April 22, 2026 • 43 mins
On this week’s episode of Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier were joined by Hurricanes co-owner Malcolm Gillies for a wide-ranging chat about Super Rugby Pacific, including the growing challenges surround team ownership in the competition.
The boys also look ahead to the highly anticipated Super Round, set to play out this weekend at Christchurch’s brand new One NZ Stadium at Te Kaha.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio, Straight
Down the Middle Trust try get inside the game from
(00:30):
every end goal. It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith and
Leam Navier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by NS and Safety Black Woods,
Everything tradees need sorted back for another week. Elliott Smith
with me Liam Napier, Big Old podcast head. Very shortly
we will get into the tipping some team you, some
big team news out of some of the teams for
this week. Also some more changes in the all Black setup.
(00:58):
We'll get into that very very shortly. But first and foremost,
we are joined by Hurricanes cheer Malcolm Gillies and co
owner Malcolm Gillies on Rugby Direct to talk a ray
of issues. Obviously in the wake of Morna Pacifica disbanding
after the season, Malcolm was good enough to give us
some of his time early in the week to go
over some of the key issues in rugby and where
(01:20):
we sit. Great pleasure to have Malcolm Gillies with us
on Rugby Directs.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Welcome Malcolm to Rugby Direct. Thank you very much for
making the time today. We want to kick off. I
guess by discussing your role with the Hurricanes last year.
You know, the franchise lost over two million dollars and
you bought in fifty percent steak. Can you just talk
us through why you did that? And I guess the
(01:47):
motivation behind getting involved with the Hurricanes.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Yeah, Look, it wasn't just me. It was myself and
a gentleman called John Mallon. We got together up and
the reason we got involved is both willing to rugby
and the Hurricanes are tenants of mine. CIAC. Wellington Rugby
(02:13):
came to me and we've been helping them, sponsoring them
and allowing them to basically stay here rent free. They
came to us and explained that their situation was pretty
dire and that they needed to effectively sell their shares
in the Hurricanes. So you know, it wasn't my wasn't
(02:36):
my bournie. The ambition to own a sports things quite frankly,
but you know, I'm very passionate and so is John
about rugby and particularly Wellington Rugby. It's something very very
special to me. So it was really about helping them,
so we got involved initially thinking well, it'll help Wellington
(02:57):
and you know, we need to get involved with the Hurricanes.
There wasn't until we decided to help Wellington that we
actually found out the Hurricanes were in probably worst position
what Wellington were, and by that stage there was no
getting out of it. Initially, you know, we led to
believe that they might be running a small deficit of
(03:18):
two to three hundred grand, and you know that blew
out to about two and a half million. So you're
in that jet. What are you going to do? So
we sort of thought, well, we're going to be positive
about this and we're going to sort it out so effectively,
that's what we've done. We just got boots and are
(03:40):
all Wellington. You know, hopefully that helped them. I know
that they've still got struggles themselves, and of course what
we've done is you know, ripped into how we're going
to try and sort the Hurricanes out.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
If are you good on?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
You're for getting involved in obviously the greatest franchise and
Super rugby.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
Elliot might disagree. He's a he's a staunch Cantebrian.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
This year they win both the men and the woman,
so what a turnaround next?
Speaker 5 (04:10):
I look forward to it.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
If we take a step back and look at the
super rugby landscape as a whole, you know, it's a
very challenging financial climate. The last couple of years have
seen the rebels go under Miner PACIFICA highly likely to
end at the end of this year. It costs, as
you know, around ten to twelve million to run a
super rugby team. It's challenging to get crowds involved. Do
(04:35):
you consign yourself when you get involved as a as
a major investor that this is a loss making venture.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
No, not at all. I think the reality is when
we got involved with you was losing money. When we
actually got involved and looked, the model doesn't work and
unless there's change, it's not going to work. You've got
(05:04):
five franchises, six franchises in New Zealand, and none of
them are exactly making a lot of money. So you
know there's got to be change. And you know, I'm
advocating that there has to be changed. The whole system
has to change. I don't think it's sustainable as it
sits right now.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
What means to change.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
A hell of a lot the way it's structured. My
belief is that probably needs to be privatized and you know, yeah, look,
I could go on and on, but you know, I
think it's kind of knowledge that it has to be sorted.
Cannot continue the way it is at the moment.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Malcolm, do you think there are too many restrictions on
what you can do from a New Zealand rugby and
Super rugby level in terms of player recruitment and everything
else like that? Is there too many handbrakes on what
you're able to do with what is your team?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
We're working within the boundaries, all right, and I think,
you know, let's be honest, that's what you've got to do.
But if you were looking at all the problems you've got,
and if you listened and read things that grow to
Graham Henry saying the competition isn't producing what it should do.
(06:27):
It's not producing quality players that can compete on the
international scene. So it's not producing what New Zealand rugby wants.
New Zealand Rugby wants a super competition to produce black
ferns or blacks and at a level that they're going
(06:49):
to be competitive, and everyone's saying we're not doing that.
So that's got to be sorted. Now, How do you
sort that. You guys probably know it better than me.
But there's some short term strategies and there must be
some long ter. You've got to change the competition to
give you a competition, to give you those sorts of people.
(07:11):
And people say, right, yoh, well, should we bring in
South Africa? Should we try and bring in Japan? Should
we try? And you know those things when you look
at it, I won't be here long enough. I'm sixty seven.
I'll be dead before that's even results because they take forever.
What is the short term strategy to improve the competition? Now,
(07:37):
there's so many answers, but surely those some of those
things is to allow our overseas players to come and
play in our competition. That's just a suggestion. Why wouldn't
you You imagine that you had that big guy from
the big South Africa lot coming over here. That had
certainly solved some of the crowd problems, wouldn't they Because
(07:59):
you're going to fire, You're going to get people wanting
to come and see some world class players. Look, I
don't know if it's practical, but I do see that
it's a major problem is we're not doing what they
expect us to produce. We're not producing world class players
and that's because the competition apparently isn't strong enough. Now,
(08:21):
the game I saw between the Chiefs and the Hurricanes
on Saturday night, I thought it was a pretty damn
good game. But if that's not good enough, and wouldn't
be for me to tell Sir Graham Henry, but he's
come out in the paper and saying that competition isn't
doing what it should be doing. So it's up to
us to come up with some answers to that. And
(08:43):
if you start to really brainstorm, you know, the short
term strategy seems to me is that maybe if we
can't get other countries to get involved, might be a
short term strategy to get other players to be allowed
to come in and play. And you look at the
guy Doings that came in out of Japan. Now look
what a difference that made. You know, it's the Hurricanes
(09:08):
become a bit of a sort of a folk hero,
isn't it. So you know, maybe maybe you should be
allowed to open the gates and maybe we should be
looking at bringing more people in like that.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Do you think, Malcolm, that there's the money to bring
in some of these overseas studs.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
No, I didn't say it was going to solve all
the problems, but you know there's there's more than one
play here. I mean, you've got to look at all
your stakeholders and I think what we're doing now is
super Clubs is trying to get round the table and
be proactive. Everyone with half a brain knows something's got
(09:49):
to change, and that's part of it. All I'm suggesting
is we've got to get this competition producing quality all
blacks and make firms. How are we going to do it?
And money will leave one of those issues?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
What about things like a There's been long talk about
a system and eligibility where the zeal And Australian players
can swing between the countries and still be eligible for
their national teams. What's your view on our draft system
and their eligibility in its current form.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Well, once again I'm not the NZ at R anyway,
but it seems to me that that would be practical.
You know, if you looked around, if you want your
players to be getting quality competition and you can't give
it to them in this country, why wouldn't you allow
(10:45):
them to go somewhere else and play and still select them.
That to me seems one way of getting the competition
you need. Wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Absolutely? And I think you know, there seems that we
are willingness from people like yourself and other CEOs, you know,
Carl Budget the Blues to try something different, look at
this competition a little bit differly. Do you think that
across the board people are willing to perhaps explore things
a little bit differently and not use the status quo
as a reason for withholding change.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I don't think there's ever ever been as much motivation
to look at things differently as there is right now.
As chattan of the Hurricanes, I've only just got involved
on the new boy on the Block. I've only been
to two meetings. I haven't been evicted from any of
them just yet. But what I do, since there is
a there's a will to explore change and all options,
(11:45):
and I think most from what there's a desire to
not to just try and tweak it. There has to
be there has to be something, you know, fundamentally change
for this thing to work. And I think all things
are going to be on the table. You've got to
(12:06):
be looking at you know, when you really look at it.
Why have we got a system where a player goes
over so why aren't we getting a transfer fee? Why
isn't that passed back to the rugby clubby come from
to the Hurricanes. Why is it that we sit here
and we train and we nurture our people and we
(12:31):
can't afford to meet and they go to Japan. You know,
we've got SNC trainers that are ruining three times. You
can't blame the guys, know for to taking the money.
We need to have a goal in Super Rugby to
have the best competition in the world that pays the
(12:53):
most to their players and to their coaches, and that
should be driving us to try and get some sort
of result out of us. You know, you can explore
all things. Should we be actually contracting and paying the players?
Mm hm, you know, should we have a contract just
to release them for international journeys? You know, there's a
(13:17):
lot of stakeholders here and you're going to get them
all onside. But I mean, some of these things all
of us can see. They're no brainers, aren't they. You mean,
what wouldn't you look at the league system and say, well,
should we not be looking at the way how that works?
And bringing some of that back into this running the clubs.
(13:39):
I mean, if you want private investment into these super clubs,
you've got to give them someone to investor. There's not
a lot there that you would get people to invest
in what I've seen.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well, if you open up to private investors, obviously there
could be some overseas brands potentially that come in, you know,
New Zealand. We talk about New Zealand's economy and whether
that's got the funding. But if you open up to privatization,
there are no doubt I'm sure you know be seeing
bill Fold come into the A League and various other
ventures around the globe that I'm sure be interested in,
you know, buying the license or running those teams, you know,
(14:16):
on a on a bigger scale end. They'd probably look
at the rules and go, why can't we do that?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
I think so yeah. I mean there's going to be
a lot of challenges, isn't there. I mean, if you know,
if you look at it, but they're not insurmountable. And
if there's a will, there's a way. And if you
can get round the table and the stakeholders all want
to you know, it to work, I think you can
(14:45):
work your way through it. I mean you can find
a big list of all the things that you've got
to deal with, like you know, and there are things
that you can say, right yeah, well, I mean from
my point of view, I know that there has to
be changed and we've got to make you know, we're
going to have to get out there and make some
change and some things maybe it just will never work,
(15:06):
but we've got to get to that point.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
If we look at your backyard that the Kings, how
difficult is it to retain players currently, particularly that middle tier.
You look at Vienna North for Roley Higgins is leaving,
Devin Flanders has got a big money offer on the
table from Japan. How difficult is it for clubs to
attain these players?
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Well, do you want me to state the obvious or how
it's impossible. It's impossible when we know how it all works.
They get paid so much from the Zone Rugby Union
and then there's an ability to have other payments made.
But you know, everyone is struggling, and so within New
(15:56):
Zealand we're struggling to keep our players from going from
one super to the other. But from the overseas, there's
just no comparison. You know, we just cannot pay those
players the numbers that they're being often and that's a shame.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
What's the latest you're hearing about the competition? It could
be a ten team competition next year. There's potential change,
as you mentioned, everything's on the table potentially. How do
you envision the competition looking in the short term next year?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
I don't know. We're just really still trying to get
our head around what's going to happen to the CIA
and how that's play out. But yeah, really haven't got
a view on that at the moment. I think it's sad,
but you know, it's obviously it's not sustainable.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
So then, Malcolm, a couple of weeks ago, about a
month ago now, you wrote an open letter to your fans,
the Hurricanes fans, and urging them to fill the seats
at Henry Stadium for the season. What motivated you, apart
from us the numbers themselves, what might have motivated you
to to put pen to paper or keys to the
(17:13):
keyboard and write that letter.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Now, we had a bit of a strategy we when
we got involved with the Hurricanes. We felt that as
a as a group, previous to that that we there's
a lot of things that we hadn't done that well.
We we we believe we hadn't necessarily looked after our
provincial union as well. We hadn't brought them on the journey.
(17:42):
I don't think at that stage we felt that we
treated our fans right and that we basically looked after them.
We also felt our past players and when we looked
at you know, why why aren't people going to the
stadiums anymore? We felt, Look, the best thing we can
do is let's find out what's going on and let's
(18:05):
start making some linroads. Let's start looking after our pus.
So we engage with our provincial unions and ask them,
you know, what do we need to do. We've got
to plan now our past players. We've got a very
very strong past player group. They were very supportive, but
we've worked harder with them. We had them at the
stadium and it was great to have them there the
(18:28):
ninety sixteen going out on the ground and we've surveyed
our fans, found out what they want and we're try
and do as much as we can against all odds,
trying to address that. So for Henry's Stadium, you know,
we've surveyed them and they're saying to us, and they
were saying to us because we want to get on
(18:51):
the field. So we go to the stadium and say
we need our fans on the field of it, you know,
and you know, we've had to fight tooth and nail. Oh,
you can have them this week, but next week we've
got to do some seeding, so you can't have them.
So having to fight hard. But we've had two two games,
(19:11):
and the fans are coming back and saying, this is
what we want. We want to get back on the field.
After the game. They're telling us, you know, and it's
no secret, but they're telling us the stadium the food
is too dear, the alcohol is too dere. They're wanting
better experience. So we've doubled our spin. We went and
found out what sc is doing. How much is their
(19:33):
spind with Kojo on Prenaturally Entertainment. We went and found
out to talk to the worries what they're doing. We
doubled our spin. We've got more lights coming up, more bands,
so you know, we're doing everything we can to provide
a better entertainment. We're trying to work with the stadium.
You know, like fighting tooth and nail. But we know
(19:54):
what people are saying, I mean, money's tight. We surveyed
them and we thought that, you know, maybe three transport
was something that was stopping people. But you know, that wasn't.
That wasn't one of the things. What came out of
our last four thousand we put out. We've got four
hundred and fifty back. What came out was basically conflict
(20:18):
and lifestyle. You know, the times that we're playing. People
want four o'clock games and we're forced to do it
at seven. We want mom and dad and the kids
to come, but we're playing at seven. We should be
playing at four, they're saying. The next thing is they're
saying it's two beer, you know, fourteen dollars a can
(20:41):
of beer, seven fifty. We've worked with our supplies, our Brians,
and we've got them to package up ten dollar fish
and chip yields. We've got them to give away five
and are there are five hundred and ten dollar out
just three food for kids. We've got them to allow
food trucks in the concourse so that people have a choice,
(21:05):
different foods, different prices. Next thing we need is to
ensure that we've got our fans on the field every
game because that's what they want. And we've also probably
you know, still got a bit I think with the
food and beverage to get that pricing down to that families.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
To afford it.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
The Warriors are coming to town this week and they've
sold out Henry Stadium. Is that a scarcity thing? What's
your reaction to the Warriors being able to fill those seats.
But obviously, and as you say, you guys are doing
everything you possibly can to figure out the crowd issue
for Super Rugby.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Well it wasn't that many years ago. They couldn't either,
so we just found out what they did, we're doing.
It's hopefully in a few years from will be in
the position. I think that they've done some things really well.
I think they've got an emotional attachment to there, to there,
to their fans. I think they've maximized they've spent the
(22:04):
money on the gate pregame entertainment, and I think, you know,
they've got to here city thing, the only pray here
once a year, and I think they've got a good product.
I think they've done a bloody good job, to be honest,
and I think if we take on board some of
the things that they've done and look after our people
the way they have, that's a waste war.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Some bloody good initiatives there, Malcolm around the stadium and
and you know, really appreciate what you're trying to achieve.
H I'm not sure how long you're looking to be
involved for, but what is your vision for the Hurricanes,
for Super Rugby? You know we've discussed a lot of
challenges here, but are you a believer? I believe in
(22:48):
what and that Super Ugby can I guess rise again
and captivate people like it used to.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Unless there is a fundamental change. No, all right, If
it stays the way it is now, I see for
I fear for it. If there's change, then I believe
we've got a product. But if it just stays the same,
(23:18):
I think it's going to die. That's my mister opinion.
And I think even more than that, if it doesn't change,
it's not going to achieve what New Zealand Rugby wants.
It's not going to achieve what private investments want, and
it probably isn't going to achieve what the fans want,
and it certainly won't achieve what the players want. So
(23:38):
the answer is it's got to change.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
And do you believe that change will come?
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Well, I'm going to give it the best shot, but
if it doesn't, I won't be hanging around.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
Yeah, and I guess there's not a lot of.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
People out there like yourself that are willing to invest
significant sums of money.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
You know, Miana the rebels.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That these are examples of cases where it hasn't worked.
So if you can't achieve change, then it's going to
be very challenging for other people as well.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
No, you did, right, But I mean you guys probably
can see it as much as I can. If it
doesn't change, it will not survive, right, So that's just
you know, I can't change that. And I also if
people won't change, then all I can do is try.
And I'm sure that you know we'll give it our
(24:39):
best shot. But then what do you do.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Unless some elliot's got anything else? Should we finish on
a positive note? And you can tell us why the
Hurricanes win the title this year?
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Why they will? Well, I tell you they've got really,
really good coaches. They've got a fantastic group of coaches,
They've got a great roster, they've got great team spirit.
This didn't all happen just because when I got involved,
I had nothing to do with any of those things.
(25:14):
To be fair, over the last two to three years,
it's been building. You know, they've recruited well, they've got
quality coaches and so from you know, what we're trying
to do is just we honestly believe this is our year.
And I talked to Clark last year. Last year he
(25:34):
told me it was going to be the Hurricanes year
this year, and I think he was, you know, he knew,
he knew that they were growing. So you know, there
are a great group of guys, and you know, really
I hope we can do them justice by turning around
the finances. Behind the scenes, you know, we've made a
(25:55):
lot of the roads into into getting more sponsorship, sorting
out better business systems, making sure the board is all
aligned with the team, getting direction. Everyone's working really hard.
The most exciting part is you wait till those women
start playing. They're going to show a brand of rugby
(26:18):
out there and the determination to do well that we've
never seen down here before.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
But certainly music to our is here. Rugby directors, big
Hurricanes fans, Malcolm.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Well you know, there are a great team of guys
and I think everyone that's really involved in rugby and
New Zealand Super clubs. I think, you know, if there's
ever been a time when everyone's aligned that something has
to happen. You know, you've got a lot of good
men there. You've got Bill Osborne from the Chiefs, great
(26:56):
great man. He you know, he's pushing. You've got a
lot of good people out there that know that we
have to do something for the betterment of Super Rugby
and New Zealand rugby. And there's no use just being
the person that just complains that I ain't doing what
everyone wants it to do. I think we've just got
to get out there and try and get it sorted out.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, great passion, that's what we want to hear in
the game. Malcolm. Really appreciate your time with us on
Rugby Direct and look forward to catching up again and
maybe once the Hurricanes Men and Women when the titles
he might speak again later in the year.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Yeah, I hope so, I hope. So I won't say
I told you so.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Malcolm Gillies joining myself and Liam on Rugby to reach
Liam some really interesting thoughts from Malcolm Gillies. We recorded
a couple of days ago. We've had a couple of
days to think about what he had to say. Look,
he raised some really interesting and different perspectives, didn't he.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yeah, I think very forthright views and that's what the
game needs right now. I think in large part he's
right that Super Rugby needs to evolve, needs to change.
I don't necessarily think that all of those things that
he put forward are achievable, but you can't knock his passion.
Speaker 6 (28:10):
He's stumping up.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Millions of dollars to prop up the Hurricanes and so
his voice needs to be heard.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Would privatization work is my question?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Like I guess, New Zealand's not a huge economy and
you need probably overseas in vestors. You've seen Bill Foley
with Aukland FC, but he's now taking an interest in
Exeterter Chiefs in the last few days. But is there
enough money around New Zealand Slash the World to come
in and go yep, give me those one of those
five franchises.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Not in a New Zealand's context alone. And I think
Malcolm makes a good point that right now, being a
private investment in Super rugby is not attractive because you
don't have that level of control.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Your players a contractors in New Zealand rugby, you bet
the b his hist of maybe whether they want to
risk players and various other things there. You are a
franchise basically, it's like owning you know, I mc donald's
or whatever. You are reportable to the top office that
have to release a lot of those controls to make
it a legitimate private run competition.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Yeah, and it's not just player contracting, it's also the stadiums.
They're all separate entities in their own right. Malcolm was
talking about having to fight tooth and nail to let
players on the ground and all the changes he's trying
to make. Well, it's the same for most, if not
all other Super rugby teams as well. The Blues they
have to work with Eden Park to change anything. The
(29:39):
Crusaders in the new stadium, they'll have to pay quite
a significant fee from what I'm hearing to go there
with no horses, no horses, they can't do what they want.
Speaker 6 (29:47):
So not only is it with.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
The players and recruitments. Malcolm talked about wanting to recruit
more overseas stars. So you are quite restricted at every turn.
So if you're a wealthy backer there, how much influence
can you have? How attractive is it? How many people
like that are out there too? Sure, but if there
(30:11):
were more, if there was a better avenue for more control,
then maybe it would be more attractive.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Indeed, his point late in the interview about Super Rugby,
if it doesn't change, it'll die, was fairly stark. And look,
as he said, there are people willing to get the
heads around the table, get the bodies on the table,
and try and make some big calls here. But that
was fairly start from an owner or a co owner
of a franchise to go things don't change, this comp
(30:37):
will die.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, And look he is in a more informed position
than many of us in that he has the Hurricanes
box in front of him and.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
Moana the Rebels. They aren't alone. Super Rugby is struggling.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Financially, and that's not isolated in this part of the world.
It is a very prevalent issue throughout professional rugby globally,
perhaps other than the top fourteen where the bank are
backed by hugely wealthy individuals. Not just from a financial perspective,
look at crowds, you know, You can talk the scarcity
(31:13):
of the Warriors selling out Wellington and the Hurricanes getting
thirteen thousand to the Blues, but attracting crowds is an
issue that's not going away. That's directly tied to generating
enough revenue to keep you afloat. So there are massive
issues and whether it is a draft, whether it's eligibility, privatization,
kickoff times. Malcolm mentioned he wants to play at four
(31:36):
o'clock and they are told they can only play at seven.
All these little things can make incremental gains, but there
does need to be changed.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, what was that quote that's done the rounds from
John Flett, the former owner of Sky or CEO of
Sky going in play games in the afternoon. But here's
the difference in the fee between what you get for
that and what you get at seven o'clock at night
in terms of the broadcast. There are reasons I guess
on every turn as to why things can't be done.
But just to wrap up, it is good to hear
an owner of a team or a franchise come out
(32:07):
and go, you know, things do need to change in
the sport, and he's got some ideas and maybe they
won't work some of them, but maybe some of them
can work. It's refreshing to hear some big corse here.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah, I think you've got your head in the sand.
If you think everything's rosy and super rugby, you can't
sit there and say the competition is amazing, we're making bank.
Everything's great. Look, the on field product has been good
and the law tweaks. The entertainment product is right up
there in terms of rugby globally, and the viewership we're
(32:42):
told is good. But things do need to change. They
need to evolve because you're looking at a ten tem
competition next year. There's not that true Jeopardy, and you've
got people like Graham Henry coming out and saying this
competition is not preparing enough athletes to compete on the
world stage. And you'd have to say the competition on
(33:08):
a regular basis is not there, is not at the
level you want it to be.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
So things do need to evolve.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Quick break Malcolm Gillies with us on rugberect will take
a break, come back and get into some more rugby
news after this, you're back with rugby. It's a rigged
power by ns he in Safety, Blackwoods some more Rugby
news during the week. The return of Gilbert and Noke
to the All Black set up his leadership and mental
skills coach doctor James mcgavey, also returning after a couple
of years away. I guess leam your reaction the final
(33:37):
perhaps pieces in the puzzle to Dave Reni's staff.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Perhaps a bit of a surprise, I think, well to
me and most people didn't hear that, didn't know it
was on the table. Gilbert and Oke left a couple
of years ago and went up to Chelsea, but of
a short term stint. They're not too sure about how
that wents. But look at his time in the All
Blacks was largely marked by great success and if you
(34:03):
talk to a number of senior players, they really.
Speaker 6 (34:06):
Valued his inputs.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I probably have some reservations about the modern day player,
the younger guy, and whether that same connection piece is there,
But I think it's a great recruit from Dave Ready,
very savvy. I think he would have listened to player
feedback and taken that on board and gone after anokah,
and he's done well to bring him back in that regard.
So's that's a tick.
Speaker 6 (34:31):
What about you?
Speaker 3 (34:32):
What sort of things do you think Anoka could bring
to the environment that perhaps Kerry Evans didn't.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
Well.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I think he's obviously had some experience away from rugby
in the last eighteen months. As you mentioned, he's been
with Chelsea, he done it with the England cricket team,
done to work with the new South Wales state of
Origin team, experienced some different environments and no doubt would
have taken the lessons of what has and hasn't worked
in those respective fields and probably come back with a
different perspective. I know who He spoke to Darcy Watergrave
(35:00):
earlier in the week and said, you know, time away
has been valuable and you know, just getting away from
rugby and the all Blacks environments and taking stock of that,
so probably comes in with a different appreciation of what
makes some players tick. When he comes back in there'll
be some players that he knows, obviously that you know,
the Cody Taylor's bow and Barrett's of the world, but
there'll be a lot that he doesn't though, and you
(35:20):
know it's going to be a fresh face and a
different face and that'll be challenging in terms of engaging
with that. But he is highly regarded and hearing what
he had to say around the number of ex coaches
that urged him to get back involved. You know, Graham, Henry,
Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen, Joe Schmidty and Foster all basically said,
you know, get in touch. I believe was Wayne Smith
(35:41):
who passes number on to Dave Rennie. Yeah, I think
it's a good appointment for the All Blacks. So we'll
see how it goes.
Speaker 6 (35:48):
Yeah, I watch this space.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Look, it is an incredibly important field, I think, and
having a sounding board between the coaches and the players
is valuable because as much as a head coach develops relationships,
they're still the selector. The buck still stops of them.
They have to create a bit of distance. They can't
be too matey mate. So having someone who is a
(36:11):
bit autonomous, a bit detached, is really valuable. I think
from a players perspective, it'll be up to an Oka
to build that trust with the players that he doesn't.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Know it will be indeed become unstoppable. Read his book
over something very interesting reading on that front. Let's get
into the weekend here and it is of course super
Round in christ Church, the new National Stadium opening up.
We're very excited. I'm looking forward to It's been a
long time in the making as a cantabri in myself.
As if there weren't already enough storylines ahead of this weekend.
Rob Penny comes out and goes right, Lester, fang Onuku,
(36:44):
you're gonna wear the number seven jersey. What was your reaction?
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Yeah, the marketing department of Dunewell to convince Rob to
do that, haven't they?
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Look?
Speaker 3 (36:53):
The Crusaders are clearly down on troops. No Ethan Blackheader
and a number of others there. But I think a
massive surprise, really, Lester. I interviewed him in Perth last
year as he made his comeback for the All Blacks
and he talked about switch from the midfield to the
loose forwards playing for Toulon in France. But I don't
(37:13):
think he ever started at open Soide Flanka to my knowledge, No, no,
So it's a massive shift. I don't think it's a
long term move. I think maybe he has that potential
in him, but it's going to be very interesting to
see how he goes. You think about Andre Esterhesen in
South Africa, Oli Mathis, there are examples around the world
(37:38):
and he's got the frame for it, but it's a
massive change.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
It is a massive change, but I'm intrigued to see
how it goes. Like, if it comes off, then it
just changes everything. But it changes the dynamic of the
Crusaders the rest of the season and what they think
about in terms of the makeup of their team.
Speaker 6 (37:57):
Do you think we'll see it again?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Maybe look for a success and he's pilfering turnovers and
he's making big strides across the park, and his work
at the breakdown it's good, and he's still able to
roam around. Maybe, like, if it's a successful move, why
wouldn't you look at it more often?
Speaker 6 (38:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
I think here word value closer line, he's incredibly difficult
to stop. So from the base, I'm sure he'll be
sniping around there. And my question is really around the
finer details of jackling the breakdown. Does he give away
too many penalties? Does he get his timing right? Is
he going to stay on his feet? Does he get
(38:37):
his hands on the grounds.
Speaker 6 (38:38):
Over the ball?
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Some of those intricacies are really hard to master and
to actually take a long time.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
He won the penalty that got the Crusaders the victory
in twenty twenty three against the Chiefs and Hamilton Jack
with the ball got over the top of it. He
is a good presence at the breakdown. Again, you're gonna
have to do this full time now, it's not you
spot an opportunity when you're playing the Backs. This is
his full time job for this game. So it's gonna
be fascinated to see.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
How it goes.
Speaker 6 (39:01):
I absolutely can't wait.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeap, we'll see the all Blacks implications of that, but
you know, following the steps of armor core him Todd
in terms of we're in that Red and Black Crusaders
number seven pretty special. Who you tipping for that game?
Crusaders were at seven to thirty five, incidentally half an
hour delay to the usual kickoff time.
Speaker 6 (39:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Look, the Crusaders won that comfortably. Some big names coming back,
Cody Taylor, Fletchernewell, a couple of others as well. Still
down on troops to a degree, but surely the Waratars
can't spoil that homecoming party you.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Certainly hope not describe at halftime. Doesn't get much better.
Hurricanes Brumbies five oh five, Saturday afternoon. This is on
neutral territory. The Hurricanes have not traveled that well to
canber in recent times. Do they continue or bounce back
rather from their loss last week?
Speaker 3 (39:50):
I think they do, but I'm expecting this to be
the closest match of the weekend. The Brumbies have gone
really well against New Zealand teams this weekend. As you mentioned,
it's neutral territory. I think the fact that's under a
roof probably suits the Hurricanes. We talked about how they
played too conservatively with the one that back in the
second half last week. I hope they go back to
(40:10):
that more attacking brand of rugby that served them well
this year. So I'm tipping the Canes, but I do
expect it to be a bit squeaky.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah. If the Brumbies hadn't lost last week to the
Drewer in canber It inexplicably, then I might have looked
at the Brumbies potentially, but I think the Hurricanes will
just be too good to just say under the roof
in christ Blues read seven thirty five on Saturday what
is now a traditional and Zach Day fixture between these
two sides. Reds won last year at Suncorp Stadium. The Blues, though,
(40:42):
you know, we're poor against the Hurricanes week prior to last.
We're good for an hour against the Highlanders, then sort
of lost the plot a little bit, interesting game, but
I think the Blues get home.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, I think the Blues and I think they'll do
it comfortably. The Reds down on troops. They are missing
Carter Gordon and one of their other tensins out as
well here Onliner, So yeah, I think the Blues will
go through the middle and maybe be a bit more
expensive as well, with the conditions set to be pristine,
So I think they do it well.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Been Volivo coming off the bench with the Reds and
Jack Debrassini coming off the starting for the Wartars. Some
really interesting selections been volivil E Scrusader of course. Homecoming,
homecoming for the great Man Highlanders. Moana Pacifica on Sunday afternoon.
Interesting old game this Mourana were good for periods of
(41:34):
that game against the war Tars last week. A lot
of emotion around that. Obviously. Can they carry themselves to
a win against the Highlanders.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
It wouldn't be a total shock, but I think the
Highlanders win. They smacked Mowana in Albany earlier this year
when the lights went out late in that game, which
is really bizarre. So I think they get up again.
But yeah, it's a tough old scenario, isn't it. How
long can Moana carry that spirit with the guillotine effectively
(42:06):
hanging over them?
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Oh look, I'm going just to be slightly different because
we took the same so far. I'm going to tip
more on to Pacifica for an upset and the Chiefs
Fijian drew it to wrap up super around full thirty
on Sunday afternoons.
Speaker 6 (42:17):
To be a cracker, won't it.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
And I think high scoring the ball have plenty of
air the Duror coming off their famous win in camera,
but the Chiefs are pretty stacked, so I think they'll
enjoy that trip to christ Church.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah, I think they will as well. I'm going to
go the Chiefs for that one. You incidentally picked three
right last week, Blues, Wartas and Force the Great Force. Yes,
so you're on thirty. I picked one right. It was
a tough It was a tough round, so you got
thirty to twenty six lead in that one. No mail
bag this week, Tim, I am working away at that question.
(42:52):
I'll come back next week with some answers. We'll be
back with the mail by next week, though Rugby directed
at news Talk ZB dot co dot in z to
get in touch and we'll be back with one pod
late next week once super Round has calmed down a
little bit. Maybe on Thursday. It dost settle a little
bit and re group for another podlem.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Yeah, Ristener recover. Looking forward to ripping in and enjoying
everything crushed.
Speaker 6 (43:13):
It has to offer.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
It's very hospitable.
Speaker 6 (43:15):
Give you the red carpet for me.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I've arranged that. I've spoken to the people at christ
Year Report and you just wait when you get off
the plane. We'll be back with another episode as a
CD next week. Thanks to Mark Kelly for producing, and
thanks to Ends in Safety, black Woods, Everything Tradees need.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Sorters for more from News Talks ed B. Listen live
on air or online, and keep our shows with you
wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio, Straight
Down the Middle Trust try get inside the game from
(00:30):
every end goal. It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith and
Leam Navier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by NS and Safety Black Woods,
Everything tradees need sorted back for another week. Elliott Smith
with me Liam Napier, Big Old podcast head. Very shortly
we will get into the tipping some team you, some
big team news out of some of the teams for
this week. Also some more changes in the all Black setup.
(00:58):
We'll get into that very very shortly. But first and foremost,
we are joined by Hurricanes cheer Malcolm Gillies and co
owner Malcolm Gillies on Rugby Direct to talk a ray
of issues. Obviously in the wake of Morna Pacifica disbanding
after the season, Malcolm was good enough to give us
some of his time early in the week to go
over some of the key issues in rugby and where
(01:20):
we sit. Great pleasure to have Malcolm Gillies with us
on Rugby Directs.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Welcome Malcolm to Rugby Direct. Thank you very much for
making the time today. We want to kick off. I
guess by discussing your role with the Hurricanes last year.
You know, the franchise lost over two million dollars and
you bought in fifty percent steak. Can you just talk
us through why you did that? And I guess the
(01:47):
motivation behind getting involved with the Hurricanes.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Yeah, Look, it wasn't just me. It was myself and
a gentleman called John Mallon. We got together up and
the reason we got involved is both willing to rugby
and the Hurricanes are tenants of mine. CIAC. Wellington Rugby
(02:13):
came to me and we've been helping them, sponsoring them
and allowing them to basically stay here rent free. They
came to us and explained that their situation was pretty
dire and that they needed to effectively sell their shares
in the Hurricanes. So you know, it wasn't my wasn't
(02:36):
my bournie. The ambition to own a sports things quite frankly,
but you know, I'm very passionate and so is John
about rugby and particularly Wellington Rugby. It's something very very
special to me. So it was really about helping them,
so we got involved initially thinking well, it'll help Wellington
(02:57):
and you know, we need to get involved with the Hurricanes.
There wasn't until we decided to help Wellington that we
actually found out the Hurricanes were in probably worst position
what Wellington were, and by that stage there was no
getting out of it. Initially, you know, we led to
believe that they might be running a small deficit of
(03:18):
two to three hundred grand, and you know that blew
out to about two and a half million. So you're
in that jet. What are you going to do? So
we sort of thought, well, we're going to be positive
about this and we're going to sort it out so effectively,
that's what we've done. We just got boots and are
(03:40):
all Wellington. You know, hopefully that helped them. I know
that they've still got struggles themselves, and of course what
we've done is you know, ripped into how we're going
to try and sort the Hurricanes out.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
If are you good on?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
You're for getting involved in obviously the greatest franchise and
Super rugby.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
Elliot might disagree. He's a he's a staunch Cantebrian.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
This year they win both the men and the woman,
so what a turnaround next?
Speaker 5 (04:10):
I look forward to it.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
If we take a step back and look at the
super rugby landscape as a whole, you know, it's a
very challenging financial climate. The last couple of years have
seen the rebels go under Miner PACIFICA highly likely to
end at the end of this year. It costs, as
you know, around ten to twelve million to run a
super rugby team. It's challenging to get crowds involved. Do
(04:35):
you consign yourself when you get involved as a as
a major investor that this is a loss making venture.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
No, not at all. I think the reality is when
we got involved with you was losing money. When we
actually got involved and looked, the model doesn't work and
unless there's change, it's not going to work. You've got
(05:04):
five franchises, six franchises in New Zealand, and none of
them are exactly making a lot of money. So you
know there's got to be change. And you know, I'm
advocating that there has to be changed. The whole system
has to change. I don't think it's sustainable as it
sits right now.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
What means to change.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
A hell of a lot the way it's structured. My
belief is that probably needs to be privatized and you know, yeah, look,
I could go on and on, but you know, I
think it's kind of knowledge that it has to be sorted.
Cannot continue the way it is at the moment.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Malcolm, do you think there are too many restrictions on
what you can do from a New Zealand rugby and
Super rugby level in terms of player recruitment and everything
else like that? Is there too many handbrakes on what
you're able to do with what is your team?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
We're working within the boundaries, all right, and I think,
you know, let's be honest, that's what you've got to do.
But if you were looking at all the problems you've got,
and if you listened and read things that grow to
Graham Henry saying the competition isn't producing what it should do.
(06:27):
It's not producing quality players that can compete on the
international scene. So it's not producing what New Zealand rugby wants.
New Zealand Rugby wants a super competition to produce black
ferns or blacks and at a level that they're going
(06:49):
to be competitive, and everyone's saying we're not doing that.
So that's got to be sorted. Now, How do you
sort that. You guys probably know it better than me.
But there's some short term strategies and there must be
some long ter. You've got to change the competition to
give you a competition, to give you those sorts of people.
(07:11):
And people say, right, yoh, well, should we bring in
South Africa? Should we try and bring in Japan? Should
we try? And you know those things when you look
at it, I won't be here long enough. I'm sixty seven.
I'll be dead before that's even results because they take forever.
What is the short term strategy to improve the competition? Now,
(07:37):
there's so many answers, but surely those some of those
things is to allow our overseas players to come and
play in our competition. That's just a suggestion. Why wouldn't
you You imagine that you had that big guy from
the big South Africa lot coming over here. That had
certainly solved some of the crowd problems, wouldn't they Because
(07:59):
you're going to fire, You're going to get people wanting
to come and see some world class players. Look, I
don't know if it's practical, but I do see that
it's a major problem is we're not doing what they
expect us to produce. We're not producing world class players
and that's because the competition apparently isn't strong enough. Now,
(08:21):
the game I saw between the Chiefs and the Hurricanes
on Saturday night, I thought it was a pretty damn
good game. But if that's not good enough, and wouldn't
be for me to tell Sir Graham Henry, but he's
come out in the paper and saying that competition isn't
doing what it should be doing. So it's up to
us to come up with some answers to that. And
(08:43):
if you start to really brainstorm, you know, the short
term strategy seems to me is that maybe if we
can't get other countries to get involved, might be a
short term strategy to get other players to be allowed
to come in and play. And you look at the
guy Doings that came in out of Japan. Now look
what a difference that made. You know, it's the Hurricanes
(09:08):
become a bit of a sort of a folk hero,
isn't it. So you know, maybe maybe you should be
allowed to open the gates and maybe we should be
looking at bringing more people in like that.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Do you think, Malcolm, that there's the money to bring
in some of these overseas studs.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
No, I didn't say it was going to solve all
the problems, but you know there's there's more than one
play here. I mean, you've got to look at all
your stakeholders and I think what we're doing now is
super Clubs is trying to get round the table and
be proactive. Everyone with half a brain knows something's got
(09:49):
to change, and that's part of it. All I'm suggesting
is we've got to get this competition producing quality all
blacks and make firms. How are we going to do it?
And money will leave one of those issues?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
What about things like a There's been long talk about
a system and eligibility where the zeal And Australian players
can swing between the countries and still be eligible for
their national teams. What's your view on our draft system
and their eligibility in its current form.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Well, once again I'm not the NZ at R anyway,
but it seems to me that that would be practical.
You know, if you looked around, if you want your
players to be getting quality competition and you can't give
it to them in this country, why wouldn't you allow
(10:45):
them to go somewhere else and play and still select them.
That to me seems one way of getting the competition
you need. Wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Absolutely? And I think you know, there seems that we
are willingness from people like yourself and other CEOs, you know,
Carl Budget the Blues to try something different, look at
this competition a little bit differly. Do you think that
across the board people are willing to perhaps explore things
a little bit differently and not use the status quo
as a reason for withholding change.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I don't think there's ever ever been as much motivation
to look at things differently as there is right now.
As chattan of the Hurricanes, I've only just got involved
on the new boy on the Block. I've only been
to two meetings. I haven't been evicted from any of
them just yet. But what I do, since there is
a there's a will to explore change and all options,
(11:45):
and I think most from what there's a desire to
not to just try and tweak it. There has to
be there has to be something, you know, fundamentally change
for this thing to work. And I think all things
are going to be on the table. You've got to
(12:06):
be looking at you know, when you really look at it.
Why have we got a system where a player goes
over so why aren't we getting a transfer fee? Why
isn't that passed back to the rugby clubby come from
to the Hurricanes. Why is it that we sit here
and we train and we nurture our people and we
(12:31):
can't afford to meet and they go to Japan. You know,
we've got SNC trainers that are ruining three times. You
can't blame the guys, know for to taking the money.
We need to have a goal in Super Rugby to
have the best competition in the world that pays the
(12:53):
most to their players and to their coaches, and that
should be driving us to try and get some sort
of result out of us. You know, you can explore
all things. Should we be actually contracting and paying the players?
Mm hm, you know, should we have a contract just
to release them for international journeys? You know, there's a
(13:17):
lot of stakeholders here and you're going to get them
all onside. But I mean, some of these things all
of us can see. They're no brainers, aren't they. You mean,
what wouldn't you look at the league system and say, well,
should we not be looking at the way how that works?
And bringing some of that back into this running the clubs.
(13:39):
I mean, if you want private investment into these super clubs,
you've got to give them someone to investor. There's not
a lot there that you would get people to invest
in what I've seen.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well, if you open up to private investors, obviously there
could be some overseas brands potentially that come in, you know,
New Zealand. We talk about New Zealand's economy and whether
that's got the funding. But if you open up to privatization,
there are no doubt I'm sure you know be seeing
bill Fold come into the A League and various other
ventures around the globe that I'm sure be interested in,
you know, buying the license or running those teams, you know,
(14:16):
on a on a bigger scale end. They'd probably look
at the rules and go, why can't we do that?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
I think so yeah. I mean there's going to be
a lot of challenges, isn't there. I mean, if you know,
if you look at it, but they're not insurmountable. And
if there's a will, there's a way. And if you
can get round the table and the stakeholders all want
to you know, it to work, I think you can
(14:45):
work your way through it. I mean you can find
a big list of all the things that you've got
to deal with, like you know, and there are things
that you can say, right yeah, well, I mean from
my point of view, I know that there has to
be changed and we've got to make you know, we're
going to have to get out there and make some
change and some things maybe it just will never work,
(15:06):
but we've got to get to that point.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
If we look at your backyard that the Kings, how
difficult is it to retain players currently, particularly that middle tier.
You look at Vienna North for Roley Higgins is leaving,
Devin Flanders has got a big money offer on the
table from Japan. How difficult is it for clubs to
attain these players?
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Well, do you want me to state the obvious or how
it's impossible. It's impossible when we know how it all works.
They get paid so much from the Zone Rugby Union
and then there's an ability to have other payments made.
But you know, everyone is struggling, and so within New
(15:56):
Zealand we're struggling to keep our players from going from
one super to the other. But from the overseas, there's
just no comparison. You know, we just cannot pay those
players the numbers that they're being often and that's a shame.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
What's the latest you're hearing about the competition? It could
be a ten team competition next year. There's potential change,
as you mentioned, everything's on the table potentially. How do
you envision the competition looking in the short term next year?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
I don't know. We're just really still trying to get
our head around what's going to happen to the CIA
and how that's play out. But yeah, really haven't got
a view on that at the moment. I think it's sad,
but you know, it's obviously it's not sustainable.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
So then, Malcolm, a couple of weeks ago, about a
month ago now, you wrote an open letter to your fans,
the Hurricanes fans, and urging them to fill the seats
at Henry Stadium for the season. What motivated you, apart
from us the numbers themselves, what might have motivated you
to to put pen to paper or keys to the
(17:13):
keyboard and write that letter.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Now, we had a bit of a strategy we when
we got involved with the Hurricanes. We felt that as
a as a group, previous to that that we there's
a lot of things that we hadn't done that well.
We we we believe we hadn't necessarily looked after our
provincial union as well. We hadn't brought them on the journey.
(17:42):
I don't think at that stage we felt that we
treated our fans right and that we basically looked after them.
We also felt our past players and when we looked
at you know, why why aren't people going to the
stadiums anymore? We felt, Look, the best thing we can
do is let's find out what's going on and let's
(18:05):
start making some linroads. Let's start looking after our pus.
So we engage with our provincial unions and ask them,
you know, what do we need to do. We've got
to plan now our past players. We've got a very
very strong past player group. They were very supportive, but
we've worked harder with them. We had them at the
stadium and it was great to have them there the
(18:28):
ninety sixteen going out on the ground and we've surveyed
our fans, found out what they want and we're try
and do as much as we can against all odds,
trying to address that. So for Henry's Stadium, you know,
we've surveyed them and they're saying to us, and they
were saying to us because we want to get on
(18:51):
the field. So we go to the stadium and say
we need our fans on the field of it, you know,
and you know, we've had to fight tooth and nail. Oh,
you can have them this week, but next week we've
got to do some seeding, so you can't have them.
So having to fight hard. But we've had two two games,
(19:11):
and the fans are coming back and saying, this is
what we want. We want to get back on the field.
After the game. They're telling us, you know, and it's
no secret, but they're telling us the stadium the food
is too dear, the alcohol is too dere. They're wanting
better experience. So we've doubled our spin. We went and
found out what sc is doing. How much is their
(19:33):
spind with Kojo on Prenaturally Entertainment. We went and found
out to talk to the worries what they're doing. We
doubled our spin. We've got more lights coming up, more bands,
so you know, we're doing everything we can to provide
a better entertainment. We're trying to work with the stadium.
You know, like fighting tooth and nail. But we know
(19:54):
what people are saying, I mean, money's tight. We surveyed
them and we thought that, you know, maybe three transport
was something that was stopping people. But you know, that wasn't.
That wasn't one of the things. What came out of
our last four thousand we put out. We've got four
hundred and fifty back. What came out was basically conflict
(20:18):
and lifestyle. You know, the times that we're playing. People
want four o'clock games and we're forced to do it
at seven. We want mom and dad and the kids
to come, but we're playing at seven. We should be
playing at four, they're saying. The next thing is they're
saying it's two beer, you know, fourteen dollars a can
(20:41):
of beer, seven fifty. We've worked with our supplies, our Brians,
and we've got them to package up ten dollar fish
and chip yields. We've got them to give away five
and are there are five hundred and ten dollar out
just three food for kids. We've got them to allow
food trucks in the concourse so that people have a choice,
(21:05):
different foods, different prices. Next thing we need is to
ensure that we've got our fans on the field every
game because that's what they want. And we've also probably
you know, still got a bit I think with the
food and beverage to get that pricing down to that families.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
To afford it.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
The Warriors are coming to town this week and they've
sold out Henry Stadium. Is that a scarcity thing? What's
your reaction to the Warriors being able to fill those seats.
But obviously, and as you say, you guys are doing
everything you possibly can to figure out the crowd issue
for Super Rugby.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Well it wasn't that many years ago. They couldn't either,
so we just found out what they did, we're doing.
It's hopefully in a few years from will be in
the position. I think that they've done some things really well.
I think they've got an emotional attachment to there, to there,
to their fans. I think they've maximized they've spent the
(22:04):
money on the gate pregame entertainment, and I think, you know,
they've got to here city thing, the only pray here
once a year, and I think they've got a good product.
I think they've done a bloody good job, to be honest,
and I think if we take on board some of
the things that they've done and look after our people
the way they have, that's a waste war.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Some bloody good initiatives there, Malcolm around the stadium and
and you know, really appreciate what you're trying to achieve.
H I'm not sure how long you're looking to be
involved for, but what is your vision for the Hurricanes,
for Super Rugby? You know we've discussed a lot of
challenges here, but are you a believer? I believe in
(22:48):
what and that Super Ugby can I guess rise again
and captivate people like it used to.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Unless there is a fundamental change. No, all right, If
it stays the way it is now, I see for
I fear for it. If there's change, then I believe
we've got a product. But if it just stays the same,
(23:18):
I think it's going to die. That's my mister opinion.
And I think even more than that, if it doesn't change,
it's not going to achieve what New Zealand Rugby wants.
It's not going to achieve what private investments want, and
it probably isn't going to achieve what the fans want,
and it certainly won't achieve what the players want. So
(23:38):
the answer is it's got to change.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
And do you believe that change will come?
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Well, I'm going to give it the best shot, but
if it doesn't, I won't be hanging around.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
Yeah, and I guess there's not a lot of.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
People out there like yourself that are willing to invest
significant sums of money.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
You know, Miana the rebels.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That these are examples of cases where it hasn't worked.
So if you can't achieve change, then it's going to
be very challenging for other people as well.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
No, you did, right, But I mean you guys probably
can see it as much as I can. If it
doesn't change, it will not survive, right, So that's just
you know, I can't change that. And I also if
people won't change, then all I can do is try.
And I'm sure that you know we'll give it our
(24:39):
best shot. But then what do you do.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Unless some elliot's got anything else? Should we finish on
a positive note? And you can tell us why the
Hurricanes win the title this year?
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Why they will? Well, I tell you they've got really,
really good coaches. They've got a fantastic group of coaches,
They've got a great roster, they've got great team spirit.
This didn't all happen just because when I got involved,
I had nothing to do with any of those things.
(25:14):
To be fair, over the last two to three years,
it's been building. You know, they've recruited well, they've got
quality coaches and so from you know, what we're trying
to do is just we honestly believe this is our year.
And I talked to Clark last year. Last year he
(25:34):
told me it was going to be the Hurricanes year
this year, and I think he was, you know, he knew,
he knew that they were growing. So you know, there
are a great group of guys, and you know, really
I hope we can do them justice by turning around
the finances. Behind the scenes, you know, we've made a
(25:55):
lot of the roads into into getting more sponsorship, sorting
out better business systems, making sure the board is all
aligned with the team, getting direction. Everyone's working really hard.
The most exciting part is you wait till those women
start playing. They're going to show a brand of rugby
(26:18):
out there and the determination to do well that we've
never seen down here before.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
But certainly music to our is here. Rugby directors, big
Hurricanes fans, Malcolm.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Well you know, there are a great team of guys
and I think everyone that's really involved in rugby and
New Zealand Super clubs. I think, you know, if there's
ever been a time when everyone's aligned that something has
to happen. You know, you've got a lot of good
men there. You've got Bill Osborne from the Chiefs, great
(26:56):
great man. He you know, he's pushing. You've got a
lot of good people out there that know that we
have to do something for the betterment of Super Rugby
and New Zealand rugby. And there's no use just being
the person that just complains that I ain't doing what
everyone wants it to do. I think we've just got
to get out there and try and get it sorted out.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, great passion, that's what we want to hear in
the game. Malcolm. Really appreciate your time with us on
Rugby Direct and look forward to catching up again and
maybe once the Hurricanes Men and Women when the titles
he might speak again later in the year.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Yeah, I hope so, I hope. So I won't say
I told you so.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Malcolm Gillies joining myself and Liam on Rugby to reach
Liam some really interesting thoughts from Malcolm Gillies. We recorded
a couple of days ago. We've had a couple of
days to think about what he had to say. Look,
he raised some really interesting and different perspectives, didn't he.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yeah, I think very forthright views and that's what the
game needs right now. I think in large part he's
right that Super Rugby needs to evolve, needs to change.
I don't necessarily think that all of those things that
he put forward are achievable, but you can't knock his passion.
Speaker 6 (28:10):
He's stumping up.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Millions of dollars to prop up the Hurricanes and so
his voice needs to be heard.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Would privatization work is my question?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Like I guess, New Zealand's not a huge economy and
you need probably overseas in vestors. You've seen Bill Foley
with Aukland FC, but he's now taking an interest in
Exeterter Chiefs in the last few days. But is there
enough money around New Zealand Slash the World to come
in and go yep, give me those one of those
five franchises.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Not in a New Zealand's context alone. And I think
Malcolm makes a good point that right now, being a
private investment in Super rugby is not attractive because you
don't have that level of control.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Your players a contractors in New Zealand rugby, you bet
the b his hist of maybe whether they want to
risk players and various other things there. You are a
franchise basically, it's like owning you know, I mc donald's
or whatever. You are reportable to the top office that
have to release a lot of those controls to make
it a legitimate private run competition.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Yeah, and it's not just player contracting, it's also the stadiums.
They're all separate entities in their own right. Malcolm was
talking about having to fight tooth and nail to let
players on the ground and all the changes he's trying
to make. Well, it's the same for most, if not
all other Super rugby teams as well. The Blues they
have to work with Eden Park to change anything. The
(29:39):
Crusaders in the new stadium, they'll have to pay quite
a significant fee from what I'm hearing to go there
with no horses, no horses, they can't do what they want.
Speaker 6 (29:47):
So not only is it with.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
The players and recruitments. Malcolm talked about wanting to recruit
more overseas stars. So you are quite restricted at every turn.
So if you're a wealthy backer there, how much influence
can you have? How attractive is it? How many people
like that are out there too? Sure, but if there
(30:11):
were more, if there was a better avenue for more control,
then maybe it would be more attractive.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Indeed, his point late in the interview about Super Rugby,
if it doesn't change, it'll die, was fairly stark. And look,
as he said, there are people willing to get the
heads around the table, get the bodies on the table,
and try and make some big calls here. But that
was fairly start from an owner or a co owner
of a franchise to go things don't change, this comp
(30:37):
will die.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, And look he is in a more informed position
than many of us in that he has the Hurricanes
box in front of him and.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
Moana the Rebels. They aren't alone. Super Rugby is struggling.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Financially, and that's not isolated in this part of the world.
It is a very prevalent issue throughout professional rugby globally,
perhaps other than the top fourteen where the bank are
backed by hugely wealthy individuals. Not just from a financial perspective,
look at crowds, you know, You can talk the scarcity
(31:13):
of the Warriors selling out Wellington and the Hurricanes getting
thirteen thousand to the Blues, but attracting crowds is an
issue that's not going away. That's directly tied to generating
enough revenue to keep you afloat. So there are massive
issues and whether it is a draft, whether it's eligibility, privatization,
kickoff times. Malcolm mentioned he wants to play at four
(31:36):
o'clock and they are told they can only play at seven.
All these little things can make incremental gains, but there
does need to be changed.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, what was that quote that's done the rounds from
John Flett, the former owner of Sky or CEO of
Sky going in play games in the afternoon. But here's
the difference in the fee between what you get for
that and what you get at seven o'clock at night
in terms of the broadcast. There are reasons I guess
on every turn as to why things can't be done.
But just to wrap up, it is good to hear
an owner of a team or a franchise come out
(32:07):
and go, you know, things do need to change in
the sport, and he's got some ideas and maybe they
won't work some of them, but maybe some of them
can work. It's refreshing to hear some big corse here.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah, I think you've got your head in the sand.
If you think everything's rosy and super rugby, you can't
sit there and say the competition is amazing, we're making bank.
Everything's great. Look, the on field product has been good
and the law tweaks. The entertainment product is right up
there in terms of rugby globally, and the viewership we're
(32:42):
told is good. But things do need to change. They
need to evolve because you're looking at a ten tem
competition next year. There's not that true Jeopardy, and you've
got people like Graham Henry coming out and saying this
competition is not preparing enough athletes to compete on the
world stage. And you'd have to say the competition on
(33:08):
a regular basis is not there, is not at the
level you want it to be.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
So things do need to evolve.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Quick break Malcolm Gillies with us on rugberect will take
a break, come back and get into some more rugby
news after this, you're back with rugby. It's a rigged
power by ns he in Safety, Blackwoods some more Rugby
news during the week. The return of Gilbert and Noke
to the All Black set up his leadership and mental
skills coach doctor James mcgavey, also returning after a couple
of years away. I guess leam your reaction the final
(33:37):
perhaps pieces in the puzzle to Dave Reni's staff.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Perhaps a bit of a surprise, I think, well to
me and most people didn't hear that, didn't know it
was on the table. Gilbert and Oke left a couple
of years ago and went up to Chelsea, but of
a short term stint. They're not too sure about how
that wents. But look at his time in the All
Blacks was largely marked by great success and if you
(34:03):
talk to a number of senior players, they really.
Speaker 6 (34:06):
Valued his inputs.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I probably have some reservations about the modern day player,
the younger guy, and whether that same connection piece is there,
But I think it's a great recruit from Dave Ready,
very savvy. I think he would have listened to player
feedback and taken that on board and gone after anokah,
and he's done well to bring him back in that regard.
So's that's a tick.
Speaker 6 (34:31):
What about you?
Speaker 3 (34:32):
What sort of things do you think Anoka could bring
to the environment that perhaps Kerry Evans didn't.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
Well.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I think he's obviously had some experience away from rugby
in the last eighteen months. As you mentioned, he's been
with Chelsea, he done it with the England cricket team,
done to work with the new South Wales state of
Origin team, experienced some different environments and no doubt would
have taken the lessons of what has and hasn't worked
in those respective fields and probably come back with a
different perspective. I know who He spoke to Darcy Watergrave
(35:00):
earlier in the week and said, you know, time away
has been valuable and you know, just getting away from
rugby and the all Blacks environments and taking stock of that,
so probably comes in with a different appreciation of what
makes some players tick. When he comes back in there'll
be some players that he knows, obviously that you know,
the Cody Taylor's bow and Barrett's of the world, but
there'll be a lot that he doesn't though, and you
(35:20):
know it's going to be a fresh face and a
different face and that'll be challenging in terms of engaging
with that. But he is highly regarded and hearing what
he had to say around the number of ex coaches
that urged him to get back involved. You know, Graham, Henry,
Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen, Joe Schmidty and Foster all basically said,
you know, get in touch. I believe was Wayne Smith
(35:41):
who passes number on to Dave Rennie. Yeah, I think
it's a good appointment for the All Blacks. So we'll
see how it goes.
Speaker 6 (35:48):
Yeah, I watch this space.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Look, it is an incredibly important field, I think, and
having a sounding board between the coaches and the players
is valuable because as much as a head coach develops relationships,
they're still the selector. The buck still stops of them.
They have to create a bit of distance. They can't
be too matey mate. So having someone who is a
(36:11):
bit autonomous, a bit detached, is really valuable. I think
from a players perspective, it'll be up to an Oka
to build that trust with the players that he doesn't.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Know it will be indeed become unstoppable. Read his book
over something very interesting reading on that front. Let's get
into the weekend here and it is of course super
Round in christ Church, the new National Stadium opening up.
We're very excited. I'm looking forward to It's been a
long time in the making as a cantabri in myself.
As if there weren't already enough storylines ahead of this weekend.
Rob Penny comes out and goes right, Lester, fang Onuku,
(36:44):
you're gonna wear the number seven jersey. What was your reaction?
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Yeah, the marketing department of Dunewell to convince Rob to
do that, haven't they?
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Look?
Speaker 3 (36:53):
The Crusaders are clearly down on troops. No Ethan Blackheader
and a number of others there. But I think a
massive surprise, really, Lester. I interviewed him in Perth last
year as he made his comeback for the All Blacks
and he talked about switch from the midfield to the
loose forwards playing for Toulon in France. But I don't
(37:13):
think he ever started at open Soide Flanka to my knowledge, No, no,
So it's a massive shift. I don't think it's a
long term move. I think maybe he has that potential
in him, but it's going to be very interesting to
see how he goes. You think about Andre Esterhesen in
South Africa, Oli Mathis, there are examples around the world
(37:38):
and he's got the frame for it, but it's a
massive change.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
It is a massive change, but I'm intrigued to see
how it goes. Like, if it comes off, then it
just changes everything. But it changes the dynamic of the
Crusaders the rest of the season and what they think
about in terms of the makeup of their team.
Speaker 6 (37:57):
Do you think we'll see it again?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Maybe look for a success and he's pilfering turnovers and
he's making big strides across the park, and his work
at the breakdown it's good, and he's still able to
roam around. Maybe, like, if it's a successful move, why
wouldn't you look at it more often?
Speaker 6 (38:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
I think here word value closer line, he's incredibly difficult
to stop. So from the base, I'm sure he'll be
sniping around there. And my question is really around the
finer details of jackling the breakdown. Does he give away
too many penalties? Does he get his timing right? Is
he going to stay on his feet? Does he get
(38:37):
his hands on the grounds.
Speaker 6 (38:38):
Over the ball?
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Some of those intricacies are really hard to master and
to actually take a long time.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
He won the penalty that got the Crusaders the victory
in twenty twenty three against the Chiefs and Hamilton Jack
with the ball got over the top of it. He
is a good presence at the breakdown. Again, you're gonna
have to do this full time now, it's not you
spot an opportunity when you're playing the Backs. This is
his full time job for this game. So it's gonna
be fascinated to see.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
How it goes.
Speaker 6 (39:01):
I absolutely can't wait.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeap, we'll see the all Blacks implications of that, but
you know, following the steps of armor core him Todd
in terms of we're in that Red and Black Crusaders
number seven pretty special. Who you tipping for that game?
Crusaders were at seven to thirty five, incidentally half an
hour delay to the usual kickoff time.
Speaker 6 (39:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Look, the Crusaders won that comfortably. Some big names coming back,
Cody Taylor, Fletchernewell, a couple of others as well. Still
down on troops to a degree, but surely the Waratars
can't spoil that homecoming party you.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Certainly hope not describe at halftime. Doesn't get much better.
Hurricanes Brumbies five oh five, Saturday afternoon. This is on
neutral territory. The Hurricanes have not traveled that well to
canber in recent times. Do they continue or bounce back
rather from their loss last week?
Speaker 3 (39:50):
I think they do, but I'm expecting this to be
the closest match of the weekend. The Brumbies have gone
really well against New Zealand teams this weekend. As you mentioned,
it's neutral territory. I think the fact that's under a
roof probably suits the Hurricanes. We talked about how they
played too conservatively with the one that back in the
second half last week. I hope they go back to
(40:10):
that more attacking brand of rugby that served them well
this year. So I'm tipping the Canes, but I do
expect it to be a bit squeaky.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah. If the Brumbies hadn't lost last week to the
Drewer in canber It inexplicably, then I might have looked
at the Brumbies potentially, but I think the Hurricanes will
just be too good to just say under the roof
in christ Blues read seven thirty five on Saturday what
is now a traditional and Zach Day fixture between these
two sides. Reds won last year at Suncorp Stadium. The Blues, though,
(40:42):
you know, we're poor against the Hurricanes week prior to last.
We're good for an hour against the Highlanders, then sort
of lost the plot a little bit, interesting game, but
I think the Blues get home.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, I think the Blues and I think they'll do
it comfortably. The Reds down on troops. They are missing
Carter Gordon and one of their other tensins out as
well here Onliner, So yeah, I think the Blues will
go through the middle and maybe be a bit more
expensive as well, with the conditions set to be pristine,
So I think they do it well.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Been Volivo coming off the bench with the Reds and
Jack Debrassini coming off the starting for the Wartars. Some
really interesting selections been volivil E Scrusader of course. Homecoming,
homecoming for the great Man Highlanders. Moana Pacifica on Sunday afternoon.
Interesting old game this Mourana were good for periods of
(41:34):
that game against the war Tars last week. A lot
of emotion around that. Obviously. Can they carry themselves to
a win against the Highlanders.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
It wouldn't be a total shock, but I think the
Highlanders win. They smacked Mowana in Albany earlier this year
when the lights went out late in that game, which
is really bizarre. So I think they get up again.
But yeah, it's a tough old scenario, isn't it. How
long can Moana carry that spirit with the guillotine effectively
(42:06):
hanging over them?
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Oh look, I'm going just to be slightly different because
we took the same so far. I'm going to tip
more on to Pacifica for an upset and the Chiefs
Fijian drew it to wrap up super around full thirty
on Sunday afternoons.
Speaker 6 (42:17):
To be a cracker, won't it.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
And I think high scoring the ball have plenty of
air the Duror coming off their famous win in camera,
but the Chiefs are pretty stacked, so I think they'll
enjoy that trip to christ Church.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah, I think they will as well. I'm going to
go the Chiefs for that one. You incidentally picked three
right last week, Blues, Wartas and Force the Great Force. Yes,
so you're on thirty. I picked one right. It was
a tough It was a tough round, so you got
thirty to twenty six lead in that one. No mail
bag this week, Tim, I am working away at that question.
(42:52):
I'll come back next week with some answers. We'll be
back with the mail by next week, though Rugby directed
at news Talk ZB dot co dot in z to
get in touch and we'll be back with one pod
late next week once super Round has calmed down a
little bit. Maybe on Thursday. It dost settle a little
bit and re group for another podlem.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Yeah, Ristener recover. Looking forward to ripping in and enjoying
everything crushed.
Speaker 6 (43:13):
It has to offer.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
It's very hospitable.
Speaker 6 (43:15):
Give you the red carpet for me.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I've arranged that. I've spoken to the people at christ
Year Report and you just wait when you get off
the plane. We'll be back with another episode as a
CD next week. Thanks to Mark Kelly for producing, and
thanks to Ends in Safety, black Woods, Everything Tradees need.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Sorters for more from News Talks ed B. Listen live
on air or online, and keep our shows with you
wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.