PSM & Refrigeration Trends Reshaping The Industry

In this episode of Safe, Efficient, Profitable, we break down the top three Process Safety Management (PSM) trends we’re seeing across industrial ammonia refrigeration facilities — and why they matter. Episode details below!

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🔹 Trend #1: Vetting PHA Facilitators

As PSM requirements evolve and standards change, many facilities are outsourcing PHAs.  We discuss:

How misunderstanding the intent of PHA questions undermines risk reduction

Why hands-on experience matters 

What to ask before hiring a PHA facilitator

Key takeaway: Vet the person, not just the company.

🔹 Trend #2: Undefined PSM Coordinators.  We discuss:

Many plants are hiring PSM coordinators quickly to keep up with compliance demands — but without clearly defining what decisions they’re qualified to make.

The difference between managing documents and validating safety content

Approval of technical procedures 

When co-signing and oversight are necessary

Key takeaway: Clear role definition protects both the coordinator and the facility.

🔹 Trend #3: The Changing Definition of “Operator” We discuss: 

High turnover has changed what it means to be a trained operator 

Why traditional multi-year training timelines are difficult 

How partial experience from other facilities can create hidden gaps

Key takeaway: Operator capability must be defined, verified, and  reassessed.

🔹 Bonus Discussion: Third-Party Contractors & Hidden Risk:  we discuss:

With more plants relying on contractors for refrigeration operation and PSM tasks, we talk about:

Third-party doesn’t automatically mean qualified

Common red flags 

How contractor labor shortages mirror in-house challenges

Key takeaway: Contractors must be vetted with the same rigor as employees.

Why This Matters

Across all of these trends, one issue keeps surfacing:

PSM is drifting toward paperwork compliance instead of true risk reduction.

Remember to:

Vet people as individuals, not just vendors and contractors

Define competency

Adapt training models to modern workforce realities

How You Can Support the Podcast
👍 Like the video
📌 Subscribe to the channel
🔁 Share with someone responsible for PSM or safety

Your support helps us continue providing real-world, experience-based insights the industry doesn’t always talk about.

Need PSM Support?

We offer:
PHA facilitation and support
Hazmat training (along with other safety training & audits)
Mini compliance audits
PSM coaching and advisory services

👉 Visit Allen-Safety.com  to learn more.

SEO Tags / Keywords

Process Safety Management, PSM trends, PHA best practices, IIAR 9, ammonia refrigeration safety, PSM coordinator responsibilities, operator training challenges, industrial safety compliance, contractor safety risks, ammonia PSM, refrigeration safety training, ammonia, NH3, OSHA, PSM, r717

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hey, uh let's talk about some PSM top three weird
trends.

SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
Okay.
PSM weird trends.
Got it.
Got it.
Here we go.
Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
All right.
Welcome back to the channel.
Today is we try to do thesebased on is it something we've
seen a lot or a new trend?
This is a trend.
Okay.
These are top three trends we'veseen at PSM in the last few
months.

SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
I like how I'm just like, okay, like I don't know.
I'm no part of the topicselection at all.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
So I'll give you an example.
Everyone knows that there'srules been changing and
suggestions of how you do thingsfor PSM.

SPEAKER_01 (00:40):
Yep.
IAR9 has been released and we'vegot to move into compliance
without so a PHA, for example.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
You decide that you're gonna hire somebody to
conduct a PHA.

SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Right now, there's a lot of random versions of a PHA.

SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (00:57):
And that's the first thing.
So it's not PHA like you thoughtfive years ago when you did it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
Which, like some of us did it internal, some of us
did it external when I was atthe plants, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
I mean so that there was a choice, and we're not
doing a very good job of vettingthe third party because we're
thinking, oh, they do PHAs, thisis how we did it five years ago,
and we're kind of redoing theprocess or thinking this is what
we're going to hire, but we'renot asking all the right
questions now, and it's changed.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
Well, I think the situation, in my opinion, my
opinion only, that's going on iswe are hiring company A that
we're familiar with, whatevercompany that is for your region
or whatever that we we use themfor other stuff theoretically.
And that entity now does PHAs,now does PHAs, and they are

(01:48):
recognizing hey, people areasking us for this.
This is something that we canmake money on.
It's in our lane, it'srefrigeration, we can make money
on it or whatever.
And so they are now adding thatservice.
The interesting thing that we'reseeing is the qualifications for
the person doing the PHA are allover the map because they all
they're really doing is readingoff a spreadsheet.

(02:10):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
So the you you apply the computer program, yeah, read
the question, and and I've saidin a bunch of them the last few
months.

SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
Which is something that I never thought was gonna
be part of what we're doing isjust sitting through someone
else's PHA, but not conductingit ourselves, just being there
for support.
Almost to be like, no, that'snot what that question means.
Why did you ask you?
That's not what that questionmeans.
That's not the intent of thequestion.
That is the trend that we'reseeing.

(02:40):
Yeah, we're seeing things getmisconstrued, misinterpreted.

SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
Maybe seven words, but the way they're saying the
seven words and the waydefending the seven words does
not meet the end goal.
And the end goal is reduce risk.

SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Yeah, like the the intent, the the true intention
of why that question is in thereis getting missed.
Yes.
And I think it's because wedon't understand as the person
providing it, uh is the onlything I can come up with that
they don't understand why thequestion's there or what it's
getting at.

SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
I give you one example, and this this is not
every PHA, but it's an example.
Usually PHA has a line item, andthe ideas, there's multiple line
items that say, what if thishappened as in a league?

SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
And what would be the things we do it?
But I've sat on these and I'mlike, well, none of these people
have ever fought a league.
None of these people even go tocurrent hazmat training of any
kind.
So what recommendation are theyreally giving to a plant if
they've never done the part thatthe PHA is supposed to prevent?

SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
So, I mean, let's let's keep in mind process
hazard analysis, right?
Why are we concerned with thehazard?
Oh, because we don't want tohurt a bunch of people and have
a leak.
Like that's the entire point ofwhat we're doing it for.
Sitting in there just grindingout these questions for three
days or two or three days or aweek or however long it takes to
get through it based on theprogram.

(03:56):
So that's that you're doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I guess that's really thequestion is the recommendation
from my side would be let's askwhat the qualifications are for
the actual person that's goingto be.
Not the company, not the PHA.
Yes, not the company.
The person that's going to bestanding next to the computer,
sitting next to the computer,asking the questions, how well

(04:20):
do they know your system?
Because there can be somecontamination and cross stuff
with that too, of Foxwatch inthe hen house.
If you get somebody whoinstalled your system and that's
the person doing it, there'sgood and bad there.
So just be aware of that.
But also, yeah, just making sureyou know what qualifies you to
sit here.
Are you a trained operator?

(04:41):
Do you have a certification ofany kind?
What kind of continued educationare you doing?
And how long you've been doingthis?

unknown (04:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
That's so that's that one.

SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
That's the first one.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (04:52):
Now the next one is totally agree with that.
Yeah.
The next one is that you takesomething like I need somebody
to manage PSM.
Plant A.

SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
Okay.
That like at the plant level,okay.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
That variable is so random right now.
What plant what plant in personis.

SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
Well, that's that's it's random through a lot of our
positions at right now,honestly.

SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
It used to be, you know, you you you were maybe an
operator, your administrator,and you did all these steps, and
now just because of that rightor wrong, it's just reality.

SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
We're trying to find someone to manage the PSM
processes, and so it's like weneed somebody.

SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
But do they have the knowledge to make the decisions
that they're required to decide?
That's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Well, I think the question really needs to be is
what decisions, if we have aconcern about background and
training from the educationpiece, what what are we gonna
allow them to make decisions onuntil we get that caught up?
Correct.
Maybe we need to kind of tailorwhat decision processes they

(05:59):
have abilities to makeindependently, or we get other
people involved to say, well,you you know, uh you can have
some more autonomy maybe later,but we need to, until we get you
caught up, here's thequalifications we have for where
what kind of education we'd likefor this role.
And until we get you there,let's have somebody kind of
helping you and signing off onstuff, co-signing on your

(06:22):
decisions also, not just youindependently.

SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Now, I understand that a PSM coordinator is really
an administrative process,they're managing paperwork, and
I will tell you right now, thispart I'm I'm terrible at
managing computer work, typing,that kind of stuff.
So a PSM is a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
No, no kidding.

SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
But they need to know what they can't do, and
that's where the gap is.
Well, they're the coordinators,so let's mix it, or they
validate, or they review thisprocedure, but they can't review
that procedure if they don'thave the trainer background
you're talking about.
They can they can manage thedocument, they can file the
document, they can track what'sgetting done, but they can't be
validating the document if theydon't have the background.

SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
Well, and that's exactly where I told you.
Whatever, whatever documentthat's where it goes into what
are we going to allow them tosign off on independently.
So they can manage, hey, we needto get 10 SOPs reviewed this
week.
Absolutely.
And they can make sure thatprocess happens.
They just may not be the persondoing it until they get that the
education to allow them to knowwhat they're looking at.

(07:22):
No, is it right or is it wrong?
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Absolutely.
So that's two of the PSMs.

SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
By the way, I'm wearing red hats.
They are we matching.

SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
Yeah, I think so.
That's great.

SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
It's kind of cheesy, but the third.
It's also the Allen Safetycoffee mug.
All right, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
We don't have a sponsor.

SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
No, that's all right.
No sponsors.

SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Go to Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
Allen safety.com if you want some merch.
We got really and truly what Imean this something for
everyone, including a holidaycollection.
So yes.
Check that out as well.

SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
All right.
So now we have the first one,which is PHA.

SPEAKER_01 (07:52):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
And then we have the second one, which is a
coordinator, which are two verybig control points.

SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
Well, I think it is managing the the what they're
going to be responsible forexclusively and and setting some
parameters in place based oneducation level and experience.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
And the third one is what is an operator anymore?
Right.
Because that is so all over themap.
Because it used to be you gothired, you did so many months
job shadowing, and then youmaybe went to some kind of
school.
Yep.
And then you came back and didthese steps.
Now at 14 months, I mean it wasso programmed out over a two or
three year period of what youwere going to do.

(08:29):
And now you work there fourmonths and they're gone.
You're like, okay, but but theywere running the system that
four months.
Yeah.
You got you got to change theway your model is on what really
is an operator.
Because from our side, you say atrained operator must do XYZ.

SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
Yeah.
In my mind, like I can seebecause I had training matrices
based on timelines.
That's right.
Here's what we're going to bedoing.
Yeah, here's what we're going tobe doing month one, month two,
month three, like first sixmonths of hire annually, every
two years, every three years.

SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
Must go to all these training classes.

SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
Had the whole thing outlined because we didn't want
to miss anything.
However, because of the turnoverfactor, we are having to adjust
who can do what because we alsodon't always know who's showing
up today.
I mean, that's reality.
Are they coming today?
We don't know, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
And part of the operator gap is you hire
somebody to fill that position.
Because in really before, youdidn't see a lot of operators
turnover.
Now I go to locations and everyoperator turn over a bunch.
Well, they're coming fromsomewhere else.
So you say, Oh, they have the,but we're not vetting that
knowledge.
And also, you know, you take anoperator who came from plant one
and they only did six skill setsbecause they were only there a

(09:40):
few months.
You hire them as operator.
You can't expect them to do 12,but they can still only do six,
and they haven't even learnedyour system yet.
So really all they can do isthree.
So what you have to do is nowalmost like the coordinator or
anything else, you gotta go backto reset what are we actually
hiring and what are theexpectations?
And then real realistically,what are they can they really do
in the next few months?

SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Well, and in addition to that, it's even
going back to who are they jobshadowing?
Because it may not be somebodyat your plant.
Maybe it's somebody at theplant, the sister plant that you
guys have down the road.
Maybe that's what it looks likebecause there is nobody that's
been there long enough to beable to cover some of these
things, up to and including somejob tasks we're having to

(10:20):
contract out to a third partybecause we don't have anybody
that's been there long enoughfor us to train on that.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
We have entire plans.
The contractors doing all thePSM when it comes to operator
tasks.

SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
The refrigeration management.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So they're doing the rounds,they're doing all the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (10:34):
I've never thought of that 27 years ago when I
started in the industry.
Never thought that it would allbe third party.

SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
Yeah.
And and honestly, so that wouldprobably be the fourth one is
evaluating when do you want tosend people out?
Do you want to send people outor do you want to bring someone
on site to do some of thistraining?
Is that person going to be thirdparty?
Is that person who's doing thetraining gonna be internal from
a sister plane?
Who is gonna be doing thetraining?
Because we've got to alsoevaluate we know, we know, uh we

(11:03):
have a feeling like, are theygonna stay?
Or they like are they committedor are they like just getting by
till the next thing comes along,or they're not really settled?

SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
Here we go.
Is that remember that if you dohire the third party contractor,
they may be having the samelabor pool you have.
That's true.
And just because they send Joeover there doesn't mean he's
qualified.

SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
And with so that's my bonus.
You have to watch that operatorfor the third party because it's
amazing how many people don'tbring a mask or don't bring a
meter or are the experts as asubject, and they don't know how
to do it.
And I'm there for a lot of theseprojects, and I'm like, well,
that's weird.
And for them to know, we've beenthrough all this training, not
that we do all of it every day,but to know if it makes sense

(11:48):
what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 (11:49):
Oh, yeah, we we are trained, we have been trained in
refrigeration, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
So we're trying to figure out is this increasing.

SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
Because I just want to know, yeah, I just want to
know, is it right?
So maybe that's the other thing.
Maybe that's one of the othersolutions is if you've got a
manager, you're confidentthey're gonna say, uh, maybe
send them out to get somerefrigeration training or bring
that that third partycontractor, somebody in so that
it's it's not I'm sending twopeople out, we've got the cost
of the hotels or whatever.
Maybe you bring somebody on siteto train on your systems, your

(12:17):
location, and you get otherpeople in the process to be
trained at the same time.
You can bring more folks in.
So if you do have some turnover,well, there's other people that
have been trained at the sametime with that same knowledge
that are still at the location.
So you don't have that gap untilyou hire the next person.

SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
So that's ours.

SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
Okay, I've got more, but that's fine.
We'll save them for another day.
Trying to keep these two about10 minutes, 15 minutes, a drive
to work, a drive from work,because we know time is short.
Absolutely.
Yeah, so there you go.
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(12:57):
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(13:17):
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(13:40):
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(14:03):
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(14:27):
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