May 13, 2026 • 42 mins
In this special episode of Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier are joined in studio by the new New Zealand Rugby CEO Steve Lancaster.
The trio dive into the game’s biggest talking points - from governance and the future of Super Rugby to player pathways and the challenges shaping rugby in Aotearoa.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at b
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Speaker 2 (00:20):
Trucks, Guy.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Tryst Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby
Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Be Welcome into Rugby to Ranks, powered by in Zied Safety,
Blackwoods Safety, therein Boots and or special Wednesday drop of
the podcast for you. Liam and I were joined by
New Zealand Rugby's new Chief executive Steve Lancaster to talk
about a range of issues in the game, from governance
(00:56):
to the pathways system to everything else around super Rugby
that is continuing to cause plenty of discussion. There were
a lot of topics covered as I mentioned, and I
hope you enjoy the chat. We will be back tomorrow
with another edition of Rugby Directs. We'll cover off some
of what Dave Renny had the same in front of
the media yesterday, as well as Sir Graham Henry's appointment
(01:20):
as an All Black selector. But let's get into our
chat with Steve Lancas to hear on Rugby Direct Thanks
as well to our production team, Mark, Kelly Caine, Dicky.
Here's Steve Lancas is Rugby Direct you see on Rugby
Chief Executive Steve Lancas to Welcome to Rugby Direct.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Thanks for joining us, Thanks for having me first time.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
It is absolutely and obviously big news for you in
the last week that you've gone up to the top job.
How how special has that been over the last week
and what's it been like since putting your feet under
the desk.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
It's been very special. I also that it's very humbling,
very exciting. I feel really privileged and really tired at
the moment. So I've never been so overwhelmed with the
volume of emails and text messages. But it's strong encouragement
from my wife to enjoy that while it lasts, because
it probably lasts for a short time.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
But it's been very special.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
But feed back under the test now and we're getting
on with it absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Obviously you did the role interim wise for a few months.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yeah, what did you learn as to what it takes
to run this organization of that period.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I think what I learned was that you have to
be across everything. Don't have the luxury that I have
had in the past of being able to focus on
one lane, be that professional team, high performance or the
community game. But you've got to be across everything that's
happening in terms of the rugby, but also commercially politically
your world, rugby politics, international relationships. So it's just a
(02:49):
breadth of things that you have to be across. It
has been the biggest learning curve for me.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Yeah, there's plenty on your plate from day to day,
week to week. We thought we might start with Super
Rugby and the future of the comp I. Yes, you know,
it's been through lots of iterations over the years and
a wee bit of a state of flux with Moana.
If we sort of start there, what's the leaders you
(03:14):
can tell us about Mowana and their future?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Yeah, well, not much has changed since since the news
broke around the pacifica medical Association's inability to keep operating
that team. So we've been really clear that we won't
be providing a financial solution to that. We're just we're
just not in a position to do so. We've you've
been hugely supportive of that team from its inception. It's
(03:39):
just such a shame that they are where they are
right for everyone involved the players, the staff, fans, partners,
and there are some parties that are working really hard
to find a way to keep that team in the competition.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So we engage with those parties. I can't tell you
who they are right now, but we are working.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
As fast as possible to understand whether they have viable,
feasible business cases for the team, because this isn't just
about getting that team through next year, right We need
to see that team able to stand on its own
too indefinitely. And so that's the bar that's been set
for for those parties.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
They understand that and we will work through that with
them as quickly as possible. What's the runway? Does it
have to be sorted a couple of weeks?
Speaker 4 (04:21):
It's pretty short, Yeah, it is. There's no there's no
deadline on this. And again, we want to do justice
to those people that are trying to keep the team
alive or afloat. And so, you know, we are just
mindful though that in terms of the runway, we need
to make some decisions and some announcements about the competition
next year. That's really important for a whole range of factors.
You know, broadcasters need to know, commercial partners need to know,
(04:42):
players need to know if they're making staff ground decisions.
So we'd like to think that we'll have clearly by
the end of this year's competition, but that's not a deadline,
right that could change.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
It has to remain fluid with super right been is
the competition fit for purpose? You guys love that per well, well,
it is.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
It is fit for purpose, and I'm sure we'll go
there because that's not to say that it doesn't have
its challenges, But for us, it's just two purposes. The
first purpose is that it keeps our best talent playing
in New Zealand for our teams and prepares them for
the All Blacks and then therefore for international competition.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It does that.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
And the second is that it's a thriving commercial property.
And that's a bit where it's probably challenged at the moment,
is that it's really hard for our clubs to be
profitable in any given year. So it certainly is fit
for purpose in terms of the product the pathway that
it's providing through the All Blacks. The bit that we've
(05:41):
got to do some work on is ensuring that the
business model around that is the right one going forward.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Can it be the right, one. Can these clubs make
a profit? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know, everything's possible, right, and
it's just a question of understanding the varying expectations of stakeholds.
We have a different expectation is New Zealand Rugby to
what a private vestor does who's put their own money
into the team. Ultimately, we're all involved because we love
the game, we care about the game, we care about
the product. But you know, the outcomes that we're seeking
(06:11):
might be slightly different as well. So we've just got
to we've got to balance those and find a way
that to ensure that everyone's desires are met over time.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Sup Gram.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Henry mentioned yesterday that we can't keep doing what we're doing,
introducing maybe a wider scope for New Zealand along with
retaining Australia.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Are you open to that idea? Would it work? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
So retaining Australia is critical, that's you know, it probably
goes for ussets are not negotiable for us, Like we
really believe in a transpasm and competition. The Australian market
is a big market and it's probably under access at
the moment for By Rugby and by Super Rugby, So
we think there's real opportunity for growth here in terms
of the competition. It's its profile, it's commercial footprint as well,
(06:54):
but and the vehicles that compete in the competition, Like,
we really do believe in having a small number of
New Zealand team New Zealand based teams or New Zealand
teams that aggregate our best talent and compete in that competition.
So at the moment, you know that we don't see
the need for any change. But look, Graham raised the
point you're starting. I saw that as sort as comments
around you know, maybe you have more more teams in
(07:15):
that company, provincial based teams, like everyone's got opinions on that, right,
that comes up all the time. The one thing I
would say about more teams is that that would raise
some real questions about viability, right, like do we have
the resources in this country financial resource, commercial resources, human
resources to have more than five New Zealand based nz
RT license teams in that competition. I don't know the
(07:38):
answer to that, but I think that would have to
be well tested before we let to more teams.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Rugby's a business, right, and you talk about the commercials
and super rugby and the bottom lines. We had Malcolm
gillies on a few weeks back, and I'm sure you
know he's got some pretty strong views about what could
change if we talk privatization. There is an element of
privatization in the Super Rugby clubs. Does it need to grow,
does it need to expand? And if so, what did that?
(08:06):
What would that mean for play a contracting and all
those sorts of things that are those discussions live? Are
they on the table?
Speaker 4 (08:12):
They are, They're alive and on the table. So Malcolm
voices used and again what a good thing. Has someone
come out saying they want to invest more money, right
and they want to find a way to do that,
and so we certainly welcome that.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
But you know, those are the things that we need
to work.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Through and we are they are live conversations right now.
You know, we're having a lot of conversations about Super Rugby.
Those conversations involve the owners of the clubs, the other
the various shareholders because of course many of them have
provincial union shareholdings as well, and our own people. So yeah,
live conversations and those ones won't be concluded anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I mean they'll be ongoing for probably for the rest
of the year. What about a draft? What are your
thoughts on that.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
Ellie and I have previously discussed things like franchises having
the ability to protect thirty players and then look into
the NPC and promoting that as a recruitment to all
having some form of draft day. Then there's other ideas
around a draft between player movement between New Zealand and Australia.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Where do you sit on that and whether that's a
viable option.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Yeah, I do have an open mind to that. I've
been around long enough to have been in the Super
Rugby model when there was a draft and you know,
the teams were able to protect a certain number of
players I think was in the low twenties back then,
and there was all sorts of tactics about how many
players were protected and who might be left unprotected that
(09:42):
you might be able to secure. And I and I
sat in the war room at Rugby Park with the Crusaders.
Many times we were at a whiteboard and we were
moving names around and strategizing how good if you can
commercialize that too. But you've got to balance that with
what's best for the players, what's on the best interest
of the players. And one of the things we constantly
balance here in New Zealand is ensuring that we've got
the right environment to make New Zealand as an attractive
(10:04):
New Zealand and attractive proposition as possible for our players.
And one thing is Rob Nichol and the Plays Association
being creon for a long time, is that they don't
really favor a draft. I'm not speaking for Rob because
his position may well have changed over time, but certainly
in the previous discussions I've had with Rob, his perspective
on behalf of the players and representing the players is
that they value the ability to make decisions about their lives,
(10:26):
about where they live, where they'll raise their families and
have some certainty about that, rather than be subject to
the woman of a coach's decision on a certain date
of the year and then finding that they've been whisked
off to another city for eight nine months of the year. So,
you know, we just got to balance that and as
I say, for us, the unique challenges that we work
really hard to create environments that keep our players in
(10:49):
the country, and if that's part of the mix, then
that certainly has an influence.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Super rugby this year. It feels to you personally my
personal view in a rugby commentator on a journalist, but
it feels like the quality has been to be honest,
be better than the NRL. But do you feel that
competition breathing down your neck from a New Zealand perspective.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
I have been our set a bit over the last week.
We're aware of how strong the NRL is at the
moment and good on them, right, they've got a great product,
they market it well. But that doesn't mean that rugby
can't be strong. There's there's no no law that says
that for one to be strong, the other has to suffer.
So we're really focused on our competition and as so,
(11:29):
I'm glad he say I think it's a better product.
We think it's a great product. I fact, we know
it's a great product. We're seeing over eight tries a
game and Super Rugby this year that's got that's more
tries a game than any of the other professional competitions
around the rugby competitions around the world, you know, less time,
less downtime due to match official interventions. And again there's
(11:49):
been a bit of chat over the last week about
the attendance and crowd size, and I've just got a
stat today that for the third year in a row,
we're seeing double digit attendance increases across all of the
five Super New Zealand Super franchises. So while I don't
I don't deny hide from the fact that we need
to keep growing attendance, it's actually tracking in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Let's move on two players. There's been, obviously, and there
always is players leaving, but it feels like maybe at
the moment there are more players getting offshore, even flounders
and others that are maybe leaving in their prime. Do
you have concerns that say the middle tier of New
Zealand rugby is being ripped away and more attracted to
Japanese dollars or going over to the United Kingdom and Europe.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Because something that we're always mindful of. I think we
need to be careful that we don't create a perception
that this is a bigger issue than it is right now,
because this is always an issue for New Zealand rugby
right and it will continue to be, not just because
players can earn more money overseas, but because young people
like spread their wings and travel, and rugby players have
(12:53):
some incredible opportunities to do that and go and play
in different environments and experience different cultures, different different teammates
and different communities. So our players are always going to
be moving offshore at some point. I do think also
that when you look at the cycle of World Cups,
you always see quite quite a lot of all black
(13:15):
movement post to World Club. Right, players will commit to
New Zealand through to a World Cup. You have to
be selected, and then they might use the opportunity after
a World Cup to go. So I think this is
just my view that some of that middle tier players
may well be looking at this point in time and saying, actually,
if I had another year the markets, there's going to
be a lot more supply in the market, so this
(13:37):
is a good time to move and capitalize. That's not
to say that we wouldn't like to keep some of
the players you've just mentioned, and we work really had
to do that, which comes back to the draft question, right,
like we look at everything we can do to make
New Zion the place that they want to be.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
If we look at.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Someone like for young and off for twenty three year
old lit up super Rugby this year. So much has
changed from the back end of last year, from when
he signed from Newcastle to now. He's clearly right in
the All Blacks frame and everyone would love to keep him,
maybe even he's leaning towards a change of heart. What's
(14:15):
stopping you from calling up Newcastle and saying, hey, we'd
love to keep this guy, can we can we work
something out?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
We don't really do that, but again, like it's these
are player choices. There's nothing stopping for him from doing that.
But it's not a space that we get into, right
and looking to buy players out of contracts or looking ahead.
And as you say, things have changed a lot for
him since the end of last year and he's taken
every opportunity he has been given. So good on him,
and he's made a decision. If he has a change
(14:45):
of heart, that's that's absolutely out to him. And I
heard Davey the same thing yesterday, right, like the ball
isn't his caught around that? But even if he does
honor his contract to Newcastle, he's still young, he might
he might well be back.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Brodie Rettallic was another name mentioned by it by Dave
Renni yesterday. Clearly there's a keenness on daver Rene's part
to all he's have a potential conversation if the travel
factor with Brodie can be can be sorted. But you
mentioned you're not in the business of going and making conversations.
But would Brody retire to be the kind of player
that you would get on the phone for or do
you just make it on Brody approaching New Zealand Rugby
all the chiefs or Dave Ronnie himself.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
I've got no doubt that coaches are always having conversations
with players, right, And I know Dave's talked to Brady,
But ultimately that again, that's a decision for Brady. We're
not in the business of trawling around the world hitting
players up and trying to get them out of contracts.
Our eligibility policy, our competition model, our contracting framework.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
They do buy in large work for us.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Right, We're gonna have a squad next year is capable
of winning the World Cup. So I mean, on that
measure alone, you'd say the model is working. And so
we're constantly balancing that, right and for a player like Brady's,
so over one hundred tests, he's done his time here
and now he's playing in a different competition, having a
different experience around out his career and happens to be
(16:04):
playing really well at the same time.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Flows well into the next question around eligibility. Look, personally,
I think as soon as you would contract dated and
you started and arrived in the country, you should be
eligible to play for the All Blacks. Can use outline again,
I know you've spoken about this before, but why such
a policy you wouldn't work in the case of say
Richie Woong of this year.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Yeah, it's about the unintended consequences of those decisions. So yeah,
if we were to change or disregard the policy and
say that a player could play offshore, recommit to New
zealand come back and come straight back into the All Blacks,
we believe that the implication of that would be that
would see a significant shift in decision making by players
(16:43):
as to their playing futures and contracting would open the door.
We might then see an exodus of players. Actually, not
just middle tier but top tier players are with players
thinking that they could go ashore back themselves to come
back after three or four years and go straight back
into an All Black team. And what we know is
that the policy as it stands now has been a
factor in the decisions of many players to recommit to
(17:06):
New Zealand, to play in New Zealand in order to
be eligible for the All Blacks. That in turn underpins
the strength of Super Rugby. Strength of the NPC keeps
these heroes in New Zealand visible to young people. So
we have to take a system lends to that. And
I celebrate the fact that we have an All Blacks
coach who has a short term millions and that that
(17:26):
says my job is to win in the era now
and I want the best possible players available. That's absolutely
I'd be disappointed if we didn't have an All Blacks
coach that was saying that to us. We have to
take a more medium to long term view and say, okay,
but how might that play out for our system over time?
And is that in the best interests of the game
or the All Blacks. And so right now we're comfortable
with the policy. Never say never, right, nothing is carved
(17:48):
in stone in this business, but for now we're clear
that the policy works.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I know that your NPC is accomplition close to your
heart and you've spent a lot of years overseeing it.
But with all due respect to the NPC, Davreni's not
going to slick the player straight out of the NPC
for the All Blacks this year. So why do you
make a play like Richie wanting to go back and
play in PC so he can be in the All
Black It feels like a like a box ticking exercise.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Almost.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Yeah, well it's not a box ticking exercise, and it's
not about making Richly play in the NPC. If he
had been back in New Zealand earlier and playing in
Super Rugby, he'd be eligible right now. So it's not
about the NPC. It's about the principle.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Sure, just on the last but one eligibility with Brody.
I think what David was pushing for is that here's
a guy like you say, that's played twelve years for
the Chiefs All Blacks. We've seen around the world work
to various degrees not to others Australia, Wales in terms
of metrics around certain caps or experience, and you can
(18:48):
select a next number from offshore. Do you envision there
being any regular room around that, whether that be next
year or beyond, or do you think like you say,
it's more important to protect the systems.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
It's a hard question to answer because it's to gaze
into the future and say what will happen. I would
never say never, right, We're constantly read value on this,
and as the market evolves and changes, it's possible that
at some point in the future there might be some
change the policy, but it's equally possible that we'll continue
to believe that the policy is right. So if you
(19:25):
look at an example like Brodie, there are just so
many other facts that play. They're all the things we
just talked about. But also, and I'm not just talking
about him, but any play in that situation. They're getting
to an age, get to a stage in their career,
they're playing in a different context. You know, everything around
them is different. There's no guarantee that they'd come back
into the All Blacks and be the player that they were,
the player that we see in another competition either. So
(19:46):
there's just so many things at playing that as I say,
we're not yeah, we're not in the business the saying
we will never change the policy, but we regularly revisit it.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Do you think the eligibility questions over Blonde a little
bit because part from the players on sabbatical longer Fortalic
would probably be the only ones, maybe an Aaron Smith.
In terms of a depth button of making the All
Blacks from abroad. Do you think it's it is overl
line this question.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
I'm going to answer that and the I'm going to
come back to the sabbatical point actually because I'm glad
you've raised that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
No, I don't.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I think it's great because people are talking about rugby
right and people are talking about rugby and the conversations
are making people more interested in rugby.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Fantastic. That's great for us.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
But I'm glad you've raise sabbaticals because I haven't talked
about that, and that's another part of our mixed ride
and that's something that does work for us. Where you know,
right now, Kobe, we've got Ardisavia and Antony Lenett Brown
on sabbaticals. They will be eligible for the All Blex
when they come back without having played Super rugby, and
so that is a really important vehicle for us where
we can work with the players to allow them to
(20:48):
go offshore, earn some good money, experience a different culture,
freshen up a little bit. Scott Barrett is actually not
playing at all, so you know, they don't have to
be playing. But that also allows us to have some
influence over the environment that they go into, right, how
what their load's going to be, like, what sort of
coaching they're going to be subject to. So it's great
days coming back. But the real is when those guys
(21:11):
went to Colbert and sabbatical, he wasn't but we had
a lot of confidence and you know, knowing that Dave
was the head coach to people had around him that
they were going into a good environment, they'd come back
and slop back into the all blacks affairs selected. So yeah,
thanks for raising that. But that's another part of that
mixed for us, right, it's a very complex mix.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Sure, if we look we're talking about eligibility and potential evolution,
if we broadened that out to the all blacks. Hot
topic recently has been that the ANZAC test that's been
on the agenda for a couple of years. Previously he's
a Rugby weren't interested for a whole host of reasons.
That seems to have shifted expectations that that will go
(21:51):
ahead from next year. I guess is what are the
pros and cons as we sit here now that you
see to that fixture, I guess you know the financial
win for impact on super Rugby is a lot of
things to weigh up.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yep, those are two of them. Those are two of
the big ones. So I guess what's you know?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
You're right.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
It's been on Rugby Australia's agenda for a couple of
years now, and there were conversations about it a couple
of years ago where we considered it and just said no,
we just don't think it's right for us right now.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
But things change again. This is a good example of
where things can change.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
We've got new leadership in our business, we've got new
coaching group with the All Blacks, We've got a bit
of a renewed focus on rugby Australia. One of the
things we're really aware of is the strength of rugby
in the North with the Home Unions and six Nations,
and the importance of us being strong in the South
and us being strong in the South starts with New
Zealand and Australia being close and working together as partners.
(22:45):
So we want to support rugby Australia. We know that
they've got a lot of competition in their backyard. So
you know it's hard at times for rugby to gain
real prominence and having an ANZAC bleed for them would
be a real boon for rugby, which would reflect back
to us in terms of some of the benefits. Right,
(23:05):
the raises the profile of rugby, It may raise interest
in Super Pacific. Keepis would go to that as well,
so right so it may be quite appealing to a
lot of people. So we've got an all Blacks coaching
group that are saying, actually, particularly if you look at
next year, hey, there could be some benefit and having
the opportunity to bring the group together earlier in the year.
But the risk of that is the downside of that
is which again with these are things we have to
(23:27):
wig up and what are the commercial considerations around that? Yeah,
it should be financially worthwhile, but how commercial rights shed
across the the two countries. How do we ensure it
works for our partners as well as Rugby Australia's Super
Rugby Pacific. How do we how do we manage the
impact on that because it would be played in the
middle of that competition. We think it can be, but
(23:47):
we've got to work through that. What are the views
of the superclubs, what are the views of the players?
How do they feel about going and playing a week
of test rugby? And of course we're going to three
bleeds rather than two, which means that it's easier for
Australia to winery, so you know, so that's that's that's
a risk as well. Right now, it's really hard for them.
They've got to win. They've got to win both matches
to win the bled. What's been the feedback super rugby
(24:09):
clubs around it.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
They're open to it. Yeah, they're open to it.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
So they're obviously well they're understandably cautiously open to it.
You know, they're really invested in their competition. But they
get it right, Like I mean, they get that there
are merits or there are strong arguments for it. But
in saying that, they also understand I think trust us
to weigh up that with the risks and make the
right decision. So we haven't made any decision on that yet.
(24:34):
Like you say, Len, there's a bit of momentum around,
there's a lot of talk about it. We haven't hid
from that. So yeah, yeah, we are talking about we're
talking about it with rugby Australia, but it's by no
means confirmed. There's still quite a lot of water to
flow under the bridge before before before that comes to reality.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
It's another big old yea for the All Blacks are
incredibly important to drive revenue and maintain the brand and
the success and all those sorts of things. I guess
there's been a lot of fluctuation and change. What is
a successful season look like for the All Blacks from
your perspective, I think there's is it fourteen tests this year,
greatest rivalry tour.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah, it's a big gold year.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
It's a big year. It's a really big year. Of course,
winning is how we measure success, and again we don't
shy away from that, neither to the team. I guess
when we talk about winning too, it's not about having
a better than fifty percent win ratio. Our benchmarker is
the All Blacks historic winning percentage, which is seventy seven percent.
So you put that another way, They've got to win
(25:31):
four out of five tests or the season is not
considered a success. We know that the tour to South Africa,
rugby's greatest rivalry is going to be incredibly tough, right,
like three tests in South Africa. Remember when the All
Blacks won their first series in ninety six, What a
big deal that was. So yeah, that's a hell of
a challenge. So it won't be easy. It won't be easy,
(25:54):
but if I put it really succinctly, winning is how
we measure success. Everything else flows from that.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
It's been obviously a tough few years for New Zealand
in terms of trophies. What do you think of the
key things that New Zealand rugby needs to get right
to The Black fans are standing on top of the podium.
The All Black Sevens winning the Olympic medals. Black Fan
sevens are different conversation because they just win for fun.
But for the All Bass is there are a key
one or two things that all those teams need to
(26:20):
do or the pathways need to be right to get
these teams where they need to be.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, it's it's alignment right.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
So in each of those teams that you talked about,
they all sit at the at the top of a system, right,
they don't sit in isolation, and that includes the sevens teams.
So it's about having systems alignment first and foremost en
suuring that everything is as channeling players through in the
right shape to contribute to those things. Don Tricka, who's
coming back and November, said his job is to ensure
that that the system is producing the players the coaches
(26:50):
want to pick.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Beyond that, it's it's about making good choices and good decisions. Right.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
I'm sure we've got the right people in the right
roles doing the right things. We don't have unlimited resources,
so that you know that means that we have to
make choices, and we have to make the right choice
to enable the teams.
Speaker 5 (27:09):
To win those systems in terms of producing the players.
And then Don Trick are coming back, and we touched
on the retention of that middle tier and the professional realm.
But how fast is the competition, particularly among male boys
in the first fifteen elements. I think I heard recently
(27:30):
that sink Kent's five of their first fifteen of signed
for the league. And then you've got basketball and league
also target players a lot younger, which is a moral
question to a degree, how challenging is that space to
bring those not only produce the players, but then to
hold on to them.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
It is challenging. I won't hide from that. It's challenging
to keep the best talent engaged in rugby and wanting
to go through a rugby pathway. Kids have a lot
of options these days, right, and it's not just other
over ball options. It's basketball, as you say, rowing all
sorts of things right, but not mentioned sport work and
(28:10):
study everything else.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
So it's tough.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
We look and we don't pretend everything's rosy and that
we've got everything right. So one of the big pieces
that we did a couple of years ago was our
Pathways and Competition's Review for men, and that identified that actually,
we haven't got the proposition quite right for young men
in our game in that when they are sitting down
at high school and someone sits in front of them,
be that well, we're sitting here in Orkansas, it's someone
(28:35):
from Auckland and someone from the Blues. That they're not
necessarily hearing exactly the same message from both of them,
and they don't see a clear line of sight through
Auckland Rugby to the Blues, to the All Blacks or
to whatever fulfilling their dreams and potential looks like. So
that's something we've been working on and we've done a
lot of work over the last eighty months about realigning
our pathway, so getting real clarity on what's the remed
(28:57):
of provincial unions. Everything under twenty SIT's with provincial unions.
Now what's the remed of superclubs. One of the things
that review pointed out is that the majority of Super
rugby players eight percent and Super AE players do not
get meaning four minutes in super rugby until they're twenty
four years old, So there's a gap from age twenty
to twenty four where they're not able to play age
grade rugby. They've typically been through a provincial union academy
(29:19):
because they go into that out of school and have
three years in it and they're kind of just waiting
for their time in super rugby, right. So we've addressed
that as well around the development programs that the super
clubs are running with the development comp for super teams
at the early part of the year to give those
players meaningful minutes until they get to the point where
(29:40):
they're going to get those minutes at Super rugby. So
we're doing a lot of work to get our Yeah,
and again and probably everyone says to here, but we're
very much focused on our space and what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
But it's competitive right, So we've got to get that right.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Yeah, absolutely, And the confusion, I guess comes around. You know,
you mentioned the Auckland and the Blues competing, will talking
to the same player, you know with the NURL to
bring the NURL back in and again it's a Melbourne
Storm scout, it's a manly scout. It's not a Queensland
Cup Scout or a new are the top teams so
the players can can see pathways? How do you present
that pathway too? Is the NBC, but the Blues and
(30:15):
then potentially the All Blacks be said to an emerging.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Well and that's exactly that's exactly what the report told us,
is that all the reviewers that we need to do
a better job at it. So that's about ideally having
either one person meeting with them or or having you know,
if you've got in that concept of provincial and a superperson,
having both of them presenting at the same time painting
the same picture. Clear line of site right, because when
you look at it, and look, I'll be honest, when
(30:38):
you look at the NRL, it's really easy to paint
a direct line of site through and so our dream right,
which doesn't always doesn't always play out right, but we
need to be better at actually portraying that clear line
site and delivering on it. And one of the things
that we focus on again, I'll keep coming back to
this in our pathways, and we think it is a
big point of difference is we are very focused on
developing the person, not just the player, so that people
(31:01):
that come through a rugby pathway they'll develop an alternative
career because at some point they're going to need that.
They'll be they'll grow people, they'll get better as rugby players,
but they'll actually it'll be better for them as a
holistic person.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
We've talked a lot about the professional realm. You spend
a long time managing the community game. I know you're
passionate about that. I spend a lot of time at
the grassroots as well. What's your view on the layer
of the land there. I guess this talk about you
know a lot of clubs amalgamating challenges for front rowers.
We've talked about the breadth of options out there for
(31:36):
young people, how do we ensure the grassroots survive? And
what's your view of the current landscape.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
So it's okay, and I don't want to pretend that
it's excellent, because anyone that's involved in the community game
will know from their own experiences that there are issues
and there our challenges, but there are things that we
really think are important marketers of the health of the
game at community level. One is junior participation. So we've
still got really strong junior participation. I check the stats
(32:06):
on the weekend and we're currently sitting nine thousand junior players,
up on last year. Been a bit of a dip
last year, but we're actually comparable with twenty four and
up on twenty three, so that's okay. But we've got
ensure that those kids are having great experiences in rugby
that they want to come back, maybe they boys or girls.
Teenage registrations are also up on last year, so that's okay.
(32:29):
And again, sitting here in Ukland, I know that in
Auckland Secondary School rugby they've got more teams this year
than they had last year, so it's not just playing
numbers as team numbers, which is really important. Market senior
means ruby is down. Senior women's rugby a is still
going from strength to strength. The women's game just keeps growing,
which is awesome. The senior means rugby. You know, that's
(32:49):
slightly down and it's something we are concerned about, is
the health of rugby clubs and senior grades. Because you're
right you talk about earlier front rollers, you know, and
acdotally you only have to go to one club game,
one senior men's game. I know that that's a challenge.
So bringing more front rollers through, but also having more
variants of the game, right, the game's really important for that,
So enabling games to happen if there aren't front rowers,
(33:12):
and then it's a matter of working with the provincial
reunions and the community game because to solve these because
we can't solve everything, right, we can't. It's easy to
point into say what are you guys doing about it?
But some of those things are not things that we
can or should be solving, right. There are things at
our system the people at the coal face need to solve.
And if you go around the country, there will be
common challenges around the country, but the context will be
(33:35):
different everywhey go. You know, the challenge in the metropolitan
city like Auckland or Wellington very different to the context
in Hawk's Bay or Manutu or South. So that the
answers have to reside within within those places and within
their own communities as well, and we will walk alongside them.
We will invest in them to do that, and one
of the things we're fortunate about is that we have
(33:55):
some resources so we can apply those. I come back
to making choices and making the right choices with those resources.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
I just want to go back to the pathways in
the New Zealand under twenties and there's always a bit
of consternation whether the results are good or bad. Yeah,
I watched that this year. I was actually planting the
surprise by the way they played against South Africa. I
don't know what your view is, but I think we
often put a lot of stock in New Zealand under
twenties when this is going to be the last time
they're playing as an age group cohort. But it is
(34:22):
obviously important for us bringing players through. Do you worry
about the results that they've had in recent years and
where that will affect Super Rugby and the All Blacks
and the years to come.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
No, I don't, because every team that we put out
we want to win, but winning isn't the most important
thing for every team we put out, and so the
under twenty is a good example of the team we're
actually what what what we measure is how the players
perform in that environment, how they progress from when they
enter that environment to when they leave it, how they
(34:53):
progress through and into super rugby. So what's the conversion
rate from under twenties to super rugby? And we know
that it also exposes them to tournament play, to playing
against teams from the Northern Hemisphere and from other you know,
or from other other countries, and again this narrative them
and we tend to encounter this narrative thing about rugby
quite regularly, which is like, hey, that's not that team's
(35:14):
not going very well.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
We can't beat South Africa. You know.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
In the last four times they are under twenties have
played South Africa, we've only lost to them once and
we've drawn twice. So it's actually really close. We've beaten
the Ireland more times than we've we've lost to them
in recent years, so you know, the Islands and other
country everyone holds up as a bastion of player development
in the Northern Hemisphere. Well, a track record against theems positive.
So so it's not you know, I just you know,
(35:39):
I'm really key to continue to challenge that narrative or
that perception of our hat it's not working. But actually,
even if we had lost against all those teams every
time we've played them, if those other things were playing out,
we're producing better super rugby players who go on to
be better all blacks and the all Blacks are when
they were cups, then that program's working.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Everyone holds up South there for and what they've been
doing in recent times is it is a key success
and that they dropped to I think seventh in the world.
Severagan YouTube comment is about to correct me, but then
they've gone back any pathways seem to be set up rightly.
How big and how quickly can you make changes around that,
I guess in their programs?
Speaker 2 (36:11):
In your program? Yeah, reasonably quickly.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
I mean, we are a big system, so at times
it feels like you're trying to turn the Titanic around.
But we're a small country and we're pretty connected. So yeah,
if we all agree in the line, and that's why
I said alignments so important earlier, if we all agree
on the line, then we can be pretty agile and
we can move pretty quickly. And again, just kind to
be so careful to let you compare apples with apples. Right,
(36:34):
So South Africa is so different in New Zealand, right, Like,
their participation base is absolutely booming because people of all
colors are playing the game now and the game's been democratized,
if you want to call it that. They've got the
Varsity Cup there, which is another tier between the car
between school and the Curry Cup and Super Rugby. They
(36:56):
play in a different you know, they're playing different competitions,
they played different times of the year, so just got
to be careful not to compare things that are quite different.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Just a couple of final questions. Yeah, so I forget.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
I've talked a bit about playing Windows Rugby Championship potentially
at the start of the year. You've talked about being
more open maybe things or changing in terms of administration.
Is that something that could potentially come back again, The
aligning the international windows.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
It could do.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
It's something that's been talked about at World Rugby a
lot and amongst the unions, the you know, there's a
bit of momentum in the Northern Hemisphere about aligning the
global men's calendar and raally what that means is the
Southern Hemisphere falling into line with the Northern Hemisphere adventure.
So I'm not sure how yeah, how much that means
it's a global calendar as the Northern Hemisphere calendar. But
(37:42):
South Africa have already done that right because the professional
teams are playing in the North, they now play their
Curry Cup over the summer months and it's actually worked
for them, So that's been interesting to observe. What I
would say is that again, we're always really aware of
the potential implications of any change and what that would
(38:03):
mean for us, and so we just want to be
in those conversations as they're happening, don't I don't sense
that change is imminent in that regard, And again it's
a bit like the Anzact bled it's in fact it's
different again, but it's been it's been talked about so
many times in the past that nothing's changed. So yeah,
well we'll just we'll just watch that space and make
sure we're in the tent when the conversations are happening.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
We opened it up for a couple of listener questions.
We've picked a couple.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Jimmy of Auckland says, are there any cost reductions measures
in place to reduce the expenditure outside of players things
like hotels. I guess with the way the world is
at the moment, is that you know costs are obviously rising.
Are you looking at budgets and hotels and airlines and
things like that.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Yeah, we are. We're always looking at that. Again, we
don't want to We don't want to be knee jerk
and reacting to what's happening currently. But cost to travel
is hurting us, like it's hurting anyone that conducts a
business that requires large numbers of people traveling around the world.
So we're certainly tracking that. Our commitment has been as
(39:05):
an organization that we won't we won't spend any more
on budget we travel to at the end of the year.
So that's going to mean working smarter or traveling less.
But for our teams, it's really hard to pull back
on that. They've got to get to where they've got
to play and what we have. We always look for
the best deals and negotiate the best deals we can
around accommodation and food everything, but at the end of
(39:28):
the day, these things are a cost of doing business
for us, and we have to set our teams up
to perform as well, So we've just got to be
careful that we don't we don't compromise ourselves by making
short term decisions.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
And our Aliston James ewell And said he read the
Impact Review stories last year and your comments in the
future of the NPC. He said, it's encouraging to see
confirmation the NBC remains a core part of the rugby system,
but it sounds like there's still a fair bit of
uncertainty around what the practice looks like in the next
few years. So he's got what is New Zealand Rugby's
current view on the structure of the NPC.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
UH, That's that's a really good question, right, and it's
good that he's read the he's read the commentary on
that review. I mean, we put a lot of In fact,
we've put almost all of the recommendations into place now
and we are working through the remaining ones that are outstanding.
So you know, if you understand what the review recommends,
that's exactly where what we're moving to, and we're moving to
that quite quickly. In terms of the NPC, we're not
(40:21):
we're not contemplating any change to that. You know, the
competition model at the moment. It's a good competition. It's
sustainable at the moment. So yeah, we know, we don't
we don't see any change to that at the moment.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Is it played in the right time of the year
or with that Club Rugby.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
That's right, it's played at the right time of the
year because it follows Club Rugby, it proceeds Super Rugby.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You know.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
The challenge with the All Blacks now is know international
rugby has played across such a large part of the
year that it doesn't really matter we put the MPC
in relation to that, but in terms of our system
Club Rugby, MPC, Super Rugby, it does work.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Just finally for me, what are your priorities over so
the next twelve months if we're sitting here in twelve
months time reviewing your first year in charge, what are
you looking at to implement or get right out of
the next next year a year or so?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
So, firstly, the All Blacks and the Black fans are winning.
Our team with our teams and black are winning, but
in particular the All Blacks and the Black fans because
they just drive so much of the rest of the business.
Our community game is in good heart and you know
there are a number of different ways that you might
measure that, but I would like to think that we
are continuing to see strong growth in junior participation, that
(41:27):
we're continuing to build on women and girls participation in
the game, and that we're stabilizing the senior club rugby
thing right, Like, I think the world has changed so
much and the context for senior club rugby has changed
so much that we've got to be careful. We have
rose tinged lenses around what that looks like. But if
we can stabilize that, get to a point where that
(41:49):
has its place and it's working for everyone, that would
be a good outcome. Probably a bit too much to
aim for in twelve months, but it certainly my time
in the role. And then commercially, right, we've just got
to keep growing our value because we're a small country
at the bottom of the world. We love the game.
There are a lot of people involved in the game.
It costs a lot of made for going and the
more money we can generate, then the more money we
(42:12):
can invest in the game.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Steve, appreciate your time on rag gulright, look forward to
catching up again soon.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Thanks Eliott for more from news Talk sed B listen
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Speaker 2 (00:20):
Trucks, Guy.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Tryst Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby
Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Be Welcome into Rugby to Ranks, powered by in Zied Safety,
Blackwoods Safety, therein Boots and or special Wednesday drop of
the podcast for you. Liam and I were joined by
New Zealand Rugby's new Chief executive Steve Lancaster to talk
about a range of issues in the game, from governance
(00:56):
to the pathways system to everything else around super Rugby
that is continuing to cause plenty of discussion. There were
a lot of topics covered as I mentioned, and I
hope you enjoy the chat. We will be back tomorrow
with another edition of Rugby Directs. We'll cover off some
of what Dave Renny had the same in front of
the media yesterday, as well as Sir Graham Henry's appointment
(01:20):
as an All Black selector. But let's get into our
chat with Steve Lancas to hear on Rugby Direct Thanks
as well to our production team, Mark, Kelly Caine, Dicky.
Here's Steve Lancas is Rugby Direct you see on Rugby
Chief Executive Steve Lancas to Welcome to Rugby Direct.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Thanks for joining us, Thanks for having me first time.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
It is absolutely and obviously big news for you in
the last week that you've gone up to the top job.
How how special has that been over the last week
and what's it been like since putting your feet under
the desk.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
It's been very special. I also that it's very humbling,
very exciting. I feel really privileged and really tired at
the moment. So I've never been so overwhelmed with the
volume of emails and text messages. But it's strong encouragement
from my wife to enjoy that while it lasts, because
it probably lasts for a short time.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
But it's been very special.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
But feed back under the test now and we're getting
on with it absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Obviously you did the role interim wise for a few months.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yeah, what did you learn as to what it takes
to run this organization of that period.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I think what I learned was that you have to
be across everything. Don't have the luxury that I have
had in the past of being able to focus on
one lane, be that professional team, high performance or the
community game. But you've got to be across everything that's
happening in terms of the rugby, but also commercially politically
your world, rugby politics, international relationships. So it's just a
(02:49):
breadth of things that you have to be across. It
has been the biggest learning curve for me.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Yeah, there's plenty on your plate from day to day,
week to week. We thought we might start with Super
Rugby and the future of the comp I. Yes, you know,
it's been through lots of iterations over the years and
a wee bit of a state of flux with Moana.
If we sort of start there, what's the leaders you
(03:14):
can tell us about Mowana and their future?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Yeah, well, not much has changed since since the news
broke around the pacifica medical Association's inability to keep operating
that team. So we've been really clear that we won't
be providing a financial solution to that. We're just we're
just not in a position to do so. We've you've
been hugely supportive of that team from its inception. It's
(03:39):
just such a shame that they are where they are
right for everyone involved the players, the staff, fans, partners,
and there are some parties that are working really hard
to find a way to keep that team in the competition.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So we engage with those parties. I can't tell you
who they are right now, but we are working.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
As fast as possible to understand whether they have viable,
feasible business cases for the team, because this isn't just
about getting that team through next year, right We need
to see that team able to stand on its own
too indefinitely. And so that's the bar that's been set
for for those parties.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
They understand that and we will work through that with
them as quickly as possible. What's the runway? Does it
have to be sorted a couple of weeks?
Speaker 4 (04:21):
It's pretty short, Yeah, it is. There's no there's no
deadline on this. And again, we want to do justice
to those people that are trying to keep the team
alive or afloat. And so, you know, we are just
mindful though that in terms of the runway, we need
to make some decisions and some announcements about the competition
next year. That's really important for a whole range of factors.
You know, broadcasters need to know, commercial partners need to know,
(04:42):
players need to know if they're making staff ground decisions.
So we'd like to think that we'll have clearly by
the end of this year's competition, but that's not a deadline,
right that could change.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
It has to remain fluid with super right been is
the competition fit for purpose? You guys love that per well, well,
it is.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
It is fit for purpose, and I'm sure we'll go
there because that's not to say that it doesn't have
its challenges, But for us, it's just two purposes. The
first purpose is that it keeps our best talent playing
in New Zealand for our teams and prepares them for
the All Blacks and then therefore for international competition.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It does that.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
And the second is that it's a thriving commercial property.
And that's a bit where it's probably challenged at the moment,
is that it's really hard for our clubs to be
profitable in any given year. So it certainly is fit
for purpose in terms of the product the pathway that
it's providing through the All Blacks. The bit that we've
(05:41):
got to do some work on is ensuring that the
business model around that is the right one going forward.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Can it be the right, one. Can these clubs make
a profit? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know, everything's possible, right, and
it's just a question of understanding the varying expectations of stakeholds.
We have a different expectation is New Zealand Rugby to
what a private vestor does who's put their own money
into the team. Ultimately, we're all involved because we love
the game, we care about the game, we care about
the product. But you know, the outcomes that we're seeking
(06:11):
might be slightly different as well. So we've just got
to we've got to balance those and find a way
that to ensure that everyone's desires are met over time.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Sup Gram.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Henry mentioned yesterday that we can't keep doing what we're doing,
introducing maybe a wider scope for New Zealand along with
retaining Australia.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Are you open to that idea? Would it work? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
So retaining Australia is critical, that's you know, it probably
goes for ussets are not negotiable for us, Like we
really believe in a transpasm and competition. The Australian market
is a big market and it's probably under access at
the moment for By Rugby and by Super Rugby, So
we think there's real opportunity for growth here in terms
of the competition. It's its profile, it's commercial footprint as well,
(06:54):
but and the vehicles that compete in the competition, Like,
we really do believe in having a small number of
New Zealand team New Zealand based teams or New Zealand
teams that aggregate our best talent and compete in that competition.
So at the moment, you know that we don't see
the need for any change. But look, Graham raised the
point you're starting. I saw that as sort as comments
around you know, maybe you have more more teams in
(07:15):
that company, provincial based teams, like everyone's got opinions on that, right,
that comes up all the time. The one thing I
would say about more teams is that that would raise
some real questions about viability, right, like do we have
the resources in this country financial resource, commercial resources, human
resources to have more than five New Zealand based nz
RT license teams in that competition. I don't know the
(07:38):
answer to that, but I think that would have to
be well tested before we let to more teams.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Rugby's a business, right, and you talk about the commercials
and super rugby and the bottom lines. We had Malcolm
gillies on a few weeks back, and I'm sure you
know he's got some pretty strong views about what could
change if we talk privatization. There is an element of
privatization in the Super Rugby clubs. Does it need to grow,
does it need to expand? And if so, what did that?
(08:06):
What would that mean for play a contracting and all
those sorts of things that are those discussions live? Are
they on the table?
Speaker 4 (08:12):
They are, They're alive and on the table. So Malcolm
voices used and again what a good thing. Has someone
come out saying they want to invest more money, right
and they want to find a way to do that,
and so we certainly welcome that.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
But you know, those are the things that we need
to work.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Through and we are they are live conversations right now.
You know, we're having a lot of conversations about Super Rugby.
Those conversations involve the owners of the clubs, the other
the various shareholders because of course many of them have
provincial union shareholdings as well, and our own people. So yeah,
live conversations and those ones won't be concluded anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I mean they'll be ongoing for probably for the rest
of the year. What about a draft? What are your
thoughts on that.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
Ellie and I have previously discussed things like franchises having
the ability to protect thirty players and then look into
the NPC and promoting that as a recruitment to all
having some form of draft day. Then there's other ideas
around a draft between player movement between New Zealand and Australia.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Where do you sit on that and whether that's a
viable option.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Yeah, I do have an open mind to that. I've
been around long enough to have been in the Super
Rugby model when there was a draft and you know,
the teams were able to protect a certain number of
players I think was in the low twenties back then,
and there was all sorts of tactics about how many
players were protected and who might be left unprotected that
(09:42):
you might be able to secure. And I and I
sat in the war room at Rugby Park with the Crusaders.
Many times we were at a whiteboard and we were
moving names around and strategizing how good if you can
commercialize that too. But you've got to balance that with
what's best for the players, what's on the best interest
of the players. And one of the things we constantly
balance here in New Zealand is ensuring that we've got
the right environment to make New Zealand as an attractive
(10:04):
New Zealand and attractive proposition as possible for our players.
And one thing is Rob Nichol and the Plays Association
being creon for a long time, is that they don't
really favor a draft. I'm not speaking for Rob because
his position may well have changed over time, but certainly
in the previous discussions I've had with Rob, his perspective
on behalf of the players and representing the players is
that they value the ability to make decisions about their lives,
(10:26):
about where they live, where they'll raise their families and
have some certainty about that, rather than be subject to
the woman of a coach's decision on a certain date
of the year and then finding that they've been whisked
off to another city for eight nine months of the year. So,
you know, we just got to balance that and as
I say, for us, the unique challenges that we work
really hard to create environments that keep our players in
(10:49):
the country, and if that's part of the mix, then
that certainly has an influence.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Super rugby this year. It feels to you personally my
personal view in a rugby commentator on a journalist, but
it feels like the quality has been to be honest,
be better than the NRL. But do you feel that
competition breathing down your neck from a New Zealand perspective.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
I have been our set a bit over the last week.
We're aware of how strong the NRL is at the
moment and good on them, right, they've got a great product,
they market it well. But that doesn't mean that rugby
can't be strong. There's there's no no law that says
that for one to be strong, the other has to suffer.
So we're really focused on our competition and as so,
(11:29):
I'm glad he say I think it's a better product.
We think it's a great product. I fact, we know
it's a great product. We're seeing over eight tries a
game and Super Rugby this year that's got that's more
tries a game than any of the other professional competitions
around the rugby competitions around the world, you know, less time,
less downtime due to match official interventions. And again there's
(11:49):
been a bit of chat over the last week about
the attendance and crowd size, and I've just got a
stat today that for the third year in a row,
we're seeing double digit attendance increases across all of the
five Super New Zealand Super franchises. So while I don't
I don't deny hide from the fact that we need
to keep growing attendance, it's actually tracking in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Let's move on two players. There's been, obviously, and there
always is players leaving, but it feels like maybe at
the moment there are more players getting offshore, even flounders
and others that are maybe leaving in their prime. Do
you have concerns that say the middle tier of New
Zealand rugby is being ripped away and more attracted to
Japanese dollars or going over to the United Kingdom and Europe.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Because something that we're always mindful of. I think we
need to be careful that we don't create a perception
that this is a bigger issue than it is right now,
because this is always an issue for New Zealand rugby
right and it will continue to be, not just because
players can earn more money overseas, but because young people
like spread their wings and travel, and rugby players have
(12:53):
some incredible opportunities to do that and go and play
in different environments and experience different cultures, different different teammates
and different communities. So our players are always going to
be moving offshore at some point. I do think also
that when you look at the cycle of World Cups,
you always see quite quite a lot of all black
(13:15):
movement post to World Club. Right, players will commit to
New Zealand through to a World Cup. You have to
be selected, and then they might use the opportunity after
a World Cup to go. So I think this is
just my view that some of that middle tier players
may well be looking at this point in time and saying, actually,
if I had another year the markets, there's going to
be a lot more supply in the market, so this
(13:37):
is a good time to move and capitalize. That's not
to say that we wouldn't like to keep some of
the players you've just mentioned, and we work really had
to do that, which comes back to the draft question, right,
like we look at everything we can do to make
New Zion the place that they want to be.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
If we look at.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Someone like for young and off for twenty three year
old lit up super Rugby this year. So much has
changed from the back end of last year, from when
he signed from Newcastle to now. He's clearly right in
the All Blacks frame and everyone would love to keep him,
maybe even he's leaning towards a change of heart. What's
(14:15):
stopping you from calling up Newcastle and saying, hey, we'd
love to keep this guy, can we can we work
something out?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
We don't really do that, but again, like it's these
are player choices. There's nothing stopping for him from doing that.
But it's not a space that we get into, right
and looking to buy players out of contracts or looking ahead.
And as you say, things have changed a lot for
him since the end of last year and he's taken
every opportunity he has been given. So good on him,
and he's made a decision. If he has a change
(14:45):
of heart, that's that's absolutely out to him. And I
heard Davey the same thing yesterday, right, like the ball
isn't his caught around that? But even if he does
honor his contract to Newcastle, he's still young, he might
he might well be back.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Brodie Rettallic was another name mentioned by it by Dave
Renni yesterday. Clearly there's a keenness on daver Rene's part
to all he's have a potential conversation if the travel
factor with Brodie can be can be sorted. But you
mentioned you're not in the business of going and making conversations.
But would Brody retire to be the kind of player
that you would get on the phone for or do
you just make it on Brody approaching New Zealand Rugby
all the chiefs or Dave Ronnie himself.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
I've got no doubt that coaches are always having conversations
with players, right, And I know Dave's talked to Brady,
But ultimately that again, that's a decision for Brady. We're
not in the business of trawling around the world hitting
players up and trying to get them out of contracts.
Our eligibility policy, our competition model, our contracting framework.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
They do buy in large work for us.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Right, We're gonna have a squad next year is capable
of winning the World Cup. So I mean, on that
measure alone, you'd say the model is working. And so
we're constantly balancing that, right and for a player like Brady's,
so over one hundred tests, he's done his time here
and now he's playing in a different competition, having a
different experience around out his career and happens to be
(16:04):
playing really well at the same time.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Flows well into the next question around eligibility. Look, personally,
I think as soon as you would contract dated and
you started and arrived in the country, you should be
eligible to play for the All Blacks. Can use outline again,
I know you've spoken about this before, but why such
a policy you wouldn't work in the case of say
Richie Woong of this year.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Yeah, it's about the unintended consequences of those decisions. So yeah,
if we were to change or disregard the policy and
say that a player could play offshore, recommit to New
zealand come back and come straight back into the All Blacks,
we believe that the implication of that would be that
would see a significant shift in decision making by players
(16:43):
as to their playing futures and contracting would open the door.
We might then see an exodus of players. Actually, not
just middle tier but top tier players are with players
thinking that they could go ashore back themselves to come
back after three or four years and go straight back
into an All Black team. And what we know is
that the policy as it stands now has been a
factor in the decisions of many players to recommit to
(17:06):
New Zealand, to play in New Zealand in order to
be eligible for the All Blacks. That in turn underpins
the strength of Super Rugby. Strength of the NPC keeps
these heroes in New Zealand visible to young people. So
we have to take a system lends to that. And
I celebrate the fact that we have an All Blacks
coach who has a short term millions and that that
(17:26):
says my job is to win in the era now
and I want the best possible players available. That's absolutely
I'd be disappointed if we didn't have an All Blacks
coach that was saying that to us. We have to
take a more medium to long term view and say, okay,
but how might that play out for our system over time?
And is that in the best interests of the game
or the All Blacks. And so right now we're comfortable
with the policy. Never say never, right, nothing is carved
(17:48):
in stone in this business, but for now we're clear
that the policy works.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I know that your NPC is accomplition close to your
heart and you've spent a lot of years overseeing it.
But with all due respect to the NPC, Davreni's not
going to slick the player straight out of the NPC
for the All Blacks this year. So why do you
make a play like Richie wanting to go back and
play in PC so he can be in the All
Black It feels like a like a box ticking exercise.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Almost.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Yeah, well it's not a box ticking exercise, and it's
not about making Richly play in the NPC. If he
had been back in New Zealand earlier and playing in
Super Rugby, he'd be eligible right now. So it's not
about the NPC. It's about the principle.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Sure, just on the last but one eligibility with Brody.
I think what David was pushing for is that here's
a guy like you say, that's played twelve years for
the Chiefs All Blacks. We've seen around the world work
to various degrees not to others Australia, Wales in terms
of metrics around certain caps or experience, and you can
(18:48):
select a next number from offshore. Do you envision there
being any regular room around that, whether that be next
year or beyond, or do you think like you say,
it's more important to protect the systems.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
It's a hard question to answer because it's to gaze
into the future and say what will happen. I would
never say never, right, We're constantly read value on this,
and as the market evolves and changes, it's possible that
at some point in the future there might be some
change the policy, but it's equally possible that we'll continue
to believe that the policy is right. So if you
(19:25):
look at an example like Brodie, there are just so
many other facts that play. They're all the things we
just talked about. But also, and I'm not just talking
about him, but any play in that situation. They're getting
to an age, get to a stage in their career,
they're playing in a different context. You know, everything around
them is different. There's no guarantee that they'd come back
into the All Blacks and be the player that they were,
the player that we see in another competition either. So
(19:46):
there's just so many things at playing that as I say,
we're not yeah, we're not in the business the saying
we will never change the policy, but we regularly revisit it.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Do you think the eligibility questions over Blonde a little
bit because part from the players on sabbatical longer Fortalic
would probably be the only ones, maybe an Aaron Smith.
In terms of a depth button of making the All
Blacks from abroad. Do you think it's it is overl
line this question.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
I'm going to answer that and the I'm going to
come back to the sabbatical point actually because I'm glad
you've raised that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
No, I don't.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I think it's great because people are talking about rugby
right and people are talking about rugby and the conversations
are making people more interested in rugby.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Fantastic. That's great for us.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
But I'm glad you've raise sabbaticals because I haven't talked
about that, and that's another part of our mixed ride
and that's something that does work for us. Where you know,
right now, Kobe, we've got Ardisavia and Antony Lenett Brown
on sabbaticals. They will be eligible for the All Blex
when they come back without having played Super rugby, and
so that is a really important vehicle for us where
we can work with the players to allow them to
(20:48):
go offshore, earn some good money, experience a different culture,
freshen up a little bit. Scott Barrett is actually not
playing at all, so you know, they don't have to
be playing. But that also allows us to have some
influence over the environment that they go into, right, how
what their load's going to be, like, what sort of
coaching they're going to be subject to. So it's great
days coming back. But the real is when those guys
(21:11):
went to Colbert and sabbatical, he wasn't but we had
a lot of confidence and you know, knowing that Dave
was the head coach to people had around him that
they were going into a good environment, they'd come back
and slop back into the all blacks affairs selected. So yeah,
thanks for raising that. But that's another part of that
mixed for us, right, it's a very complex mix.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Sure, if we look we're talking about eligibility and potential evolution,
if we broadened that out to the all blacks. Hot
topic recently has been that the ANZAC test that's been
on the agenda for a couple of years. Previously he's
a Rugby weren't interested for a whole host of reasons.
That seems to have shifted expectations that that will go
(21:51):
ahead from next year. I guess is what are the
pros and cons as we sit here now that you
see to that fixture, I guess you know the financial
win for impact on super Rugby is a lot of
things to weigh up.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yep, those are two of them. Those are two of
the big ones. So I guess what's you know?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
You're right.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
It's been on Rugby Australia's agenda for a couple of
years now, and there were conversations about it a couple
of years ago where we considered it and just said no,
we just don't think it's right for us right now.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
But things change again. This is a good example of
where things can change.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
We've got new leadership in our business, we've got new
coaching group with the All Blacks, We've got a bit
of a renewed focus on rugby Australia. One of the
things we're really aware of is the strength of rugby
in the North with the Home Unions and six Nations,
and the importance of us being strong in the South
and us being strong in the South starts with New
Zealand and Australia being close and working together as partners.
(22:45):
So we want to support rugby Australia. We know that
they've got a lot of competition in their backyard. So
you know it's hard at times for rugby to gain
real prominence and having an ANZAC bleed for them would
be a real boon for rugby, which would reflect back
to us in terms of some of the benefits. Right,
(23:05):
the raises the profile of rugby, It may raise interest
in Super Pacific. Keepis would go to that as well,
so right so it may be quite appealing to a
lot of people. So we've got an all Blacks coaching
group that are saying, actually, particularly if you look at
next year, hey, there could be some benefit and having
the opportunity to bring the group together earlier in the year.
But the risk of that is the downside of that
is which again with these are things we have to
(23:27):
wig up and what are the commercial considerations around that? Yeah,
it should be financially worthwhile, but how commercial rights shed
across the the two countries. How do we ensure it
works for our partners as well as Rugby Australia's Super
Rugby Pacific. How do we how do we manage the
impact on that because it would be played in the
middle of that competition. We think it can be, but
(23:47):
we've got to work through that. What are the views
of the superclubs, what are the views of the players?
How do they feel about going and playing a week
of test rugby? And of course we're going to three
bleeds rather than two, which means that it's easier for
Australia to winery, so you know, so that's that's that's
a risk as well. Right now, it's really hard for them.
They've got to win. They've got to win both matches
to win the bled. What's been the feedback super rugby
(24:09):
clubs around it.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
They're open to it. Yeah, they're open to it.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
So they're obviously well they're understandably cautiously open to it.
You know, they're really invested in their competition. But they
get it right, Like I mean, they get that there
are merits or there are strong arguments for it. But
in saying that, they also understand I think trust us
to weigh up that with the risks and make the
right decision. So we haven't made any decision on that yet.
(24:34):
Like you say, Len, there's a bit of momentum around,
there's a lot of talk about it. We haven't hid
from that. So yeah, yeah, we are talking about we're
talking about it with rugby Australia, but it's by no
means confirmed. There's still quite a lot of water to
flow under the bridge before before before that comes to reality.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
It's another big old yea for the All Blacks are
incredibly important to drive revenue and maintain the brand and
the success and all those sorts of things. I guess
there's been a lot of fluctuation and change. What is
a successful season look like for the All Blacks from
your perspective, I think there's is it fourteen tests this year,
greatest rivalry tour.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah, it's a big gold year.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
It's a big year. It's a really big year. Of course,
winning is how we measure success, and again we don't
shy away from that, neither to the team. I guess
when we talk about winning too, it's not about having
a better than fifty percent win ratio. Our benchmarker is
the All Blacks historic winning percentage, which is seventy seven percent.
So you put that another way, They've got to win
(25:31):
four out of five tests or the season is not
considered a success. We know that the tour to South Africa,
rugby's greatest rivalry is going to be incredibly tough, right,
like three tests in South Africa. Remember when the All
Blacks won their first series in ninety six, What a
big deal that was. So yeah, that's a hell of
a challenge. So it won't be easy. It won't be easy,
(25:54):
but if I put it really succinctly, winning is how
we measure success. Everything else flows from that.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
It's been obviously a tough few years for New Zealand
in terms of trophies. What do you think of the
key things that New Zealand rugby needs to get right
to The Black fans are standing on top of the podium.
The All Black Sevens winning the Olympic medals. Black Fan
sevens are different conversation because they just win for fun.
But for the All Bass is there are a key
one or two things that all those teams need to
(26:20):
do or the pathways need to be right to get
these teams where they need to be.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, it's it's alignment right.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
So in each of those teams that you talked about,
they all sit at the at the top of a system, right,
they don't sit in isolation, and that includes the sevens teams.
So it's about having systems alignment first and foremost en
suuring that everything is as channeling players through in the
right shape to contribute to those things. Don Tricka, who's
coming back and November, said his job is to ensure
that that the system is producing the players the coaches
(26:50):
want to pick.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Beyond that, it's it's about making good choices and good decisions. Right.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
I'm sure we've got the right people in the right
roles doing the right things. We don't have unlimited resources,
so that you know that means that we have to
make choices, and we have to make the right choice
to enable the teams.
Speaker 5 (27:09):
To win those systems in terms of producing the players.
And then Don Trick are coming back, and we touched
on the retention of that middle tier and the professional realm.
But how fast is the competition, particularly among male boys
in the first fifteen elements. I think I heard recently
(27:30):
that sink Kent's five of their first fifteen of signed
for the league. And then you've got basketball and league
also target players a lot younger, which is a moral
question to a degree, how challenging is that space to
bring those not only produce the players, but then to
hold on to them.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
It is challenging. I won't hide from that. It's challenging
to keep the best talent engaged in rugby and wanting
to go through a rugby pathway. Kids have a lot
of options these days, right, and it's not just other
over ball options. It's basketball, as you say, rowing all
sorts of things right, but not mentioned sport work and
(28:10):
study everything else.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
So it's tough.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
We look and we don't pretend everything's rosy and that
we've got everything right. So one of the big pieces
that we did a couple of years ago was our
Pathways and Competition's Review for men, and that identified that actually,
we haven't got the proposition quite right for young men
in our game in that when they are sitting down
at high school and someone sits in front of them,
be that well, we're sitting here in Orkansas, it's someone
(28:35):
from Auckland and someone from the Blues. That they're not
necessarily hearing exactly the same message from both of them,
and they don't see a clear line of sight through
Auckland Rugby to the Blues, to the All Blacks or
to whatever fulfilling their dreams and potential looks like. So
that's something we've been working on and we've done a
lot of work over the last eighty months about realigning
our pathway, so getting real clarity on what's the remed
(28:57):
of provincial unions. Everything under twenty SIT's with provincial unions.
Now what's the remed of superclubs. One of the things
that review pointed out is that the majority of Super
rugby players eight percent and Super AE players do not
get meaning four minutes in super rugby until they're twenty
four years old, So there's a gap from age twenty
to twenty four where they're not able to play age
grade rugby. They've typically been through a provincial union academy
(29:19):
because they go into that out of school and have
three years in it and they're kind of just waiting
for their time in super rugby, right. So we've addressed
that as well around the development programs that the super
clubs are running with the development comp for super teams
at the early part of the year to give those
players meaningful minutes until they get to the point where
(29:40):
they're going to get those minutes at Super rugby. So
we're doing a lot of work to get our Yeah,
and again and probably everyone says to here, but we're
very much focused on our space and what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
But it's competitive right, So we've got to get that right.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Yeah, absolutely, And the confusion, I guess comes around. You know,
you mentioned the Auckland and the Blues competing, will talking
to the same player, you know with the NURL to
bring the NURL back in and again it's a Melbourne
Storm scout, it's a manly scout. It's not a Queensland
Cup Scout or a new are the top teams so
the players can can see pathways? How do you present
that pathway too? Is the NBC, but the Blues and
(30:15):
then potentially the All Blacks be said to an emerging.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Well and that's exactly that's exactly what the report told us,
is that all the reviewers that we need to do
a better job at it. So that's about ideally having
either one person meeting with them or or having you know,
if you've got in that concept of provincial and a superperson,
having both of them presenting at the same time painting
the same picture. Clear line of site right, because when
you look at it, and look, I'll be honest, when
(30:38):
you look at the NRL, it's really easy to paint
a direct line of site through and so our dream right,
which doesn't always doesn't always play out right, but we
need to be better at actually portraying that clear line
site and delivering on it. And one of the things
that we focus on again, I'll keep coming back to
this in our pathways, and we think it is a
big point of difference is we are very focused on
developing the person, not just the player, so that people
(31:01):
that come through a rugby pathway they'll develop an alternative
career because at some point they're going to need that.
They'll be they'll grow people, they'll get better as rugby players,
but they'll actually it'll be better for them as a
holistic person.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
We've talked a lot about the professional realm. You spend
a long time managing the community game. I know you're
passionate about that. I spend a lot of time at
the grassroots as well. What's your view on the layer
of the land there. I guess this talk about you
know a lot of clubs amalgamating challenges for front rowers.
We've talked about the breadth of options out there for
(31:36):
young people, how do we ensure the grassroots survive? And
what's your view of the current landscape.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
So it's okay, and I don't want to pretend that
it's excellent, because anyone that's involved in the community game
will know from their own experiences that there are issues
and there our challenges, but there are things that we
really think are important marketers of the health of the
game at community level. One is junior participation. So we've
still got really strong junior participation. I check the stats
(32:06):
on the weekend and we're currently sitting nine thousand junior players,
up on last year. Been a bit of a dip
last year, but we're actually comparable with twenty four and
up on twenty three, so that's okay. But we've got
ensure that those kids are having great experiences in rugby
that they want to come back, maybe they boys or girls.
Teenage registrations are also up on last year, so that's okay.
(32:29):
And again, sitting here in Ukland, I know that in
Auckland Secondary School rugby they've got more teams this year
than they had last year, so it's not just playing
numbers as team numbers, which is really important. Market senior
means ruby is down. Senior women's rugby a is still
going from strength to strength. The women's game just keeps growing,
which is awesome. The senior means rugby. You know, that's
(32:49):
slightly down and it's something we are concerned about, is
the health of rugby clubs and senior grades. Because you're
right you talk about earlier front rollers, you know, and
acdotally you only have to go to one club game,
one senior men's game. I know that that's a challenge.
So bringing more front rollers through, but also having more
variants of the game, right, the game's really important for that,
So enabling games to happen if there aren't front rowers,
(33:12):
and then it's a matter of working with the provincial
reunions and the community game because to solve these because
we can't solve everything, right, we can't. It's easy to
point into say what are you guys doing about it?
But some of those things are not things that we
can or should be solving, right. There are things at
our system the people at the coal face need to solve.
And if you go around the country, there will be
common challenges around the country, but the context will be
(33:35):
different everywhey go. You know, the challenge in the metropolitan
city like Auckland or Wellington very different to the context
in Hawk's Bay or Manutu or South. So that the
answers have to reside within within those places and within
their own communities as well, and we will walk alongside them.
We will invest in them to do that, and one
of the things we're fortunate about is that we have
(33:55):
some resources so we can apply those. I come back
to making choices and making the right choices with those resources.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
I just want to go back to the pathways in
the New Zealand under twenties and there's always a bit
of consternation whether the results are good or bad. Yeah,
I watched that this year. I was actually planting the
surprise by the way they played against South Africa. I
don't know what your view is, but I think we
often put a lot of stock in New Zealand under
twenties when this is going to be the last time
they're playing as an age group cohort. But it is
(34:22):
obviously important for us bringing players through. Do you worry
about the results that they've had in recent years and
where that will affect Super Rugby and the All Blacks
and the years to come.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
No, I don't, because every team that we put out
we want to win, but winning isn't the most important
thing for every team we put out, and so the
under twenty is a good example of the team we're
actually what what what we measure is how the players
perform in that environment, how they progress from when they
enter that environment to when they leave it, how they
(34:53):
progress through and into super rugby. So what's the conversion
rate from under twenties to super rugby? And we know
that it also exposes them to tournament play, to playing
against teams from the Northern Hemisphere and from other you know,
or from other other countries, and again this narrative them
and we tend to encounter this narrative thing about rugby
quite regularly, which is like, hey, that's not that team's
(35:14):
not going very well.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
We can't beat South Africa. You know.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
In the last four times they are under twenties have
played South Africa, we've only lost to them once and
we've drawn twice. So it's actually really close. We've beaten
the Ireland more times than we've we've lost to them
in recent years, so you know, the Islands and other
country everyone holds up as a bastion of player development
in the Northern Hemisphere. Well, a track record against theems positive.
So so it's not you know, I just you know,
(35:39):
I'm really key to continue to challenge that narrative or
that perception of our hat it's not working. But actually,
even if we had lost against all those teams every
time we've played them, if those other things were playing out,
we're producing better super rugby players who go on to
be better all blacks and the all Blacks are when
they were cups, then that program's working.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Everyone holds up South there for and what they've been
doing in recent times is it is a key success
and that they dropped to I think seventh in the world.
Severagan YouTube comment is about to correct me, but then
they've gone back any pathways seem to be set up rightly.
How big and how quickly can you make changes around that,
I guess in their programs?
Speaker 2 (36:11):
In your program? Yeah, reasonably quickly.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
I mean, we are a big system, so at times
it feels like you're trying to turn the Titanic around.
But we're a small country and we're pretty connected. So yeah,
if we all agree in the line, and that's why
I said alignments so important earlier, if we all agree
on the line, then we can be pretty agile and
we can move pretty quickly. And again, just kind to
be so careful to let you compare apples with apples. Right,
(36:34):
So South Africa is so different in New Zealand, right, Like,
their participation base is absolutely booming because people of all
colors are playing the game now and the game's been democratized,
if you want to call it that. They've got the
Varsity Cup there, which is another tier between the car
between school and the Curry Cup and Super Rugby. They
(36:56):
play in a different you know, they're playing different competitions,
they played different times of the year, so just got
to be careful not to compare things that are quite different.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Just a couple of final questions. Yeah, so I forget.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
I've talked a bit about playing Windows Rugby Championship potentially
at the start of the year. You've talked about being
more open maybe things or changing in terms of administration.
Is that something that could potentially come back again, The
aligning the international windows.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
It could do.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
It's something that's been talked about at World Rugby a
lot and amongst the unions, the you know, there's a
bit of momentum in the Northern Hemisphere about aligning the
global men's calendar and raally what that means is the
Southern Hemisphere falling into line with the Northern Hemisphere adventure.
So I'm not sure how yeah, how much that means
it's a global calendar as the Northern Hemisphere calendar. But
(37:42):
South Africa have already done that right because the professional
teams are playing in the North, they now play their
Curry Cup over the summer months and it's actually worked
for them, So that's been interesting to observe. What I
would say is that again, we're always really aware of
the potential implications of any change and what that would
(38:03):
mean for us, and so we just want to be
in those conversations as they're happening, don't I don't sense
that change is imminent in that regard, And again it's
a bit like the Anzact bled it's in fact it's
different again, but it's been it's been talked about so
many times in the past that nothing's changed. So yeah,
well we'll just we'll just watch that space and make
sure we're in the tent when the conversations are happening.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
We opened it up for a couple of listener questions.
We've picked a couple.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Jimmy of Auckland says, are there any cost reductions measures
in place to reduce the expenditure outside of players things
like hotels. I guess with the way the world is
at the moment, is that you know costs are obviously rising.
Are you looking at budgets and hotels and airlines and
things like that.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Yeah, we are. We're always looking at that. Again, we
don't want to We don't want to be knee jerk
and reacting to what's happening currently. But cost to travel
is hurting us, like it's hurting anyone that conducts a
business that requires large numbers of people traveling around the world.
So we're certainly tracking that. Our commitment has been as
(39:05):
an organization that we won't we won't spend any more
on budget we travel to at the end of the year.
So that's going to mean working smarter or traveling less.
But for our teams, it's really hard to pull back
on that. They've got to get to where they've got
to play and what we have. We always look for
the best deals and negotiate the best deals we can
around accommodation and food everything, but at the end of
(39:28):
the day, these things are a cost of doing business
for us, and we have to set our teams up
to perform as well, So we've just got to be
careful that we don't we don't compromise ourselves by making
short term decisions.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
And our Aliston James ewell And said he read the
Impact Review stories last year and your comments in the
future of the NPC. He said, it's encouraging to see
confirmation the NBC remains a core part of the rugby system,
but it sounds like there's still a fair bit of
uncertainty around what the practice looks like in the next
few years. So he's got what is New Zealand Rugby's
current view on the structure of the NPC.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
UH, That's that's a really good question, right, and it's
good that he's read the he's read the commentary on
that review. I mean, we put a lot of In fact,
we've put almost all of the recommendations into place now
and we are working through the remaining ones that are outstanding.
So you know, if you understand what the review recommends,
that's exactly where what we're moving to, and we're moving to
that quite quickly. In terms of the NPC, we're not
(40:21):
we're not contemplating any change to that. You know, the
competition model at the moment. It's a good competition. It's
sustainable at the moment. So yeah, we know, we don't
we don't see any change to that at the moment.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Is it played in the right time of the year
or with that Club Rugby.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
That's right, it's played at the right time of the
year because it follows Club Rugby, it proceeds Super Rugby.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You know.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
The challenge with the All Blacks now is know international
rugby has played across such a large part of the
year that it doesn't really matter we put the MPC
in relation to that, but in terms of our system
Club Rugby, MPC, Super Rugby, it does work.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Just finally for me, what are your priorities over so
the next twelve months if we're sitting here in twelve
months time reviewing your first year in charge, what are
you looking at to implement or get right out of
the next next year a year or so?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
So, firstly, the All Blacks and the Black fans are winning.
Our team with our teams and black are winning, but
in particular the All Blacks and the Black fans because
they just drive so much of the rest of the business.
Our community game is in good heart and you know
there are a number of different ways that you might
measure that, but I would like to think that we
are continuing to see strong growth in junior participation, that
(41:27):
we're continuing to build on women and girls participation in
the game, and that we're stabilizing the senior club rugby
thing right, Like, I think the world has changed so
much and the context for senior club rugby has changed
so much that we've got to be careful. We have
rose tinged lenses around what that looks like. But if
we can stabilize that, get to a point where that
(41:49):
has its place and it's working for everyone, that would
be a good outcome. Probably a bit too much to
aim for in twelve months, but it certainly my time
in the role. And then commercially, right, we've just got
to keep growing our value because we're a small country
at the bottom of the world. We love the game.
There are a lot of people involved in the game.
It costs a lot of made for going and the
more money we can generate, then the more money we
(42:12):
can invest in the game.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Steve, appreciate your time on rag gulright, look forward to
catching up again soon.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Thanks Eliott for more from news Talk sed B listen
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