May 28, 2025 • 64 mins
What starts as a blurry camera and a backwards 'ON AIR' sign (this stuff comes with the territory when working with the great man) quickly tumbles into the kind of deeply human, wildly philosophical rollercoaster that only Bobby Cappuccio can deliver. In this episode, we revisit Man’s Search for Meaning (a book that's shaped us both along the way) and unravel how context, timing, and perspective can change everything.
We dive into the evolution of self-help (and how it often misses the mark), the blurred lines between vulnerability and performance, and why telling your story isn’t always the same as sharing your truth. There’s personal reflection, a few unexpected rants, and some punchy (and painful) truths about growth, purpose, and what really matters when life gets hard.
If you’ve ever questioned the work you're doing (on yourself or for the world) this on might hit home!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm tiff This is role with the Punches and we're
turning life's hardest hits into wins.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Nobody wants to go to court, and don't.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
My friends at test Art Family Lawyers know that they
offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of
Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of
family law to facto and same sex couples, custody and children,
family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements.
(00:38):
Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to
Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot
com dot au.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Tiffany Cook, Welcome to our show.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Bobby Capuccio. It's so good to see you.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
It's so good to see you back on your show.
Mine antidote, roll with the punchers, rolling with the antidote.
That sounds like that sounds like people who are stuck
in a post apocalyptic zombie situation, which I hope it
is not the case.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I miss I really miss the days of when we
did this every single week, every single week, and there's
a there's a fondness I have around the time that
we're doing that and it's like COVID times, which is
weird to feel fondly about that, But I feel really
fondly about some of the really positive things that that
(01:39):
I connected with, and you were one of them, and
there was real comfort in that, that familiarity that doing
something with somebody every week, and I miss it. I
miss our Yeah, how regular we were able to do
that When I was pumping out way more episodes.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
When you said COVID, I thought you were going to
start reminiscing about the times where we would all do
professional meetings and podcasts, but like, have no trousers on,
Well that's where you were going, but you took it
in a completely different direction. But I loved or I
just love it. It was also beyond COVID. I mean,
we should do a special podcast called beyond COVID. Let's
(02:19):
make a note of that. Do we have that? There's
no one here to make a note of it, so
maybe we won't do that after all. But I loved
our weekly meetings or weekly chats. I look forward to
them now I can say something about bi weekly.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, there's something about the going through things with people
that solidifies your your friendship with them, and I think
about because I think about that whiteboard brainstorming session that
you ran me through in the very beginning, Like I
just remember the beginnings of connecting with you and starting
(02:55):
to work with you and looking up to you so much,
just being so incredibly feeling so incredibly blessed that you
would spend all this time with me and help me
with my personal stuff. And it's just it's cool. I
don't know why I'm thinking of it right now. I'm
obviously feeling nostalgic.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Well, I'm glad you got over it. I'm glad I
got rid of that that damn highchair. My feets to dangle.
People used to have to like look up at me
all the time. It was this weird thing. I was
like my first podcast episodes. That's why I never released
the videos. It was just like my voice and nipples
(03:38):
the entire time. It's like, what's really sad? It took
me six months of episodes before I even noticed for
anyone Han said anything like the Rihano sign behind me
that Craig Harper doesn't give a shit about.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Clearly, So I want to tell the listeners I logged
on and you've got you've got books in your bookcase.
Behind You've got a brilliant background. It's got old, beautiful
fluorescent lights and things. It's the lighting is beautiful. There's
bookshelves on either side of you. There's some can there's
a candle in the middle. There's a beautiful like is
that real old brick or is that a wallpaper?
Speaker 4 (04:16):
That's real old brick? Oh? God, the building?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Oh you did it?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Anyway, there's books, and there's you've got the book behave
sitting behind you. And I looked at that, and then
I looked up the top at the on air the
fluoro on air, which is a very cool lighting sign
that you've that you've turned backwards mirror image, so I
can't read it. And you you didn't realize that all
(04:45):
of your books were facing the right way, but on
air was backwards. I'm like, there's so much to be
read on this screen, now, could you know?
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Because here's what happened. Because I know the listeners dying
to know, like why is that sign? Back words? I
would imagine eighty percent of them don't even give a shit.
But because we don't want the minority to be like overshadowed,
I'm going to go into it, and because I have
mirror my image or some weird setting on my zoom,
(05:15):
so when I look at that, it was backwards, and
then when I flipped it the other way around, it's
ah on air. I didn't realize that. Everybody else looking
at me sees it and it says Rihano. So now
it's my choices are either look like a complete dickhead
or change my name to Rihano Capuccio, which is what
I'm considering it. So write us in let us know.
(05:38):
Do you like the name Rihanno Capuccio. If you do, fantastic.
If you don't, I'll just I'll just flip the sign around.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
You just mentioned before that you're rereading Man Search for Meaning.
What has made you return to that book.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
I'm in a course and it was assigned to us,
so I thought, yeah, I've read this before. But it's
so amazing how you could read a book like that,
because I think I've read through it once. I gave
it a proper read, and then I gave it an
improper read. I just went through and read the highlights.
But I guess that's a proper read. Right. You go back,
(06:19):
you read the highlights and then reading it now it's
a completely different book.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Tell me more.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Well, I first read it, I thought, and I was
going through that thing in my life where everything that
has happened to me, And I'm not comparing anything I've
ever struggled with with being in a concentration camp. That
is absolutely absurd, Like I think I would trade my
entire childhood like to avoid a day there. But I
(06:48):
was very much in a place where I wanted to
read a story, or I didn't know I wanted to
read that story. But what I got from it was
a human being who was the most desperate situation anyone
can ever imagine, where everything had been taken from him.
What doctor Victor Frankel called the last of the human
(07:09):
freedoms is what he retained to choose his own attitude
in any given set of circumstances, to choose his own way.
And I thought, Wow, how meaning can triumph over the
greatest levels of adversity. This is such an inspiring book,
And now reading it, it just filled me with disgust,
(07:31):
like how human beings could be so deeply depraved and
sedistic with no self reflection to stop them in their tracks.
And it still arrives at the same conclusion that in
the best of circumstances, meaning makes life worth living rather
(07:53):
than just empty and hedonistic. Not taking anything away from hedonism,
I'm a fan, but in microduces or in the worst
possible scenario that you can imagine, meaning is so much
more fortifying than apathy. And you know, there's a couple
(08:16):
of things that really catch me in the second read.
Have you ever read the book?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, ages ago, and I want to reread it because,
much like you're describing now, I feel like we we
take a lot out of what we read, and then
when we revisit it later, there's it's like reading a whole.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
New, new book.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Because you're a different person, you have different ideas. Some
of that knowledge got embedded forever, some of it might
have slipped away from the conscious mind. And yeah, so
I'm going to I'm probably going to read it straight
after talking to you. Now.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yeah, now that you've seen like how cynical I've become
from one read to the next, I wonder how far
they fallen. I don't know. I think I don't think
I'm cynical. I don't think I'm a cynical personal skeptical,
definitely not cynical. That doesn't make any sense to me,
(09:12):
and I think cynicism's bullshit anyway. Like most people who
are cynical, I don't believe them. If you tell me
you're a skeptic, I believe you, And I think skepticism
has a lot of advantages. If you tell me you're
a cynic, I think for some people it's just truly
where they've arrived. But for most people, it's like, oh,
(09:32):
you are a deeply disappointed idealist. You're someone who at
one point was highly empathetic and sensitive to the world
around you, and basically this is a mask for your disappointment.
I don't even know if I'm right on that, but
I'm pretty sure that that fits a lot of people.
And I think I'm just in a different space right
(09:57):
now where I'm reading it. And it's one thing we
hear when we hear about any holocaust and rightfully say
never again. But it wasn't never again. It has happened
to groups of people since, and I just think there's
just something and I hate to arrive at this, especially
(10:19):
on such an inspiring podcast, but sometimes I'm just like,
what the fuck is wrong with us. Not us as
in me and you and our listeners, we're amazing, but
us as as human beings do we not learn from?
Like what does it take? Like what is the case
(10:42):
study in episodes of human history that suck that are
depraved and dark and terrifying. I mean, I think it's
worse than like watching a horror film imagining these things.
One because it actually happened, two because it goes places
is that's even more terrifying. But what's the example we
(11:05):
need before it's like, we need to get better because
it's always like, oh those people over there, evil evil people.
It's never like I never have any of that in me. Right,
it's not us, it's not our society, you know, it's
it's the Germans. But you know it's not actually because
(11:27):
Germany was the most civilized country in the world, which
probably led pave the way to allowing that to happen.
And here in the United States, straight after the Nuremberg Trials,
we had Stanley Milgrim in his experiments, and you know,
he was testing the can never happen here kind of
(11:48):
a god. I don't know how how well that aged,
but he proved in his experiments. Yeah, you know, what
it can. It's not it's not a German thing, it's
not a thing with the Yanks, It's a human thing.
I think we have to take that quite seriously, like
how could something let this happen and we not learn
(12:12):
from it and we repeat it in other parts of
the world over and over.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I love that you've brought this into the conversation because
when I was getting ready to come and chat to you,
I was thinking wondering what we might talk about, and
I was there's always something on my mind. There's always
a million things in my mind. But the thing that
I've was that I've been churning on recently was the
idea of context, of how everything can polarize itself given
(12:51):
the context that you look at it. So, like, what's
an example, opening up and sharing is gives us connection
and vulnerability and healing in one context, but another person
(13:16):
opening up can open up and overshare and the nuances
are very small, but the impact is very different. It
can be very traumatizing. A pick can be trauma bonding,
it can be opening wounds.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Does that make Do you make sense from that?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So? Like you read this time, Yeah, so you read
this book and in one whatever frame of mind and
current understanding that you're in in the moment and it
has a meaning to you, and then you come back
and you read it at another time when there's other
(13:58):
stuff going on, and the context shifts in what is
taking your attention and the book is holding a completely
different place for you now. And that feels related to
me thinking of that, because I'm always thinking of the
things that I believe and talk about and the things
(14:19):
that I feel like I'm learning or that might be
of value to share, are they or how much bias
do I have? How much am I just how much
self indulgence am I practicing in the middle of what
I think is just generously sharing stuff. It's interesting how
(14:42):
much am I blinked?
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Well, unpack that from me, like what not with you?
In just in general? What would be an example of
an over indulgent sharing.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I guess I'm just thinking about it. I'm doing a
course at the moment around speaking, and we're looking at
content and putting our content together and looking at stories
and what we're sharing and getting quite focused in a
particular area on that, And I guess that's where I've
(15:25):
started stepping right back and thinking about not just what
I'm doing, but what the other people in the group
are doing and how they see it and what they're
putting together, And.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I don't know. It's just made me really observe that
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I don't know if I can explain it very well,
that idea of context. Does this matter? Is this valuable?
Is it really valuable? And is the way that I
share it valuable? Or is it valuable in a specific context?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
And if it is?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Am I aware of that?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
So I've seen people from the stage at conferences get
up and they both tell very personal stories, and I've
heard the audience around me say with you know, speaker A,
oh my goodness, I was so inspired by that. That
was like such an amazing session. And they're talking about
(16:29):
something that's very personal from their story, and then speaker
BE will do the same thing. I'm like, oh my god,
all he did was fucking talk about himself the whole time.
And they're almost angry, like I want I want that
hour back. What's the difference? What's the difference between two
people that tell their story and they get two totally
(16:49):
different responses. I mean, it's who's in the audience and
where they are, Like whenever you're sharing something, you're going
to impact some people like I'm offended for whatever reason,
or I don't know, maybe no reason. You're going to
impact other people like I'm deeply contributed to right now.
I think that was meaningful. I'm grateful I was here
(17:11):
for that, and there's gonna be everywhere else in between.
Doctor Victor Frankel had some insights because we're talking about
man search for me. You know what's curious, a little
sidebar talk about self indulgence. I have to always be
hesitant that my ideas are in any way original, because
I've always believed that to really discover yourself where and
(17:35):
you know, again the self help antidote, you know, love
self help, but also constructive criticism. You have to go
inside yourself and soul search and understand you. And it's like,
my whole my whole identity and the whole conception of
who I am is based on how I interact with
the world, how the world interacts back. And I feel like,
(17:56):
to really discover yourself and to refine yourself, yes there's
things that I need to look at in here, but
a lot of it's out there, and I think that
is kind of a litmus test. You tell when you're
telling your story, where is it aimed? Who is it
aimed at? Like if there was a spotlight to indicate
(18:16):
the direction that story is going. Is it over your head?
Is it on you? Or is it on your audience?
Or is it on you know, mom, dad, your spouse?
Like who is the intended target beneficiary of that story?
And doesn't mean you're going to get it right all
the time. And I think getting it right is a
(18:36):
really stupid expectation. It's it's it's almost like a recipe
for stagnation in and of itself. But you'll get it
right more of the time by just being really clear,
where is this aiming, Who is this story about? Who
is this sharing about? Is it about me? Or am
I using it as a medium to to conceptualize something
(18:59):
for someone other than me.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I went into to this course identifying that there was
that I was able to do that excuse me. I
think what's really interesting is understanding the mechanics of what
you do. And I've never looked at because I've never
done courses in speaking before. I've just I've just found
(19:28):
myself in spaces. I started sharing stories I was in
networking groups and it grew from there. So there was
I just adapted to the environment. I knew what I
wanted to share, and I took on feedback and I
tried to keep my eyes open to giving value. And
so there was some boxes being ticked and I'm like, awesome,
(19:50):
I'm cool, I'm ticking those boxes. And then we're going
into kind of the mechanics of why and how people
connect and why and how you know how people do that,
and I I think it's really interesting because as I'm
learning that, it's trying to identify where I was naturally
doing it and how when it was just happening. And
(20:10):
it's kind of when I think about I always talk
about it in coaching boxing. I was not a natural,
naturally talented boxer. It took me. I wasn't coordinated to
understand how to move my body and do things correctly.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Took a lot of bloody work.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
It took a lot of cognitive understanding and learning how
to feel my body and understand which part of my
body I was focusing on and what has to move
and what has to fire, and how I hold myself.
It's really quite complex, and I just persevered at it
and now I like to teach that, and it feels
like the same thing as I always tell people, you
(20:49):
can be a great boxer, or someone can be a
great boxer and not necessarily a great coach, because they
were so natural at the art of boxing that they'd
never had to understand how it feels and how to
describe it to all the range of other people that
wouldn't understand why it's not just naturally happening. Why doesn't
(21:10):
my punch naturally do that? I don't know what you
mean when you say this, whereas I didn't get that,
so I had to break down the mechanics of it.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
And this I almost not that I'm.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Saying that I'm a great speaker or a great but
I there was components of the speaking process that obviously
came naturally, and now I'm reverse engineering and going, oh,
I don't know how. I don't know if I did that.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
I can't remember. I just did it. I feel like
that boxing coach.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of value. But to
get there, you had to go through different stages of
motor learning, and the first stage of motor learning is cognitive.
It's like, okay, I'm like driving a car ten and
two ten in two okay, foot on the brake or
shift second cure, and you've got all this stuff going on,
(22:04):
like what's going on? Both my legs moving and it's
a lot, but you have to go through that to
get to the point where you're relying a bit more appropriate,
receptive for acuity, and then it's it's automated automatic. So
I think that's the same thing with speaking. So you
could just turn that on because you have to learn
(22:25):
what you do. Not only that could be correct and
improved upon, but when you're at your very best, what
does that look like? I think that's equally important. So
you walk into an auditorium and it's the worst day
of your life, right you. Let's say you overslapt you
didn't sleep well the night before, you're exhausted, you just
(22:49):
have tons of brain fog. You're running on caffeine fumes.
I don't mean, is there such a thing as caffeine fumes.
There's got to be it now if there's anything that
they're doing with coffee, technology is happening in Melbourne. So
you're running on caffeine fumes and it's like you can
(23:09):
still have a great presentation because you've gone through so
many reps to create on demand, but you're not really
going through reps until you know what it is that
you're repeating. You're now if you get up there and
you wing one hundred presentations, that's not one hundred times
at that. That's kind of like one hundred random things
(23:30):
that you can't put together. So it's that deliberate intension,
letting go progressively and then being able to go, Okay,
what's this about? Oh that topic? Yeah, I could talk
on that. Wait how much time to wait? You're changing
the topic. It's five minutes before I go. Can I
talk about Yeah? I could do that, and you just go.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I hijacked the conversation away from the mentor's remaining though,
And I want to go back there because I want
to know more about what drew you to the current
context of it.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I'm not even sure I know. Maybe I just got
old and cantankerously. I was young, hopeful and optimistic and
now after so many like business ventures failed and broken hearts,
and who knows, I don't know what the story is
behind that, Or maybe I just have a sobering, more
(24:34):
balanced perspective. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing.
I know that. When I was in my twenties, I
was just because I felt like I needed so much momentum,
almost like almost like a you know, I'm flying quantus.
You got to put that throttle all the way down
and hold it down if you're ever going to get
(24:54):
off the runway, and once you get off the runway
you can pull back on that. I think that's how
flying goes. But I needed to have that throttle down
fall on. So for me, everything was about how do
I use this? Everything's about what's optimistic about this? Where
now I'm kind of more balanced. I'm like, no, there's
not only one type of person that you need to be.
(25:16):
There's not only you know, one type of thinking that's
correct thinking. Everything else is not. So I see things
through so many different lenses and layers because I see
what's beautiful and inspiring about that book, and I also
see like, wow, okay, this is this is truly disgusting,
(25:38):
and like, it's interesting what I find disgusting in that book.
But I think your connection to the public speaking is
really interesting because we are talking about how to utilize tools.
I just realized I probably got a lot of my
philosophy on self help and growth from man search for meeting.
I didn't even realize it walked around. It was probably
(26:01):
that one that one line fairly early in the book
that you know, I committed to memory, I highlighted. I
went back. Success like happiness cannot be pursued. It must
ensue as an unintended side effect of one's personal dedication
to a cause greater than oneself. And the research is
bearing that out. You know, we've talked about happiness, the
(26:21):
pursuit of happiness versus happiness ensuing the side effect, the
consequence of happiness, pursuing that which is meaningful. And I'm like,
that's probably where I first started getting a lot of
those ideas from. And you know, because one thing I
one thing I got from and it wouldn't have mattered
(26:44):
that much to me if I wasn't at this point
in my life. But I probably wouldn't have even caught
the statement. But Victor Frankel said, all suffering is relative.
That's exactly what Charlie Palum said when he was on
my show. It's relative because I was out with a
group of friends and there are just some people that
(27:05):
just irritate me, and that number is getting like deeper
and wider as I get older. I don't know, maybe
it's me, it's probably me, But it was one of
these because there's these comments that you're running a racket,
you're pretending that it's positive, or you're pretending that, oh
my god, wow, you're you're so like you're so school
(27:28):
of hard knocks. But what you're actually communicating, if there
were subtitles under it, is like you're bitter, hateful and
you're emotionally fragile. Like it's not coming off this way
at all. And it was just talking about people have
gone through really bad things and because of that they
see the world a certain way and they struggle and
(27:48):
it's like, oh yeah, but and in the comment was
everyone's got everyone, everyone's got their stuff. So it's like, nah,
you're telling me Victor Frankel, right, and and my divorce
hypothetically everyone's got our stuff. Now, that's not the same stuff.
(28:09):
And if you think it's the same stuff, one fuck off.
Two you really need to unpack that. And it doesn't
matter if it's the same stuff, because like we're either
talking about your stuff or somebody else's stuff. And whilst
(28:31):
your stuff might be relevant to relate to. It doesn't
negate or mitigate something that's not the spirit of empathy,
you know, like think about that next time somebody is
like going through something. Put that thought in your head. Well,
everyone's got their stuff. Does that decrease or increase the
distance emotionally between you and that person? Try that out?
(28:55):
I mean, not if it's something like really bad, like
start small, like they my magic coffee was horrible this morning,
Like start there. Well, everyone's got their stuff, but it
and a lot of times I think that's a shield
because you might not be able to deal with the
weight of stuff. But then you have people like Charlie
(29:16):
plum Pow at the Hanoi Hilton. You have Victor Frankel
prisoner in four different concentration camps, and they're not walking
around like everyone's got their stuff. They're like, No, suffering
is relative, and depending upon what you're capable of dealing
with and what you have going on, suffering kind of
(29:40):
it feels a vacuum. It'll take up as much space
in your life as it can. So I'm not comparing
the camp to the divorce, but the divorce can be
absolutely excruciating and some of the things like, well, you know,
if you think this is bad, you should take a
(30:01):
walk through the burn unit of I don't get those.
I think those are false equivalence. I think that is
a society that is either unwilling or for whatever personal,
deep seated reason to protect yourself, incapable of just sitting
with someone for a bit. The burn unit is horrific.
(30:25):
Wish that on anyone. The burn unit is not the
antidote or a way to dismiss someone who just like
lost a spouse or a parent or a best mate
or something like that. I think when people have really
gone through what I've observed, So when people have really
(30:47):
gone through some dark shit, it either makes them a
much worse version of who they were, or it brings
out this uncommon empathy. I wonder what are all the
(31:07):
variables that lead to one direction versus another direction? And
I think purpose is not the variable. I don't know
how it would make that determination, but it's definitely one
of them. So when you like this book, when you
talk about okay, well storytelling, is this self indulgent or
is this something that has viable value for someone? Well,
(31:32):
what's the meaning behind that story? Like that? It's at
the root of everything. I think it makes us more resilient.
I think because a lot of times we can tell
ourselves a lot of stories and read our own headlines.
It kind of illuminates our path in front of us.
So it's a light and a compass. I think this
(31:54):
book touches upon every aspect in our life that's essential
to what does it actually mean to be a human being?
Like what is that?
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's a really interesting time at the moment because there's
so much exposure to all of our everybody's collective processing
and understanding of life and others and us. And I
think coupling that with how we connect or fail to
(32:34):
in twenty twenty five compared to how we used to.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Is.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
So I'm in a conversation yesterday with one of my
guests and hearing about their travel, and I was thinking
about travel and how healing and life changing travel is,
and essentially in my mind, I just kept landing on Yeah,
because we step out of all the doing and we
just connect with people. Take take away the connection to
(33:05):
people and culture. Culture is just connecting to people in
a way where you are open to learning and hearing
about how life is. There like if you take the
people out of the travel, then the travel.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Is no longer.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It's not the it's not the soil that you land on,
it's not the material that the house is built out of.
But yeah, and I was just thinking, like, it's just
one time of everyone's life where they put down so
much of identity and expectation and I am this and
(33:44):
I have to do that, and they escape for a moment,
and in escaping for a moment, they are open to
being with people and it.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Changes our life.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
It is so life changing talking to people about where
they've traveled, when they've traveled somewhere new, and what it's
done to them. And it doesn't matter what the story is.
It can be visiting a temple, or it can be
climbing a mountain, or it can be sitting with someone
in a shop in a country they've never been, and
they feel completely changed by the energy of the experience.
(34:21):
And I was just like, I love that.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
What.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
I don't know where that tangent came from.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Do you low the bouncing ball?
Speaker 4 (34:35):
It's quite a radic I don't know what happened there,
but I think we've talked. We've talked about everything on
the show where you're on your deathbed when you know time,
time is finite, and you know you have a pretty
good idea about how finite it is. We're talking about
a hospice situation with that show. The show I told,
(35:01):
oh God, I've had so many conversations. It's like, who
did I talk to? There was a show on on
Hulu out here Dying for Sex I think it was
was it Hulu? Anyway? It was about It was about
this woman who she was in remission from cancer, and
then the cancer came back and it was really clear, like, Okay,
she's probably not going in remission again. And it just
(35:22):
forces her to evaluate her life. It's like a giant
mirror being thrust in her face and how she deals
with all of these unreconciled issues that she has with
you know, childhood trauma situations her her mother had put
her in and like with her current husband and all
(35:44):
these and there's no time to figure this out and
what she's going through and what becomes increasingly more and
more important to her. I think it all comes down
to me and you, right, I mean, not meeting you.
We're not that important like us people. It's gonna be
the little things, isn't it. It's gonna be the people
(36:06):
we meet, the little things that we do, our little routines.
That's what's probably gonna matter more than anything. It's not
gonna be oh wow, what type of cards did I drive?
Like what was my title? You know, and my income?
What was that? You know, that'll only matter to the
degree where it touched other people or I don't know,
(36:27):
maybe it was like a seventy one Chevy Chavelle Supersport.
I'd like to think that would still matter. But other
than that, those things are going to be irrelevant, and
the things that bring us, Like in the camps, where
(36:48):
I really had an emotional response was not the guards
and like the captains, the commanders of the camp. I
had an emotional response to the coppos that were prisoners
put in charge of other prisoners. And he's talking about
(37:09):
the brutality, and on the one hand, it's kind of like, God,
you're a prisoner yourself, and it's like you're doing more
than self preservation, Like when Victor Frankel's saying that there
were coppos who were more brutal than any guard, And
(37:32):
it's like, on the other hand, if you think about
everything that would make a human being truly miserable and
keep them stuck there and have zero dignity about who
they are. It's behavior like that because all things being equal,
and I'm not saying we don't engage in like health
(37:53):
and fitness practices and get a good amount of sleep.
The thing that really enhances our well being comes from
one another, like that kind of stuff, like being kind
to one another, really caring about someone else instead of
apathetic or hostile or something I see emerging in society.
(38:19):
I don't know if you've noticed this where people deeply
want others to be punished to the maximum degree for
the slightest infraction. Like have you noticed that kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
You know?
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I mean those people have always been there. But like
you said, we see everything all we're like processing a
collective consciousness right now, Like what is it like to
be you? What is that experience?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
You know?
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Like Harps always says what's it like to be you?
In terms of reflecting the experience others have with you? No, No,
what what experience do you have with yourself? Like where
does that come from? Talk about like happiness and things
that block you from ever feeling happy? That's probably it
(39:15):
for most people. I mean, if you're truly a psychopath,
I don't really think it matters or impacts happiness that much.
But for the vast majority of people who are just
so injured or afraid or disappointed, and we're going through
life taking it out on other people not realizing that
(39:40):
is the one point of interaction within your control that
you can utilize to not only lighten the weight of
someone's day, but how much life in general ways for you.
(40:00):
The act weighs ounces, The consequence of negligence weighs tons
when you think about it. I mean, we all do it.
Maybe we've all had our you know, we've all had
our moments, but as a daily practice that you're not
even reflecting, like did you did you read the thing
(40:21):
that you posted? Did you listen to the thing you
said to that person? Were you present at the table
where we're talking about people struggling, like, well, everyone's got
their stuff? Did you hear the tone that came out
in not just because I'm going it didn't sound exactly
like that, but not too dissimilar, Like did you did
(40:42):
you hear like the inflection? What is that like? And
I'm like, what what would it sound like, not just
the context, but the tone. What would it feel like
coming out of your mouth if it was coming from
a very different place, a place that wouldn't make you
miserable enough to want that for another person? Start there.
(41:04):
I think.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
It's interesting, Yeah, like having an awareness on the present moment,
and because because it's easy to look back and reflect
and see where we've come from and where we've grown
(41:28):
and where we're what we've been through.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
And that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
But to a degree, I don't know if maybe I'm
the only one, maybe I'm slow, But there's just times
when I go, You're you've been causing yourself pain in
your attitude and you and why couldn't you see that before?
(41:57):
Like there's a version of it right now that I
feel where I go, you've been You've been telling a
story that's been keeping you trapped in an area of
your life, and it's not the way. It's not aligning
with the story you're telling yourself, and that is keeping
you stuck and in, you know, like ineffective and unhappy
(42:23):
in areas not huge things, but I find that really interesting.
It's like self help in inverted commas or self awareness
is this ebbing and flowing, continuous thing that when you're
never really fully you never master it because you're always
(42:44):
ebbing and flowing through different states, emotional states, frames of mind,
circumstances and environments and situations that inflame you periodically, and
the US shift the window you're looking through that affirm
and when you're very like I watched this with people
(43:09):
in coaching, is when we are working on ourself, you
have to be careful that that doesn't just become a
perpetual I'm not good enough, because that's just a very
strong message that I'm not good enough. So I have
to work I'm getting better and I'm not good enough.
And it's like you can do that for years and
all of a sudden, you'll actually you've improved a lot
(43:30):
that your attitude about yourself is that you're still shit.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
And for me, that was one of the things that
started shifting my focus to what's going on out there?
Like what do you want to be better at? Like
if you could be the top twenty percent of anyone
working in any field, what field would that be? Like?
Why what would that do for you? I'm not just
talking about I'm not talking about materially, I'm talking about
(43:59):
in tra personally, emotionally, your state of well being. What's
the value that that would be built on? Because when
you do that, those sacrifices to get there are life
giving in and of themselves. So what's that out there?
Because if you're always looking in that's another thing you
can get highly neurotic. You're right about that, Like it's like, Okay,
(44:24):
what's going on with me? How am I feel I'm
not good enough? Like this deep sense of shame And
it's like you keep going over and over that line
in your head and that story. You can convince yourself
of anything. In some cases maybe it's true. But non
stop incessant self focus, I think that's like really bad
(44:48):
for your psyching. And it's like there's there's no root,
Like there's no room for perfection when you're completely focused
out there because whatever it is that perfection is staving
off where it's like, oh, I want to be accepted,
but if I do this, oh they're going to see
like I'm different, or maybe I don't want to be
(45:10):
judged harshly whatever. When I'm focusing on something that's bigger
than me, a contribution, it's on that thing. I'm going
to get better and better. But it's not because oh
I'm not good enough, I'm not good I need to
do this, I need to I think that's a lot
of times where I think we're going into what really
irritates me about the whole do the work. Yeah, of course,
(45:33):
it's just think about what that does to someone who
doesn't have a how or struggling with a why and
they know that they're kind of stuck in limbo and
it doesn't feel good and I want to move forward.
It's like, you're not doing enough and you're not doing this,
and it's like, if you're doing that, well, then you
must not be doing that. Oh you're doing that too well.
(45:53):
I know you're not doing this. And it's like, we
go through as many levels as we can until we
find something that someone's guilty for. It's like, what does
that do to them? Like if they're not connecting stuff
out there in the world to something that extends beyond them,
that could be that could be a constant loop in
their head. So it just I used to go to
(46:19):
these sessions, these big professional personal development self help events,
and one of the things it was funny because it
was right at the time that I started hanging out
with Paul Taylor. It's so funny because Paul came into
my life as my aspirations to be a motivational speaker
(46:44):
a self help speaker went out of my life. Those
two aspirations almost bumped up against each other, that's how
close they were. And one of the things I started
noticing is anyone who comes in here with any level
of self not satisfaction but self accept din'ts is chastised
by the entire group and the message, no, you need
(47:06):
the next book, you need the next course. You got
to work on this. What do you mean you're happy
with who you are here? Don't you see? You're really
fucked up. You just don't know it. And it's like,
what's this person doing. They're like raising a family, they're
going out, they love their career, they love their spouse,
they this person seems like the most mentally healthy person
(47:27):
in the room, and all the rest of us are
freaking out like people. We get upset, like almost teary
eyed at this person's unwillingness to acknowledge how screwed up
they actually are. And I'm thinking, oh, this this guy's great,
Like I want to get to there. And it's like,
(47:47):
oh my god, the whole machine, the whole mechanism, the
whole culture is you're broken and here's how you need
to get fixed and there's only one way to do that.
And I was like, well, how are we arriving at
these conclusions because it seems like the gurus know everything.
And then Paul Taylor was coming into my life and
it was like, you don't know anything until you start
(48:10):
to take a look inside the brain. And it's like, okay,
that makes sense to me. You know what they say,
like when the student is ready, Paul Taylor appears. I
think that's how that's saying goes. But I was like, yeah,
there's there's something. Somebody is running a racket here. Something
is not right. And when I started hanging out with Paul,
(48:33):
one of the things my friend Richard had called me
and said, oh, we're doing We're doing a whole tour
in Australia. We're going to be out here for a
while and I want you to come out. I want
you to come out on the speaking tour. I want
you to be a big part of it. And it's like, oh,
just one thing I don't know how this is going
to go, so I'm not sure I'll be able to
pay you. I'm like, what are you talking about, Like
(48:56):
thirty days of work straight and no pay. It's like,
all right, I'm hopping on a plane. I'm there. So
for me where I was, I was so ready to
get out of that environment and it changed my life.
It didn't work out really well those sessions. It led
to the creation of PTA Global. It framed a big
(49:17):
event that we had meeting in the minds. But I
think it was a big transition where it's like things
are complicated. Don't make so many assumptions, because it's staggering
how little you know about what's going on in your
own head, not to mention somebody else. I think there
are certain there are certain emblems of behavior we shouldn't accept,
(49:38):
Like someone's behavior is blatantly hurting somebody else, especially if
there's intention behind that, that's not acceptable. It doesn't matter
what happened to you. But all these other little conclusions
and judgments that we have with so much fevor, like
I don't even know why we'd be so invested in
(49:58):
it anyway, it's kind of weird. Yeah, you don't know
that much to make that conclusion, and that's what started
me on this journey.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
Do You're a no fun story?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
When I talk about my first boxing boxing fight, which
obviously was a big shift in the direction of my life.
That started through I'd met someone in business networking that
was from America. I'd traveled to Australia. They'd come and
visited our meeting and they'd reached out to Caver one
(50:30):
on one catch up, and when we were having one
catch up, they said to me, I'm staying at the
Cullen and I'm going to Akimodum, which is the gym
downstairs there, and there's this guy that's doing a talk
and I think you'd really love it. He's doing a
(50:51):
talk on resilience and he's an ex a Navy aircre
officer or whatever the fuck Paul is. Anyway, so I
went this whole My whole boxing journey started because I
went to that talk and then I got a tour
of vacuum Otum and the basement boxing downstairs, and that
was the fight. That was my first fight, and I
signed up after hearing Paul speak on resilience and the
(51:16):
how physic hard doing hard physical things changes our mind
and our mindset and our brain and.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
Yeah, boom, all started with old mate.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
It's funny like looking looking back, it wasn't until I
started sharing the story of my first fight that I realized,
oh my, that's kind of come full circle like.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
To where it began.
Speaker 4 (51:43):
It's a very incestuous group. We have, like such a
small world. How we all like, how we're all tethered
to each other by seemingly random, weird events, But it's
all the same circle. So we were all there the
whole time in the periphery, and we just got pulled
closer and closer together. Now Poll does some remarkable work.
(52:05):
I mean, I think I love the things that he's
curious about that he researches. He's extremely interesting as a
present as an individual, and he's he comes across extremely
to me anyway, academic and passionate at the same time.
(52:27):
I remember going out and speaking with Paul because when
we first started, like he was the science guy and
I was the application guy around behavior change. So it
was neuroscience and me just starting to make that transition
again from self help coaching. Right, I'll ask you a
few questions. Find out what's wrong with you tell you
(52:49):
how to fix it, not coaching to actual coaching. So
I was making that shift. So I was the practical
application person. He was the egghead, and you know, we
would we would like share seminars, like he'd do one section,
I do another. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it.
(53:10):
When he stopped being on the road with us is
when I think I started getting into lanes, too far
into lanes that, Yeah, I don't think I really belonged
going there.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (53:27):
I don't think it was I don't want to say
my passion because I'm passionate about it, but I don't
think it completely aligned with who I was and my purpose.
I went so far down the neuroscience rabbit hole because
I thought, oh, he's not on the road with us,
I kind of need to Like this is because I
(53:48):
realized how important it is for methodologies to be informed
by neuroscience, because otherwise, like, what are we actually talking
about here? So I went really far down that road.
But I think that there's kind of like a balance,
And what I really missed was how that balance between
(54:10):
me and Paul worked itself out in terms of what
we brought to the team. So Paul's I think a
massive impact on a lot of people. I know he
had a massive impact on me.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
I remember reaching out to him and asking him, asking
if I could just follow him around when he was
doing big corporate speaking jobs, and I was really I
was really fortunate that he said, yep, and let me,
you know, just come in and be in the room
as hes an inverted Commas assistant, just so that I could,
(54:46):
you know, get a sense of what people how people
are doing this.
Speaker 4 (54:52):
M Yeah, Like I remember Paul took me under his
wing as a mentor because I had asked him if
I can like follow him around dressed as Gargamel when
out smurfing. I didn't even know what smurfing was, but
he showed me a strange and disturbing world I wish
I had never seen, but had so much fun, and
(55:12):
I had the Monk's outfit for years after until there
was a fight with a hitchhiker in the woods a
few years ago, and there was there was a lot
of there was a lot of alcohol involved and let's
just say, yeah, the the Monk's outfit did not make it,
but I had that Monk's outfit from smurfing, which I
(55:35):
learned from Paul Taylor. Do you do you not like
know what smurfing is.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
But no, please explain.
Speaker 4 (55:42):
It's when grown ups paint themselves blue and dressed like
Smurf characters from the cartoon The Smurfs, And then there's
always a Gargamel, which is very risky because he was
the monk, the monk that hated the Smurfs. He was
(56:02):
like the Smurf adversary. So if you go out smurfing
as Gargomel, you're taking a risk. Your safety is not guaranteed.
But first time dressing up in that outfit, it was
in San Diego. So we have a baseball team here
at the Padres, right, And I didn't know this at
(56:24):
the time. The mascot is a Friar, a monk. So
I had rocked up to the pub I would say
about fifteen minutes before everyone else got there, and someone
had bought me a beer and they were cheering, and
I was like, Gody, Wow, they really love the Smurfs
in this town, don't they. And I had no idea
(56:48):
that I was dressed like their mascot. And then Taylor
rocks up as brainy Smurf as you would and we
had a friend of ours Jen, I won't give her
a surname, and you know she's blonde, so she was
painted blue a smurf fat and the pub went from
being highly enthusiastic to extremely confused. So I was like, Okay,
(57:10):
this has nothing to do with the Smurfs, does it.
I didn't give a shit as long as I got
like a freak guinness or two out of it, all
good and that and that is an example of a
self indulgent story tip that has to do with anything
(57:33):
anyone wants to hear. So, yeah, you're you're welcome. You
could take that back to your course and go, yeah,
do that. So what did your course say about, you know,
self indulgent stories versus like, what's their take on delivering
a story?
Speaker 2 (57:51):
So we're working through a process which we haven't done yet.
So all we've done so far is decide on our
stories and how we're going to tell them. That the
unpacking and delivery of lessons comes in the next phase
of how we work through this.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
So I'm looking forward to.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
What I loved going into this was what will I
learn That I had no idea I needed to learn,
and to find someone in this space that I felt
comfortable with, that I felt I respected, that I wanted to,
that I liked what they were delivering, and that I
trusted to go through. This was big things. I feel
(58:34):
like there's a lot of there's a lot of people
in the space that are like, I'll teach you how
to do this, and they don't know. I'm just I'm
wary of process, you know, like, what are you teaching?
How are you teaching?
Speaker 3 (58:49):
It? Is it?
Speaker 2 (58:50):
Does it take into account the things that matter to
me when I'm sharing?
Speaker 4 (58:55):
So so you resonated with the presentations style of this person,
You're like, sign up for that course?
Speaker 2 (59:03):
Yes, thank you for taking what I was turning into
a fucking way too big explanation and condensed in it.
Speaker 3 (59:09):
Yes, so resonating.
Speaker 4 (59:11):
I feel the same way because I've worked with people
like that and it's energizing. I've also signed up for
things and I'm like, watching the demonstrations of this person presenting,
I'm like, I wouldn't sit through the seminary. Why am
I even here? That doesn't mean that that person doesn't
(59:32):
have anything to teach you, but I think having a
teacher you resonate with, it's a lot more effective than
it's like, Okay, I paid my money, Let's see what
I can learn from this two very different experiences.
Speaker 2 (59:43):
I'm very much a unscripted speaker into it, well, yes
and no. Like I do a lot of planning when
I'm speaking, but I don't plan the words I'm going
to use when I tell the story. I understand what
aspects of story I'm going to use in order to
(01:00:04):
lead into the topics that I'm exposing. But as we're
looking at the process of this, I'm learning a lot
about the importance. But it's challenging because in order to
do that, there's parts of this course where we we're
looking at scripting and we're looking at time. How do
I feel a time allotment? And how do I give like?
(01:00:27):
How do like? I don't know. It's there's challenging aspects.
There's aspects that are challenging me a lot, and you've
got to be open to I have to be open
to being the beginner in this and going Okay, I'm
going to park all of my I know, I cling
to what's comfortable and yep, it served me really well,
(01:00:49):
and maybe I'll come back to aspects of it, but
for now, I've got to put it in the corner
and leave it there and shut up and fucking listen
and try the things that I'm being told to try
before I say whether or not they fit. And maybe
it'll be worse. Maybe it'll be worse before I'm better
(01:01:10):
because it's a new thing and I'm going to be
shit at it when I try and deliver it. And
maybe that's like, are you willing to be shit shitter
before you're far better? Or do you want to cling
to Nope, I'm I'm at this level and I'm not
going to drop down any levels for any period of
(01:01:32):
time in order to reach higher levels. Like that's that
self indulgent? I think so, But it's challenging. It's really
challenging me.
Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
Why. I don't think you've said anything on this podcast
that is self indulgent. But I will say that was
a master class on how to approach to learning and
skill development. Like that attitude, that's perfect, Like I'm so
happy that you're in this class. I think you're going
to get a lot out of it, regardless, that's exactly
that's exactly what it takes.
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
MM, thank you. Do you want to wrap us up?
Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Yeah? It would be really rude if it was like,
all right, so times up, get off my show. I mean, god,
it's like I'm not going to get you back as
a guest anytime soon. Are you my guest or my yours?
I don't even know who's the guest of who here?
Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
But I don't think either of us know anymore.
Speaker 4 (01:02:25):
It's awkward thing like really, like, you know, do we
really need to fuck we.
Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
Get near the engine, I'm like, is it?
Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
Am I a guest?
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Do I do? I?
Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
Do I have to ask permission to.
Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Wrap it up? Or just like how does this happen?
Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
Yeah? Society puts so many labels on us, like who's
the guest, who's the host? Does it really matter?
Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
One thing I do know is that if I don't
nudge you to wrap it up, I'll still be here
at four pm this afternoon, which will be some ridiculous
hour of the morning for you.
Speaker 4 (01:02:54):
Does my wife know that? So anyway, so as we're
into the wrap up, which I think we've given plenty
of hints, none of you should be surprised at what's
coming at this point. I just want to thank you
all for listening, because you're the most important part of
this show. If it wasn't for you, it'd just be
(01:03:15):
two weird people like telling shit stories to one another.
Hopefully they didn't come off that way for you. And yeah,
so thank you. Thank you for listening to self help
Atidude and Roll with the Punches. Tiffany, thank you for
being my guest host and cover all bases. Love chatting
(01:03:37):
with you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Thanks Bobby, Thanks everyone.
Speaker 4 (01:03:42):
That was a horrible wrap up. You know what, I
don't care. It was from the heart.
Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
She said, it's now and ever I got fighting in
my blood.
Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
Coastcart Ucas scared at a countchard three
She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm tiff This is role with the Punches and we're
turning life's hardest hits into wins.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Nobody wants to go to court, and don't.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
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(00:38):
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Speaker 4 (00:52):
Tiffany Cook, Welcome to our show.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Bobby Capuccio. It's so good to see you.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
It's so good to see you back on your show.
Mine antidote, roll with the punchers, rolling with the antidote.
That sounds like that sounds like people who are stuck
in a post apocalyptic zombie situation, which I hope it
is not the case.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I miss I really miss the days of when we
did this every single week, every single week, and there's
a there's a fondness I have around the time that
we're doing that and it's like COVID times, which is
weird to feel fondly about that, But I feel really
fondly about some of the really positive things that that
(01:39):
I connected with, and you were one of them, and
there was real comfort in that, that familiarity that doing
something with somebody every week, and I miss it. I
miss our Yeah, how regular we were able to do
that When I was pumping out way more episodes.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
When you said COVID, I thought you were going to
start reminiscing about the times where we would all do
professional meetings and podcasts, but like, have no trousers on,
Well that's where you were going, but you took it
in a completely different direction. But I loved or I
just love it. It was also beyond COVID. I mean,
we should do a special podcast called beyond COVID. Let's
(02:19):
make a note of that. Do we have that? There's
no one here to make a note of it, so
maybe we won't do that after all. But I loved
our weekly meetings or weekly chats. I look forward to
them now I can say something about bi weekly.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, there's something about the going through things with people
that solidifies your your friendship with them, and I think
about because I think about that whiteboard brainstorming session that
you ran me through in the very beginning, Like I
just remember the beginnings of connecting with you and starting
(02:55):
to work with you and looking up to you so much,
just being so incredibly feeling so incredibly blessed that you
would spend all this time with me and help me
with my personal stuff. And it's just it's cool. I
don't know why I'm thinking of it right now. I'm
obviously feeling nostalgic.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Well, I'm glad you got over it. I'm glad I
got rid of that that damn highchair. My feets to dangle.
People used to have to like look up at me
all the time. It was this weird thing. I was
like my first podcast episodes. That's why I never released
the videos. It was just like my voice and nipples
(03:38):
the entire time. It's like, what's really sad? It took
me six months of episodes before I even noticed for
anyone Han said anything like the Rihano sign behind me
that Craig Harper doesn't give a shit about.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Clearly, So I want to tell the listeners I logged
on and you've got you've got books in your bookcase.
Behind You've got a brilliant background. It's got old, beautiful
fluorescent lights and things. It's the lighting is beautiful. There's
bookshelves on either side of you. There's some can there's
a candle in the middle. There's a beautiful like is
that real old brick or is that a wallpaper?
Speaker 4 (04:16):
That's real old brick? Oh? God, the building?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Oh you did it?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Anyway, there's books, and there's you've got the book behave
sitting behind you. And I looked at that, and then
I looked up the top at the on air the
fluoro on air, which is a very cool lighting sign
that you've that you've turned backwards mirror image, so I
can't read it. And you you didn't realize that all
(04:45):
of your books were facing the right way, but on
air was backwards. I'm like, there's so much to be
read on this screen, now, could you know?
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Because here's what happened. Because I know the listeners dying
to know, like why is that sign? Back words? I
would imagine eighty percent of them don't even give a shit.
But because we don't want the minority to be like overshadowed,
I'm going to go into it, and because I have
mirror my image or some weird setting on my zoom,
(05:15):
so when I look at that, it was backwards, and
then when I flipped it the other way around, it's
ah on air. I didn't realize that. Everybody else looking
at me sees it and it says Rihano. So now
it's my choices are either look like a complete dickhead
or change my name to Rihano Capuccio, which is what
I'm considering it. So write us in let us know.
(05:38):
Do you like the name Rihanno Capuccio. If you do, fantastic.
If you don't, I'll just I'll just flip the sign around.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
You just mentioned before that you're rereading Man Search for Meaning.
What has made you return to that book.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
I'm in a course and it was assigned to us,
so I thought, yeah, I've read this before. But it's
so amazing how you could read a book like that,
because I think I've read through it once. I gave
it a proper read, and then I gave it an
improper read. I just went through and read the highlights.
But I guess that's a proper read. Right. You go back,
(06:19):
you read the highlights and then reading it now it's
a completely different book.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Tell me more.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Well, I first read it, I thought, and I was
going through that thing in my life where everything that
has happened to me, And I'm not comparing anything I've
ever struggled with with being in a concentration camp. That
is absolutely absurd, Like I think I would trade my
entire childhood like to avoid a day there. But I
(06:48):
was very much in a place where I wanted to
read a story, or I didn't know I wanted to
read that story. But what I got from it was
a human being who was the most desperate situation anyone
can ever imagine, where everything had been taken from him.
What doctor Victor Frankel called the last of the human
(07:09):
freedoms is what he retained to choose his own attitude
in any given set of circumstances, to choose his own way.
And I thought, Wow, how meaning can triumph over the
greatest levels of adversity. This is such an inspiring book,
And now reading it, it just filled me with disgust,
(07:31):
like how human beings could be so deeply depraved and
sedistic with no self reflection to stop them in their tracks.
And it still arrives at the same conclusion that in
the best of circumstances, meaning makes life worth living rather
(07:53):
than just empty and hedonistic. Not taking anything away from hedonism,
I'm a fan, but in microduces or in the worst
possible scenario that you can imagine, meaning is so much
more fortifying than apathy. And you know, there's a couple
(08:16):
of things that really catch me in the second read.
Have you ever read the book?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, ages ago, and I want to reread it because,
much like you're describing now, I feel like we we
take a lot out of what we read, and then
when we revisit it later, there's it's like reading a whole.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
New, new book.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Because you're a different person, you have different ideas. Some
of that knowledge got embedded forever, some of it might
have slipped away from the conscious mind. And yeah, so
I'm going to I'm probably going to read it straight
after talking to you. Now.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yeah, now that you've seen like how cynical I've become
from one read to the next, I wonder how far
they fallen. I don't know. I think I don't think
I'm cynical. I don't think I'm a cynical personal skeptical,
definitely not cynical. That doesn't make any sense to me,
(09:12):
and I think cynicism's bullshit anyway. Like most people who
are cynical, I don't believe them. If you tell me
you're a skeptic, I believe you, And I think skepticism
has a lot of advantages. If you tell me you're
a cynic, I think for some people it's just truly
where they've arrived. But for most people, it's like, oh,
(09:32):
you are a deeply disappointed idealist. You're someone who at
one point was highly empathetic and sensitive to the world
around you, and basically this is a mask for your disappointment.
I don't even know if I'm right on that, but
I'm pretty sure that that fits a lot of people.
And I think I'm just in a different space right
(09:57):
now where I'm reading it. And it's one thing we
hear when we hear about any holocaust and rightfully say
never again. But it wasn't never again. It has happened
to groups of people since, and I just think there's
just something and I hate to arrive at this, especially
(10:19):
on such an inspiring podcast, but sometimes I'm just like,
what the fuck is wrong with us. Not us as
in me and you and our listeners, we're amazing, but
us as as human beings do we not learn from?
Like what does it take? Like what is the case
(10:42):
study in episodes of human history that suck that are
depraved and dark and terrifying. I mean, I think it's
worse than like watching a horror film imagining these things.
One because it actually happened, two because it goes places
is that's even more terrifying. But what's the example we
(11:05):
need before it's like, we need to get better because
it's always like, oh those people over there, evil evil people.
It's never like I never have any of that in me. Right,
it's not us, it's not our society, you know, it's
it's the Germans. But you know it's not actually because
(11:27):
Germany was the most civilized country in the world, which
probably led pave the way to allowing that to happen.
And here in the United States, straight after the Nuremberg Trials,
we had Stanley Milgrim in his experiments, and you know,
he was testing the can never happen here kind of
(11:48):
a god. I don't know how how well that aged,
but he proved in his experiments. Yeah, you know, what
it can. It's not it's not a German thing, it's
not a thing with the Yanks, It's a human thing.
I think we have to take that quite seriously, like
how could something let this happen and we not learn
(12:12):
from it and we repeat it in other parts of
the world over and over.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I love that you've brought this into the conversation because
when I was getting ready to come and chat to you,
I was thinking wondering what we might talk about, and
I was there's always something on my mind. There's always
a million things in my mind. But the thing that
I've was that I've been churning on recently was the
idea of context, of how everything can polarize itself given
(12:51):
the context that you look at it. So, like, what's
an example, opening up and sharing is gives us connection
and vulnerability and healing in one context, but another person
(13:16):
opening up can open up and overshare and the nuances
are very small, but the impact is very different. It
can be very traumatizing. A pick can be trauma bonding,
it can be opening wounds.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Does that make Do you make sense from that?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So? Like you read this time, Yeah, so you read
this book and in one whatever frame of mind and
current understanding that you're in in the moment and it
has a meaning to you, and then you come back
and you read it at another time when there's other
(13:58):
stuff going on, and the context shifts in what is
taking your attention and the book is holding a completely
different place for you now. And that feels related to
me thinking of that, because I'm always thinking of the
things that I believe and talk about and the things
(14:19):
that I feel like I'm learning or that might be
of value to share, are they or how much bias
do I have? How much am I just how much
self indulgence am I practicing in the middle of what
I think is just generously sharing stuff. It's interesting how
(14:42):
much am I blinked?
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Well, unpack that from me, like what not with you?
In just in general? What would be an example of
an over indulgent sharing.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I guess I'm just thinking about it. I'm doing a
course at the moment around speaking, and we're looking at
content and putting our content together and looking at stories
and what we're sharing and getting quite focused in a
particular area on that, And I guess that's where I've
(15:25):
started stepping right back and thinking about not just what
I'm doing, but what the other people in the group
are doing and how they see it and what they're
putting together, And.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I don't know. It's just made me really observe that
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I don't know if I can explain it very well,
that idea of context. Does this matter? Is this valuable?
Is it really valuable? And is the way that I
share it valuable? Or is it valuable in a specific context?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
And if it is?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Am I aware of that?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
So I've seen people from the stage at conferences get
up and they both tell very personal stories, and I've
heard the audience around me say with you know, speaker A,
oh my goodness, I was so inspired by that. That
was like such an amazing session. And they're talking about
(16:29):
something that's very personal from their story, and then speaker
BE will do the same thing. I'm like, oh my god,
all he did was fucking talk about himself the whole time.
And they're almost angry, like I want I want that
hour back. What's the difference? What's the difference between two
people that tell their story and they get two totally
(16:49):
different responses. I mean, it's who's in the audience and
where they are, Like whenever you're sharing something, you're going
to impact some people like I'm offended for whatever reason,
or I don't know, maybe no reason. You're going to
impact other people like I'm deeply contributed to right now.
I think that was meaningful. I'm grateful I was here
(17:11):
for that, and there's gonna be everywhere else in between.
Doctor Victor Frankel had some insights because we're talking about
man search for me. You know what's curious, a little
sidebar talk about self indulgence. I have to always be
hesitant that my ideas are in any way original, because
I've always believed that to really discover yourself where and
(17:35):
you know, again the self help antidote, you know, love
self help, but also constructive criticism. You have to go
inside yourself and soul search and understand you. And it's like,
my whole my whole identity and the whole conception of
who I am is based on how I interact with
the world, how the world interacts back. And I feel like,
(17:56):
to really discover yourself and to refine yourself, yes there's
things that I need to look at in here, but
a lot of it's out there, and I think that
is kind of a litmus test. You tell when you're
telling your story, where is it aimed? Who is it
aimed at? Like if there was a spotlight to indicate
(18:16):
the direction that story is going. Is it over your head?
Is it on you? Or is it on your audience?
Or is it on you know, mom, dad, your spouse?
Like who is the intended target beneficiary of that story?
And doesn't mean you're going to get it right all
the time. And I think getting it right is a
(18:36):
really stupid expectation. It's it's it's almost like a recipe
for stagnation in and of itself. But you'll get it
right more of the time by just being really clear,
where is this aiming, Who is this story about? Who
is this sharing about? Is it about me? Or am
I using it as a medium to to conceptualize something
(18:59):
for someone other than me.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I went into to this course identifying that there was
that I was able to do that excuse me. I
think what's really interesting is understanding the mechanics of what
you do. And I've never looked at because I've never
done courses in speaking before. I've just I've just found
(19:28):
myself in spaces. I started sharing stories I was in
networking groups and it grew from there. So there was
I just adapted to the environment. I knew what I
wanted to share, and I took on feedback and I
tried to keep my eyes open to giving value. And
so there was some boxes being ticked and I'm like, awesome,
(19:50):
I'm cool, I'm ticking those boxes. And then we're going
into kind of the mechanics of why and how people
connect and why and how you know how people do that,
and I I think it's really interesting because as I'm
learning that, it's trying to identify where I was naturally
doing it and how when it was just happening. And
(20:10):
it's kind of when I think about I always talk
about it in coaching boxing. I was not a natural,
naturally talented boxer. It took me. I wasn't coordinated to
understand how to move my body and do things correctly.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Took a lot of bloody work.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
It took a lot of cognitive understanding and learning how
to feel my body and understand which part of my
body I was focusing on and what has to move
and what has to fire, and how I hold myself.
It's really quite complex, and I just persevered at it
and now I like to teach that, and it feels
like the same thing as I always tell people, you
(20:49):
can be a great boxer, or someone can be a
great boxer and not necessarily a great coach, because they
were so natural at the art of boxing that they'd
never had to understand how it feels and how to
describe it to all the range of other people that
wouldn't understand why it's not just naturally happening. Why doesn't
(21:10):
my punch naturally do that? I don't know what you
mean when you say this, whereas I didn't get that,
so I had to break down the mechanics of it.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
And this I almost not that I'm.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Saying that I'm a great speaker or a great but
I there was components of the speaking process that obviously
came naturally, and now I'm reverse engineering and going, oh,
I don't know how. I don't know if I did that.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
I can't remember. I just did it. I feel like
that boxing coach.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of value. But to
get there, you had to go through different stages of
motor learning, and the first stage of motor learning is cognitive.
It's like, okay, I'm like driving a car ten and
two ten in two okay, foot on the brake or
shift second cure, and you've got all this stuff going on,
(22:04):
like what's going on? Both my legs moving and it's
a lot, but you have to go through that to
get to the point where you're relying a bit more appropriate,
receptive for acuity, and then it's it's automated automatic. So
I think that's the same thing with speaking. So you
could just turn that on because you have to learn
(22:25):
what you do. Not only that could be correct and
improved upon, but when you're at your very best, what
does that look like? I think that's equally important. So
you walk into an auditorium and it's the worst day
of your life, right you. Let's say you overslapt you
didn't sleep well the night before, you're exhausted, you just
(22:49):
have tons of brain fog. You're running on caffeine fumes.
I don't mean, is there such a thing as caffeine fumes.
There's got to be it now if there's anything that
they're doing with coffee, technology is happening in Melbourne. So
you're running on caffeine fumes and it's like you can
(23:09):
still have a great presentation because you've gone through so
many reps to create on demand, but you're not really
going through reps until you know what it is that
you're repeating. You're now if you get up there and
you wing one hundred presentations, that's not one hundred times
at that. That's kind of like one hundred random things
(23:30):
that you can't put together. So it's that deliberate intension,
letting go progressively and then being able to go, Okay,
what's this about? Oh that topic? Yeah, I could talk
on that. Wait how much time to wait? You're changing
the topic. It's five minutes before I go. Can I
talk about Yeah? I could do that, and you just go.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I hijacked the conversation away from the mentor's remaining though,
And I want to go back there because I want
to know more about what drew you to the current
context of it.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I'm not even sure I know. Maybe I just got
old and cantankerously. I was young, hopeful and optimistic and
now after so many like business ventures failed and broken hearts,
and who knows, I don't know what the story is
behind that, Or maybe I just have a sobering, more
(24:34):
balanced perspective. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing.
I know that. When I was in my twenties, I
was just because I felt like I needed so much momentum,
almost like almost like a you know, I'm flying quantus.
You got to put that throttle all the way down
and hold it down if you're ever going to get
(24:54):
off the runway, and once you get off the runway
you can pull back on that. I think that's how
flying goes. But I needed to have that throttle down
fall on. So for me, everything was about how do
I use this? Everything's about what's optimistic about this? Where
now I'm kind of more balanced. I'm like, no, there's
not only one type of person that you need to be.
(25:16):
There's not only you know, one type of thinking that's
correct thinking. Everything else is not. So I see things
through so many different lenses and layers because I see
what's beautiful and inspiring about that book, and I also
see like, wow, okay, this is this is truly disgusting,
(25:38):
and like, it's interesting what I find disgusting in that book.
But I think your connection to the public speaking is
really interesting because we are talking about how to utilize tools.
I just realized I probably got a lot of my
philosophy on self help and growth from man search for meeting.
I didn't even realize it walked around. It was probably
(26:01):
that one that one line fairly early in the book
that you know, I committed to memory, I highlighted. I
went back. Success like happiness cannot be pursued. It must
ensue as an unintended side effect of one's personal dedication
to a cause greater than oneself. And the research is
bearing that out. You know, we've talked about happiness, the
(26:21):
pursuit of happiness versus happiness ensuing the side effect, the
consequence of happiness, pursuing that which is meaningful. And I'm like,
that's probably where I first started getting a lot of
those ideas from. And you know, because one thing I
one thing I got from and it wouldn't have mattered
(26:44):
that much to me if I wasn't at this point
in my life. But I probably wouldn't have even caught
the statement. But Victor Frankel said, all suffering is relative.
That's exactly what Charlie Palum said when he was on
my show. It's relative because I was out with a
group of friends and there are just some people that
(27:05):
just irritate me, and that number is getting like deeper
and wider as I get older. I don't know, maybe
it's me, it's probably me, But it was one of
these because there's these comments that you're running a racket,
you're pretending that it's positive, or you're pretending that, oh
my god, wow, you're you're so like you're so school
(27:28):
of hard knocks. But what you're actually communicating, if there
were subtitles under it, is like you're bitter, hateful and
you're emotionally fragile. Like it's not coming off this way
at all. And it was just talking about people have
gone through really bad things and because of that they
see the world a certain way and they struggle and
(27:48):
it's like, oh yeah, but and in the comment was
everyone's got everyone, everyone's got their stuff. So it's like, nah,
you're telling me Victor Frankel, right, and and my divorce
hypothetically everyone's got our stuff. Now, that's not the same stuff.
(28:09):
And if you think it's the same stuff, one fuck off.
Two you really need to unpack that. And it doesn't
matter if it's the same stuff, because like we're either
talking about your stuff or somebody else's stuff. And whilst
(28:31):
your stuff might be relevant to relate to. It doesn't
negate or mitigate something that's not the spirit of empathy,
you know, like think about that next time somebody is
like going through something. Put that thought in your head. Well,
everyone's got their stuff. Does that decrease or increase the
distance emotionally between you and that person? Try that out?
(28:55):
I mean, not if it's something like really bad, like
start small, like they my magic coffee was horrible this morning,
Like start there. Well, everyone's got their stuff, but it
and a lot of times I think that's a shield
because you might not be able to deal with the
weight of stuff. But then you have people like Charlie
(29:16):
plum Pow at the Hanoi Hilton. You have Victor Frankel
prisoner in four different concentration camps, and they're not walking
around like everyone's got their stuff. They're like, No, suffering
is relative, and depending upon what you're capable of dealing
with and what you have going on, suffering kind of
(29:40):
it feels a vacuum. It'll take up as much space
in your life as it can. So I'm not comparing
the camp to the divorce, but the divorce can be
absolutely excruciating and some of the things like, well, you know,
if you think this is bad, you should take a
(30:01):
walk through the burn unit of I don't get those.
I think those are false equivalence. I think that is
a society that is either unwilling or for whatever personal,
deep seated reason to protect yourself, incapable of just sitting
with someone for a bit. The burn unit is horrific.
(30:25):
Wish that on anyone. The burn unit is not the
antidote or a way to dismiss someone who just like
lost a spouse or a parent or a best mate
or something like that. I think when people have really
gone through what I've observed, So when people have really
(30:47):
gone through some dark shit, it either makes them a
much worse version of who they were, or it brings
out this uncommon empathy. I wonder what are all the
(31:07):
variables that lead to one direction versus another direction? And
I think purpose is not the variable. I don't know
how it would make that determination, but it's definitely one
of them. So when you like this book, when you
talk about okay, well storytelling, is this self indulgent or
is this something that has viable value for someone? Well,
(31:32):
what's the meaning behind that story? Like that? It's at
the root of everything. I think it makes us more resilient.
I think because a lot of times we can tell
ourselves a lot of stories and read our own headlines.
It kind of illuminates our path in front of us.
So it's a light and a compass. I think this
(31:54):
book touches upon every aspect in our life that's essential
to what does it actually mean to be a human being?
Like what is that?
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's a really interesting time at the moment because there's
so much exposure to all of our everybody's collective processing
and understanding of life and others and us. And I
think coupling that with how we connect or fail to
(32:34):
in twenty twenty five compared to how we used to.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Is.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
So I'm in a conversation yesterday with one of my
guests and hearing about their travel, and I was thinking
about travel and how healing and life changing travel is,
and essentially in my mind, I just kept landing on Yeah,
because we step out of all the doing and we
just connect with people. Take take away the connection to
(33:05):
people and culture. Culture is just connecting to people in
a way where you are open to learning and hearing
about how life is. There like if you take the
people out of the travel, then the travel.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Is no longer.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It's not the it's not the soil that you land on,
it's not the material that the house is built out of.
But yeah, and I was just thinking, like, it's just
one time of everyone's life where they put down so
much of identity and expectation and I am this and
(33:44):
I have to do that, and they escape for a moment,
and in escaping for a moment, they are open to
being with people and it.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Changes our life.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
It is so life changing talking to people about where
they've traveled, when they've traveled somewhere new, and what it's
done to them. And it doesn't matter what the story is.
It can be visiting a temple, or it can be
climbing a mountain, or it can be sitting with someone
in a shop in a country they've never been, and
they feel completely changed by the energy of the experience.
(34:21):
And I was just like, I love that.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
What.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
I don't know where that tangent came from.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Do you low the bouncing ball?
Speaker 4 (34:35):
It's quite a radic I don't know what happened there,
but I think we've talked. We've talked about everything on
the show where you're on your deathbed when you know time,
time is finite, and you know you have a pretty
good idea about how finite it is. We're talking about
a hospice situation with that show. The show I told,
(35:01):
oh God, I've had so many conversations. It's like, who
did I talk to? There was a show on on
Hulu out here Dying for Sex I think it was
was it Hulu? Anyway? It was about It was about
this woman who she was in remission from cancer, and
then the cancer came back and it was really clear, like, Okay,
she's probably not going in remission again. And it just
(35:22):
forces her to evaluate her life. It's like a giant
mirror being thrust in her face and how she deals
with all of these unreconciled issues that she has with
you know, childhood trauma situations her her mother had put
her in and like with her current husband and all
(35:44):
these and there's no time to figure this out and
what she's going through and what becomes increasingly more and
more important to her. I think it all comes down
to me and you, right, I mean, not meeting you.
We're not that important like us people. It's gonna be
the little things, isn't it. It's gonna be the people
(36:06):
we meet, the little things that we do, our little routines.
That's what's probably gonna matter more than anything. It's not
gonna be oh wow, what type of cards did I drive?
Like what was my title? You know, and my income?
What was that? You know, that'll only matter to the
degree where it touched other people or I don't know,
(36:27):
maybe it was like a seventy one Chevy Chavelle Supersport.
I'd like to think that would still matter. But other
than that, those things are going to be irrelevant, and
the things that bring us, Like in the camps, where
(36:48):
I really had an emotional response was not the guards
and like the captains, the commanders of the camp. I
had an emotional response to the coppos that were prisoners
put in charge of other prisoners. And he's talking about
(37:09):
the brutality, and on the one hand, it's kind of like, God,
you're a prisoner yourself, and it's like you're doing more
than self preservation, Like when Victor Frankel's saying that there
were coppos who were more brutal than any guard, And
(37:32):
it's like, on the other hand, if you think about
everything that would make a human being truly miserable and
keep them stuck there and have zero dignity about who
they are. It's behavior like that because all things being equal,
and I'm not saying we don't engage in like health
(37:53):
and fitness practices and get a good amount of sleep.
The thing that really enhances our well being comes from
one another, like that kind of stuff, like being kind
to one another, really caring about someone else instead of
apathetic or hostile or something I see emerging in society.
(38:19):
I don't know if you've noticed this where people deeply
want others to be punished to the maximum degree for
the slightest infraction. Like have you noticed that kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
You know?
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I mean those people have always been there. But like
you said, we see everything all we're like processing a
collective consciousness right now, Like what is it like to
be you? What is that experience?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
You know?
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Like Harps always says what's it like to be you?
In terms of reflecting the experience others have with you? No, No,
what what experience do you have with yourself? Like where
does that come from? Talk about like happiness and things
that block you from ever feeling happy? That's probably it
(39:15):
for most people. I mean, if you're truly a psychopath,
I don't really think it matters or impacts happiness that much.
But for the vast majority of people who are just
so injured or afraid or disappointed, and we're going through
life taking it out on other people not realizing that
(39:40):
is the one point of interaction within your control that
you can utilize to not only lighten the weight of
someone's day, but how much life in general ways for you.
(40:00):
The act weighs ounces, The consequence of negligence weighs tons
when you think about it. I mean, we all do it.
Maybe we've all had our you know, we've all had
our moments, but as a daily practice that you're not
even reflecting, like did you did you read the thing
(40:21):
that you posted? Did you listen to the thing you
said to that person? Were you present at the table
where we're talking about people struggling, like, well, everyone's got
their stuff? Did you hear the tone that came out
in not just because I'm going it didn't sound exactly
like that, but not too dissimilar, Like did you did
(40:42):
you hear like the inflection? What is that like? And
I'm like, what what would it sound like, not just
the context, but the tone. What would it feel like
coming out of your mouth if it was coming from
a very different place, a place that wouldn't make you
miserable enough to want that for another person? Start there.
(41:04):
I think.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
It's interesting, Yeah, like having an awareness on the present moment,
and because because it's easy to look back and reflect
and see where we've come from and where we've grown
(41:28):
and where we're what we've been through.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
And that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
But to a degree, I don't know if maybe I'm
the only one, maybe I'm slow, But there's just times
when I go, You're you've been causing yourself pain in
your attitude and you and why couldn't you see that before?
(41:57):
Like there's a version of it right now that I
feel where I go, you've been You've been telling a
story that's been keeping you trapped in an area of
your life, and it's not the way. It's not aligning
with the story you're telling yourself, and that is keeping
you stuck and in, you know, like ineffective and unhappy
(42:23):
in areas not huge things, but I find that really interesting.
It's like self help in inverted commas or self awareness
is this ebbing and flowing, continuous thing that when you're
never really fully you never master it because you're always
(42:44):
ebbing and flowing through different states, emotional states, frames of mind,
circumstances and environments and situations that inflame you periodically, and
the US shift the window you're looking through that affirm
and when you're very like I watched this with people
(43:09):
in coaching, is when we are working on ourself, you
have to be careful that that doesn't just become a
perpetual I'm not good enough, because that's just a very
strong message that I'm not good enough. So I have
to work I'm getting better and I'm not good enough.
And it's like you can do that for years and
all of a sudden, you'll actually you've improved a lot
(43:30):
that your attitude about yourself is that you're still shit.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
And for me, that was one of the things that
started shifting my focus to what's going on out there?
Like what do you want to be better at? Like
if you could be the top twenty percent of anyone
working in any field, what field would that be? Like?
Why what would that do for you? I'm not just
talking about I'm not talking about materially, I'm talking about
(43:59):
in tra personally, emotionally, your state of well being. What's
the value that that would be built on? Because when
you do that, those sacrifices to get there are life
giving in and of themselves. So what's that out there?
Because if you're always looking in that's another thing you
can get highly neurotic. You're right about that, Like it's like, Okay,
(44:24):
what's going on with me? How am I feel I'm
not good enough? Like this deep sense of shame And
it's like you keep going over and over that line
in your head and that story. You can convince yourself
of anything. In some cases maybe it's true. But non
stop incessant self focus, I think that's like really bad
(44:48):
for your psyching. And it's like there's there's no root,
Like there's no room for perfection when you're completely focused
out there because whatever it is that perfection is staving
off where it's like, oh, I want to be accepted,
but if I do this, oh they're going to see
like I'm different, or maybe I don't want to be
(45:10):
judged harshly whatever. When I'm focusing on something that's bigger
than me, a contribution, it's on that thing. I'm going
to get better and better. But it's not because oh
I'm not good enough, I'm not good I need to
do this, I need to I think that's a lot
of times where I think we're going into what really
irritates me about the whole do the work. Yeah, of course,
(45:33):
it's just think about what that does to someone who
doesn't have a how or struggling with a why and
they know that they're kind of stuck in limbo and
it doesn't feel good and I want to move forward.
It's like, you're not doing enough and you're not doing this,
and it's like, if you're doing that, well, then you
must not be doing that. Oh you're doing that too well.
(45:53):
I know you're not doing this. And it's like, we
go through as many levels as we can until we
find something that someone's guilty for. It's like, what does
that do to them? Like if they're not connecting stuff
out there in the world to something that extends beyond them,
that could be that could be a constant loop in
their head. So it just I used to go to
(46:19):
these sessions, these big professional personal development self help events,
and one of the things it was funny because it
was right at the time that I started hanging out
with Paul Taylor. It's so funny because Paul came into
my life as my aspirations to be a motivational speaker
(46:44):
a self help speaker went out of my life. Those
two aspirations almost bumped up against each other, that's how
close they were. And one of the things I started
noticing is anyone who comes in here with any level
of self not satisfaction but self accept din'ts is chastised
by the entire group and the message, no, you need
(47:06):
the next book, you need the next course. You got
to work on this. What do you mean you're happy
with who you are here? Don't you see? You're really
fucked up. You just don't know it. And it's like,
what's this person doing. They're like raising a family, they're
going out, they love their career, they love their spouse,
they this person seems like the most mentally healthy person
(47:27):
in the room, and all the rest of us are
freaking out like people. We get upset, like almost teary
eyed at this person's unwillingness to acknowledge how screwed up
they actually are. And I'm thinking, oh, this this guy's great,
Like I want to get to there. And it's like,
(47:47):
oh my god, the whole machine, the whole mechanism, the
whole culture is you're broken and here's how you need
to get fixed and there's only one way to do that.
And I was like, well, how are we arriving at
these conclusions because it seems like the gurus know everything.
And then Paul Taylor was coming into my life and
it was like, you don't know anything until you start
(48:10):
to take a look inside the brain. And it's like, okay,
that makes sense to me. You know what they say,
like when the student is ready, Paul Taylor appears. I
think that's how that's saying goes. But I was like, yeah,
there's there's something. Somebody is running a racket here. Something
is not right. And when I started hanging out with Paul,
(48:33):
one of the things my friend Richard had called me
and said, oh, we're doing We're doing a whole tour
in Australia. We're going to be out here for a
while and I want you to come out. I want
you to come out on the speaking tour. I want
you to be a big part of it. And it's like, oh,
just one thing I don't know how this is going
to go, so I'm not sure I'll be able to
pay you. I'm like, what are you talking about, Like
(48:56):
thirty days of work straight and no pay. It's like,
all right, I'm hopping on a plane. I'm there. So
for me where I was, I was so ready to
get out of that environment and it changed my life.
It didn't work out really well those sessions. It led
to the creation of PTA Global. It framed a big
(49:17):
event that we had meeting in the minds. But I
think it was a big transition where it's like things
are complicated. Don't make so many assumptions, because it's staggering
how little you know about what's going on in your
own head, not to mention somebody else. I think there
are certain there are certain emblems of behavior we shouldn't accept,
(49:38):
Like someone's behavior is blatantly hurting somebody else, especially if
there's intention behind that, that's not acceptable. It doesn't matter
what happened to you. But all these other little conclusions
and judgments that we have with so much fevor, like
I don't even know why we'd be so invested in
(49:58):
it anyway, it's kind of weird. Yeah, you don't know
that much to make that conclusion, and that's what started
me on this journey.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
Do You're a no fun story?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
When I talk about my first boxing boxing fight, which
obviously was a big shift in the direction of my life.
That started through I'd met someone in business networking that
was from America. I'd traveled to Australia. They'd come and
visited our meeting and they'd reached out to Caver one
(50:30):
on one catch up, and when we were having one
catch up, they said to me, I'm staying at the
Cullen and I'm going to Akimodum, which is the gym
downstairs there, and there's this guy that's doing a talk
and I think you'd really love it. He's doing a
(50:51):
talk on resilience and he's an ex a Navy aircre
officer or whatever the fuck Paul is. Anyway, so I
went this whole My whole boxing journey started because I
went to that talk and then I got a tour
of vacuum Otum and the basement boxing downstairs, and that
was the fight. That was my first fight, and I
signed up after hearing Paul speak on resilience and the
(51:16):
how physic hard doing hard physical things changes our mind
and our mindset and our brain and.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
Yeah, boom, all started with old mate.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
It's funny like looking looking back, it wasn't until I
started sharing the story of my first fight that I realized,
oh my, that's kind of come full circle like.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
To where it began.
Speaker 4 (51:43):
It's a very incestuous group. We have, like such a
small world. How we all like, how we're all tethered
to each other by seemingly random, weird events, But it's
all the same circle. So we were all there the
whole time in the periphery, and we just got pulled
closer and closer together. Now Poll does some remarkable work.
(52:05):
I mean, I think I love the things that he's
curious about that he researches. He's extremely interesting as a
present as an individual, and he's he comes across extremely
to me anyway, academic and passionate at the same time.
(52:27):
I remember going out and speaking with Paul because when
we first started, like he was the science guy and
I was the application guy around behavior change. So it
was neuroscience and me just starting to make that transition
again from self help coaching. Right, I'll ask you a
few questions. Find out what's wrong with you tell you
(52:49):
how to fix it, not coaching to actual coaching. So
I was making that shift. So I was the practical
application person. He was the egghead, and you know, we
would we would like share seminars, like he'd do one section,
I do another. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it.
(53:10):
When he stopped being on the road with us is
when I think I started getting into lanes, too far
into lanes that, Yeah, I don't think I really belonged
going there.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (53:27):
I don't think it was I don't want to say
my passion because I'm passionate about it, but I don't
think it completely aligned with who I was and my purpose.
I went so far down the neuroscience rabbit hole because
I thought, oh, he's not on the road with us,
I kind of need to Like this is because I
(53:48):
realized how important it is for methodologies to be informed
by neuroscience, because otherwise, like, what are we actually talking
about here? So I went really far down that road.
But I think that there's kind of like a balance,
And what I really missed was how that balance between
(54:10):
me and Paul worked itself out in terms of what
we brought to the team. So Paul's I think a
massive impact on a lot of people. I know he
had a massive impact on me.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
I remember reaching out to him and asking him, asking
if I could just follow him around when he was
doing big corporate speaking jobs, and I was really I
was really fortunate that he said, yep, and let me,
you know, just come in and be in the room
as hes an inverted Commas assistant, just so that I could,
(54:46):
you know, get a sense of what people how people
are doing this.
Speaker 4 (54:52):
M Yeah, Like I remember Paul took me under his
wing as a mentor because I had asked him if
I can like follow him around dressed as Gargamel when
out smurfing. I didn't even know what smurfing was, but
he showed me a strange and disturbing world I wish
I had never seen, but had so much fun, and
(55:12):
I had the Monk's outfit for years after until there
was a fight with a hitchhiker in the woods a
few years ago, and there was there was a lot
of there was a lot of alcohol involved and let's
just say, yeah, the the Monk's outfit did not make it,
but I had that Monk's outfit from smurfing, which I
(55:35):
learned from Paul Taylor. Do you do you not like
know what smurfing is.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
But no, please explain.
Speaker 4 (55:42):
It's when grown ups paint themselves blue and dressed like
Smurf characters from the cartoon The Smurfs, And then there's
always a Gargamel, which is very risky because he was
the monk, the monk that hated the Smurfs. He was
(56:02):
like the Smurf adversary. So if you go out smurfing
as Gargomel, you're taking a risk. Your safety is not guaranteed.
But first time dressing up in that outfit, it was
in San Diego. So we have a baseball team here
at the Padres, right, And I didn't know this at
(56:24):
the time. The mascot is a Friar, a monk. So
I had rocked up to the pub I would say
about fifteen minutes before everyone else got there, and someone
had bought me a beer and they were cheering, and
I was like, Gody, Wow, they really love the Smurfs
in this town, don't they. And I had no idea
(56:48):
that I was dressed like their mascot. And then Taylor
rocks up as brainy Smurf as you would and we
had a friend of ours Jen, I won't give her
a surname, and you know she's blonde, so she was
painted blue a smurf fat and the pub went from
being highly enthusiastic to extremely confused. So I was like, Okay,
(57:10):
this has nothing to do with the Smurfs, does it.
I didn't give a shit as long as I got
like a freak guinness or two out of it, all
good and that and that is an example of a
self indulgent story tip that has to do with anything
(57:33):
anyone wants to hear. So, yeah, you're you're welcome. You
could take that back to your course and go, yeah,
do that. So what did your course say about, you know,
self indulgent stories versus like, what's their take on delivering
a story?
Speaker 2 (57:51):
So we're working through a process which we haven't done yet.
So all we've done so far is decide on our
stories and how we're going to tell them. That the
unpacking and delivery of lessons comes in the next phase
of how we work through this.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
So I'm looking forward to.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
What I loved going into this was what will I
learn That I had no idea I needed to learn,
and to find someone in this space that I felt
comfortable with, that I felt I respected, that I wanted to,
that I liked what they were delivering, and that I
trusted to go through. This was big things. I feel
(58:34):
like there's a lot of there's a lot of people
in the space that are like, I'll teach you how
to do this, and they don't know. I'm just I'm
wary of process, you know, like, what are you teaching?
How are you teaching?
Speaker 3 (58:49):
It? Is it?
Speaker 2 (58:50):
Does it take into account the things that matter to
me when I'm sharing?
Speaker 4 (58:55):
So so you resonated with the presentations style of this person,
You're like, sign up for that course?
Speaker 2 (59:03):
Yes, thank you for taking what I was turning into
a fucking way too big explanation and condensed in it.
Speaker 3 (59:09):
Yes, so resonating.
Speaker 4 (59:11):
I feel the same way because I've worked with people
like that and it's energizing. I've also signed up for
things and I'm like, watching the demonstrations of this person presenting,
I'm like, I wouldn't sit through the seminary. Why am
I even here? That doesn't mean that that person doesn't
(59:32):
have anything to teach you, but I think having a
teacher you resonate with, it's a lot more effective than
it's like, Okay, I paid my money, Let's see what
I can learn from this two very different experiences.
Speaker 2 (59:43):
I'm very much a unscripted speaker into it, well, yes
and no. Like I do a lot of planning when
I'm speaking, but I don't plan the words I'm going
to use when I tell the story. I understand what
aspects of story I'm going to use in order to
(01:00:04):
lead into the topics that I'm exposing. But as we're
looking at the process of this, I'm learning a lot
about the importance. But it's challenging because in order to
do that, there's parts of this course where we we're
looking at scripting and we're looking at time. How do
I feel a time allotment? And how do I give like?
(01:00:27):
How do like? I don't know. It's there's challenging aspects.
There's aspects that are challenging me a lot, and you've
got to be open to I have to be open
to being the beginner in this and going Okay, I'm
going to park all of my I know, I cling
to what's comfortable and yep, it served me really well,
(01:00:49):
and maybe I'll come back to aspects of it, but
for now, I've got to put it in the corner
and leave it there and shut up and fucking listen
and try the things that I'm being told to try
before I say whether or not they fit. And maybe
it'll be worse. Maybe it'll be worse before I'm better
(01:01:10):
because it's a new thing and I'm going to be
shit at it when I try and deliver it. And
maybe that's like, are you willing to be shit shitter
before you're far better? Or do you want to cling
to Nope, I'm I'm at this level and I'm not
going to drop down any levels for any period of
(01:01:32):
time in order to reach higher levels. Like that's that
self indulgent? I think so, But it's challenging. It's really
challenging me.
Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
Why. I don't think you've said anything on this podcast
that is self indulgent. But I will say that was
a master class on how to approach to learning and
skill development. Like that attitude, that's perfect, Like I'm so
happy that you're in this class. I think you're going
to get a lot out of it, regardless, that's exactly
that's exactly what it takes.
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
MM, thank you. Do you want to wrap us up?
Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Yeah? It would be really rude if it was like,
all right, so times up, get off my show. I mean, god,
it's like I'm not going to get you back as
a guest anytime soon. Are you my guest or my yours?
I don't even know who's the guest of who here?
Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
But I don't think either of us know anymore.
Speaker 4 (01:02:25):
It's awkward thing like really, like, you know, do we
really need to fuck we.
Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
Get near the engine, I'm like, is it?
Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
Am I a guest?
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Do I do? I?
Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
Do I have to ask permission to.
Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Wrap it up? Or just like how does this happen?
Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
Yeah? Society puts so many labels on us, like who's
the guest, who's the host? Does it really matter?
Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
One thing I do know is that if I don't
nudge you to wrap it up, I'll still be here
at four pm this afternoon, which will be some ridiculous
hour of the morning for you.
Speaker 4 (01:02:54):
Does my wife know that? So anyway, so as we're
into the wrap up, which I think we've given plenty
of hints, none of you should be surprised at what's
coming at this point. I just want to thank you
all for listening, because you're the most important part of
this show. If it wasn't for you, it'd just be
(01:03:15):
two weird people like telling shit stories to one another.
Hopefully they didn't come off that way for you. And yeah,
so thank you. Thank you for listening to self help
Atidude and Roll with the Punches. Tiffany, thank you for
being my guest host and cover all bases. Love chatting
(01:03:37):
with you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Thanks Bobby, Thanks everyone.
Speaker 4 (01:03:42):
That was a horrible wrap up. You know what, I
don't care. It was from the heart.
Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
She said, it's now and ever I got fighting in
my blood.
Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
Coastcart Ucas scared at a countchard three
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