Jessica Joelle Alexander | Danish Parenting Secrets: Raising Happy & Confident Kids - Self Directed

Episode Transcript
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Jesper Conrad (00:00):
Today we're together with Jessica Joel
Alexander.
First of all, welcome and it'sgood to see you.

Jessica Joelle Alexander (00:06):
Thank you, it's good to be here.

We would like to talk about your book Parenting
the Danish Way, but how did youend up?

in Denmark.
Well, my husband is Danish, butI actually met him in Brussels,
and so more than 20 years agowe got married in Florida, we
moved to Norway, we moved toNorway, we moved to Italy and
then we moved to Denmark.
So we've been around Not quiteas much as you, probably, but

(00:36):
we've definitely experienced afew places, and so I had the
good fortune I didn't know atthe time, but his parents did
not speak English so whenever wewere in Denmark, I actually was
forced to learn the language,which was very frustrating at
the time, but ultimately becamefantastic because it really

(00:56):
helped me with the culture,understand things differently.
So, yeah, so, anyway, that'swhy we've ended up here.
So my kids are speaking english, italian and danish, and now
they're in the danish schoolsystem, and one of my main goals
of actually getting back todenmark was because I wanted to
give them more roots here andthe schooling experience and

(01:21):
your book.

How did that came to be?
What made you think I I need towrite a book about these weird
dames?

they are parenting in such a strange
way well, interestingly, manypeople don't know this, but the
idea actually came to me initaly.
So I've always been veryinterested in different cultures
and I'm a researcher and apsychology background and it's
always been a bit of my, let'ssay, default interest to really

(01:52):
study people and cultures, andso, of course, you become aware
of how different we all are.
But it was.
It became extremely clear thatin parenting there it was sort

(02:12):
of even more dogmatic, some ofthe cultural differences.
So, and I would really noticeit if we would travel from
country to country, especiallywhen we had babies.
You know, in England they hadsome various sort of set ways
about this is how you do with ababy and this is.
You know, in England they hadsome various sort of set ways
about this is how you do with ababy and this is.
You know, you give the milkbefore they go down and they
need to be on this schedule, andand then in Italy it was, it

(02:33):
was very sort of this is how youfeed the baby and they should
have little pastas in theirbottle with Parmesan cheese and
olive oil, and you know it was,it was it just was.
It started becoming veryinteresting to me and, having
been in the Danish culture somuch and also lived in Norway, I

(02:54):
really noticed a difference inthe Scandinavian approach to
these other approaches and andactually so as my kids were
getting a little bit bigger.
So I was really aware of thisand thinking a lot about it.
And and then I had, I rememberhaving an experience in the, in
the Italian, what do you call it?

(03:17):
A needle like a focus doinglike a sort of pre-kindergarten,
which for me was so culturallydifferent than an American, than
anything I'd ever, and I justthought, wow, this is this kind
of experience will shape thechild for the rest of their life
.
And and I really sort of knewalready then that I really

(03:40):
preferred the Danish approach.
I was already asking my in-laws, my friends, for advice on
everything right, so like how doyou get them to sleep, what do
you do for this?
And of course it's like putthem outside and all these
things, because everybody justseemed to know the answer.

(04:01):
In Denmark there was kind of away right, and I had read many,
many books and I'd studied this,but I started discovering that
I found that the kind of Danishway was the one I really
deferred to.
It was very basic.
It was just sort of made sense,it was not complicated and, of
course, every time I went toDenmark I saw the children and

(04:25):
you've probably noticed there'sa serenity and a calmness in
children here that I don't know.
I find you don't find in thesame way tons of other places.
So, but it was one summer Iread in the newspaper that
Denmark had been voted as thehappiest country in the world.
I read in the newspaper thatDenmark had been voted as the

(04:45):
happiest country in the worldand we were on vacation and I
had already been sort ofnoticing some of the ways my
husband was interacting with ourkids which for me was very
Danish, thinking wow, that'sgoing to have a positive effect
on their life for their wholelife.
I was literally thinking thatthat morning and then I read

(05:06):
this in the newspaper and I justthink, oh my gosh, maybe it's,
maybe the parenting is one ofthe reasons they're happy.
And I think, as an Americanbecause our Americans are just
obsessed with happiness Icouldn't understand why.
Having been married to a Danefor so many years, I've never

(05:28):
heard this before.
So for me it was just like anaha moment and and I was I
wondered if it had ever beenconceptualized, the sort of
Danish approach, and so Istarted researching and looking
into it and wrote to a friendwho was a danish psychologist
and um, and it didn't exist.

Cecilie Conrad (05:49):
So that was it, and it's become my life's work
it's fun I remember I picked itup in some bookstore somewhere
and it's one of these bookswhere I'm like, yeah, I probably
don't need to read this one.
No, so I haven't read it, to behonest.

(06:10):
And now I'm curious, but I'mtalking to you so you might give
me the highlights.
It's just it was right next tothe little book on happiness, so
they use the words Luca andHugo.
If you go there, there are twovery popular books and it's just
funny how our culture it's like, it's hip, it's out there.

(06:30):
People are looking atScandinavia.
We left Scandinavia, but themore we are out of Denmark, the
more we travel, the morecultures we meet, the more
people we meet, the more we talkabout it.
All the hours and hours ofdriving is a lot of conversation
between me and my husband andour three children who travel
with us about the culture wejust met.

(06:52):
How do they do it here?
What makes sense, what doesn'tmake sense?
What did we see?
What did we not see?
And the more it happens, themore of course we see what we
brought with us, because we arefrom scandinavia.
And yeah, I'm just curious nowto what is that danish way?

because I think I'm not mindful of that no, also
because it's maybe it's sorooted that we don't see it as a
way.
It is not a technique, it is,as you say, culture.

You brush your teeth when you go to bed, right?

In fact it's funny.
So I wrote another book calledthe Danish Way of Education, but
they didn't publish it inEnglish because they said we're
not interested in educationright, there's less people that
are interested.
But like, I'm probably going totry to publish it anyway.
But anyway, it's been publishedin like five other languages.
And I've done some talks inDenmark.

(07:49):
I had some schools hire me todo talks and I was like are you
sure you want me to talk aboutthe Danish way?
Right?
And they said yeah, yeah.
And what was fascinating was soI did this talk.
This was about education, likehow it's different than the
other systems, and it was likeyou just saw, like the light

(08:13):
bulbs that went on, like likethe.
I really think there's so manyspecial things here that if
you're in the culture like, youdon't see it.
It's part of the fabric.

Yeah, if you're in the culture like you don't
see it.

It's part of the fabric.
Yeah, and um, and so for me,when I find something that, like
a danish person doesn't notice,that I know is so different,
that's when I know I found likea little nugget of gold.

Um, I will.
I will wait to hear about itbecause it reminds me of.
We travel full time, so we arearound a lot, but we have been
emerged in Italy, spain and theStates and in Mexico for a

(08:59):
couple of months enough to seeit and in UK, and one of the
cultures that baffled me themost was UK, because they're so
close to us that I thought wewere more alike in our parenting
.
Oh, and yes, oh no, they are somuch down than I, but I didn't

(09:24):
see it because, culturally,joke-wise, our way of having
sarcasm, the irony is so closethat I have seen some things
where I'm like, well, that'sweird, why are they still like
that?
Almost, and in the US, whereyou come from, it's.

Oh, that was the largest cultural shock we've
ever had, which is interesting.
And where were you in the US?
We were in California, we werein Illinois, we were in Kansas,
we were One more, I can'tremember.

Chicago San.

Francisco?
Yeah, I can't remember exactly,but it was everywhere.
That culture was just sodifferent that we could hardly
breathe.
But really I want to hear it.
Can you do you have highlightsof the Danish way Like, can you
pull it?

Jessica Joelle Alexande (10:20):
Because I'm really curious.
Ok, well, so, and again, what'sinteresting, and the fact that
you didn't read it for thatreason is a compliment.
So the book has been publishedin, I think, 32 languages, but
not in Danish.

And it's because I picked it up Interesting.
And then I thought well, right,right, right.

But that's what's so funny is like
some people would ask me youknow how do I get advice?
You know it's not a way, it'sjust like call a Dane, right,
like, if you need help, justcall a Dane, like most will have
a similar outlook.
Well, I mean, I can tell you afew things with the parenting
and then I think also theeducation is very different.
But with the parenting it'slike it's things like free play,

(11:04):
um, but with the parenting it'slike it's things like free play
.
So you know, I I saw actuallythat you guys had peter gray on.
Yeah, he was like a big.
So I'm comparing a lot theamerican way with the danish way
.
Yeah, and, and peter gray waslike, like at the basis for the
sort of research of why play isso important.
But I knew already that playwas so important in Denmark.

Yeah.

So it's.
It's not, like you know, inAmerica and the UK it had, it
has.
Now we're talking about it now,but but at the time you know,
kindergarten and first grade,all these things had just become
so over academic and I don'tknow what you say that very much
about academics.
So go into school early, learnfaster, read earlier, do math,

(11:59):
play almost could be a lazychoice, and you never want to
say that.
You just let your kids play,you know you want to say well,
my child, my child, is studyingmandarin with blocks, you know,
and my child is doing, you know,baby yoga, and it's the busier

(12:23):
you can be, the more you'reconsidered getting your child
ahead.
And so I think what happened tome was I came with this American
hat on, I was looking for mydaughter's education.
I'm not even sure I waspregnant yet.

(12:43):
Maybe I was pregnant, but itwas one of those things that my
husband came in and was like,maybe we should have the baby
first, you know.
So I came in with my Americanhat on and then she was in
school and I was and I was beinglike a lot of other American
parents, like is she learningenough?
Is she learning enough?
Is she learning enough and myparents were giving me all the

(13:05):
early reading and you knowthings you could do faster.
And then I would find my theDanish counterpart was like,
just let her play.
You know, you have the SFO andyou have these, the forest
kindergartens, and you have the,and you don't have the same
pressure, right?

(13:26):
I mean, if anything, I findthat this is funny.

you say it because you know, I think we
have it.
We just have it to a smallerextent.
I see your point and you'reright, obviously.
But on the other hand Iremember, um, but on the other
hand I remember.
I mean it might be you mightknow, but we unschool and so

(13:52):
we're out of that system.
And I remember talking tosomeone I can't remember
recently I talked to someone whohad taken her child out of
vogastu, so that's two years old, taken out of the institution.
And the teachers there saiddon't do that, she will fall

(14:12):
behind.
And I was completely baffledI'm very Danish, apparently
completely baffled with the idea.
Even what can you be behindthat when you're two years old,
some two years old, two yearolds don't even speak yet.
What's the problem?
How can you even have a measure?
But they do have that now it'sgetting.

(14:33):
It's going in the wrongdirection.
So I think your voice is veryimportant, that we talk about
the values and the reasonsbehind them the values and the
reasons behind them.

It's interesting you say that because
actually I realize now, comingto denmark, one of my objectives
this year is I would like tostart to actually talk more in
denmark, because I feel like I'mhearing this more and more.
And here I wrote this book forforeigners.
Yeah, teach them about thisspecial I.
I wrote an article.
Actually, if you go tothedanishwaycom, I also have

(15:07):
some articles there.
But I wrote an article not thatlong ago.
I said if the childhood inDenmark could become a UNESCO
heritage site yes, please maybe30 years ago.
Well, even now, way better thanit is in other places.

(15:28):
So so what I see in thesummertime, of course, because
you know you see more in thesummer.

See it in the winter now, but you know it,
what?

what you see is just, I believe that
there is still much more genuineappreciation and care and
protection of a child's right tobe a child than I see in other
places, and I almost would likelike please be aware of it and
let's protect it, because I dothink that you become a.

(16:01):
You know, we're trying to raisecompetitive people.
We're trying to raisecompetitive people.
We're trying to raise confidentpeople.
I think you become a far moreconfident person with
self-esteem when you're allowedto be a child yeah, like you're
doing unschooling when you'reallowed to choose what you want
to study, when you're allowed to.

You know all the benefits that you get from
self-directed learning, know allthe benefits that you get from,
from self-directed learning.
Jessica, I think my view of theworld is probably skewed by the
way we travel is we travel andwe often meet up with
like-minded uh.
So for us, uh, people in thestates are so much further ahead

(16:45):
because you are up to 8% of thepeople who are homeschooled.
I know a lot of that isschooling at home, very
classical, strict maybe even.
But in Denmark we are less than1%.
So for me that is quite funthat the States and UK and some

(17:06):
other places stands to me asshining lights inside our small
bubble.
But then I have tried to be onthe streets where there's no
children, because they areeither in school or to
extracurricular that is decidedupon by a teacher and the mom is
shouting at them to do betterand all this.

(17:27):
So I see it a little, but it'sa fun perspective to really
realize how awesome the Danishway of parenting is, because we
moved away from a system wethought was too restrict,
because we moved away from asystem we thought was too
restrict, and then we see theshining lights in Peter Gray,
for example, or other people who, because in the States, have

(17:52):
been a movement for way longerthan we have.

So I think my perspective is skewed,
because I meet some wonderfulpeople everywhere, of course, I
think in America and a bit inthe UK, but there's, there's
much more.
Let's say freedom to a fault Iwould say, you know, for good
and for bad.
So there's, there's, there is ahuge homeschooling movement and
there you'll, you know, you canfind everything in the US and

(18:23):
that's wonderful, and I thinkyou, you know, think it's a
humongous place.
So it's really difficult toeven compare size.
Wise, denmark, I think, is somuch more about the community.
You know fellescape and thesekinds of things.
Again, for good and for bad.
And so, america, you can be much, you can choose many different

(18:47):
roads, but if you're going tochoose the route, the sort of
standard road to put your kidsin public school and not, and
you can't do homeschooling, oryou you know what I mean like
the, the, the still, the stillstandard is, oh, it really needs
, it really needs help, itreally needs overhaul, and I
know that people are starting tobecome aware of it and I think

(19:09):
we're going to see a lot ofchange in the next, you know,
years for sure, um, so yes, sofor good and for bad, I have to
say um so far for us being herenow, um, especially with my son,
because my daughter's older, somy daughter was much more like
academic and so she was okay inthe more competitive schooling

(19:35):
system.
My son is much less, so you knowhe's more artistic, and so for
us moving into the Danish school, I was really scared because I
didn't know how it was going togo.
Um, it's like I almost want tocry sometimes.
He's so much happier and it'sbecause they do so many

(19:59):
different things than just mathand English and history and so
so for us.
So, so one of the things Italked about, the Danish
education, which I think isreally different from like
standard education that I findin other countries, that's the
difference between, like Danelseand Udanelse.

Oh, yeah, I'm trying to explain.
Can you translate those?
I say exactly that when I tryto communicate with people from
other cultures, what ourperspective is and what we want.
And because we unschool, we geta lot of questions about
education because we, there isDendelse and then there is
Uldendelse, and that is not thesame perspective and what we

(20:49):
focus on is the first thing.
The other one is more like atool that you can use if you
need it to achieve Dendelse.
So, yeah, please go on.
Can you translate this?
How do you do it?

how do you do it?
Yeah, well, this is this is,for me, one of the just most
fundamental beautiful thingshere um, so, so udan obviously
is academics, so that's that'steaching english and math and
and all the things that anamerican would understand,
because that, for an american,that is education.
That's when you go to school,you learn math, you learn

(21:28):
English, you history, you thescience, right.
Danilza is like how to be agood person.
Danilza is sort of like thehuman things, like empathy, and
you know how to help each otherand how to think about other
people, how to be a good person,how to be a good citizen, and

(21:50):
most of the teachers I'veinterviewed they say that it's
often about 50-50.
And so a lot of the things that, for example, my son is doing
in school now are denunza right,so it is much more focused on,
I mean things like they go tothe graveyard and they talk
about hans christian, like he'shans christian.

(22:13):
Anderson they were talkingabout, but they were also
talking about like death and andyou know having them really
think about it and talk about it, and you know journal different
things and, um, you knowwhether it's doing projects
where they're together andworking on fellowship, which is
community, like, how do you worktogether as a team?

(22:37):
A lot of the classes I've beensitting in, you know, you're
often hearing the teacherssaying remember, we have to take
care of each other, remember totake care of each other, it to
take care of each other.
Remember, it's like oh, youhear it a lot and like, as an
American, this is really.
I was doing research for thisbefore we lived here and all I
could think of was, oh my gosh,my son would really benefit from

(22:58):
this style.
And in fact, what's beeninteresting to see, um is again
so in this system, it's not justabout the learning, and you
know you don't get grades untilyou're 13, I think 12.
You're not doing a ton oftesting, um, you know.
So you're not in competition.

(23:19):
Who's the smartest, who'sgetting the best grade, which is
which we are in america from.
Like kindergarten, we weregetting sort of kinds of grades
which is crazy if you thinkabout it yeah I mean it would.
It would be grades like you know.
You'd be getting e forexcellent or s for set, how you
were.
Yeah, um, and when he was inthe american system he felt

(23:44):
stupid.
He had sort of labeled himselfas a slow learner.
You know, he felt stupid.
He felt that's how he had kindof was feeling and you could see
it weighed on him a little bitright After half a year in the
Danish system you can just seehis confidence change.

(24:05):
You can see him being so muchsweeter.
He's so much more helpful,because it's also things like
doing duksa Right, where you dochores, you help each other.
You do cooking, you domelkunnskap, like cooking art.

It's a wonderful word for it.

It's wonderful and I think suddenly
he could be good in a lot ofother things.
Yeah, and he could be a goodfriend and that's part of
Danelse.
I remember asking a Danishteacher once I was in the school
and I and I'm like where areall the awards, where are all

(24:47):
the trophies?

what, what awards ?

yeah, because, in American schools
it's like trophies, trophies,trophies.
You know who's the?

best in the basketball.
Yeah, yeah, the competitions ofcourse it's so.

So you see, like there's all these
signs of who's the best in allthe different things, and I
remember the teacher laughed andhe said that's so American to
me.
He said if we had an award,maybe it would be for being a
good friend.

Yeah, yeah, and I was just again like yeah, we
don't have the best student ofthe year or anything like that.
Now Can I go back to the dentalversus, because I think I might
have a more conservative pointof view, or just maybe, maybe
it's an add-on, I don't know, um, because I think I usually

(25:38):
translate dental to the formingof the person.
So it's the whole journey frombeing a toddler to forming your
personality and and and learning.
Well, all the things you learnas you grow up and when you are
in our culture now it's maybeyour early 20s you are like,
you're a young adult.
You could, you know, go to thedentist or to a fine reception

(26:02):
or to a job interview, or sit ona train and do all your things
in your life and you kind ofknow how to handle all these
situations.
And and a person who, who hasbeen formed well, a dental
person, it it's this person alsohave.
So this person has beeneducated.

(26:24):
But it's only an element.
You have your education so youknow about the world, so that
you can contribute, so that youcan participate, so that you can
win some bread, you can have acareer, you can unfold your
talents, you can help otherpeople, you can hold a
conversation, but these things,the academic education.

(26:47):
You need that so that you canbe a full person.
But you're not a full person ifyou don't know, as you said,
how to be in the community, howto be part of whatever situation
you're in, how to read the roomand know that this is not the
dentist, this is the, you know,the reception for a wedding and

(27:09):
all these different situationsthat we are in in life.
How do we handle them?
To prepare young children tohandle death?
By talking about it in school,because someday you're losing a
grandmother or a cousin, cousin,or you're helping a friend who
did, and did you ever thinkabout it before?
Do you know how to do?

(27:30):
You know what to say when youmeet someone who just lost
someone?
All these things is the formalperson and it's just such a
bigger deal for us here than theeducation such a bigger deal
for us here than the education,and that is what is for me.

It's so special and and it's it when
I I wrote you said about what doyou say when someone dies.
I remember being in a class oneof the classes team class hour,
for I think it was class one ofthe classes team class hour,
for I think it was sixth grade,fifth grade, and part of the the
lesson was about how to soothe.

(28:12):
You know, what do you do whensomeone's hurt and and it was a
mix of talking about it.
But then it was also like anoutdoor activity where they were
running around and like astuffed animal got hurt and they
had to come over and be likehey, you know, are you okay?
And and like I thought, god, Inever even considered learning
how to soothe someone and it it,it was.

(28:35):
For me it was very touchingbecause it's it's.
I wonder how have we missedthis?

Do you know?

like I guess.
I guess because America wasvery religious and like maybe we
always had religion, so weassumed that the character
training or the human humanityside was maybe taught by the
church.
But it's, it's, it's just oneof those things that when you
really become aware of it, Iguess also as adults we

(29:04):
sometimes take for granted thatour kids just know how to do
these things.
And I think that's where theblindness comes in, because they
only know if we help them andwe make it in part of learning,
we make it a part of like whatit is to educate a human being.

I can wonder if it had.
I mean, it's a good thing thatyou have this one hour a week
for for the class and therecould be a lesson like that, but
equally, these things could andmaybe should also be taught at
home.
And I think one problem that wehave in in the scandinavian

(29:48):
culture is the equality thingeverybody's working, everybody's
working not a lot compared toamerica, but it's still a lot of
a child's life that they arenot with their parents.
You're picked up after your freeplaytime at the after school
institution, which is great thatyou can play, but you come home
and then it's quite scheduledbefore you go to bed and you go

(30:12):
to school again the next day day.
So I think a lot of thisforming of the person that would
, a hundred years ago, havehappened at home cannot happen
at home because there's no.
There's no at home time, whichmeans we have to put it back
into the schools, and it's greatthat it's there.

(30:32):
I just think we have to notforget that in the beginning the
schools were a tool that thefamilies could use while their
children were growing up to toadd the academic part of the
forming of the person, which isfine if there is enough energy

(30:54):
to form the person in thecommunity around the child and
young person growing up.
And now we're running so fast.

We are outsourcing more.

That we're outsourcing childhood to
institutions in our country andI appreciate what you see.
But I think there's a dark sideto it.
With the equality and the lotsof work and the very young
institutionalization of thechildren before they're one year
old, Most kids take their firststep not at home.

(31:25):
Their parents don't see it.
That is sad because they don'twant the parents to know, they
want to think that they are thefirst ones to see the steps.

(31:46):
I think it's.
I just have to say it, becausethis is our podcast that we
broadcast on TV, and I hostanother podcast exclusively on
unschooling and I think it'sgreat, it's done.
But let's not forget what isalso lost in this.
You know, I I have to be in aschool system, go to Scandinavia
totally, but maybe think aboutit even when you're in

(32:07):
Scandinavia.
You know there is another way.

I think, I think, as you know, as
always, there's two sides, andthere's there and like, it's my,
it's, I choose, I choose.
Even in Denmark now, I'm, I'mvery careful to sort of, um, I
don't want to go down thenegative rabbit hole, so I'm, I
purposely try to focus on,because you can easily hear,
right, there's plenty of,there's plenty of pushback and
there's a lot of people thatthat, that, that don't you know

(32:33):
that there's plenty of problemshere, like there are every, you
know, everywhere, um, I thinkit's, it's it, it's like for me,
it's just it, because of what Ido and everything like it helps
me to kind of stay on the, onthe things that I think are
should be elevated other places,like I think is something we
should be doing everywhere, andand like, and I didn't have my

(32:56):
kids here when they were young,so I chose differently.
And and like, and I didn't havemy kids here when they were
young, so I chose differently.
And and I was able to be withmy kids in a different way.
So, so you know, it's not likeI I had.
I know exactly what you mean.
You know I, I have somethoughts on on the way, which,
which is another side right umgo ahead yeah, I have a.

Yeah, I have a question, because you have lived
in the different cultures andbeen immersed in Denmark and
have tried this and have grownup in the States.
One of the things we enjoyedliving in the States for three
months which is not a lot, butway longer than just visiting
was the difference in fear amongthe parents.

(33:39):
And there's also somethingabout how, on autonomy, and
maybe it's what I saw, but Ithink that American parents are
more scared of what could happento their children.

(34:00):
And then I see life being morerestricted.
You are picked up by a schoolbus, you are driven to school,
you're picked up, you're goingto extracurricular, you're
coming home, so the room forfree play is not really there.
And there's more anxiety wherethe kids in Denmark bike to
school from a certain age andwe're okay with that, we're not

(34:23):
afraid.
It's like, it's healthy.
Go out, it's raining.
Yeah, yeah, bring your raincoat, it's fine.

So how have your experience of growing
up in the States and thenseeing this, where one of the
examples is we leave our kidsout in the freeze and cold, you
know well, I mean, I can tellyou, coming here it was
interesting because I was in, wewere in italy before, in rome,
and there was no way our kidscould bike, there was no way
they could walk outside, thatyou have to drive everywhere and

(34:52):
um, and it was interesting.
In the first month being hereit felt like a 50 pound weight I
was carrying on my back hadbeen lifted.
I didn't even know it was there, because it's so much safer
here.
It's, it's like I, I, it wassomething almost unconscious.

Yeah, I didn't have to worry about my kids in
the way that I did is insane.

Oh, rome is insane.
It's just everywhere in europewith my kids and what we always
say.

we take the boat from barcelona to rome or to
cvc and then we drive down, andevery time we come to rome we're
like, okay, now we make sure wedon't die yeah.

Yeah, oh, so so yeah.

You've been in the worst hell of
traffic, so, so, so every day iskind of like, maybe not
thinking about it.
You're like, okay, don't die,you know.
So I, I think.
But of course there is a lotmore.
It's difficult for me to say,because I could also say, and
rightly so, there is moreanxiety in America in different

(36:02):
places, and we do have everywalk of life and we do, and of
course it's amplified by themedia and it's it's they, you
know, you've probably seenMichael Moore's film about.
Like you know, it is how theysell more things to make people
scared.
About.
Like you know, it is how theysell more things to make people
scared.
If you're scared, you buythings.
Um, so it's difficult and that,and that is one of those

(36:22):
challenges for a parent that onone hand, right, you want to be
more relaxed and and you shouldbe like it, you, you know, and
peter gray, and this let growmovement and um, at the same
time, I didn't, I haven't livedwith my kids in the US and I I
can say that I would love, Ihope that I would be that way if

(36:45):
we did, but I can't promise youthat I would.
I can't promise that my anxietywouldn't have overwhelmed me
like it like it did in Rome.
Now, rome is crazy, but but itwas, it was.
It was also sad.
You know that I couldn't let mykids bike around, and I
couldn't, I didn't feel safeletting them walk or um, and I

(37:09):
really wanted that for them.
I wanted them to have thatfreedom, and so for that also I
guess I'm really grateful to behere, because I do feel it's a
privilege.
I mean, the other day my son,I'm in Copenhagen central and I
woke up to the sound of hisfriend coming over with a
basketball in the courtyard,screaming Sebastian and

(37:31):
Sebastian goes and runs off andthey go play basketball in the
center of Copenhagen and I'mlike, oh, what a privilege, you
know we don't even see I grew upin the center of Copenhagen.

We lived in the center of Copenhagen until we
left.
I know how it is, but I alsounderstand.
I've been to other places, manyother places, and the whole
safety thing.
I think there's a.
Of course there are many placesthat are less safe and Rome is
insane, especially traffic wise.
It's even I'm an adult and I amlike will I survive this time

(38:10):
we spend in Rome?
Because can I even, will I evercross this street?
I'm standing here like an idiot.
It's been 10 minutes, I'm notcrossing.
So it is insane.
But I also think there is acultural element of the safety
issue question.
There is a fear.
There must be something deeplyrooted in the parenting style

(38:33):
and in the relation to being aparent and in the ideas of what
the job is.
Because the whole.
You used the word autonomy.
I wrote the word selvständighedon my piece of paper.
I have a Danish day, apparently.
I don't know exactly how totranslate it, but I've seen how

(39:00):
to me, it's normal to let a lit.
Even saying that I allow it iscrazy.
If my 12-year-old or10-year-old want to take the
train to the other end of townor the other end of the country
to see someone, I'll buy him orher a ticket and say have a nice

(39:20):
day, I'll do it.
I'm happy with the phones thatwe have now that we didn't have
with the first one.
We have a 25-year-old daughter.
It's easier now that I know Ican send a text message if I get
worried.

But even before I was nine I took the train
across the country all by myselfyeah, but and that's my
question- about, but that's myquestion about it, which is is
there something in the way ofparenting where we give our
children more freedom, trustthem more, that make us being

(39:56):
able to release and trust them,and is it part of making it less
dangerous?
Because they know themselves?
They know their borders in adifferent way, so they are not
in the same way crossing otherpeople's borders.
They are not in the same wayafraid of people going over
where their personal space is.

We're also back to this thing.
You know be a good friend, bein the community, take care.
Have you seen do they still dothat?
The big bus commercials?
I don't know.
When I was a child, the buseswere state owned and every year
in August, when school started,there was these big.
All the commercials on the buswere take care of the children

(40:40):
in traffic, because now and itwas about, you know we have new
people in the traffic, take careof them.
And there would be pictures ofthese six-year-olds that will
walk to school all by themselves.
That was normal.

Yeah, I think I mean.
Mean, my theory is that becausechildren are listened to so
much more here, I find childrenare respected so much more.
I mean, like you know, it's notstrange on the news you see
them interviewing children yeah,and their take, their voice is
taken seriously.
And I think when you'relistened to and you're taken

(41:15):
seriously as a child, you takeyourself seriously.
And I just find that thematurity level of teenagers, for
example, is just incrediblehere.
And I think it's when you'retaken seriously and you're
respected, you get it back.
When you're trusted from veryyoung, you become trustworthy.

(41:40):
It's, it's really.
I think it's that simplecomparison.

You know the, the obedient cultures but also,
if you really get what you needand you're trusted and you're
listened to, there's no reasonto cheat.
There's no reason to cheat,there's no reason to push back,
there's nothing to push at,there's no reason to go out and
make trouble or you know,because why would you want to do

(42:07):
that?
To get what you need, right.
But if you do get it already,then there's not really a
problem.

But also in the Dänelse.
There's so much talk about whatdoes it mean to be a good
friend about?
What does it mean?
What you know?
What does it mean to be a goodfriend?
What does it mean to be a goodperson you know?
This would be talked about aswell stealing and and these
things.
So I think this is what we alsounderestimate is the power of
discussing the importance ofhonesty, the importance of being

(42:35):
trustworthy and and all ofthose things which, um, yeah, I
mean, actually I wanted, becauseone of the reasons I wanted to
talk to you guys is because, um,in my sort of development with
my own children outside ofdenmark, one of the things I
felt was missing was sort of, uh, the denisa with digital

(42:56):
citizenship, helping them withthis phones and stuff.
And before I got my daughter aphone, I really felt like I
hadn't had enough preparationwith her and conversations and
classes, tima, and we were notin Denmark, so I felt like they
weren't even getting the programthey get here and and so one of

(43:18):
the things I did was I did aton of research to kind of get
the basic values of what itwould be to be Danit, uh, before
I gave her a phone and I madelike a kind of program with
conversation cards to talk about, like, basically, how you cross
the road in the digital world,how you're a good person, how

(43:39):
you handle various situations,what our values were as a family
and um, and it worked extremelywell for us.
I felt like it made our.
You know, we had a relationshipbased on trust rather than fear
, which is like what'sdominating the airwaves right
now about screen time.
It's just fear, fear, fear,fear, fear.
And I'm not saying that it'snot something to be fearful of.

(44:02):
But coming back to this idea ofthe danish parenting style, I
think it's it's important thatwe arm our children with
knowledge so that they canhandle themselves when we're not
there.
Yeah, I think you're super, can?

I.
I think you're super right, wehad a.

Yeah, go on, I think you're super right.
We had a talk with Darcy Anaves.
She wrote a wonderful bookcalled the Evolved Nest and she
talked about it in a differentway, where she said in the
hunter-gatherer culture you letthe children play with knives,
arrows, etc.
Because that is how they get toknow and work with them.

(44:38):
It will be their working toolwhen they're adults.
And she then added on but wedidn't let them play with the
poisoned arrow.
And it made me think about whatare the poisoned arrows inside?
Gaming, the computer, themessaging the social media the
messaging the social media, theDanilson part have been let out

(45:02):
of this, because it's almostlike a lot of parents are.
As you say, the fear level iswide when it comes to our
children are playing computergames.
I could feel it in myself alsothat I sometimes think my
children have been playing toomuch computer.
And then the whole thing aboutbeing on the phone.

(45:23):
It's like, oh, you're on yourphone too much, but what is the
phone?
Which kind of tool is it?
How many different activitiescan you do on the phone which
are fine, which aren't fine?
One part that isn't fine is theelectronic bullying that goes on
that people sometimes forgethow to behave when they cannot

(45:46):
see each other face to face.
But it's really difficultbecause I sometimes feel that
when I meet parents, it's likethere's this group of people
also in the unschooling movementwhere they're just like oh, the
kids can game as much as theywant, and I'm not against gaming
, but I'm like have we talkedabout it?

(46:07):
Do you know what's going on?
As a parent, has it been partof your life?
How are you sharing what isgood and bad?
How are you showing what thepoisoned arrows are?
And I would like to hear moreabout you saying you're working
on this right.

Yes.
So I had this experience whereI came to this moment where I
think many parents come to,where you know that you have a
rite of passage in front of you,because I think that time when
you give your child more digitalfreedom, whether it's with a
phone, you know there's justit's, it's.
It is a bit of a rite ofpassage, I find, and I became

(46:46):
very aware that I, whoa, there'sso much I need to talk to about
with my, with my, with mydaughter, and I didn't know
where to begin to covereverything because, like, of
course, you wouldn't get a book,but I'm not going to sit with a
book, right?
So I thought a lot about whatI'd seen in the Danish schools
and Klessens, tima, and I justgot all the information of what

(47:10):
they, they're the main valuesthat are covered.
So, like critical thinking, goodcommunity, then go tone, good
communication I call itcommunication because then go
tone doesn't exist in english um, bullying consent, uh,
well-being, um, I forgot whatthe other ones are.

(47:33):
There's seven and uh, yeah.
So I just I made theseconversation cards that also had
some dilemmas.
So and I told my daughter Isaid, look, I want to go over
these, and when we're throughthem.
I think we should make anagreement together, and then I
think it's okay for you to havea phone and so, of course, she

(47:54):
was you know, she was you knowkids, what kids are.
She was you know, she was youknow kids.

what kids are like.
She cut my arm off.

Yes, so, but it was very cozy, like
it took us about two, threeweeks, maybe three weeks, and we
sat down and we had tea and wehad these discussions and and I
felt very, very good about therelationship we built.
I felt like we had covered someof the most important things.

(48:23):
I felt she knew how to handledifferent situations.
And then, as my son got alittle older and I could feel
that pressure of the time coming, it was interesting because he
had an iPad that he was using,but he didn't have a phone or
anything yet.
And and my daughter came to meone day and she said mommy, you

(48:46):
really need to do the cards withSebastian.
Yeah, and I was like, wow, okay, that's a big big thing, that's
great review.
And and my, my son startedasking me to do them, so I had
to elaborate them to make agaming section for him, because
my son was much more into gaming.
My daughter wasn't into gamingat all but so I did the same.

(49:08):
I created like a dinosaurprogram also with that and we
did them together.
And then, before he got a phoneand and I know that there were
two situations that having theseconversations really ended up
protecting him, because he knewhow to handle them and I know

(49:29):
that if we hadn't talked aboutit, he may have sat alone, which
we know is way more dangerousthan not.
So anyway, so, having all that,my husband decided this is a
very important project.
This is missing.
So he stopped doing what he wasdoing, and we've co-founded a
company raising digital citizensand we've made the cards into a

(49:52):
, into a whole thing.
We've made the, made them.
So, oh, nice, so they have.
So they have, yeah, sevendifferent categories and with
questions and and answers, and alot of them are just discuss
because the idea is you want?
This is not about finishingthem, it's not about doing all

(50:12):
of them, it's really abouthaving what I don't get any
grades or stars.
No, no, stars no, no, no no test, no test not at all, and you
don't have to finish them, andsome parents have said they do
one question and they end uptalking for an hour.
And that's the idea, becausewhat I think is the missing
piece here is we need to createa relationship with our children

(50:35):
around the digital world, whichis not going away.
I think we also need to havefree play and you know all of
the things that I've beenadvocating for for 10 years now.
I think digital parenting iskind of like, like you're saying
, it's where the poison arrows,but what this is about, it's
about helping our kids also beable to see the poison arrow.

Yeah, we are in a situation where, on some levels
, taking the choices we have,cecilia have been home with our
children.
I have been working from homefor seven years, so sometimes I
can put myself up on a pedestalinside my mind being like, oh,
we know how to do everything,kind of you know, and then I

(51:22):
fall down.
The further I put myself up,the harder I fall.
And what I wanted to say withthis is that some of the talks
we have had with our kids wehave had after the fact, luckily
based on a strong relationshipbeing there with all the work

(51:44):
Cecilia had put into our family.
And I find it interesting thatpeople can find these cards and
the program to get up before thefact, get a tool to talk about
it.
Because, yeah, I know, I have,yeah, I sometimes have ended up

(52:08):
with, you know, the reallystupid of damn it, let's just
throw that computer away becauseI fucking hate it, kind of
attitude.
No, no, yeah, pardon my frenchum, but I and that is the loss
of control as a parent, feelingI, I cannot control this, how

(52:29):
can I control it?
I, I control the computer out.
And then the day after,shouting it because I was angry,
I'm like oh wonderful, yes,good parenting.

Well done there, well done.

That will help Very mature.
That was a good way to talkabout it and I'm putting myself
in front of the bus because Iactually think that that kind of
communication is more oftenthan we would want in families
out there, that we lose it andthen we shout stupid stuff and

(53:03):
we go to the extreme.
And my child has actually toldme that he had difficulties
talking with me about hiscomputer games thing and how he
played because he was afraid Iwould actually do it.
And did I have a bad day?
After he said that yes, a badweek I was like you are the most
shitty dad in the world.

(53:24):
And then I grow luckily.
Yeah, you were about to saysomething.

No, we will, of course.
I suppose you have them forsale, your cards, and they look
really nice, and you said,people can find them.
They can find them in the shownotes.
It's like where do I find it?
What's the name?
I'll put a link in the shownotes as to where you can buy
these cards if you want them forconversation.
I was just thinking about twothings and I wonder if I should.

(53:55):
So they're combined, I think.
Another thing I've seen as adifferent parenting style thing
that I see happening moreconsistently in our country,
countries in the Scandinavianstyle, and less so in the big
wide world, is this idea of thedinner table, and there's a lot

(54:20):
to it.
So there's this idea.
If you call a day, and how doyou do so?
One of the things you do is yousit down.
You have a shared meal at theend of the day.
It's very healthy if you'reDanish and it's pots and pans on
on the table.
It's like it's a set table.
Everybody's there, mostfamilies.
You don't start eating untileverybody sits down.

(54:41):
You stay at the table.
If you have a certain age, it'snot like it's not rigid, but
it's like you sit there forconversation as well.
So if you, if you're a fasteater, one of our kids she can
eat so fast.
You can't imagine.
It takes her like a minute anda half and she's done, but she's
not getting up because she'salso there to have a
conversation.
And you know we just sit and ofcourse we didn't make them do

(55:03):
that when they were two.
We just can you do this for meplease?
We just you grow into it ifyou're a regular Dane, I think.
But this is a culture ofconversation, that's what it is.
It's not so much about the meal,it's about getting together,

(55:24):
talking about the day.
It's fine, whatever.
It's a culture of discussingthings, what's up with you, and
you can talk about your feelings, you can talk about your day,
you can talk about your homework, you can talk about your friend
or you can talk about whathappened on your smartphone.

(55:46):
And I just see in a lot ofother countries that we've been
to that this habit of having adaily meeting, basically, where
you have a real communication,you have a real conversation and
there's time for it.
The older the kids get, themore time you actually have for
it, because they don't need togo to bed so early and this

(56:09):
gives space for theseconversations.
They take time.
That's one of the things I sayvery often when I talk about
unschooling that a lot ofunschooling is carried by
conversation.
We talk a lot.
I speak with my kids like it'sa part-time job, really.
This morning I was so lucky tohave all four of them in the

(56:29):
same room.
We talked exactly about thedigital life, how it unfolds,
how we all feel.
The oldest is 25.
The youngest is 13.
They have all their differentrelations with their phones and
computers and it's just sointeresting you bring it up
today.
Oh man, has that been a journey?

Yeah, and I think one of the reasons
why I made them was to use alsoa dinner, and that's where a lot
of families use them, becauseIn our generation we don't have
the prompts, we didn't grow upwith the phones, we didn't grow
up in this world.
So this is also kind of aneducation for the parents and
one of the things I tell parentsit's like and not for Danish

(57:11):
people, because because it'seasier, because we're more on an
even level but what I see a lotof parents struggle with and in
the you know where it's morelike this right, I'm a powerful
one, I know everything and youknow less.
It's really challenging toaccept.
We have to be humble here.
Your kids are going to know waymore than you do.
You know.

(57:32):
I give like there's a littleparent booklet to kind of
prepare parents, like you know,be open, be curious, listen,
learn and, you know, take theseconversations, but be open to
really hearing what yourchildren have to say.
This is what's going to makethem trust you.
It's going to make them not beafraid.
They can't tell you something.
They're going to know you'reinterested in their world.

(57:55):
Because what happens is so manyparents because we don't know.
You know, and this is a blindspot for many of us we don't
know.
Therefore, it's easier to say,oh, that's bad, I don't really
know how to talk about it, right, so.
But what that does is itcreates a distance and in this

(58:15):
way, so it's like I tell parentsyou have to know that your kids
know more than you, and but youknow more than them about other
things, and this is thefeedback I've got over and over
again.
The parents say I can't believehow much my kids know and I
can't believe how much theydon't know.
And, and what's interesting is,the gap is that the parents
don't know a lot about, becausethis is like what are cookies?

(58:36):
You know, what are?
It talks about a lot of, alsosort of technical things, right,
and, and kids know a lot.
But when it comes to you knowwho are your trusted adults that
you go to if something badhappens, or you know what, why
is it?
You know what happens.
If you know what, why is it?
You know what happens.
If you like a mean comment, youknow it's the same as making

(58:58):
the comment basically like thesekinds of things that that many
parents take for granted, whichis the danusa, that they don't
know, and and so the idea waslike so you can sit at the
dinner table and this helpsparents bridge, make the bridge
that we don't have because wedon't have the knowledge,

(59:18):
because we didn't grow up in it.
Um, and I think you know my, mymotto is very american.
Um, you know the whole don'tsay no, right?
So we're saying you don't youever heard that?
Don't say no, oh, sorry, well,do you remember?
Just Say no, the drug campaignfrom like the 80s, yes, okay.
So all Americans know this,right.

(59:39):
So we're saying don't say no,say K-N-O-W.

Yes, yes Very.

Jessica Joelle Alexand (59:48):
American right.
That's my little catchphrase.

You gotta have a catchphrase.

You gotta have a catchphrase.

I don't have a catchphrase.

But it's really how I feel, because
I think that our default settingis just to say no.
It's just what we doimmediately and that's that's
that negativity bias that wehave, because we're afraid of
snakes.
You know, historicallyevolutionary.
We want to protect our children, so we don't want the poison
arrow, so we immediately want tosay no and I'm just saying like
take, take a second, take abreath and learn, ask about, you
know.
And, funnily enough, with thegames with my son, you know,

(01:00:21):
some of the questions are likeum, what's your favorite
character?
You know why, what, what, whydo you like certain superpowers
or whatever?
And we got into conversationsthat we would never have,
because I'm generally notinterested in video games.
But I pushed myself and I gotcurious and I think half an hour
he told me about who hisfavorite character was and why,

(01:00:43):
and I cannot tell you how muchit changed our relationship,
just because I was interested inwhat his, he was doing and it's
these things, I think, that arereally subtle and it seems like
such a basic was doing.
And it's these things, I think,that are really subtle and it
seems like such a basic thing,but I feel it's missing right
now, this kind of.
I think you're right.

Cecilie Conrad (01:01:01):
And if we are a little yeah, whatever in our
expressions, it's because we areDanish and we have these
conversations and we've had themfor many years about all kinds
of things, including the digitallife, and I wouldn't say we've
done well, because we've madeour mistakes as well and

(01:01:23):
sometimes we've been shot.
I've been shouting fortnighthas been a nightmare, no, but it
has because, yes, it doesn'tmatter.
We've done many different things.
We had four years in ourchildren's childhood where we
did not use digital at all,which was so easy for me because
I didn't have to cope with itand they were small, so I mean,

(01:01:46):
I don't feel they really missedout.
But we didn't watch movies, wedidn't use any gaming tablets of
any sort.
I didn't use any social mediaanything.
I would respond to my emailsand my text messages and that
was it.
And there was such a piece andI highly recommend do it.
Do it for a while.

(01:02:07):
It started out with I had acomplete burn, not burnout
breakdown.
I got very angry one day and Iasked my children after my
expression of my anger and Icalmed down and I said can we

(01:02:27):
please have one day, just oneday in this life, where we're
not gaming and we're notwatching TV and we're not
anything that you know?
There was a life before theinternet.
It's still out there and thatone day I kept going for four

(01:02:48):
years, but it was only.
It was only my decision for oneday.
After that one day, they wentto bed and said can we do it
again tomorrow?
And we kept decision for oneday After that.
One day, they went to bed andsaid can we do it again tomorrow
?
And we kept going for fouryears.
I don't think everyone wouldkeep going for four years, but
it's quite interesting to do itfor a while and I think that was

(01:03:08):
the big starting point of ourlong journey with these things.
And this morning now it's manyyears ago.
Those four years I had a veryinteresting but also and that's
where I came from with it.
You know we're like yeah, ofcourse, because we have these
conversations.
We had them before the fouryears, we had them during the
four years, we had them for thepast 10 years after, and I just

(01:03:29):
had it this morning over coffee.
I think we spoke for an hourand a half, the kids and I,
about these things, and, ofcourse, we do it leveled.
I find it very interesting tohear my children's perspective,
and I have a relationship withdigital world as well.
So I have some things that Iknow and some experience, but
I'm also another person.

(01:03:50):
The algorithms attack me in adifferent way in some experience
.
But I'm also another person.
The algorithms attack me in adifferent way, and it's so
healthy to do it, it's soimportant to do it and it's so
important to have that mindsetof having these conversations.
But I think if you don't havethe equal relationship, if you

(01:04:14):
don't have the strongrelationship, that's where you
need to start.

Jessica Joelle Alexander (01:04:18):
That's the problem and this is where,
like, really one of the biggestchallenges, honestly, for
different parents non-Danish orScandinavian, I should say, uh
is really this, because theretends to be this high power
distance and that's just acultural thing for, like,

(01:04:39):
italian parents, I mean it's.
It's very difficult for aparent to not know, not be the
one that knows, and yet it's.
This is such an opportunity tojust let let it go.
You know, because, because youcreate a different kind of trust
when your child sees you alsois being open, being vulnerable,

(01:05:00):
being on their level and andlike, yeah, it's, it's like I
come from an authoritarianfamily, so it's something that
I've I've had to really work on,like, I had to prepare myself
for some of these to be like,okay, don't be judgy, you know,
watch your tone, you know reallyto think about it, and I kind

(01:05:20):
of coach some parents to do that, because it is really hard when
you've grown up in such adifferent, in a different way.
But just to say as well, like,the idea of like, raising
digital citizens, the thing thatwe're doing, it's not just
about the conversations, whichis hugely important, huge, it's
also about being in the realworld, so, like, as we develop

(01:05:46):
this universe.
We're also going to help.
We want to have like sectionsfor the you know, the website
and different things to helpparents also have ideas to get
into the real world, becausethere's so many parents that
don't know how to camp, thatdon't know how to start a
campfire, that don't you knowsome of these things which which
, again, like like in denmark,kindergartners are learning how

(01:06:08):
to make a bull, right a campfire.
Um, in in other places, youknow, you don't even know how to
put a fire in the fireplace.
So so it's also about like,learning, giving ideas and
helping people also be in thereal world not had a really
interesting talk with.

Jesper Conrad (01:06:26):
I've written a book called the opt-out family
where they have opted totallyout and they have a family motto
.
Well, personally I don't thinkopting totally out is being in
the real world.
I think a mix is is good and um, but they had a family motto
which was inspiring, which wasum be more engaging than the

(01:06:51):
algorithms.

Uh, can I say nine things right now?

Yeah.

Wow, nine things , whoa.
I just feel like my brain isexploding.

Yeah, that's some good.

One.
No one's more engaging than thealgorithm.
No one can beat it.
Don't fool yourself to thinkyou can beat it, no one can beat
it I would have said one.

Yes, okay, that's also Danish parenting, where
the dad just say yes.

I don't think that's just Danish.

No, it's not.

My horse here.
No, I think that's a veryimportant one.
Don't fool yourself, no one canbeat it.
That's the poisonous error.
That's one of them.
Another thing is I just want tosay and that's a feedback I've
had from my children, it's animportant one saying the real

(01:07:47):
world is really cruel, at leastin our family.

Jessica Joelle Alexand (01:07:51):
Computer games are real, at least in our
family.
Hey, what do they say?
The games are real, it's okay,isn't that?

funny like so what do we talk about?
Online and offline world?
Or you know, okay, he's sayingcome out into the reality, which
was one of the mistakes I madea lot in the beginning of my
journey.
My kids were like I'm on thisamazing quest with my brother
and three of our friends andwe're, we're learning a lot
we're exploring.
There's this challenge, there'sa dragon, there's a mystery.

(01:08:20):
We've been working on this for45 hours.
We're just about to understandand unlock this epic thing, and
you call it unreal.
What I mean?
That's not fair, because I'vebeen sitting with the odyssey,
being two-thirds through anamazing quest with you know

(01:08:43):
something from old griefs youwouldn't have asked me to go out
and play ball, but now you do,because you're judgmental and
old-fashioned and and I tookthat.
It was not a fun day, but Itook that and I never called it
the real world anymore, and Iunderstand that you're probably
no, no, I, I, I think you're, Ijust think it's very relevant

(01:09:05):
critique it's.
It's my second, maybe also athird of the nine.
I felt was there, because, no,it's just they are right, the
kids.
Why do we call it the realworld?

but this is for them.
You know, um, I've heard somedigital experts and people play.
People have called they'recalling it fluid play, because
for children like they grow upwith, the digital play space is
no different than the than thanthe play space here.
Right, they move seamlesslybetween the digital play space

(01:09:37):
and the real play space orwhatever you know, the offline
play space, and so that's that'swhy, you know, for them,
growing up, it's all going to bepart of it's all part of the
real world.
It's.
It's us, particularly our sortof us as parents, this sort of
generation that we're kind of inthat gap between you know, the

(01:09:57):
next, the generation that willgrow up eventually, that will
have had this as part of theirlives, all their lives, and it
is a very interesting change andtransition and something, yeah,
for our kids.
We have to learn from them.

I am sitting with a question which is why, oh,
but why is theScandinavian-Danish way of
parenting different?
Did you touch in your researchto the book on how it could have
touch in your research to thebook on how it could have what

(01:10:38):
historically could have happenedor affected the way it have
ended to?

be or it's um, it's interesting.
You say that because over theyears, as the book has continued
to be become a bit of a staple,um, I have been wondering more
and more, also as I do researchand I see the school and I think
, well, how, how did this happen?
You know, how is it sodifferent?
I didn't write about it becauseI, because I think generally in
the book I stay away from toomuch like Danish stuff, if you

(01:11:06):
know what I mean, because it wasit was more to.
If you say too many things aboutthe Danish system, people get
turned off because they think,oh well, I can't do that because
it's different there, Right?
So I carry sort of on a biggerlevel, thinking that people
could just relate to and justkept saying, hey, they're the
happiest people, Rather than sayyou know, it's a good social

(01:11:28):
system and yeah, these thingsthat people they go oh, I can't,
that doesn't work for me.
And yeah, these things thatpeople they go, oh, I can't,
that doesn't work for me.
However, like having you know,being here and more into it, I
think there's as I've started tolook into it.

I think there's something with this Leustrop.

Jessica Joelle Alexand (01:11:44):
Leustrop yeah, there's something,
something happened there thatdefinitely shaped a lot of
Leiners' thought.
I think he's the one that cameup with the Heusgkolen A lot of
these.

No, that's Grundtvig.
Oh sorry sorry sorry, sorry,sorry, sorry, sorry.

Jessica Joelle Alexan (01:11:56):
Grundtvig oh Lusdorf is important as well
, Both of them, those two, thosetwo, yeah, yeah yeah, so
there's something with that, andbut for sure I mean for all of
its faults.
I do think it's like veryenlightened here compared to a
lot of other places, just interms of how children are

(01:12:17):
treated, how children areelevated and respected.

It's how people are.
So that was going to be basicthing really.
Well, I don't.
I'm no expert, but what I takeaway from from this amazing
priest we had a few hundredyears ago priest we had a few

(01:12:39):
hundred years ago, he, he is theone who I don't know.
I can't speak english anylonger.
You know, he's the reason wemight actually not say
scandinavia but say denmark,because he formed our country
and he, well, he made, he wasthe reason for changes in our
constitution and he made a lotof, took a lot of initiative,
wrote a lot of books and didbecome part of a defining change

(01:13:01):
in our culture.
And his thing was that realpeople were real people that you
know, no matter who you are.
He's behind the whole denels'Begreb, the whole idea of we
have to educate and informeveryone.
So he had the Heuskool he cameup with, which is.
So it takes half an hour toexplain to an American what it

(01:13:24):
is, because I think to anAmerican it just sounds like a
waste of time and money if youtry to say it in two minutes.
A waste of time and money ifyou try to say it in two minutes
.
And he also was against how theschool teacher had too much
power in the little villages,because if the school teachers
did homework then none of thekids were out in the fields

(01:13:46):
picking up potatoes and theywould starve in winter.
And he saw that and he was likeno, no, no, the parents need to
be in charge.
The family unit, not theindividual.
The family unit is the core ofour population, of our country.
This is where the hearts beat.
If the family unit is not a unitand it's not working together

(01:14:08):
and it's not powerful, thennothing is working.
We need to get that to work.
So we need to get homeschoolingin the constitution, so that
the school teacher is workingfor the family, not the other
way around.
He made that and that was sobig a change to put the little

(01:14:29):
guy, the average man, everyonein the center of of their own
lives and in the community.
He saw that we need to educateeveryone.
And that's another big deal youcan talk about if you talk with
an American coming fromScandinavia.
We get an education for free.
We're actually paid to take it,you get a salary.

(01:14:53):
You know people fall down theirchairs when you tell them that
you get a salary all six yearsof educate, of university.
You get a salary and then youget a hat and everybody's happy.
You don't pay for it and andthat comes basically.
Well, he was a big part of thatas well.
Yeah, we want to educateeveryone, but we also want that
formation of everyone.

(01:15:14):
So most people here, at leastin our generation, but also the
new, our daughter's generation,I don't know do they do it?

yeah, the high school, yeah, I don't know.

She and her friends do.
But do we know about thestatistics?
I would take that as my bubbleum, but they go to high school
at least once in their lives toform themselves yeah I mean my
daughter is doing after schoolright now.

yeah, and that's another thing which
is just like, I mean, and thatdoesn't exist in any
scandinavian country except fordenmark, and I just I, I mean, I
think it's such a brilliant,amazing, uh concept because you
know the years that they go toafter school.
If they, if you, if your childdoes go to after school, it's

(01:15:58):
just it's right at that timethat they're kind of pushing
away from you.
Anyway, you know, it's likeit's very normal part of the
teenage years that they're sortof and and and.
After school is so much, atleast the one she's at and the
ones I know about.
You know it's so much aboutDanica, yes, and I mean 75% of
my daughter's classes.
I can see they're all done.
It's like all Danica based andand just to think of that, that

(01:16:22):
crucial time of braindevelopment and formation and
you know, and that they have todeal with different issues and
to kind of get to knowthemselves, and it's wow'm like,
yeah, I mean I again, I'm justI'm really grateful to be here,
because both my children are are, for the moment, just really

(01:16:42):
thriving and um, and I, I do seeit so much because it's such a
different approach to educationand, um, of course I think I I
don't.
I want to keep my foot outsideof Denmark, because I really
like having the inside outside.
That's why I was saying I kindof have to stay out of it, so

(01:17:03):
that I don't get too in it.

Yeah.

Right.

The inspiration we get from being in another
country.
Living in another country isimmense.
For example, one of the thingsthat I found really fascinating
about the States were thecommunity around churches.
Some of our friends over therethey went to their local church

(01:17:28):
every week and that for them isweird because we are a very low
church going country.
But the community they hadtogether, those families that
met up there, that I was veryimpressed by, I really loved it.
And then of course there'speople saying, yeah, but then if
you're not in the church,you're not in the community.

(01:17:49):
But then again I, like you said, focus, focus on the positive,
which is to see.
I kind of miss what they had inthat community.
I'm like, okay, that could befun to see.
What is it they're doing?
They're meeting to cook up,they meet in the park to play
games.
Like a really good communitybased around a common interest.

(01:18:11):
Community based around a commoninterest and in in spain.

I got my, I got my worldview changed about.

When can a teen move away from home?
Because they're not even teens.
In denmark it's kind of normal.
You're 18, 19, you.
You hurry away because you andyou can say yes.
They do it, among other things,because they have a maturity
and it's cool.
They know how to behave and orbe as a person in in the world.
But I also like to see in spainhow they live together as a

(01:18:44):
family until you're in italy.

They never leave home, they just they
live.

They, you know until they're, I think 34 is the
average age that the man leaveshome.

I was just thinking.
We've been talking about thehigh school and we've been
talking about the after schooland I kind of defined that the
high school we.
We cannot explain it in threeminutes, but maybe would you
want to say what an after schoolis.

That's um, after school, uh, gosh.
Um, after school is a school,and you have to tell me if I'm
saying this right, but uh, Iguess it translates I don't know
, you have a child there.
I don't.
It's funny because I I've knownabout it for so many years and
I even when I didn't know if wewere going to be living in
denmark or not.
But it was always my dream tohave my kids go there, even if

(01:19:30):
we weren't in denmark.
So we actually went to HoySchool every summer with the
family in Denmark and learnedabout the Efteskola because we
knew we wanted to send them.
So Efteskola is like so it youhave to understand the Danish
school system, which goes up toage about 16, so grade 9, and

(01:19:50):
then you have grade 10, which iskind of an optional year, which
is very different to otherschool systems.
We don't have this optionalgrade 10.
So grade 10 you can eithercontinue to do school or you can
do EFTA Scola, which is thisspecial school where you're not
just learning academics, you'rekind of also doing if you have
specific hobbies.

(01:20:10):
So like you can go for sports,you can go for dance, you can go
for, oh my gosh, everything youfor dance.
You can go for, oh my gosh,everything you can think of.
They have Efteskola.
I forget how many they have,but they have a lot all over
Denmark there's a D&D one I justlearned.
Whatever you are into.
There is an Efteskola that hasspecializes in that and so you

(01:20:30):
go for a year.
You stay with other kids yourage and it's not very academic.
It's much more focused on thiskind of growing into a good
human right.
There's a lot of talk about youknow also what you're going to
do with your life and getting toknow yourself.
There's a lot of communalactivities, so the kids are

(01:20:51):
really encouraged.
I remember this really stood outfor me in the orientation day.
The teachers were saying ourobjective is in this thing we're
gonna, we want to make surethat they're going from I to we,
and that was wow and I and Ithink, yeah, so, um, it's really

(01:21:12):
.
It's kind of like a place wherethey sort of socialize, they
get to know themselves, they getto know how to work with other
kids their age.
They kind of figure out alittle bit more what they want
to do so that what they do after10th grade becomes more clear.
So you know, maybe they go formusic, maybe they go for, yeah,
different things, but theobjective is they sort of have a

(01:21:34):
little more clarity on who theyare as a person and where they
want to go and uh, it's, it's.

It's where a lot of danes will say it's a school
where they go to mature yeahit's a very dangerous thing
about the self-standard as well,because they are very young and
it's a boarding school.
You live there, come home.
There are some weekends whereyou can's a boarding school, you
live there, come home.
There are some weekends whereyou can choose, some weekends
where you have to go home, someweekends where you're not
allowed to go home and it countsas a school year in the point

(01:22:05):
system of being schooled enoughaccording to the law.
What was I saying it?
But I think it's an importantpart that you live there, but
it's not a I say the wordboarding school and then it all
falls apart, because then yousee something completely
different and then sometimes Isay, oh, it's like a boarding

(01:22:27):
school, but it's more like asummer camp.

It's so difficult to explain.
I've tried so many times.
Americans hear boarding schooland they think it's just it's
not my daughter, not a boardingschool.
But if you live at home so muchI'm almost like she comes home.
And you know, denmark is small,so like you jump on a bus, you
jump on a train, um, they'rehome, so and it's just, it's not
boarding school, it's, it'slike it's.

(01:22:49):
You know what it is, it'salmost like camp yeah, that's
what I say.

It's the other thing.
I think it's like you know whatit is.
It's almost like camp yeahthat's what I say.
It's the other thing I say it'slike summer camp, but for a
year.

Yeah that's right , yeah, and to take the high
school very shortly.
It's kind of the same for moregrownups, but with no school
year academic parts.
I went to in Danish they wouldcall it Filmhøyskolen.
In English they call it theEuropean Film College, but it
was the same.
Eight months emerged in a hobby, with like-minded and the most

(01:23:19):
amazing teachers, and focus onthe Danelse as well.

And you live there, and you live there.
Yeah, you're like a job.

Oh, Jessica, I could keep talking.
Let's go.
We are trying to round up.

I'll be back, yes, yes, first of all.

Uh, thank you for changing my view on the danish
parenting, because part of mehadn't seen it like it.
Sometimes it takes an outsiderto look at it and see the, the,
the tree fall the, or the forestfall the trees, or whatever I'm
trying to say I know what youmean.

(01:23:58):
We've talked enough by now,yeah no, but your perspective
have really sparked something inme that I I find very
interesting and I look forwardto I still have seven things on
my list Waiting for those sevennext time.
Next time.

Write it down.

Yeah.
So, Jessica, quickly, for thepeople who don't read the show
notes, please mention wherepeople can find the name of your
book, where they can find yourhomepage and also the digital
citizenship, also the digitalcitizenship.

Well, right now, my most important
message out is theRaisingDigitalCitizenscom,
because that's really our main,what we're really devoted to
right now.
My book is the Danish Way ofParenting, which you can find
everywhere.
You can go to TheDanishWaycomor Jessica Joelle Alexander and
I'm on Instagram Jessica JoelleAlexander and I'm on Instagram,
jessica Joelle Alexander, and,as always, like I said, raising
digital citizens conversationcards.

(01:24:59):
I really urge people to to getthat, that connection with their
kids, and don't say no, say no.

That's a wonderful place to stop.
Thanks a lot for your time.

It was a thanks guys, this was really
nice.

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Jessica Joelle Alexander | Danish Parenting Secrets: Raising Happy & Confident Kids

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Jessica Joelle Alexander | Danish Parenting Secrets: Raising Happy & Confident Kids