April 7, 2026 • 57 mins
What if the version of yourself you've been taught to be...isn't actually you?
In this episode of Roar, Danielle Davies sits down with writer and speaker Sophie Jane Lee for a conversation about something many women experience, but don't always have language for: palatability.
The pressure to be:
- likeable
- agreeable
- easy to receive
And the subtle ways that pressure shapes how women speak, show up, and express themselves.
Danielle and Sophie explore what happens when we start to recognize that conditioning, and what it takes to move beyond it.
Together, they talk about:
🔥 What it means to be "palatable," and how early that starts
🎤 The difference between authenticity and adaptation
🧠 How women are conditioned to soften their voice
🌿 The emotional and professional cost of being agreeable
💥 Why being liked can come at the expense of being heard
📣 The process of unlearning internalized expectations
👑 What it looks like to take up space more fully
⚡ Reclaiming your voice without apology
Sophie's perspective gives language to something many women have felt, but haven't fully named. And once you see it, it's hard to unsee.
🔑 Key Takeaways
Palatability is learned, not innate.
Being likable and being heard are not the same.
Women are often rewarded for softness over clarity.
Unlearning conditioning is an active process.
Your voice doesn't need to be softened to be valid.
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophieturton/
https://linktr.ee/electricpeach
🎧 Related Convos
Visibility with Pamela Redmond
Doing it All with Gifty Enright
💥 Don't Miss a Conversation
🎧Follow & Subscribe on Spotify
📩 Sign up for Danielle’s newsletter
🙋♀️ Want to be on Roar? Learn how to be a guest.
🔗 Connect with The Roar Podcast
#RoarPodcast #SophieJaneLee #WomenAndVoice #Palatability #WomenInLeadership#TakeUpSpace #DanielleDavies
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Women's unpaid labour is a multitrillion dollar industry.
We literally are. Unpaid labour literally holds up
the entire system. That's Sophie Jane Lee, and this
is Roar. Hi, everybody.
(00:20):
It's Danielle Davies, the host of Roar.
I'm really excited today on where I'm joined by Sophie Jane
Lee. She's a journalist, brand
strategist, founder of Electric Peach, but most recently, she's
the author of the upcoming book Beyond Palatable, A manifesto
for unapologetic women, which isobviously perfect for all of us.
Sophie's work sits at the intersection of voice,
(00:40):
visibility and nervous system safety.
She writes about the cost of shrinking ourselves to be
accepted and what happens when women stop performing
palatability and start telling the truth.
Her book isn't just a self help manual, it's a manifesto, a
challenge to the systems that teach women to dilute
themselves, and a toolkit for reclaiming authenticity in a
(01:00):
world that profits from our silence.
Today we're going to be talking about self-expression,
conditioning, leadership, and what it actually means to live
unapologetically. Oh, I have an echo.
Sophie, welcome to ROAR. Thanks so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me.That was really great
introduction. I was like, oh, it sounds so
(01:21):
cool. I think I should just do
introductions because like, I obviously want to talk about the
book a lot because by the time this podcast come out, it comes
out, it'll be available. And will it be available in the
US? Yes.
So you can buy it on all major bookstores and you can, at the
moment you have to ship it over to the US, but you can do that
(01:43):
easily. OK.
And so we're going to talk aboutthat, but I want to just tell
you at the outset that at some point I also want to talk about
your mastermind and the self-expression sessions and be
like, what are you doing across the pond and how do I get there?
Yes, OK. Yes, OK.
We'll talk about. That OK, so first of all, the
book you're talking, I love thatyou use the word palatable
(02:06):
because it's just exactly right.Like our just even before we hit
record, I was like, sorry if I'mtoo much and you reassured me
there is no too much. We're kicking that to the curb.
So when we talk about the word palatable, what behaviors are we
talking about? What is a good woman look like
culturally? It looks like apologizing for
yourself and bringing as you didthis incredible, welcoming,
(02:29):
beautiful energy and still feeling like, oh, no, maybe I
went too far. Presumably because at some point
somebody has said, Danielle, calm down or maybe just tone it
down a bit, whatever that might be, which is so common.
I've worked with hundreds of women with that exact same
experience and story. And it can also look like being
(02:54):
really quiet. So you have something that you
want to say, but holding back and not wanting to say the thing
that that your idea, for example, not wanting to rock the
boat, saying yes when you mean no, which we all have the
experience of so many times. It can look like constant
servitude and the idea that you need to be everything to
(03:18):
everybody all the time. And usually when you get into
your midlife, you realise how completely burnt out you are
because you've been spinning 500different plates and nobody's
giving you any energy back again.
It can look like pretending thatyou love the PTA.
I don't know if you have PTA in the US, but it's the Parent
(03:38):
Teacher Association. Yeah, Yeah.
So it's like, it looks like saying, yes, that you'll do the
talk at the PTA this evening when you actually really hate
all of the mums there and you don't want to be spending your
evening doing that. It's it's kind of this, this
ingrained expectation that womenhave to perform in every element
(04:05):
of our lives. So we're performing what it
looks like to be the perfect wife or the perfect mother or
the bad ass boss bitch or the like, whatever it might be, and
we just completely disconnect from the truth of who we
actually are. I have a question.
So, you know, I've, I've been talking to some, I am in
(04:26):
midlife. So I've been talking, of course,
I do a lot of research about women in midlife because it
benefits myself. But one of the things you know,
is obviously like stepping back from that and reclaiming that
and, and you know, hopefully raising the next generation,
which I think I am successfully doing.
I must say my daughter is, does not, you know, she's like, no,
no, no, these are my boundaries and I absolutely will not do
(04:48):
that. And that's awesome for me.
I'm unlearning that kind of behavior, right?
Like, and, and, but sometimes I'm like, Oh my God, will I
never do anything again? Because it turns out because I'm
like, I don't want to do any of those things, you know?
So like, is there, do you advisewomen or even in your book, are
(05:09):
you like, Hey, there are some things we have to do and what
are they like? Where do you say, OK, I have to
show up for this school thing even though I absolutely hate it
and I don't want to hang out with these moms and I'm not
going for drinks afterwards? Or you just say absolutely not
like I'm not doing it. Is there a point?
(05:30):
Or do you just always say no? Because right now I'm like
saying no to everything. And I think that's I'm here for
that. That's great.
I think in reality though, it's really unrealistic.
And it's I talk in the book a lot about all of these Tri
slogans that we hear. Like if it's not a fuck yes,
it's a fuck no. I'm guessing I can swear.
(05:51):
Yeah, yes, absolutely. OK.
And it's like, if it's not a fuck yes, it's a fuck no like
that. No, that's not like it's never
going to be a fuck yes for me togo and do my weekly shop like
it's it's not, but it has to happen.
I'm like when I go to the dentist, I'm never like, fuck
yes, I'm going to the dentist. I hate it.
(06:12):
But it's an obligation that. Yes, OK, sorry, yeah.
It's an obligation to yourself and like in the same like my
stepson, my stepson's mom lives like a 1 1/2 hour round trip
with traffic. It's never going to be a fuck
yes for me to go and get him andtake him back.
But we do it because we it's thepayoff for that.
(06:33):
So it might be you absolutely hate the PTA, but you want to
show up for your kid and you want to be a present mom and you
want and you really want to be part of influencing the school
system in whatever way. So then it's a spectrum of
discernment of, OK, so the experience right now is really
not what I want, but the reason I'm doing it is good enough and
(06:55):
big enough and bigger than me and my needs to do it to make it
worth it. And, and I think that's kind of
where really more than anything,I want people to, to start to
tune into the truth of themselves.
If it's an absolute fuck no, then I think we need to listen
to that. If it's like a visceral and
(07:16):
you'll know it because your bodywill respond, you'll start to
feel anxious, you'll start to like tense up.
If you force yourself to do things when you feel like that,
then that can be when you start to experience other challenges
related to physical anxiety. But if it's just like, I really
can't be bothered, but I'm doingit for a bigger reason, then
(07:37):
it's the discernment piece of OK, well, is this really more
about why I'm doing it and what I'm showing up for?
And I think that's a really key part because while I really
believe in US reclaiming our autonomy and our voice and our
right to say no when we mean no,I also think that there can be
(07:59):
this weird therapisation of these are my boundaries and I'm
protecting my peace that can actually cause harm to other
people. So there is again, that
discernment piece in each situation where you look at the
nuance of the full picture and use that to make a informed
autonomous decision. And that's a really important
(08:22):
point, right? Because what we do usually is we
just say yes on rote or we just go through the motions because
we think that's what we have to do.
And that's what I'm trying to encourage us to move away from.
I love that, but I and I especially love how you do say
to use discernment because again, like even personally or
what I watch, you know, for my daughter who's 17.
(08:43):
So obviously, you know, there's lots of feelings and emotions
behind like what you will and will not do.
It is interesting because, because I think that's the part
that's missing from so much of the dialogue.
Like, yeah, of course, you know,my husband's like, so because
there's a lot of talk like midlife people are like
unhappily married because they've fallen into these
(09:04):
systems. And he's like, so do we have to
get divorced? Like, no, no, no.
It's like, I like you still. I'm like, that's good.
Like you got to find that middleground that works for you.
And I, I think like exposure to the fact that we can say no and
that we have been conditioned inthis way is great.
But what you're saying is reallyhits the mark.
(09:25):
It's sustainable. Yeah.
And it's not about blowing your whole life up, because I
actually think that what holds alot of women back from doing
this work is the fear that if they start unpicking and start
examining what's going on, that suddenly they're going to be met
with the truth of this huge thing.
(09:45):
That's a huge thing to carry. And then they're going to have
to change their entire life, which is unrealistic for a lot
of people. It's terrifying for a lot of
people, actually. It's more about the incremental
steps of becoming more aware of who you are and the needs that
you have as you as a precious being, and making choices for
(10:08):
your own life based on your own needs, rather than constantly
abandoning yourself and prioritizing everybody else's
needs instead. Quick pause because if you're
listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind
of person I write for. I send out a sub stack
newsletter where I go a little deeper, more personal stories,
behind the scenes thoughts, and honestly, some of the things we
(10:30):
don't always say out loud here. If you want to stay connected
between episodes, you can find it at Roar with
danielledavies.substack.com. I'd love to have you there.
And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast, back to the
the systemic issue of palatability.
Can you, I mean, I, I think I know the answer, but I'd love to
(10:50):
hear your words describing it. Who benefits from this training
of women's palatability? If we look at what the outcome
of that is, so first of all, women's unpaid labour is a multi
trillion dollar industry. We literally, our unpaid labour
literally holds up the entire system, not just in the UK, not
(11:14):
just in the US, if you look at it as a global issue.
So if we woke up and we were like, do you know what?
Actually, I'm not going to do all of this unpaid labour, thank
you. The world would literally stop
operating because it relies on us to be in servitude.
That's number one. Number two, the industries that
(11:35):
profit directly profit from women's insecurities.
We've got the beauty industry, the Wellness industry, the
fashion industry, the Pharmaceutical industry,
actually, because there's a hugemarket for selling drugs to
women who are completely burnt out and completely overwhelmed
to help them calm down. Like Valium as mother's little
(11:57):
helper. The alcohol.
I'm like just laughing internally because it's just,
it's like, so when you say it and you say it so well, but when
you put it all out, it's like sopreposterous.
But keep going, keep going. I mean, yes, because we're all
just fed antidepressants and anti anxiety medications because
(12:18):
of course we're exhausted and ofcourse we're.
Yeah. Well, autoimmune disorders,
which have been directly linked to repressed emotion, are
overwhelmingly impact women, andburnout overwhelmingly impacts
women. We have this mass exodus from
the workplace, which is being positioned as a ambition gap,
(12:42):
like it's just ridiculous. But then again, to go back to
the industries that profit from women, we've sort of got the
Pharmaceutical industry. We've got the fact that women
account for, but I think it's by20-30 they predict that women
will account for 96% of household spending.
So women literally the system relies on us to operate as the
(13:07):
commodity of it. And also we're the ones that are
buying it. So we have both the product and
the buyer. And when you really start to
understand that if we, if you orI or any of us woke up tomorrow
and we were like, I don't need any of this stuff to be happy.
I don't need this new beauty regime.
(13:27):
I don't need to look like how I've been told I need to look.
None of that stuff. I actually just need connection
and rest and community and nature.
Like all of these things that are fundamental to human
happiness, our literal biological system has been set
(13:48):
up for it. And then we just stopped buying
into the system literally physically like money buying the
system. Well then the entire system
would collapse. Which is the reason why there is
a backlash every single time that there is any kind of female
empowerment movement because they know that we there is multi
(14:08):
trillion dollar industries builton the back of women's
insecurity and they have engineered it.
So as soon as they start to see women being like, actually, I
don't need this. And actually whatever it might
be, there will always be a backlash to that.
And we see that all the time. And it makes me kind of smile
when I see the rise of misogyny in a really weird way, because I
(14:31):
think they must be terrified. If they're going so far down
this weird misogynistic twisty root, then they must be
terrified. We must be gaining power because
otherwise they wouldn't be bothering.
Do you feel like it's purposefulor like almost habitual on that
end as well? Do you know what I mean?
(14:52):
Like we're so ingrained that it's some well, OK, so yesterday
I was in Manhattan and when we woke up in the morning, somebody
turned a television on and therewas this old movie.
And of course, I get, I'm like, can't have something on in the
background. I'm like, who?
Like, that's it. I'm.
It's like I'm in a trance. But it was called Adam's Rib.
And it's from 1939. It's with Katharine Hepburn and
(15:13):
Spencer Tracy, And in it they'reboth lawyers.
I mean, this is 1939. It's almost 100 years ago.
They're both lawyers. And it's a husband versus a wife
case and she's representing a woman who shot her husband after
he basically abused her. And it's sort of, I mean, it's
sort of comedic the way they're playing it.
(15:35):
I mean, it is 1939. But interestingly, it wasn't
dated like like the themes were all the same.
And I'm like, so it almost seemslike, you know, there's this
movement for women and then misogyny shows its head and
we're back down. And then there's this movement.
And I'm just wondering from whatyou've done in your research and
(15:55):
talking to people, do you feel like it's purposeful or do you
feel like it's partially the their own internal patterns?
I think that it's a bit of both that originally it was certainly
purposeful. There was the, if you look at,
(16:17):
and in my book, I do the big, the first part of my book is all
looking at the history, the literature, the stories that
have been created, the narratives woven throughout the
last. Well, I look at right, right
back at the beginning of where the patriarchy was supposedly
created and what that means and why that is and how interwoven
(16:38):
now patriarchy, capitalism and white supremacy are as a system
of oppression. And a lot of that comes from the
stories that were told, which onthe one hand is that men were
the ones that told the stories. So there, there was only really
one narrative and whenever womenwere in part of that narrative,
they were being told through thelens of the, the male lens
(17:01):
anyway. But then equally there is
evidence all the way back to theGreek times of women having no
voice and, and how dangerous it was for a woman to have a voice.
And we've seen throughout history what happens when women
have a voice or when women connect to their innate power,
IE our cycles, the cycles of nature are ability to use nature
(17:25):
for medicinal purposes. All of these things contributed
to the witch trials. And over and over and over and
over again, over thousands of years, women have been shown
not, not even conditioned. It's evidence.
This is what happens if a woman is seen.
This is what happens if a woman is heard.
It is unsafe. We have that programming within
(17:48):
our biology and within the narratives that we continue to
be fed. And in the last 100 years,
things have actually changed at an alarming rate in so, so many
ways, in a way that's never, ever happened before.
And we're kind of on this like Jolty roller coaster, Like it's
(18:08):
it's been less than 50 years since women were allowed to have
a mortgage on their own, but not, sorry, not even a yeah, a
mortgage. It's been 50 years since women
and not that much longer than that since they were allowed to
have a bank account. Of course, then we've got the
vote. In the world today, there's
still a lot of countries where none of those things are
available to women, where women are still killed for being seen
(18:32):
and having a voice. And so I, I do think that some
of it is conditioning and that women ourselves are also
responsible for it. Because I know actually,
honestly, as many, if not more misogynistic women than I do
misogynistic men. So we can talk about that if you
(18:52):
want. A lot of.
Feelings about that. And I think that the systems of
patriarchal oppression impact men as much, just in different
ways as they impact women because they're so outdated.
We're looking at 12,000 years. It's, we live in a very weird
(19:14):
time where roles are really distorted and nobody really
knows what they're supposed to be doing and it causes confusion
and anger and we're not always very good at having good
communication through that. So we blame each other.
But equally, I do 100% believe that the people who are in power
know exactly what they're doing,and I absolutely believe that
(19:36):
they are purposefully creating polarisation and civil unrest to
distract from the real problem, which is completely insane
capitalism and the oppressive systems that are actually
(19:56):
impacting like 99% of us and the1% who are benefiting from that.
Oh, you know, it is really too bad that you're ever going to
have to hang up because I could have you on the phone all day,
all day, all day. I have, I have so much to say,
but I, I'm, I'm going to try to not, I want to go back to the
one thing you said that it's also women who are, you know, I
(20:18):
look at it as you're holding down other women, right?
I mean, if there are women who are part of this patriarchy, who
are the ones shushing you? And in fact, most of the
shushing that's been done in my life has been from other women
because we are like you said, it's, it's almost like a fear
thing. So you can't have one of you,
(20:39):
you know, speaking out. We have to kind of stay together
and like be quiet. Can you talk about this?
And like the idea also of almostself abandonment so that there's
belonging. Yeah, I think we have been
conditioned to believe that fitting in equals belonging.
(21:01):
Fitting in does not equal belonging.
I'm sure we've all had those experiences where we're
technically part of the tribe, but we feel so lonely and so
disconnected and so fractured within ourselves.
Self abandoned, fitting in, trying to fit in will only ever
lead to self abandonment. But we have, many of us have
been taught, especially by if, if we have boomer parents who
(21:26):
have grown up in a really weird time because they're they've,
they've been brought up by parents who were either in the
war or whose parents were probably their, his parents were
in the First World War. And that's like insanely
different time to what we have today.
And they were the first ones as women that were taught that they
(21:47):
could have it all and that they could have a career and that
they could go out while at the same time having these really
traditional roles and expectations drilled into them
by their parents. It's like this cognitive
dissonance of how you're supposed to be as a woman.
So our generation have been taught on the one hand you've
got to be acceptable and you've got to be palatable, but then at
(22:08):
the other time you also have to be exceptional and you have to
be achiever and you have to be an achiever.
And you can't just be a stay at home mother because that's a
waste of a life and all of thesethings.
And that is a that is a completelike these two things can't
exist together. You cannot be acceptable and
exceptional. The two things cancel one
(22:29):
another out because acceptable is showing the line, doing what
everybody else does, doing what people expect of you.
Exceptional by its very nature is being one-of-a-kind shining.
So it like, of course, we're in this confused, like what the
hell? And I think women, because we've
been conditioned to believe we have to fix everything and have
(22:52):
all of the answers and have it all put together, that cognitive
dissonance creates so real fracture within us that we don't
know how to communicate effectively.
And so then it plays out as you've broken the social
contract. You behaving in that way is
unacceptable to the social contract and therefore holding a
(23:13):
mirror up against me and what I'm supposed to be doing.
And so I'm going to judge you for it and project all of my
fears and insecurities onto you and make you pull you down a peg
or two in response to that. Oh my God, I cannot wait to get
your book. I can't wait when you another
thing you talk about too, is that it this isn't just this
(23:35):
isn't just happening, it's happening internally in our
body. So it's not just like a mindset
habit, like I will do these things.
It's it's a physical you're you're feeling, you're not just
thinking yourself small. Your body has learned to kind of
cower, your body has learned to do these things.
What is shrinking actually feel like in the body and why was it
(23:55):
important to you? I know there's like somatic
practices in your work. Why was that important to you?
How did you even kind of conceptualize this?
Sorry, that's like 3 questions at the same time, OK.
Well, they all link together. So like the the experience of
shrinking actually is so much more physical than it is
(24:17):
psychological. Like of course we might
experience it as loneliness or fear or sadness or whatever kind
of emotion comes up. But physically it feels like
like having someone putting weight again on your chest, like
the feeling of being trapped andlike your whole body is kind of
(24:39):
clenching so tightly. And we might say that that's
anxiety and women are so prone to anxiety, but actually this is
your body like feeling constantly under threat because
we're social creatures, we are conditioned, biologically
conditioned to not be kicked outof the tribe.
(25:03):
We it's dangerous for our safetyto be kicked out of the tribe.
So when we have that feeling of being ostracized or what have
you, or the fear of that it, it occurs to us as a, as a physical
threat. But then the other thing that I
find really interesting is wherewe have our response to that.
(25:24):
So fight, flight, freeze. And then there's the phone
response, which people refer to as people pleasing, which is
also now demonised. I'm recovering people pleaser
and is really interesting again,because there's an expectation
of you to sacrifice yourself foreveryone else.
But if you're a people pleaser, that's a really bad thing.
(25:45):
And people pleasing is just yourbody's response to dysregulated
nervous system. And so we are taught from a
really young age the way to keepthe peace is just to do what
everyone, everyone asks us to do.
The way to make sure that you'resafe is just to say yes when you
really mean no. And all of those things are
people pleasing, and you can't just think your way out of that
(26:07):
because it's been ingrained intoyou since you're so young.
It's a safety mechanism. It's literally what your body
has understood to stay alive. It doesn't know the difference
between dying, potentially dying, and having someone be
annoyed with you. It registers them as the same
thing. So you're having this constant
(26:28):
state of like, who? And it feels so overwhelming
because your body's reading it like an actual physical threat.
And I wish people understood that more because it's become so
thrown around now and demonized.And it's so unfair because we
live in a society that conditions us into it to just
(26:50):
expect that you're going to be able to think your way out of
it. Like, if that worked, my God,
Like how? How amazing would it be if we
could just all think our way outof neuroses like you can't think
your way out of a newer seats? No, you can't, despite many,
many years of trying. It's interesting too, because I
feel like, you know, even sometimes some of one of the
(27:12):
things that I keep reading aboutdifferent just it just keeps
coming up. It's not necessarily because I'm
I'm of course everything you're saying I'm relating to like
people that I know or this or that and I'm and making
everything personal. But my sister has always been
like I'm guilty of being such a people pleaser And and she is,
I'm more guilty of and guilty. See.
Look at us. I'm more on it.
(27:33):
I am more someone who is negotiating the peace of the
people at the table and like conversations, but how you find
yourself in these roles and you're just locked in?
And that's still, that's still aphone response because you're
trying to manage the emotional state of the people around you.
(27:53):
Like it comes from the same thing.
It's just a different manifestation of that thing.
And you asked me why somatics. So I spent an awful long time
after many, many, many, many years of self abuse and
addiction, doing every kind of therapy you could possibly
imagine. And I found that talk therapy
(28:13):
did not work for me at all because it just re traumatized.
I couldn't think my way out of my crazy it's.
Like thinking your way out of it, right?
Like I just it like all I I started to intellectize my
crazy. I had like the language to
excuse myself from my crazy, butI couldn't shift it and because
(28:35):
it was rooted in my body. So when I discovered somatics,
which is all about connecting tothe body, understanding how the
nervous system works, understanding how to regulate
yourself, and also knowing that whatever you're experiencing is
a really normal reaction. Because when we psychoanalyze
ourselves, we make ourselves wrong.
(28:55):
We're like, I shouldn't be a people pleaser.
I should try harder. I even like things like I'm
working hard. I'm not working so hard.
Yeah, like the shoulds, the shoulds, like I should, I
should. It's like it's such an
obligation. It makes you just start off at a
negative. Yeah.
And when we realized that actually we live in a completely
(29:15):
batshit crazy world that is not designed for the way that our
systems, our physical systems and our social systems were
supposed to operate, we are in every single way operating
against what our biology is supposed to be operating.
Of course we feel like this. Of course we're behaving like
this. And you start to give yourself
(29:36):
some more grace. And then those intrusive
thoughts, which I had real challenges with, can start to
get quieter because it's not, oh, it's no longer me that's
default like a defunct. I'm not defunct.
I'm not broken. The system is defunct and
broken, though. How do I navigate that with as
much care and as much grace for myself and others as possible?
(30:01):
The first thing to do is to regulate my nervous system
because nobody can function properly when they're in that
heightened dysregulated state because you're just cortisol.
You're just living on cortisol all the time.
And it not only is it terrible for your health, but it's
terrible for your happiness, foryour interrelational dynamics,
your ability to focus all of these things.
(30:23):
So when I realized that, and I did my own process with that, I
then trained as a semantics coach so that I could bring that
into my work because I work a lot with women who want to use
their voice and become more visible.
And I realized again, the idea of like, just get visible is
rubbish. Because if you haven't got a
nerve, a regulated nervous system, then you will find a way
(30:45):
to sabotage yourself. Or someone will come and say
something horrible because people do, and it will throw you
off and you'll go back into hiding again.
And actually, that regulated state is so essential for being
able to be sustainably visible and well resourced at the same
time. I love your process of this and
(31:09):
I love how you came to it when you you know, based on your own
experience and obviously becoming less palatable,
although I find you to be quite palatable to me, yes.
Like, did becoming more visible cost you anything personally or
surprise you in ways you didn't expect?
(31:29):
It cost me quite a lot of friendships over the last couple
of years, particularly last year.
I had quite a few of who I considered to be really close
friends break up with me in verydramatic, very upsetting ways.
And my first thought when multiple things happen and I'm
(31:50):
the common denominator is to think what I must be the problem
because I'm the one that's therefor all of these different
things. And I think probably it's true
actually that I was the, I was that common denominator.
And really it was because in thepast I used to, I used to have a
bit of a saviour complex. And so my friendships were built
(32:10):
around me being like, I can saveyou, I can be there for you.
And the more that I grew into who I am, the less I felt the
need to do that. And I was like, it's not my
place to fix you. It's not my place to run in and
save you when stuff happens for you.
And I think that created a real tension in those relationships
(32:31):
that relied on that dynamic fromme.
And they then mistook my new boundaries for suddenly thinking
I was better than them or, or something like that.
They created a whole story around that, and that was really
painful. But I also expected it because
when you start to change and youstart to grow into yourself, the
(32:54):
people who were your people pleasing to please are no longer
pleased. And then they start, then they
start projecting all of their own shit that they're not
dealing with themselves back on to you.
So it does happen, though. I mean like this thing that we
fear, you know, being left by a friend or a spouse or a child or
(33:19):
your neighbor. It does happen.
Like being yourself can be scary, right?
There are people who what? Why is it still worth it?
Well, first of all, I would say that honestly, it's not that it
can happen, it's that it will happen.
You will find that when you're, especially if you've been
pretending really, really a lot and you're allowing yourself to
(33:42):
shed these layers and suddenly you're being your true self will
feel really confronting to the people who are used to you being
a different way. That's normal.
There is a whole chapter in my book called Navigating other
people, which is because this islike this is, this is definitely
going to happen. And a lot of people who I work
(34:03):
with hold themselves back because they don't want to have
to deal with other people no longer liking them or judging
them or whatever it might be. And I find that really sad
because the number one regret ofthe dying is living life to
somebody else's expectations. So at the end of it all, when
(34:23):
you strip it all back and nothing else matters, the number
one thing that people regret is that they didn't live their own
lives and nothing, nothing. No Sandra from down the road
talking about you behind your back, no, your mum being put off
that you're no longer doing all the things that you were doing
(34:43):
that she was relying on. Like no thing, no other person
is worth you getting to the end of your life and looking back
with that level of regret. You're so good, OK, for thank
you, thank you. And I and I couldn't agree with
you more. But I do think like there is
(35:04):
and, and I guess women can expect, you know, or, or anybody
who's shedding something that's not authentic or speaking up for
the first time. And they've maybe not done it
before or they've, they've seemed to go along to get along
and, and finally, it's too much.And I think that that's
happening a lot, by the way, right now politically.
I mean, it's been happening, butit's like really, really, really
(35:25):
happening right now in the US And if anybody still likes us
outside the US, there's. A lot of great things about the
US, the people. There's a lot of.
Great, you have some issues. Yeah, so it's like, but and so
there's so much infighting too, because so many people for so
long, you know, I mean, the two rules you grew up with, if you
(35:47):
have boomer parents are you don't talk about politics and
you don't talk about religion. Those are the 2 things and it's.
Like you're not allowed to talk about money either, but that
might be a British thing. Actually, I think Americans love
talking about money. We talk about money a little bit
more, but maybe we just don't even talk about how we don't
talk about money. You know, there is a lot of talk
about money and how much we haveor don't or don't sadly.
(36:10):
But but now like, you know, it'sgotten to the point in so many
people from what I would like tosay, my side of the of the aisle
or my side of the world view aresaying, you know, you must talk
about politics because everything is political.
So there's really no way to separate this there.
Every single thing from where the meat is placed at the
(36:33):
grocery store to where you get your coffee.
Everything's food related for meright now, but it's all
political. So you of course you're talking
about it, but so there are so many people who for the longest
time have not said a word. They've literally gone on and
now they're saying something andpeople are like, whoa, I don't,
you know, I used to like you when you weren't like this.
And it's so it can't, it doesn'tcan be, you're right.
(36:57):
It is going to happen even if it's super small and it's going
to hurt like that's the other part.
It it is going to hurt like. It's going to hurt, yeah.
But you can come through on the other end.
Yeah, and that's, that's what I'm taking away.
Yeah. And that's why having tools and
(37:18):
the the book is is really a workbook.
Every chapter has exercises thatbuild on one another so that
when we get to the part where sobut the first chapter is going
to make you so angry and wake you up so much to how insane the
whole situation is and hopefullygive you empathy for your own
(37:41):
ways that you have abandoned yourself and also others.
Because again, we talked about internalized misogyny in women.
That's also conditioning. It's not to say women are bad
and even those who've done some nasty thing, I've been one of
those nasty people who've tried to pull other people down
because of my insecurities. I think we we've all been there.
At some point, you start to havemore grace with yourself and
(38:02):
more compassion. By the time it gets to the part
of now actually taking some action and like really releasing
your true self, you're more resourced to do that.
And I think that resourcing yourself and again, going back
to the nervous system, regulating that, being prepared
for the fact that somebody mightnot like it, but that doesn't
(38:24):
mean that's your problem. And it doesn't even mean that
they don't like you even in the moment that it might feel like
they don't like you because they're having a real extreme
reaction to something. It always says something much,
much more about them than it does about you.
And when you start to understandthat I'm not responsible for
other people's emotions and reactions, but I am responsible
(38:46):
for how I choose to move throughthe world.
And especially in the context ofthings like religion.
Like, again, would you rather just be silent and watch all of
the horrors that are happening in the world and not be somebody
who uses their one precious lifefor that?
Just because you're worried thatUncle Fred will think that
(39:07):
you've become too political and it's not, it's not acceptable
behavior. Or would you rather learn how to
galvanized and rally and use your voice and use your beliefs
for good? Like that's, that's a that's a
big thing for in the work that Ido is how do we use our voices
as a chorus to come together to make a difference?
(39:28):
Because we really need to now that the world needs women
particularly to wake up. Stop behaving batshit crazy and
voting for people who are like actual frigging sex offenders
And like I'm sorry, I shouldn't have got.
I mean, we're laughing because it's so absurd.
I actually just asked someone yesterday was like, is there
(39:49):
still a like, you know, the onion?
I'm like, is there still the onion?
Because what do they have? There's no need there anymore.
Everything is the onion. I know.
And, and again, I, I, I think it's really important with
politics because it, it can SAP.There's so much nuance.
There's like it's like this. Right and wrong, good and bad in
(40:11):
the general public is to me not very helpful because again, it's
infighting when nobody, nobody, nobody that you come to in the
street is the problem. The problem is the people who
are causing all of this issues and they are manipulating
people. And some people can see that and
(40:31):
some people cannot see that. But that is what's happening.
And I really, really believe that the only way that we can
actually solve this is to stop blaming one another and start
coming together to even in our differences, even in our, I
don't actually agree with what you believe about this, but I
can see the humanity in you. Let's come together, let's share
(40:52):
our stories and create a new world that's actually going to
work for everybody. Because let's be honest, this
isn't working for anybody. Exactly.
They're they're doing just fine.They don't need your book, but
everybody else does because and and you know, even to have that
conversation to say we're I didn't just raise my flag and
(41:12):
say, now I believe this. So you're wrong.
It's not it's now what do you dowith that?
And and say, like, how can you come together and how can you
communicate? And I think you really do have
to have these resources that you're providing to kind of do
that, that to be introspective enough to be able to be
(41:34):
yourself, you know what I mean? To have those because those are
really vulnerable conversations.And a lot of people, you know,
they're good at the fight. Like, you know, it's almost like
a little performative. Like I'm here now, I'm, I can
speak up and it's the fight, butthere's the next step.
It's not supposed to just you have to get there.
And I think that that's something that, I mean, from the
(41:55):
sounds of it, that's what beyondpalatable will help people do in
the future. So good timing.
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, it definitely will help
you to come home to yourself andto navigate tricky dynamics
better to find your own truth aswell.
(42:16):
Because imagine if you've spent so long pretending that you're
fine about something that actually deep down is really,
really not fine for you. How lonely you would feel in
those situations. And like, yes, you might have to
lose a few people along the way,but then you, what more can you,
what more can you gain? Who could you meet?
If you're being true to yourself, if you're shining your
(42:39):
light fully, other people can find you.
And and that can bring a whole nother opportunity in your life.
And I will always have an undercurrent motivation because
I believe so strongly that thereis no problem that can't be
resolved through effective communication, that we should be
using our voices. And I will should on this.
I do believe we should be using our voices because we have got
(43:03):
the freedom and privilege as women in the West today and a
lot of women in the world do not.
I think we absolutely should be using our voices for justice and
equality. And I do not think it's
controversial to say that you stand for justice and equality
and it's become an insane world that we live in that that is
seen as some kind of political controversial thing to say.
(43:26):
And I do believe that we have a responsibility to do that.
And that's one part of it. But you also have a
responsibility to yourself to betrue to yourself.
And then you can live in in a joyful and aligned way.
And it doesn't mean you have to blow up your marriage, it it
just means taking the steps to find alignment in a way that's
(43:48):
true to you. Absolutely.
I'm I'm really excited about this, but you're you're bringing
me back to the very first thing that I said, which are what are
some of the other ways that people can work work with you
and wait, hold on. I have it written down.
So I'm going to look the self-expression sessions and the
mastermind. Can we?
I know you've got to go soon, but can you touch base on what
(44:08):
each of those are and how peoplecan access you?
Sure. So the self-expression sessions
are live events that I run throughout the UK.
We just had one in Bristol and they were created from belief
that everything is more joyful when we're true to ourselves.
(44:29):
And also that business sucks sometimes because there's so
much bullshit. I'm really really, I'm really,
really sick of this whole 10X your income, 6 figure boss bitch
culture that I see and that I, Ireally think it, it damages
people so much because we believe we need to look and be a
(44:50):
certain way to be successful. And I'm living proof that that
is not true. So I see it as kind of like like
a variety show of weird and wonderful creative ways to
connect with yourself. And it depends on the city that
the city kind of influences how I choose to shape the event.
(45:10):
But we always have lots of audience participation and
creativity, always have some level of poetry in there,
usually some singing and talks around.
From people who have spent a long time believing that they
were a weirdo and that they could never make anything of
their lives to actually the mostshining beacons of amazing,
(45:32):
fabulousness that you've ever met.
And how they did it and what that means for them, their
business, their lives. So it's really opportunity for
people to get creative, explore and experiment and be inspired
to to be who they are really is my kind of one thing that I hope
people get from it. OK, real quick, if you're
(45:55):
listening and thinking more women should be hearing
conversations like this, the best way to support the show is
just to follow or subscribe wherever you are.
It really does help it reach more people.
Thanks so much. OK, back to the show.
I know you're going to do a booktour.
You're doing a book tour. Is that going to be in the US at
all? Well, the problem is is that I'm
boycotting the US on account of your president.
(46:17):
That is, that is a problem. That is a problem.
I have nothing. I did.
OK, go ahead. But I to be I probably, I do
believe it's really, it's reallyneeded and that the US is
absolutely the perfect place forit.
And I've got so many people I love very dearly over over on
(46:38):
your side of the world. So never say never.
Right now it's kind of shady. I.
Understand. Never I.
Understand and well, in your book tour, at least in the UK.
So they're but they're gonna be separate.
It's obviously you're not. I was like, if you come to the
US, you can, you know, back-to-back it do like the,
the, the, the sessions and the book tour and all this stuff.
(47:00):
But I'm kind of doing that in the UK, so I'm doing a lot of.
So I'm doing quite a few of themin bookshop.
So that'll be more like your average kind of so boring, but
it will be more like what you'd expect from a book tour.
And then I'm doing some that aresessions that are more
outlandish with burlesque and music and protest.
One of them is going to be like a big protest where we make all
(47:20):
of our own signs and have a photo shoot.
And so I've I've got quite a lotof work to do.
So much fun though, so much fun.So it's like an empowering
event, it sounds like. Yeah, they are.
Really, really. Every time I do them I I am
reminded of why they're important and actually what I
(47:41):
was planning to do because I'm just one person and I'll be
going on maternity leave in Julyanyway.
So exciting. I was actually planning to turn
self-expression sessions into a community initiative where I
create all of the assets and train people on the format, but
give it to people in different communities to run their own
(48:04):
with some quality assurance check insurance.
Because it's for me, it's not like I don't need to be the one
that owns it. I just think it's a really
important model and concept thatI'd love to see all over the
world. So maybe you could run a
self-expression session for me, Danielle.
And I'm, I'm stuck here anyway in the US So yeah, I mean, I
(48:24):
don't mean stuck. I don't mean stuck, but you
know, I mean, in some ways I mean stuck.
But I'm here anyway, so there's no boycotting myself.
And that sounds great. And I always love is it like a
one day event? Is it a couple hours?
Is it multi day? It depends.
So most of the ones I've done have been evenings.
So 6 till 9, I did one that was a full day event, which was more
(48:47):
like a retreat day around the theme of taking up space, which
was beautiful. And but the evening ones are
easier to do. And I think those would be the
ones that I would send out on little missions around and
about. Yeah.
So that would be really phenomenal.
If you if you wanted to give that a test drive with me, we
will. Have to talk again.
(49:07):
I would love to try that becausethat's just very much up my
alley. But also, you have a mastermind
and now are you still going to have this?
Yes. So the mastermind is currently
running. I won't be taking any more into
it until next year, but it runs over a year.
(49:27):
It's all about voice and visibility.
And because my my background is in brand, so I also run an
agency that works with SMEs fromnon profit organisations to help
them with their storytelling. So I kind of take all of that
big business experience and thenhelp founders to build their
(49:48):
business brand, and I don't likethe term, but personal brand and
get themselves seen. And we do a lot of public
speaking training and kitchen training.
And how do you get yourself out there beyond social media?
So that's the brilliant mastermind.
And then I also run a program called She's Electric, which is
(50:11):
specifically public speaking, which I will be running again in
April through to June. Oh my gosh, you are so busy.
You are doing a million things. All of them are.
And I also, I love the names of them all like she's electric,
electric beach, unpalatable. They're just they're very much
(50:31):
they're very much in line with my way of thinking.
So it's all very palatable to me.
I include after, you know, when this all comes out, I'll include
all of this in the show notes. Is there anything else that you
want to share for women like whomaybe just today are feeling
very much very palatable and notloving that feeling?
(50:55):
Is there one thing all of them today besides obviously get your
book, that would even prompt them to feel a little bit better
in their skin? There is a quote that I have in
my book that I have on my desk, which is I wish I could show you
when you are lonely or in darkness, the astonishing light
(51:18):
of your own being. And I wish that women could see
how phenomenally powerful they are just by being them.
And that none of those expectations, those desires that
(51:38):
you need to be a certain way, whether that's how you look or
how you're supposed to be, none of that actually matters.
And none of that is real or true.
And if we were able to see ourselves in the way that other
people see us, or if we were able to see ourselves in the way
that we truly are, then it wouldbe, there would be absolutely
(52:01):
nothing that would stop us. And so that's that's the one
thing that I really wish that women understood was their
innate power. And I know that no matter who
you are, no matter where you were born, no matter what your
political assertion, I know thatyou are powerful because you are
a woman, because you're alive today as a woman.
And the second one is that I really wish that women would
(52:21):
stop seeing themselves as like lamps when there's only one
plug, plug socket. And if one person's shining,
then they must be using the plugsocket.
And that means that we have to be in the dark because actually
we're fairy lights. And the more that we all are
lighting up, the brighter that we shine.
And I really think we need to realize that even though we have
(52:43):
been conditioned to see each other as competition, we
actually need one another and weneed one another to shine.
And it's never been more important to take care of our
own shine, but also to be fierce, fierce advocate for
other women shine too. Oh my gosh, I just want to say
one last thing and then I'm hanging up.
(53:04):
Thank you for saying that. Because I, you know, I talked to
women. That's that's all I ever.
I mean, I have my family, but like all, all, all about women
and and sometimes I'll talk to women and I'm like, and there
are some Mean Girls in the club and some of the Mean Girls are
positioned as women who are lifting up other women.
(53:27):
But but in always. Seem to be, don't they?
It's weird. It's so scary because you're
like, wait a second, I thought we were just supposed to
automatically be friends. I actually, I'm not going to say
any names. I don't want to get sued.
I, there was a very famous womanwho supposedly spoke for women
and was uplifting women and all this stuff.
(53:48):
And I read a profile from somebody who came to work for
this woman and was like so excited.
And she actually said that when she saw her, she actually, she's
like, I'm so horrified by this now.
Like in retrospect, because she wasn't this woman who was going
to, she just was kind of brandedas that.
(54:08):
She hugged her. She just went right up and like
hugged her. She was so excited.
And the woman was like, not interested at all.
Not everybody's a hugger, but itwas really that she wasn't
interested in. She was interested in shining a
light on herself. And and that's, you know what?
That's great. Go shine a light on yourself.
Like all the power to you, but don't don't ring the bell as
(54:32):
you're shining the light on everybody.
If that's not really what you want to do, it's OK.
It's OK to be selfish. Like, if that's what you want to
do, there's plenty of selfish guys out there and they don't
get any backlash for it. You know, don't say that that's
your thing and your platform. Because other women like are
attracted to that and they want,they want that.
(54:52):
We're yearning for that. We're yearning for that kind of
connection that uplifts us all. But thank you for actually being
that for real. It takes time, honestly.
Like I find myself regularly having like times of jealousy
that shows up that doesn't necessarily feel like jealousy.
(55:14):
It might show up as who does shethink she is?
Like someone might be, yeah, doing really well with something
that I want to do really well with that I'm scared that I'm
not going to do really well with.
And my first thought is, well, it's not that.
Like, it's not that impressive or like, I'm like, do you know
what I mean? And then and it's there.
(55:34):
I feel it. I believe the story that I'm
telling myself. But then I can go, oh, this is
really interesting. This is because you're feeling
insecure and that woman's smashing it and you're comparing
yourself to her. Let's take a minute.
Does it mean that the feeling goes away?
But at least it means I don't act on that feeling.
I don't then go out and tell other people about how actually
(55:56):
she's really shit and like she'snot really doodle, which is what
I would have done in the past. It would it would have turned
into some kind of a campaign. And I think that's what a lot of
women do without realizing it, is that we compare ourselves.
We feel really inadequate in response, and then we hurt each
other as a result of that feeling of inadequacy.
(56:18):
Well, you've really what you're claiming even just based on our
conversation, even prior to thisconversation, we've interacted
and I've always gotten the sensethat you are actually the real
deal and like, and so thank you because we need more of that and
and thank you we. Thank you too, because this
whole, everything that you're doing is about lifting up
women's voices. And I think there is no more
(56:42):
important time really to have platforms to tap for us to tell
our stories, for us to listen toone another's stories, for us to
come together as we are biologically meant to be
together in sisterhood. And we need that.
We do. Thank you so much for being
here. I'm going to let everybody go,
but thank you so much. Thank you.
(57:04):
I loved this conversation with Sophie.
I'm reading her book Beyond Palatable right now, and it
expands on so much of what we talked about here.
I love how she put language to something that so many of us
feel like, how so much of our lives can start to feel like
performance and how easy it is to lose touch with what's
actually true for us. And next week, we're taking that
(57:26):
idea out of the internal and into the spaces we move through.
We're talking about what it looks like when women create
environments where they don't have to shrink, explain, or
perform at all. With Siobhan Anderson, if you
are nodding along to this episode, share it with a friend.
That's how these conversations keep going.
See you next week on ROAR.
Women's unpaid labour is a multitrillion dollar industry.
We literally are. Unpaid labour literally holds up
the entire system. That's Sophie Jane Lee, and this
is Roar. Hi, everybody.
(00:20):
It's Danielle Davies, the host of Roar.
I'm really excited today on where I'm joined by Sophie Jane
Lee. She's a journalist, brand
strategist, founder of Electric Peach, but most recently, she's
the author of the upcoming book Beyond Palatable, A manifesto
for unapologetic women, which isobviously perfect for all of us.
Sophie's work sits at the intersection of voice,
(00:40):
visibility and nervous system safety.
She writes about the cost of shrinking ourselves to be
accepted and what happens when women stop performing
palatability and start telling the truth.
Her book isn't just a self help manual, it's a manifesto, a
challenge to the systems that teach women to dilute
themselves, and a toolkit for reclaiming authenticity in a
(01:00):
world that profits from our silence.
Today we're going to be talking about self-expression,
conditioning, leadership, and what it actually means to live
unapologetically. Oh, I have an echo.
Sophie, welcome to ROAR. Thanks so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me.That was really great
introduction. I was like, oh, it sounds so
(01:21):
cool. I think I should just do
introductions because like, I obviously want to talk about the
book a lot because by the time this podcast come out, it comes
out, it'll be available. And will it be available in the
US? Yes.
So you can buy it on all major bookstores and you can, at the
moment you have to ship it over to the US, but you can do that
(01:43):
easily. OK.
And so we're going to talk aboutthat, but I want to just tell
you at the outset that at some point I also want to talk about
your mastermind and the self-expression sessions and be
like, what are you doing across the pond and how do I get there?
Yes, OK. Yes, OK.
We'll talk about. That OK, so first of all, the
book you're talking, I love thatyou use the word palatable
(02:06):
because it's just exactly right.Like our just even before we hit
record, I was like, sorry if I'mtoo much and you reassured me
there is no too much. We're kicking that to the curb.
So when we talk about the word palatable, what behaviors are we
talking about? What is a good woman look like
culturally? It looks like apologizing for
yourself and bringing as you didthis incredible, welcoming,
(02:29):
beautiful energy and still feeling like, oh, no, maybe I
went too far. Presumably because at some point
somebody has said, Danielle, calm down or maybe just tone it
down a bit, whatever that might be, which is so common.
I've worked with hundreds of women with that exact same
experience and story. And it can also look like being
(02:54):
really quiet. So you have something that you
want to say, but holding back and not wanting to say the thing
that that your idea, for example, not wanting to rock the
boat, saying yes when you mean no, which we all have the
experience of so many times. It can look like constant
servitude and the idea that you need to be everything to
(03:18):
everybody all the time. And usually when you get into
your midlife, you realise how completely burnt out you are
because you've been spinning 500different plates and nobody's
giving you any energy back again.
It can look like pretending thatyou love the PTA.
I don't know if you have PTA in the US, but it's the Parent
(03:38):
Teacher Association. Yeah, Yeah.
So it's like, it looks like saying, yes, that you'll do the
talk at the PTA this evening when you actually really hate
all of the mums there and you don't want to be spending your
evening doing that. It's it's kind of this, this
ingrained expectation that womenhave to perform in every element
(04:05):
of our lives. So we're performing what it
looks like to be the perfect wife or the perfect mother or
the bad ass boss bitch or the like, whatever it might be, and
we just completely disconnect from the truth of who we
actually are. I have a question.
So, you know, I've, I've been talking to some, I am in
(04:26):
midlife. So I've been talking, of course,
I do a lot of research about women in midlife because it
benefits myself. But one of the things you know,
is obviously like stepping back from that and reclaiming that
and, and you know, hopefully raising the next generation,
which I think I am successfully doing.
I must say my daughter is, does not, you know, she's like, no,
no, no, these are my boundaries and I absolutely will not do
(04:48):
that. And that's awesome for me.
I'm unlearning that kind of behavior, right?
Like, and, and, but sometimes I'm like, Oh my God, will I
never do anything again? Because it turns out because I'm
like, I don't want to do any of those things, you know?
So like, is there, do you advisewomen or even in your book, are
(05:09):
you like, Hey, there are some things we have to do and what
are they like? Where do you say, OK, I have to
show up for this school thing even though I absolutely hate it
and I don't want to hang out with these moms and I'm not
going for drinks afterwards? Or you just say absolutely not
like I'm not doing it. Is there a point?
(05:30):
Or do you just always say no? Because right now I'm like
saying no to everything. And I think that's I'm here for
that. That's great.
I think in reality though, it's really unrealistic.
And it's I talk in the book a lot about all of these Tri
slogans that we hear. Like if it's not a fuck yes,
it's a fuck no. I'm guessing I can swear.
(05:51):
Yeah, yes, absolutely. OK.
And it's like, if it's not a fuck yes, it's a fuck no like
that. No, that's not like it's never
going to be a fuck yes for me togo and do my weekly shop like
it's it's not, but it has to happen.
I'm like when I go to the dentist, I'm never like, fuck
yes, I'm going to the dentist. I hate it.
(06:12):
But it's an obligation that. Yes, OK, sorry, yeah.
It's an obligation to yourself and like in the same like my
stepson, my stepson's mom lives like a 1 1/2 hour round trip
with traffic. It's never going to be a fuck
yes for me to go and get him andtake him back.
But we do it because we it's thepayoff for that.
(06:33):
So it might be you absolutely hate the PTA, but you want to
show up for your kid and you want to be a present mom and you
want and you really want to be part of influencing the school
system in whatever way. So then it's a spectrum of
discernment of, OK, so the experience right now is really
not what I want, but the reason I'm doing it is good enough and
(06:55):
big enough and bigger than me and my needs to do it to make it
worth it. And, and I think that's kind of
where really more than anything,I want people to, to start to
tune into the truth of themselves.
If it's an absolute fuck no, then I think we need to listen
to that. If it's like a visceral and
(07:16):
you'll know it because your bodywill respond, you'll start to
feel anxious, you'll start to like tense up.
If you force yourself to do things when you feel like that,
then that can be when you start to experience other challenges
related to physical anxiety. But if it's just like, I really
can't be bothered, but I'm doingit for a bigger reason, then
(07:37):
it's the discernment piece of OK, well, is this really more
about why I'm doing it and what I'm showing up for?
And I think that's a really key part because while I really
believe in US reclaiming our autonomy and our voice and our
right to say no when we mean no,I also think that there can be
(07:59):
this weird therapisation of these are my boundaries and I'm
protecting my peace that can actually cause harm to other
people. So there is again, that
discernment piece in each situation where you look at the
nuance of the full picture and use that to make a informed
autonomous decision. And that's a really important
(08:22):
point, right? Because what we do usually is we
just say yes on rote or we just go through the motions because
we think that's what we have to do.
And that's what I'm trying to encourage us to move away from.
I love that, but I and I especially love how you do say
to use discernment because again, like even personally or
what I watch, you know, for my daughter who's 17.
(08:43):
So obviously, you know, there's lots of feelings and emotions
behind like what you will and will not do.
It is interesting because, because I think that's the part
that's missing from so much of the dialogue.
Like, yeah, of course, you know,my husband's like, so because
there's a lot of talk like midlife people are like
unhappily married because they've fallen into these
(09:04):
systems. And he's like, so do we have to
get divorced? Like, no, no, no.
It's like, I like you still. I'm like, that's good.
Like you got to find that middleground that works for you.
And I, I think like exposure to the fact that we can say no and
that we have been conditioned inthis way is great.
But what you're saying is reallyhits the mark.
(09:25):
It's sustainable. Yeah.
And it's not about blowing your whole life up, because I
actually think that what holds alot of women back from doing
this work is the fear that if they start unpicking and start
examining what's going on, that suddenly they're going to be met
with the truth of this huge thing.
(09:45):
That's a huge thing to carry. And then they're going to have
to change their entire life, which is unrealistic for a lot
of people. It's terrifying for a lot of
people, actually. It's more about the incremental
steps of becoming more aware of who you are and the needs that
you have as you as a precious being, and making choices for
(10:08):
your own life based on your own needs, rather than constantly
abandoning yourself and prioritizing everybody else's
needs instead. Quick pause because if you're
listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind
of person I write for. I send out a sub stack
newsletter where I go a little deeper, more personal stories,
behind the scenes thoughts, and honestly, some of the things we
(10:30):
don't always say out loud here. If you want to stay connected
between episodes, you can find it at Roar with
danielledavies.substack.com. I'd love to have you there.
And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast, back to the
the systemic issue of palatability.
Can you, I mean, I, I think I know the answer, but I'd love to
(10:50):
hear your words describing it. Who benefits from this training
of women's palatability? If we look at what the outcome
of that is, so first of all, women's unpaid labour is a multi
trillion dollar industry. We literally, our unpaid labour
literally holds up the entire system, not just in the UK, not
(11:14):
just in the US, if you look at it as a global issue.
So if we woke up and we were like, do you know what?
Actually, I'm not going to do all of this unpaid labour, thank
you. The world would literally stop
operating because it relies on us to be in servitude.
That's number one. Number two, the industries that
(11:35):
profit directly profit from women's insecurities.
We've got the beauty industry, the Wellness industry, the
fashion industry, the Pharmaceutical industry,
actually, because there's a hugemarket for selling drugs to
women who are completely burnt out and completely overwhelmed
to help them calm down. Like Valium as mother's little
(11:57):
helper. The alcohol.
I'm like just laughing internally because it's just,
it's like, so when you say it and you say it so well, but when
you put it all out, it's like sopreposterous.
But keep going, keep going. I mean, yes, because we're all
just fed antidepressants and anti anxiety medications because
(12:18):
of course we're exhausted and ofcourse we're.
Yeah. Well, autoimmune disorders,
which have been directly linked to repressed emotion, are
overwhelmingly impact women, andburnout overwhelmingly impacts
women. We have this mass exodus from
the workplace, which is being positioned as a ambition gap,
(12:42):
like it's just ridiculous. But then again, to go back to
the industries that profit from women, we've sort of got the
Pharmaceutical industry. We've got the fact that women
account for, but I think it's by20-30 they predict that women
will account for 96% of household spending.
So women literally the system relies on us to operate as the
(13:07):
commodity of it. And also we're the ones that are
buying it. So we have both the product and
the buyer. And when you really start to
understand that if we, if you orI or any of us woke up tomorrow
and we were like, I don't need any of this stuff to be happy.
I don't need this new beauty regime.
(13:27):
I don't need to look like how I've been told I need to look.
None of that stuff. I actually just need connection
and rest and community and nature.
Like all of these things that are fundamental to human
happiness, our literal biological system has been set
(13:48):
up for it. And then we just stopped buying
into the system literally physically like money buying the
system. Well then the entire system
would collapse. Which is the reason why there is
a backlash every single time that there is any kind of female
empowerment movement because they know that we there is multi
(14:08):
trillion dollar industries builton the back of women's
insecurity and they have engineered it.
So as soon as they start to see women being like, actually, I
don't need this. And actually whatever it might
be, there will always be a backlash to that.
And we see that all the time. And it makes me kind of smile
when I see the rise of misogyny in a really weird way, because I
(14:31):
think they must be terrified. If they're going so far down
this weird misogynistic twisty root, then they must be
terrified. We must be gaining power because
otherwise they wouldn't be bothering.
Do you feel like it's purposefulor like almost habitual on that
end as well? Do you know what I mean?
(14:52):
Like we're so ingrained that it's some well, OK, so yesterday
I was in Manhattan and when we woke up in the morning, somebody
turned a television on and therewas this old movie.
And of course, I get, I'm like, can't have something on in the
background. I'm like, who?
Like, that's it. I'm.
It's like I'm in a trance. But it was called Adam's Rib.
And it's from 1939. It's with Katharine Hepburn and
(15:13):
Spencer Tracy, And in it they'reboth lawyers.
I mean, this is 1939. It's almost 100 years ago.
They're both lawyers. And it's a husband versus a wife
case and she's representing a woman who shot her husband after
he basically abused her. And it's sort of, I mean, it's
sort of comedic the way they're playing it.
(15:35):
I mean, it is 1939. But interestingly, it wasn't
dated like like the themes were all the same.
And I'm like, so it almost seemslike, you know, there's this
movement for women and then misogyny shows its head and
we're back down. And then there's this movement.
And I'm just wondering from whatyou've done in your research and
(15:55):
talking to people, do you feel like it's purposeful or do you
feel like it's partially the their own internal patterns?
I think that it's a bit of both that originally it was certainly
purposeful. There was the, if you look at,
(16:17):
and in my book, I do the big, the first part of my book is all
looking at the history, the literature, the stories that
have been created, the narratives woven throughout the
last. Well, I look at right, right
back at the beginning of where the patriarchy was supposedly
created and what that means and why that is and how interwoven
(16:38):
now patriarchy, capitalism and white supremacy are as a system
of oppression. And a lot of that comes from the
stories that were told, which onthe one hand is that men were
the ones that told the stories. So there, there was only really
one narrative and whenever womenwere in part of that narrative,
they were being told through thelens of the, the male lens
(17:01):
anyway. But then equally there is
evidence all the way back to theGreek times of women having no
voice and, and how dangerous it was for a woman to have a voice.
And we've seen throughout history what happens when women
have a voice or when women connect to their innate power,
IE our cycles, the cycles of nature are ability to use nature
(17:25):
for medicinal purposes. All of these things contributed
to the witch trials. And over and over and over and
over again, over thousands of years, women have been shown
not, not even conditioned. It's evidence.
This is what happens if a woman is seen.
This is what happens if a woman is heard.
It is unsafe. We have that programming within
(17:48):
our biology and within the narratives that we continue to
be fed. And in the last 100 years,
things have actually changed at an alarming rate in so, so many
ways, in a way that's never, ever happened before.
And we're kind of on this like Jolty roller coaster, Like it's
(18:08):
it's been less than 50 years since women were allowed to have
a mortgage on their own, but not, sorry, not even a yeah, a
mortgage. It's been 50 years since women
and not that much longer than that since they were allowed to
have a bank account. Of course, then we've got the
vote. In the world today, there's
still a lot of countries where none of those things are
available to women, where women are still killed for being seen
(18:32):
and having a voice. And so I, I do think that some
of it is conditioning and that women ourselves are also
responsible for it. Because I know actually,
honestly, as many, if not more misogynistic women than I do
misogynistic men. So we can talk about that if you
(18:52):
want. A lot of.
Feelings about that. And I think that the systems of
patriarchal oppression impact men as much, just in different
ways as they impact women because they're so outdated.
We're looking at 12,000 years. It's, we live in a very weird
(19:14):
time where roles are really distorted and nobody really
knows what they're supposed to be doing and it causes confusion
and anger and we're not always very good at having good
communication through that. So we blame each other.
But equally, I do 100% believe that the people who are in power
know exactly what they're doing,and I absolutely believe that
(19:36):
they are purposefully creating polarisation and civil unrest to
distract from the real problem, which is completely insane
capitalism and the oppressive systems that are actually
(19:56):
impacting like 99% of us and the1% who are benefiting from that.
Oh, you know, it is really too bad that you're ever going to
have to hang up because I could have you on the phone all day,
all day, all day. I have, I have so much to say,
but I, I'm, I'm going to try to not, I want to go back to the
one thing you said that it's also women who are, you know, I
(20:18):
look at it as you're holding down other women, right?
I mean, if there are women who are part of this patriarchy, who
are the ones shushing you? And in fact, most of the
shushing that's been done in my life has been from other women
because we are like you said, it's, it's almost like a fear
thing. So you can't have one of you,
(20:39):
you know, speaking out. We have to kind of stay together
and like be quiet. Can you talk about this?
And like the idea also of almostself abandonment so that there's
belonging. Yeah, I think we have been
conditioned to believe that fitting in equals belonging.
(21:01):
Fitting in does not equal belonging.
I'm sure we've all had those experiences where we're
technically part of the tribe, but we feel so lonely and so
disconnected and so fractured within ourselves.
Self abandoned, fitting in, trying to fit in will only ever
lead to self abandonment. But we have, many of us have
been taught, especially by if, if we have boomer parents who
(21:26):
have grown up in a really weird time because they're they've,
they've been brought up by parents who were either in the
war or whose parents were probably their, his parents were
in the First World War. And that's like insanely
different time to what we have today.
And they were the first ones as women that were taught that they
(21:47):
could have it all and that they could have a career and that
they could go out while at the same time having these really
traditional roles and expectations drilled into them
by their parents. It's like this cognitive
dissonance of how you're supposed to be as a woman.
So our generation have been taught on the one hand you've
got to be acceptable and you've got to be palatable, but then at
(22:08):
the other time you also have to be exceptional and you have to
be achiever and you have to be an achiever.
And you can't just be a stay at home mother because that's a
waste of a life and all of thesethings.
And that is a that is a completelike these two things can't
exist together. You cannot be acceptable and
exceptional. The two things cancel one
(22:29):
another out because acceptable is showing the line, doing what
everybody else does, doing what people expect of you.
Exceptional by its very nature is being one-of-a-kind shining.
So it like, of course, we're in this confused, like what the
hell? And I think women, because we've
been conditioned to believe we have to fix everything and have
(22:52):
all of the answers and have it all put together, that cognitive
dissonance creates so real fracture within us that we don't
know how to communicate effectively.
And so then it plays out as you've broken the social
contract. You behaving in that way is
unacceptable to the social contract and therefore holding a
(23:13):
mirror up against me and what I'm supposed to be doing.
And so I'm going to judge you for it and project all of my
fears and insecurities onto you and make you pull you down a peg
or two in response to that. Oh my God, I cannot wait to get
your book. I can't wait when you another
thing you talk about too, is that it this isn't just this
(23:35):
isn't just happening, it's happening internally in our
body. So it's not just like a mindset
habit, like I will do these things.
It's it's a physical you're you're feeling, you're not just
thinking yourself small. Your body has learned to kind of
cower, your body has learned to do these things.
What is shrinking actually feel like in the body and why was it
(23:55):
important to you? I know there's like somatic
practices in your work. Why was that important to you?
How did you even kind of conceptualize this?
Sorry, that's like 3 questions at the same time, OK.
Well, they all link together. So like the the experience of
shrinking actually is so much more physical than it is
(24:17):
psychological. Like of course we might
experience it as loneliness or fear or sadness or whatever kind
of emotion comes up. But physically it feels like
like having someone putting weight again on your chest, like
the feeling of being trapped andlike your whole body is kind of
(24:39):
clenching so tightly. And we might say that that's
anxiety and women are so prone to anxiety, but actually this is
your body like feeling constantly under threat because
we're social creatures, we are conditioned, biologically
conditioned to not be kicked outof the tribe.
(25:03):
We it's dangerous for our safetyto be kicked out of the tribe.
So when we have that feeling of being ostracized or what have
you, or the fear of that it, it occurs to us as a, as a physical
threat. But then the other thing that I
find really interesting is wherewe have our response to that.
(25:24):
So fight, flight, freeze. And then there's the phone
response, which people refer to as people pleasing, which is
also now demonised. I'm recovering people pleaser
and is really interesting again,because there's an expectation
of you to sacrifice yourself foreveryone else.
But if you're a people pleaser, that's a really bad thing.
(25:45):
And people pleasing is just yourbody's response to dysregulated
nervous system. And so we are taught from a
really young age the way to keepthe peace is just to do what
everyone, everyone asks us to do.
The way to make sure that you'resafe is just to say yes when you
really mean no. And all of those things are
people pleasing, and you can't just think your way out of that
(26:07):
because it's been ingrained intoyou since you're so young.
It's a safety mechanism. It's literally what your body
has understood to stay alive. It doesn't know the difference
between dying, potentially dying, and having someone be
annoyed with you. It registers them as the same
thing. So you're having this constant
(26:28):
state of like, who? And it feels so overwhelming
because your body's reading it like an actual physical threat.
And I wish people understood that more because it's become so
thrown around now and demonized.And it's so unfair because we
live in a society that conditions us into it to just
(26:50):
expect that you're going to be able to think your way out of
it. Like, if that worked, my God,
Like how? How amazing would it be if we
could just all think our way outof neuroses like you can't think
your way out of a newer seats? No, you can't, despite many,
many years of trying. It's interesting too, because I
feel like, you know, even sometimes some of one of the
(27:12):
things that I keep reading aboutdifferent just it just keeps
coming up. It's not necessarily because I'm
I'm of course everything you're saying I'm relating to like
people that I know or this or that and I'm and making
everything personal. But my sister has always been
like I'm guilty of being such a people pleaser And and she is,
I'm more guilty of and guilty. See.
Look at us. I'm more on it.
(27:33):
I am more someone who is negotiating the peace of the
people at the table and like conversations, but how you find
yourself in these roles and you're just locked in?
And that's still, that's still aphone response because you're
trying to manage the emotional state of the people around you.
(27:53):
Like it comes from the same thing.
It's just a different manifestation of that thing.
And you asked me why somatics. So I spent an awful long time
after many, many, many, many years of self abuse and
addiction, doing every kind of therapy you could possibly
imagine. And I found that talk therapy
(28:13):
did not work for me at all because it just re traumatized.
I couldn't think my way out of my crazy it's.
Like thinking your way out of it, right?
Like I just it like all I I started to intellectize my
crazy. I had like the language to
excuse myself from my crazy, butI couldn't shift it and because
(28:35):
it was rooted in my body. So when I discovered somatics,
which is all about connecting tothe body, understanding how the
nervous system works, understanding how to regulate
yourself, and also knowing that whatever you're experiencing is
a really normal reaction. Because when we psychoanalyze
ourselves, we make ourselves wrong.
(28:55):
We're like, I shouldn't be a people pleaser.
I should try harder. I even like things like I'm
working hard. I'm not working so hard.
Yeah, like the shoulds, the shoulds, like I should, I
should. It's like it's such an
obligation. It makes you just start off at a
negative. Yeah.
And when we realized that actually we live in a completely
(29:15):
batshit crazy world that is not designed for the way that our
systems, our physical systems and our social systems were
supposed to operate, we are in every single way operating
against what our biology is supposed to be operating.
Of course we feel like this. Of course we're behaving like
this. And you start to give yourself
(29:36):
some more grace. And then those intrusive
thoughts, which I had real challenges with, can start to
get quieter because it's not, oh, it's no longer me that's
default like a defunct. I'm not defunct.
I'm not broken. The system is defunct and
broken, though. How do I navigate that with as
much care and as much grace for myself and others as possible?
(30:01):
The first thing to do is to regulate my nervous system
because nobody can function properly when they're in that
heightened dysregulated state because you're just cortisol.
You're just living on cortisol all the time.
And it not only is it terrible for your health, but it's
terrible for your happiness, foryour interrelational dynamics,
your ability to focus all of these things.
(30:23):
So when I realized that, and I did my own process with that, I
then trained as a semantics coach so that I could bring that
into my work because I work a lot with women who want to use
their voice and become more visible.
And I realized again, the idea of like, just get visible is
rubbish. Because if you haven't got a
nerve, a regulated nervous system, then you will find a way
(30:45):
to sabotage yourself. Or someone will come and say
something horrible because people do, and it will throw you
off and you'll go back into hiding again.
And actually, that regulated state is so essential for being
able to be sustainably visible and well resourced at the same
time. I love your process of this and
(31:09):
I love how you came to it when you you know, based on your own
experience and obviously becoming less palatable,
although I find you to be quite palatable to me, yes.
Like, did becoming more visible cost you anything personally or
surprise you in ways you didn't expect?
(31:29):
It cost me quite a lot of friendships over the last couple
of years, particularly last year.
I had quite a few of who I considered to be really close
friends break up with me in verydramatic, very upsetting ways.
And my first thought when multiple things happen and I'm
(31:50):
the common denominator is to think what I must be the problem
because I'm the one that's therefor all of these different
things. And I think probably it's true
actually that I was the, I was that common denominator.
And really it was because in thepast I used to, I used to have a
bit of a saviour complex. And so my friendships were built
(32:10):
around me being like, I can saveyou, I can be there for you.
And the more that I grew into who I am, the less I felt the
need to do that. And I was like, it's not my
place to fix you. It's not my place to run in and
save you when stuff happens for you.
And I think that created a real tension in those relationships
(32:31):
that relied on that dynamic fromme.
And they then mistook my new boundaries for suddenly thinking
I was better than them or, or something like that.
They created a whole story around that, and that was really
painful. But I also expected it because
when you start to change and youstart to grow into yourself, the
(32:54):
people who were your people pleasing to please are no longer
pleased. And then they start, then they
start projecting all of their own shit that they're not
dealing with themselves back on to you.
So it does happen, though. I mean like this thing that we
fear, you know, being left by a friend or a spouse or a child or
(33:19):
your neighbor. It does happen.
Like being yourself can be scary, right?
There are people who what? Why is it still worth it?
Well, first of all, I would say that honestly, it's not that it
can happen, it's that it will happen.
You will find that when you're, especially if you've been
pretending really, really a lot and you're allowing yourself to
(33:42):
shed these layers and suddenly you're being your true self will
feel really confronting to the people who are used to you being
a different way. That's normal.
There is a whole chapter in my book called Navigating other
people, which is because this islike this is, this is definitely
going to happen. And a lot of people who I work
(34:03):
with hold themselves back because they don't want to have
to deal with other people no longer liking them or judging
them or whatever it might be. And I find that really sad
because the number one regret ofthe dying is living life to
somebody else's expectations. So at the end of it all, when
(34:23):
you strip it all back and nothing else matters, the number
one thing that people regret is that they didn't live their own
lives and nothing, nothing. No Sandra from down the road
talking about you behind your back, no, your mum being put off
that you're no longer doing all the things that you were doing
(34:43):
that she was relying on. Like no thing, no other person
is worth you getting to the end of your life and looking back
with that level of regret. You're so good, OK, for thank
you, thank you. And I and I couldn't agree with
you more. But I do think like there is
(35:04):
and, and I guess women can expect, you know, or, or anybody
who's shedding something that's not authentic or speaking up for
the first time. And they've maybe not done it
before or they've, they've seemed to go along to get along
and, and finally, it's too much.And I think that that's
happening a lot, by the way, right now politically.
I mean, it's been happening, butit's like really, really, really
(35:25):
happening right now in the US And if anybody still likes us
outside the US, there's. A lot of great things about the
US, the people. There's a lot of.
Great, you have some issues. Yeah, so it's like, but and so
there's so much infighting too, because so many people for so
long, you know, I mean, the two rules you grew up with, if you
(35:47):
have boomer parents are you don't talk about politics and
you don't talk about religion. Those are the 2 things and it's.
Like you're not allowed to talk about money either, but that
might be a British thing. Actually, I think Americans love
talking about money. We talk about money a little bit
more, but maybe we just don't even talk about how we don't
talk about money. You know, there is a lot of talk
about money and how much we haveor don't or don't sadly.
(36:10):
But but now like, you know, it'sgotten to the point in so many
people from what I would like tosay, my side of the of the aisle
or my side of the world view aresaying, you know, you must talk
about politics because everything is political.
So there's really no way to separate this there.
Every single thing from where the meat is placed at the
(36:33):
grocery store to where you get your coffee.
Everything's food related for meright now, but it's all
political. So you of course you're talking
about it, but so there are so many people who for the longest
time have not said a word. They've literally gone on and
now they're saying something andpeople are like, whoa, I don't,
you know, I used to like you when you weren't like this.
And it's so it can't, it doesn'tcan be, you're right.
(36:57):
It is going to happen even if it's super small and it's going
to hurt like that's the other part.
It it is going to hurt like. It's going to hurt, yeah.
But you can come through on the other end.
Yeah, and that's, that's what I'm taking away.
Yeah. And that's why having tools and
(37:18):
the the book is is really a workbook.
Every chapter has exercises thatbuild on one another so that
when we get to the part where sobut the first chapter is going
to make you so angry and wake you up so much to how insane the
whole situation is and hopefullygive you empathy for your own
(37:41):
ways that you have abandoned yourself and also others.
Because again, we talked about internalized misogyny in women.
That's also conditioning. It's not to say women are bad
and even those who've done some nasty thing, I've been one of
those nasty people who've tried to pull other people down
because of my insecurities. I think we we've all been there.
At some point, you start to havemore grace with yourself and
(38:02):
more compassion. By the time it gets to the part
of now actually taking some action and like really releasing
your true self, you're more resourced to do that.
And I think that resourcing yourself and again, going back
to the nervous system, regulating that, being prepared
for the fact that somebody mightnot like it, but that doesn't
(38:24):
mean that's your problem. And it doesn't even mean that
they don't like you even in the moment that it might feel like
they don't like you because they're having a real extreme
reaction to something. It always says something much,
much more about them than it does about you.
And when you start to understandthat I'm not responsible for
other people's emotions and reactions, but I am responsible
(38:46):
for how I choose to move throughthe world.
And especially in the context ofthings like religion.
Like, again, would you rather just be silent and watch all of
the horrors that are happening in the world and not be somebody
who uses their one precious lifefor that?
Just because you're worried thatUncle Fred will think that
(39:07):
you've become too political and it's not, it's not acceptable
behavior. Or would you rather learn how to
galvanized and rally and use your voice and use your beliefs
for good? Like that's, that's a that's a
big thing for in the work that Ido is how do we use our voices
as a chorus to come together to make a difference?
(39:28):
Because we really need to now that the world needs women
particularly to wake up. Stop behaving batshit crazy and
voting for people who are like actual frigging sex offenders
And like I'm sorry, I shouldn't have got.
I mean, we're laughing because it's so absurd.
I actually just asked someone yesterday was like, is there
(39:49):
still a like, you know, the onion?
I'm like, is there still the onion?
Because what do they have? There's no need there anymore.
Everything is the onion. I know.
And, and again, I, I, I think it's really important with
politics because it, it can SAP.There's so much nuance.
There's like it's like this. Right and wrong, good and bad in
(40:11):
the general public is to me not very helpful because again, it's
infighting when nobody, nobody, nobody that you come to in the
street is the problem. The problem is the people who
are causing all of this issues and they are manipulating
people. And some people can see that and
(40:31):
some people cannot see that. But that is what's happening.
And I really, really believe that the only way that we can
actually solve this is to stop blaming one another and start
coming together to even in our differences, even in our, I
don't actually agree with what you believe about this, but I
can see the humanity in you. Let's come together, let's share
(40:52):
our stories and create a new world that's actually going to
work for everybody. Because let's be honest, this
isn't working for anybody. Exactly.
They're they're doing just fine.They don't need your book, but
everybody else does because and and you know, even to have that
conversation to say we're I didn't just raise my flag and
(41:12):
say, now I believe this. So you're wrong.
It's not it's now what do you dowith that?
And and say, like, how can you come together and how can you
communicate? And I think you really do have
to have these resources that you're providing to kind of do
that, that to be introspective enough to be able to be
(41:34):
yourself, you know what I mean? To have those because those are
really vulnerable conversations.And a lot of people, you know,
they're good at the fight. Like, you know, it's almost like
a little performative. Like I'm here now, I'm, I can
speak up and it's the fight, butthere's the next step.
It's not supposed to just you have to get there.
And I think that that's something that, I mean, from the
(41:55):
sounds of it, that's what beyondpalatable will help people do in
the future. So good timing.
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, it definitely will help
you to come home to yourself andto navigate tricky dynamics
better to find your own truth aswell.
(42:16):
Because imagine if you've spent so long pretending that you're
fine about something that actually deep down is really,
really not fine for you. How lonely you would feel in
those situations. And like, yes, you might have to
lose a few people along the way,but then you, what more can you,
what more can you gain? Who could you meet?
If you're being true to yourself, if you're shining your
(42:39):
light fully, other people can find you.
And and that can bring a whole nother opportunity in your life.
And I will always have an undercurrent motivation because
I believe so strongly that thereis no problem that can't be
resolved through effective communication, that we should be
using our voices. And I will should on this.
I do believe we should be using our voices because we have got
(43:03):
the freedom and privilege as women in the West today and a
lot of women in the world do not.
I think we absolutely should be using our voices for justice and
equality. And I do not think it's
controversial to say that you stand for justice and equality
and it's become an insane world that we live in that that is
seen as some kind of political controversial thing to say.
(43:26):
And I do believe that we have a responsibility to do that.
And that's one part of it. But you also have a
responsibility to yourself to betrue to yourself.
And then you can live in in a joyful and aligned way.
And it doesn't mean you have to blow up your marriage, it it
just means taking the steps to find alignment in a way that's
(43:48):
true to you. Absolutely.
I'm I'm really excited about this, but you're you're bringing
me back to the very first thing that I said, which are what are
some of the other ways that people can work work with you
and wait, hold on. I have it written down.
So I'm going to look the self-expression sessions and the
mastermind. Can we?
I know you've got to go soon, but can you touch base on what
(44:08):
each of those are and how peoplecan access you?
Sure. So the self-expression sessions
are live events that I run throughout the UK.
We just had one in Bristol and they were created from belief
that everything is more joyful when we're true to ourselves.
(44:29):
And also that business sucks sometimes because there's so
much bullshit. I'm really really, I'm really,
really sick of this whole 10X your income, 6 figure boss bitch
culture that I see and that I, Ireally think it, it damages
people so much because we believe we need to look and be a
(44:50):
certain way to be successful. And I'm living proof that that
is not true. So I see it as kind of like like
a variety show of weird and wonderful creative ways to
connect with yourself. And it depends on the city that
the city kind of influences how I choose to shape the event.
(45:10):
But we always have lots of audience participation and
creativity, always have some level of poetry in there,
usually some singing and talks around.
From people who have spent a long time believing that they
were a weirdo and that they could never make anything of
their lives to actually the mostshining beacons of amazing,
(45:32):
fabulousness that you've ever met.
And how they did it and what that means for them, their
business, their lives. So it's really opportunity for
people to get creative, explore and experiment and be inspired
to to be who they are really is my kind of one thing that I hope
people get from it. OK, real quick, if you're
(45:55):
listening and thinking more women should be hearing
conversations like this, the best way to support the show is
just to follow or subscribe wherever you are.
It really does help it reach more people.
Thanks so much. OK, back to the show.
I know you're going to do a booktour.
You're doing a book tour. Is that going to be in the US at
all? Well, the problem is is that I'm
boycotting the US on account of your president.
(46:17):
That is, that is a problem. That is a problem.
I have nothing. I did.
OK, go ahead. But I to be I probably, I do
believe it's really, it's reallyneeded and that the US is
absolutely the perfect place forit.
And I've got so many people I love very dearly over over on
(46:38):
your side of the world. So never say never.
Right now it's kind of shady. I.
Understand. Never I.
Understand and well, in your book tour, at least in the UK.
So they're but they're gonna be separate.
It's obviously you're not. I was like, if you come to the
US, you can, you know, back-to-back it do like the,
the, the, the sessions and the book tour and all this stuff.
(47:00):
But I'm kind of doing that in the UK, so I'm doing a lot of.
So I'm doing quite a few of themin bookshop.
So that'll be more like your average kind of so boring, but
it will be more like what you'd expect from a book tour.
And then I'm doing some that aresessions that are more
outlandish with burlesque and music and protest.
One of them is going to be like a big protest where we make all
(47:20):
of our own signs and have a photo shoot.
And so I've I've got quite a lotof work to do.
So much fun though, so much fun.So it's like an empowering
event, it sounds like. Yeah, they are.
Really, really. Every time I do them I I am
reminded of why they're important and actually what I
(47:41):
was planning to do because I'm just one person and I'll be
going on maternity leave in Julyanyway.
So exciting. I was actually planning to turn
self-expression sessions into a community initiative where I
create all of the assets and train people on the format, but
give it to people in different communities to run their own
(48:04):
with some quality assurance check insurance.
Because it's for me, it's not like I don't need to be the one
that owns it. I just think it's a really
important model and concept thatI'd love to see all over the
world. So maybe you could run a
self-expression session for me, Danielle.
And I'm, I'm stuck here anyway in the US So yeah, I mean, I
(48:24):
don't mean stuck. I don't mean stuck, but you
know, I mean, in some ways I mean stuck.
But I'm here anyway, so there's no boycotting myself.
And that sounds great. And I always love is it like a
one day event? Is it a couple hours?
Is it multi day? It depends.
So most of the ones I've done have been evenings.
So 6 till 9, I did one that was a full day event, which was more
(48:47):
like a retreat day around the theme of taking up space, which
was beautiful. And but the evening ones are
easier to do. And I think those would be the
ones that I would send out on little missions around and
about. Yeah.
So that would be really phenomenal.
If you if you wanted to give that a test drive with me, we
will. Have to talk again.
(49:07):
I would love to try that becausethat's just very much up my
alley. But also, you have a mastermind
and now are you still going to have this?
Yes. So the mastermind is currently
running. I won't be taking any more into
it until next year, but it runs over a year.
(49:27):
It's all about voice and visibility.
And because my my background is in brand, so I also run an
agency that works with SMEs fromnon profit organisations to help
them with their storytelling. So I kind of take all of that
big business experience and thenhelp founders to build their
(49:48):
business brand, and I don't likethe term, but personal brand and
get themselves seen. And we do a lot of public
speaking training and kitchen training.
And how do you get yourself out there beyond social media?
So that's the brilliant mastermind.
And then I also run a program called She's Electric, which is
(50:11):
specifically public speaking, which I will be running again in
April through to June. Oh my gosh, you are so busy.
You are doing a million things. All of them are.
And I also, I love the names of them all like she's electric,
electric beach, unpalatable. They're just they're very much
(50:31):
they're very much in line with my way of thinking.
So it's all very palatable to me.
I include after, you know, when this all comes out, I'll include
all of this in the show notes. Is there anything else that you
want to share for women like whomaybe just today are feeling
very much very palatable and notloving that feeling?
(50:55):
Is there one thing all of them today besides obviously get your
book, that would even prompt them to feel a little bit better
in their skin? There is a quote that I have in
my book that I have on my desk, which is I wish I could show you
when you are lonely or in darkness, the astonishing light
(51:18):
of your own being. And I wish that women could see
how phenomenally powerful they are just by being them.
And that none of those expectations, those desires that
(51:38):
you need to be a certain way, whether that's how you look or
how you're supposed to be, none of that actually matters.
And none of that is real or true.
And if we were able to see ourselves in the way that other
people see us, or if we were able to see ourselves in the way
that we truly are, then it wouldbe, there would be absolutely
(52:01):
nothing that would stop us. And so that's that's the one
thing that I really wish that women understood was their
innate power. And I know that no matter who
you are, no matter where you were born, no matter what your
political assertion, I know thatyou are powerful because you are
a woman, because you're alive today as a woman.
And the second one is that I really wish that women would
(52:21):
stop seeing themselves as like lamps when there's only one
plug, plug socket. And if one person's shining,
then they must be using the plugsocket.
And that means that we have to be in the dark because actually
we're fairy lights. And the more that we all are
lighting up, the brighter that we shine.
And I really think we need to realize that even though we have
(52:43):
been conditioned to see each other as competition, we
actually need one another and weneed one another to shine.
And it's never been more important to take care of our
own shine, but also to be fierce, fierce advocate for
other women shine too. Oh my gosh, I just want to say
one last thing and then I'm hanging up.
(53:04):
Thank you for saying that. Because I, you know, I talked to
women. That's that's all I ever.
I mean, I have my family, but like all, all, all about women
and and sometimes I'll talk to women and I'm like, and there
are some Mean Girls in the club and some of the Mean Girls are
positioned as women who are lifting up other women.
(53:27):
But but in always. Seem to be, don't they?
It's weird. It's so scary because you're
like, wait a second, I thought we were just supposed to
automatically be friends. I actually, I'm not going to say
any names. I don't want to get sued.
I, there was a very famous womanwho supposedly spoke for women
and was uplifting women and all this stuff.
(53:48):
And I read a profile from somebody who came to work for
this woman and was like so excited.
And she actually said that when she saw her, she actually, she's
like, I'm so horrified by this now.
Like in retrospect, because she wasn't this woman who was going
to, she just was kind of brandedas that.
(54:08):
She hugged her. She just went right up and like
hugged her. She was so excited.
And the woman was like, not interested at all.
Not everybody's a hugger, but itwas really that she wasn't
interested in. She was interested in shining a
light on herself. And and that's, you know what?
That's great. Go shine a light on yourself.
Like all the power to you, but don't don't ring the bell as
(54:32):
you're shining the light on everybody.
If that's not really what you want to do, it's OK.
It's OK to be selfish. Like, if that's what you want to
do, there's plenty of selfish guys out there and they don't
get any backlash for it. You know, don't say that that's
your thing and your platform. Because other women like are
attracted to that and they want,they want that.
(54:52):
We're yearning for that. We're yearning for that kind of
connection that uplifts us all. But thank you for actually being
that for real. It takes time, honestly.
Like I find myself regularly having like times of jealousy
that shows up that doesn't necessarily feel like jealousy.
(55:14):
It might show up as who does shethink she is?
Like someone might be, yeah, doing really well with something
that I want to do really well with that I'm scared that I'm
not going to do really well with.
And my first thought is, well, it's not that.
Like, it's not that impressive or like, I'm like, do you know
what I mean? And then and it's there.
(55:34):
I feel it. I believe the story that I'm
telling myself. But then I can go, oh, this is
really interesting. This is because you're feeling
insecure and that woman's smashing it and you're comparing
yourself to her. Let's take a minute.
Does it mean that the feeling goes away?
But at least it means I don't act on that feeling.
I don't then go out and tell other people about how actually
(55:56):
she's really shit and like she'snot really doodle, which is what
I would have done in the past. It would it would have turned
into some kind of a campaign. And I think that's what a lot of
women do without realizing it, is that we compare ourselves.
We feel really inadequate in response, and then we hurt each
other as a result of that feeling of inadequacy.
(56:18):
Well, you've really what you're claiming even just based on our
conversation, even prior to thisconversation, we've interacted
and I've always gotten the sensethat you are actually the real
deal and like, and so thank you because we need more of that and
and thank you we. Thank you too, because this
whole, everything that you're doing is about lifting up
women's voices. And I think there is no more
(56:42):
important time really to have platforms to tap for us to tell
our stories, for us to listen toone another's stories, for us to
come together as we are biologically meant to be
together in sisterhood. And we need that.
We do. Thank you so much for being
here. I'm going to let everybody go,
but thank you so much. Thank you.
(57:04):
I loved this conversation with Sophie.
I'm reading her book Beyond Palatable right now, and it
expands on so much of what we talked about here.
I love how she put language to something that so many of us
feel like, how so much of our lives can start to feel like
performance and how easy it is to lose touch with what's
actually true for us. And next week, we're taking that
(57:26):
idea out of the internal and into the spaces we move through.
We're talking about what it looks like when women create
environments where they don't have to shrink, explain, or
perform at all. With Siobhan Anderson, if you
are nodding along to this episode, share it with a friend.
That's how these conversations keep going.
See you next week on ROAR.
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