Manisha Snoyer | Unschooling, Community & Rethinking Education - Self Directed

Episode Transcript
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Jesper Conrad (00:00):
So today we are together with Manisha Snorja.
First of all, welcome to ourtalk, our little chat.

Manisha Snoyer (00:09):
It's so great to be here.
I'm so happy that we finallyhad a chance to connect.

Yes, so, manisha, for the people watching, I have
a little sun hat on.
And we moved from cloudyDenmark to France on.
And we moved from cloudyDenmark to France, and I saw
that you had a history withFrance, so if we could start

(00:35):
there.

Why do you speak French?
Absolutely I love France and Ithink the big reason that I
would teach I became a teacheris because of France.
I, when I was younger, Idreamed of becoming an actress
and I loved French films, and soin college I decided to study
at a French acting school.
It was actually going to be myfirst hack that I like kind of
like Gérard Darpeau-Dieu, I wasgoing to break into the French

(00:58):
scene as an American actress andthen become world famous from
there.
So I studied for three years ata place called Cours Florent,
an acting school, and duringthat time I needed a way to make
extra money and so I startedworking as a private tutor and I
taught a family that went tothe Australian high school.

(01:20):
I tutored another kid for anAmerican exam, and then I just
found that that was easy, bestside gig for me.
And when I moved back to NewYork I started my own, my first
business, which was a Frenchlanguage school for adults, and
and then I just started teachingeverywhere.
Eventually it was 18 subjects.
I became a bilingual sub forthe New York city public

(01:42):
education department and that'skind of how I got my in because
they weren't taking subs, moresubs at that time.
And then on the other side, Ithink that, you know, being
studying French in an actingschool really showed me the
power of experiential learningand having an emotional
connection to what I waslearning, because my verbal

(02:02):
skills accelerated so much morequickly in that environment than
my peers who are also in thestudy abroad program.

Yeah, what is it about teaching?
On our podcast?
Most often we talk abouthomeschooling, unschooling,
self-directed learning andtraveling, but there's something
.
Maybe it's the gift of sharingknowledge.
What is it for you that makesit a thing that you have been

(02:34):
attracted to?

Yes.
So it's funny.
Like many others inhomeschooling, I never wanted to
be a teacher.
It seemed like such an icky joband my mother was a teacher,
you know.
So I thought that's the lastthing I'll ever do, and I guess
I think that I see teaching as avery receptive art rather than
an active art if you're doing itwell.

(03:00):
And when I was a tutor, I waskind of called in when the
wealthiest, more affluentfamilies had a problem with what
their exceptional privateschool was doing, right.
So I was there to target likethe worst problem that a student
was facing.
And the more I taught, the moreit really became the art of

(03:21):
saying I don't know, what do youthink?
And having the student teach meback and learn themselves and
then explain it to me andoccasionally pausing or asking a
question.
And so I feel like you know,with Modulo we have tutors, but
they're really more likelearning coaches that are there
to support children throughtheir own learning.

(03:42):
So I think the highest form ofteaching is really just to be
able to build a secureattachment with a child and help
give them the confidence thatthey have the internal tools to
find out what they need to know.

Cecilie Conrad (03:59):
That sounds very much like parenting when you're
an unschooler.

Yes, exactly yes , it does sound a lot like
parenting and I you know, Ialways, you know Modulo
developed a tutoring programbecause people asked for it, and
I basically have thisphilosophy that if a parent
feels like something is a goodpath for their kid, then I will
do that.
But it wasn't actually my ideato start a tutoring program, and
so I feel like you know what I?

(04:25):
What I hope parents willunderstand is that they do have
the capacity to support theirchildren's own learning.
Sometimes, as a parent, it canbe a little bit.
You might need more troublestepping back, because it can
feel very scary to kind of letgo of your child's learning in a
way, and sometimes a mentor ora peer is better prepared to do

(04:49):
that.
I find that some of our besttutors are really high school
students because they've beenthrough it recently and they can
kind of help kids get wherethey need to go.
But yeah, I do think that everyparent has the capacity to
teach their child better than Ido.

I think we're skipping a little bit here.
So you're just.
You know, I've been lookingbriefly, but maybe the listeners
have never heard about you oryour project, so now we're
talking about your tutoringthing, and we were just in
France studying acting, so maybeyou should.

(05:27):
It went pretty fast, so maybeyou should say a little more
about what it is that you'redoing with.

Modulo?
Yes, absolutely, and so Modulois a marketplace for modular
learning, and when I talk aboutmodular learning, I'm referring
to the kind of homeschoolingthat's curating your child's
education through a combinationof learning experiences, social

(05:58):
experiences.
Self-directed learning could beco-op, could be online school,
but it's very highly curated,customized process and our
platform is there to helpparents find the right tools for
their unique child.
I have nothing against doingnothing.
I think unschooling can justpure unschooling letting your

(06:19):
child go to a library andexplore books or watch videos.
I love that but sometimesparents feel like they need some
tools and it's really the wildwest out there.
I mean, every kind of person isdeveloping curriculum and apps
and it's just really hard as aparent to sort through it all,
and what I've found is that whenchildren find tools that they

(06:40):
really love, it makes everythingelse happen so much more easily
.
So we've gone through and justvetted.
You know, basically my processhas been to kind of scour online
parenting forums and see whatpeople are saying about
different tools relative todifferent types of children and
then make it so anybody can findthe right tools for their child

(07:01):
.

So I had to make a note when you said I don't
have anything against doingnothing.
Just to clear it.
Yes, it's not against you, butI have a lot of listeners who
are in school and a lot oflisteners who want to unschool,
and I just want to clarify thatunschooling is very much.
Not doing nothing, oh,absolutely Doing nothing is not
what we do, and it's not whatunschooling is very much.

(07:25):
Not doing nothing, ohabsolutely Nothing, is not what
we do, and it's not whatunschooled children do.
And I know that you don't thinkso either.
Yes, thank you so much forhighlighting that.

Yes, because, as I was saying it, I realized how
that could kind of come acrossthe wrong way.
Because and you know what Iwhat I mean to say is that, like
there is a spectrum, you youknow, even within unschooling
there's a huge spectrum of howmuch you, as a parent, want to
be involved in your child'slearning process and how much

(07:55):
feels right with your family andum, and so a really beautiful
and powerful way to learn can beto just simply allow your child
to explore.
It's truly extraordinary and Ilove that form of education and
I I'm always trying to kind ofhold the hands of parents to

(08:20):
move towards that approach,towards the real schooling
approach, given that everything,so every single thing that's
happening in a child's lifeimpacts them, what environment
they're in, what books areavailable to them, what art
supplies are available to them.
So even in a very hands-offlearning experience, there are
so many things that are shapingthat child's experience.

(08:42):
Now, on the other hand, we haveparents at Modulo who really do
want to schedule every singlemoment of their child's day,
what tasks they want them to do,what curriculum, what tutors,
and my basic philosophy is that,if that is a parent's desire
and they feel that's the bestapproach for their child.

(09:03):
I'm going to believe in themand trust them and allow you
know, provide what support I canfor that path.
And so when I said like doingnothing, I think what I was
trying to really imply is like Ithink that I lean more towards
this side of the spectrum interms of what I would choose,
but Modulo is there to supportthe whole spectrum Does that

(09:25):
make sense.

It makes total sense.
I just wanted to make sure thatit was clear.
Yes, thank you for doing that.
So I knew for the listener,maybe you know.
So just to not mix things up,and I haven't checked out your
platform too much we I haven'tchecked out your platform too
much.
We have no personal need rightnow in our family.

(09:49):
But I think a key word we shouldthrow in here if we're, you
know, bouncing teaching versusunschooling and you know how can
we make sense of these thingsis the word voluntary.
Is the word voluntary becauseit's not about whether you have
a tutor or not, or whether youchoose to go through a high

(10:10):
school experience or you thinkokay, maybe, maybe I want to
know everything, math, and nowI'll find a specific course and
I'll find someone to help me getthrough it, because my parents
can't help me any longer.
I want to do that and for me,being an unschooler, the key is
that this idea has to well,maybe not even the idea has to

(10:34):
come from the child, becauseyou're allowed quote unquote as
a parent to come up with ideas,but the actual doing it, going
through it from my point of view, the important part is that
it's voluntary.
That makes it unschooling.
You can go to school and stillbe an unschooled child if you
chose to go there, right, andyour parents every morning can

(10:58):
tell you oh, you can stay homeif you want to.
I'm not going to be schoolpolice.
So yeah, I just wanted to.
It's not about whether you usea platform like Modulo or not or
any other platform for learning.
It's about whether the childgets to make that decision on
his or her own.

Absolutely, and it's such a I find you know,
kind of in the role I am tryingto support families.
It can be a very delicate linebecause you have kind of your
parents rights and then you havechildren's rights and some of
the, and because you're not alot.
I'm running a marketplace.
You know it's a business.

(11:38):
The people who are paying ourparents then, fortunately, you
know, I would like at some pointin the future to be there some
kind of kid cash cash as well.
But you know, the people that Ithink I'm really called to
serve are are the children, butthen they're also their parents,
and sometimes I'll run into asituation where I feel like a
parent is putting too muchpressure on their child, and

(12:03):
that's a challenge for me, right?
Because who am I to say howthey should parent their own
child?
And at the same time, I wantthis child to have the freedom
and so it's.
You know that's still somethingthat I, as a founder, I'm
trying to navigate and in my ownrelationship to this work, and

(12:23):
I don't have the best answer.

It sounds like a hard one because you're not in
the business of parentingcounseling.
Basically, that's not whereyou're selling.
You're selling tutoring.

So Well, you know, in a way, in a way we are,
because it's a marketplace forfamilies to find different
learning experiences and a lotof what Modulo does is talking
to parents and help, you know,help them kind of walk through
what's the next best step forthem.
But I think, like even in acounseling situation, you can't

(12:56):
really be an effective counselorif you're telling someone what
to do.
Right, I mean, you're being agood counselor if you're
answering their questions andresponding to their questions.
As a teacher, you deal withchild abuse.
We're a mandated reporter as ateacher if you have to say
something, if you see emotionalor psychological abuse.

(13:18):
But then is it illegal to forceyour child to do math homework?
No, is it my job to say don'tdo that, that's bad for your kid
?
I don't have all of theinformation.
How am I supposed to knowbetter than this family what's
right for their child?
And you know I need to respecttheir freedom as well.
So it's a you know it's atricky thing.

(13:39):
It's a tricky thing to walkthat line.
Yeah, it's delicate, Iunderstand.

But you are helping people who have chosen
to take the.
So let me start another place.
I presume most of the familieswho go to your marketplace is
from the homeschoolingenvironment, or is there also
families who wantextracurricular?
I don't know the percentage.
How is that?

Yes.
So Modulo is designed forhomeschooling families, but we
do have, I would say, 10 to 20percent of people whose children
are enrolled in traditionalschool and that I've become a
lot more direct with people andsaying this is not going to work
the way that you want it to ifyou're layering it on top of

(14:25):
school, because when a child ishomeschooling they are able to
study at the hours where they'remost fresh and focused and
they're learning for the sake oflearning.
Most of the time they're notlearning for catching up with
school.
So if a parent comes and says,well, like I want all these
benefits of Modulo, but I alsowant to send my child to school,
I say parent comes and says,well, like I want all these

(14:45):
benefits of modulo, but I alsowant to send my child to school,
I say, look, you know, doingthis type of work after school,
when your child is tired andtrying to conform to a school
standard which might not be theway their brain thinks, and you
don't really know what's goingon in class, it's just a whole
different ball game than doingmodular learning.

(15:06):
So I think probably a lot ofwhat I try to do is just give
parents confidence or help themtap into their natural
confidence to pursue what theykind of already know is the
right path for their kids.

What attracted you to support the homeschooling
community?
Have you been homeschooledyourself?
It doesn't sound like it, butyour mom was a teacher, so this
is.
Has there been a lot of familyfights at home where your mom is
like why are you supportingthem, Send them in school and
said that is the only rightchoice?

Yeah, no, my mom is first of all very
laissez-faire.
I don't think she said no to meonce in my entire childhood, so
that's uh, that's probably partof my attraction to unschooling
, but she, um, it's funny, Ithink that in a way we're kind
of reverse homeschoolers,because I was raised by a single
mom and when the she went forthe first day to drop me off at

(16:00):
daycare and I was upset and soshe just stayed the whole year
at daycare with me and neverleft, even though we were paying
for daycare.
And then she really wanted togive me a good education and we
there was a private Montessorischool in our hometown and in
order to afford it she became ateacher at the school, so that

(16:22):
so I was always running into herclassroom because I had this
natural inclination to be nearmy mom, so my mom came to school
instead of me coming to home.
But I think that my experience,my attraction to homeschooling,
was when I was a teacher in theNew York City Department of
Education and I saw theseprivate schools, public schools

(16:43):
after school, some of the bestpublic schools, some of the
considered most failing publicschools and I just was kind of
appalled by what I saw.
I mean I taught in dozens ofdifferent schools to all ages
and I just was.
The system was so broken andjust because you're paying

(17:03):
$60,000 a year, it doesn't meanthat your child is learning
anything Like.
The goals at that school were toprepare kids to get into Ivy
league universities and theywere answering to their board,
not to the, you know, not to thechildren.
And then and the kids were sostressed out Parents were crying
.
I had children throw up becausethey were under so much stress.

(17:24):
And that doesn't why at Daltonevery kid had four hours of
tutoring a night after schooljust to keep up with what was
going on in the classroom.
And then you go to.
You know, I taught anafterschool at risk program for
at-risk youth in at a title oneschool which people don't know
it's schools that are performingpoorly and so they get extra

(17:47):
funding.
And that was like I mean, just Icouldn't even believe what was
happening.
I saw a teacher hit a kid.
I saw parents picking theirkids up drunk.
I saw kids saying you know, mymom said if I don't do my
homework I'm going to get beat.
And the people are saying like,well, let's just see if they do
beat her and then we'll dosomething about it.

(18:08):
And I mean it's just like justatrocious schools that just felt
like prisons, just prison Likeyou were.
Just you were in a prison, allchildren of color, and one block
away was an all white school inthe same area in Brooklyn that
had like organic lunch, you know, I mean it just.
And then the really kind of goodpublic school.
I mean they had received somuch money from the PTA that

(18:31):
someone embezzled a hundredthousand dollars and no one
noticed for three years.
And yet in my music classroom Ididn't have a single instrument
that wasn't donated by the PTAin, even though that school was
getting 20,000 allotment perpupil.
And so it was just a mess.
And, and so I started hearingthese stories of parents who are
starting homeschool co-ops.

(18:53):
Like basically they were likeokay, public school is not
working for my kid, privateschool is $60,000 a year, I
don't even get in when I apply,and so let's just get a group of
parents together and hire ateacher.
And I thought that was prettycool, and at the same time I was
a host on Airbnb.
So I kind of made theconnection sharing economy,

(19:13):
homeschool co-ops, and I didwant to start a new company at
the time, and so I startedtalking to these homeschool
co-op leaders people like NoahMayers, who runs Brooklyn Apple
Academy and Park Slope leaders,people like Noah Mayers, who
runs Brooklyn Apple Academy andPark Slope and I was just blown

(19:34):
away by these homeschool co-ops.
The kids were thriving.
There was actually a child whowent through our program who was
about his doctor said if hestayed in school he was going to
have a heart attack.
He was 10 years old and thefamily had to sue the state in
order for him to go to a specialprivate school in New York.
And so eventually they decidedto go to a homeschool co-op and
within four weeks he's fine,zero anxiety, totally good.
And so I just kind of thinkinglike, why is this so, so

(19:57):
complicated?
All you need is a teacher, aspace, a group of kids, and I
kind of thought that was alittle bit naive.
But then I started discoveringthrough homeschool co-ops I
discovered homeschoolers, andthat's when I was really blown
away, because it was notreligious people sitting at a
kitchen table educating theirkids six hours a day with no

(20:20):
friends.
It was people in tech, softwareengineers.
It was activists, artists, youknow really.
And what was amazing too.
I mean, I still remember thefirst day I visited Brooklyn
Apple.
I asked if I just been emailingand emailing, and emailing.
And finally, they granted me avisit and I met them at the

(20:40):
Brooklyn Public Library and Isaw six kids just there's like
this staircase and the thing youhold on to to walk up the
staircase and they were allswinging around it like monkeys,
like crazy, and so I, everypart of my body, wanted to tell
them to stop and be safe.
I had, and I watched theteacher just let them swing

(21:04):
around the bar like monkeys andI realized what is this impulse
in me to contain thesechildren's energy that is so
strong.
It's almost like a reflex and Ikind of and that was like an
incredible awakening for me.
I just started meeting so manymore cool, talented you know the

(21:24):
best children's app developerin the world, homeschooling his
kids and other.
You know all these productdevelopers and techies and just
world famous photojournalists,and that's.
That was just the beginning ofmy journey and I fall more and
more in love with homeschoolersever since.
And I'll just say one morething I'm listening.

(21:51):
We are connected both to GordonNeufeld, and I think that his
book was really the kind of lastpiece in the puzzle for me,
Because I had my own question.
I saw these thrivinghomeschooling communities, but I
had some questions about.
You know, do kids need to be ina group of kids the same age?
And Gordon Neufeld's bookreally helped me see that this
idea of a peer culture beingneeded is false and that what

(22:13):
children really need to thriveis this secure attachment with
their primary caregiver, andfrom that foundation of love and
confidence social relationshipsflow.
And I feel like in this day andage we are so missing.
True communities that shareskills and resources is the only

(22:35):
example I've seen of whatcommunity should be like, what
true community should be, ofpeople who share their skills,
share childcare, share food andshelter with each other.
You know, if you want to travelaround the world and you're an
unschooler, you just say hey,who wants to host me in Chile or
Mexico?

(22:55):
And you, you travel and it'sand it's these communities that
are united around a shared valueof education.
And it doesn't always take thisform.
There are some homeschoolingcommunities that are exclusive,
but for the large part thepeople come together across
politics, across religion, andthey support each other because

(23:17):
they care about their children'seducation, and I think that
it's just an amazing thing.

That is one of the best speeches for
homeschooling I've heard in along time.
Well, something I would like totry to unpack together with you
was this aha moment.
We sometimes call it when westarted homeschooling or when
you do.
It's like opening the doors tonanya.

(23:46):
You're like what is happeningon this place of freedom.
But I want to talk about why doyou think we live in this or
have this instilled?
Oh, they cannot do that.
They cannot do that.
They shouldn't swing on thestairs and all these things.

(24:08):
Because I'm 50 and I think ithappened in my lifetime that the
world has gotten more scaredaround just letting kids be kids
.
It's peter gray also talk aboutthe value of free play and real
play.
I remember my mom saying oh,are you walking around?

(24:32):
The small we had like a smallkind of swamp thingy not a real
swamp and moss a moss, I thinkit's called in English and she
was like please don't go outthere.
And me and my brother we ofcourse, were out playing there
and fell in the water and neededto drag each other up.
None of us drowned.
We're still here.
We had a lot of fun and learneda lot, and today people would

(24:53):
be terrified to let theirchildren go out and just play.
So what do you think happened?

Yeah, so I guess I can speak more to the
institutionalized schooling rolethan I can to the cultural
shift in parenting.
But most of us experiencedinstitutionalized schooling and,
coming from a teachingbackground, I can tell you that
what teachers are trained to dois manage large groups of

(25:23):
students, because if you don'tdevelop good behavioral
management techniques, it's justgoing to be 30 kids yelling and
bouncing around for an hour,which is what children should do
.
That's the natural state ofchildhood.
Then, once we get to be 30, wehave to learn how to go to the
gym because we're sitting toomuch, right, but but I think

(25:45):
that's all I learned to do islike it's all about you know the
what is it?
Pavlovian dog or whatever.
Like how do you manage behavior?
You know and it's all.
And now the literature is allpositive rewards, incentives,
like you train behavior through,you know, remarking on good
behavior instead of punishingbad behavior.
But it's still behavioraltraining, and so everything that

(26:07):
we experienced as children waspeople managing our behavior.
That's what we think of when wethink of a parent or a teacher.
It's people who've developedall of these techniques to get
us to do you know what we wantthem to do, and so, of course,
that's that's all we know aboutbeing a parent or being a
teacher.
Is that my role is to managethis child's behavior, a totally

(26:40):
different person who insteadallows a child their freedom and
trusts that when you allow achild their freedom, you have to
go against all of yourconditioning, all of your role
modeling.
You know, I mean, that's basicsocial learning theory.
Kids learn by watching adults.
That's how you learn.
So I think the first step isjust to have some compassion for
yourself, and that's what you.
That's all you know about beinga parent, because that's all
you've seen.
And so what are some otherexamples that you can see?

(27:02):
What are some other things youcan try to get used to this new
approach?
For me it happened very quickly, you know, once I realized like
, oh, I don't have to do that.
Then all of these differentpossibilities started emerging.

But isn't it also very contextual?
I often say when I speak aboutunschooling that if I had to be
the responsible adult around 25nine-year-olds for seven hours,
five days a week, I wouldprobably invent school.

(27:36):
Absolutely.
It wouldn't be safe.
I would need them to sit down.
I would need them to payattention to whatever I was
asking them.
Maybe I could do slightlybetter than what we see in
public schools, but I wouldstill have to have the
discipline.
And I think you know, in nohuman natural culture we have

(27:57):
organized childhood around sameage peer groups of this large
amount of children.
It's not natural to humans,which means we've created a very
artificial space and behavioris very contextual.
And behavior is very contextual.
How we behave is based on wherewe are, who we are around, what

(28:21):
we feel, how much sunlight, howhungry are we, is there a
confined space, how much oxygenis in the room?
There's so many factors andwe're creating a very, very
artificial, weird context forchildren to grow up in.
So in a way, it makes a lot ofsense that we have to manage it

(28:43):
because, yeah, whereasunschooling or natural learning
could you can call it whateverdoesn't have to have that
unschooling hat usually happensin the context of family life,
community life, the neighbors,your friends, people you've
known for a long time, and theword voluntary comes back into

(29:06):
that equation.
Your friends are someone youchoose, not someone you happen
to be in a classroom with, andthen the job for the
quote-unquote teacher that couldbe the parent or the neighbor
or whatever is to just create aspace where learning can happen.
So, we don't have to plan it, wedon't need the curriculum, we

(29:30):
don't need the positivereinforcement push because, well
, if we do trust the process,the, the learning will happen,
if there is.
You said before, you know you,you choose the art supplies, you
choose with the means you have.
You know what books are on theshelf, where do you live, how
much heating do you turn on,what times of day, and there can

(29:53):
be many factors that arelimited by other things than
your choice.
It could be money, it could behealth, but still you create a
space and then learning canhappen, should be able to happen
, in that space.
But we're not managers.
We don't need to check it, wedon't need to take it, we don't
need to grade it, we don't needto push, we don't need to plan

(30:17):
it.

Absolutely, and I love the empathy that you have
for teachers in that situation,because even when you go from a
dynamic of, you know, maybegiving a math lesson to one
child versus two children, thewhole, everything changes about
that experience.
And I guess another aspect ofthis too is that when you are, I

(30:40):
think that sometimes whenpeople think of unschooling,
they think of oh you know, somekid just runs around and does
whatever they want and has asmuch money as they want, and,
and I think another way ofthinking about it and of course
you know everybody has adifferent approach, and so this
is just how I think about it isthat you're starting from this
foundation of a very lovingrelationship and in a

(31:04):
relationship you need to ask theother person for things.
Sometimes you need to say no tothe other person, like you
wouldn't ever, never say no toyour partner, or never say I
don't like it when you do that,or like I can't exist fully in
the way I need to exist.
If you're doing that, it's, andin the same way with your child
, you know, if you're, you know,contextualizing, it's like we

(31:27):
have a loving relationship andyou know, if you throw a rock at
that kid's face.
I don't feel comfortable beingin this space with you right now
and we're leaving and that'sstill.
You know, and I think you knowthat's kind of an extreme
example, but I think one I giveparents.
A lot is around like recordingvideos on the iPhone, because

(31:49):
I've had a couple of parents sayI don't know what to do because
my kid won't edit their videos.
They just want to filmeverything and they don't ever
want to edit it.
And the first thing I say isare you paying for more iCloud
storage?
Because you can stop doing that?
And then they are either goingto have to edit their videos or
not record any more videos, andalmost 100% of the time I find

(32:11):
out they are paying for moreiCloud storage.
And so it's like you can givefreedom if you're in this loving
space where you're taking careof your own needs and supporting
your child in the way that theyneed to be supported, given
their developmental abilities.

You know yeah, but I mean I might come out
wrong.
Um, when I when I talked beforeabout not managing, because
obviously in my mind, obviouslywe do unschoolers do interfere
somehow.
Yes, not just set the scene,but also interfere.

(32:48):
I think some unschoolers can beslightly afraid of interfering
and some do it more, and I'm notbeing judgmental, it's just a
spectrum.
But I don't feel I manage.
I just usually say I adjust,and I also use the word um
around the kids.
So I say I'm going to adjustthis situation.
Um, sorry, old adults, half ofthem so, but but still.

(33:16):
And then I ask often, I ask forpermission can I please adjust
this situation?
I feel there's a bad vibe, or Ifeel we need to talk about the
ethics, or I feel we'reoverdoing this.
So could we adjust?
Because I feel this is not abad thing.
A, that you're doing is not orwe're doing is not a bad thing,
but as we're doing it so much atthe moment, b is suffering, so

(33:40):
we're not doing B and B isclearly suffering, so we need to
do some more B.
This is my adjustment and I'mthe adult, but I think, well, we
are.
Sometimes he's actually.

I'm kind of adult as well he's.

Actually I'm kind of bad on that as well, so
I but I think the reason thatthese adjustments work work,
that I I get to do this andsometimes it goes the way I I
was thinking, so we do more b isbecause we have this
relationship and I'm not tryingto manage their life and I do
not have a huge set goal ofwhere they or we are going.

(34:26):
And also, very often, you know,they will tell me some parents
call it, talk back, I'm happy,we're having a communication.
So they will say we're doing alot of A.
Right now we see that B issuffering, but right now A is
very easy to do and we have allthe settings for it.

(34:47):
So we can do a little bit of B.
But we can do more B on Sundaywhen it's raining, because then
we will have a lot of time andthey give me something I didn't
think about and then we adjustmy adjustment.
So it becomes this circle ofeveryone gets to say what they

(35:07):
mean, which means they canadjust me.
Basically, I don't like theword democratic, I think it's a
weird word, no.

no, but it's respectful dialogue.

It's not like I am this king of the universe and
they are my little minions.

So beautiful.
I mean, there's so manydimensions to what you're saying
and I feel like it's sorefreshing to be having a
conversation about the nuancesof different educational
philosophies and approach and Ijust my heart really feels for
anyone listening who might feellike this feels off to my
approach or how I think abouteducation, because the last

(35:46):
thing I would ever want to do issay like this is the best way,
this is the absolute way, andit's so exciting to be having a
conversation where we can talkabout approaches like adjustment
or natural consequences oroperating from a foundation of
love and giving the other persontheir freedom, and someone else

(36:07):
can say, oh, I have a slightlydifferent approach, and then
that approach informs myapproach.
No-transcript.

Not every parent can do that would be a unicorn.

When we grew up.
Every parent can do that withtheir own child, right?
Every parent can have thatfoundational relationship,
especially if there's not thatdivide between school and home,
because that's something else.
It's like you're constantlyadjusting the way that you
relate instead of having a fluidrelationship like you described
.

I also think maybe one of the reasons school
systems fall apart is that youdon't they're not made with a
space for that relationship tohappen.
I was in, I think, fivedifferent basic schools before I
was 15.
I think you were in the same.

Same all the time .
Yeah.

The school system that we grew up with in
Scandinavia some 40 years agoago.
It was designed to make, atleast to create the option for
this kind of relation to happen.
So you had a main teacher.
They would teach Danish, theywould often also teach religion

(38:00):
sometimes even history.

We have something we call the hour of the class,
so we have one lesson every weekjust allocated for relations,
and as an example, I had thethey call it the class teacher.
I had her from grade one till Ileft school and she followed me
through my whole developmentand it was both strong, but also
she was not my mom, uh, so sothere's this difference, but the
, the level I, I think theteachers, the three main

(38:24):
teachers I had, didn't change in10 years.
That was very secure.
They knew who I was, I knew whothey were and grow the
relationship.

there's the option of growing the
relationship if that's how theschool is designed, and in
Scandinavia it's.

It was.

I don't know if it's still like that.
It was like that.
So you would very likely havethe same main group of teachers
for 10 years, which gives youthe and it's a big
responsibility to say, yes, I'llbe the main teacher of this new
class starting, because youkind of promised your boss to
stay for 10 years.
It's a big deal to let go ofthat.

Nobody would do it today Ask someone else to
step in.

And also I have the impression that it's not the
same in the US, but inScandinavia you have one base
room where all the teachinghappens, so it's a little bit
more like a home.
You don't move around, you're inthe same physical space unless
you're doing PE or physics orsomething that requires a
different room, or the cookingclasses that we also have, and I

(39:34):
think this design is a betterdesign.
I'm still against schooling,basically, I admit it, but it's
a better design, um, than aschool where the kids have to
move around all the time.
The teachers they change everyyear because now you're in grade
five, so you have the gradefive teacher, and it becomes
very much about the grade andthe and the material you're

(39:55):
studying and not so much aboutthe relation that is the root of
the learning journey.
So we we could, if we wanted toreform the school system, look
a little bit at I mean, it's aninteresting conversation the
conversation between theexperiences of the unschoolers
and the homeschoolers and howthe school system works.
So if we shouldn't do what Isometimes say we should do burn

(40:20):
it down then maybe we shouldlearn from each other.

Yeah, have an evolution.
I am sitting with thesethoughts On our podcast.
We have had some wonderful,wonderful people during the time
Gordon Neufeld, who I now havethe pleasure of working together
with, which is just a dreamcome true.
Peter Gray, and recently mymind was blown by Sugata Mitra.

(40:47):
And then we've talked withunschooling pioneers like Sandra
Dodds, sue Elvis and all thatwrote down there, and I am
looking so unschooling, radicalunschooling, in combination with
the thoughts from Gordon andhis thoughts about how

(41:11):
connection is shaped andchildren grow up, how connection
is shaped and children grow up,with Sugata Mitra's about how
learning emerges in groups evenmore, and with the Peter Gray
vibe of free play.
I'm like, what will that bedefined as?
Because it's not pureunschooling, it's something else

(41:32):
.
I'm still looking for words todescribe it, but there is an
overlap where I'm just like oh,I want to explore what this
overlap is, because I think formany people who start a
homeschooling journey many ofthe ones we have met during our
now many, many years they havestarted with having their kids

(41:55):
in school.
Experiencing that is not awonderful place for them to be.
Like you said, your ownexperience of being a teacher
was hard For parents who havetheir kids in that system.
Some of them are like this isnot working, let's take our kids
out, but then you often takethem home to this world we now

(42:16):
live in, where we have thesenuclear families, where we are
small units, where we don't havechildren playing at the street
every day, we don't have the notnecessity of the peer group,
but who are you supposed to havefree play with if people only
have two kids per family?
So there is this reallyvaluable thing about the co-ops

(42:47):
that are.
Denmark was just not big enoughfor us to.
Yeah, let me rephrase thatDenmark has not had unschooling
and homeschooling so long thatwe were lucky to be in
Copenhagen where there wereother unschoolers, and when I
went to work, cecilia, most ofCecilia's time spent being there
in the home with the family andthen going to social excursions

(43:10):
with other homeschoolers inCopenhagen to meet up with all
the others to create this.

One of the big jokes about homeschooling is
that home is part of the word,because you're never home.

Yeah.

We've laughed about that a lot.
You say you homeschool butyou're actually never in your
home because you're always outand about at a museum or a
grandmother's place or meetingup with the other homeschoolers
in the park or, yeah, going towhatever.
So I think you're kind of alittle bit wrong there.
I stand corrected.

I think that you're both right.
For me, the essence of all ofthese philosophies and all of
the people I've met does comeback to this true community idea
.
How do we find true communityand how do we build true
community?

(44:05):
And I think that this naturalurge for parents to provide to
learn, this natural urge tolearn I mean for me, right now
we're on this podcast so we canlearn right, we're receptive,
we're excited, we're askingquestions, we're being
challenged.
I'm different now than I was 20minutes ago, and so it's so
sacred learning.
And for some reason, learninghas to happen in community and

(44:28):
communities need each other tothrive and, because of so many
different factors, there arefewer and fewer places that
communities gather.
You know some of us don't go tochurch.
You know they're not into that.
School is one place wherepeople gather, but it's not
ideal.
And so there's a researcher Ilove, daniel McFarland, who

(44:49):
talks about network ecology ofschools, and he found that
schools that are smaller andunite around a shared value of
education have lower rates ofaddiction than schools that are
bigger and revolve around sharedvalues of team sports.
Now, I love sports.
I think that's a great way toconnect, but I feel like that.

(45:11):
When I read that study, I Iunderstood something very, very
deep about my attraction tohomeschooling, which is that you
go to communities like SanFrancisco, the hugs, sf
unschoolers, or you see Brooklyn, apple Academy in New York City
or different directions, andyou find these or cultural roots
, homeschool co-op and inVirginia, and there are these

(45:34):
communities that they have foundit.
They are parents and teachersand children of all ages who are
sharing and who are togetherand that, I think, is really
what's extraordinary.
And then I guess the otheraspect of this, when you talk
about what unites all thesepeople, is just how do you

(45:57):
center education around thechild and their needs and the
family and their needs.
Like even there's so many edtech companies that are building
products for schools, becausethose are the people buying the
products and the products are soboring and painful for children
to use.
But you know how?
About a company like Tokaboka?

(46:19):
That is like watching childrenuse their product and they're
building something reallyamazing for children.
And then freedom comes in right, because you trust this child's
desire to learn, you honor thatand then you know it all flows
from there that and then youknow it all.

It all flows from there.
I think the misconceptionreally is it's twofold.
One is that we try to plan theeducation of the children and
the other thing is that it'schildren and we try to push the
learning as young as possible.
So if they start reading atthree, we can't get our arms
down and if we, if they don'treading, read at eight, we, we

(47:01):
can't sleep at night.
But really does it matter?
Does it matter?
Does it really matter?
It doesn't.
And I think that's one problem.
And the other is, you know theidea that it has to be all about
education.
If we really trust the process.

(47:22):
Learning is a byproduct ofliving.
Learning is something thathappens if you live a passionate
life.
You cannot help learning.
That's why we're having funhere.
We're not doing this podcast topromote our businesses.
We're actually doing it becausewe like the conversation and,

(47:45):
as a byproduct, we learnsomething.
We get new thoughts, new ideas,and the same thing happens for
children.
So Gautam Mitra has this verybeautiful insight into how it
happens in community that ithappens more in a natural way
when more than one child istogether, so a group of two or

(48:06):
three or four children or adults.
It actually has nothing to dowith the age, with the age.
Exploring, being curious,laughing, being tired, going for
a walk, making some food,calling grandma, watching
Netflix, whatever you do, ifyou're just slightly excited

(48:26):
about doing it, it's becausethere's something there, because
otherwise it would be boring.
And an interesting thing abouthumans is that we will do almost
anything to not be bored.
We hate being bored becausebeing bored is learning nothing.
Yes, it's impossible, and so Ithink this hyper focus on

(48:50):
education, hyper focus of it'slike in factory, we try to
shovel things in there in theirbrains instead of understanding
that that living life with apassion will put us in
situations where we learn a lot,and we learn way more than if

(49:11):
we have to look at some boringstuff we're not interested in
and that we don't get why wehave to learn it.
So, yeah, I'm ranting on and Iforgot where I started.

I mean what you say makes so much sense.
I mean it's a lot of this stuffis just really obvious.
Like if you explain to a childwhy they need to learn to read,
it's going to make it much moremotivating to learn how to read.
And that's just so obvious andso often we do not even take
that basic step of understandingourselves.
It's just just do it becauseyou have to.

(49:44):
That's it.
I mean that's so rudimentary.
You know, I did.
I wanted to say I wanted to goback to your question about
community, though, and havingdifficulty finding like-minded
community, because when parentsask me, how do I even start
homeschooling?
I always the first thing I sayis find a local homeschooling

(50:04):
meetup and go.
If a parent says I'm feelingreally overwhelmed, I feel like
I'm not doing a good jobhomeschooling, find a local
meetup and go, because there isso much social pressure against
homeschoolers and unschoolers,like people in your family are
telling you you're crazy,because it's still
counterculture and so you needthis community to say oh okay,

(50:27):
this is what this, this personsupports what I'm doing.
At one point they were feelingoverwhelmed and then they got
over it.
Or oh, that kid is older thanmy kid and they still don't know
how to read.
Oh, or this kid just got intoStanford and he learned how to
read when he was 10, you know,and you are interacting with
these people who can share ideasand support and advice, and so

(50:48):
that's just essential.
And if you don't have that, youdon't need to go to some fancy
co-op.
All you have to do is get aboard game post to your local
group and say I'm having a gamenight on my house at Thursday
night.
Anybody who wants to come overand play board games come.
You have a whole activity kidscan do together.

(51:08):
If you're shy, you can go offin the other room, not interact
with anyone, cause some peoplehave social kids and they're not
social or the reverse.
So board game is like theperfect other thing.
Unstructured park day go to yourplayground post in your local
group.
We're hanging out at theplayground on Thursdays.
Anybody want to come?
Come, and that is those twothings.

(51:31):
Unstructured park day and boardgame night are just win-win
situation for building communitywith homeschoolers.
That can be that simple and youknow, from there you go through
the stages of community.
First of all, it's like sohappy, everybody loves each
other.
Oh wait, now there are somethings that we don't love so
much about each other.
Okay, are we going to workthrough this and become a real

(51:53):
community?
Are we just going to part waysand then eventually you become
to this ripe, juicy, beautifulthing that nourishes your whole
life?

Or you find another community.
Yes, exactly, they were allweirdos.
It happens, it happens, whichis all right.
I mean, it's also.
I think I actually put a littlehighlight with the community
word because I don't want todisencourage the newcomers.
And if you think, oh, that'sgoing to be really hard because

(52:24):
I'm in a country where it'sillegal to homeschool, or I'm in
a country where there's so fewhomeschoolers I can't find
anyone, or my kids don't havethe same age or religion or
whatever, so that's going to beimpossible.
I'm going to give up.
I think you can even starthomeschooling without the
community.
Find an online community, maybe, where you, as the adult, can

(52:44):
chat with someone, becauseyou're going to need that.
Take the kids out of school.
See what happens.
Very often there's a neighborwhose kids are in school, but
they're good friends anyway.
Very often there's a neighborwhose kids are in school, but
they're good friends anyway.
And maybe there's a churchwhere there's embroidery nights
every Tuesday and it's mostlyelderly women and some young
women, and then your littleseven-year-old, and they're

(53:06):
having fun.
So sometimes these communitiesdon't have to revolve around the
homeschooling.
Lots of things can happen andthey usually do.
I've seen it when people starthome educating.
So, yeah, yeah, doesn't allhave to be this epic.
You know group of friends, ofof un and homeschoolers that you

(53:27):
know happen to me three times aweek and you, you celebrate
christmas together.
It doesn't have to be like thatto be good, it can change, it
can evolve.

I usually just tell people, give it a little
time, because sometimes that kidpeople will organize a play
date.
The kids don't have thismagical hit it off romance and
it becomes almost like onlinedating.
You know, I was like come on,like it might take a month to
kind of get things going.
You know, give it time to getto know people a little bit.

But in general, yeah, yeah, I mean, pick your
friends, why not?
When you mentioned board gaming, it just occurred to me that
it's one of the things we haveenjoyed so much, both with other
people, but also as we arefull-time travelers.
There are games where you don'tneed the language.
If there's a language barrier,you can play.
And I just wanted also to givea shout out to our dear, dear
friend, erika Davis-Pieter, whohave a yearly game school

(54:26):
conference.
Well, I mean, it's a lot ofhomeschoolers meeting up once a
year just playing board gamesfor a weekend, and it is epic.
We should go, we should, yeah,yeah, we should go next year.

Yeah, and I just I'm gonna just add here.
I mean, if anybody is listening, I keep talking to these
listeners, I know, but I, I hopewe have some.
Yes, if anyone is listening andsays there is no homeschooling
community near me, oh gosh, Iwish I had a friend.
I'd love to meet someone online.

Just send me an email, I will hook you up,
guaranteed, so you're not alonebut, manisha, it's also time
because it has been a wonderfultalk where we have explored a
lot of really good subjectstogether.
But for people out there who islike, oh, in the start, this

(55:22):
talked about this project shehas.
Where do I find it and what isit?
You offer Not the 10 minutesales pitch, but just like for
the people who are like what isit?
What is it when she said it's amarketplace?
How is it?
She's connecting people.

So if you can give a short introduction, Sure,
and thank you so much forinviting me to share.
So my company is Modulo.
You can find it at moduloappM-O-D-U-L-O, dot A-P-P, and if
you can go to the site, you cansearch for curriculum.

(55:59):
Answer some questions aboutwhat activities your child
enjoys, do they have specialneeds?
And we'll recommend a math andan English language arts and a
full curriculum.
We're adding on more subjectsand then we also have a
directory of resources that has18 different subjects and so you
can read reviews of differentprograms.
We also have an onlinecommunity, so there's the free

(56:21):
community where you get all thecontent I'm constantly producing
videos and then we have a paidmembership where you can get a
little bit more tailored supportand talk to other parents, and
you know, mostly it's very easyto go on Modulo and contact us
me directly at this point, andI'm just here to answer any
question you have.

But how many tutors are involved?
Is it you tutoring everyone?

Yeah.
So I guess when you think aboutmodule, we have different
modules, so we have tutors,clubs, curriculum, and so if
you're looking for a tutor tofit your child's needs, we do
have about a hundred differentvetted tutors and we can.
If there's a new subject thatwe don't have, we can find a

(57:06):
tutor for you and we'll connectyour I think of them more as
learning coaches.
We'll connect them with acurriculum and a coach and you
can set up recurring meetingswith that tutor and get progress
reports about how your child islearning.
And, by the way, both childrenand teachers fill out progress
reports for each other afterevery single session, so it's

(57:29):
really driving their ownlearning.

Yeah.

Leveled.

But it's a wonderful way to learn from
someone who is passionate abouta thing.
That is one of the things I.
I love myself learning fromsomeone more than from man.
So book is wonderful.
I love books, but if there issomeone who is passionate about
a subject, I just love listeningto them.
It is time I'm going to cry.

(57:59):
No, I really enjoyed the talk,so thanks a lot for your time.
It has been a pleasureexploring these subjects
together with you.

Thank you so much.
I mean, you really woke up mypassion and so apologies for all
the shouting and talking overover, but it was my favorite
kind of conversation and I feellike it's just the beginning.
There's so many other topics Iwant to talk to you about, so
I'm so happy that that we knoweach other now yeah, it's great
it's great.

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Manisha Snoyer | Unschooling, Community & Rethinking Education

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