August 5, 2026 • 39 mins
On the latest episode of Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier touch down in Cape Town and waste no time diving into the first team naming of the All Blacks' South African tour.
What can we read into Dave Rennie's selections to face the Stormers on Saturday morning? The boys break down the key talking points, potential selection clues, and what this side could tell us about the weeks ahead as the All Blacks face their latest challenge in one of rugby's toughest environments.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Straight down the Middle Sky Try get inside the game
(00:30):
from every end goal. It's Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith
and Leo LaPier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to Rugby Direct powered by Folklifb Solutions, lifting you
and your business to a higher level. That afternoon on
a Wednesday in Capetown and naps. We've been here for
a couple of days in South Afburica. Good to be
here and settling in very very well. The jet lags
being a bit of a punish but other than that,
(00:58):
enjoying being here.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, it always takes a few days, doesn't it, Elliott,
when you're trove halfway around the world. But great to
be back in South Africa and particularly in Cape Town.
Really really love the city. We had a big day yesterday,
didn't we all blacks on a media day off after
we arrived, So it took you up Lion's Head was
quite the climb. Beautiful day, amazing views, so nice to
(01:24):
should we say, knock the bastard off one of them?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well yeah, I declared just before the top I thought
I had enough runs on the board and left you
boys to it to do the final ascent. You know,
some of us are Edmund Hillary's intending Norgays, and some
of us are not meant to be so. But it
was a great day. Feeling it today, but it was
good to get out and experience a little bit of
Cape Town and in stretch the leagues. All Blacks team
(01:47):
is out for their first tour game against the Stormers.
I guess it's a mix of players that haven't had
many opportunities, not only this year, but you know, prior
to this year, we've seen you players like Blackadder onto
the bench. Here it's in Simon Parker. He's in the
mix this year. Boden Barrett was well telegraphed that he
would be at ten. So I and large win's that
(02:09):
predictable team, but kind of a experimental team, which is
what we're expecting.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
There's no shock and or as the elliott I think, yeah,
I don't know if it's necessarily. Everyone couldn't predict this team,
but it was always going to be a second string outfit.
I think if you cast the heads to next Tuesday
local time, the second game against the Sharks that looms
as the likely shadow test team ten days out from
(02:36):
the opening test. So in that context, there were always
going to be a couple of rookies coming into the mix,
and we see that with Lowaki the Hurricanes prop and
Josh Jacob and then, like you say, those guys who
haven't featured, Kyle Preston another Rikalwhany coming back onto the
left wing. So a number of players getting opportunities. Boden
(02:58):
Barrett will be a bit of a focal figure, won't
At ten Patrick two below two captains the team for
the for the second time in a really strong second
row pair with Fabian Holland playing his first appearance after
our shoulder surgery. Has only had one hit out, So
on the whole, I think it's a strong all Black team.
It's a new all Black team. There'll be a lot
(03:21):
of untested combinations, so they may be a bit rusty,
but there's a lot of points to prove, I think
across the board as well.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And it was interesting
to hear Simon Parker speak to the media before we
arrived and sort of talk about not playing this year
and saying, well, it's not a charity, so I can't
expect it to play, and he was going to turn
up and do your beast when you do get those opportunities,
if you are someone like him, who do you think
has the most to gain? Perhaps out of the run
(03:49):
on team, he'll begin in the most minutes with an
eye head to the bigger matches, the test matches of
this tour.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, I think Faban Holland's coming back into the mix.
He needs game time, doesn't he after a long time out,
So he's one guy that can definitely push into that
test team. Massive human will break through player of the
Year a couple of years back. Was played eighty minutes
a lot for the All Blacks last year. And then
the loose forwards I think are still contestable in some areas.
(04:18):
Ad Severe and Luke Jacobson are pretty well locked in
there and tuper Vira will probably play six. But if
that does happen, then he could have two loose forwards
on the bench, So big chance for Wallace Atituo, who
was pretty underwhelming in his last starts at blindside against Italy,
left out of the team. The following week, Dave Rennie
(04:39):
was very open about the fact that he was dropped
on form, so he comes back in to start at
number eight, probably his preferred position with already not there.
And then Peter Luckey, who I thought was excellent in
the opening Test against France, in a surprise, we didn't
see more of them. He only came off the bench
late against Ireland. So when you throw into on signa
(05:01):
in the mix who's not in this game, I think
those three guys are really contesting possibly two spots on
the bench, so they have lots again. And then and
then a Josh Molby, who you spoke to today, gets
start at fallback. And he's been a big mover, isn't he?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
He has been and we'll hear that interview a bit
later on in the podcast. He has been a big mover.
And I guess we've seen him come off the bench once,
we've seen him play on the left wing once, and
now we're going to see him at fullback. And while
you know Damie McKenzie clearly at this point is the
first choice fallback for the All Blacks, there are a
(05:36):
number of people putting the squeeze on a wing and
you just don't know whether maybe that is an option
potentially down the track. You know. Will Jordan's had time
at fifteen of course as well, but it does add
another option to the All Blacks if that works well.
He's got a good kicking game. Josh Molby playing at
an international level, not this is a test, but this,
(05:58):
you know, it's a little bit different around the requirements
because they've seen him do it at super rugby level.
But I think he's a player that is just making
every post to winners, so intrigued to see what he
can do. Look at the locks as well and go.
It's going to be interesting to see what combination they
land on for the first Test match, because I think
there are a number of quality locks in the mix
(06:18):
of the All Blacks at the moment. Fabian holand coming
back from that shoulder injury. Of course we'll get some
game time. I'd expect a heavy amount of game time
over the next three tour games. Whether that's enough to
put them in the Test side, I'm not entirely sure.
Patrick Typerlaw too is very good at Eaton Park, San
Dowi's had a good couple of opening Test matches as well,
So Josh Lord is yeah, very good and it is
(06:41):
making you know, for a player that's been on the
periphery for a number of years now is right in
that conversation now to be a starting lock. So with
Tupo playing on the blind side, there are any number
of combinations. I guess it's around also scrummaging and Lucy
tight heads sort of scenario. But you know, I think
there are a few things that Dave rene be keeping
(07:04):
on in the second road department when when they see
farbing hold and three to scrumming together and packing down.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, Fabian's the wild card, isn't he Because on the
basis of what we saw Eden Park against Iron, you'd
say Paddy t and Josh Lord will start again. Be
pretty hard to drop them on the basis of that performance.
I think you're right that Fabian will get a lot
of game time and maybe doesn't feature in the first test,
(07:31):
but we'll firmly come into the reckoning beyond that, particularly
just with Tupo probably playing six and you're just having
two locks and and you're looking at too loose forwards
if they do indeed go that way. But look, this
is a this is a four test series as well,
and there will be casualties. Dave Reddie's not going to
(07:53):
be able to play the same team throughout. It's going
to take a huge physical mental toll, and Russy is
certainly going to rotate, and I think the All Blacks
will have to as well. So while the large basis
of that first Test team I think is pretty well
locked in, I think we will see changes throughout that series,
(08:15):
and these performances in these midweek games will firmly put
players in the frame for the First Test and beyond.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, it's very rare that you would see players play
four test weeks in a row ever, outside of maybe
a Rugby World Cup and you know, quarterfinal, semi finals, final,
let alone against the world as their back exactly right.
So I think you know, obviously end of U two,
you play four matches in a row and those can
(08:43):
be tricky as well. But and that's probably the only
time really but playing the same opponent, I think you
do need to vary it up and do need to
bring something there so you know, while you know players
will we experience in quick turnarounds and playing you know,
four tests in a right at the end of the year,
I think this is a different beast in terms of
playing the spring box, so it maybe that they go
(09:05):
and change things around entirely with the Night to Bolton
or whatever it might be. I think it's going to
depend on the fabric of the series and the way
it unfolds as well. Just as to what selections come
into play No. Finanger or four for this game, our
understanding is that he's unavaiable. Selection should be right for
future games in the series, so he will get some
(09:25):
game time. So Caleb Clark on the bench and look
for Caleb Clark as well. I think it's an interesting
position for him to be in because we saw him
come off the bench against Ireland and Eden Park and
perform pretty well in that role, probably slid behind Josh
More we now, you'd have to say on the left
wing stakes. So opportunity in terms of a bench roll
(09:49):
fit for Caleb Clark coming off and showing what he
can do inst the Stormers.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah, I think it's really unfortunate for Fee. He made
his debut off the bench against France and christ Church
only five ten minutes into his shoulder and then has
fallen all the past couple of days since arriving in
South Africa. So as you say, not in contention this week,
so we haven't really seen him, have we in the
Black Jersey, and this would have been an opportunity to assess,
(10:18):
you know, can he make that step up to test rugby,
particularly given his uncertainty around his future. So he doesn't
get that chance. He's gonna have to wait. And Caleb Clark, yeah,
I think he when he has performed that bench role,
he's done it really well and it is a bit
of a luxury in some regards to carry a winger.
But I think when he came on against Island, and
(10:40):
I even remember the last time the All Blacks to
in South Africa, he was coming off the bench and
added some impact there. I'm thinking run. So he certainly
did it at the MCG against the Wallabies on one occasion,
so it's not foreign to him. But he will want
some more game time. And yeah, in terms of the
composition of that back three, Dave really has largely favored
(11:02):
those fallbacks essentially, right.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
What's going back to twenty eleven sort of vibes, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
And you'd have to say, on a small sample size,
your Blacks have made improvements under the high ball, but
they are this is where the rubber meets the road
because the box Are and the Stormers and the Bulls
and Sharks are going to test them in the area
that's part of the South African DNA, and so Josh
(11:30):
will be going back to fullback. He's going to be
peppered there. Same with Riquewani under the high ball. Watts's
capacity after others have improved. So there's gonna be a
real spotlight I think on the back three throughout this
tour and how they handle that. Damian McKenzie is a
small fallback. Did well in July, but this is a
bit of a different beast. So we have seen improvement.
(11:54):
But that needs to continue, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It does, It absolutely does, and I'm intrigued to see
how this game goes, just in terms of setting the
tone for the overall series from the All Blacks, you know,
this has been a tour long in the making, and
I guess you look at it and go, what's the
what's the par level or the you know, the expectations
for this tour. You know, what do we learn from
(12:18):
these tour games? I guess this is another question, So
what are your expectations? I guess in the overall tour
from where we are sitting here on you know, two
days out from the first game, to where we might
end up in Baltimore in a few weeks time.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I think the starting point is this is the All
Blacks and the expectation the bar has to be set high.
I think there's a reality to the fact that Dave
Renie said this team a matter of five weeks ye,
and there's clearly been improvement. I think they're in a
(12:52):
vastly better place already than they were at the back
end of last year if they were coming into this
tour with that same management, with that same cloud hanging
over that team, the same internal ructions that could have
really imploded on this tour. So so I'm a lot
more optimistic. But that word that's a buzzword, isn't it?
(13:14):
But this is there's a reality to it. Look, the
Box have phenomenal depth. They've what have they won is
it four of the last five or five of the
last six against the All Blacks. They've had their number.
They're the world champions. I think they've won their last
ten twelve games. They've swept the Southern Northern Hemisphere teams.
(13:39):
It's an incredibly difficult place to come. I think the
minimum expectation for me, Elliot is one win in South Africa,
one Test win. Anything beyond that I think would be well,
a great successful, a phenomenal achievement.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think we're gonna be realistic. Is that,
you know, only one team's ever come to South Africa
and one a series. That was the nine ninety six group.
And I think it's probably fair to say that had
the All Blacks toured South Africa in the style you know,
at some point between two thousand and ten and twenty twenty,
(14:23):
they would have won probably another series. You know that
they had some big wins here in South Africa, you
would have backed them to win a series proper like
they did in ninety ninety six, but the opportunity wasn't
afforded to them. Now, you know, South Africa of the
dominant force in world rugby, and you've got to go
and go. Okay, well, history tells us that this is
just a hard place to play, whether you're in form
you're not in form, and when you're playing the world
(14:45):
champions and a team that is, you know, as I said,
the dominant force in world rugby, you've got to set
your expectations realistically while also having very high standards. So look,
I think in terms of without just let's discard Baltimore
for a moment, but I think I'm with you that
winning one of these three games, I wouldn't deem it
necessarily as success, but I think that has to be
(15:06):
the minimum for the All Blacks to go. Okay, there's
a step forward there, and then you can view Baltimore
its own, you know, because it's not in South Africa.
So I was probably were about size it on the matter.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, Look, it's this is a relentless toil. You put
the midweek games aside, which you can debate the well
no more won't we in the context of these games,
how much you can take out of them, But you
set them aside the fact that you're playing three back
to back tests in South Africa against the spring Box
(15:42):
the first time in thirty years. It's can to be
relentless and it will take a huge mental physical toll
and the All Blacks are going to have to get
a lot right they yeah, discipline, their scrum, more, high ball.
All these vulnerabilities that we've seen at times are going
to be pressed to the max and there's no place
(16:06):
and we'll rugby quite like South Africa, certainly from a
Alis Park point of view, where you feel quite as
much a foreigner, where you're the hostility. It's just a
magic place. So look, I think there's there's reason to
(16:26):
be optimistic. There's reason to believe that the All Blacks
can certainly win one test. They've really he's got a
great record against South African teams. I can't remember off
the top of my head, but when he was at
the Chiefs, I think he is at three or four
when he was with the Wallabies and that was when
they were world champions and Russy was I think director
(16:46):
of rugby at the time, Jacques Nebinad was coach. But
he knows the South African style well, he knows how
to counter that and I think the All Blacks will
learn a lot in these tour games as well leading
into that. So one one win and then you're on
the board. Look, depending on when that arrives, if they
(17:07):
were to win a series in South Africa, well, look
if they won two games in South Africa, I think
that would probably eclipse the what the ninety sixteen did.
Just given the dominance, as you say of this current
Springbok team.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, when both All World champions at the time, weren't
they and the All Blacks had lost the final the
year prior in South Africa. As there's a different backdrop
to that series as well, you know, professionalism, and it's
very very early stages, so hard to compare the two eras,
but I think it would be a major achievement and
(17:47):
we'll find out over the coming weeks how they get
on and the names that will have no doubt a
big influence on that are the referees appointed for the series.
Four referees controlling the eight games, so each of the
referee gets Each of the referees get a tour match
as well as a test match. Matthew Carley gets the
first one from England, Angus Gardner the second here in
(18:10):
Cape Town, the third matches Nico Amisha Kelly of Georgia
and the fourth match and final game is Carl Dixon
of England, who also opens a series against the Stormers
on Friday nights. So I guess your reaction to those
names do they affix the way the All Blacks will
play or the way the series will be played? You know?
(18:33):
As as we look ahead to this thing.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I think any official does right without no matter who
they are, they will have an impact, positive or negative.
I do like the distinction you made there about the
All Blacks. Will get some experience with these guys in
a tour match. That's important. You'll get up to speed
with their nuancewers. In terms of the appointments are just
(18:58):
broadly speaking, I would have liked to see it too,
and two split Southern Northern Hemisphere and I think look,
nick Berry was always up against it given the historical
context and the vilifying basically of him in terms of
him coming to South Africa again, but maybe he could
have done Baltimore. I think he's hard done by. And
(19:21):
Luke Pess I think should have been in the mix.
I don't particularly rate Carl Dixon. I think he can
lose control of the Test very easily. And Amicelley I'm
not a huge fan of either. I think he's quite pedantic,
doesn't necessarily have a great feel for the game, but
that's that's just my view. So look, they are the appointments.
(19:44):
You've got to get on with it, and there's no
points making a mile out of a mole hole. These
guys that are going to be in the middle and
you're gonna have to adjust.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Ye. Yeah, I would almost like to see the same
referee appointed for each of the four games.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
And what if what if that was Michelley or Dixon, Well, at.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Least you would know what you're walking into. The The
problem with will Rugby and the referee at the moment
is that we have you know, take these four refreez
for example. All four have got different opinions on how
the game should be refereed within the broader rules of
the game. And I think if you have whether it's
an Angus Gardener or whether it's Amisia Kelly, or whether
it's Luke Petz, whoever it might be, at least you
(20:27):
go they've got the nuances. But over a four two
series we can adapt to that, we can use it,
and you know, I think that is almost a better
way of doing things, is that you're just gonna have
one consistent referee, same linesmen, the same rs for that
same TMO, and then they get used to working together.
(20:48):
Now I know there's going to be a lot of
working together with these referees because some are going to
move to assistant referees and some are going to have
the head referee for a certain game and rotate around,
but almost go be better off just pointing Angus Gardener
for four matches and in going he's our ref and
you can see the flip side to that to my
point of view, and go, it's better to have the variety,
better to have different voices every week. But yeah, I
(21:10):
just don't know whether you know, maybe for something like
this you better often just having the same person in
the middle week in week out, you know, for referees,
I'm sure it's a special experiencing part of test matches
and test series like this, so you know, get on
them forgetting the appointments. But yeah, I mean, I think
overall with World Rugby at the moment that the law
(21:31):
book is so bad that they've got to a place
where there's very there are very few referees that have
the feel and nuance to referee a game of rugby
in the modern test stage, with the way that coaches
and players now expect the game to be officiated. It's very,
very hard. But I just don't think that the depth
(21:54):
of zeron World Rugby, So I'd go with one one
referee for the entire series. So something to ponder for
the future for world rugby. Types had news as well
when you landed a captain. You wrote this on inzid
Herald that Georgel his tour is over before it begins
and Bradley Slater called in as replacement for the tour.
(22:15):
So a big blow for George Bell who had been
out with a calf injury for the back end of
Super Rugby and just has seemingly tweaked it again at
training and sounds like his tour is done and done.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Donald done, Donald done.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Unfortunate, isn't it for George Bell because he's had a
well hookers and calfs or props and cuffs go together
like hand in glove. Unfortunately. I guess it's the nature
of putting such weight exerted through scrums and whatnot. But yeah,
really unfortunate for George. I thought he was really good
at times for the Crusaders this season. Bradley Slater probably
(22:53):
a surprise call up. I think it's fair to say
Brody McAllister was in that slot when I suffer Armor
was injured last year. Didn't really know was had some
really ropey performances with his line out throwing. I don't
know if that was on him alone, but that was
(23:14):
certainly very evident in his two appearances off the bench
last year, and so with a change of management and
new Barnes coming in, he knows Bradley stayed a well
from Tartanuki. Longer term, I think someone like eli Odin
Ryan is really the future Jack Taylor at the Highlanders
as well. But yeah, look, it'd be an amazing call,
(23:35):
wouldn't it to get a Bradley winnige in South Africa.
It's a once in a laft on opportunity.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, it is, absolutely Look, I thought the Blues lineout
was a bit ropey at times this year. That's not
all down to the hooker because you look at the
two locks that are in there in Dari and Peep
a lot too, and you know they're playing some great rugby.
So I would have perhaps a couple of question marks
just over that in general. But barring further injuries, he's
probably not going to get it. Too many opportunities, Yeah,
(24:03):
he would have. George Bell would have come off the
bench this week, I'm sure at the Stormers if he
were fit. So they've had to move on Muller in
for that game that may change. They'll obviously give him
an opportunity probably against the Lions. Whether he gets another
one against the Bulls, I'm not sure. So incredible opportunity
for for Bradley Slater to come over and show what
(24:23):
he's got. And you know, I think he's twenty eight now,
so maybe he thought the time he passed him by,
but you know, he made that move from the Chiefs
up to the Blues and it's proven to be a
very very good one for him, So good on him.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah, And I think if you look at these guys
like that are in the you know, not well down
the picking order, but they're not first choice players a
Bradley Slater, Tavia Tavanawa two Po Tay Lower. There's still
a real opportunity to impress on the training field or
(24:56):
with how hard you're working, or on a tour like
this when you're away for four or five weeks, you're
not just being judged on performances, and that's probably what
the fans don't see, right, Like, yeah, they might only
get twenty minutes off the bench and one game perhaps,
but when you're looking at head to a World Cup
and you're plotting your dips Chart and his injuries. You
(25:20):
can very much press your claims on a tour like
this just just being involved.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You certainly can. The All Blacks, obviously in Cape Town
have a big relationship to the city for historical reasons.
They had five thousand fans come through the Great Gates
to DHL Stadium last Friday in in a fan event capacity.
They get healthy support. They're doing and I think a
fan signing the day before the game here in the
(25:47):
city at one of the Mules as well, maybe an
Eddy desk store or something like that. They have been
historically well supported here through the years because of you know,
racial in Sou Africa's background obviously in that and while
it is tilted more towards the South Africans now in
the spring Box, given the way that the South Africans
(26:09):
look now and what they've been able to do on
the field, you know, there is still a healthy smattering
of All Blacks fans in the city that will be
no thatt cheering them on on Friday night here at
at DHL Stadium.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah, that's it's interesting dynamic, isn't it. What do you
call them the Cape Crusaders or there's a there's a generation,
generational legion of fans of fandom that's been passed out
down from grandparents to parents to modern day All Black
fans in Cape Town because of the historical view of
(26:46):
the Springboks being a symbol of apartheid. And like you say,
that has changed dramatically given the composition of the Springbok team,
given Sir Calisi's the first black captain, but that support
is still prevalent here and it also is because of
the style in which the All Blacks play, and that
(27:08):
has a massive pool in terms of attracting fans just
purely from attacking point of view.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I remember and the last time the
All Blacks were here in twenty twenty four, it was
before the game, they had this video on the big
screen and it was a long time All Black supporter
here in the Cape that had switched his allegiances very
late in his life to support in the spring Box
because now what they meant to him. And obviously there
are changes happening in that regard. And they showed this
(27:36):
guy on the big screen after doing a sort of
pre prepared video. He got a round of applause and
things like that. But you know, there is still plenty
of All Blacks Juicys in the stands that day, as
there will be Friday night, as they will be for
the Second Test, so that remains very very strong. One
interesting thing, though, Liam, is that the match is not
going to be a sellout on Friday night as perhaps
(27:57):
maybe we might have expected. Now, there's been some stories
this year around pricing for spring Box games, and maybe
they're overpriced and unable to get enough people through the gates.
I know the test matches are selling very well, but
maybe the tour matches, you know, perhaps have been overpriced.
I'm what sure, but to expect some empty seats in
(28:19):
the stands on Friday night.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Like you say, yeah, this is not the first time
I've seen it. This share with the spring Box. They
struggled to sell out their game against England, which was
their headline Test of July, and they had to drop
the prices significantly to sell out that match at Alice Park.
And yeah, in a tour like this, you run the
(28:45):
risk of saturating a market. What the Second Test, it's
what three weeks after the game against the Stormers, and
the Stormers aren't at full strength, so locals who are
attuned to their rugby are perhaps not willing to play
full price even though it's the All Blacks. So yeah,
(29:05):
I think the South African Roby Union have probably got
their using wrong and are clearly paying for it at
the moment. Remains to be seen whether they dropped their
prices late, but it could well not be a full stadium,
which would be disappoint wouldn't it.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yea, it would be a shame if that is indeed
the case come Friday night. As the way there's looking
at the moment, a couple of interesting things back home,
NPC obviously underway, and news that DUP is doing the
reverse fying a Nuoku as it's non and slotting into
(29:40):
the Wellington back line for the NPC game this weekend
against Auckland at Western Springs Eyebrow raising. What did you
make of it?
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Great venue, Western Springs, home to the Pontsby Ponies.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Oh, I was gonna say I went to a big
day out there. I think the one year Big Dat
was there in Auckland City limits a couple of times.
Maybe lame lame.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Yeah, it's a great music venue but also nosy pony.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Mate, So what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It's just the slogan of Ponsby Rugby. Bet you Williams
to tell you that, I'm sure, yeah, look but rogue,
very rogue. I think from Wellington, and to be honest,
it's a bit of an indictment on the Union that
they don't have another compelling second five option. I know
(30:32):
Riley Haggins is injured and I've clearly got some challenges,
but I know fine and Oku did it. I think
Creas he's a very different player and the forward pack
of Wellington's also going backwards, so he's going to have
a hell of a task. I don't know if he
can throw a long ball. I certainly wouldn't expect him
(30:54):
to kick, so he's just going to be carting it
up and defending and looking to get over the ball.
I had some mates who suggested that maybe the All
Blacks had suggested it. Can categorically rule that out. This
has not come from on high. This is purely smacks
(31:15):
a bit of desperation, honestly, I think from from from Wellington.
But I hope it goes well for him, But I
certainly don't think it will be something that will continue
for the.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Hurricanes or whether Jordi Barrett at twelve.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Or anyone beyond that, so it might be a very
short lived experiment.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah. Look, I'm all for trying players in different positions
and seeing how it goes, but I'm not sure that
you're actually using D's skill set in the right way.
You know, his strength is turnovers as his and you
(31:52):
know you can do that at twelve. We've seen I
do that and be involved there. But Wellington were poor
against Talks Bay on Sunday afternoon. I think it was
New Zealand time, and yeah, I think in occasions like
that you need to back your specialists to deliver the
following week against you know, a decent awcond team who
(32:15):
were pitped by Canterbury. So I look, it's one of
those ones. You go, I'm intrigued. I'm going to tune
in and maybe I watch it live here at four
am on Saturday morning or Sunday morning, whatever it might be.
But I'm intrigued by the idea nonetheless and looking forward
to seeing how it goes. But it just does feel
a little bit weird.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
It's more common, though, isn't it. This whole hybrid concept
We've seen South Africa with Ester Hazen fining anook who
did a great job of it at super rugby level.
Yet to see that tested in the test arena until
he comes back.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
And Andy Jones was a big proponent of it when
he was in England.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
From memory, yeah, I think we can probably get a
bit carried away with it, So I think do PC
as a specialist seven and wash him well and hope
it works out. But I wouldn't expect it to be
a long term thing.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, bit rogue, but you will see how that goes.
Finally gone Rugby direct. As I mentioned earlier in the podcast,
caught up with All Blacks outside back Josh Morby, who
is slotting in at fullback for the side there's week.
Let's hear that chat now, Josh, congratulations on selection for
this week in first and foremost. Have you settled in
(33:28):
to South Africa as a team and personally for you to.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Yes, been It's been a good almost a week now
since we've landed, and yes, as it's been quite warm
their first few days. Today's actually cooled down a little bit,
but that's been great. The reception of the people here
has been awesome and we've just been able to get
straight into our work which has been a really really.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Good opportunity for you at fullback this week. How excited
are you buy by that chance against the Stormers?
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Yes, yeah, pretty exciting all right, there's a bit of
space out there and to work with Bowden. Yes, it's
going to be pretty cool to hopefully nosharing a few
phases together and play some exciting rugby.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
What the things you need to change or adapt as
you move to full back in a sort of international.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
Environment, hopefully not too much. Obviously, there's there's a bit
of a difference between playing on the wing for the
first my first two tests and then moving back now.
But yeah, I'm just really excited to work and you know,
just learn a bit more about about fullback and then
obviously we help out my wingers and then my role
as well if I happen to go back to the
(34:33):
wing a.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Bit more kicking potentially as well, although it was seeing
you know, maybe a variation in the attack, but obviously
at full back you're expected to kick a bit more. Yeah, yeah,
was seen.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I mean it be good if I can get us
out of travel, if we're you know, right down in
our end goal. So yes, it's going to be good.
It's going to be a pretty cool atmosphere and yeah,
looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
What are the things that you've learned, I guess so
far in your time in the All Blacks environment about
about what it takes to be an international rugby player.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
I've just got to be so prepared and so well
detailed and your prep for the week. And I mean
everyone around around you is just so good at what
they do, and I think that's the the beauty of it.
You just have to worry about your role and getting
that right and everyone else does their perfectly, so it's
not so well awored machine. And it's just awesome, so
awesome to be a part of how.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
It's special to be on a tour like this because
they don't really exist anymore, and that's been well publicized.
But to be in camp together for six seven weeks
and you know, playing in the same country, what do
you feel like that as a modern rugby plague going
back to these old school.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Tours, Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Before we left, we had
the ninety sixteen, you know sixteen come through and to
share a few stories about obviously their tour and what
it was like for them then and what it could
be like for us now, and yeah, we're we're extremely
lucky to be in this group and to tour so Africa.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
It's just such a.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Well, a lot of history between the two countries. And yeah,
I'm just really looking forward to these seven weeks. I mean,
like you say, it's not every day it comes around,
so Ye're just enjoying every day. And yeah, really looking
forward to to these next seven weeks.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
The Stormers, obviously we don't have an idea really of
maybe many of their players currently. What do you expect
from them? I guess in the style perspective, What are
we are you working on in camp that you might
expect come a Friday night.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Yeah, I think they're going to throw everything at us
the first test or first game for this tour. And
I mean I've got nothing to lose it that would
just be throwing everything at us. And yeah, we're going
to be prepared for everything. And yeah, just really looking
forward to to playing some rugby.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
How have your accommodation at ten and fifteen with but
Boden worked in training so far this week? And then
do you feel ready to slot into that game on Friday? Run?
Speaker 4 (36:43):
And yeah, I feel like we've worked pretty well together. Obviously,
this will be the first time we've we've linked up,
and yeah, I'm just really looking forward to it. I mean,
he's so so good at at what he does, so yeah,
I'll just be following him around and just following his lead.
So yeah, I'm actually really excited for this opportunity South Africa.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
This was your first time, he didn't go over when
you're playing in a one.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Yeah, my first time here with the Super Rugby and
with obviously the Challenge Cup. So yes, it's a cape
town's beautiful. Yeah, really enjoying this part of the world
the night.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yes, the ninety six boys but also the guys I
guess in camp that played a bit of Super rugby
here and have played tests before, is it. Do you
get a little bit of insight from them as to
help and what to expect over the coming weeks.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yeah, yeah, a few obviously, there's quite a few of
the boys that have played here before and have been
in the previous test where they've gone both ways, and oh,
you know, just letting you know that, you know, you
just got to expect everything. That's just such a such
a tough place to come and play rugby. So you've
just got to be very well prepared.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Just a couple of fine ones. Soon you play on
the left wing a little bit as well as as
right and obviously fall back this week. Do you have
a preference or you quite comfortable on either side of
the part playing when.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Ah, I'd like to sound uncomfortable. I think that's the
answer that you're level. Yeah, obviously they're both differently, you know,
left hand being right hand. So it's it's it's quite good.
It's I guess it's adding more more strings to my
bow or you know, and yeah, I'm just hopefully developing
more as a player to learn both sides. And then
(38:16):
obviously it fallback to help service I guess the wingers
and what they want from their fifteen.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
And just finally a cool moment for your family last
couple of weeks with Tory winning a middle of the
Comonworth Games, I've been pretty exciting for you and the fam.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Yeah, it is, it's yes, extremely cool. I mean she's
worked very very hard for this, and yeah, just so
so proud of her and what she's been able to Accomplishyah.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Plenty of interesting stuff there from Josh Morby. Didn't realize
that Tory Moreby was his sister in lawso congrats to
her on her Commonwealth Games success in the last couple
of weeks, and good to hear from Josh Morby as well.
Big occasion for him on Friday night local time Saturday
morning in New Zealand. Liam very much looking forward to
getting this too underway and getting some rugby on the board.
(39:01):
Should be pretty special come Friday night.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Absolutely, I can't wait. Beautiful stadium on the Cape town
or front. Haven't been there myself, so yeah, I can't
wait to get in there and get the tour started.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Absolutely look forward to that. We'll be back in your
podcast feed probably a day or so after the game
as we look ahead to the Sharks game coming up
in Durmam. We'll chat to you from Durban though. Thanks
to Mark Kelly for producing. We are powered by Forklift Solutions,
lifting you and your business to a higher level.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
For more from News Talk st B, listen live on
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You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
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Straight down the Middle Sky Try get inside the game
(00:30):
from every end goal. It's Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith
and Leo LaPier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to Rugby Direct powered by Folklifb Solutions, lifting you
and your business to a higher level. That afternoon on
a Wednesday in Capetown and naps. We've been here for
a couple of days in South Afburica. Good to be
here and settling in very very well. The jet lags
being a bit of a punish but other than that,
(00:58):
enjoying being here.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, it always takes a few days, doesn't it, Elliott,
when you're trove halfway around the world. But great to
be back in South Africa and particularly in Cape Town.
Really really love the city. We had a big day yesterday,
didn't we all blacks on a media day off after
we arrived, So it took you up Lion's Head was
quite the climb. Beautiful day, amazing views, so nice to
(01:24):
should we say, knock the bastard off one of them?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well yeah, I declared just before the top I thought
I had enough runs on the board and left you
boys to it to do the final ascent. You know,
some of us are Edmund Hillary's intending Norgays, and some
of us are not meant to be so. But it
was a great day. Feeling it today, but it was
good to get out and experience a little bit of
Cape Town and in stretch the leagues. All Blacks team
(01:47):
is out for their first tour game against the Stormers.
I guess it's a mix of players that haven't had
many opportunities, not only this year, but you know, prior
to this year, we've seen you players like Blackadder onto
the bench. Here it's in Simon Parker. He's in the
mix this year. Boden Barrett was well telegraphed that he
would be at ten. So I and large win's that
(02:09):
predictable team, but kind of a experimental team, which is
what we're expecting.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
There's no shock and or as the elliott I think, yeah,
I don't know if it's necessarily. Everyone couldn't predict this team,
but it was always going to be a second string outfit.
I think if you cast the heads to next Tuesday
local time, the second game against the Sharks that looms
as the likely shadow test team ten days out from
(02:36):
the opening test. So in that context, there were always
going to be a couple of rookies coming into the mix,
and we see that with Lowaki the Hurricanes prop and
Josh Jacob and then, like you say, those guys who
haven't featured, Kyle Preston another Rikalwhany coming back onto the
left wing. So a number of players getting opportunities. Boden
(02:58):
Barrett will be a bit of a focal figure, won't
At ten Patrick two below two captains the team for
the for the second time in a really strong second
row pair with Fabian Holland playing his first appearance after
our shoulder surgery. Has only had one hit out, So
on the whole, I think it's a strong all Black team.
It's a new all Black team. There'll be a lot
(03:21):
of untested combinations, so they may be a bit rusty,
but there's a lot of points to prove, I think
across the board as well.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And it was interesting
to hear Simon Parker speak to the media before we
arrived and sort of talk about not playing this year
and saying, well, it's not a charity, so I can't
expect it to play, and he was going to turn
up and do your beast when you do get those opportunities,
if you are someone like him, who do you think
has the most to gain? Perhaps out of the run
(03:49):
on team, he'll begin in the most minutes with an
eye head to the bigger matches, the test matches of
this tour.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, I think Faban Holland's coming back into the mix.
He needs game time, doesn't he after a long time out,
So he's one guy that can definitely push into that
test team. Massive human will break through player of the
Year a couple of years back. Was played eighty minutes
a lot for the All Blacks last year. And then
the loose forwards I think are still contestable in some areas.
(04:18):
Ad Severe and Luke Jacobson are pretty well locked in
there and tuper Vira will probably play six. But if
that does happen, then he could have two loose forwards
on the bench, So big chance for Wallace Atituo, who
was pretty underwhelming in his last starts at blindside against Italy,
left out of the team. The following week, Dave Rennie
(04:39):
was very open about the fact that he was dropped
on form, so he comes back in to start at
number eight, probably his preferred position with already not there.
And then Peter Luckey, who I thought was excellent in
the opening Test against France, in a surprise, we didn't
see more of them. He only came off the bench
late against Ireland. So when you throw into on signa
(05:01):
in the mix who's not in this game, I think
those three guys are really contesting possibly two spots on
the bench, so they have lots again. And then and
then a Josh Molby, who you spoke to today, gets
start at fallback. And he's been a big mover, isn't he?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
He has been and we'll hear that interview a bit
later on in the podcast. He has been a big mover.
And I guess we've seen him come off the bench once,
we've seen him play on the left wing once, and
now we're going to see him at fullback. And while
you know Damie McKenzie clearly at this point is the
first choice fallback for the All Blacks, there are a
(05:36):
number of people putting the squeeze on a wing and
you just don't know whether maybe that is an option
potentially down the track. You know. Will Jordan's had time
at fifteen of course as well, but it does add
another option to the All Blacks if that works well.
He's got a good kicking game. Josh Molby playing at
an international level, not this is a test, but this,
(05:58):
you know, it's a little bit different around the requirements
because they've seen him do it at super rugby level.
But I think he's a player that is just making
every post to winners, so intrigued to see what he
can do. Look at the locks as well and go.
It's going to be interesting to see what combination they
land on for the first Test match, because I think
there are a number of quality locks in the mix
(06:18):
of the All Blacks at the moment. Fabian holand coming
back from that shoulder injury. Of course we'll get some
game time. I'd expect a heavy amount of game time
over the next three tour games. Whether that's enough to
put them in the Test side, I'm not entirely sure.
Patrick Typerlaw too is very good at Eaton Park, San
Dowi's had a good couple of opening Test matches as well,
So Josh Lord is yeah, very good and it is
(06:41):
making you know, for a player that's been on the
periphery for a number of years now is right in
that conversation now to be a starting lock. So with
Tupo playing on the blind side, there are any number
of combinations. I guess it's around also scrummaging and Lucy
tight heads sort of scenario. But you know, I think
there are a few things that Dave rene be keeping
(07:04):
on in the second road department when when they see
farbing hold and three to scrumming together and packing down.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, Fabian's the wild card, isn't he Because on the
basis of what we saw Eden Park against Iron, you'd
say Paddy t and Josh Lord will start again. Be
pretty hard to drop them on the basis of that performance.
I think you're right that Fabian will get a lot
of game time and maybe doesn't feature in the first test,
(07:31):
but we'll firmly come into the reckoning beyond that, particularly
just with Tupo probably playing six and you're just having
two locks and and you're looking at too loose forwards
if they do indeed go that way. But look, this
is a this is a four test series as well,
and there will be casualties. Dave Reddie's not going to
(07:53):
be able to play the same team throughout. It's going
to take a huge physical mental toll, and Russy is
certainly going to rotate, and I think the All Blacks
will have to as well. So while the large basis
of that first Test team I think is pretty well
locked in, I think we will see changes throughout that series,
(08:15):
and these performances in these midweek games will firmly put
players in the frame for the First Test and beyond.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, it's very rare that you would see players play
four test weeks in a row ever, outside of maybe
a Rugby World Cup and you know, quarterfinal, semi finals, final,
let alone against the world as their back exactly right.
So I think you know, obviously end of U two,
you play four matches in a row and those can
(08:43):
be tricky as well. But and that's probably the only
time really but playing the same opponent, I think you
do need to vary it up and do need to
bring something there so you know, while you know players
will we experience in quick turnarounds and playing you know,
four tests in a right at the end of the year,
I think this is a different beast in terms of
playing the spring box, so it maybe that they go
(09:05):
and change things around entirely with the Night to Bolton
or whatever it might be. I think it's going to
depend on the fabric of the series and the way
it unfolds as well. Just as to what selections come
into play No. Finanger or four for this game, our
understanding is that he's unavaiable. Selection should be right for
future games in the series, so he will get some
(09:25):
game time. So Caleb Clark on the bench and look
for Caleb Clark as well. I think it's an interesting
position for him to be in because we saw him
come off the bench against Ireland and Eden Park and
perform pretty well in that role, probably slid behind Josh
More we now, you'd have to say on the left
wing stakes. So opportunity in terms of a bench roll
(09:49):
fit for Caleb Clark coming off and showing what he
can do inst the Stormers.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah, I think it's really unfortunate for Fee. He made
his debut off the bench against France and christ Church
only five ten minutes into his shoulder and then has
fallen all the past couple of days since arriving in
South Africa. So as you say, not in contention this week,
so we haven't really seen him, have we in the
Black Jersey, and this would have been an opportunity to assess,
(10:18):
you know, can he make that step up to test rugby,
particularly given his uncertainty around his future. So he doesn't
get that chance. He's gonna have to wait. And Caleb Clark, yeah,
I think he when he has performed that bench role,
he's done it really well and it is a bit
of a luxury in some regards to carry a winger.
But I think when he came on against Island, and
(10:40):
I even remember the last time the All Blacks to
in South Africa, he was coming off the bench and
added some impact there. I'm thinking run. So he certainly
did it at the MCG against the Wallabies on one occasion,
so it's not foreign to him. But he will want
some more game time. And yeah, in terms of the
composition of that back three, Dave really has largely favored
(11:02):
those fallbacks essentially, right.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
What's going back to twenty eleven sort of vibes, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
And you'd have to say, on a small sample size,
your Blacks have made improvements under the high ball, but
they are this is where the rubber meets the road
because the box Are and the Stormers and the Bulls
and Sharks are going to test them in the area
that's part of the South African DNA, and so Josh
(11:30):
will be going back to fullback. He's going to be
peppered there. Same with Riquewani under the high ball. Watts's
capacity after others have improved. So there's gonna be a
real spotlight I think on the back three throughout this
tour and how they handle that. Damian McKenzie is a
small fallback. Did well in July, but this is a
bit of a different beast. So we have seen improvement.
(11:54):
But that needs to continue, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It does, It absolutely does, and I'm intrigued to see
how this game goes, just in terms of setting the
tone for the overall series from the All Blacks, you know,
this has been a tour long in the making, and
I guess you look at it and go, what's the
what's the par level or the you know, the expectations
for this tour. You know, what do we learn from
(12:18):
these tour games? I guess this is another question, So
what are your expectations? I guess in the overall tour
from where we are sitting here on you know, two
days out from the first game, to where we might
end up in Baltimore in a few weeks time.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I think the starting point is this is the All
Blacks and the expectation the bar has to be set high.
I think there's a reality to the fact that Dave
Renie said this team a matter of five weeks ye,
and there's clearly been improvement. I think they're in a
(12:52):
vastly better place already than they were at the back
end of last year if they were coming into this
tour with that same management, with that same cloud hanging
over that team, the same internal ructions that could have
really imploded on this tour. So so I'm a lot
more optimistic. But that word that's a buzzword, isn't it?
(13:14):
But this is there's a reality to it. Look, the
Box have phenomenal depth. They've what have they won is
it four of the last five or five of the
last six against the All Blacks. They've had their number.
They're the world champions. I think they've won their last
ten twelve games. They've swept the Southern Northern Hemisphere teams.
(13:39):
It's an incredibly difficult place to come. I think the
minimum expectation for me, Elliot is one win in South Africa,
one Test win. Anything beyond that I think would be well,
a great successful, a phenomenal achievement.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think we're gonna be realistic. Is that,
you know, only one team's ever come to South Africa
and one a series. That was the nine ninety six group.
And I think it's probably fair to say that had
the All Blacks toured South Africa in the style you know,
at some point between two thousand and ten and twenty twenty,
(14:23):
they would have won probably another series. You know that
they had some big wins here in South Africa, you
would have backed them to win a series proper like
they did in ninety ninety six, but the opportunity wasn't
afforded to them. Now, you know, South Africa of the
dominant force in world rugby, and you've got to go
and go. Okay, well, history tells us that this is
just a hard place to play, whether you're in form
you're not in form, and when you're playing the world
(14:45):
champions and a team that is, you know, as I said,
the dominant force in world rugby, you've got to set
your expectations realistically while also having very high standards. So look,
I think in terms of without just let's discard Baltimore
for a moment, but I think I'm with you that
winning one of these three games, I wouldn't deem it
necessarily as success, but I think that has to be
(15:06):
the minimum for the All Blacks to go. Okay, there's
a step forward there, and then you can view Baltimore
its own, you know, because it's not in South Africa.
So I was probably were about size it on the matter.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, Look, it's this is a relentless toil. You put
the midweek games aside, which you can debate the well
no more won't we in the context of these games,
how much you can take out of them, But you
set them aside the fact that you're playing three back
to back tests in South Africa against the spring Box
(15:42):
the first time in thirty years. It's can to be
relentless and it will take a huge mental physical toll
and the All Blacks are going to have to get
a lot right they yeah, discipline, their scrum, more, high ball.
All these vulnerabilities that we've seen at times are going
to be pressed to the max and there's no place
(16:06):
and we'll rugby quite like South Africa, certainly from a
Alis Park point of view, where you feel quite as
much a foreigner, where you're the hostility. It's just a
magic place. So look, I think there's there's reason to
(16:26):
be optimistic. There's reason to believe that the All Blacks
can certainly win one test. They've really he's got a
great record against South African teams. I can't remember off
the top of my head, but when he was at
the Chiefs, I think he is at three or four
when he was with the Wallabies and that was when
they were world champions and Russy was I think director
(16:46):
of rugby at the time, Jacques Nebinad was coach. But
he knows the South African style well, he knows how
to counter that and I think the All Blacks will
learn a lot in these tour games as well leading
into that. So one one win and then you're on
the board. Look, depending on when that arrives, if they
(17:07):
were to win a series in South Africa, well, look
if they won two games in South Africa, I think
that would probably eclipse the what the ninety sixteen did.
Just given the dominance, as you say of this current
Springbok team.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, when both All World champions at the time, weren't
they and the All Blacks had lost the final the
year prior in South Africa. As there's a different backdrop
to that series as well, you know, professionalism, and it's
very very early stages, so hard to compare the two eras,
but I think it would be a major achievement and
(17:47):
we'll find out over the coming weeks how they get
on and the names that will have no doubt a
big influence on that are the referees appointed for the series.
Four referees controlling the eight games, so each of the
referee gets Each of the referees get a tour match
as well as a test match. Matthew Carley gets the
first one from England, Angus Gardner the second here in
(18:10):
Cape Town, the third matches Nico Amisha Kelly of Georgia
and the fourth match and final game is Carl Dixon
of England, who also opens a series against the Stormers
on Friday nights. So I guess your reaction to those
names do they affix the way the All Blacks will
play or the way the series will be played? You know?
(18:33):
As as we look ahead to this thing.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I think any official does right without no matter who
they are, they will have an impact, positive or negative.
I do like the distinction you made there about the
All Blacks. Will get some experience with these guys in
a tour match. That's important. You'll get up to speed
with their nuancewers. In terms of the appointments are just
(18:58):
broadly speaking, I would have liked to see it too,
and two split Southern Northern Hemisphere and I think look,
nick Berry was always up against it given the historical
context and the vilifying basically of him in terms of
him coming to South Africa again, but maybe he could
have done Baltimore. I think he's hard done by. And
(19:21):
Luke Pess I think should have been in the mix.
I don't particularly rate Carl Dixon. I think he can
lose control of the Test very easily. And Amicelley I'm
not a huge fan of either. I think he's quite pedantic,
doesn't necessarily have a great feel for the game, but
that's that's just my view. So look, they are the appointments.
(19:44):
You've got to get on with it, and there's no
points making a mile out of a mole hole. These
guys that are going to be in the middle and
you're gonna have to adjust.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Ye. Yeah, I would almost like to see the same
referee appointed for each of the four games.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
And what if what if that was Michelley or Dixon, Well, at.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Least you would know what you're walking into. The The
problem with will Rugby and the referee at the moment
is that we have you know, take these four refreez
for example. All four have got different opinions on how
the game should be refereed within the broader rules of
the game. And I think if you have whether it's
an Angus Gardener or whether it's Amisia Kelly, or whether
it's Luke Petz, whoever it might be, at least you
(20:27):
go they've got the nuances. But over a four two
series we can adapt to that, we can use it,
and you know, I think that is almost a better
way of doing things, is that you're just gonna have
one consistent referee, same linesmen, the same rs for that
same TMO, and then they get used to working together.
(20:48):
Now I know there's going to be a lot of
working together with these referees because some are going to
move to assistant referees and some are going to have
the head referee for a certain game and rotate around,
but almost go be better off just pointing Angus Gardener
for four matches and in going he's our ref and
you can see the flip side to that to my
point of view, and go, it's better to have the variety,
better to have different voices every week. But yeah, I
(21:10):
just don't know whether you know, maybe for something like
this you better often just having the same person in
the middle week in week out, you know, for referees,
I'm sure it's a special experiencing part of test matches
and test series like this, so you know, get on
them forgetting the appointments. But yeah, I mean, I think
overall with World Rugby at the moment that the law
(21:31):
book is so bad that they've got to a place
where there's very there are very few referees that have
the feel and nuance to referee a game of rugby
in the modern test stage, with the way that coaches
and players now expect the game to be officiated. It's very,
very hard. But I just don't think that the depth
(21:54):
of zeron World Rugby, So I'd go with one one
referee for the entire series. So something to ponder for
the future for world rugby. Types had news as well
when you landed a captain. You wrote this on inzid
Herald that Georgel his tour is over before it begins
and Bradley Slater called in as replacement for the tour.
(22:15):
So a big blow for George Bell who had been
out with a calf injury for the back end of
Super Rugby and just has seemingly tweaked it again at
training and sounds like his tour is done and done.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Donald done, Donald done.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Unfortunate, isn't it for George Bell because he's had a
well hookers and calfs or props and cuffs go together
like hand in glove. Unfortunately. I guess it's the nature
of putting such weight exerted through scrums and whatnot. But yeah,
really unfortunate for George. I thought he was really good
at times for the Crusaders this season. Bradley Slater probably
(22:53):
a surprise call up. I think it's fair to say
Brody McAllister was in that slot when I suffer Armor
was injured last year. Didn't really know was had some
really ropey performances with his line out throwing. I don't
know if that was on him alone, but that was
(23:14):
certainly very evident in his two appearances off the bench
last year, and so with a change of management and
new Barnes coming in, he knows Bradley stayed a well
from Tartanuki. Longer term, I think someone like eli Odin
Ryan is really the future Jack Taylor at the Highlanders
as well. But yeah, look, it'd be an amazing call,
(23:35):
wouldn't it to get a Bradley winnige in South Africa.
It's a once in a laft on opportunity.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, it is, absolutely Look, I thought the Blues lineout
was a bit ropey at times this year. That's not
all down to the hooker because you look at the
two locks that are in there in Dari and Peep
a lot too, and you know they're playing some great rugby.
So I would have perhaps a couple of question marks
just over that in general. But barring further injuries, he's
probably not going to get it. Too many opportunities, Yeah,
(24:03):
he would have. George Bell would have come off the
bench this week, I'm sure at the Stormers if he
were fit. So they've had to move on Muller in
for that game that may change. They'll obviously give him
an opportunity probably against the Lions. Whether he gets another
one against the Bulls, I'm not sure. So incredible opportunity
for for Bradley Slater to come over and show what
(24:23):
he's got. And you know, I think he's twenty eight now,
so maybe he thought the time he passed him by,
but you know, he made that move from the Chiefs
up to the Blues and it's proven to be a
very very good one for him, So good on him.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah, And I think if you look at these guys
like that are in the you know, not well down
the picking order, but they're not first choice players a
Bradley Slater, Tavia Tavanawa two Po Tay Lower. There's still
a real opportunity to impress on the training field or
(24:56):
with how hard you're working, or on a tour like
this when you're away for four or five weeks, you're
not just being judged on performances, and that's probably what
the fans don't see, right, Like, yeah, they might only
get twenty minutes off the bench and one game perhaps,
but when you're looking at head to a World Cup
and you're plotting your dips Chart and his injuries. You
(25:20):
can very much press your claims on a tour like
this just just being involved.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You certainly can. The All Blacks, obviously in Cape Town
have a big relationship to the city for historical reasons.
They had five thousand fans come through the Great Gates
to DHL Stadium last Friday in in a fan event capacity.
They get healthy support. They're doing and I think a
fan signing the day before the game here in the
(25:47):
city at one of the Mules as well, maybe an
Eddy desk store or something like that. They have been
historically well supported here through the years because of you know,
racial in Sou Africa's background obviously in that and while
it is tilted more towards the South Africans now in
the spring Box, given the way that the South Africans
(26:09):
look now and what they've been able to do on
the field, you know, there is still a healthy smattering
of All Blacks fans in the city that will be
no thatt cheering them on on Friday night here at
at DHL Stadium.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah, that's it's interesting dynamic, isn't it. What do you
call them the Cape Crusaders or there's a there's a generation,
generational legion of fans of fandom that's been passed out
down from grandparents to parents to modern day All Black
fans in Cape Town because of the historical view of
(26:46):
the Springboks being a symbol of apartheid. And like you say,
that has changed dramatically given the composition of the Springbok team,
given Sir Calisi's the first black captain, but that support
is still prevalent here and it also is because of
the style in which the All Blacks play, and that
(27:08):
has a massive pool in terms of attracting fans just
purely from attacking point of view.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I remember and the last time the
All Blacks were here in twenty twenty four, it was
before the game, they had this video on the big
screen and it was a long time All Black supporter
here in the Cape that had switched his allegiances very
late in his life to support in the spring Box
because now what they meant to him. And obviously there
are changes happening in that regard. And they showed this
(27:36):
guy on the big screen after doing a sort of
pre prepared video. He got a round of applause and
things like that. But you know, there is still plenty
of All Blacks Juicys in the stands that day, as
there will be Friday night, as they will be for
the Second Test, so that remains very very strong. One
interesting thing, though, Liam, is that the match is not
going to be a sellout on Friday night as perhaps
(27:57):
maybe we might have expected. Now, there's been some stories
this year around pricing for spring Box games, and maybe
they're overpriced and unable to get enough people through the gates.
I know the test matches are selling very well, but
maybe the tour matches, you know, perhaps have been overpriced.
I'm what sure, but to expect some empty seats in
(28:19):
the stands on Friday night.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Like you say, yeah, this is not the first time
I've seen it. This share with the spring Box. They
struggled to sell out their game against England, which was
their headline Test of July, and they had to drop
the prices significantly to sell out that match at Alice Park.
And yeah, in a tour like this, you run the
(28:45):
risk of saturating a market. What the Second Test, it's
what three weeks after the game against the Stormers, and
the Stormers aren't at full strength, so locals who are
attuned to their rugby are perhaps not willing to play
full price even though it's the All Blacks. So yeah,
(29:05):
I think the South African Roby Union have probably got
their using wrong and are clearly paying for it at
the moment. Remains to be seen whether they dropped their
prices late, but it could well not be a full stadium,
which would be disappoint wouldn't it.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yea, it would be a shame if that is indeed
the case come Friday night. As the way there's looking
at the moment, a couple of interesting things back home,
NPC obviously underway, and news that DUP is doing the
reverse fying a Nuoku as it's non and slotting into
(29:40):
the Wellington back line for the NPC game this weekend
against Auckland at Western Springs Eyebrow raising. What did you
make of it?
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Great venue, Western Springs, home to the Pontsby Ponies.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Oh, I was gonna say I went to a big
day out there. I think the one year Big Dat
was there in Auckland City limits a couple of times.
Maybe lame lame.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Yeah, it's a great music venue but also nosy pony.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Mate, So what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It's just the slogan of Ponsby Rugby. Bet you Williams
to tell you that, I'm sure, yeah, look but rogue,
very rogue. I think from Wellington, and to be honest,
it's a bit of an indictment on the Union that
they don't have another compelling second five option. I know
(30:32):
Riley Haggins is injured and I've clearly got some challenges,
but I know fine and Oku did it. I think
Creas he's a very different player and the forward pack
of Wellington's also going backwards, so he's going to have
a hell of a task. I don't know if he
can throw a long ball. I certainly wouldn't expect him
(30:54):
to kick, so he's just going to be carting it
up and defending and looking to get over the ball.
I had some mates who suggested that maybe the All
Blacks had suggested it. Can categorically rule that out. This
has not come from on high. This is purely smacks
(31:15):
a bit of desperation, honestly, I think from from from Wellington.
But I hope it goes well for him, But I
certainly don't think it will be something that will continue
for the.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Hurricanes or whether Jordi Barrett at twelve.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Or anyone beyond that, so it might be a very
short lived experiment.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah. Look, I'm all for trying players in different positions
and seeing how it goes, but I'm not sure that
you're actually using D's skill set in the right way.
You know, his strength is turnovers as his and you
(31:52):
know you can do that at twelve. We've seen I
do that and be involved there. But Wellington were poor
against Talks Bay on Sunday afternoon. I think it was
New Zealand time, and yeah, I think in occasions like
that you need to back your specialists to deliver the
following week against you know, a decent awcond team who
(32:15):
were pitped by Canterbury. So I look, it's one of
those ones. You go, I'm intrigued. I'm going to tune
in and maybe I watch it live here at four
am on Saturday morning or Sunday morning, whatever it might be.
But I'm intrigued by the idea nonetheless and looking forward
to seeing how it goes. But it just does feel
a little bit weird.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
It's more common, though, isn't it. This whole hybrid concept
We've seen South Africa with Ester Hazen fining anook who
did a great job of it at super rugby level.
Yet to see that tested in the test arena until
he comes back.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
And Andy Jones was a big proponent of it when
he was in England.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
From memory, yeah, I think we can probably get a
bit carried away with it, So I think do PC
as a specialist seven and wash him well and hope
it works out. But I wouldn't expect it to be
a long term thing.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, bit rogue, but you will see how that goes.
Finally gone Rugby direct. As I mentioned earlier in the podcast,
caught up with All Blacks outside back Josh Morby, who
is slotting in at fullback for the side there's week.
Let's hear that chat now, Josh, congratulations on selection for
this week in first and foremost. Have you settled in
(33:28):
to South Africa as a team and personally for you to.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Yes, been It's been a good almost a week now
since we've landed, and yes, as it's been quite warm
their first few days. Today's actually cooled down a little bit,
but that's been great. The reception of the people here
has been awesome and we've just been able to get
straight into our work which has been a really really.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Good opportunity for you at fullback this week. How excited
are you buy by that chance against the Stormers?
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Yes, yeah, pretty exciting all right, there's a bit of
space out there and to work with Bowden. Yes, it's
going to be pretty cool to hopefully nosharing a few
phases together and play some exciting rugby.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
What the things you need to change or adapt as
you move to full back in a sort of international.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
Environment, hopefully not too much. Obviously, there's there's a bit
of a difference between playing on the wing for the
first my first two tests and then moving back now.
But yeah, I'm just really excited to work and you know,
just learn a bit more about about fullback and then
obviously we help out my wingers and then my role
as well if I happen to go back to the
(34:33):
wing a.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Bit more kicking potentially as well, although it was seeing
you know, maybe a variation in the attack, but obviously
at full back you're expected to kick a bit more. Yeah, yeah,
was seen.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I mean it be good if I can get us
out of travel, if we're you know, right down in
our end goal. So yes, it's going to be good.
It's going to be a pretty cool atmosphere and yeah,
looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
What are the things that you've learned, I guess so
far in your time in the All Blacks environment about
about what it takes to be an international rugby player.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
I've just got to be so prepared and so well
detailed and your prep for the week. And I mean
everyone around around you is just so good at what
they do, and I think that's the the beauty of it.
You just have to worry about your role and getting
that right and everyone else does their perfectly, so it's
not so well awored machine. And it's just awesome, so
awesome to be a part of how.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
It's special to be on a tour like this because
they don't really exist anymore, and that's been well publicized.
But to be in camp together for six seven weeks
and you know, playing in the same country, what do
you feel like that as a modern rugby plague going
back to these old school.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Tours, Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Before we left, we had
the ninety sixteen, you know sixteen come through and to
share a few stories about obviously their tour and what
it was like for them then and what it could
be like for us now, and yeah, we're we're extremely
lucky to be in this group and to tour so Africa.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
It's just such a.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Well, a lot of history between the two countries. And yeah,
I'm just really looking forward to these seven weeks. I mean,
like you say, it's not every day it comes around,
so Ye're just enjoying every day. And yeah, really looking
forward to to these next seven weeks.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
The Stormers, obviously we don't have an idea really of
maybe many of their players currently. What do you expect
from them? I guess in the style perspective, What are
we are you working on in camp that you might
expect come a Friday night.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Yeah, I think they're going to throw everything at us
the first test or first game for this tour. And
I mean I've got nothing to lose it that would
just be throwing everything at us. And yeah, we're going
to be prepared for everything. And yeah, just really looking
forward to to playing some rugby.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
How have your accommodation at ten and fifteen with but
Boden worked in training so far this week? And then
do you feel ready to slot into that game on Friday? Run?
Speaker 4 (36:43):
And yeah, I feel like we've worked pretty well together. Obviously,
this will be the first time we've we've linked up,
and yeah, I'm just really looking forward to it. I mean,
he's so so good at at what he does, so yeah,
I'll just be following him around and just following his lead.
So yeah, I'm actually really excited for this opportunity South Africa.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
This was your first time, he didn't go over when
you're playing in a one.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Yeah, my first time here with the Super Rugby and
with obviously the Challenge Cup. So yes, it's a cape
town's beautiful. Yeah, really enjoying this part of the world
the night.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yes, the ninety six boys but also the guys I
guess in camp that played a bit of Super rugby
here and have played tests before, is it. Do you
get a little bit of insight from them as to
help and what to expect over the coming weeks.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yeah, yeah, a few obviously, there's quite a few of
the boys that have played here before and have been
in the previous test where they've gone both ways, and oh,
you know, just letting you know that, you know, you
just got to expect everything. That's just such a such
a tough place to come and play rugby. So you've
just got to be very well prepared.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Just a couple of fine ones. Soon you play on
the left wing a little bit as well as as
right and obviously fall back this week. Do you have
a preference or you quite comfortable on either side of
the part playing when.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Ah, I'd like to sound uncomfortable. I think that's the
answer that you're level. Yeah, obviously they're both differently, you know,
left hand being right hand. So it's it's it's quite good.
It's I guess it's adding more more strings to my
bow or you know, and yeah, I'm just hopefully developing
more as a player to learn both sides. And then
(38:16):
obviously it fallback to help service I guess the wingers
and what they want from their fifteen.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
And just finally a cool moment for your family last
couple of weeks with Tory winning a middle of the
Comonworth Games, I've been pretty exciting for you and the fam.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Yeah, it is, it's yes, extremely cool. I mean she's
worked very very hard for this, and yeah, just so
so proud of her and what she's been able to Accomplishyah.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Plenty of interesting stuff there from Josh Morby. Didn't realize
that Tory Moreby was his sister in lawso congrats to
her on her Commonwealth Games success in the last couple
of weeks, and good to hear from Josh Morby as well.
Big occasion for him on Friday night local time Saturday
morning in New Zealand. Liam very much looking forward to
getting this too underway and getting some rugby on the board.
(39:01):
Should be pretty special come Friday night.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Absolutely, I can't wait. Beautiful stadium on the Cape town
or front. Haven't been there myself, so yeah, I can't
wait to get in there and get the tour started.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Absolutely look forward to that. We'll be back in your
podcast feed probably a day or so after the game
as we look ahead to the Sharks game coming up
in Durmam. We'll chat to you from Durban though. Thanks
to Mark Kelly for producing. We are powered by Forklift Solutions,
lifting you and your business to a higher level.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
For more from News Talk st B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
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