Community opposition isn’t constant. It's dynamic. What communities believe, fear, or support can shift at a moment’s notice.
My latest Scaling Clean guest, Eli Andrews, CEO and Co-Founder of civicIQ, is building a new model for community engagement that treats public sentiment as something to listen to, measure, and respond to over time. civicIQ helps developers gauge community sentiment, counter misinformation, and build genuine local support long before projects reach a planning board.
Here are three big takeaways from our conversation:
🔹 Opposition isn’t static. It changes over time. civicIQ’s data shows that shifts in national narratives can quickly influence what people believe. Developers who assume sentiment is fixed risk missing these changes.
🔹 Invite the community into CapEx-friendly decision-making. Instead of asking communities if they support or oppose a project, civicIQ invites neighbors into the design process – choices like pollinator grasses, buffer zones, or solar grazing.
🔹 AI could help re-ground conversations in shared facts. Eli described early experiments using transparent AI conversations trained on narrow, trusted knowledge bases to help people explore information and question misinformation. The goal isn’t persuasion, it’s what he calls “narrative regrounding.”
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(00:00):
I would just say this oppositionis not a constant.
It's dynamic. Invite these communities in to
participate in the design of these projects.
Magic happens when you invite them in, even the opposition,
and really inviting them in so that these projects aren't
something that are just helicoptering in and happening
(00:20):
to them, but so that they have agency of some sort, that they
feel it, that they're being heard and listened to and
responded to. And this is Scaling Clean, the
podcast for clean economy CE OS investors and the people who
advise them. I'm your host, Melissa Baldwin.
(00:42):
Each show we bring you usable insights from tested leaders
that you can apply to the business of running your
business. Buy in from local communities
can make or break an energy project.
Across the country, developers are encountering social and
political opposition. Misinformation can block
(01:02):
permitting and empower organizedresistance online.
My guest today is Eli Andrews. He's the CEO and Co founder of
Civic IQ, a nonprofit with a newmodel for local community
engagement. Civic IQ helps developers gauge
community sentiment, counter misinformation and build genuine
(01:22):
local support long before clean energy projects reach a planning
board. Eli, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Melissa. It is great to be here.
We're glad to have you. I think this is such a
fascinating topic and I'm excited to dive into this work
with you. First, I want to start by just
having you tell us about your company.
Tell us about Civic IQ and and what you do there.
(01:45):
Yeah, sure. I mean everything we do,
Melissa, starts with listening. And I think that's likely one of
the differentiators in in the space is our first job whenever
we're going into a community is to listen to what people have to
say. And we do that a lot of
different ways, but all digitally, all on SMS and e-mail
(02:06):
and social media. And based on what people are
telling us, it, it helps us, it helps us share with the broader
stakeholders, you know, for a renewable energy development,
what that community might want or need or not want in terms of
(02:27):
developing utility scale renewable energy.
So that's what we do. And, and you know, sometimes
that is in the flavour of going out with some like CapEx
friendly questions to the community for input on like, so,
hey, there's this proposed solarfarm in your community.
If you could choose between the following, like planning some
(02:47):
pollinator grasses underneath the, the panels or, you know,
increasing the buffer zone for on the property line between the
property line and, and the panels or solar grazing, things
like that. What would you prefer?
And what we found is that when we go out asking questions like
that, not only do we provide education in the form of the
(03:09):
questions themselves, but the community feels invited into the
process. And so it kind of just reframes
the entire conversation beyond. Do you support?
Are you against? Ask you what makes this model
different than say, like traditional polling that a
developer might do when they go into a community?
(03:29):
How is this approach different? It's a great question.
These are conversations. They're not static one off
surveys. So there are surveys within what
we do, but the conversations we have with folks develops over
time. And so in that way also we're
able to when we're listening to what people say in the
community, for example, and there are really clear trends of
(03:52):
misinformation about a particular issue, for example,
maybe that solar panels cause cancer or something like that.
We then if it's appropriate and in partnership with, you know,
our stakeholders, we will go outand provide just high quality
facts and information to try to reground communities in a shared
set of facts. So it's not only listening, it's
(04:14):
really a two way conversation that takes place over time.
And I'm curious too. I want to understand the
messenger, right? I know that the message matters,
but the messenger matters as well.
So when you go in and have theseconversations, who is the
messenger? We've had the great fortune of
being able to read incredible research that's been done on
(04:35):
this, some of it by your firm, you know, others by partners we
work with like World Climate Partnership, where they're
really listening to people and looking to understand the kinds
of the kinds of personas and people that they listen to in
their community. So, you know, of course, farmers
and, and ranchers, you know, andveterans and, you know, school
(04:58):
superintendents and, and people like that are, are really
important as messengers. And so one of our approaches
when we go out with a story thatis meant to, you know, combat
misinformation, one of the ways that we do that is we don't say,
hey, this is the truth. We go out and have someone tell
their story, you know, so we we're not telling, you know, our
(05:19):
stories. Civic IQ, you know, or one of
our brands, but it's, it's actually bringing that rancher
or that veteran, you know, and interviewing them and telling
their story either in images andtext or, or in video.
One of the things I always like to ask our guest is, hey, you're
ACEO now. How did you get to where you are
(05:41):
today? What was that journey for you?
I am a founder by nature. I'm, it's, it's in my, I swear
it's like wired into my genetic code or something.
I look out in the world and I see things that can be fixed and
I want to build an organization around a solution or I see a gap
and I want to create a solution for it and create value.
And for me, that's always, you know, mission driven.
(06:02):
That's, that's just my orientation.
But that part of my journey to becoming ACEO is innate.
However, I actually had to learnhow to become a strategic
leader. That was a, a disciplined effort
and involved a whole bunch of mentors and a whole bunch of
study and a whole bunch of practice and a whole bunch of
(06:23):
making mistakes. So I really in that sense, I
learned how to be Ceoi think I'ma founder by nature and ACEO by
discipline and by study. Just for some examples of what I
mean by that, you know, when I was a young Ceoi, you know, I
thought it was really important to surround myself with people
(06:44):
who are really loyal to me. And I had to learn that it is so
much more valuable to be surrounded by multiple
perspectives and people who are ready and willing and able to
speak up. You know, because steel sharpens
steel. And so that was that was
learned. You know, that was not innate,
as with so many other aspects ofthat.
(07:08):
You mentioned mentors. Can you recall any specific
mentors and anything that they taught you that you want to
share with our audience? Yeah, I'm really excited to
actually share about one of those mentors because that's it
was on my mind when I was sayingthat.
His name is Al Vasiri. He actually is a retired
professor at Penn State and he taught this capstone course in
(07:29):
strategic leadership. And I was tapped a few years
back at Penn State to bring sustainability as an approach to
strategic leadership and actually take over his, his
class. And, and I wasn't sure at the
time, but my first, the first thing I did was I said, Hey,
(07:51):
could I take your class before Iagree to that?
And so I took AL's class and, and my goodness, it was one of
the most humbling things I ever did.
I had to kind of slowly let go of so many things that I know or
think I know about strategy and leadership and justice, immerse
myself and someone who had dedicated their whole life to
(08:12):
the discipline of understanding this.
And so I had the the great fortune to take his class and
then agree to step in and bring some of the learnings from our
industry, from the clean energy industry into that graduate
course. And it's just so wonderful.
You know right now that course is a blend of everything that is
the legacy that Al gave me, along with insights from our
(08:34):
work on the clean energy transition.
You mentioned you had to unlearnthings.
Can you think of something specific that kind of got
flipped on its head for you? Oh, yeah, totally.
So first of all, my instinctually, when there is a
problem, when there's a fire burning, I'm, I want to just
tactically dive in and go solve it and go fix it.
(08:56):
And then the problem, of course,when that's your instinct is
that by the time you're halfway done putting out one fire,
another one pops up over here and over there and over there.
And so one of the things I learned is that even within the
heat of tactical firefighting, just how to pause, you know,
lift my head up, scan the horizon, understand where we're
(09:17):
going, align team, make sure we're clear on goals before
jumping back in. And then ideally, you know, not
jumping back into that tactical mode.
You made a great point about tactical firefighting and what
your mentor taught you there. I'm curious, that course that
you mentioned, is that availableto the public or is that only
for grad students? It's a good question.
(09:38):
A lot of people take it. The course that I'm teaching now
is called BA 865. You can go find it on Penn
State. It's a, it's the capstone course
in a program, a master's programcalled the Strategic Management
and Executive Leadership. But other people enroll in it
like certificates. So it may be available just as a
(09:58):
one off. All right, so let's pretend that
a time machine is invented and you can go back in time and to
the point where you started thiscompany.
What advice would you give your younger self?
Push power outward and downward.I mean, like harness wisdom from
everywhere on, on your team and especially don't become a
(10:25):
problem solver because as much as, and this was hard for me
because my, my nature is to see a problem and want to go fix it.
And so there's, there's so many problems with that as as a
leader, like when you, when you do that, you actually disempower
your team. You actually create a dependency
on yourself as a problem solver.And then that, you know, of
course, prevents you from doing the work that is critical, which
(10:46):
is that strategic leadership perspective of stepping,
stepping back and building, building the business for the
future and analyzing where things are AT.
And it leads the team to become stronger.
Because if you don't let people succeed on their own and fail on
their own and do it over and over, you're actually taking
away an opportunity for them to learn and grow.
And so that's why it's counterintuitive, but it's one
(11:10):
of those simple counterintuitivethings that make so much sense
and that require require us to step back back and just
intentionally, intentionally implement the practice.
So you mentioned social trends just now.
I want to talk more about that. I want to talk about community
engagement and specifically how attitudes towards renewables
(11:31):
have changed in recent years. So you've been following this
closely. What have you noticed in some of
the data and the conversations that you're looking at?
The easiest one to to point out is just pre and post
presidential election in in 2024.
In this current administration, there was a market shift in what
(11:53):
people were talking about. And also in So we do
quantitative analysis too, of like the percent of people who
support or oppose on the fence to, you know, solar wind,
battery storage. And given a given place, that
percentage of opposition increased dramatically between,
you know, pre November 2024 and post November 2024.
(12:17):
And interestingly, perhaps not surprisingly, many of the things
that are shared and spoken and repeated by people are
repeating, you know, what our president says.
And unfortunately, much of that is misinformation.
And so, so the prevalence of misinformation has increased.
(12:40):
And I don't know that that's thecause, but I just see the
verbatim responses from from people.
And so that has that has changed.
And then of course, along with some of the, the policies around
that, although even if the policies aren't necessarily
impacting the local development as much as as many people think,
(13:01):
the narrative is and the dialogue and the things that
people are talking about are very much impacted by those kind
of by that national noise is what I would call it.
I think what we do in our work in the, in the sighting and
communication sphere is really about signal and really about
connecting with people and understanding and communicating
value. But the noise broke through.
(13:24):
That was what I would say in 2024-2025, and it impacted both
the kind of how much support there was in a given community
and what people were talking about and what kinds of
misinformation is trending. As well, on that topic, what are
the most common misconceptions that you see out there driving
(13:45):
opposition? I'll share what's the most
common one that I think is the most challenging one as well,
because it's rooted partially and misinformation, but it's
more just rooted in conservativeand, and rural values.
And that's the, the, the sense that people have that they're
giving up farmland to make way for, for utilities scales, solar
(14:08):
and wind and, and battery storage.
And that one I think is the mostimportant one to, to focus on
'cause it's really authentic. It, it, its core is on genuine
concern that people have about their way of life, about their
identity, about the place they live, about how the place they
live looks about, you know, how they're, how they're, you know,
(14:30):
dad and mom and grandma grew up and, and it's about those things
which are very real. And, and so that one to me is
the most important one. One, because it's the most
prevalent point of opposition that we find when we're
listening to people. And two, because a lot of times
what we find is that part of thereason that people have that
(14:53):
sense is that they haven't been exposed to things like
pollinator grasses planted underneath the, the, the, the
solar arrays. So something like that, even
just as simple as an image or short video of that can actually
just show people how farmland and utility scale solar can
(15:14):
coexist at the same time. You know, for us, that starts
with listening and then asking people these questions that are,
you know, questions that educateat the same time.
Like what if we were to plant this and this is what it looks
like, you know, plant the pollinator grasses and and you
know, we found and then we get someone you talked about
messengers, a messenger for that.
One I like is the neighboring farmer whose crop yields
(15:36):
increase because those pollinators were planted
underneath. So it's about the community and
creating this like ecosystem around utility scale, you know,
solar, wind, battery storage, creating an ecosystem.
So that for me, and this is whatinspires me, this vision of this
industry as this force that comes in, this transformative
(15:57):
force that can come in and create new value and re enrich
the soil and increase crop yields and bring money into
these communities, both in community benefit agreements and
in, like I said, the, the, the crop yields and, and the jobs
and, and all of those pieces. So that as a transformative
force, when it's done well and when it's done right.
(16:20):
And of course, it's not always done well and right, which is a
challenge that we need to work on as communicators, with the
industry, with developers as well, because they want to do it
right. Sometimes they just don't know
how. Yeah.
And especially with agravoltaics, as I understand
it, not every site is ideal for,you know, sheep or grazing or
pollinator gardens. But we've noticed the same trend
(16:43):
that you talked about that what this, this feeling that a part
of their identity is at risk andgiving up this farmland.
And, and we also notice the samething that in communicating that
these two things can coexist. You can, you can move the needle
a little bit. I guess my question for you is,
(17:04):
do you see the needle move when you do that, when you show them
the images or can you say a little bit more about that?
Oh yeah. When it comes to things like
that, we don't, we don't guess about the needle.
We go out and test rigorously. So when I mentioned the five
second video of pollinator grasses under solar arrays, I
mentioned that because that's that is an experiment that we
(17:25):
ran very intentionally with super rigorous data analytics
with a control group and a treatment group.
So what we were testing there isdoes this image change how
people respond to the statement?You know, to what degree do you
agree with the statement that, you know, farmland and solar
panels are incompatible, right? And they so along that scale, we
(17:49):
showed people this video and whole bunch of others, right?
And then some people, none. And that particular video
literally moved the needle. Nice, nice.
Is there anything that was really surprising that you found
when you were listening to thesecommunities, or anything
surprising that you learned fromyour research?
I, I'm going to share something that I find very surprising and
(18:10):
it's, it's, it's actually impacting how we're thinking
about what we call narrative regrounding and it's going to
get us into a discussion about artificial intelligence.
But so the, the research that I found just so kind of shocking
and delighting in a way was someresearch that I came across out
(18:34):
of, you know, MIT and a number of other, you know, American
universities. This was about conspiracy
theories. And what they did is they found
recruited a whole bunch of people who are entrenched in a
broad range of conspiracy theories.
I mean, like from flat earthers to, you know, COVID vaccine
conspiracy theories, a whole bigbroad range.
(18:56):
What they did is they had these people sit in dialogue with a
large language model, you know, with a basically a version of
ChatGPT and they found that through sustained a pretty short
but sustained conversation, about 20% of people who were
entrenched in conspiracy theories got disentangled from
(19:19):
them. That rate 20% I found just
phenomenal. And we work really hard to move
the needle 20% on anything we doas as you know Melissa.
So what we did is we went and started building artificial
intelligence agents that were fully trained on a very narrow,
(19:42):
narrow knowledge base. So they were trained up on a
very narrow knowledge base aboutclean energy and about facts.
And every single fact was sourced with something very
trustworthy and recognizable by people.
So like USA TODAY article or something like that.
So we meticulously created a knowledge base and built an
(20:03):
agent around it to go and interact with people.
Because I was curious, could we do the same thing for
misinformation about wind and solar and battery storage?
And the short answer is that we can and.
It's we're still trying to understand why that is, but
(20:25):
people engaging with kind of a adisembodied machine who just
kind of has facts, but it's still conversational, seems to
be more impactful than person toperson conversations in this
particular context when people are rooted in misinformation or
conspiracy theories. And so we are, we are right now
(20:49):
engaging folks, particularly theopposition people who are posed
and engaged in in some kind of misinformation about wind,
solar, battery storage to have aconversation and draw their own
conclusions. And I'll just say that the
initial results are, are promising.
(21:10):
And our approach to this is not persuasion.
We're not trying to persuade anyone or convince anyone of, of
anything. Our approach to this is
something we call narrative regrounding.
The idea is like, what if we could simply reground some
communities, perhaps even our country, Melissa, in a shared
set of facts about something that matters, you know, So
(21:32):
that's, that's what we're excited to explore.
We're still testing this, like anything, we're not going to
bring this, you know, out of thelab until we know.
And we're also very transparent with people.
The first thing that says is I'man AI agent and I'm going to
have a conversation with you. It sounds like you think about
this. So it's very conversational, but
it's very transparent that people are talking to an AI
(21:53):
agent. I'll be curious as you do this
research to see if you get a, a solid direction on the types of
credible, trustworthy messengersthat perform the best in this
work. Like is it the USA TODAY
article? Is it a professor at this
university? Is there a local university
connection that matters more? And so I'd be really excited to
(22:17):
learn more about that when you have the information.
Excellent. Well, good.
So we talked a little bit about AII want to continue that
conversation in a new light, though.
We want to talk about marketing communications, which is this is
what we do at Tiger Com. We're at marketing
communications and PR. But my question for you is, what
is your Civic Iqs toughest marketing communication
(22:38):
challenge that you're facing right now?
Well, I'll give you, I'll give you 2, two answers to that.
One is an answer that I'm reallyexcited about because we're,
we're in the early stages of working with a new client and
this is a new client in a totally different space and that
(22:58):
space is carbon capture and storage.
Then it turns out that they havemany of the same challenges and
concerns, not identical, but many of the same challenges and,
and concerns that that we have with, with solar and, and wind
and and battery storage in that,that it's community opposition
that is shutting them down. So that I would say is a
(23:22):
marketing challenge like and I don't know what the story is
there. No, that's a great, great
question. I think it really does depend on
the company, the community, the location, their history, what
have they've been doing there before?
What is their knowledge of this?Is there any economic benefit
that it's bringing so? Yeah, but yeah, the second, the
(23:46):
second marketing challenge is a little, a little closer to home.
You know, what we do at Civic IQis like, so it's so geeked out.
It's so rooted in data and data analytics and all of this stuff.
And and I love all the data and stuff.
I find sometimes that actually just having this crisp, concise,
kind of like marketing friendly version of what we do is a
(24:10):
constant challenge. I'm I'm thinking about because I
don't want to make it seem, you know, less nuanced and complex
than it is than it is. But I also want to really
communicate what, what the valueis in a way that people
understand that what we do is very is very different than than
traditional, you know, surveyingand it's very different than
traditional calms. And we, you know, we, you know,
(24:31):
we segment our audiences. So we never send the same
message to any group. We've got our supporters, we've
got our opposition, we've got onthe fence and we've got
different gradations within there.
And depending on where you are, you get a unique message and
experience with us. So it's complicated in some
ways. And the other sense, it's
simple. So that I would say is a is
another marketing challenge that's occupying my mind these
(24:53):
days. Is, is how do we, you know, how
do we communicate about that unique value in a way that shows
how simple and powerful it is and without, you know, throwing
under the bus, how it's rooted in, in nuanced and complex data.
Yeah. Oh, that's a great question.
I my top of the line response for you would be one of the
(25:15):
things that I noticed. I just, I recently did an audit
of the top 100 clean tech companies and I was looking at
them for actually to see what AIknows about them because SEO is
being replaced by AI search and in a, in a big way and quickly.
And for these large language models, when they go out and do
their training, they create a memory.
(25:35):
And so the memory is static. It doesn't change.
And it's only when you tell AI to do a live search that it will
find differentiators for your company.
And one of the things I noticed in this research was that a lot
of companies are so obscure in using buzzwords to describe
themselves that it's really hardfor people and for machines to
(25:56):
differentiate who they are. Like every company in the energy
transition is, you know, pursuing a clean energy
transition, everybody is, you know, bringing power to people
who need it. And so my advice is to be really
specific if you can. And, and the other piece of
advice is to who you are, what you do, how you're different.
(26:17):
Those are the key, you know, pillars of your key messaging,
but not being afraid to quantifywith data that difference and,
and something that is specific and measurable.
That's another really helpful way that companies can stand out
from the crowd, use specific data, but also tell a story.
That's the other way that we seethat people can really connect.
(26:38):
So I want to continue here. The next section of our
interview is on learning and development.
You mentioned the professor thatwas your mentor, but you know,
are there any books or podcasts that you would recommend to our
listeners? Oh yeah.
If anyone hasn't come across Reimagining Capitalism in a
World on Fire by Rebecca Henderson, masterful many
(27:01):
stories and examples of incredible transformations.
We're talking like transformations like how Dong
Danish oil and natural gas became or stead.
And not all, of course, about clean energy, but just great
research chock full of stories about companies who have
(27:23):
reimagined what it means to do business and how to do business
and how to replace old moving systems with newer technology
and better ways forward that don't kind of destroy our world
and our capacity to thrive in italong the way.
So it's just a masterful collection of stories about that
(27:46):
in terms of a podcast. So I am in and from the very
early days and pre ChatGPT of then a student of artificial
intelligence. And I believe that we are on the
brink of, you know, industrial revolution scale change in a
much shorter time frame. There's a podcast that has an
(28:08):
overview of the kind of the history of the development of of
artificial intelligence. It's called The Last Invention.
It's by Longview Media. It is.
I think it's a must listen for anyone who hasn't had the chance
to be exposed to kind of the history of how artificial
intelligence developed and then the recent history of the
(28:31):
breakthroughs that have led to where we're at now.
And it's great because their messengers and this are the
people who built it, their new concerns.
And now that it's actually working, you know, and so it's,
I think it only has about 7 or 8episodes, but it's just
phenomenal for anyone who who, who wants to, yeah, kind of hear
(28:53):
that history and see, see what we might be on the brink.
Of those are great recommendations.
Thank you, Eli. My next question, this is a
simple question. Do you think that success relies
upon what a company chooses to do or what they choose not to
do? I believe that success,
(29:15):
particularly within a strategic leadership framework, is the
challenge of maintaining the current business that we have
while building the business of the future.
And how much attention to give to doing things the way they are
and keeping the lights on now. And how much attention to give
(29:38):
to the business of the future that we know we're going to have
to build in order to remain relevant as the world changes.
Because if you just keep doing what you've always been doing,
sooner or later you're going to,you know, become extinct because
the world's going to change without you.
So as a leader, just navigating the tension between those two
(29:58):
two points to how to keep the current business going while
building the business of the future.
What What about performance and well-being?
Is there anything that you do atwork or in your personal life to
maintain your ability to performas ACEO on a daily basis?
I do I about three to four days a week when the world doesn't
(30:24):
interfere in other ways. I get up at 5:00 in the morning
and before I even look at a cup of coffee or a cup of tea, I go
down and put on a weight vest and do a super intense, like 20
to 30 minute workout. And then I have a kind of
contemplative time of, you know,reflection, prayer.
(30:44):
And then I read, I study, I I gofind a new book, I go find a new
podcast, and then I do my most important strategic work.
And when I do that, which is many days of the week, I've
gotten the things that I care most about done way before my
(31:04):
first call ever starts. Because once my calls start,
it's kind of too late. Yeah.
Then then it's then we're all, you know, in the weeds as we
have to be. You know what I mean?
I also have such a robust familylife.
I have a 15 year old daughter who I adore and, and my wife.
And so I I stopped working for the most part, you know, by 5
(31:26):
good. For you.
So there's, you know, sometimes there, there's things I have to
deal with, but I, I am pretty, pretty good about that.
My final question, is there anything else that you'd like to
share with our listeners that wehaven't talked about already?
I would just say this oppositionis not a constant.
It's dynamic and at the same advice I gave to my myself of
(31:48):
pushing power outward and and downward and harnessing insights
from everywhere. I believe applies in this
context in the way I I mean thatinvite these communities in to
participate in the design of these projects.
Magic happens when you invite them in, even the opposition and
(32:10):
really inviting them in so that these projects aren't something
that are just helicoptering in and happening to them, but so
that they have agency of some sort, that they feel it, that
they're being heard and listenedto and responded to even on the,
especially on the design and early side of it.
(32:31):
That's a great point, Eli. And I just, I'm going to play
pretend that I'm a skeptical developer and ask you the
question like, hey, but wouldn'tthat cost too much?
Or is it impossible to make themhappy?
Like, what is your response to adeveloper who's heard this?
But maybe they don't think it's realistic or achievable to do
what you're saying. Yeah.
Well, I'd say just you're, you're really strategic about
(32:53):
the way you do that in Capec friendly ways.
Like you don't go and promise tolike only build on, you know,
rooftops and things that can't be done.
You go out and do things, but you know, you can do like it's
an area where you know, you can plant pollinator grasses and you
know that you have budget, you know, in this project to be able
to do that. So it's, it's very strategic as
(33:13):
well that it's not an open-ended.
I mean, yes, you ask open-ended questions, but you combine that
and that's why it requires partnership with developers as
well to to know what can be done, what there is budget for
and then invite the input in on,you know, CapEx friendly design
changes that can benefit from community input.
(33:35):
Terrific. This has been so fun, Eli.
I've really enjoyed getting to know you better and learning
about your technology. Thank you so much for being on
the show. It's been a pleasure.
Thanks for joining us for another episode of Scaling
Clean, the podcast for clean economies, CEOs, investors, and
the people who advise them. I'm your host, Melissa Baldwin.
(33:56):
Our producer is Claire Quirin. If you like what you hear on
scale and clean episodes, we'd appreciate it if you'd give us a
five star rating and leave a comment where you get your
podcast. And until next time, we wish you
all the best in the clean economy transition.
I would just say this oppositionis not a constant.
It's dynamic. Invite these communities in to
participate in the design of these projects.
Magic happens when you invite them in, even the opposition,
and really inviting them in so that these projects aren't
something that are just helicoptering in and happening
(00:20):
to them, but so that they have agency of some sort, that they
feel it, that they're being heard and listened to and
responded to. And this is Scaling Clean, the
podcast for clean economy CE OS investors and the people who
advise them. I'm your host, Melissa Baldwin.
(00:42):
Each show we bring you usable insights from tested leaders
that you can apply to the business of running your
business. Buy in from local communities
can make or break an energy project.
Across the country, developers are encountering social and
political opposition. Misinformation can block
(01:02):
permitting and empower organizedresistance online.
My guest today is Eli Andrews. He's the CEO and Co founder of
Civic IQ, a nonprofit with a newmodel for local community
engagement. Civic IQ helps developers gauge
community sentiment, counter misinformation and build genuine
(01:22):
local support long before clean energy projects reach a planning
board. Eli, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Melissa. It is great to be here.
We're glad to have you. I think this is such a
fascinating topic and I'm excited to dive into this work
with you. First, I want to start by just
having you tell us about your company.
Tell us about Civic IQ and and what you do there.
(01:45):
Yeah, sure. I mean everything we do,
Melissa, starts with listening. And I think that's likely one of
the differentiators in in the space is our first job whenever
we're going into a community is to listen to what people have to
say. And we do that a lot of
different ways, but all digitally, all on SMS and e-mail
(02:06):
and social media. And based on what people are
telling us, it, it helps us, it helps us share with the broader
stakeholders, you know, for a renewable energy development,
what that community might want or need or not want in terms of
(02:27):
developing utility scale renewable energy.
So that's what we do. And, and you know, sometimes
that is in the flavour of going out with some like CapEx
friendly questions to the community for input on like, so,
hey, there's this proposed solarfarm in your community.
If you could choose between the following, like planning some
(02:47):
pollinator grasses underneath the, the panels or, you know,
increasing the buffer zone for on the property line between the
property line and, and the panels or solar grazing, things
like that. What would you prefer?
And what we found is that when we go out asking questions like
that, not only do we provide education in the form of the
(03:09):
questions themselves, but the community feels invited into the
process. And so it kind of just reframes
the entire conversation beyond. Do you support?
Are you against? Ask you what makes this model
different than say, like traditional polling that a
developer might do when they go into a community?
(03:29):
How is this approach different? It's a great question.
These are conversations. They're not static one off
surveys. So there are surveys within what
we do, but the conversations we have with folks develops over
time. And so in that way also we're
able to when we're listening to what people say in the
community, for example, and there are really clear trends of
(03:52):
misinformation about a particular issue, for example,
maybe that solar panels cause cancer or something like that.
We then if it's appropriate and in partnership with, you know,
our stakeholders, we will go outand provide just high quality
facts and information to try to reground communities in a shared
set of facts. So it's not only listening, it's
(04:14):
really a two way conversation that takes place over time.
And I'm curious too. I want to understand the
messenger, right? I know that the message matters,
but the messenger matters as well.
So when you go in and have theseconversations, who is the
messenger? We've had the great fortune of
being able to read incredible research that's been done on
(04:35):
this, some of it by your firm, you know, others by partners we
work with like World Climate Partnership, where they're
really listening to people and looking to understand the kinds
of the kinds of personas and people that they listen to in
their community. So, you know, of course, farmers
and, and ranchers, you know, andveterans and, you know, school
(04:58):
superintendents and, and people like that are, are really
important as messengers. And so one of our approaches
when we go out with a story thatis meant to, you know, combat
misinformation, one of the ways that we do that is we don't say,
hey, this is the truth. We go out and have someone tell
their story, you know, so we we're not telling, you know, our
(05:19):
stories. Civic IQ, you know, or one of
our brands, but it's, it's actually bringing that rancher
or that veteran, you know, and interviewing them and telling
their story either in images andtext or, or in video.
One of the things I always like to ask our guest is, hey, you're
ACEO now. How did you get to where you are
(05:41):
today? What was that journey for you?
I am a founder by nature. I'm, it's, it's in my, I swear
it's like wired into my genetic code or something.
I look out in the world and I see things that can be fixed and
I want to build an organization around a solution or I see a gap
and I want to create a solution for it and create value.
And for me, that's always, you know, mission driven.
(06:02):
That's, that's just my orientation.
But that part of my journey to becoming ACEO is innate.
However, I actually had to learnhow to become a strategic
leader. That was a, a disciplined effort
and involved a whole bunch of mentors and a whole bunch of
study and a whole bunch of practice and a whole bunch of
(06:23):
making mistakes. So I really in that sense, I
learned how to be Ceoi think I'ma founder by nature and ACEO by
discipline and by study. Just for some examples of what I
mean by that, you know, when I was a young Ceoi, you know, I
thought it was really important to surround myself with people
(06:44):
who are really loyal to me. And I had to learn that it is so
much more valuable to be surrounded by multiple
perspectives and people who are ready and willing and able to
speak up. You know, because steel sharpens
steel. And so that was that was
learned. You know, that was not innate,
as with so many other aspects ofthat.
(07:08):
You mentioned mentors. Can you recall any specific
mentors and anything that they taught you that you want to
share with our audience? Yeah, I'm really excited to
actually share about one of those mentors because that's it
was on my mind when I was sayingthat.
His name is Al Vasiri. He actually is a retired
professor at Penn State and he taught this capstone course in
(07:29):
strategic leadership. And I was tapped a few years
back at Penn State to bring sustainability as an approach to
strategic leadership and actually take over his, his
class. And, and I wasn't sure at the
time, but my first, the first thing I did was I said, Hey,
(07:51):
could I take your class before Iagree to that?
And so I took AL's class and, and my goodness, it was one of
the most humbling things I ever did.
I had to kind of slowly let go of so many things that I know or
think I know about strategy and leadership and justice, immerse
myself and someone who had dedicated their whole life to
(08:12):
the discipline of understanding this.
And so I had the the great fortune to take his class and
then agree to step in and bring some of the learnings from our
industry, from the clean energy industry into that graduate
course. And it's just so wonderful.
You know right now that course is a blend of everything that is
the legacy that Al gave me, along with insights from our
(08:34):
work on the clean energy transition.
You mentioned you had to unlearnthings.
Can you think of something specific that kind of got
flipped on its head for you? Oh, yeah, totally.
So first of all, my instinctually, when there is a
problem, when there's a fire burning, I'm, I want to just
tactically dive in and go solve it and go fix it.
(08:56):
And then the problem, of course,when that's your instinct is
that by the time you're halfway done putting out one fire,
another one pops up over here and over there and over there.
And so one of the things I learned is that even within the
heat of tactical firefighting, just how to pause, you know,
lift my head up, scan the horizon, understand where we're
(09:17):
going, align team, make sure we're clear on goals before
jumping back in. And then ideally, you know, not
jumping back into that tactical mode.
You made a great point about tactical firefighting and what
your mentor taught you there. I'm curious, that course that
you mentioned, is that availableto the public or is that only
for grad students? It's a good question.
(09:38):
A lot of people take it. The course that I'm teaching now
is called BA 865. You can go find it on Penn
State. It's a, it's the capstone course
in a program, a master's programcalled the Strategic Management
and Executive Leadership. But other people enroll in it
like certificates. So it may be available just as a
(09:58):
one off. All right, so let's pretend that
a time machine is invented and you can go back in time and to
the point where you started thiscompany.
What advice would you give your younger self?
Push power outward and downward.I mean, like harness wisdom from
everywhere on, on your team and especially don't become a
(10:25):
problem solver because as much as, and this was hard for me
because my, my nature is to see a problem and want to go fix it.
And so there's, there's so many problems with that as as a
leader, like when you, when you do that, you actually disempower
your team. You actually create a dependency
on yourself as a problem solver.And then that, you know, of
course, prevents you from doing the work that is critical, which
(10:46):
is that strategic leadership perspective of stepping,
stepping back and building, building the business for the
future and analyzing where things are AT.
And it leads the team to become stronger.
Because if you don't let people succeed on their own and fail on
their own and do it over and over, you're actually taking
away an opportunity for them to learn and grow.
And so that's why it's counterintuitive, but it's one
(11:10):
of those simple counterintuitivethings that make so much sense
and that require require us to step back back and just
intentionally, intentionally implement the practice.
So you mentioned social trends just now.
I want to talk more about that. I want to talk about community
engagement and specifically how attitudes towards renewables
(11:31):
have changed in recent years. So you've been following this
closely. What have you noticed in some of
the data and the conversations that you're looking at?
The easiest one to to point out is just pre and post
presidential election in in 2024.
In this current administration, there was a market shift in what
(11:53):
people were talking about. And also in So we do
quantitative analysis too, of like the percent of people who
support or oppose on the fence to, you know, solar wind,
battery storage. And given a given place, that
percentage of opposition increased dramatically between,
you know, pre November 2024 and post November 2024.
(12:17):
And interestingly, perhaps not surprisingly, many of the things
that are shared and spoken and repeated by people are
repeating, you know, what our president says.
And unfortunately, much of that is misinformation.
And so, so the prevalence of misinformation has increased.
(12:40):
And I don't know that that's thecause, but I just see the
verbatim responses from from people.
And so that has that has changed.
And then of course, along with some of the, the policies around
that, although even if the policies aren't necessarily
impacting the local development as much as as many people think,
(13:01):
the narrative is and the dialogue and the things that
people are talking about are very much impacted by those kind
of by that national noise is what I would call it.
I think what we do in our work in the, in the sighting and
communication sphere is really about signal and really about
connecting with people and understanding and communicating
value. But the noise broke through.
(13:24):
That was what I would say in 2024-2025, and it impacted both
the kind of how much support there was in a given community
and what people were talking about and what kinds of
misinformation is trending. As well, on that topic, what are
the most common misconceptions that you see out there driving
(13:45):
opposition? I'll share what's the most
common one that I think is the most challenging one as well,
because it's rooted partially and misinformation, but it's
more just rooted in conservativeand, and rural values.
And that's the, the, the sense that people have that they're
giving up farmland to make way for, for utilities scales, solar
(14:08):
and wind and, and battery storage.
And that one I think is the mostimportant one to, to focus on
'cause it's really authentic. It, it, its core is on genuine
concern that people have about their way of life, about their
identity, about the place they live, about how the place they
live looks about, you know, how they're, how they're, you know,
(14:30):
dad and mom and grandma grew up and, and it's about those things
which are very real. And, and so that one to me is
the most important one. One, because it's the most
prevalent point of opposition that we find when we're
listening to people. And two, because a lot of times
what we find is that part of thereason that people have that
(14:53):
sense is that they haven't been exposed to things like
pollinator grasses planted underneath the, the, the, the
solar arrays. So something like that, even
just as simple as an image or short video of that can actually
just show people how farmland and utility scale solar can
(15:14):
coexist at the same time. You know, for us, that starts
with listening and then asking people these questions that are,
you know, questions that educateat the same time.
Like what if we were to plant this and this is what it looks
like, you know, plant the pollinator grasses and and you
know, we found and then we get someone you talked about
messengers, a messenger for that.
One I like is the neighboring farmer whose crop yields
(15:36):
increase because those pollinators were planted
underneath. So it's about the community and
creating this like ecosystem around utility scale, you know,
solar, wind, battery storage, creating an ecosystem.
So that for me, and this is whatinspires me, this vision of this
industry as this force that comes in, this transformative
(15:57):
force that can come in and create new value and re enrich
the soil and increase crop yields and bring money into
these communities, both in community benefit agreements and
in, like I said, the, the, the crop yields and, and the jobs
and, and all of those pieces. So that as a transformative
force, when it's done well and when it's done right.
(16:20):
And of course, it's not always done well and right, which is a
challenge that we need to work on as communicators, with the
industry, with developers as well, because they want to do it
right. Sometimes they just don't know
how. Yeah.
And especially with agravoltaics, as I understand
it, not every site is ideal for,you know, sheep or grazing or
pollinator gardens. But we've noticed the same trend
(16:43):
that you talked about that what this, this feeling that a part
of their identity is at risk andgiving up this farmland.
And, and we also notice the samething that in communicating that
these two things can coexist. You can, you can move the needle
a little bit. I guess my question for you is,
(17:04):
do you see the needle move when you do that, when you show them
the images or can you say a little bit more about that?
Oh yeah. When it comes to things like
that, we don't, we don't guess about the needle.
We go out and test rigorously. So when I mentioned the five
second video of pollinator grasses under solar arrays, I
mentioned that because that's that is an experiment that we
(17:25):
ran very intentionally with super rigorous data analytics
with a control group and a treatment group.
So what we were testing there isdoes this image change how
people respond to the statement?You know, to what degree do you
agree with the statement that, you know, farmland and solar
panels are incompatible, right? And they so along that scale, we
(17:49):
showed people this video and whole bunch of others, right?
And then some people, none. And that particular video
literally moved the needle. Nice, nice.
Is there anything that was really surprising that you found
when you were listening to thesecommunities, or anything
surprising that you learned fromyour research?
I, I'm going to share something that I find very surprising and
(18:10):
it's, it's, it's actually impacting how we're thinking
about what we call narrative regrounding and it's going to
get us into a discussion about artificial intelligence.
But so the, the research that I found just so kind of shocking
and delighting in a way was someresearch that I came across out
(18:34):
of, you know, MIT and a number of other, you know, American
universities. This was about conspiracy
theories. And what they did is they found
recruited a whole bunch of people who are entrenched in a
broad range of conspiracy theories.
I mean, like from flat earthers to, you know, COVID vaccine
conspiracy theories, a whole bigbroad range.
(18:56):
What they did is they had these people sit in dialogue with a
large language model, you know, with a basically a version of
ChatGPT and they found that through sustained a pretty short
but sustained conversation, about 20% of people who were
entrenched in conspiracy theories got disentangled from
(19:19):
them. That rate 20% I found just
phenomenal. And we work really hard to move
the needle 20% on anything we doas as you know Melissa.
So what we did is we went and started building artificial
intelligence agents that were fully trained on a very narrow,
(19:42):
narrow knowledge base. So they were trained up on a
very narrow knowledge base aboutclean energy and about facts.
And every single fact was sourced with something very
trustworthy and recognizable by people.
So like USA TODAY article or something like that.
So we meticulously created a knowledge base and built an
(20:03):
agent around it to go and interact with people.
Because I was curious, could we do the same thing for
misinformation about wind and solar and battery storage?
And the short answer is that we can and.
It's we're still trying to understand why that is, but
(20:25):
people engaging with kind of a adisembodied machine who just
kind of has facts, but it's still conversational, seems to
be more impactful than person toperson conversations in this
particular context when people are rooted in misinformation or
conspiracy theories. And so we are, we are right now
(20:49):
engaging folks, particularly theopposition people who are posed
and engaged in in some kind of misinformation about wind,
solar, battery storage to have aconversation and draw their own
conclusions. And I'll just say that the
initial results are, are promising.
(21:10):
And our approach to this is not persuasion.
We're not trying to persuade anyone or convince anyone of, of
anything. Our approach to this is
something we call narrative regrounding.
The idea is like, what if we could simply reground some
communities, perhaps even our country, Melissa, in a shared
set of facts about something that matters, you know, So
(21:32):
that's, that's what we're excited to explore.
We're still testing this, like anything, we're not going to
bring this, you know, out of thelab until we know.
And we're also very transparent with people.
The first thing that says is I'man AI agent and I'm going to
have a conversation with you. It sounds like you think about
this. So it's very conversational, but
it's very transparent that people are talking to an AI
(21:53):
agent. I'll be curious as you do this
research to see if you get a, a solid direction on the types of
credible, trustworthy messengersthat perform the best in this
work. Like is it the USA TODAY
article? Is it a professor at this
university? Is there a local university
connection that matters more? And so I'd be really excited to
(22:17):
learn more about that when you have the information.
Excellent. Well, good.
So we talked a little bit about AII want to continue that
conversation in a new light, though.
We want to talk about marketing communications, which is this is
what we do at Tiger Com. We're at marketing
communications and PR. But my question for you is, what
is your Civic Iqs toughest marketing communication
(22:38):
challenge that you're facing right now?
Well, I'll give you, I'll give you 2, two answers to that.
One is an answer that I'm reallyexcited about because we're,
we're in the early stages of working with a new client and
this is a new client in a totally different space and that
(22:58):
space is carbon capture and storage.
Then it turns out that they havemany of the same challenges and
concerns, not identical, but many of the same challenges and,
and concerns that that we have with, with solar and, and wind
and and battery storage in that,that it's community opposition
that is shutting them down. So that I would say is a
(23:22):
marketing challenge like and I don't know what the story is
there. No, that's a great, great
question. I think it really does depend on
the company, the community, the location, their history, what
have they've been doing there before?
What is their knowledge of this?Is there any economic benefit
that it's bringing so? Yeah, but yeah, the second, the
(23:46):
second marketing challenge is a little, a little closer to home.
You know, what we do at Civic IQis like, so it's so geeked out.
It's so rooted in data and data analytics and all of this stuff.
And and I love all the data and stuff.
I find sometimes that actually just having this crisp, concise,
kind of like marketing friendly version of what we do is a
(24:10):
constant challenge. I'm I'm thinking about because I
don't want to make it seem, you know, less nuanced and complex
than it is than it is. But I also want to really
communicate what, what the valueis in a way that people
understand that what we do is very is very different than than
traditional, you know, surveyingand it's very different than
traditional calms. And we, you know, we, you know,
(24:31):
we segment our audiences. So we never send the same
message to any group. We've got our supporters, we've
got our opposition, we've got onthe fence and we've got
different gradations within there.
And depending on where you are, you get a unique message and
experience with us. So it's complicated in some
ways. And the other sense, it's
simple. So that I would say is a is
another marketing challenge that's occupying my mind these
(24:53):
days. Is, is how do we, you know, how
do we communicate about that unique value in a way that shows
how simple and powerful it is and without, you know, throwing
under the bus, how it's rooted in, in nuanced and complex data.
Yeah. Oh, that's a great question.
I my top of the line response for you would be one of the
(25:15):
things that I noticed. I just, I recently did an audit
of the top 100 clean tech companies and I was looking at
them for actually to see what AIknows about them because SEO is
being replaced by AI search and in a, in a big way and quickly.
And for these large language models, when they go out and do
their training, they create a memory.
(25:35):
And so the memory is static. It doesn't change.
And it's only when you tell AI to do a live search that it will
find differentiators for your company.
And one of the things I noticed in this research was that a lot
of companies are so obscure in using buzzwords to describe
themselves that it's really hardfor people and for machines to
(25:56):
differentiate who they are. Like every company in the energy
transition is, you know, pursuing a clean energy
transition, everybody is, you know, bringing power to people
who need it. And so my advice is to be really
specific if you can. And, and the other piece of
advice is to who you are, what you do, how you're different.
(26:17):
Those are the key, you know, pillars of your key messaging,
but not being afraid to quantifywith data that difference and,
and something that is specific and measurable.
That's another really helpful way that companies can stand out
from the crowd, use specific data, but also tell a story.
That's the other way that we seethat people can really connect.
(26:38):
So I want to continue here. The next section of our
interview is on learning and development.
You mentioned the professor thatwas your mentor, but you know,
are there any books or podcasts that you would recommend to our
listeners? Oh yeah.
If anyone hasn't come across Reimagining Capitalism in a
World on Fire by Rebecca Henderson, masterful many
(27:01):
stories and examples of incredible transformations.
We're talking like transformations like how Dong
Danish oil and natural gas became or stead.
And not all, of course, about clean energy, but just great
research chock full of stories about companies who have
(27:23):
reimagined what it means to do business and how to do business
and how to replace old moving systems with newer technology
and better ways forward that don't kind of destroy our world
and our capacity to thrive in italong the way.
So it's just a masterful collection of stories about that
(27:46):
in terms of a podcast. So I am in and from the very
early days and pre ChatGPT of then a student of artificial
intelligence. And I believe that we are on the
brink of, you know, industrial revolution scale change in a
much shorter time frame. There's a podcast that has an
(28:08):
overview of the kind of the history of the development of of
artificial intelligence. It's called The Last Invention.
It's by Longview Media. It is.
I think it's a must listen for anyone who hasn't had the chance
to be exposed to kind of the history of how artificial
intelligence developed and then the recent history of the
(28:31):
breakthroughs that have led to where we're at now.
And it's great because their messengers and this are the
people who built it, their new concerns.
And now that it's actually working, you know, and so it's,
I think it only has about 7 or 8episodes, but it's just
phenomenal for anyone who who, who wants to, yeah, kind of hear
(28:53):
that history and see, see what we might be on the brink.
Of those are great recommendations.
Thank you, Eli. My next question, this is a
simple question. Do you think that success relies
upon what a company chooses to do or what they choose not to
do? I believe that success,
(29:15):
particularly within a strategic leadership framework, is the
challenge of maintaining the current business that we have
while building the business of the future.
And how much attention to give to doing things the way they are
and keeping the lights on now. And how much attention to give
(29:38):
to the business of the future that we know we're going to have
to build in order to remain relevant as the world changes.
Because if you just keep doing what you've always been doing,
sooner or later you're going to,you know, become extinct because
the world's going to change without you.
So as a leader, just navigating the tension between those two
(29:58):
two points to how to keep the current business going while
building the business of the future.
What What about performance and well-being?
Is there anything that you do atwork or in your personal life to
maintain your ability to performas ACEO on a daily basis?
I do I about three to four days a week when the world doesn't
(30:24):
interfere in other ways. I get up at 5:00 in the morning
and before I even look at a cup of coffee or a cup of tea, I go
down and put on a weight vest and do a super intense, like 20
to 30 minute workout. And then I have a kind of
contemplative time of, you know,reflection, prayer.
(30:44):
And then I read, I study, I I gofind a new book, I go find a new
podcast, and then I do my most important strategic work.
And when I do that, which is many days of the week, I've
gotten the things that I care most about done way before my
(31:04):
first call ever starts. Because once my calls start,
it's kind of too late. Yeah.
Then then it's then we're all, you know, in the weeds as we
have to be. You know what I mean?
I also have such a robust familylife.
I have a 15 year old daughter who I adore and, and my wife.
And so I I stopped working for the most part, you know, by 5
(31:26):
good. For you.
So there's, you know, sometimes there, there's things I have to
deal with, but I, I am pretty, pretty good about that.
My final question, is there anything else that you'd like to
share with our listeners that wehaven't talked about already?
I would just say this oppositionis not a constant.
It's dynamic and at the same advice I gave to my myself of
(31:48):
pushing power outward and and downward and harnessing insights
from everywhere. I believe applies in this
context in the way I I mean thatinvite these communities in to
participate in the design of these projects.
Magic happens when you invite them in, even the opposition and
(32:10):
really inviting them in so that these projects aren't something
that are just helicoptering in and happening to them, but so
that they have agency of some sort, that they feel it, that
they're being heard and listenedto and responded to even on the,
especially on the design and early side of it.
(32:31):
That's a great point, Eli. And I just, I'm going to play
pretend that I'm a skeptical developer and ask you the
question like, hey, but wouldn'tthat cost too much?
Or is it impossible to make themhappy?
Like, what is your response to adeveloper who's heard this?
But maybe they don't think it's realistic or achievable to do
what you're saying. Yeah.
Well, I'd say just you're, you're really strategic about
(32:53):
the way you do that in Capec friendly ways.
Like you don't go and promise tolike only build on, you know,
rooftops and things that can't be done.
You go out and do things, but you know, you can do like it's
an area where you know, you can plant pollinator grasses and you
know that you have budget, you know, in this project to be able
to do that. So it's, it's very strategic as
(33:13):
well that it's not an open-ended.
I mean, yes, you ask open-ended questions, but you combine that
and that's why it requires partnership with developers as
well to to know what can be done, what there is budget for
and then invite the input in on,you know, CapEx friendly design
changes that can benefit from community input.
(33:35):
Terrific. This has been so fun, Eli.
I've really enjoyed getting to know you better and learning
about your technology. Thank you so much for being on
the show. It's been a pleasure.
Thanks for joining us for another episode of Scaling
Clean, the podcast for clean economies, CEOs, investors, and
the people who advise them. I'm your host, Melissa Baldwin.
(33:56):
Our producer is Claire Quirin. If you like what you hear on
scale and clean episodes, we'd appreciate it if you'd give us a
five star rating and leave a comment where you get your
podcast. And until next time, we wish you
all the best in the clean economy transition.
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