September 10, 2026 • 19 mins
On the latest episode of Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith dials in from Baltimore as the All Blacks unveil their side for the fourth and final test of The Greatest Rivalry tour.
Richie Mo'unga returns to the No. 10 jersey, while Codie Taylor captains the All Blacks in a test for the first time.
Is this the combination that can level the series against South Africa and ensure New Zealand leaves with a share of the trophy?
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZB. Follow this
and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeart Radio.
Strike down the middle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Drop it down and score.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
There's your bonus point.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Try.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
He's pumped.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Try. Game over. Get inside the game from every angle.
It's Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier. Powered
by Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions, elevating you
and your business to a higher level. Elliot Smith, and
not with me, Liam Napier. Yes, as we mentioned on
the last podcast out of Johannesburg, Liam didn't come to
the United States, left me and my herald colleague Gregor
(00:58):
Paul to it, and we'll hear from Gregor in a
moment or two. Got Gregor's thoughts on the All Blacks
team that has been named for this fourth Test match
here in Baltimore. I only arrived into Baltimore, now I'm
recording this at 10.30am on Friday morning New Zealand time,
half past six on a Thursday evening here. I only
got in today, had a look around the city briefly.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Look, there is.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Not much of a feel that this test match is
obviously going on. But you look at M & T
Bank Stadium and there's a lot of signage around there.
I spoke to my Uber driver earlier in the day
who was well aware that the rugby match was on
this weekend. I think there's probably a sense from people
that live in and around the city that there is
a rugby match on. But obviously the Ravens starting the
(01:45):
NFL season this weekend against the Indianapolis Colts away from home.
that'll take much of the attention for the city, and
that tends to be the case in these big American cities.
So a bit of work for World Rugby to do
as they count down to 2031 and the Men's Rugby
World Cup that will take place here. Obviously, the All
Blacks team name, they need to win to draw the
(02:07):
series against the Springboks. It's been a weird week because
they've gone from being full noise intensity around the series
to definitely having the gears being taken off this week
just with the lack of attention that it's garnered both
in Washington DC and now in Baltimore but make no
mistake this is still an All Blacks and Springboks test
(02:28):
and the All Blacks are absolutely desperate to win this
match and finish the series at 2-2 they don't want
to draw sorry lose the series and make that three
losses in a row to the old foe so plenty
on the line between these two sides on Sunday morning
New Zealand time later kickoff as well A couple of
(02:50):
things around the team that I'll tell you before we
play the chat with Gregor. A bit of sickness around
the team this week. We spoke with Dave Rennie an
hour or so ago before I recorded this, and he
said that they had a fair bit of gastro coming
off the plane from South Africa. Fabian Holland has been
ruled out through sickness. He said if it was early
in the week, they would have actually struggled to put
together a team, so maybe Gregor or myself might have
(03:12):
actually got a game for the All Blacks. But fortunately,
it sounds like everyone that they wanted to select on
the ground, apart from Holland, was fit and ready to go.
Big storyline is obviously Richie Mwonga starting at 10. His
first test start since the 2023 World Cup final. Dave
Rennie stressing very much at the media conference today that
(03:33):
they've been happy with Ruben Love. That's the reason they
started him in the biggest game that Rennie termed since
the 23 World Cup final, but they also need to
grow some depth and have a look at other options
like Richie Mwonga. So That's the reason behind that change.
We've got Blackadder at open side flanker. I think that's
fairly self-explanatory in terms of it being a like-for-like replacement
(03:55):
for Luke Jacobson, or as close to one as you
could find. And Cody Taylor, the captain of this All
Blacks team this week with the absence of Artie Sarvia,
and I guess Luke Jacobson as well, who would have
been perhaps odds-on to captain this team should he be fit,
but obviously he's had to head home.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Due to injury.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Otherwise, in the back line, look, Anton Leonard-Brown comes in
at centre, Josh Morby comes into the starting left wing berth,
and on the bench, Rico Iwani and Bodum Barrett cover
the backs, and Asafa Amor dropping back to the bench.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
This week as well.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
All righty, Rugby Direct, let's catch up with New Zealand
Herald rugby columnist Gregor Paul on Rugby Direct to get
his thoughts on this All Blacks side.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier. Powered by
Newstalk ZB. Hear every All Blacks game live and free
on air and on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Well, Gregor, a much-changed All Blacks team for this weekend.
Has Dave Rooney made the right calls, do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I think we knew there were going to be changes, Elliot.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
He talked all tour about probably using up to about
30 players across the series. We saw a few changes
last week. Some were injury-enforced. Some were about refreshing the team. Again,
pretty similar this week. Some are injury-enforced and some are
about refreshing the team. It's pretty hard to go four
tests in a row. I know that the South Africans
(05:21):
are doing that with a few of their senior players.
One or two All Blacks are doing that. But I
think the team will clearly, with no Xavier, no Luke Jacobson, no,
help me, Quinn Tapia, three senior players to lose. We're
going to see three changes there. I think it was
almost likely Richie Mwanga was going to get a start.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
He's been brought back for a reason. and Ruben Love.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
He's had all the game time so far so I
think that was pretty obvious Rico Ioane he's been sharp
on tour Ethan Blackadder comes in for Luke Jacobson I
think Ethan Blackadder is Luke Jacobson 2.0 similar player tough
rugged so wears the number 7 jersey Paddy Piloto surprised
me a wee bit because he seemed to have gone
(06:04):
off him a wee bit on the tour but again
I think they might want a heavyweight ball carrier to
punch up the middle of the field and And the
change at tight head, I think, reflects maybe the scrummaging
form that Fletcher Newell's shown when he's come on.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Let's zero in on Richie Maunga, because that's probably the
headline selection, I guess, for many people. Reuben Love has
started every test match to this point so far this year,
but now they've made a little bit of a change.
Does this signal they're not happy with Reuben Love, or
do they want to expand their options? For me, I
think they want to expand and go, we can't just
go with one first five to next year's World Cup.
(06:38):
And as it stands, Biden Barrett's seen more as a fullback,
and so too Damian McKenzie.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I think you've kind of answered your own question
there to an extent. Next question.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
No, look, I think there's a little bit of everything
in there. They'll be very happy with Ruben Laff. He's
a young player. He has never started a test match
at number 10 until the beginning of this year. In fact,
he hasn't played a huge amount of first-class rugby at
number 10 because the Hurricanes had him at fullback. So
I think he's been brilliant for his experience. He struggled
(07:10):
a wee bit maybe in Cape Town, he struggled a
wee bit maybe in Soweto, but that's line speed, that's pressure,
that's a lot of things going against the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
He didn't goal kick all that well in Soweto.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
He's a guy that has put on the record he
wants to be the best player in the world.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
He will have learned a huge amount.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
All season but particularly in South Africa he would have
learned a huge amount I think they'll be really happy
with him but look they need to develop options we
know that guys get injured particularly at number 10 Mwanga
has come home they've paid him to come home you
know they've lured him back this was always going to
happen they were always going to have to manufacture an
opportunity to put him in the team this one seems
(07:52):
about right love is probably due a little bit of
a break So no, what it does mean is that
that jersey is competitive again. There'll be an expectation that,
you know, Moana's out there to say, hey, you've got
the young buck playing, but look at me.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I can play. Put me in the team.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
We've seen Bowdoin Barrett named on the bench this week.
That hasn't been traditionally sort of a specialist playmaker. We
haven't seen Dave Rennie do that in a game so
far this year. What do you think that signals? Is
it a case of, well, maybe Moana's not up to
playing 80 minutes of test rugby yet?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
No, I think, again, it's probably....
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Barrett covers full-back, he covers 10, he's got 144 test caps.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
This is a huge game.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
I mean, we could play around with the narrative as
much as you like and say, well, you know, it's
here in America, the.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Series is over. But it's not over.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
As much as traditionalists like myself, and I think you,
don't really like the fact that they've got this game.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Tacked on, we have to get over that fact.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Because it is here, it is a fourth game, and
it does mean that New Zealand have got the opportunity
to level things up.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And above all else, I don't really want to lose
three in a row.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
And there's a lot of sort of psychological damage that
can be done here. So, look, Bowden, I think, is
in there because he's... He's had a tough old season,
but he's starting to come right.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
And he's a player that they can put in a fullback.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
If they're not happy with Mwanga, they can put Borden
in at 10. But maybe things are tight in the
final 20 minutes. And look, Barrett's shown he can be
a game changer off the bench. It's how he started
his career. It's how he kind of re-impressed... In 2024,
when Scott Robertson clearly wasn't sure about him and he
fired his way back in to be a starting player again,
(09:28):
a lot of people have their doubts about Boden. I
understand that. He's 35. He didn't have a great blue season.
I haven't got any doubts about him. I don't think,
but like Dan Carter in a similar situation in 2014, 2015, that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
The guy can play. He knows what he's doing.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
And I think a big occasion coming off the bench,
I'd be very surprised if he doesn't make a really
impactful contribution.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
The midfield's interesting to me. Anton Leonard-Brown at centre, replacing
Quinn Tapia. Now, Anton, I think, is a really good
replacement off the bench, and people have questioned that, what
he's doing coming off the bench, but I think he's
a good two-IC to Geordie Barrett or Quinn Tapia, but
I don't know if you can have both of them together,
and I would have rather.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
gone with Enrico.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Ioane for that punch in the middle of the park,
but we heard Dave Rooney say last week that Anton's
a better defensive player. Are they zeroing in on that reason,
do you think, by starting him this week?
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Well, it sounded like it last week when Dave Rooney
gave quite a detailed and critical... answer about because the
question was actually about Rico Ioane rather than Anton Leonard-Brown
and he kind of managed to put a few put
downs in there which is obviously what they're talking to
Rico about behind the scenes clearly they wouldn't say it
to us if they weren't saying it to him so
(10:41):
yeah probably they feel that work like Dave Rennie loves
work rate he clearly has a relationship with Anton they
played at Cobby with him did they overlap at the
Chiefs or did Dave go.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah they did yeah they did so yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
There's look sometimes coaches have a relationship with a player
they know that guy better than than the other ones
so they they lean into that but they've obviously measured
Anton's work great they like the way he jumps onto
his feet Rico Ioane to me he look he's slimmed
down he's about four kilos lighter he looks quick again
he's impressed on that element like when he's had the
(11:16):
ball he's looked like his old self but I haven't
watched him in the same detail or tracked him in
the way that the all blacks have to say well
actually you know he's not covering the ground defensively I
mean I've always felt that Rico was a massively improved
defender as a center as he as he played in
that position after 2019 to the point where by the
(11:37):
World Cup he felt like he was one of the
best so I'm a wee bit surprised that David said
Anton's the better defender maybe that's to do with work
rate I don't know I think A lot of criticism
about Rico, how he used the ball last year and
the year before, but there was never any criticism about
his defence, but maybe we're not, maybe we know nothing
about the game, Elliot.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Maybe we're not watching the right things.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
It's quite possible. Cody Taylor is captain. Interesting selection, although
not really surprising. Geordie Barrett, probably the other option, but
I think they like a Ford to be captain, but
he wasn't selected last week. They went with Armour, who
I thought played really well. Now they've gone back to
Cody Taylor. Is that solid because of the captaincy, do
you think?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
No, I don't think so. I think.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
If you look at Cody, he'd been injured prior to
coming on tour. He wasn't fit enough to play until
the Bulls game, which was a Saturday before the first test.
So he played in that game and then he played
two test matches. So in essence, he'd played three in
a row coming back from injury. And he battled a
wee bit in Cape Town. Physically, some of his accuracy
(12:42):
was a wee bit off. So I think they said, well,
you need a week off. But it's hard when you
come back from injury to keep stacking the games back
to back to back. So I think that's what that
was about. I didn't read it as a changing of
the guard at that point. I mean, Oumuamua is the
man that everyone is looking at right now. He's a
little ball of muscle. He's just a cannon that you
(13:05):
can fire at the opposition and he can sort of
splatter them around a wee bit. Why not throwing a
wee bit to be worked on? So look, Almo is
a crowd pleaser, but he's a bit more.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Than that as well.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
He's pushing really, really hard on Cody, but I think
Cody's the guy that you're going to keep in the
squad through the World Cup, and Almo's the guy that's
going to put a lot of pressure on him, and
you're going to have them start and swap off the bench,
and you can play around with that, which.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I'm sure they'll do for the remainder of the season.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
This game is, as you said before, quite weird in
many regards. It feels like it's gone under the radar
this week. even from our own sort of being in
a different city to where the game is, moved countries
to the United States, all that sort of thing. But
can the All Blacks turn around the last couple of
weeks and get a serious draw out of this, do
you think?
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, look, I think they can. Excuse me, to their point,
their own.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
sense that they're exceptionally close to the spring box I
don't doubt that, I don't dispute it in any way,
I think it's fair for them to say the first
test actually could have gone, I think South Africa walk
away from that one going cheaper as we were one
scrum away from winning that one, but again you look
at two and three and you can make arguments to
(14:20):
say New Zealand are one play, whatever it might be
one kick-off caught in Soweto and it's a different game
or different outcomes So, look, I think that we're here.
I feel a bit of the air has come out
of the thing because we've been in South Africa. We
were in South Africa for a long time. It felt
like the Obelix were clearly chasing two wins over there.
(14:43):
And I don't think they would go, hey, we've won
the series. But they would have a mini celebration at
that point because it would have been a series within
a series. But they'd be pretty motivated to win. I
think they're taking the whole four-test thing seriously. But, yeah, look,
I think they've got to show that they've learned something.
how they beat South Africa because they've manipulated them they've
(15:04):
scored 13 tries they've shown they can get round the
outside of them they haven't gone through the middle of
them too much but they've got to improve their scrum
whatever I don't care who's cheating who's not cheating outcome
has to be better for New Zealand because you cannot
have an All Black pack going backwards at the rate
of knots that they were for that penalty try you
can't have a rolling wall start outside the 22 and
(15:26):
end up under the posts in a try when you're the.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
All Blacks that's That's not okay. You can't have that.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
So all the talk about, oh, well, this was happening
and that was happening, that just needs to be fixed,
and that can't happen again.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And if they can do that and.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Hold or withstand the physicality that South Africa are producing,
then I think they've shown they're better at using the
ball than South Africa. 13 tries to Mike Blair, we're
talking about that. You and I were talking to Mike
Blair about that. It's a wee celebration for them. They
can't say, hey, we scored 13 tries, but we didn't
(16:00):
win the series. But it is an indication that they
can attack, that they understand their attack game, and it
is working. 13 against South Africa, that is a lot,
because they typically only give away one or two max
in a game.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Just finally, obviously, as you said, in Baltimore, I don't
think either of us are huge fans of the tacked-on
fourth game. We were at the Baltimore Ravens facility, got
lucky enough to have a tour of that earlier today.
Funnily enough, my Uber driver did know this match was on,
so any questions around that regard? But it's hard to
get a sense. You've gone from being in the pressure
cooker leading up to the test series of all the
(16:38):
tour games in South Africa, and to your point before
about the air coming out of the series a little bit,
you go from it being... everywhere you look to being
nowhere essentially you look, I don't think that's actually healthy
for the series as a concept, even if you are
managing to cash in a little bit.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
No, I don't think it's healthy for the series. I
think it's going to be, they've sold it out, so
that's fine. But I think I would imagine that the
vast majority of tickets are being sold to expat South
Africans and Kiwis and the USA Rugby fraternity that would love,
you know, they're loving the fact that these big games
are getting played here like we would go to an
NFL game if it was played in Auckland type thing.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So, yeah, I don't love it for the series.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
You know, we're actually sitting here about five metres away
from New Zealand Rugby Chief Exec Steve Lancaster.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I had a chat with him yesterday.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
I sort of asked him these questions and he, you know,
he got a bit sprightly in return about, no, no, look,
it's a whole new group of people that get to
come to watch the very important for us to be
here we're spreading the gospel we're taking RGR and showing
how good this rivalry is to whole new markets so
yeah you can make all these all these stories and
yeah look they are making a lot of money by
(17:47):
the way seven million dollars it's the most each yeah
yeah each team it's the most lucrative game New Zealand
uh the All Blacks have ever played one off um
I mean, if you're going to sell your soul, I
suppose sell it for something, you know, that's top dollar.
But again, I just wonder if all that, you know,
you can, you can always make, you can't use money,
(18:10):
making money as an argument to trump everything else because
then you become a drug dealer almost because you can
make any argument you like to.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Say, I don't think that's a healthy proposition. But, you know,
but here might be a great game and we might
feel differently at the end.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
So Gregor Paul there joining us on Rugby Direct. As
I said, a bit of a different Rugby Direct for
you this week. We'll check our diaries, hopefully catch up
with Liam to wrap up the series at some point
over the next wee while once he's back in New
Zealand and once we are back in New Zealand as well.
We'll have an update for you on that in the
next wee while. But in the meantime, the All Blacks
(18:48):
looking to draw the series against South Africa. 9am on
Sunday morning. You can catch it live on Newstalk Z.
Be able to afford your company. Then Thanks to Mark
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Speaker 1 (19:05):
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And keep our shows with you wherever you go, with
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You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZB. Follow this
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Strike down the middle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Drop it down and score.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
There's your bonus point.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Try.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
He's pumped.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Try. Game over. Get inside the game from every angle.
It's Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier. Powered
by Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions, elevating you
and your business to a higher level. Elliot Smith, and
not with me, Liam Napier. Yes, as we mentioned on
the last podcast out of Johannesburg, Liam didn't come to
the United States, left me and my herald colleague Gregor
(00:58):
Paul to it, and we'll hear from Gregor in a
moment or two. Got Gregor's thoughts on the All Blacks
team that has been named for this fourth Test match
here in Baltimore. I only arrived into Baltimore, now I'm
recording this at 10.30am on Friday morning New Zealand time,
half past six on a Thursday evening here. I only
got in today, had a look around the city briefly.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Look, there is.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Not much of a feel that this test match is
obviously going on. But you look at M & T
Bank Stadium and there's a lot of signage around there.
I spoke to my Uber driver earlier in the day
who was well aware that the rugby match was on
this weekend. I think there's probably a sense from people
that live in and around the city that there is
a rugby match on. But obviously the Ravens starting the
(01:45):
NFL season this weekend against the Indianapolis Colts away from home.
that'll take much of the attention for the city, and
that tends to be the case in these big American cities.
So a bit of work for World Rugby to do
as they count down to 2031 and the Men's Rugby
World Cup that will take place here. Obviously, the All
Blacks team name, they need to win to draw the
(02:07):
series against the Springboks. It's been a weird week because
they've gone from being full noise intensity around the series
to definitely having the gears being taken off this week
just with the lack of attention that it's garnered both
in Washington DC and now in Baltimore but make no
mistake this is still an All Blacks and Springboks test
(02:28):
and the All Blacks are absolutely desperate to win this
match and finish the series at 2-2 they don't want
to draw sorry lose the series and make that three
losses in a row to the old foe so plenty
on the line between these two sides on Sunday morning
New Zealand time later kickoff as well A couple of
(02:50):
things around the team that I'll tell you before we
play the chat with Gregor. A bit of sickness around
the team this week. We spoke with Dave Rennie an
hour or so ago before I recorded this, and he
said that they had a fair bit of gastro coming
off the plane from South Africa. Fabian Holland has been
ruled out through sickness. He said if it was early
in the week, they would have actually struggled to put
together a team, so maybe Gregor or myself might have
(03:12):
actually got a game for the All Blacks. But fortunately,
it sounds like everyone that they wanted to select on
the ground, apart from Holland, was fit and ready to go.
Big storyline is obviously Richie Mwonga starting at 10. His
first test start since the 2023 World Cup final. Dave
Rennie stressing very much at the media conference today that
(03:33):
they've been happy with Ruben Love. That's the reason they
started him in the biggest game that Rennie termed since
the 23 World Cup final, but they also need to
grow some depth and have a look at other options
like Richie Mwonga. So That's the reason behind that change.
We've got Blackadder at open side flanker. I think that's
fairly self-explanatory in terms of it being a like-for-like replacement
(03:55):
for Luke Jacobson, or as close to one as you
could find. And Cody Taylor, the captain of this All
Blacks team this week with the absence of Artie Sarvia,
and I guess Luke Jacobson as well, who would have
been perhaps odds-on to captain this team should he be fit,
but obviously he's had to head home.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Due to injury.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Otherwise, in the back line, look, Anton Leonard-Brown comes in
at centre, Josh Morby comes into the starting left wing berth,
and on the bench, Rico Iwani and Bodum Barrett cover
the backs, and Asafa Amor dropping back to the bench.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
This week as well.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
All righty, Rugby Direct, let's catch up with New Zealand
Herald rugby columnist Gregor Paul on Rugby Direct to get
his thoughts on this All Blacks side.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier. Powered by
Newstalk ZB. Hear every All Blacks game live and free
on air and on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Well, Gregor, a much-changed All Blacks team for this weekend.
Has Dave Rooney made the right calls, do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I think we knew there were going to be changes, Elliot.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
He talked all tour about probably using up to about
30 players across the series. We saw a few changes
last week. Some were injury-enforced. Some were about refreshing the team. Again,
pretty similar this week. Some are injury-enforced and some are
about refreshing the team. It's pretty hard to go four
tests in a row. I know that the South Africans
(05:21):
are doing that with a few of their senior players.
One or two All Blacks are doing that. But I
think the team will clearly, with no Xavier, no Luke Jacobson, no,
help me, Quinn Tapia, three senior players to lose. We're
going to see three changes there. I think it was
almost likely Richie Mwanga was going to get a start.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
He's been brought back for a reason. and Ruben Love.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
He's had all the game time so far so I
think that was pretty obvious Rico Ioane he's been sharp
on tour Ethan Blackadder comes in for Luke Jacobson I
think Ethan Blackadder is Luke Jacobson 2.0 similar player tough
rugged so wears the number 7 jersey Paddy Piloto surprised
me a wee bit because he seemed to have gone
(06:04):
off him a wee bit on the tour but again
I think they might want a heavyweight ball carrier to
punch up the middle of the field and And the
change at tight head, I think, reflects maybe the scrummaging
form that Fletcher Newell's shown when he's come on.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Let's zero in on Richie Maunga, because that's probably the
headline selection, I guess, for many people. Reuben Love has
started every test match to this point so far this year,
but now they've made a little bit of a change.
Does this signal they're not happy with Reuben Love, or
do they want to expand their options? For me, I
think they want to expand and go, we can't just
go with one first five to next year's World Cup.
(06:38):
And as it stands, Biden Barrett's seen more as a fullback,
and so too Damian McKenzie.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I think you've kind of answered your own question
there to an extent. Next question.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
No, look, I think there's a little bit of everything
in there. They'll be very happy with Ruben Laff. He's
a young player. He has never started a test match
at number 10 until the beginning of this year. In fact,
he hasn't played a huge amount of first-class rugby at
number 10 because the Hurricanes had him at fullback. So
I think he's been brilliant for his experience. He struggled
(07:10):
a wee bit maybe in Cape Town, he struggled a
wee bit maybe in Soweto, but that's line speed, that's pressure,
that's a lot of things going against the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
He didn't goal kick all that well in Soweto.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
He's a guy that has put on the record he
wants to be the best player in the world.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
He will have learned a huge amount.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
All season but particularly in South Africa he would have
learned a huge amount I think they'll be really happy
with him but look they need to develop options we
know that guys get injured particularly at number 10 Mwanga
has come home they've paid him to come home you
know they've lured him back this was always going to
happen they were always going to have to manufacture an
opportunity to put him in the team this one seems
(07:52):
about right love is probably due a little bit of
a break So no, what it does mean is that
that jersey is competitive again. There'll be an expectation that,
you know, Moana's out there to say, hey, you've got
the young buck playing, but look at me.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I can play. Put me in the team.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
We've seen Bowdoin Barrett named on the bench this week.
That hasn't been traditionally sort of a specialist playmaker. We
haven't seen Dave Rennie do that in a game so
far this year. What do you think that signals? Is
it a case of, well, maybe Moana's not up to
playing 80 minutes of test rugby yet?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
No, I think, again, it's probably....
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Barrett covers full-back, he covers 10, he's got 144 test caps.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
This is a huge game.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
I mean, we could play around with the narrative as
much as you like and say, well, you know, it's
here in America, the.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Series is over. But it's not over.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
As much as traditionalists like myself, and I think you,
don't really like the fact that they've got this game.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Tacked on, we have to get over that fact.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Because it is here, it is a fourth game, and
it does mean that New Zealand have got the opportunity
to level things up.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And above all else, I don't really want to lose
three in a row.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
And there's a lot of sort of psychological damage that
can be done here. So, look, Bowden, I think, is
in there because he's... He's had a tough old season,
but he's starting to come right.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
And he's a player that they can put in a fullback.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
If they're not happy with Mwanga, they can put Borden
in at 10. But maybe things are tight in the
final 20 minutes. And look, Barrett's shown he can be
a game changer off the bench. It's how he started
his career. It's how he kind of re-impressed... In 2024,
when Scott Robertson clearly wasn't sure about him and he
fired his way back in to be a starting player again,
(09:28):
a lot of people have their doubts about Boden. I
understand that. He's 35. He didn't have a great blue season.
I haven't got any doubts about him. I don't think,
but like Dan Carter in a similar situation in 2014, 2015, that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
The guy can play. He knows what he's doing.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
And I think a big occasion coming off the bench,
I'd be very surprised if he doesn't make a really
impactful contribution.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
The midfield's interesting to me. Anton Leonard-Brown at centre, replacing
Quinn Tapia. Now, Anton, I think, is a really good
replacement off the bench, and people have questioned that, what
he's doing coming off the bench, but I think he's
a good two-IC to Geordie Barrett or Quinn Tapia, but
I don't know if you can have both of them together,
and I would have rather.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
gone with Enrico.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Ioane for that punch in the middle of the park,
but we heard Dave Rooney say last week that Anton's
a better defensive player. Are they zeroing in on that reason,
do you think, by starting him this week?
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Well, it sounded like it last week when Dave Rooney
gave quite a detailed and critical... answer about because the
question was actually about Rico Ioane rather than Anton Leonard-Brown
and he kind of managed to put a few put
downs in there which is obviously what they're talking to
Rico about behind the scenes clearly they wouldn't say it
to us if they weren't saying it to him so
(10:41):
yeah probably they feel that work like Dave Rennie loves
work rate he clearly has a relationship with Anton they
played at Cobby with him did they overlap at the
Chiefs or did Dave go.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah they did yeah they did so yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
There's look sometimes coaches have a relationship with a player
they know that guy better than than the other ones
so they they lean into that but they've obviously measured
Anton's work great they like the way he jumps onto
his feet Rico Ioane to me he look he's slimmed
down he's about four kilos lighter he looks quick again
he's impressed on that element like when he's had the
(11:16):
ball he's looked like his old self but I haven't
watched him in the same detail or tracked him in
the way that the all blacks have to say well
actually you know he's not covering the ground defensively I
mean I've always felt that Rico was a massively improved
defender as a center as he as he played in
that position after 2019 to the point where by the
(11:37):
World Cup he felt like he was one of the
best so I'm a wee bit surprised that David said
Anton's the better defender maybe that's to do with work
rate I don't know I think A lot of criticism
about Rico, how he used the ball last year and
the year before, but there was never any criticism about
his defence, but maybe we're not, maybe we know nothing
about the game, Elliot.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Maybe we're not watching the right things.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
It's quite possible. Cody Taylor is captain. Interesting selection, although
not really surprising. Geordie Barrett, probably the other option, but
I think they like a Ford to be captain, but
he wasn't selected last week. They went with Armour, who
I thought played really well. Now they've gone back to
Cody Taylor. Is that solid because of the captaincy, do
you think?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
No, I don't think so. I think.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
If you look at Cody, he'd been injured prior to
coming on tour. He wasn't fit enough to play until
the Bulls game, which was a Saturday before the first test.
So he played in that game and then he played
two test matches. So in essence, he'd played three in
a row coming back from injury. And he battled a
wee bit in Cape Town. Physically, some of his accuracy
(12:42):
was a wee bit off. So I think they said, well,
you need a week off. But it's hard when you
come back from injury to keep stacking the games back
to back to back. So I think that's what that
was about. I didn't read it as a changing of
the guard at that point. I mean, Oumuamua is the
man that everyone is looking at right now. He's a
little ball of muscle. He's just a cannon that you
(13:05):
can fire at the opposition and he can sort of
splatter them around a wee bit. Why not throwing a
wee bit to be worked on? So look, Almo is
a crowd pleaser, but he's a bit more.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Than that as well.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
He's pushing really, really hard on Cody, but I think
Cody's the guy that you're going to keep in the
squad through the World Cup, and Almo's the guy that's
going to put a lot of pressure on him, and
you're going to have them start and swap off the bench,
and you can play around with that, which.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I'm sure they'll do for the remainder of the season.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
This game is, as you said before, quite weird in
many regards. It feels like it's gone under the radar
this week. even from our own sort of being in
a different city to where the game is, moved countries
to the United States, all that sort of thing. But
can the All Blacks turn around the last couple of
weeks and get a serious draw out of this, do
you think?
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, look, I think they can. Excuse me, to their point,
their own.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
sense that they're exceptionally close to the spring box I
don't doubt that, I don't dispute it in any way,
I think it's fair for them to say the first
test actually could have gone, I think South Africa walk
away from that one going cheaper as we were one
scrum away from winning that one, but again you look
at two and three and you can make arguments to
(14:20):
say New Zealand are one play, whatever it might be
one kick-off caught in Soweto and it's a different game
or different outcomes So, look, I think that we're here.
I feel a bit of the air has come out
of the thing because we've been in South Africa. We
were in South Africa for a long time. It felt
like the Obelix were clearly chasing two wins over there.
(14:43):
And I don't think they would go, hey, we've won
the series. But they would have a mini celebration at
that point because it would have been a series within
a series. But they'd be pretty motivated to win. I
think they're taking the whole four-test thing seriously. But, yeah, look,
I think they've got to show that they've learned something.
how they beat South Africa because they've manipulated them they've
(15:04):
scored 13 tries they've shown they can get round the
outside of them they haven't gone through the middle of
them too much but they've got to improve their scrum
whatever I don't care who's cheating who's not cheating outcome
has to be better for New Zealand because you cannot
have an All Black pack going backwards at the rate
of knots that they were for that penalty try you
can't have a rolling wall start outside the 22 and
(15:26):
end up under the posts in a try when you're the.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
All Blacks that's That's not okay. You can't have that.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
So all the talk about, oh, well, this was happening
and that was happening, that just needs to be fixed,
and that can't happen again.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And if they can do that and.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Hold or withstand the physicality that South Africa are producing,
then I think they've shown they're better at using the
ball than South Africa. 13 tries to Mike Blair, we're
talking about that. You and I were talking to Mike
Blair about that. It's a wee celebration for them. They
can't say, hey, we scored 13 tries, but we didn't
(16:00):
win the series. But it is an indication that they
can attack, that they understand their attack game, and it
is working. 13 against South Africa, that is a lot,
because they typically only give away one or two max
in a game.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Just finally, obviously, as you said, in Baltimore, I don't
think either of us are huge fans of the tacked-on
fourth game. We were at the Baltimore Ravens facility, got
lucky enough to have a tour of that earlier today.
Funnily enough, my Uber driver did know this match was on,
so any questions around that regard? But it's hard to
get a sense. You've gone from being in the pressure
cooker leading up to the test series of all the
(16:38):
tour games in South Africa, and to your point before
about the air coming out of the series a little bit,
you go from it being... everywhere you look to being
nowhere essentially you look, I don't think that's actually healthy
for the series as a concept, even if you are
managing to cash in a little bit.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
No, I don't think it's healthy for the series. I
think it's going to be, they've sold it out, so
that's fine. But I think I would imagine that the
vast majority of tickets are being sold to expat South
Africans and Kiwis and the USA Rugby fraternity that would love,
you know, they're loving the fact that these big games
are getting played here like we would go to an
NFL game if it was played in Auckland type thing.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So, yeah, I don't love it for the series.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
You know, we're actually sitting here about five metres away
from New Zealand Rugby Chief Exec Steve Lancaster.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I had a chat with him yesterday.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
I sort of asked him these questions and he, you know,
he got a bit sprightly in return about, no, no, look,
it's a whole new group of people that get to
come to watch the very important for us to be
here we're spreading the gospel we're taking RGR and showing
how good this rivalry is to whole new markets so
yeah you can make all these all these stories and
yeah look they are making a lot of money by
(17:47):
the way seven million dollars it's the most each yeah
yeah each team it's the most lucrative game New Zealand
uh the All Blacks have ever played one off um
I mean, if you're going to sell your soul, I
suppose sell it for something, you know, that's top dollar.
But again, I just wonder if all that, you know,
you can, you can always make, you can't use money,
(18:10):
making money as an argument to trump everything else because
then you become a drug dealer almost because you can
make any argument you like to.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Say, I don't think that's a healthy proposition. But, you know,
but here might be a great game and we might
feel differently at the end.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
So Gregor Paul there joining us on Rugby Direct. As
I said, a bit of a different Rugby Direct for
you this week. We'll check our diaries, hopefully catch up
with Liam to wrap up the series at some point
over the next wee while once he's back in New
Zealand and once we are back in New Zealand as well.
We'll have an update for you on that in the
next wee while. But in the meantime, the All Blacks
(18:48):
looking to draw the series against South Africa. 9am on
Sunday morning. You can catch it live on Newstalk Z.
Be able to afford your company. Then Thanks to Mark
Kelly for producing, as always, and Rugby Direct, powered by
Access Solutions, elevating you and your business to a higher level.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
For more from Newstalk ZB, listen live, on air, or online.
And keep our shows with you wherever you go, with
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