March 3, 2026 • 33 mins
On the latest Rugby direct Elliott Smith and Liam Napier discuss the announcement of the new All Blacks coach Dave Rennie. Liam shares new details on the potential make up of the coaching group and Elliott believes its time to move on from Scott Barrett as the captain. Also, where to now for Jamie Joseph.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at B.
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Straight down the Middle, Get inside the game from Every
end Goal.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier powered
by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Welcome in to Rugby Direct powered by Habit Health Physio
book today and Stay in the Game podcast number two
of Rugby Direct Today Elliott Smith and by popular demand,
We've had letters, We actually have had letters demanding Liam
Napier return to the podcast on this day of all days,
as Dave Rennie is an Ounstall Blacks coach. Liam Napier
returns to Rugby Direct. Then you, as you label yourself
(00:59):
before Bionic.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Man, that's right, Elliott's. I couldn't miss such a big day.
I wouldn't say come from the hospital bed, but shall
we stay new and improved back?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Good to have you back. Well, let's start with us.
Your reaction even before the media conference to Dave Rennie
being confirmed as the All Blacks head coach.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Look for me, Elliott's.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I think it's the right call and I think from
my perspective, it's an easy decision. I felt from the
outset that Dave Rennie was the compelling candidate. That's not
to say it's going to be easy for him. It's
going to be a pretty tough variety. He's got what
four months before the first test, five months before going
to South Africa, in fifteen months before the World Cup,
(01:42):
so it's a really tough scenario there. And look, Jamie
Joseph had credentials, but I just I feel like Joseph
not having Tony Brown with him was a major blow
for his credentials. And also when we go through and
look at their respective coaching teams, I think Joseph was
(02:03):
looking at retaining a lot of Scott Robertson's assistance and
I didn't really like the sound of that as well.
So on the face of it, I think they've been
through a thorough process. They went up to Japan, they
went to Dunedin, they spoke to a number of different references,
they had three four hour long in person interviews.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
So I don't think you can knock the process.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Maybe you would have wanted more candidates involved, the likes
of Joe Schmidt, but the way things are boiled down,
I think Dave Renni is the best possible candidate in
the circumstance.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
The culture that Dave Rennie brings to an organization, he
was famous for it at the Chiefs around what he
was able to tap into the Malti culture and the
Waiktau and linking that all back together and won them
a couple of titles in twenty twelve and twenty thirteen,
and they were there or thereabouts and the other years
(02:55):
as well. From what I understand, the Wallabies had a
really strong culture under him as well. How much do
you think that played a key part in terms of
he's got an eighteen month window through to the Rugby
World Cup next year, getting a culture in place quickly
and being able to get you know, where this team
needs to be from a culture perspective.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Yeah, I think it's certainly a major factor. Look, culture's
an interesting concept, doesn't it. It's intangible and when you
look at Scott Robertson's rise to the All Blacks, he
was by and large sort of tagged as a bit
of a culture coach, but couldn't carry that from the
Crusaders through to the All Blacks. That that was a
real downfall of his Dave Rennie, as you mentioned, has
(03:38):
done a great job of it everywhere. He's been tapping
into that mouldiedom at the Chiefs, making the players help
build their training base, all those sort of skin in
the game purpose and meaning.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
He took a lot of.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
That from Dave, from Wayne Smith as well, So I
think he's learned from a lot of different coaches along
the way. I think Renie's got very good relationships both
with players and coaches. He has built on that over time,
and you touched on it there with the Wallabies, even
when he was ousked by Hamish mcclennan for Eddie Jones,
(04:14):
which was a complete train wreck. So many of those
senior Wallabies spoke out in favor of Rennie and what
he was building and the build up to that World
Cup and that they were really annoyed that he had
been let go. So I think he's really popular among players,
and I think, look, I think this All Black team
does need to be brought together. It does need a
(04:34):
bit of a reset. It needs to get everyone on
the same page. It needs alignments, and I think Dave
Rennie has shown throughout his coaching career and a track
record I've been able to do that. But the All
Blacks that are a completely different beast, aren't they. The
pressure of the expectation, the scrutiny, the schedule, with what's
to come this year, it's going to be a tough ask.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Indeed it is, Jamie. Joseph was being tagged and I
think this has gone around this, you know, the Raby
circles a bit, you know, being a little too old school.
Do you think that hurt him in the sphere of
the all Blacks appointment panel.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
I think some things that would have come through, depending
on who that panel spoke to, would have been some
things about the way he tuned through some assistant coaches.
There's been a string leave the handas in recent times
my understanding, as he approached a number of different assistant
coaches to join him in this all blackbird Kenny Lynn,
who's now with the Pumas, was one Ian foster, Joe Schmidt,
(05:36):
Tony Brown, and I think they all decline for various reasons.
I think that probably potentially hurt his cause as well.
I just think Joseph needs Tony Brown as that foil.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
He's that old school, as you mentioned, tough task master,
he doesn't take any shit. He runs players really hard
in trainings, where Tony Brown is that softer foil, he
connects better with players, He's you know, a traditional assistant
in that regard. So I just didn't see Tony Brown,
sorry Jamie Joseph having that balance in his coaching. And
(06:14):
I think also the fact that while it didn't go
well from Renny has coached a Tier one international team
in the Wallabies, where Joseph had Japan, and while they
had success as a different kettle of fish, isn't it
in terms of expectations on week to week and having
to regularly beat Tier one opposition.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, absolutely, the pressures on and there's more media scrutiny,
there's more questions coming with a Tier one nation, and
you know he dealt with adversity as well in that
Wallaby's I know people will talk about the winning record
and I think it was thirty eight percent roughly, But
not to give him a pass necessarily, but you're going
to remember that first year was in COVID times. They
(06:55):
played the All Blacks four times in that first year.
They won one of those tests and probably should have
won two. That first Test in Wellington that year. He
had some wins over the spring Box there are a
couple of black marks. The lost to Italy along the way,
which is a you know, absolutely no no for the
the All Blacks going forward, but you know, it felt
(07:16):
like the Wallabies were on upwards trajectory by and large,
barring the Italy game heading into twenty three. The carpa
gets pulled out from underneath him and he has to
go elsewhere. How much do you think that the Kobe
role over the last couple of years has helped reinvent
him a little bit? I'm sure obviously obviously, you know,
we've talked about the members of the coaching panel go
(07:37):
over and observe him in Kobe, but he's also worked
with Ardie Savia, he's with Brodie Retallic, and I'm sure
that their comments haven't been lost on the you know,
the appointment panel around what they've dealt with at that.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
Club he touched on before.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I guess that Rennie's popularity among players, and I think
those players, along with Antonina Brown, who's also at Kobe,
would have spoke very highly of Dave Renni. I don't
know if necessarily coaching in Japan helps your cause, but
the fact that he has been offshore for nine years.
He's been to Scotland's had success with Glasgow, took them
(08:15):
to I think it was the Pro fourteen at that
time finals, been to Australia, been to Japan and then
new factor in that the experience in New Zealand's coaching
Wellington to the provincial title back in two thousand, taking
one or two from real.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Salad Dwellers to quite a competitive.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Provincial team, having great success with the New Zealand twenties
going to the Chiefs. So when you pull all that together,
it is quite a compelling track record. Where Joseph has
largely been with the Highlanders, Japan, he had a bit
of time with Wellington and New Zealand, Maldi and the
All Blacks fifteen, but it doesn't quite stack up in
(08:55):
terms of international the breeks of experience that Rennie's had
and the contrasting experiences, and I think you'll see that
come through potentially with Renie's favored coaching team and the
way he played the game, and it has views on
how to approach it there and interestingly you touch on
the springbox there, Elliott.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
I think I don't know how much can you read
into this.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
It's going to be trumped up and mentioned a lot
between now and the South African Tour. Rennie's record against Russia,
Rasmus's Russi, Raustmus's spring Box, He's sitting at seventy five percent.
How relevant is that when he steps into the all
Black skeg that was with the Wallabies.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Well, I think it's it's going to be mentioned, isn't
it at nauseum until that first test? When is it
late August between these two sides. I think it's about
the twenty first of August that that stat is going
to be mentioned on and on. I think it's valuable.
He's clearly found some secret source there. But it has
been a few years removed. You know that the spring
Box are a different team since they last played against
(09:55):
the Wallabies under Dave Rennie in twenty twenty two. I mean,
what four years removes since the end, I've added another
World Cup into the cabinet, They've got a new team,
They've got various other players. So I don't know that
you can read too much into it. I think it's
an encouraging stat, but you know, I think the spring
Walks have certainly changed since then. I want to get
on the media conference shortly in what you took out
of that when we were both there earlier in the
(10:18):
day as Dave Rennie and David Kirk fronted media. But
just going back to Dave Rennie's work with the Chiefs
and what stood out to me earlier in the day
is just looking, you know, back on Wikipedia and back
on the stats around the team for that final in
twenty twelve when they beat the Sharks, and some players
went on to hire honors after that, but Brady Retalick
hadn't made as All Black's debut at that point. Aaron
(10:40):
Cruden played a World Cup you know, semi final the
previous year, but it was his first year at the
Chiefs and hadn't properly established himself as an All Black.
You know, Sonny Williams in the midfield there, but you know,
players like Andrew Horror, Robbie Robinson, Assilia, Tom Craig Clark
in the twenty three these aren't with all due respect
to these guys, these aren't you know, greats of the
(11:02):
game that have gone on, you know, to become great
All Blacks. These are solid, very very hard working players
that he probably squeezed every last dropout of rather than
being you know, all blacks that he got the beast
out of at super rugby level.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Gareth Anskim was another brought down from the Blues and
it was a real hallmark of that Chiefs team. You know,
everyone looks at the Aaron Crudens and the sunny Bill
Williams and yeah, the headline figures that Rennie brought him,
but he completely overhauled a team that was coached the
last two years prior to that by Ian Foster. I
think they finished tenth and eleventh and Super rugby. Rennie
(11:39):
comes in alongside Wayne Smith, Tom Coventry and others and
has a complete clean out and won successive titles. And
the trademark of those teams, as you mentioned, was he
went out and selected players largely based on character and
work great and that's what he looks for.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
And it was very clear and evidence today, wasn't it.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
And Rennie's statements, I thought he was very calm, very
comfortable in front of the cameras and very clear and
concise and he said, look, players are going to have
to earn their place in this team. I don't have
any loyalties and I don't think that's necessarily true.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Across the board.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
He's not just going to not select an Artie severe,
but it's a very strong message to send in your
first press corrence, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
It is? Indeed, let's hear what Dave Rennie had to
say on that front.
Speaker 6 (12:22):
I guess one of vantage's Yeah, you know, players are
going to turn the right to wear the jersey. I've
I've sort of got no law ties. I don't come
from a team where I've had a lot of these
guys previously, and so I think that's really exciting. And
you know, we'll select based.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
On form, select based on form. I think that's encouraging
their land what he did say around that, because I
think there has been a tendency to select players that
either you're comfortable with or have reputations and have been
around the international game for a number of years. I hope,
you know, without wanting to disrespect anyone, but I hope
that Dave Rennie does stick to that and does select
(13:03):
on forman it is a clean slate, and he looks
for those hard working players and remodels it into his
image of wanting those hard working types that are going
to win test matches for their country.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Yeah, I think it's a great message to send, isn't it.
You've got you're essentially saying no one's safe. Look over
your shoulder, play well now because nobody's safe, and I
think that should evoke a rise in everyone. There's so
many contestable positions within their all Black squads. You've got
Richard Muwanga coming back, You've got a number of fringe
(13:35):
guys who could be putting their hands up, and a
change of coach can have a massive impact.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
On squad selection.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
So it's going to be very intriguing to see how
quickly Rennie progresses that come July.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Indeed, it is as you mentioned. I thought he was
calm and assured at the media conference today. He didn't
give away too much around the style of rugby that
he wants to play, necessarily keeping that in his arsenal
for the time being, but he said he had a
clear idea around they want you, they wanted to play. So,
based on what you know about Dave Rennie, what kind
(14:09):
of style are you expecting from him? He mentioned that
he's got some ideas around how they can make some
shifts from what he's seen the last couple of years.
But what do you expect the Dave Rennie style to
be for the All Blacks.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I think if you go back and look at the
Chiefs in particular, they were very confrontational and competitive around
the breakdown.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
A lot of teams actually complained.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
About the way they cleared out past the breakdown. So
they push the boundaries of the law, but very much
strong Ford orientated set piece, but not necessarily a.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Huge kicking game.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
And Rennie's teams traditionally are not afraid to have a
crack from inside their own half, and I think that's
real contrast for Jamie Joseph. He's more of a territorial
based coach, doesn't like to play in his own half,
will use the box kick or tactical kicking quite a lot,
and then look to play where Rennie's teams are not
afraid to chance their inside their own forty, inside their
(15:09):
own twenty two, to use their skills to have a
real crack and to try and create space. Any traditionally
as an attacking mind, so I think he will look
to bring on an attack coach, but that's one of
his strengths. So I think that's where you could see
some big shifts from the Saw Black team who do possess.
Let's be honest, a range of potent athletes that have
(15:30):
been stuttering in the past eighteen months, haven't they?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
They have, And it was interesting to hear him say
that he thinks that maybe New Zealanders don't appreciate the
quality of the rugby being played in the Northern Hemisphere
and that we've probably been a little bit closed minded
around the innovation of the game that happens here. And
we've been beating that Drum and others have as well
around the fact that New Zealand's been left behind in
that regard. But he seems more open minded around that
(15:57):
and how you know, perhaps New Zealand's been left behind
a little bit around some of those key innovations in rugby.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Yeah, And I think New Zealanders in general, because of
the time zone, because of our isolation, we can be
guilty of being in a bit of a bubble and
only looking at our own.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Backyard to a degree, or Australia.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
But you look at the Top fourteen, which we don't
see a lot of here, there's some brilliant rugby up
there in the UK as well. Northampton have played a
very open, expansive style of game in recent years. And
you know Lens has had great success in Ireland, so
Renny has experience that hasn't he with his two years
(16:39):
in Scotland and they think he's taken a lot from that.
And then even in other aspects of Japan and the Wallabies,
he's worked with a number of different coaches from around
the world, so I think that can only benefit him.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Well, it's touch on that the assistant coaches I said
before even front of the media that I su to
speak to. You'll go with players, coaches that he's worked
with before, from his chiefs environment. You know, he hasn't
got a lot of times he emphas today to get
into things. He's still with Kobe until early June. Then
(17:13):
it's going to be roughly what a month until his
first test in charge and then you look at the
bigger picture and its certainly not long to the Rugby
World Cup. So you can't go in with people that
you don't trust, are uncertain about. So is he more
likely do you think Liam to go with the you know,
the people that he knows well, the assistants that he's
worked with previously at you know, the number of places
he's been to.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Yeah, I think all coaches want to do that. You
look at Scott Robinson and his first coaching team. He
was so set from even probably a year out from
being appointed.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Wasn't here that Leo.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
McDonald, Jason Hollands, Jason Ryan and Scott Hansen were his
men and he never.
Speaker 5 (17:52):
Really wavered from that.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
So all coaches want to work with people that they
know and trust, and I think Dave Renny's no different.
I'm hearing he'll look to bring in Neil Barnes who
as one of his lead assistants. He worked with Barnes
and Ready worked together at the Chiefs. Barnes has also
had experience on the international scene with Canada and Italy.
I think he's been with Tartanaki and had success there
(18:14):
for six years. He's known as a real tough task
master with a lot of expertise around the lineup. Also
hearing whispers around someone like Mike Blair, who's currently coaching
with Rennie in Kobe. He's Scotland's most capted halfback, has
experience with Glasgow. He was head coach in Edinburgh and
(18:35):
Scotland before moving to Japan to join Rennie, so he
could potentially come on board as an attack coach. But
that would be very interesting from an All Blacks perspective.
Haven't had a foreign coach in the mix before. I
know you've advocated for that before, So interesting to see
how New Zealand Rugby would react to that. Andrew Strawbridge
potentially in the mix as a skills coach and other
(18:57):
former Chiefs guy, and I'm hearing Phil Healey as in
line likely to replace Nick Gill as strength and conditioning coach.
Phil Healey comes highly regarded. It was another guy that
was at the Chiefs and at the Blues and he's
now also in Kobe, so he's done on Rugby.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
May push back on some of that and.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Look to get Renny to retain more of the current
assistant coaches, maybe to look to save some money. But
if Renny got his way, I think Jason Ryan could
be the only survivor of those current assistant coaches.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
That would be a heck of a cleanout, wouldn't it.
And look, we talked at the top about Jamie Joseph
potentially more aligning with the current assistants. This it would
be on the verge of a pretty much a clear
out of the of the current assistants there, And I
think it's a hard one to say that the assistant
should be retained because you know a lot of them,
you know, are tarnished by the Scott Robertson brush of
(19:51):
that era just not working in the end. So I
think it's going to be interesting to see just where
Rennie lands if he does keep Jason Ryan. That is,
you know, full on clean out when you consider some
of the other roles that have departed, you know Nick
Gill as you mentioned there and others too. So so
it's going to be a different looking all back staff
this year, isn't.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
It It is?
Speaker 4 (20:13):
And look, there may be some form of compromise needed there.
News own Rugby may say, look, we want you to
retain Tumbody Allison or Bryn Evans. You know, there may
be some form of compromise required on Renney's behalf there.
But generally speaking, head coaches get car blanche, don't they.
They get to work with who they know and trust,
(20:34):
who they believe as the right man for the job.
And when you look at those assistant coaches, I think
Scott Hansen has to be in the spotlight because he
switched from defense portfolio to the attacking one and it
just it didn't work.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
So for me, he has to be in the firing line.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Tumbody Allison took over the defense, and I think he's
going to be a great coach in time. Whether he's
ready for the international arena now in a defensive coaching
role which comes with vast responsibility, not too sure. I
think Brandy Evans did a great job with the lineup,
but with Neil Barnes coming in and potentially Jason Ryan
being retained as well as their room for him, so
(21:17):
there's some big decisions and you'd expect that to play
out pretty quickly over the coming weeks because as you mentioned,
there's not a lot of time before that first Test.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
No, and he's going to need bodies on the ground,
isn't he in New Zealand, Because he mentioned he's going
to be spending every waking hour watching over tape and
he has been anyway watching a fair bit of super rugby,
but he's going to have to really dial that up
and he needs people on the ground to get the
ball rolling on some of those things. I asked Dave Rennie.
I think it was the only question I got in
whether the all Blacks can win next year's Rugby World Cup.
(21:48):
This is how he responded, all ances.
Speaker 6 (21:49):
Yes, and I'll take a hell of lot of work.
It'll take a lot of alignment. We're going to make
sure that players and staff and S and C and
the medical and we're all aligned so he can get
the athlete in the best possible position to execute and
play well.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
So that was Dave Rennie talking about the World Cup, hope.
So it was honest, but he said that's going to
take a lot of work. And I thought there was
a refreshing honest answer from Dave Rennie on that one. Liam.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
Yeah, absolutely, I thought he was very concise and clear
and honest.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
And he also acknowledged the fact that it's highly likely
that the All Blacks are on a collision course with
the spring Box and a World Cup quarterfinal. And when
I like the fact that when he talked about that,
he said we're going to get a lot of practice
against them, and how a lot of people view this
tor to South Africa as daunting prospects and I think
that's certainly how you and I were looking at it
(22:46):
from an All Blacks perspective prior to Scott Robinson sacking
and even now with the amount of change that the
All Blacks are going to have to go through in
a short space of time, going to South Africa, facing
the World champions on their home soil and their Super
rugby teams with the amount of depth that they had,
it seems very daunting. But they've Renny sort of flipped
down on his head, didn't he and talked about it
(23:09):
as as relishing that prospect.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Indeed, the other interesting point around the media conference, and
it's already been jumped on, is what Dave Renny said
around the eligibility laws. This has been a constant hot topic,
hasn't it on with Richie Mwanga and other players should
they be selected from abroad. Here's what he had to say.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
I'll comment on Bradier Retel. I'll get to see him
and train and play every week. He's stronger than he's
ever been, he's fit of and he's ever been top
tri score in Japan at the moment with eleven pretty
low at him back. I'm not sure if I'm allowed
to yet, but yeah, it's no doubt. You want to
(23:52):
win a World Cup. Ideally you've got your best players
available and obviously Richie's coming back, which which would be good.
He's been in great form in Japan and yeah, certainly
you have someone like a Bradier Retelic coming into the environment.
I reckon it'll really grow the whole group. He's he's
done a phenomenal job around leadership at Colby and you know,
(24:16):
I'm not sure him. How much do you guys watch
of that competition, but it's it's gone through the roof.
It's a lot of experienced coaches up there's some of
the best players in the world playing there and the
Coaley's really strong, so you know his sites up there,
it'll beat Sigarepey teams in this competition. So yeah, So
(24:36):
he's been phenomenal and if I had the chance to
get him back, I'd certainly jump in it.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
That was Dave Rennie talking about the eligibility laws. Interesting
that he put Brodie Ritelli's name out there. Not the
answer I expected from him.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Liam, No, it did catch me off guard, as oh,
I think it's the topic that will never die.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
It was.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
It was the topic that Scott Robinson was pretty passionate
about pushing. Wasn't he presented to the board he wanted
new Zealand Rugby to keep an open mind and for
Dave Rennie to tackle it so confrontingly and it's first
press currence signals that's that's high on his agenda as well. Look, personally,
I don't think that's a fight he's going to win,
(25:16):
but I can understand his perspective that he wants the
best players available to win a World Cup and he
still believes that Brodie Retelck is one of us.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Well, Brodie Retelick is only thirty four years of age.
My understanding is that when he went up there he
signed a three year deal which is now up after
the season. So it's interesting. You know, maybe it was
more a signal to David kirkho was standing alongside him
that maybe not seeped him from overseas, but we should
be trying to get this bloke back in New Zealand
(25:45):
rugby because he's still got eighteen months he could give
us in the run to next year's World Cup. So look,
that was a fascinating development. Could you see Brody Retelick
back in New Zealand rugby?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Liam, I think it's the only way that he'll play
for the All Blacks again.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
And if Dave Rennie wants him.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
I think he could probably convince him to come home,
and it was I did watch David Kirk his reaction.
Has Reny pointedly suggested that their Retelic should be selected
from off shore and there were a few raised eyebrows.
It's fair to say so. I don't see any winning
that fight. But yeah, what by all means, let's see
him back in New Zealand rugby. I think going to
(26:23):
Japan definitely prolonged players' careers. Brodie Retelic's still doing his thing.
He's top triscrew in the Japanese comps ready mentioned, So
bring him home and let's see him available. New Zealand
actually has some pretty talented locks running around to provide
and among others, Scott Barrett's.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Exactly. So the depth at lock is certainly better than
it than it was.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
There was grave fears weren't there and the post Sam
White Lock Brodie Retallic era. But I don't think anyone
would would turn down Retallic if he was available for selection,
just on the Scott Barrett scenario there. We also talked
about the captaincy at the Press Currents today. What do
you envision happening with your Black captaincy.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
It was a straight back from Dave Rennie, but it
certainly wasn't I would say a ringing endorsement. Wasn't Scott
Barrett is going to continue in this role. He called
him a fantastic player, said he's the current captain, said
he's keen to have a chat with him going forward.
That didn't sound to me like he's definitely the captain.
You know, he was far from a ringing endorsement. I
(27:30):
thought we may end up that he is the captain,
but at this point in time, it didn't sound like it.
And to be honest, I doubt that he will be
the captain for that All Blacks test against France on
July fourth. I can't see it happening. What about you, Yeah, I.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Think there will be a change.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
I think just as Sam came was Ian Foster's man
and Scott Robinson made a change when he came in,
I think Dave Rennie will do the same. Coaches tend to,
just as they do with their assistant coaches, select someone
that they prefer, that they know that they are aligned with.
Dave Rennie hasn't had, as far as I'm aware, a
great experience with Scott Barrett throughout his coaching career. They
(28:08):
were adverse series between the Chiefs and the Crusaders over
the years, and from my point of view, I think
it Woods relinquishing the captaincy would free Scott bart up.
I think he was a reluctant captain from the outset,
and I think it would allow him to get back
to the film that had him placed among the world's
(28:30):
best locks.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
So I think it would potentially be a win win scenario.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Let's wrap this up, Leam, Just finally, if we go
back to the man that missed out on this job
rather than the one that has got it in Jamie Joseph,
We're too now for him obviously missed out on this
role the second time. He sort of shot for it
after missing out in twenty twenty three when Robertson was
appointed for twenty twenty four. We're two now for him.
(28:56):
Does he surely he's not going to stick around the
Highlanders forever. It feels like he's got more international coaching
in him, but it doesn't seem like he'll probably ever
coach the All Blacks, to be honest, if his time now,
and it feels like the window might have closed on him.
So is there a window in international rugby somewhere still
for Jammy Joseph?
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Yeah, potentially. Look, I think you're right. I don't think
he sticks around. The Highland is too long. And I
think this is a real kick in the guts because,
as you say, it's his second crack at it. He's
been you know, by all accounts gracious in defeats. Sent
Dave Rennie a text and you know, supported him and
wished him well. But he was the front runner early
(29:38):
on for this role. He has coached the All Blacks fifteen?
Does he really want to hang around and do that again?
I think he will certainly be putting the feelers out
there offshore and seeing what's available. But let me put
this to you, Elliott, Dave Rennie's contracts only for eighteen
months through to the World Cup.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
Would he have liked longer?
Speaker 4 (30:00):
And then does that potentially open the door for a
Joseph or somebody else, a Joe Schmidt, someone else potentially
waiting in the wings long runway? What happens if the
All Blacks loser World Cup, World Cup quarterfinal? You know,
I know we're shooting a little bit cart before the
horse here, but an eighteen month contract pretty rare, and
(30:22):
if they potentially lost the World Cup quarter final, maybe
Reny is out the door, you know. So coaching longevity
as we've seen what the All Blacks is not guaranteed either.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
No, it's not. I'm sure he would have wanted more.
I'm sure Jamie Joseph that he got the job, would
have wanted more. My understanding is that, in an interesting break,
the negotiations were actually done with both parties before the
final interviews, so both parties knew the length of the
(30:53):
contract that they were getting, into the amount of money
they were getting paid and various other things. So that's
my understanding that they knew the term they were getting
and there wasn't really any regal room around it. We
saw the distraction that had happened last year or two
years ago now three years ago now when Scott Robertson
(31:13):
was appointed, Ian Foster was very upset with the way
that it played out, and so I can't see New
Zealand Rugby going through that process again. So I don't
think they'll make any decisions on it until whenever the
All Blacks are knocked out or lift the Rugby World
Cup next year in Australia. I think that's just the
probably accepted it that you know they'll have to go
(31:34):
with whoever comes through before then. You'd hate to see
Dave Rennie commit overseas or go somewhere else before then.
I don't think he would do that. But you know,
this is a risk that they are taking by not
signing him too longer than the end of November or
thereabouts next year. So it's a fascinating we wrinkle in
the process that they're going to have to do things
differently once again. But it appears liam that this is
(31:57):
a risk that New Zealand Rugby is willing to take
that they'll have to go with whoever's available, be that
Rennie or someone else post the twenty seven World Cup.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Yeah, I think it's probably the right way to go
about it.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
It's just very short, tough, hit and run mission, isn't it,
To come into the hot seat, to go to South Africa,
to go on winning World Cup in Australia, to rebuild
the culture of the All Blacks, to get everyone on
the same page all in that short space of time,
and then to win a contract renewal.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
So tough gig for Rennie.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
But it's a dream coaching role, wasn't it, And he
certainly started well today and we'll see how he goes
on the field comes.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Your life, indeed we will, Liam Napi, thank you so
much for your time. Look forward to touching base again
on Monday with our next pod. We'll get some super
rugby tips etc. In the background, and we'll check the
mail bag and there's been some interesting feedback demanding your return.
As I said at the top, So whoever you paid
to fire that through, thank you very much. But we
(33:00):
will touch base on Monday with another edition of the pod,
and who knows where the story's gone to you over
the next few days, So we'll watch the space but
Nape so I think so much your time. As always, no.
Speaker 5 (33:10):
Worries, mate.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
I'll be sure to bring some some heat for your
crusaders along the way, just to keep those Keep Hours
listeners happy.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Like the Fijian heats that wilted the hurricanes.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
Well look the state of that pitch, you know's there's
a lot to be said for that, and it's gonna
be great to see the Kinges bounce back against the
cards this week.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
We will see about that Lee and maybe Thank you
for your time. Mark Kelly, executive producer of Rugby Direct
and we're powered by Habit Heald Physio. Book Today and
stay in the.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Game for more from News Talks B Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
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You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at B.
Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Straight down the Middle, Get inside the game from Every
end Goal.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier powered
by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Welcome in to Rugby Direct powered by Habit Health Physio
book today and Stay in the Game podcast number two
of Rugby Direct Today Elliott Smith and by popular demand,
We've had letters, We actually have had letters demanding Liam
Napier return to the podcast on this day of all days,
as Dave Rennie is an Ounstall Blacks coach. Liam Napier
returns to Rugby Direct. Then you, as you label yourself
(00:59):
before Bionic.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Man, that's right, Elliott's. I couldn't miss such a big day.
I wouldn't say come from the hospital bed, but shall
we stay new and improved back?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Good to have you back. Well, let's start with us.
Your reaction even before the media conference to Dave Rennie
being confirmed as the All Blacks head coach.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Look for me, Elliott's.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I think it's the right call and I think from
my perspective, it's an easy decision. I felt from the
outset that Dave Rennie was the compelling candidate. That's not
to say it's going to be easy for him. It's
going to be a pretty tough variety. He's got what
four months before the first test, five months before going
to South Africa, in fifteen months before the World Cup,
(01:42):
so it's a really tough scenario there. And look, Jamie
Joseph had credentials, but I just I feel like Joseph
not having Tony Brown with him was a major blow
for his credentials. And also when we go through and
look at their respective coaching teams, I think Joseph was
(02:03):
looking at retaining a lot of Scott Robertson's assistance and
I didn't really like the sound of that as well.
So on the face of it, I think they've been
through a thorough process. They went up to Japan, they
went to Dunedin, they spoke to a number of different references,
they had three four hour long in person interviews.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
So I don't think you can knock the process.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Maybe you would have wanted more candidates involved, the likes
of Joe Schmidt, but the way things are boiled down,
I think Dave Renni is the best possible candidate in
the circumstance.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
The culture that Dave Rennie brings to an organization, he
was famous for it at the Chiefs around what he
was able to tap into the Malti culture and the
Waiktau and linking that all back together and won them
a couple of titles in twenty twelve and twenty thirteen,
and they were there or thereabouts and the other years
(02:55):
as well. From what I understand, the Wallabies had a
really strong culture under him as well. How much do
you think that played a key part in terms of
he's got an eighteen month window through to the Rugby
World Cup next year, getting a culture in place quickly
and being able to get you know, where this team
needs to be from a culture perspective.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Yeah, I think it's certainly a major factor. Look, culture's
an interesting concept, doesn't it. It's intangible and when you
look at Scott Robertson's rise to the All Blacks, he
was by and large sort of tagged as a bit
of a culture coach, but couldn't carry that from the
Crusaders through to the All Blacks. That that was a
real downfall of his Dave Rennie, as you mentioned, has
(03:38):
done a great job of it everywhere. He's been tapping
into that mouldiedom at the Chiefs, making the players help
build their training base, all those sort of skin in
the game purpose and meaning.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
He took a lot of.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
That from Dave, from Wayne Smith as well, So I
think he's learned from a lot of different coaches along
the way. I think Renie's got very good relationships both
with players and coaches. He has built on that over time,
and you touched on it there with the Wallabies, even
when he was ousked by Hamish mcclennan for Eddie Jones,
(04:14):
which was a complete train wreck. So many of those
senior Wallabies spoke out in favor of Rennie and what
he was building and the build up to that World
Cup and that they were really annoyed that he had
been let go. So I think he's really popular among players,
and I think, look, I think this All Black team
does need to be brought together. It does need a
(04:34):
bit of a reset. It needs to get everyone on
the same page. It needs alignments, and I think Dave
Rennie has shown throughout his coaching career and a track
record I've been able to do that. But the All
Blacks that are a completely different beast, aren't they. The
pressure of the expectation, the scrutiny, the schedule, with what's
to come this year, it's going to be a tough ask.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Indeed it is, Jamie. Joseph was being tagged and I
think this has gone around this, you know, the Raby
circles a bit, you know, being a little too old school.
Do you think that hurt him in the sphere of
the all Blacks appointment panel.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
I think some things that would have come through, depending
on who that panel spoke to, would have been some
things about the way he tuned through some assistant coaches.
There's been a string leave the handas in recent times
my understanding, as he approached a number of different assistant
coaches to join him in this all blackbird Kenny Lynn,
who's now with the Pumas, was one Ian foster, Joe Schmidt,
(05:36):
Tony Brown, and I think they all decline for various reasons.
I think that probably potentially hurt his cause as well.
I just think Joseph needs Tony Brown as that foil.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
He's that old school, as you mentioned, tough task master,
he doesn't take any shit. He runs players really hard
in trainings, where Tony Brown is that softer foil, he
connects better with players, He's you know, a traditional assistant
in that regard. So I just didn't see Tony Brown,
sorry Jamie Joseph having that balance in his coaching. And
(06:14):
I think also the fact that while it didn't go
well from Renny has coached a Tier one international team
in the Wallabies, where Joseph had Japan, and while they
had success as a different kettle of fish, isn't it
in terms of expectations on week to week and having
to regularly beat Tier one opposition.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, absolutely, the pressures on and there's more media scrutiny,
there's more questions coming with a Tier one nation, and
you know he dealt with adversity as well in that
Wallaby's I know people will talk about the winning record
and I think it was thirty eight percent roughly, But
not to give him a pass necessarily, but you're going
to remember that first year was in COVID times. They
(06:55):
played the All Blacks four times in that first year.
They won one of those tests and probably should have
won two. That first Test in Wellington that year. He
had some wins over the spring Box there are a
couple of black marks. The lost to Italy along the way,
which is a you know, absolutely no no for the
the All Blacks going forward, but you know, it felt
(07:16):
like the Wallabies were on upwards trajectory by and large,
barring the Italy game heading into twenty three. The carpa
gets pulled out from underneath him and he has to
go elsewhere. How much do you think that the Kobe
role over the last couple of years has helped reinvent
him a little bit? I'm sure obviously obviously, you know,
we've talked about the members of the coaching panel go
(07:37):
over and observe him in Kobe, but he's also worked
with Ardie Savia, he's with Brodie Retallic, and I'm sure
that their comments haven't been lost on the you know,
the appointment panel around what they've dealt with at that.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
Club he touched on before.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I guess that Rennie's popularity among players, and I think
those players, along with Antonina Brown, who's also at Kobe,
would have spoke very highly of Dave Renni. I don't
know if necessarily coaching in Japan helps your cause, but
the fact that he has been offshore for nine years.
He's been to Scotland's had success with Glasgow, took them
(08:15):
to I think it was the Pro fourteen at that
time finals, been to Australia, been to Japan and then
new factor in that the experience in New Zealand's coaching
Wellington to the provincial title back in two thousand, taking
one or two from real.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Salad Dwellers to quite a competitive.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Provincial team, having great success with the New Zealand twenties
going to the Chiefs. So when you pull all that together,
it is quite a compelling track record. Where Joseph has
largely been with the Highlanders, Japan, he had a bit
of time with Wellington and New Zealand, Maldi and the
All Blacks fifteen, but it doesn't quite stack up in
(08:55):
terms of international the breeks of experience that Rennie's had
and the contrasting experiences, and I think you'll see that
come through potentially with Renie's favored coaching team and the
way he played the game, and it has views on
how to approach it there and interestingly you touch on
the springbox there, Elliott.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
I think I don't know how much can you read
into this.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
It's going to be trumped up and mentioned a lot
between now and the South African Tour. Rennie's record against Russia,
Rasmus's Russi, Raustmus's spring Box, He's sitting at seventy five percent.
How relevant is that when he steps into the all
Black skeg that was with the Wallabies.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Well, I think it's it's going to be mentioned, isn't
it at nauseum until that first test? When is it
late August between these two sides. I think it's about
the twenty first of August that that stat is going
to be mentioned on and on. I think it's valuable.
He's clearly found some secret source there. But it has
been a few years removed. You know that the spring
Box are a different team since they last played against
(09:55):
the Wallabies under Dave Rennie in twenty twenty two. I mean,
what four years removes since the end, I've added another
World Cup into the cabinet, They've got a new team,
They've got various other players. So I don't know that
you can read too much into it. I think it's
an encouraging stat, but you know, I think the spring
Walks have certainly changed since then. I want to get
on the media conference shortly in what you took out
of that when we were both there earlier in the
(10:18):
day as Dave Rennie and David Kirk fronted media. But
just going back to Dave Rennie's work with the Chiefs
and what stood out to me earlier in the day
is just looking, you know, back on Wikipedia and back
on the stats around the team for that final in
twenty twelve when they beat the Sharks, and some players
went on to hire honors after that, but Brady Retalick
hadn't made as All Black's debut at that point. Aaron
(10:40):
Cruden played a World Cup you know, semi final the
previous year, but it was his first year at the
Chiefs and hadn't properly established himself as an All Black.
You know, Sonny Williams in the midfield there, but you know,
players like Andrew Horror, Robbie Robinson, Assilia, Tom Craig Clark
in the twenty three these aren't with all due respect
to these guys, these aren't you know, greats of the
(11:02):
game that have gone on, you know, to become great
All Blacks. These are solid, very very hard working players
that he probably squeezed every last dropout of rather than
being you know, all blacks that he got the beast
out of at super rugby level.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Gareth Anskim was another brought down from the Blues and
it was a real hallmark of that Chiefs team. You know,
everyone looks at the Aaron Crudens and the sunny Bill
Williams and yeah, the headline figures that Rennie brought him,
but he completely overhauled a team that was coached the
last two years prior to that by Ian Foster. I
think they finished tenth and eleventh and Super rugby. Rennie
(11:39):
comes in alongside Wayne Smith, Tom Coventry and others and
has a complete clean out and won successive titles. And
the trademark of those teams, as you mentioned, was he
went out and selected players largely based on character and
work great and that's what he looks for.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
And it was very clear and evidence today, wasn't it.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
And Rennie's statements, I thought he was very calm, very
comfortable in front of the cameras and very clear and
concise and he said, look, players are going to have
to earn their place in this team. I don't have
any loyalties and I don't think that's necessarily true.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Across the board.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
He's not just going to not select an Artie severe,
but it's a very strong message to send in your
first press corrence, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
It is? Indeed, let's hear what Dave Rennie had to
say on that front.
Speaker 6 (12:22):
I guess one of vantage's Yeah, you know, players are
going to turn the right to wear the jersey. I've
I've sort of got no law ties. I don't come
from a team where I've had a lot of these
guys previously, and so I think that's really exciting. And
you know, we'll select based.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
On form, select based on form. I think that's encouraging
their land what he did say around that, because I
think there has been a tendency to select players that
either you're comfortable with or have reputations and have been
around the international game for a number of years. I hope,
you know, without wanting to disrespect anyone, but I hope
that Dave Rennie does stick to that and does select
(13:03):
on forman it is a clean slate, and he looks
for those hard working players and remodels it into his
image of wanting those hard working types that are going
to win test matches for their country.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Yeah, I think it's a great message to send, isn't it.
You've got you're essentially saying no one's safe. Look over
your shoulder, play well now because nobody's safe, and I
think that should evoke a rise in everyone. There's so
many contestable positions within their all Black squads. You've got
Richard Muwanga coming back, You've got a number of fringe
(13:35):
guys who could be putting their hands up, and a
change of coach can have a massive impact.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
On squad selection.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
So it's going to be very intriguing to see how
quickly Rennie progresses that come July.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Indeed, it is as you mentioned. I thought he was
calm and assured at the media conference today. He didn't
give away too much around the style of rugby that
he wants to play, necessarily keeping that in his arsenal
for the time being, but he said he had a
clear idea around they want you, they wanted to play. So,
based on what you know about Dave Rennie, what kind
(14:09):
of style are you expecting from him? He mentioned that
he's got some ideas around how they can make some
shifts from what he's seen the last couple of years.
But what do you expect the Dave Rennie style to
be for the All Blacks.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I think if you go back and look at the
Chiefs in particular, they were very confrontational and competitive around
the breakdown.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
A lot of teams actually complained.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
About the way they cleared out past the breakdown. So
they push the boundaries of the law, but very much
strong Ford orientated set piece, but not necessarily a.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Huge kicking game.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
And Rennie's teams traditionally are not afraid to have a
crack from inside their own half, and I think that's
real contrast for Jamie Joseph. He's more of a territorial
based coach, doesn't like to play in his own half,
will use the box kick or tactical kicking quite a lot,
and then look to play where Rennie's teams are not
afraid to chance their inside their own forty, inside their
(15:09):
own twenty two, to use their skills to have a
real crack and to try and create space. Any traditionally
as an attacking mind, so I think he will look
to bring on an attack coach, but that's one of
his strengths. So I think that's where you could see
some big shifts from the Saw Black team who do possess.
Let's be honest, a range of potent athletes that have
(15:30):
been stuttering in the past eighteen months, haven't they?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
They have, And it was interesting to hear him say
that he thinks that maybe New Zealanders don't appreciate the
quality of the rugby being played in the Northern Hemisphere
and that we've probably been a little bit closed minded
around the innovation of the game that happens here. And
we've been beating that Drum and others have as well
around the fact that New Zealand's been left behind in
that regard. But he seems more open minded around that
(15:57):
and how you know, perhaps New Zealand's been left behind
a little bit around some of those key innovations in rugby.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Yeah, And I think New Zealanders in general, because of
the time zone, because of our isolation, we can be
guilty of being in a bit of a bubble and
only looking at our own.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Backyard to a degree, or Australia.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
But you look at the Top fourteen, which we don't
see a lot of here, there's some brilliant rugby up
there in the UK as well. Northampton have played a
very open, expansive style of game in recent years. And
you know Lens has had great success in Ireland, so
Renny has experience that hasn't he with his two years
(16:39):
in Scotland and they think he's taken a lot from that.
And then even in other aspects of Japan and the Wallabies,
he's worked with a number of different coaches from around
the world, so I think that can only benefit him.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Well, it's touch on that the assistant coaches I said
before even front of the media that I su to
speak to. You'll go with players, coaches that he's worked
with before, from his chiefs environment. You know, he hasn't
got a lot of times he emphas today to get
into things. He's still with Kobe until early June. Then
(17:13):
it's going to be roughly what a month until his
first test in charge and then you look at the
bigger picture and its certainly not long to the Rugby
World Cup. So you can't go in with people that
you don't trust, are uncertain about. So is he more
likely do you think Liam to go with the you know,
the people that he knows well, the assistants that he's
worked with previously at you know, the number of places
he's been to.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Yeah, I think all coaches want to do that. You
look at Scott Robinson and his first coaching team. He
was so set from even probably a year out from
being appointed.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Wasn't here that Leo.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
McDonald, Jason Hollands, Jason Ryan and Scott Hansen were his
men and he never.
Speaker 5 (17:52):
Really wavered from that.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
So all coaches want to work with people that they
know and trust, and I think Dave Renny's no different.
I'm hearing he'll look to bring in Neil Barnes who
as one of his lead assistants. He worked with Barnes
and Ready worked together at the Chiefs. Barnes has also
had experience on the international scene with Canada and Italy.
I think he's been with Tartanaki and had success there
(18:14):
for six years. He's known as a real tough task
master with a lot of expertise around the lineup. Also
hearing whispers around someone like Mike Blair, who's currently coaching
with Rennie in Kobe. He's Scotland's most capted halfback, has
experience with Glasgow. He was head coach in Edinburgh and
(18:35):
Scotland before moving to Japan to join Rennie, so he
could potentially come on board as an attack coach. But
that would be very interesting from an All Blacks perspective.
Haven't had a foreign coach in the mix before. I
know you've advocated for that before, So interesting to see
how New Zealand Rugby would react to that. Andrew Strawbridge
potentially in the mix as a skills coach and other
(18:57):
former Chiefs guy, and I'm hearing Phil Healey as in
line likely to replace Nick Gill as strength and conditioning coach.
Phil Healey comes highly regarded. It was another guy that
was at the Chiefs and at the Blues and he's
now also in Kobe, so he's done on Rugby.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
May push back on some of that and.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Look to get Renny to retain more of the current
assistant coaches, maybe to look to save some money. But
if Renny got his way, I think Jason Ryan could
be the only survivor of those current assistant coaches.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
That would be a heck of a cleanout, wouldn't it.
And look, we talked at the top about Jamie Joseph
potentially more aligning with the current assistants. This it would
be on the verge of a pretty much a clear
out of the of the current assistants there, And I
think it's a hard one to say that the assistant
should be retained because you know a lot of them,
you know, are tarnished by the Scott Robertson brush of
(19:51):
that era just not working in the end. So I
think it's going to be interesting to see just where
Rennie lands if he does keep Jason Ryan. That is,
you know, full on clean out when you consider some
of the other roles that have departed, you know Nick
Gill as you mentioned there and others too. So so
it's going to be a different looking all back staff
this year, isn't.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
It It is?
Speaker 4 (20:13):
And look, there may be some form of compromise needed there.
News own Rugby may say, look, we want you to
retain Tumbody Allison or Bryn Evans. You know, there may
be some form of compromise required on Renney's behalf there.
But generally speaking, head coaches get car blanche, don't they.
They get to work with who they know and trust,
(20:34):
who they believe as the right man for the job.
And when you look at those assistant coaches, I think
Scott Hansen has to be in the spotlight because he
switched from defense portfolio to the attacking one and it
just it didn't work.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
So for me, he has to be in the firing line.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Tumbody Allison took over the defense, and I think he's
going to be a great coach in time. Whether he's
ready for the international arena now in a defensive coaching
role which comes with vast responsibility, not too sure. I
think Brandy Evans did a great job with the lineup,
but with Neil Barnes coming in and potentially Jason Ryan
being retained as well as their room for him, so
(21:17):
there's some big decisions and you'd expect that to play
out pretty quickly over the coming weeks because as you mentioned,
there's not a lot of time before that first Test.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
No, and he's going to need bodies on the ground,
isn't he in New Zealand, Because he mentioned he's going
to be spending every waking hour watching over tape and
he has been anyway watching a fair bit of super rugby,
but he's going to have to really dial that up
and he needs people on the ground to get the
ball rolling on some of those things. I asked Dave Rennie.
I think it was the only question I got in
whether the all Blacks can win next year's Rugby World Cup.
(21:48):
This is how he responded, all ances.
Speaker 6 (21:49):
Yes, and I'll take a hell of lot of work.
It'll take a lot of alignment. We're going to make
sure that players and staff and S and C and
the medical and we're all aligned so he can get
the athlete in the best possible position to execute and
play well.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
So that was Dave Rennie talking about the World Cup, hope.
So it was honest, but he said that's going to
take a lot of work. And I thought there was
a refreshing honest answer from Dave Rennie on that one. Liam.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
Yeah, absolutely, I thought he was very concise and clear
and honest.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
And he also acknowledged the fact that it's highly likely
that the All Blacks are on a collision course with
the spring Box and a World Cup quarterfinal. And when
I like the fact that when he talked about that,
he said we're going to get a lot of practice
against them, and how a lot of people view this
tor to South Africa as daunting prospects and I think
that's certainly how you and I were looking at it
(22:46):
from an All Blacks perspective prior to Scott Robinson sacking
and even now with the amount of change that the
All Blacks are going to have to go through in
a short space of time, going to South Africa, facing
the World champions on their home soil and their Super
rugby teams with the amount of depth that they had,
it seems very daunting. But they've Renny sort of flipped
down on his head, didn't he and talked about it
(23:09):
as as relishing that prospect.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Indeed, the other interesting point around the media conference, and
it's already been jumped on, is what Dave Renny said
around the eligibility laws. This has been a constant hot topic,
hasn't it on with Richie Mwanga and other players should
they be selected from abroad. Here's what he had to say.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
I'll comment on Bradier Retel. I'll get to see him
and train and play every week. He's stronger than he's
ever been, he's fit of and he's ever been top
tri score in Japan at the moment with eleven pretty
low at him back. I'm not sure if I'm allowed
to yet, but yeah, it's no doubt. You want to
(23:52):
win a World Cup. Ideally you've got your best players
available and obviously Richie's coming back, which which would be good.
He's been in great form in Japan and yeah, certainly
you have someone like a Bradier Retelic coming into the environment.
I reckon it'll really grow the whole group. He's he's
done a phenomenal job around leadership at Colby and you know,
(24:16):
I'm not sure him. How much do you guys watch
of that competition, but it's it's gone through the roof.
It's a lot of experienced coaches up there's some of
the best players in the world playing there and the
Coaley's really strong, so you know his sites up there,
it'll beat Sigarepey teams in this competition. So yeah, So
(24:36):
he's been phenomenal and if I had the chance to
get him back, I'd certainly jump in it.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
That was Dave Rennie talking about the eligibility laws. Interesting
that he put Brodie Ritelli's name out there. Not the
answer I expected from him.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Liam, No, it did catch me off guard, as oh,
I think it's the topic that will never die.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
It was.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
It was the topic that Scott Robinson was pretty passionate
about pushing. Wasn't he presented to the board he wanted
new Zealand Rugby to keep an open mind and for
Dave Rennie to tackle it so confrontingly and it's first
press currence signals that's that's high on his agenda as well. Look, personally,
I don't think that's a fight he's going to win,
(25:16):
but I can understand his perspective that he wants the
best players available to win a World Cup and he
still believes that Brodie Retelck is one of us.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Well, Brodie Retelick is only thirty four years of age.
My understanding is that when he went up there he
signed a three year deal which is now up after
the season. So it's interesting. You know, maybe it was
more a signal to David kirkho was standing alongside him
that maybe not seeped him from overseas, but we should
be trying to get this bloke back in New Zealand
(25:45):
rugby because he's still got eighteen months he could give
us in the run to next year's World Cup. So look,
that was a fascinating development. Could you see Brody Retelick
back in New Zealand rugby?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Liam, I think it's the only way that he'll play
for the All Blacks again.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
And if Dave Rennie wants him.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
I think he could probably convince him to come home,
and it was I did watch David Kirk his reaction.
Has Reny pointedly suggested that their Retelic should be selected
from off shore and there were a few raised eyebrows.
It's fair to say so. I don't see any winning
that fight. But yeah, what by all means, let's see
him back in New Zealand rugby. I think going to
(26:23):
Japan definitely prolonged players' careers. Brodie Retelic's still doing his thing.
He's top triscrew in the Japanese comps ready mentioned, So
bring him home and let's see him available. New Zealand
actually has some pretty talented locks running around to provide
and among others, Scott Barrett's.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Exactly. So the depth at lock is certainly better than
it than it was.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
There was grave fears weren't there and the post Sam
White Lock Brodie Retallic era. But I don't think anyone
would would turn down Retallic if he was available for selection,
just on the Scott Barrett scenario there. We also talked
about the captaincy at the Press Currents today. What do
you envision happening with your Black captaincy.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
It was a straight back from Dave Rennie, but it
certainly wasn't I would say a ringing endorsement. Wasn't Scott
Barrett is going to continue in this role. He called
him a fantastic player, said he's the current captain, said
he's keen to have a chat with him going forward.
That didn't sound to me like he's definitely the captain.
You know, he was far from a ringing endorsement. I
(27:30):
thought we may end up that he is the captain,
but at this point in time, it didn't sound like it.
And to be honest, I doubt that he will be
the captain for that All Blacks test against France on
July fourth. I can't see it happening. What about you, Yeah, I.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Think there will be a change.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
I think just as Sam came was Ian Foster's man
and Scott Robinson made a change when he came in,
I think Dave Rennie will do the same. Coaches tend to,
just as they do with their assistant coaches, select someone
that they prefer, that they know that they are aligned with.
Dave Rennie hasn't had, as far as I'm aware, a
great experience with Scott Barrett throughout his coaching career. They
(28:08):
were adverse series between the Chiefs and the Crusaders over
the years, and from my point of view, I think
it Woods relinquishing the captaincy would free Scott bart up.
I think he was a reluctant captain from the outset,
and I think it would allow him to get back
to the film that had him placed among the world's
(28:30):
best locks.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
So I think it would potentially be a win win scenario.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Let's wrap this up, Leam, Just finally, if we go
back to the man that missed out on this job
rather than the one that has got it in Jamie Joseph,
We're too now for him obviously missed out on this
role the second time. He sort of shot for it
after missing out in twenty twenty three when Robertson was
appointed for twenty twenty four. We're two now for him.
(28:56):
Does he surely he's not going to stick around the
Highlanders forever. It feels like he's got more international coaching
in him, but it doesn't seem like he'll probably ever
coach the All Blacks, to be honest, if his time now,
and it feels like the window might have closed on him.
So is there a window in international rugby somewhere still
for Jammy Joseph?
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Yeah, potentially. Look, I think you're right. I don't think
he sticks around. The Highland is too long. And I
think this is a real kick in the guts because,
as you say, it's his second crack at it. He's
been you know, by all accounts gracious in defeats. Sent
Dave Rennie a text and you know, supported him and
wished him well. But he was the front runner early
(29:38):
on for this role. He has coached the All Blacks fifteen?
Does he really want to hang around and do that again?
I think he will certainly be putting the feelers out
there offshore and seeing what's available. But let me put
this to you, Elliott, Dave Rennie's contracts only for eighteen
months through to the World Cup.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
Would he have liked longer?
Speaker 4 (30:00):
And then does that potentially open the door for a
Joseph or somebody else, a Joe Schmidt, someone else potentially
waiting in the wings long runway? What happens if the
All Blacks loser World Cup, World Cup quarterfinal? You know,
I know we're shooting a little bit cart before the
horse here, but an eighteen month contract pretty rare, and
(30:22):
if they potentially lost the World Cup quarter final, maybe
Reny is out the door, you know. So coaching longevity
as we've seen what the All Blacks is not guaranteed either.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
No, it's not. I'm sure he would have wanted more.
I'm sure Jamie Joseph that he got the job, would
have wanted more. My understanding is that, in an interesting break,
the negotiations were actually done with both parties before the
final interviews, so both parties knew the length of the
(30:53):
contract that they were getting, into the amount of money
they were getting paid and various other things. So that's
my understanding that they knew the term they were getting
and there wasn't really any regal room around it. We
saw the distraction that had happened last year or two
years ago now three years ago now when Scott Robertson
(31:13):
was appointed, Ian Foster was very upset with the way
that it played out, and so I can't see New
Zealand Rugby going through that process again. So I don't
think they'll make any decisions on it until whenever the
All Blacks are knocked out or lift the Rugby World
Cup next year in Australia. I think that's just the
probably accepted it that you know they'll have to go
(31:34):
with whoever comes through before then. You'd hate to see
Dave Rennie commit overseas or go somewhere else before then.
I don't think he would do that. But you know,
this is a risk that they are taking by not
signing him too longer than the end of November or
thereabouts next year. So it's a fascinating we wrinkle in
the process that they're going to have to do things
differently once again. But it appears liam that this is
(31:57):
a risk that New Zealand Rugby is willing to take
that they'll have to go with whoever's available, be that
Rennie or someone else post the twenty seven World Cup.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Yeah, I think it's probably the right way to go
about it.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
It's just very short, tough, hit and run mission, isn't it,
To come into the hot seat, to go to South Africa,
to go on winning World Cup in Australia, to rebuild
the culture of the All Blacks, to get everyone on
the same page all in that short space of time,
and then to win a contract renewal.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
So tough gig for Rennie.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
But it's a dream coaching role, wasn't it, And he
certainly started well today and we'll see how he goes
on the field comes.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Your life, indeed we will, Liam Napi, thank you so
much for your time. Look forward to touching base again
on Monday with our next pod. We'll get some super
rugby tips etc. In the background, and we'll check the
mail bag and there's been some interesting feedback demanding your return.
As I said at the top, So whoever you paid
to fire that through, thank you very much. But we
(33:00):
will touch base on Monday with another edition of the pod,
and who knows where the story's gone to you over
the next few days, So we'll watch the space but
Nape so I think so much your time. As always, no.
Speaker 5 (33:10):
Worries, mate.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
I'll be sure to bring some some heat for your
crusaders along the way, just to keep those Keep Hours
listeners happy.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Like the Fijian heats that wilted the hurricanes.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
Well look the state of that pitch, you know's there's
a lot to be said for that, and it's gonna
be great to see the Kinges bounce back against the
cards this week.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
We will see about that Lee and maybe Thank you
for your time. Mark Kelly, executive producer of Rugby Direct
and we're powered by Habit Heald Physio. Book Today and
stay in the.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Game for more from News Talks B Listen live on
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