The Unexpected Power of Pie, Memory, and Human Connection with Beth Howard

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
It's a community gathering event.
People are lonely, they're isolated, they want to slow
down, they don't know how. And this is a chance for them to
say, you know what, I'm going tomake a pie and bring it to this
film and participate and and then share it with the audience
afterwards. We must have had at least 40
pies. That was Beth Howard, and this

(00:20):
is Roar. Hi everybody.
This is Danielle Davies from Roar.
Today we're talking to Beth Howard.
Beth was a journalist for more than 20 years, telling other
people's stories when in 2001, she made a surprising pivot,
leaving a lucrative web producing job to bake pies.
That decision eventually led to The World Needs More Pie

(00:43):
website, Four Books and now Piowa, A Piece of America, her
first documentary film. Paio has been screening around
the country, spreading largely through word of mouth, and has
already earned the Best Food Film Award at the San Antonio
Film Festival, the Audience Award at the Silicon Beach Film
Festival, an Award and and an Award of Merit from the Impact

(01:03):
Docs Awards. What stands out most in the film
isn't how pie is just food. It's memory, ritual, comfort and
connection. And how often it's women doing
that work. Today's conversation explores
why nourishment and storytellingso often fall to women, what
that labor really represents, what happens when women choose
it on their own terms, and, of course, pie.

(01:25):
Welcome, Beth. Hi, thanks for having me.
We're, I'm thrilled that you're here and I, you know, obviously
you have done my background stuff and my research into you
and I'm, and have obviously watched Piowa, which I highly
recommend. But tell me you spent decades as
a journalist beforehand. What originally drew you to π as
a subject that you could center and document?

(01:50):
Yeah, and. Not just eat, Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, I I think it goes back to what you said was,
you know, the.com job that I left as a web producer and I was
so tired of working behind a computer and creating virtual
worlds for outdoor adventure websites.
I'm like, no, go outside, you know, for real.
Like don't just look at don't dohave some simulated experience

(02:11):
on your computer. You should really go outside.
So I, I got really, that didn't like sit well with me
philosophically. So I told my bosses that I
wanted to quit and I wanted to go do something with my hands.
I wanted to like engage my senses, do something tactile.
And I said, I blurted out, I just want to go make pie.

(02:32):
And that's what I ended up doing.
So it was just kind of weird howyou could just put an idea out
there and then it happens. Like, I left San Francisco and
moved down to Los Angeles, whereI had been living previously
during my journalism years. And I walked into a little cafe
in Malibu that was supposed to be known for its pie.

(02:53):
It was actually brand new. They were supposed to have good
pie and they didn't have any when I walked in.
So I said I would make it for them.
And next thing you know, I'm notonly making pie for a year
there. It's like set me on this whole
crazy pie journey of books and now film and blog.
It's crazy because it's like it's pie, you know, and you

(03:13):
think about like any kind of thing.
I'm looking around because I'm like, it's just as as common as
anything, you know, like a candle or this or that.
But it's you've because it is actually so much more than that
and you but you've identified that it's so much more than
that. You know, it's not, it is as
simple and everyday as a candle or a bookmark or a pen or the

(03:36):
things that we use in our homes.But it's so much more than that,
because it's the experience of the making and the nourishing
and the community and the gathering, but that you
identified at that at the earliest, well.
It was also, like you said in the introduction, memory because
my dad loved banana cream pie. Like that was a thing all

(03:58):
through his life, all throughoutmy childhood.
You know, he's my first pie memory is having banana cream
pie with him at in fact, the canteen lunch in the alley,
which is this diner in Ottumwa, IA that's featured in my film.
My film opens up with that because, you know, it's my first
pie memory might not start there.
And yeah, and I I just all through our life like.

(04:20):
And now even he's. He passed away in 2017.
And when, you know, when I miss him, I go and have a piece of
banana cream pie or just to celebrate him or just, I don't
know, I can't eat a piece of banana cream pie without almost
like, you know, swallowing tearswith it because I just miss him
so much. So, you know, it's an emotional

(04:40):
thing. And I found that as a true for
pretty much everybody across theboard.
Crazy enough, you know, like people I interviewed in the film
were actually breaking down in tears on camera because it, you
know, this, I'm talking about a pie memory evoked so much
emotion and so much love. You know, that's what it comes
down to. And I think you captured that so

(05:02):
well in the film. I, I'm just curious, like, why
do you think? And of course I'm, I mean, I
think I know the answer to this,but I want to get your words,
obviously. Why do you think feeding and
nourishing, especially through something like PIE, which is and
you know, in your film, I'm get letting everybody know in the
film, Beth actually shows that pie isn't you know, they're

(05:23):
savory pies and there's meals aspies and and talks even about
different cultural interpretations of pies like egg
rolls and things like that. But in terms of the American
view of pie is like a dessert and something special and like
the add on to your your meal. Why do you think feeding and
nourishing, especially through that kind of special thing of

(05:46):
PIE, has historically been women's work?
I just got asked that the other day.
And then I kind of argued and said, well, there's lots of men
making pie now too, you know, Sothat's true.
That's something that I learned by making the film is that there
are also a lot of men that make pie.
And it is, you know, associated with like at least in Iowa with

(06:07):
the church ladies, not church men, but the ladies, you know,
and you know, the farm wives, housewives, you know, pies are
taken to fundraisers. Pollocks.
It's it is usually the women. I mean, that's what we see face
value. But if you dig a little deeper,
there's also a lot of men makingthe pie.
But but you know, it's like likelike in Iowa.

(06:29):
I think what makes it so sort ofclosely associated, associated
with Iowa is the farm wives likethey would.
I heard a lot of stories about, Oh yeah, you know, my grandma
used to take pies out to the field and feed the farmers at
lunchtime. You know, women don't do that
anymore. Generally, the guys come home
for lunch, make their own damn lunch, you know?

(06:52):
But back in the day, you know, that was just sitting.
The women made the pies and tookthem out to the field and fed
the men and or that was like field, but any office or
whatever, you know. That was like the trade off,
right? Like your financial you're
giving me financial care. I'm supporting you with the
emotional, nourishing care and food that.
You love food that makes you happy, food that gets you

(07:14):
excited, you know, like, and that's the thing though.
It's this exchange where if you bring a pie to somebody and
they're like, oh, I look so goodand they love it.
And you know, they love it, you know, and then you see them
happy, that makes you happy. And it's just this like really
beautiful, warm exchange of kindness and generosity.
Like, I know you like this pie, so I made it for you, right?

(07:37):
And then it makes everybody's day better.
Like the farmers in the field, for example, if they're swing
their butts off out there and then somebody brings them the
pie, it's like you win some bonus points for that.
Quick pause, because if you're listening to Roar, I have a
feeling you're exactly the kind of person I write for.
I send out a Substack newsletterwhere I go a little deeper, more
personal stories, behind the scenes thoughts, and honestly,

(08:00):
some of the things we don't always say out loud here.
If you want to stay connected between episodes, you can find
it at Roar with danielledavies.substack.com.
I'd love to have you there. And now back to your regularly
scheduled podcast. You talked about to the effort
like that means something. And I always for me.
So I didn't grow up with a lot of pie.

(08:22):
I mean, I love pie and I do havea great pie story, but I did not
grow up like my mom is half Italian, my dad's or my mom's
Italian, my dad's Irish. So I grew up with like all the
steak and potatoes dishes of theworld and like a million
different Italian cookies. And so like we have a special
Italian cookie that we make every year and it reminds me of
my grandmother. And this is her rolling pin.

(08:43):
And we do all these things and it's the labor of those cookies.
Some people don't even like the cookies, but it's the amount of
work. And I think even like with pie,
right, it's, it's the effort. And I always relate it to
mixtapes. Remember mixtapes, like if
somebody made you a good mixtapethat was effort like that took

(09:04):
time. You're hitting start and stop.
You're waiting for the right song.
You might call into the DJ to have them play a song.
So these things are transformed from just food or things to like
a form of care. When you were making Piowa, did
you see that more than you already see it doing like

(09:25):
cookbooks and, you know, servingpie?
Did you already? Start to yeah no, that was what
the whole film was really about was showing care for others, you
know ultimately. And so, yes, I mean, I was just
inundated with all those storiesof, of goodness and kindness and
generosity, you know, people making pies specifically just to

(09:47):
give it away, you know, for Thanksgiving or, you know, like
I said, for the fundraisers, yousee all these people coming
together to volunteer to make pies, you know, to support their
town. So, yeah, I mean, every, I think
every single story had some sense of care for others in it.
And absolutely. And I think that's what makes

(10:09):
the film so meaningful to people, why it's resonating,
because it's like, no, if we would all just do one thing to
show somebody else that we care,you know, that our world would
be in a much better place. Like I'm, and I mean, I'm
quoting somebody else from the film who said that, but I
believe that also, you know, it's just, it doesn't take much.
It just like, go make somebody apie.

(10:32):
And then also, as you saw in thefilm, the food editor from
Better Homes and Gardens. You know, the Red Plaid
cookbook. Yes.
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, and she even says even if
you have to use a cheater crust.And I love how she did the air
quotes. You know, I, I had, I worked
with an editor on part of this and I said, oh, you got to, you
got to show we're doing the air quotes 'cause that's a cheater

(10:53):
crust, you know. Oh, and.
I love the. Emphasis right?
But yeah. Doesn't matter.
The fact is you're going in the kitchen and making somebody for
somebody else, you know, to showthem that you care.
So it's a. It's just.
It's a simple thing you can do and.
And it's effort, but it's a it'seffort, but it's not like a
tremendous amount. It's not like building a house.
Like it's not building a house. You don't have to give

(11:15):
everything. You know, part of the reason
that I started this podcast is because I wanted to show that
women, the different ways women support other women and that it
does like that advocacy doesn't mean you have to just show up
somewhere with a picket sign. And you know, there are a
million ways. Like I, I hear women and they'll
say I want to make a change, butI don't want to run for office.

(11:36):
And like, well, there's a million things you could do.
You could write a poem, you could bake a pie.
You could do. There's so many ways to.
Knit a Red Hat. Yes, you could.
Yes, you could do that. There's so many ways.
That's your next, that's your next documentary.
There's so many ways to make a adifference in people's lives in
a positive way. And I just thought the way you

(11:58):
portrayed it and showing these ladies and like these everybody
has to watch this film showing these ladies and like these
tables just full of pies and like sometimes their whole pie.
Sometimes you see the slices andpeople coming up and, and I'm
like, and they're, I'm getting off topic, but I want to say
also, I loved the idea. And I do feel like this is a

(12:19):
very, I mean, yes, there are menwho cook.
Don't get me wrong. My own husband is a great cook
and he makes, he's been making dinner a lot and I'm very happy
about it. But but he's not necessarily
resourceful in the way where I'mlike, well, there's a little bit
of this. We should do this.
So one of the things that I really loved about Piowa was the

(12:42):
Raisin sour cream pie. And the idea and people who are
listening might be like, becauseat first I was like, oh, but
then I saw it. It kind of almost reminded me of
a rice pudding, like the way that it looked And I was like, I
think I could try that pie. But the idea that, you know,
these are things that were plentiful when there wasn't

(13:03):
fresh fruit, you know, you had dried grapes and you had sour
cream. It's dairy farms like they made
do and and learning to make do. And could you speak to that at
all about women's ability or especially anybody who's like a
nurturer or caregivers ability to kind of adapt and and just

(13:26):
use the resources available, which I feel like is just so
much of pie? Right.
And that's that's what some of the older women in the film
talked about, is that, you know,that's all they had in the
cupboard back then. Or they didn't want to.
Like they, like you said, they didn't want to be wasteful.
That's why the sour cream Raisinpie has a meringue top because
they use the egg yolks in the pudding.
And then so they save the egg whites for the top.

(13:48):
Yeah. I mean, that that was, I think
they didn't have money. They didn't have grocery stores,
you know, they didn't have what do you call the Amazon Prime or
DoorDash or whatever the hell, you know, like they, I, I,
that's one of the things I talk about a lot when I teach pie
classes. And like, you know, The Pioneers
made pie right in their wagon trains traveling across our

(14:10):
continent without refrigeration,without big ovens.
You know, they had Dutch ovens. They cooked over campfires and
put coals on top of the lid. And you know, I think the pie
Harkins back to that, you know, of really having to make do not
just with ingredients, but with everything.
Like, you know, we have these recipes now that are so fussy

(14:31):
and it irks me because it's likeyou don't have to do it that
way. Our ancestors didn't do it that
way. They didn't have all these
conveniences that we have. So let's try to just keep it
simple. And I feel like there's a real
lesson in that, you know, from making do with what you have,
you know, if you, I don't know, there's always a substitute,

(14:55):
right? And, and anything could go in a
pie crust. So that's, that's the other
thing about pie, absolutely anything sweet, savoury, any
combination of anything. So this, the versatility of it
is really lends itself to improvisation or, you know,
using whatever you have on hand.And I think, I don't know, I'm,

(15:17):
I'm practical that way myself. So I, I don't like it when
people preach about you have to use this fancy brand of butter
or, you know, your fruit has to be just so.
And it's like, no, it doesn't, you know, like go pick the
apples in your backyard, even ifthey have worms in them, you
know, you cut around them. That's what we do.
And I, and, you know, and livinghere on a farm in Iowa, it's,

(15:39):
it's well, with the people I live with around me, it is like
that, you know, they are still making do with things, which I
appreciate. I mean, the nearest grocery
store is 1/2 hour away. That's not easy to get to when
you're when you have, you know, a foot of snow on the ground.
Yeah, or when you need just likea simple, you know, you forget
two things, right? Like you got to do that.

(16:00):
You're. Going to have to find something
else. So and you know, I've been
living, I've been living in rural Iowa now since 2010.
So I have really learned different a different way of
life, you know, in terms of shopping and and making do,
improvising all that. So go or going without.

(16:20):
This is like way esoteric and not at all what I plan to ask.
But you know, you have such a unique cultural viewpoint.
Your lens is because you're backand forth between Iowa, where
you're on a farm, and LA, where that is not what people think of
when they think of LA. Like they're not thinking of
farms. And you weren't really, and you
were in San Francisco. So even just like in this

(16:42):
cultural moment that we're happening to have right now,
which is obviously uniquely terrifying time in 2026, how can
things like as simple as pie help?
And I hope I'm not making that sound too simple because I don't
mean it to be like too simple. But I feel like there's so much
running and we have so much focus on the problems of the

(17:07):
world and rightfully so because it's a hot mess.
But but I feel like there's nothing very slow going on.
You know, like I, I intended to send a letter to somebody this
morning and I got a text before I got it back.
And I actually was going to write a handwritten note.
It was a thank you note and somebody texted the thank you
from somebody else. So I just joined on.
I'm like, well, you're right, forget the note.

(17:28):
I'm going to just cut to the chase here and thank you.
But I was like, the note would have been so much more
meaningful. You can still.
Write the note. I can still write the note and I
probably. Should still write the note.
Yeah, I would still write the note.
And that's like a homemade pie. And people appreciate it and it
it really means something. And even if you already said
thank you via text, doesn't meanyou can't still write the note.

(17:50):
And that's what I was going to say, like culturally, do you
feel like it's these simple things that can help us or how
much do you think they can help us?
Well, I have a very recent example.
I just did a screening in Newport Beach, CA.
OK, the land of yachts and wealth, you know, And I was

(18:11):
really nervous that people wouldn't come, that they
wouldn't have that, like, deep appreciation for pie.
You know, this is a film about pie in Iowa.
Why would they come? So we sold so many tickets and
people showed up with homemade pies to share with others after
the film. So that's become this part of

(18:33):
this phenomenon of Piowa where it's a community gathering
event. People are lonely, they're
isolated, they want to slow down, they don't know how.
And this is a chance for them tosay, you know what, I'm going to
make a pie and bring it to this film and participate and, and
then share it with the audience afterwards.
So we had like, I don't even know how many.

(18:54):
We must have had at least 40 pies.
Yeah, well made. People showed up with their
little baskets. And I was so surprised and so,
so excited about how the screening went because I don't
know, people showed up that werelike, well, my grandparents were
from Iowa, my great grandpa. So there, there was some like

(19:14):
Iowa root thing. And it did just brought out
something in them of like, And also by the way, when I'm in LA
and I tell people, well, my, youknow, I also live on a farm in
Iowa, you should see their face.Oh, that just sounds so great.
You know, So I just feel like there's this longing for more
simplicity. And I feel like I've been able

(19:35):
to convey that not only just by making the film and showing it,
but but these screenings that are bringing people together in
real life and sharing pie afterward.
Like hanging around. They don't just take off after
the film ends. They stay, they eat pie, they
tell. Everyone's got a pie story.
You already told me that you've got a pie story, so I'm waiting

(19:55):
for it. But everyone's got a pie story.
It's amazing. And it's just been so.
I don't know, like life affirming, you know, and people
are just full of compliments when they come out because they
just, oh, this made me feel so good.
This gives me hope for humanity.It just reminds you that there's
kindness in the world. And, you know, and there's a

(20:17):
full range of people representedin this film, young to old,
every ethnicity, you know, I, itjust shows you the, the, the
broad scope of this one subject of this one dish that connects
us, you know, and it's somethinglike we can all agree on in a
time where we're so divided. But well, guess what?
We all still love pie. Let's get together and eat pie

(20:39):
and share pie and, and that's it.
I mean, there's. It's crazy.
You have to, you actually say that because it's like, I was
just reading an opinion piece. I want to say it was David
Brooks. I think he was, I think it's him
who was an opinion columnist with The New York Times and he's
A and he's retiring. And he was saying that over the
course of his career, one of thethings that alarmed him, you

(21:01):
know, there was good and bad. But one of the things that
alarmed him is there was, there is such a disconnect right now
of alignment in terms of good orbad.
This is but but like, it might be as easy as π but it's like if
π is 1 universal truth. And we can say, OK, let's just

(21:24):
start here. We all like pie, some kind of
pie, right? Like we all like pie now.
Like what's the next thing we have in common?
You know, it's just that's why Ididn't mean to make the question
so big, but it or so heavy. But I feel like even with this
kind of simple conversation, it's so much more than that,
especially now, you know, I feellike you really managed to

(21:45):
convey that in the film as well.Well, it was important to me and
I'm glad it came through, you know, and it was like, these are
other people's words, you know, everything I would have liked to
have said, but it's so much stronger coming from this whole
assortment of people. But I would add one more thing.
I mean, first of all, I think this is a really important
subject, but a little aside fromthat, because I always say pie

(22:06):
is a metaphor. So like, if we can all agree on
pie, maybe we can agree on find something else we can agree on.
It's a starting point. But also in teaching pie
classes, people are really afraid to make pie crust.
They think it's really hard and they're just they're fearful.
And so when I so when I teach a class and I'm really strict, I

(22:28):
can walk around with my rolling pin.
If you if you overwork that door, no, I'm going to you know,
I'm you're going to, you're going to be sorry, I got I got
not. I think so.
Right, right. So, so the pies always turn out
because I am so vigilant, you know, I'm just keeping a really
close eye on everybody and they all the, all the pies all have

(22:48):
100% success record. And my thing is, if you can get
past your fear of making the pie, then maybe you can get past
the fear of doing something elsethat's like the entry.
And then you go, well, I made a pie.
Maybe I could also do, you know,fill in the blank, right.
So that's to your point of if wecan all agree on pie, maybe we

(23:09):
can find other things to agree on.
But if we can get over our fear of making pie dough, we can also
get over a fear of other things.So it's, that's why pie just
keeps bringing me back. It's such a great metaphor for
so many things. It's a, it's a great teaching
tool. It's a great, I don't know, just
it's, it's a great symbol of so many things.

(23:30):
Well, and I feel like, you know,as anybody who's a care, it's,
it's storytelling too. Like you're seeing the metaphor
and you are a storyteller and you're also a Baker and a pie
Baker now. A pie expert and a documentary.
Documentary director, producer, the whole 9 yards.
You create whatever. I don't.

(23:51):
Know. I just want the world to be a
better place. I don't care what you call me.
I'm just out there like trying to use my voice and my
creativity and, and speak my truth and encourage people to
be, you know, just to be more generous and think of others.
Don't be so fucking selfish. Oops, sorry.
You're totally fine like the. Grammys, you know, they have to
believe. You're going to believe me.

(24:12):
But yeah, I don't know. It's just like, really think of
other people, not just yourself,you know?
And Pi π symbolizes that just byits virtue of it's meant to be
shared, right? I love that, but I and I love
that you've recognized the storytelling aspect of π and
like helped other people to be able to do that too.
And that and like you're like everybody has a π story.

(24:34):
I mean, it's, it's kind of like any type of historical knowledge
that we used to get was passed down.
And it's so often like pass downwhile you're talking, while
you're doing something in the kitchen.
And this is like it's the item itself, right?
It's the pie. It's the tangible thing.
You've made that, but it's also the conversations that are

(24:55):
happening over it, around it. And so I just think it's a great
storytelling metaphor, like you said, so.
I never, I never seem to get tired of it.
You know, that's, that's what the I have tried to get away
from the subject a few times andI go, have you?
Well, I'm like, maybe I should try.
I'm a Gemini. I have to like, you know, try

(25:16):
new things, challenge myself. I mean, so rather than find a
new subject, I'm like, the subject is still so compelling,
why not find a new medium for it?
And that's why I switched from books to film because I'm like,
I need a new challenge. And yeah, so wait.
And what was that like, by the way to transition into that?

(25:37):
And that's like another thing totalk about too, because you're,
you know, this foray into this, a lot of times I think people
think, oh, I'd love to, I'd loveto do this, but I already have
this career. I don't know what I'm doing.
I don't know how to make money doing and I don't know how to
support it. So that's the over, that's the
overthinking stuff. I don't do, I don't do, I don't
overthink. That's that's what stops

(25:59):
everybody. They overthink it.
They come up with all the reasons why.
No, it's not going to work, you know?
And I'm like, I don't know, I'm just going to try and see how
far I can go. And then I just kept going.
And once I committed, I was like, I'm not going to give up
on this. I'm going to finish it all the
way to the end. And I had written books before,
so I know how to do a longer term project, but you had to

(26:20):
learn everything. But that's kind of what I
wanted. And also just some back story.
I've been trying to sell a docu series about pie.
Oh, get out of here. Since 2010.
OK, that's a long time ago and Hollywood just wants a baking
competition. Like another baking competition,

(26:42):
really. Or they want a celebrity host.
And I'm saying neither. And so then I was like, you know
what, I'm just going to make my own proof of concept and show
you what I'm talking about because you can't seem to
freaking understand that this isabout everyday shining a light
on everyday people telling otherpeople's stories.
And, and a lot of people when I was making the film said, Oh,

(27:04):
this should be more about your story.
And I said, if you want to know about my story, you can go read
my books. I've had lots of press.
You don't I I've done a TE DX talk.
I don't need to tell my story. This is other people's stories
and and there's so many great stories there as you saw in the
film and and that's only a fraction of them.
So so I just called up a whole bunch of film makers that I knew

(27:26):
and asked for advice. And then I started shooting some
things on my iPhone and then I hired some camera people.
And then next thing you know, itwas like a full in, you know,
both feed in going around the state of Iowa to the bike ride
across Iowa. That's this annual bike ride,
500 mile bike ride across the state every year where people

(27:48):
come and they have team names, you know, like team pie hunter
and team no pie refused. They're just riding their bikes
so that they can eat pie all along the route because these
church ladies come out or you know, these organizations, the
Amish, you know, all these people have these pie stands
along the route. So it's a big pie event and then
the Iowa State Fair with the piecompetition and pie on a stick,

(28:11):
which is really funny. And pie it's.
Crazy. And I have to say, like I didn't
know any of this history about pie.
I first of all, I had no idea. So for anybody listening, we
were Beth and I were introduced through another, a friend of
Beth's and who told me about this.
And one of the things she said is that you had gotten that
first job in Malibu at the bakery, basically because you

(28:32):
said you lived in Iowa. And so they associated that so
strongly with pie. I had no idea that it was like
Iowa and pie go together like peanut butter and Jelly.
I don't know. No, I mean the good bite, like a
lot of this stuff that's happened is just because I
blurted out, you know, without thinking like, oh, I think I'll
quit my.com job. I think I'll just go make pie
and then, you know, I go to the pie thing to get a well, I'll

(28:55):
make it for you. And then I'm from Iowa.
I don't know, I I just. No, but it's just a little.
Bit crazy about I. Think it's really, I think it's
whatever. It's great, but it is also like
more astute, I think than you even realize.
Like I think you're onto something, but it's happening at
some some like deep level where you're like, it's just me, but

(29:15):
no really you're onto like. No, I don't know, sometimes.
Sometimes I feel like, though, with making this film, because
it was hard, way harder than writing a book.
Way harder. And I had to learn how to edit
like Adobe Premiere Pro softwarethat made me cry many, many
times and swear a lot. And my partner would hear, he'd
come home for lunch and he'd hear me up in my office.

(29:37):
You know, he knew, like, stay away.
So you did. All the editing.
I didn't do all the editing. I did a lot of the editing and I
ended up doing a lot of the shooting because some of the
camera people I hired did a verypoor job and I was like, I'm not
going to pay money for this one.Also in IO, those old ladies,
they don't like a big camera crew, you know, they just, they

(30:00):
just freeze. They like they just completely
wouldn't talk, they wouldn't smile, they wouldn't tell me
anything. And I was like, Oh my God, what
am I going to do? But if you use the phone, it's
amazing that they, you know, they're used to it being having
a phone around, it's small, it'snot like in their face and.

(30:20):
Grandchildren probably have. So then I could just run around
with my phone and I got really good footage that way.
So I was like, OK, But then the editing was definitely the hard
part because what do you do withall these stories?
How do you put them together? And everyone was like, oh,
what's your 3X structure? And I'm like, I don't have a 3X
structure. And it took months to figure out

(30:41):
what you know, and it's I it doesn't have to be a three act
structure, by the way. It's a theme based movie, but
there but a three act structure just sort of organically show
itself by like, oh, past, present, future, right.
Here's the the nostalgia aspect,the memories.
And then there's the what's happening now with all the

(31:01):
events. And then there's the future of
pie making with all these young people baking.
So it kind of just showed itself.
But with this project, never in my life have I ever felt like
the universe has my back like this.
Like every time I needed something and I was against the
wall, boom, it showed up. Whatever I needed showed up

(31:24):
every single time. And it's still happening.
It's crazy. Wait, tell me an example.
Well, I was out of money and then all of a sudden I got this
grant from the state of Iowa andit was like I didn't expect to
get it. And I was like thank you.
And I mean, I was just getting down to 0 in my production bank

(31:47):
account, so yeah. Oh.
My gosh, that's. Down to the wire and it just
happened again. I, you know, then I needed
somebody to do my what they callcolor correction, which, OK, not
a fun process. And by the way, the color you
pay thousands of dollars to haveall the color like evened out in
your film and then it looks different on every single screen

(32:08):
everywhere. It's crazy.
Like it there's, I'm still like,I'm still having stress about
certain things about the film, but.
I'm sure because any, any editing experience that I've
had, even from doing a podcast has been like so painful and so
terrible. And I'm like, This is why.
Like they say that the average podcast only lasts 7 episodes.

(32:30):
I'm like, that's why, because. But once I got into it, I loved
it. That was actually one of my
favorite things looking back. It's like a jigsaw puzzle and
oh, maybe if I put this here or this song here or, you know, the
transition with this and I, it was, that's the Super creative
part. I think editors are very
underrated for what they can do.Yeah.
Do you think you'd ever do it again?

(32:52):
Oh, yeah. So if you would have asked me
that when this came out in June,I would have said no way.
Never. And then around Christmas, I was
just laying in bed and I was like, oh, well, what if I did
that story? And then I was like, what about
that other story? Next thing you know, I'm like,
wait a minute, are you thinking about doing another documentary?

(33:15):
You know, so like without even trying, you know, just the
subconscious or whatever woo woostuff happens.
It's like, OK, we're ready to dothe next one.
And you know, because I had madethis as a proof of concept for
ATV series like the docu series or streaming, whatever, I don't
feel like I want to do that anymore.

(33:35):
I don't want that. I almost want to use the word
constraint. Like I don't want the constraint
of having to answer to like a studio or another production
company or, or a street, you know, like, no, this.
I love the autonomy of doing a documentary, working
independently. I call all the shots.
It's all on me. I, I, I like that and I can

(33:59):
handle that. I've proven that and I don't
need anybody's permission. So I'm thinking like my next one
would be like Piowa, but it would cover the whole United
States, like as a just, you know, show the geographical
range and definitely more stories, you know, from other
parts of the country. And I'm not saying I'd go to

(34:19):
every single state and, you know, but maybe every year,
every year, because I didn't saythat every year I could do a
different one. No, I didn't say that.
It's not a series. It's just maybe I could do one
more and, you know, see where that leads.
I don't know, but there's definitely no pun intended, but
there definitely seems to be a hunger for this.
And I always think of this, there's these films, Warren

(34:43):
Miller ski films. They've been around for decades.
And I used to be a big skier, soand I lived in California and
I'd go to the Warren Miller filmand it's like, it's an in person
thing where everyone comes once.It's not online.
It's interesting. So you go to the theater and all
the skiers, they have this love of skiing in common.
They come and watch the ski filmand they have a new one every

(35:04):
year. And I mean, I'm sure they've got
lots of people working on this. So I'm just I'm just by myself,
but. For now.
Yeah. But I know I do need to hire
people, but I don't know that guy sort of see the pie film
like that kind of a phenomenon where everybody who loves pie,
they would love to get together every year and see the annual

(35:25):
pie film, right? Would that be fun?
And I've also been reading articles about, there's a, in
fact, Pam Redmond sent me an article about there's a, a
trend, if you will, to go back into the theatre, you know, to
in person events that have some kind of a common theme or a, you

(35:46):
know, a unifying thread something.
And I'm like, I'm doing that, you know, I'm, I'm ahead of the
trend. So or I'm right on trend?
Yes, you've been ahead of the trend.
You know, in the very beginning when we started talking, you
said about working in San Francisco with web stuff and how
you wanted something tactile. And I literally also worked in
San Francisco was doing working at a publishing company, which

(36:07):
isn't, but it was duringthe.com era.
So I think everybody was trying to like lean towards that the
early 2000s, not the dot, the beginning, the boom of the
beginning. But it just reminded me
recently, you know, I live in New Jersey.
So it gets really Gray. And I'm, as I get older, I
noticed like the darkness startsto affect me more and I don't,

(36:28):
I'm like, I need a like a dose of sunshine.
And so a couple years ago I bought myself one of those
little lamps that you're supposed to put yourself in
front of. And I really did never do it
because like I, I know it's still long enough to have myself
in front of the lamp. So I almost the other day
invested in these glasses that were several $100 and you put

(36:48):
them on for like the first half hour of your day and they're
like light. It's like a light to kind of
open your eyes and it emulates sunshine.
And then all of a sudden as I'm about to like hit the button to
like go on a payment plan by these glasses, I'm like, or you
could just go outside, you idiot.
Like, like just, I feel like we're just starting to have that

(37:11):
yearning to return to real life.Like not that any of these
things aren't real. I mean, I couldn't have a job of
any sort if there were no Internet.
Like I, I'm very grateful for the luxuries that technology has
brought me and I'm grateful thatI can access the things I can
access, But I feel like we've stepped away so much from, you

(37:36):
know, the actual grass, like theactual like I was like, I'm
about to buy a device that emulates the very thing.
All I have to do is put on a coat to go feel on my face.
And I feel like that's a lot also of what Piowa does and, and
to do those in person, like, youknow, you're talking about the
events or even rolling it out asa continued thing.

(37:58):
Think people miss community and people are lonely, like you
said. And it's we've also forgotten
how to get along a lot with people who are different than us
because we don't ever really have to see them.
You know what I mean? Like you don't have to.
There are a lot of ways to not leave your house.
Right. So yeah, I I definitely see

(38:19):
that. That's than one of the huge
draws of this film. And then the word of mouth,
because people feel good when they come and see it.
Then they want their friends to have that same experience.
And it is really fun when there's pie served afterward.
Oh, come on. Exactly.
Well, everybody's so hungry for pie after the film that they're
like, Oh my God, I'm desperate for pie.
It's like I can barely get through the Q&A because I'm

(38:41):
like, I know you guys know there's pie out there and
waiting for you in the lobby, so.
And all different people short. What's that?
And all different kinds like, well, and, and one more thing I
wanted to ask you. Well, a few more things, but
before I get to the actual pie because I feel like I feel like
I'm going to have to hang up with you and go to the grocery
store, get some butter. I should have had some here.

(39:05):
But you know, talking about you transitioning into this new
skill set and learning this new thing.
A lot of not a lot, but there's a section of your film where you
speak to some younger women who are leaving, leaving corporate
careers to open up their own pieshops.
And it's that it seems to be that also that autonomy.

(39:28):
What are you, how do you think about that shift?
Is it, are they stepping away from ambition?
You know, there's a lot of talk about the ambition gap.
Or are they redefining ambition?I think it's a number of things.
I think part of it is they want to do something real, you know,
they want to do something with their hands.
Like, like that was my reaction to leavingthe.com.

(39:50):
They want the autonomy, definitely.
And as far as ambition, no, it'sreally hard work to run a pie
shop. It's really hard work.
So you have to be ambitious. You have to still be ambitious
if you want to do a pie shop. There is a lot to it.
You know, it's not just, oh, I want to make some pies and
people will come. It's like you have to do the
marketing, you have to do the, you know, the ordering, the

(40:12):
it's, it's a lot. I had a little pie stand for
four years and it was. Oh, people would say, oh, it
must be fun to have just a little weekend business.
And I would just like, like, youknow, steam would come out of my
head. I'm like, you have no idea.
I work seven days a week to do this little weekend business,
you know, So, yeah. So no, it's a it's a noble thing

(40:33):
that these people are doing thatthey're opening a pie shop.
But I mean, I still, I still seestorefronts.
I go, oh, that'd be a cute pie shop.
And I still have my fantasies, you know, like, oh, I could, you
know, and I'm like, don't even think about that.
You're not, It's not going to happen.
I'm so bad at bookkeeping. I could never keep a pie shop
going. But it's that like that element,

(40:54):
like you said like that that well, you didn't say the words
risk taking element, but you didsay like, don't even, you know,
pay attention to those questionsbecause the self doubt will kind
of. Yeah, yeah, no, don't overthink
it. And yeah.
And my other, my other big saying is ignore the naysayers.
That's my big motto. They just people are going to
try to talk. Even if you don't talk yourself
out of it, other people will tryto talk you out of it.

(41:17):
And I say you have to want to doit bad enough.
Anything in life, you have to want to make a film bad enough
to see it all the way through. If you want to write a book, you
have to want it bad enough to make it a priority.
You want to open a pie shop. And that's a business thing.
But yeah, I think it's, I think change is good.
I like it when people just go, I'm going to do something

(41:37):
different, you know, and I'm going to try something new and,
and something that maybe is morefulfilling than my corporate
job. Yeah, I love that.
And but by doing it yourself andand shining a spotlight on other
people, I think it gives women the permission to say, Hey, this
is, you know, it's not because there's always going to be
naysayers. There's always going to be

(41:58):
somebody who's like a practical job.
Like why would you leave that.com job?
It's practical. Look at the money you're making.
You can count on it. It's.
I'll never make that much money again, but I don't care.
It's fine. It wasn't about that money
wasn't wasn't making me happy. It was making me fat sitting at
that desk all the time. And I, you know, it's an outdoor
adventure website. And I'm like super athletic.

(42:18):
And then I'm like working so hard that I was like, this is
all backwards. So yeah.
Well, I feel like you in what you're doing is kind of giving
other women permission to step into something new.
Yeah, I. Do want to add, I started this
film at 61 years old. OK, so I am not a spring

(42:39):
chicken. I have, you know, I'm, I'm not
retiring anytime soon. I never retirement's never been
a word in my vocabulary. I my mom's 89.
She's still working. She's in Atlanta on a business
trip right now. You know, she's adorable, So.
And I mean, I'm sure that job iswhat's keeping her so sharp and
alive. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not too
old to make another film after this one.

(43:00):
But, you know, so I'm 63 now. And it's like, yeah, I'm not too
old. And to learn something new, for
one thing, to try something completely different.
And then hello, surprise, actually have success at it, you
know, like, wow, why didn't I did?
Why didn't I make a documentary when I was 40 instead of 60?
Is it you know, but here we are so but.

(43:21):
You gave so many people, you aregiving so many people permission
to kind of think about it for their own lives.
Who gave you yours? Well, I think I've always been
that way. I went to a college that was
like a very hands on the Evergreen State College in
Olympia, WA, and you can sort ofdesign your own curriculum

(43:43):
there. So if I had an idea of something
I wanted to do, I could create my own, you know, I, I would
propose that I would read these books, I would make write these
reports. This is what I would like almost
like a thesis, but undergrad, you know.
So that was a really great school for me because I am a
self starter that way. And also I don't like it when

(44:05):
people, if I have an idea and I want to do something, I don't
like it when people get in my way.
So I'm like, I'll find a way around, you know, and that's it.
Like Hollywood didn't want my π docu series, fine, I'll go make
my own. And now, ha ha ha.
You know, like, I mean, I don't mean it's spiteful like that.
I just like, look, you guys, I was trying to tell you and now

(44:28):
look, it is like taking off. So I'm waiting for them to call
me back and go, oh, sorry. We'll yeah, we'll take it now.
But I don't, I'm like, I don't know that I want that.
I don't want to have to answer to anybody.
So yeah, I don't know. That's just, but that's maybe
just so that's I I've always hada really good support system.
My parents always encouraged us to follow our bliss and all

(44:48):
that. So you know well it.
Sounds like your mom is pretty. Yeah, like much a trailblazer
too. Do you mind if I ask what she
does at 89? So she works for an organization
that it's basically they teach meditation, but it's called
centering prayer and it's through the Catholic Church,
sort of, sort of this doesn't have to be Catholic, but it's
like started by a monk, you know?

(45:11):
So yeah. So she she goes around and she's
a volunteer coordinator now. She used to plan their whole
national conference. And she said she's worked with
them for so many years. She's kind of like that, that
wise elder there now. And and she's on Zoom calls with
people from all over the world every day.

(45:32):
And it's like, who would have guessed, you know?
So yeah. Well, I feel like having a mom
like that would make it so there's not like you weren't
questioning or were you during making Paowa, were you ever
like, it's too late? Like you just said I should have
done it when I was 40. Did you ever?
Yeah. No, no, no.
I never felt it was too late. I was like, I'm going to fit.
It's actually my little thing that I do now.

(45:55):
And it's kind of sounds morbid, but I'm like, if I'm working on
a project and I feel like, you know, so many people are getting
cancer and dying. And I was like, if I had six
months left to live, if I got, if I got a diagnosis right now
and someone said I had six months left to live, I would
finish this film. You know, like that's and I, I
mean, I said that when I was writing my last book.

(46:17):
If I do nothing else before I die, I have to finish this book,
you know? Oh my gosh.
We I am like this too. And I know, but you know what?
That I, I say I'm like a Jack Russell terrier and you, you've
got a terrier. So you can relate, right?
I have like, I have like a terrier personality, willful and
I won't give up. I just won't give it up.
So yeah. But I love how you like frame it

(46:39):
to against like what you've got left, like in terms of what I
actually just was. A sense of urgency, right?
A sense of urgency because a lotof people will put it off.
I'm like, dude, if you want to write that book or do that
project or make that, do it now.Like what are you waiting for?
I, I, I definitely am like a do it now person and I don't even

(47:00):
have a bucket list because I've always done everything I like.
If I want to do it, I go do it. I, I just like, I don't put it
off because I don't know my, youknow, I have my, I was married
and my husband died suddenly andunexpectedly at the age of 43.
So I think that's left a permanent mark on my psyche of
you don't, you cannot take it for granted.

(47:22):
So what are you going to do withthis one precious life, right?
OK, real quick, if you're listening and thinking more
women should be hearing conversations like this, the
best way to support the show is just to follow or subscribe
wherever you are. It really does help it reach
more people. Thanks so much.
OK, back to the show. You know, and, and when you say
it's morbid and I understand because it sounds to other

(47:44):
people when you're like, well, Imight have.
I mean, I've actually done it even with books like I love to
read. And many years ago I read
something that was saying, you know, if you do the math, like
how many books you'll you have left?
And that's when I, I used to never not finish a book.
But then when I read that, I didthe math and I was like, OK, I

(48:07):
really, if I, if I go the longest that I think I'm going
to go, I only have if I read this many books a year, this is
how many books I have. I'm only reading books that have
really good reviews. And I have to, if I like I get
past a certain page, I let it gobecause I'm like, life is short
and I really love books and I'm not going to spend my time
reading books I don't like. Like you're not.

(48:28):
Obligated to finish it. No.
And I know that's such a simple example, but in everything, even
just going away to New York, I was just going, and it was
supposed to be below 0 when I went and I talked to my son and
I, you know, I'm profoundly lazy.
I, I would prefer to stay in my house.
I like to be comfortable. And it was going to be so cold.

(48:48):
I knew I was going to have to wear two pair of pants, 2
shirts, like everything was going to be doubled boots, many
socks. And my son was like, mom, you're
51 years old. He goes, what do you have 40
years left go to New York. And I was like, you're right,
you're absolutely right. Thank you for the perspective.
Like I appreciate that because I, I feel like I see it too.
And I everybody acknowledges that I guess on some level, but

(49:12):
I think some people are way better at being like, I have
plenty of time. I have plenty of time.
For me, I've always felt like a bit of a sense of urgency.
And so I appreciate that and I appreciate that you went and you
did it and it's awesome. So thank you.
You're welcome. So what will pie was like?
Just not just about pie. Obviously you're not going to

(49:33):
leave hungry. You're going to leave it feeling
uplifted and hopeful. What do you most want people,
women who have spent years feeding others to feel when they
watch it? That they're appreciated, you
know, that that what they're doing is giving love and the
world needs more of that. And that's the best thing you

(49:53):
could possibly do with your life, you know, so that they
would be appreciated for. For making that pie, making, you
know, making memories with theirfamilies or their friends and
making the world a better place by just baking a pie.
Yeah, that's. You absolutely.
Because it's funny you're sayingit.
I'm literally like to be appreciated because that's what

(50:13):
you get when you watch it. You you do you actually as just
a mom. I felt appreciate as a mom who's
literally made two pies ever andalso the cheater crust and and I
did make a judgment. Thank you.
I made a pie for Thanksgiving this year that I, I previously
made. That was my other pie.
That one was successful. I don't know what I was

(50:35):
thinking, but I didn't put anything on the bottom of the
pan of the cheater crust. And it was so, I mean, we were
like chiseling it out, but it was delicious.
But it was like a, a fail. As a mom who's not a pie Baker,
I also felt appreciated just theidea of feeding and nurturing as

(50:56):
love. OK, it's never a fail.
It's never a fail. The crust is a little hard.
Just people can eat around it. If you didn't put enough sugar
in it, just put some ice cream on it.
It's never a fail. The fact that you did it is
nobody really cares. You'd be surprised because
there's all these perfectionistsout there that, you know, make
it intimidating for people to want to make a pie because,

(51:16):
well, it doesn't look perfect. It's not supposed to.
It's supposed to be imperfect. It's homemade.
You want it to have your signature on it.
And every pie I make is different.
I, I don't, there's no guaranteeit's going to turn up and nobody
cares. They're just glad you made a
pie. So it's just like, you know,
that's what that guy in the filmsays.
The message is just keep baking.Keep baking.

(51:40):
What So tell me, do you have a favorite pie story that's come
out of let's not say that the the film specifically, because
I'm sure you keep getting asked,but like that's come out of the
conversations you've had during the screenings, their favorite
pie story. And also, what's your favorite
pie? Dad's was banana cream.
I would go back to that screening.

(52:02):
Well, OK, I do have, I have two stories.
First of all, that screening in Newport Beach totally blew my
mind that that all these people showed 250 people showed up, you
know, many of them bringing piesand staying.
And I was like, I didn't expect that in that environment.
So that was a big thing for me. Absolutely.
My very, very first screening was in a town of 200, and it was

(52:24):
actually in Minnesota, not Iowa,because a friend of mine lives
up there and runs an Art Center,and he invited me up and there
were only 22 people at the screening.
It was a very, very cold, Not cold.
What am I saying? It wasn't a cold night, but it
felt like a cold night. It was June.
Well, it was June in northern Minnesota.
Yeah, I guess it was cold. It was actually, it was cold,
come to think of it, for summer.And so we, I did the Q&A

(52:48):
afterward. We didn't have plans to serve
pie. I mean, that was so early on in
my venture and I think we talkedabout it, but it didn't happen.
Like I would have had to go up there a couple days early and
organize a baking thing. And I, I don't know.
But so in the Q&A, this lady says, oh, I have old lady like
90, I don't know, she's in her 80s maybe.

(53:09):
She stands up in the Q&A and shegoes, well, I have two pies
cooling at home right now and rhubarb custard.
She went home and got them and came back and served her pies to
the audience. And so we all got pie afterward.
And it was, that was one of the most amazing things.

(53:31):
And that's from the start. Like the very, very first
screening was like, Oh my God, this woman went home and got her
pies to share. They were still warm.
It was some of the best pie I'veever had.
And my only regret is I had a tiny piece cuz, you know, I
wanted like, I should have had abigger piece.

(53:52):
I just regret. I want another piece of that
pie. I'm still thinking about it.
But yeah, it was so sweet. And somebody else went out and
got ice cream, you know, and it was just like, Oh my God, you
people. And that's the film, you know,
that's like, that's the pie. That's what pie does.
That's what these stories do. And like a lot of people say,
oh, I want, I want to do a pie giveaway like this.

(54:13):
Eat free pie in the film. How do I do that here?
I put them in touch, you know, Oh, I like that program where
they teach teen girls pie makingskills and business skills and
customer service skills, marketing skills, all that.
And how, you know, it's a program.
Can you do you think that we could do that program in our
area? So like, there's a lot of this

(54:33):
kind of ripple effect with the film, which is very exciting for
me to see. Like, very fulfilling to know
that people are really taking something away from it and
wanting to implement something similar in their own community.
It's, it's such a film to have aconversation over π about like

(54:54):
it's, I watched it by myself, which, and I thoroughly enjoyed
it, but I could see it being so meaningful to have these
connections, especially with different generations in and,
you know, and hearing the stories about even even when it
goes out of pie. And you just like I said, like
my mom with these Italian cookies, like, you know, it,

(55:15):
it's the things that we pass on to each other and the things we
get out of nurturing. And I loved it.
So thank you. And and last thing though, what
is your favorite pie? I have so many favorite pies,
but I could say it's kind of seasonal depending, but OK.
OK. Well, in the summer, Peach
crumble is number one. Well, no, spring is strawberry

(55:38):
rhubarb, then Peach crumble. And then in the fall, I would
say, well, I get cravings for pumpkin pie.
I know it's really simple, but just that.
And then an apple, of course. But and then right now it's
winter. So my partner's favorite pie is
French silk pie, which is chocolate with a whipped cream

(56:00):
on top. And it's amazing.
And so yeah, that's Next up on the favorite pie list.
But I always say that Apple is like if I had to choose one, it
would be Apple because that's the one I never get tired of.
Oh man, you're making me want pie.
Yeah. No, it's not the thing.
I mean, I actually have apples here at home, so I I have them

(56:20):
out on the counter sitting in a pie dish ready to make an apple
pie. So you will just.
Go make a pie right now. Possibly if you want.
It will be nothing. You're just going to make a pie.
Yeah, for like, for no reason. You mean like yes?
Yes, it's just going to well. I told my partner I go, I really
should share some of this with his sister-in-law.
She's got her leg in a cast or abrace because she had broke her

(56:42):
kneecap. And and then I haven't seen my
neighbor who lives a mile and a half down.
I haven't seen her for a month. So I'm like, oh, I should take
her a piece. And then I was like, or we could
just eat it ourselves. I don't know.
Sometimes you just need pie. Sometimes it just feels good to
make the pie. And then you never know who
might stop by and hey, we want apiece of pie, you know?

(57:03):
So yeah, I don't know. It's always better to share it.
So I'm sure at least one or two of those pieces will make it out
of the house to somebody else. That's awesome that thank you so
much for being here. I'm going to make sure that in
the show notes, we have everything about where people
can watch Piowa, where it's screening, where they can learn
more about more about you since Piowa isn't just your story and

(57:24):
also get the cookbooks. Thank you.
No, thank you so much for being here.
I really appreciate it. It's.
Fun talking to you. You too.
A huge thanks to Beth Howard. I especially love the way she
talked about following somethingsmall and something creative and
letting it become meaningful without forcing it to be what we
think it's supposed to be. And next week, we're digging

(57:46):
into a different kind of pressure, the expectations
placed on parents and especiallymoms, and how much of what we
think we're supposed to do mightnot actually be serving us or
our kids with Jessica Leahy. In the meantime, if this episode
inspired you to follow your own passion or to bake or eat a pie,
share it with a friend. That's how these conversations
keep going. See you next week on ROAR.

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