the best.
Thank you so much. Thanks, Danielle.
Thanks everybody. I'm so grateful to this group
for having such an honest, funny, and frankly refreshing
conversation about the things somany of us were never really
taught, and sometimes still. Don't know how to talk about.
I keep thinking about how much easier so many things would be

(01:25:02):
if conversations like this weren't the exception but the
norm. And next week, we're continuing
that thread in a different way. We're talking about the
assumptions that get made about women, especially in places like
education, and what it looks like to challenge them, question
them, and maybe rewrite them entirely with Rebecca Pierce.
If this episode seemed like something you might have had
with your best girlfriends, share it with them.

(01:25:23):
That's how these conversations keep going.
Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week on Roar.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Betrayal Weekly

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Is this Normal? The Sex Questions Women Don't Ask Out Loud

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Betrayal Weekly

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Is this Normal? The Sex Questions Women Don't Ask Out Loud

Betrayal Weekly