January 15, 2026 • 19 mins
The New Zealand Rugby Union has confirmed the news they have parted ways with All Blacks head coach Scott Robertson just 2 years in to his 4-year contract.
Following an in-depth review of the 2025 season, NZR Chair David Kirk confirmed the trajectory of the team is not where it needs to be in the current Rugby World Cup cycle and the search for a new head coach will start immediately.
Newstalk ZB rugby editor Elliott Smith and New Zealand Herald rugby writer Gregor Paul unpack today's announcement.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Straight down the Middle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Of Truck Guy, try to.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Get inside the game from Every end Goal. It's Rugby
Direct with Elliott Smith and Leam Napier powered by News
Talks at B.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions and our
second emergency podcast in as many days. My name is
Elliott Smith. I am used talk zibb's Rugby editor. I
don't have my usual co host, Liam Napier with me today.
He has gone off on camping, so hopefully he's managed
(01:00):
to stay dry and he stayed out of the news
that has broken today, which is as I'm sure you're
all aware by now that All Black Head coach Scott
Robertson is now former All Blacks head coach Scott Robertson.
He has parted ways with New Zealand Rugby. They came
to an agreement. It's been termed that they would go
in a different direction and Robertson would be removed. David Kirk,
(01:25):
the chair of New Zealand Rugby, fronted Media where we'll
hear from him in a moment some of the clips
when he spoke to the media and New Zealand Herald
Rugby columnist Gregor Paul is poised to draw me on
Rugby direct to talk through what this means for Robertson,
for the All Blacks for New Zealand Rugby, but first
and foremost, David Kirk was asked a number of questions
(01:47):
in about a twenty five minute media conference today. He
was asked, was there a specific area here that the
All Blacks weren't on tracking?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I think, you know, high performance environments like the Alls
are very You can't disaggregate them and say this was
right and that was wrong. The environment is either working
or it isn't, and there's a whole range of different
components to that. But it's much more sensible to think
about the environment delivering performance, which is delivering trajectory for
(02:17):
where we need to go, improvements, learning, adaptability, all those
sorts of things that we need to be doing, and
then the environment needs to be set up to deliver.
And so I think it's it's it's better to consider
in a broader trajectory sense than it is to try
and disaggregate.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
With the environment.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And I asked him, was this a captain's school that
he made alone?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
No, not at all. This is the this is the
board call. All all the material that was presented, that
was collected was presented to the board and discussed in
detail at a board meeting that lasted two or three hours.
So the board is c was cross all the material
and all the board directors had lots of questions and
(03:02):
lots of discussion. Obviously management, hyperformance, management, and Steve Vancaster,
the acting CEO, was at the board meeting, and following
all of that discussion, the board was yunanimous in the
directions it gave with regard to the conversations with the
head coach.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I also asked him whether he had addressed the current
All Blacks players engage their reaction.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yes, we've spoken to the to the leadership group before
the announcement and their reaction was they just absorbed it.
They were they were, They went there to to they
didn't asked me any questions and they didn't you have any
(03:45):
any any, any real strong.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Response, and I was.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I asked him, rather, did he address the remaining All
Blacks coaches and management alongside those All Blacks players?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
No, Well, we talked to the there was separate, We
talked to the players, and then we talked to the
wide and the whole management group which is quite large
as you would know, and took them through the process
and and where where where they arrived at and the
mutual agreement with A Scott that he would step down.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
And he was asked whether he expected the remaining coaches
and management to stay on.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
I don't know. I have no doe that.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
I see no reason why not. They committed and doing
a and must have been doing a great job.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I suspect there'll be further changes to the All Blacks
coaching staff, but that might be a matter for down
the track once a new head coach takes on the role.
Joining us on Rugby Direct now to discuss all of
what we've just heard now with David Kirk, the ramifications
for the All Blacks, Scott Robertson for New Zealand Rugby
and who might take on this job? Gregor Paul New
(04:45):
Zealand rugby columnist and writer joins us now. Of course
you hear him on our news talk Zerbe commentaries on
the All Blacks overseas matches and it's his first time
I believe on Rugby directs A Gregor welcome first and foremost.
Were you surprised by this decision from New Zealand Rugby.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Well, thanks for having me earlier.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
No, to be to be blunt, I think you and
I were were You know, we were on that tour
together at the end of the year and we were
talking as that tour developed, particularly after the All Blacks
lost that Test match to England and you know, was
quite an insipid and underwhelming performance, that we were aware
(05:29):
that there were increasing issues that we were hearing about
within the team and unhappiness with certain players about selection,
confusion about strategical approach, even uncertainty about the division of
labor within the coaching teams. You know who was the
head coach? Was it Razor, was it Scott Hansen? How
(05:50):
was all that working through? And it was clear from
the noise coming out of the team, the performances that
we were witnessing, the recidivus defending around, lack of discipline,
melting down after halftime, you know, lack of composure, lack
of ability to finish half chances when they were presented,
(06:12):
that there were clearly deep issues within the environment, within
the setup and yeah, no, I'm not surprised at all
they've made that decision.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
There was a point, is you see, on the end
of your tourre it just felt like something was off.
And I'm not going to go into specifics necessarily of
conversations that we've had with people, but it felt like
the vibes for one of a better term weren't there
in the closing weeks of that tour.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Yeah, and I think that'd been building for a while,
though I think it manifested fairly obviously. You know, round
about the end of that tour, particularly after the defeat
to England, which to me was epitomized. There was a
moment that you will recall when after halftime Coddy Taylor
had been yellow carded, Bordon Barrett was kept on the
(07:01):
field even though he was playing on one leg, and
the All Black's got penalty which they didn't know what
to do with. They couldn't kicked for gold because they
didn't have a goalkicker, they didn't want to put it
out because they didn't have a hooker on the field,
and in the end they decided to tap a play
two phases and kick the ball up in the air.
And that to me was the moment where there was
(07:22):
such an obvious breakdown between the coaching box and the
senior players that they were not on the same page.
I don't think the coaching staff took responsibility for their
role in that, and to me that was really the
illustrative point where you watch an all black team as
a Scotsman, watching an all black team behaving as if
(07:43):
they're Scotland, then you know there's a problem.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Well, yes, to an extend, but they only got out
of jail the week prior, didn't they obviously against Scotland
dead Edinburghan and in a way, Damien mckinziy's heroics papered
over some of the cracks there too.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Yep, yeah, and you could I don't know if you
could make the same argument to go back another week to.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
The Island game where they were battling away.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Until the final quarter, because I mean, to some extent
that's the nature of test match Ragby, isn't it. You know,
you don't break a team like Ireland until late in
the game. But clearly I thought they escaped in Edinburgh
more because of Scotland's inability to hit the killer blow
when they had the chance and England were just too good,
(08:27):
you know, they were a better team than Scotland. They
got given half a chance to win the game and
they took it. But really the most damning evidence was
that whole statistical portfolio around you know, the points steff
sit in minutes forty to fifty nine, where it was
a consistent pattern where the All Blacks just consistently melted
(08:50):
down in that period, And you've got to look at
that and go, why did that happen, What was happening
at halftime, what was the replacement strategy, what earse was
going on? Yeah, you know, because it's a really stunning
set of numbers to look at.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It simly, isn't in David Kirk referenced that the whole
they went into in the third quarter today as well,
if we take a couple of steps back to twenty
twenty three when he was appointed, you look back at
that process now you look back at the appointments. You
can say it in hindsight whatever, but do they get
this wrong in the first place?
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Well, I don't think I'm saying it with hindsight. I
was saying at the time, you know it, it was
a poorly run ill conceived process, and if I'm honest
with you, having you know gol Stritten, the and Foster's biography,
Mike Gutfield here is the CEO. Insid R CEO Mike
(09:45):
Robinson had a poor relationship with Ian Foster from the
start of Foster and Robertson's Robinson's tenure. They never got on.
Things got worse during the tenure, and really, I feel
inside are convinced themselves that they couldn't work with Foster,
(10:05):
regardless of whether he won the World Cup, didn't win
the World Cup, or whatever. They just wanted shot of him.
And they decided that Razor was going to be the
antidote to all the perceived problems that they had with Foster,
and they didn't get They ran a process to give
Robertson the job, and it's not clear to me whether
(10:27):
he was the right guy for that job, because I
don't think any other candidates got put in front of
the board to properly assess. And I think they've paid
a price for making a change without necessarily establishing if
Robertson was well enough qualified to.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Do that job and the assistance that came with him
into that job. Two of them went Scott Hansen reportedly
the subject of criticism following the end of year to
the whole team has come in for some real criticism
over the basis of the last couple of years, haven't.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
They Well, look, here's the thing.
Speaker 5 (11:05):
Razor applied for the job in two nineteen and he
didn't get it, and some of the feedback he got
was your wider coaching team lacks a bit of experience,
lacks a bit of quality, lacks a bit of something.
In twenty twenty two, he represented when it was possible
that Ian Foster was going to be removed. He represented
with the same group of assistants and got told the
(11:27):
same thing, You're missing something in that coaching team. You know,
could you bring in Joe Schmidt, for example, to strengthen it.
He said no, or Joe Schmidt said no, And again
Robertson got overlooked for the job. They retained Ian Foster.
Come twenty twenty three, when he's interviewed for the third time,
he presents the same group of people, but this time
(11:51):
with no material difference in their international exposure. They say, yes, yep,
that group is now good enough. Now what changed their minds?
What changed you know those in those intervening years, because
none of them were coaching really at a high level
of international rugby.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
The player power issue has been talked about a little bit.
Do you think that the players wanted Scott Robertson gone?
Speaker 5 (12:21):
I think the players wanted to be part of an
environment that they felt was going to get the best
out of them and get the best out of the team.
I don't think there was anything personal or a desire
to you know, put you know, kind of gun to
the head pressure of ns ARE and say hey, you
(12:45):
fire this bloker. We all disappeared. I don't think that
ever happened. I think they just gave comprehensive, honest, authentic
feedback to NZR about where they thought Robertson was at,
whereas coaching team were at. And I think they probably
knew that their feedback would be powerful enough to paint
(13:08):
a picture that would leave Robertson in an untenable position.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
But I don't. I think it's unfair.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
To characterize it as player power. I think it's unfair
to characterize it as a player revolt. I think guys
who cared deeply about the all black jersey gave an
honest opinion with the hope that either changes would be
made to help Robertson improve or changes would be made
to remove Robertson and do something to change the environment ends.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Speaking of change, where do you think they go to now?
For the All Blacks coach Jamie Joseph's name has been
bandied around. They're going to have to make an appointment
relatively quickly. You would have to think to get you know,
who have his feet under the desk. So this is
going to happen, happen relatively quickly from an All Blacks perspective.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
Yeah, I think they probably need to be careful about
not doing it too quickly, you know, because there's not
a Test match until July. No, admittedly you want to
have guys in place to be selecting, you know, and
having a good look at players across the country and
working together. But you know, I remember two thousand and four,
(14:14):
Hanson and Wayne Smith were the two pointed assistants. Both
of them remained in the UK because Hanson was coaching
Wales and Smith was coaching Northampton, so they stayed in
the UK until until May June and then came home.
So sort of hit the ground running if you like,
(14:35):
and I think you don't necessarily want your head coach
to be out of the country until that late in
the piece. But it's not the worst thing in the
world if you don't have a head coach and play
until March April, if that's what it takes to get
the right person or the right people. So I would
just say, take a breath, get it. They've done stage one,
(14:59):
which is they've announced Robertson's leaving. Kirk has said the
job is open, and now I think we all know
who the potential candidates are, don't we. Jamie Joseph's day
for any even Ian Foster, a return, return for Fozzy.
You know, it's not out of the question. Uh, you
(15:19):
know Pat Lambers in the UK. I'm trying to think
off the top of my head earlier other names. I mean,
we all know who the you know who the Kiwi
cultures are with the with the relevant body of experience
to be credible. Varonkosa here in New Zealand be another
one the guys that you would go Okay, let's let's
make sure that all of these guys are aware of
(15:40):
the the situation and give them an opportunity to apply
or even if one or two of them get together
and present themselves as a package.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
That was the question I was going to say, because
we circle back to the point about Robertson's team. How
important that the team is right for this All Blacks
and not just the head coach the name on the
band of the name put up on lights. But the
right coaching team is appointed here.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Yeah, like that that's critical.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
But there's two ways that you can go around getting
the right coaching team. Now, the mistakes that have been
made in the past were if you go back to
the even the two nineteen process, both Body and Foster
and Scott Robertson, who were the two main head coaching candidates,
got told they had to present with a ready made team.
(16:30):
Now what happened there was there wasn't enough talent available
for both of them, so they started scrapping over individuals,
and in the end, a guy like Jason Ryan wasn't
able to be appointed to the All Blacks because he'd
aligned himself with Scott Robertson. Now that's not a criticism
with Jason, that's a criticism of the process. So should
(16:54):
you just appoint a head coach and then say to
that head coach. You're the right head coach. You know,
I need to go and find the right team to
put around you and we'll help you do that, or
potentially in this because of the the sudden nature of this,
potentially if you know, if Jimmy Joseph says, look, hey,
(17:14):
I can bring Dave re Annie and here's a critical.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
With South Africa.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
If there's some way to prize them out of that
contract and put him into onto Jimmy's ticket, And if
Jimmy can say, hey, it's me Dave, Rennie and Tony Brown,
then that's a pretty compelling package. But I don't think
candidates should be required to present whether already made team.
I think ends that I actoually just have an open
mind about how they want us to go through.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Just finally, grigor grateful for your time. You focus on
the you know, the business side of sporting in many ways,
What does this say about New Zealand Rugby as an
organization with the backdrop I guess of silver ac and
the All Blacks being the brand that brings in you
know that the bacon for New Zealand Rugby, what is
this announcement said about I guess where they're at. They
(18:07):
don't have a sea, a CFO, a CCO, but David
Kirk has taken on his shoulders along with the board
to make a pretty significant call here. So what does
it say about New Zealand rugby as we head into
twenty twenty six.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Well, it says, regardless of the fact that those executive
positions that you've listed off there remain unfilled at the moment,
that they have a board and certainly a chair who
recognizes that New Zealand's commercial ambition highly on its ability
to persuade the world that it is a high functioning,
(18:44):
winning rugby team that is viewed by most people to
be their best in the world or are highly likely
to be in any conversation around being the best of
the world.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Greg A Paul, New Zealand Herald rugby columnist and writer
joining us on Rugby Direct that about does this. But
this has been a fascinating forty eight hours in the
history of New Zealand's national sport. That is for certain
watch the space for further developments. Like Liam, I am
hitting off on a little bit of a holiday next week.
(19:21):
There might be further developments. You might have some different
voices jumping in and if there is more breaking news
over the next seven to eight days of rugby in
this country until next time on Rugby Direct. My thanks
to Mark Kelly for producing and Gregor Paul for joining me.
That has been Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions, celebrated
twenty five years in business.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
For more from News Talks, EDB, listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Straight down the Middle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Of Truck Guy, try to.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Get inside the game from Every end Goal. It's Rugby
Direct with Elliott Smith and Leam Napier powered by News
Talks at B.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions and our
second emergency podcast in as many days. My name is
Elliott Smith. I am used talk zibb's Rugby editor. I
don't have my usual co host, Liam Napier with me today.
He has gone off on camping, so hopefully he's managed
(01:00):
to stay dry and he stayed out of the news
that has broken today, which is as I'm sure you're
all aware by now that All Black Head coach Scott
Robertson is now former All Blacks head coach Scott Robertson.
He has parted ways with New Zealand Rugby. They came
to an agreement. It's been termed that they would go
in a different direction and Robertson would be removed. David Kirk,
(01:25):
the chair of New Zealand Rugby, fronted Media where we'll
hear from him in a moment some of the clips
when he spoke to the media and New Zealand Herald
Rugby columnist Gregor Paul is poised to draw me on
Rugby direct to talk through what this means for Robertson,
for the All Blacks for New Zealand Rugby, but first
and foremost, David Kirk was asked a number of questions
(01:47):
in about a twenty five minute media conference today. He
was asked, was there a specific area here that the
All Blacks weren't on tracking?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I think, you know, high performance environments like the Alls
are very You can't disaggregate them and say this was
right and that was wrong. The environment is either working
or it isn't, and there's a whole range of different
components to that. But it's much more sensible to think
about the environment delivering performance, which is delivering trajectory for
(02:17):
where we need to go, improvements, learning, adaptability, all those
sorts of things that we need to be doing, and
then the environment needs to be set up to deliver.
And so I think it's it's it's better to consider
in a broader trajectory sense than it is to try
and disaggregate.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
With the environment.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And I asked him, was this a captain's school that
he made alone?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
No, not at all. This is the this is the
board call. All all the material that was presented, that
was collected was presented to the board and discussed in
detail at a board meeting that lasted two or three hours.
So the board is c was cross all the material
and all the board directors had lots of questions and
(03:02):
lots of discussion. Obviously management, hyperformance, management, and Steve Vancaster,
the acting CEO, was at the board meeting, and following
all of that discussion, the board was yunanimous in the
directions it gave with regard to the conversations with the
head coach.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I also asked him whether he had addressed the current
All Blacks players engage their reaction.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yes, we've spoken to the to the leadership group before
the announcement and their reaction was they just absorbed it.
They were they were, They went there to to they
didn't asked me any questions and they didn't you have any
(03:45):
any any, any real strong.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Response, and I was.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I asked him, rather, did he address the remaining All
Blacks coaches and management alongside those All Blacks players?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
No, Well, we talked to the there was separate, We
talked to the players, and then we talked to the
wide and the whole management group which is quite large
as you would know, and took them through the process
and and where where where they arrived at and the
mutual agreement with A Scott that he would step down.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
And he was asked whether he expected the remaining coaches
and management to stay on.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
I don't know. I have no doe that.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
I see no reason why not. They committed and doing
a and must have been doing a great job.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I suspect there'll be further changes to the All Blacks
coaching staff, but that might be a matter for down
the track once a new head coach takes on the role.
Joining us on Rugby Direct now to discuss all of
what we've just heard now with David Kirk, the ramifications
for the All Blacks, Scott Robertson for New Zealand Rugby
and who might take on this job? Gregor Paul New
(04:45):
Zealand rugby columnist and writer joins us now. Of course
you hear him on our news talk Zerbe commentaries on
the All Blacks overseas matches and it's his first time
I believe on Rugby directs A Gregor welcome first and foremost.
Were you surprised by this decision from New Zealand Rugby.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Well, thanks for having me earlier.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
No, to be to be blunt, I think you and
I were were You know, we were on that tour
together at the end of the year and we were
talking as that tour developed, particularly after the All Blacks
lost that Test match to England and you know, was
quite an insipid and underwhelming performance, that we were aware
(05:29):
that there were increasing issues that we were hearing about
within the team and unhappiness with certain players about selection,
confusion about strategical approach, even uncertainty about the division of
labor within the coaching teams. You know who was the
head coach? Was it Razor, was it Scott Hansen? How
(05:50):
was all that working through? And it was clear from
the noise coming out of the team, the performances that
we were witnessing, the recidivus defending around, lack of discipline,
melting down after halftime, you know, lack of composure, lack
of ability to finish half chances when they were presented,
(06:12):
that there were clearly deep issues within the environment, within
the setup and yeah, no, I'm not surprised at all
they've made that decision.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
There was a point, is you see, on the end
of your tourre it just felt like something was off.
And I'm not going to go into specifics necessarily of
conversations that we've had with people, but it felt like
the vibes for one of a better term weren't there
in the closing weeks of that tour.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Yeah, and I think that'd been building for a while,
though I think it manifested fairly obviously. You know, round
about the end of that tour, particularly after the defeat
to England, which to me was epitomized. There was a
moment that you will recall when after halftime Coddy Taylor
had been yellow carded, Bordon Barrett was kept on the
(07:01):
field even though he was playing on one leg, and
the All Black's got penalty which they didn't know what
to do with. They couldn't kicked for gold because they
didn't have a goalkicker, they didn't want to put it
out because they didn't have a hooker on the field,
and in the end they decided to tap a play
two phases and kick the ball up in the air.
And that to me was the moment where there was
(07:22):
such an obvious breakdown between the coaching box and the
senior players that they were not on the same page.
I don't think the coaching staff took responsibility for their
role in that, and to me that was really the
illustrative point where you watch an all black team as
a Scotsman, watching an all black team behaving as if
(07:43):
they're Scotland, then you know there's a problem.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Well, yes, to an extend, but they only got out
of jail the week prior, didn't they obviously against Scotland
dead Edinburghan and in a way, Damien mckinziy's heroics papered
over some of the cracks there too.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Yep, yeah, and you could I don't know if you
could make the same argument to go back another week to.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
The Island game where they were battling away.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Until the final quarter, because I mean, to some extent
that's the nature of test match Ragby, isn't it. You know,
you don't break a team like Ireland until late in
the game. But clearly I thought they escaped in Edinburgh
more because of Scotland's inability to hit the killer blow
when they had the chance and England were just too good,
(08:27):
you know, they were a better team than Scotland. They
got given half a chance to win the game and
they took it. But really the most damning evidence was
that whole statistical portfolio around you know, the points steff
sit in minutes forty to fifty nine, where it was
a consistent pattern where the All Blacks just consistently melted
(08:50):
down in that period, And you've got to look at
that and go, why did that happen, What was happening
at halftime, what was the replacement strategy, what earse was
going on? Yeah, you know, because it's a really stunning
set of numbers to look at.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It simly, isn't in David Kirk referenced that the whole
they went into in the third quarter today as well,
if we take a couple of steps back to twenty
twenty three when he was appointed, you look back at
that process now you look back at the appointments. You
can say it in hindsight whatever, but do they get
this wrong in the first place?
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Well, I don't think I'm saying it with hindsight. I
was saying at the time, you know it, it was
a poorly run ill conceived process, and if I'm honest
with you, having you know gol Stritten, the and Foster's biography,
Mike Gutfield here is the CEO. Insid R CEO Mike
(09:45):
Robinson had a poor relationship with Ian Foster from the
start of Foster and Robertson's Robinson's tenure. They never got on.
Things got worse during the tenure, and really, I feel
inside are convinced themselves that they couldn't work with Foster,
(10:05):
regardless of whether he won the World Cup, didn't win
the World Cup, or whatever. They just wanted shot of him.
And they decided that Razor was going to be the
antidote to all the perceived problems that they had with Foster,
and they didn't get They ran a process to give
Robertson the job, and it's not clear to me whether
(10:27):
he was the right guy for that job, because I
don't think any other candidates got put in front of
the board to properly assess. And I think they've paid
a price for making a change without necessarily establishing if
Robertson was well enough qualified to.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Do that job and the assistance that came with him
into that job. Two of them went Scott Hansen reportedly
the subject of criticism following the end of year to
the whole team has come in for some real criticism
over the basis of the last couple of years, haven't.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
They Well, look, here's the thing.
Speaker 5 (11:05):
Razor applied for the job in two nineteen and he
didn't get it, and some of the feedback he got
was your wider coaching team lacks a bit of experience,
lacks a bit of quality, lacks a bit of something.
In twenty twenty two, he represented when it was possible
that Ian Foster was going to be removed. He represented
with the same group of assistants and got told the
(11:27):
same thing, You're missing something in that coaching team. You know,
could you bring in Joe Schmidt, for example, to strengthen it.
He said no, or Joe Schmidt said no, And again
Robertson got overlooked for the job. They retained Ian Foster.
Come twenty twenty three, when he's interviewed for the third time,
he presents the same group of people, but this time
(11:51):
with no material difference in their international exposure. They say, yes, yep,
that group is now good enough. Now what changed their minds?
What changed you know those in those intervening years, because
none of them were coaching really at a high level
of international rugby.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
The player power issue has been talked about a little bit.
Do you think that the players wanted Scott Robertson gone?
Speaker 5 (12:21):
I think the players wanted to be part of an
environment that they felt was going to get the best
out of them and get the best out of the team.
I don't think there was anything personal or a desire
to you know, put you know, kind of gun to
the head pressure of ns ARE and say hey, you
(12:45):
fire this bloker. We all disappeared. I don't think that
ever happened. I think they just gave comprehensive, honest, authentic
feedback to NZR about where they thought Robertson was at,
whereas coaching team were at. And I think they probably
knew that their feedback would be powerful enough to paint
(13:08):
a picture that would leave Robertson in an untenable position.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
But I don't. I think it's unfair.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
To characterize it as player power. I think it's unfair
to characterize it as a player revolt. I think guys
who cared deeply about the all black jersey gave an
honest opinion with the hope that either changes would be
made to help Robertson improve or changes would be made
to remove Robertson and do something to change the environment ends.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Speaking of change, where do you think they go to now?
For the All Blacks coach Jamie Joseph's name has been
bandied around. They're going to have to make an appointment
relatively quickly. You would have to think to get you know,
who have his feet under the desk. So this is
going to happen, happen relatively quickly from an All Blacks perspective.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
Yeah, I think they probably need to be careful about
not doing it too quickly, you know, because there's not
a Test match until July. No, admittedly you want to
have guys in place to be selecting, you know, and
having a good look at players across the country and
working together. But you know, I remember two thousand and four,
(14:14):
Hanson and Wayne Smith were the two pointed assistants. Both
of them remained in the UK because Hanson was coaching
Wales and Smith was coaching Northampton, so they stayed in
the UK until until May June and then came home.
So sort of hit the ground running if you like,
(14:35):
and I think you don't necessarily want your head coach
to be out of the country until that late in
the piece. But it's not the worst thing in the
world if you don't have a head coach and play
until March April, if that's what it takes to get
the right person or the right people. So I would
just say, take a breath, get it. They've done stage one,
(14:59):
which is they've announced Robertson's leaving. Kirk has said the
job is open, and now I think we all know
who the potential candidates are, don't we. Jamie Joseph's day
for any even Ian Foster, a return, return for Fozzy.
You know, it's not out of the question. Uh, you
(15:19):
know Pat Lambers in the UK. I'm trying to think
off the top of my head earlier other names. I mean,
we all know who the you know who the Kiwi
cultures are with the with the relevant body of experience
to be credible. Varonkosa here in New Zealand be another
one the guys that you would go Okay, let's let's
make sure that all of these guys are aware of
(15:40):
the the situation and give them an opportunity to apply
or even if one or two of them get together
and present themselves as a package.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
That was the question I was going to say, because
we circle back to the point about Robertson's team. How
important that the team is right for this All Blacks
and not just the head coach the name on the
band of the name put up on lights. But the
right coaching team is appointed here.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Yeah, like that that's critical.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
But there's two ways that you can go around getting
the right coaching team. Now, the mistakes that have been
made in the past were if you go back to
the even the two nineteen process, both Body and Foster
and Scott Robertson, who were the two main head coaching candidates,
got told they had to present with a ready made team.
(16:30):
Now what happened there was there wasn't enough talent available
for both of them, so they started scrapping over individuals,
and in the end, a guy like Jason Ryan wasn't
able to be appointed to the All Blacks because he'd
aligned himself with Scott Robertson. Now that's not a criticism
with Jason, that's a criticism of the process. So should
(16:54):
you just appoint a head coach and then say to
that head coach. You're the right head coach. You know,
I need to go and find the right team to
put around you and we'll help you do that, or
potentially in this because of the the sudden nature of this,
potentially if you know, if Jimmy Joseph says, look, hey,
(17:14):
I can bring Dave re Annie and here's a critical.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
With South Africa.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
If there's some way to prize them out of that
contract and put him into onto Jimmy's ticket, And if
Jimmy can say, hey, it's me Dave, Rennie and Tony Brown,
then that's a pretty compelling package. But I don't think
candidates should be required to present whether already made team.
I think ends that I actoually just have an open
mind about how they want us to go through.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Just finally, grigor grateful for your time. You focus on
the you know, the business side of sporting in many ways,
What does this say about New Zealand Rugby as an
organization with the backdrop I guess of silver ac and
the All Blacks being the brand that brings in you
know that the bacon for New Zealand Rugby, what is
this announcement said about I guess where they're at. They
(18:07):
don't have a sea, a CFO, a CCO, but David
Kirk has taken on his shoulders along with the board
to make a pretty significant call here. So what does
it say about New Zealand rugby as we head into
twenty twenty six.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Well, it says, regardless of the fact that those executive
positions that you've listed off there remain unfilled at the moment,
that they have a board and certainly a chair who
recognizes that New Zealand's commercial ambition highly on its ability
to persuade the world that it is a high functioning,
(18:44):
winning rugby team that is viewed by most people to
be their best in the world or are highly likely
to be in any conversation around being the best of
the world.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Greg A Paul, New Zealand Herald rugby columnist and writer
joining us on Rugby Direct that about does this. But
this has been a fascinating forty eight hours in the
history of New Zealand's national sport. That is for certain
watch the space for further developments. Like Liam, I am
hitting off on a little bit of a holiday next week.
(19:21):
There might be further developments. You might have some different
voices jumping in and if there is more breaking news
over the next seven to eight days of rugby in
this country until next time on Rugby Direct. My thanks
to Mark Kelly for producing and Gregor Paul for joining me.
That has been Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions, celebrated
twenty five years in business.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
For more from News Talks, EDB, listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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