March 18, 2025 • 36 mins
Resource guarding can transform even the sweetest dog into a possessive, growling guardian overnight. This revealing conversation with Karen, owner of Rupert—a lovable yet challenging cockapoo—takes you behind the scenes of living with a resource guarding dog who has actually bitten.
Karen doesn't sugarcoat the reality: some days it's scary, frustrating, and filled with self-doubt. Yet she shares the remarkable ways she's learned to work with Rupert's limitations rather than against them. From the hilarious hedgehog-under-the-saucepan incident to managing stolen socks and pants, you'll discover practical strategies that transform confrontation into cooperation.
The most counterintuitive lesson? When your dog steals something valuable, your natural reaction is precisely what you shouldn't do. Lauren and Karen explain why making a big deal about stolen items only intensifies guarding behaviors, and offer genius alternatives like "toy box" games that sidestep confrontation entirely. They detail the subtle warning signs most owners miss—the stillness, the whale eye, the obsessive return to spaces—signals that appear long before growling or biting.
What makes this episode particularly powerful is its honesty about the genetic components of resource guarding and the limitations of training. Not every dog behavior can be "fixed," but with the right approach, even serious resource guarders can live happy, fulfilling lives. Whether you're currently struggling with a resource guarding dog or want to prevent these behaviors from developing, these practical, compassionate strategies will transform your relationship with your dog. Ready to turn resource guarding challenges into opportunities for deeper connection?
Check Out 10 Days to Stop Resource Guarding
https://absolutedogs.me/resourceguarding
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lauren Langman (00:09):
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers and it's my mission
to help owners become theirdog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Okay, we're talking resourceguarding, and I know, karen, you
(00:32):
are joining me today to sharewith all of our listeners how it
is really living with aresource guard and living with a
dog who really does have somefairly extreme resource guarding
examples, but also a dog who islovable, who plays games, who
games have really transformedhim in so many ways, and yet you
still have a level of resourceguarding in there that
definitely needs managing, andsometimes on a daily basis.
(00:54):
Tell us about it.
Karen (00:56):
So yeah, so he's a brilliant dog.
He's so much fun, he loves games, he loves tricks, he loves
everything that we do here, andhe will still struggle with
disengagement as a concept.
So the ability to kind of leavethings alone, let things go, and
, in the sense of resources,that can manifest as hovering
(01:18):
over stuff growling, if you gonear him when he's got something
that he thinks he should have,that you maybe want back or
don't think he should have.
He has bitten um, notfrequently, but he has and I
know it's in there um, so, dayto day, it's a question of
managing his environment interms of not putting him in
situations where there arethings he can get hold of that I
(01:38):
don't want him to have, orthings that are not safe for him
to have.
Um, and then also skilling himup so that, even if
disengagement is not his biggestskill, there are alternative
ways we can deal with it.
So if he's got something, Iknow, for example, that I can
turn this into a game oreffectively turn this into a
trick that he enjoys and thenflip it, flip this, flip the
(02:01):
story, and then I can get thething back, but not because he
thinks he's given up the thing.
Lauren Langman (02:08):
And it's so interesting hearing that from an
owner's perspective, because Iknow that you are a really
intelligent owner.
You're a really savvy owner,you work with what you've got
and you work with the dog infront of you.
But deep down some days, howdoes it feel owning a dog that
might bite?
And how does it feel owning adog that might bite?
And how does it feel owning adog that you have to work with
(02:29):
in this way some days?
Karen (02:30):
some days it's scary.
Some days you think, why am Inot making more progress with
this?
And I think some days you alsothink why is mine the dog that
can't do this and does do that,and why do I not have an easy
dog?
He's my first dog.
Did I do something wrong?
Was there something that Ishould have done when he was
younger or something I did whenhe was younger?
(02:50):
That's kind of made it worse.
You go through all of thosethoughts, I think.
Lauren Langman (02:54):
And I remember feeling exactly this with Poppy
and I know we've worked togethertoday with some of my dogs and
I said look simple, simple,simple.
But I also know complex, becauseI've owned complex and I've
owned dogs who are just likesome humans Some are more
complex than others I think andsome have different struggles
and some have different areas togrow in, and I know that Rupert
and Poppy certainly sit for mewith the dog category of
(03:18):
certainly more to grow and moreskills for the owner to have.
I feel like Poppy qualified mevery well in naughty but nice
dogs and Poppy qualified me verywell in dogs that have real
disengagement struggles and Ifeel very well equipped to
handle a reactive dog, and Iknow that you are, and I know
that not every dog is likeRupert.
And yet there are peoplelistening today that are going
to struggle and struggle withresource guarding and there are
(03:40):
future people that are going topick up dogs just like Rupert
who are going to have this inthe next 10 years, 15 years, 20
years, as long as this podcastgoes out there.
Now, when I think about that,let's think about our top tips
and our strategies for dogs likeRupert, because we can talk
about dogs like Rupert untilwe're blue in the face, but
actually really you've got a fewoptions.
One is you rehome that dog.
Two is you put that dog tosleep.
(04:01):
Three is you work with the dogin front of you and potentially
put some management situationsin there or some management
potential Now for us.
We're always going to go downthe management route.
Typically, or potentially,we're going to home the dog if
we really can't handle it andput to sleep, really as a last
resort or option.
But when you do have dogs thatbite, they're in a family, and
they're in a family with smallchildren or they're in a family
(04:22):
with vulnerable people.
I think we do have thoseconsiderations to take fairly
seriously.
Now, in some ways, you're in agood scenario for him because
it's you and him and actually,being you and him, you can
manage things fairly easily.
I know it's slightly moredifficult when you have the cat
involved, but actually it's youand him largely, sometimes your
parents and sometimes friendsand family, but actually
typically you and him.
Karen (04:49):
What are some of our top tips for handling a dog like
Rupert?
So I think if we're talkingresource, resource guarding
specifically, then definitelyone of the biggest things is not
to make an issue of things,particularly things that he's
got, that he thinks areimportant.
Because if he thinks it'simportant and then I tell him
it's important, by making a bigdeal about the fact that he's
got the important thing, thenthe thing becomes more important
and then the disengagementstruggle becomes way, way worse,
(05:09):
so hard as it is when he'sstolen things that I don't want
him to chew or that couldpotentially be dangerous, and
there will be a.
I mean, if he had somethingsuper duper dangerous which he
never has, then there wouldpotentially be a pointer which
you would just have to kind oftry and stop that happening.
But in the majority of cases,things like he's stolen my socks
(05:31):
or he's stolen my pants and Idon't want him to chew a big
hole in the crotch of myfavorite pants, or he's got hold
of a 20 pound note before Idon't really want him to chew up
a 20 pound note because that'squite expensive.
But the more you kind of flapand make an issue of it and go
towards him and make him knowthat you want the thing back,
the more he wants the thing.
Lauren Langman (05:49):
Now one of my clients, their dog, ate a
fishhook and another one of mydogs, or my client's dogs,
picked up a razor blade.
So those are the sorts ofthings you do, go, dear Lord,
and another client's dog had aserious operation with an
acupuncture needle and soremoving the acupuncture needle
and all of these things arepotentially life threatening,
(06:11):
and I think that's givingKaren's comments some context.
Those things make you suddenlygo hang on a second.
What do I need to do now?
But even then, in thosescenarios, sometimes rushing in
is still going to end in thewrong result.
So I completely agree and notgiving it more importance and it
already has because of the factthat he's now parading with it
or got it and is very aware thathe's throwing your pants in the
air.
And when you've got out of thesituation you can kind of see
(06:35):
the funny side.
But in that situation it isquite tough, isn't it, to see
the funny side?
Karen (06:39):
Yeah, definitely, either because he's got something you
don't want him to have, orbecause you're worried what he
might do with the thing he's got, or because I mean there have
been situations where he's gothold of something and I've
needed to do something but Ican't, I don't want to leave him
with the thing, because even ifI've kind of decided that I'll
just kind of deal with the it'sgot, you never mind, I can get
(07:01):
another one or it'll go in thebin.
Even if you've kind of dealt,it's still not safe necessarily
for him to keep the thing andyou go out, or there has to be
an element of safety that Ican't just leave him to to chew
the thing and then potentiallyswallow the thing if I'm not
there, because sometimes goingout, leaving him to it, would
(07:22):
potentially be the best option,because you've diffused the
situation by leaving thesituation and can't you think
about so many healthy adultrelationships.
Lauren Langman (07:30):
You're like, actually, if I just leave this
situation because there is areal like you can, you can
actually relate this to so muchuh, human behavior.
Right, but you're right,actually by doing that you've
kind of given away yourresponsibility there and
actually in that moment, if heswallows that and if he chews
all of that, he eats all of thatand it ends up in intestine and
he's a major operation hedoesn't make it.
Suddenly you have a differentlevel of thought process and you
go.
Maybe I made the wrong decisionhere hard, yep.
Karen (07:54):
Um, he's had a hedgehog in the house once, which
obviously was not ideal.
Um, that's not a situation youcan walk away from, because
there's a hedgehog which youwant to rescue, there's a dog
which really can't swallow ahedgehog and there's a situation
that has to be handled.
But again, it's not a situationwhere you can kind of go in and
(08:14):
try and take the hedgehogeither.
Lauren Langman (08:18):
But do tell us the hedgehog did survive.
It did.
Yes, it was caught under asaucepan.
Love that it was caught under asaucepan.
Now, I think this is reallyinteresting If you are going to
do something like that, and Iknow what your answer is going
to be, but I really want you toshare it with all of our
listeners here Sex and Squirrelpodcast the best podcast that is
out there.
Please, please, please, makesure you share this.
Make sure all the other dogfriends you've got, any doggy
(08:45):
person, make sure they get holdof this podcast, because there's
definitely something in it foreverybody.
Now, someone that's listening,karen, in the moment that you
are going to um, effectivelytrade or swap or move like, I
know exactly, um, how I wouldwork this with my dogs hedgehogs
under the saucepan or saidcapture item and I know now that
what I must not do is go andrevel in the fact I've captured
this hedgehog and then put thishedgehog back in the garden or
wherever I'm going to put itpossibly not your garden, but
(09:07):
somewhere else.
But so many owners will go todo this.
They've got it and it's almostlike they've got the prized
possession and they've managedto capture it from the dog.
What we know is, if you do dothat, you're never going to do
that again because the dog's notgoing to give you the
opportunity, especially not aroper or a poppy or that type of
dog.
What did you do then, when youhad captured said hedgehog, that
(09:28):
rupert is doing something else,quickly being occupied, maybe
volunteering, in anotherdirection.
How is your exit out of thatsituation looking so?
Karen (09:36):
Rupert was completely removed from that room that the
hedgehog was in.
He was, I think I scattered.
It was quite a few years ago,but I suspect I probably kind of
distracted him with a massivehandful of food down on the
floor.
So his brain was as away fromthe hedgehog as possible because
realistically his brain had notleft that hedgehog.
It was still definitely therefor the taking if the soft spot
moved um and then he was takenout of the room and then the
(10:00):
hedgehog was removed once he wasnot there anymore and I think
this is really brilliant.
Lauren Langman (10:05):
What karen says here is um, his brain didn't
leave, but he was physicallyremoved and I had this
experience with Skittle onlyrecently.
I was playing games with tennisballs and hiding them in sofas.
We've got a sofa downstairs inthe scent training area that's
cut up.
That sofa is for hiding ballsin and things, and she'd found a
(10:25):
hide which was a tennis ball Irewarded with another tennis
ball which is exactly the sameas the tennis ball I'd hidden.
So identical objects, identicalthing made of the same tennis
ball.
Material is an air kong.
It was one of the the kongcompany's tennis balls made from
exactly the same tennis ballcut up.
And yet when I rewarded herwith a new tennis ball, she
didn't want the new tennis ball,she wanted the other tennis
(10:46):
ball and her brain wascompletely in the other tennis
ball, to the point that shecouldn't train again that day
for a tennis ball.
Because I could not remove herfrom that scenario and that
tennis, the best thing to dowould be actually to pick her up
and take her out.
However, we're not talkingresource guarding with her.
If we were to pick up a dogwho's in a resource guarding
space, like Rupert, in thatmoment we're very likely to get
bitten and I think that's reallyimportant to acknowledge.
For Skittles, in that situation, she wasn't able to disengage
(11:13):
from one toy and go to anothertoy.
For rupert, in that space, he'snot able to disengage from the
um resource guarding and go tothe new training game.
But you can handle themdifferently.
Skittle, you can pick up andput under your arm, because it's
a different scenario, adifferent um space.
He's not a dog you'd pick upand you definitely know that by
doing something like that, youwould actually almost ask
yourself do I want to be bittenin this scenario?
Okay, go ahead, pick him up.
Karen (11:32):
Yeah, because that is going to happen, right yes, it
would yep um, and the onlysituation in which I would do
that is if another dog oranother person or another
something was at risk.
If I left him, I would putmyself in harm's way to get him
out of a situation if he waslikely to hurt somebody else.
This is interesting.
Lauren Langman (11:51):
This is a really interesting one because I
really feel and this is againprobably a debate for maybe off
Sex and Squirrel podcast, buthey, we're here, let's chat it
through I know that the majorityof situations that he's going
to come across with another dog,I actually think there's a real
space and I think it's a hardone.
It's definitely a hard one forus positive reinforcement style
trainers, but it's a hard one.
(12:12):
It's definitely a hard one forus positive reinforcement style
trainers, but for me there's aspace.
For if that situation was tohappen, I think it would
actually diffuse a lot quickerthan you think and I think you
would flap a lot more than hewould.
I actually think it would belike handbags at dawn and then
it would be quite quickly overand dogs like him and say Mango
I think Mango is bigger than him, stronger than him and actually
mentally a little tougher thanhim and I think it would just be
(12:32):
a bit of a shake it off andhandbags at dawn and it would be
over.
I don't feel like there'sanything real malice-y in there
and anything that's reallyfollowed up with hard bite, very
different to some of theTerriers.
I train some of the Staffies.
I train some of the Pitbulls Itrain Like.
I really love all of them.
They're beautiful dogs butthey've got very different
(12:58):
follow-through and their endresult is bite to kill and I
think that is very much whatthey have been hard bred to do.
And that's not a criticism ofthe breeds.
I love them.
I think they're fantasticbreeds and one of my breeds that
I will own in my lifetime is astaffy.
I will own a staffy.
I just own too many wigglylittle dogs and many, many
chickens right now and cats, sofor me they're the wrong breed
for my house and my setupbecause I have too many.
In fact, today we were feedinga chicken in our house, right,
karen?
So we do know that.
However, I feel like there's aspace for that and I feel
(13:18):
there's a space for that withappropriate stooge dogs and
that's something I'd love togrow and love to give ourselves
a bit more time to do becauseappropriate stooge dogs in those
scenarios as much as we don'twant to set a dog up for failure
I feel like we'd be setting thescenario appropriately for
success and for a level oflearning and also level of owner
confidence.
I agree, maybe a vulnerablechild, but that's about it,
everyone else I'd say could fendfor themselves.
Karen (13:40):
Yeah, I agree, don't go in the same space at all.
But yeah, I mean there is.
I think there is a.
There's a scarcity thing there.
To some extent it's moreimportant because it doesn't
happen at all.
So he doesn't interact withother dogs because he doesn't
really like other dogs, and Iknow he can react to other dogs,
yeah, um.
So yeah, definitely a scarcity.
Lauren Langman (13:57):
It's become a bigger thing than it potentially
actually is.
Yeah, which is interesting,isn't it really interesting?
Space.
Now another thing.
If I think about resourceguarding, I know that tricks
have helped you loads.
I don't know if you want toexplain to everybody listening
hey, sexy and squirrel podcastlisteners tricks, tricks, tricks
and tricks.
If you want to explain toeverybody listening hey, sexy
and Squirrel podcast listenerstricks, tricks, tricks and
tricks If you haven't alreadyrealised, you know what.
We have a mega, mega, megatrick space, mega tricks book.
(14:18):
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Join the Games Club?
It's our immense space for dogtraining and learning, but at
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Now, you love the tricks bookand I know that you have played
many, many, many, many tricksfrom that book and I know
(14:39):
they've helped you hugely.
How have they helped you andhow have they helped you?
Karen (14:43):
well, firstly, relationship because he is quite
a tricky dog.
I mean, resource guarding isnot the only struggle we have.
I touched on dog dog reactivity.
He he is quite a challengingdog to live with and quite a
challenging dog to own.
So being able to do somethingthat's just fun but actually
also builds loads of skills atthe same time has been and he
looks so blooming cute playing.
Lauren Langman (15:03):
I was only talking about him yesterday with
um super kev one of our teamand super kev I was like he's so
damn cute and he's so damnnaughty, all in the same like
handful, like he's really cute,looks like a teddy bear.
You can see why everyone ends upwith a cockapoo dead, dead,
cute, really, really, reallyfunny, highly intelligent, which
I think is part of his downfall, really, and his problem, and
that's what I think um with somany of our naughty but nice
(15:25):
dogs and so many of oursensitive dogs very, very
intelligent and very, very quickto pair things.
But when we think about rue inthis environment and in this
space, uh, tricks, your favoritetricks, maybe give us two,
three, four of your favoritetricks or um reasons why they
help with disengagement andreasons why they help with
effectively resource guarding um.
Karen (15:46):
So I taught rupert to put his toys in a box.
Um, this was not any.
It wasn't taught for a resourceguarding purpose.
We taught it because it was funand because his retrieve wasn't
brilliant and I thought, well,let's work on retrieve in a fun
way.
But it actually has helped meout of resource guarding
situations quite a few times,because if he's nicked something
, the worst thing that you cando, as we've said, is try and
(16:08):
get it back or negotiate it back, um, and he's usually quite
heightened in terms of hisarousal or his excitement at
that point, so he's not aslikely to just trade it.
So if I was playing adeliberate game of of kind of
fetch or switch or somethinglike that, with socks or pants
or whatever else he's taking afancy to, he's still got his
(16:30):
energy pitched at the levelwhere you can trade and he'll
drop it for food and that's.
That's an intentional,purposeful game.
But it notches up a bit whenhe's nicked it, particularly if
you've clocked.
Lauren Langman (16:42):
He's nicked it and then he's clocked that
you've clocked he's already inthat heightened space, isn't it
like he's already there?
His arousal's up, yourarousal's also up, everyone's
kind of like up here in buckets,are suddenly filling very fast
and so, yeah, it's a differentspace to work.
Karen (16:58):
Yeah so, rather than even trying to trade at that point,
because I know that's unlikelyto work, um, I turn it into a
game.
So I get a whole load of othersocks or pants or balls, or it
doesn't actually really matterwhat it is, but I just chuck
them all on the floor and thenhe will.
Typically.
It might take a while, buthe'll typically leave that one
and come and play his game andput everything else in the box,
(17:21):
not that one.
He never starts with that oneas he's stolen, but eventually,
once you put enough in, you cansend him for the one that you're
such an amazing owner.
Lauren Langman (17:29):
I listen and I'm like, oh R Rupert, you're so
blooming lucky.
If only you realised it likesuch, such and I get that's not
how how dogs think and dogs workand dogs brains work, but he's
so, so, so, so, so lucky to havean owner like you, because I
know in so many hands he wouldhave been put to sleep and I
think that so many owners hewould never have made a family
(17:49):
dog easily, I think, even withbrilliant dog training, I think
that he was, um, certainly a dogthat was destined for, for
trouble, and so he's.
You know what he's?
He's had a difficult, I'd say.
His genetics are very difficult, um, so I think that space is
there, plus early upbringing,not pre-u, and so we've got lots
of things we're going against,and I think genetics are
(18:09):
something that are very hard toto completely, um, right, like,
like, change the script on andat the same time, you're doing
such a great job here.
Karen (18:17):
So, karen, tell us another thing that you do with
reaper as a trick aroundresource guarding um, less of a
trick and more of a game, buttoy switch actually does help as
well.
Um so, again, it wouldn'tnecessarily work in the
situation, but it's a game or atrick or whatever you want to
call it.
That really kind of skills themup for the situation and
because you tend to play withtoys and you tend to play in
(18:37):
slightly higher arousal, it getsthat kind of disengaging
thinking brain happening inslightly higher levels of
excitement.
But I do also know where topitch it, and this is from
resource guarding experience aswell.
So there is one super duperhigh, high, high value squeaky
tug toy which is made withrabbit fur, which was one of his
(18:59):
very early toys, and I'velearned never to switch with
that because even if I had to dothe same, that pitches him so
high that he then can't switch.
Lauren Langman (19:09):
Yeah it's almost not useful.
You take him to a space.
Karen (19:11):
It's not useful, yeah but frisbees or socks, lots of
things we've done it with andit's just a really good.
You play with this one, it goesdead.
You play with this one, it goesdead.
Switch, switch, switch.
And then, before the arousalkicks too high, we stop and then
he'll have a Kong or aScassafied or something to bring
him back down again.
Lauren Langman (19:32):
Oh, such a lucky dog.
He's such a lucky dog.
Now.
I'm thinking anybody that'slistening you might have
experienced some level ofresource guarding struggles
yourself.
We have our 10 days to stopresource guarding and in that
course, I know that you're goingto see lots of opportunities
for progression for your dog,but also lots of opportunities
that you, as an owner, canimprove.
It's just 27 pound.
(19:53):
It's to all of our listenersright now, so it's a mega, mega
mega discount.
It's from 97.
Now owners that are listening.
Karen, I think this is really,really key.
If you are an owner listeningand I think there are loads of
you guys out there and you mightshare it you might be one of
the pro dog trainers that wantsto share it with all of your
students.
So that is great, great freelearning for them.
I think one of the biggestthings we've got to do is train
(20:13):
ourself to do the opposite ofwhat our dogs are almost begging
us to do.
Right, they're bringing you thething and telling you they've
got it, and they're looking atyou like I'm going to crunch
this, um, or they're kind ofhappily dancing around whilst
you're going.
Oh, my god, that's my like brandnew remote or that's my brand
new, whatever it is, or that'sthe thing I really don't want
you to have.
Or in fact, one um student'sdog got hold of a wedding ring.
(20:33):
So I've had a student's doghave a wedding ring and that was
um dramatic, for sure, andquite traumatic for the owners
until it came out, and actuallya whole adventure of
investigating poo for like aweek.
But the owner is important here, like how do you, as an owner,
(20:57):
offer the self-control thatyou're, because it's not
automatic to do the opposite ofwhat you want to do when these
scenarios happen?
Karen (21:05):
right?
No, it's not.
And actually my dad has beenbitten because he has done what
is the natural thing to do,which is see that Rupert's
picked up some rubbish on a walkand try and take it from him,
whereas actually what you needto do is the exact opposite,
that you need to not give anyindication that you're remotely
bothered to be eating somethingdisgusting.
Um, whereas my inclination, ifI wasn't thinking, would be to
(21:27):
kind of tighten the lead, tryand pull him away from it.
That makes him dig in harder.
So you actually really have torelax and then just kind of
loosen everything off.
I don't care what you're eating, don't?
Lauren Langman (21:39):
care you can be eating all of the disgusting
things, and you really have toldme some disgusting things.
Oh, he's eaten some reallydisgusting things and they've
been in his beard, whichactually gives me like pretty
sick feeling right now, like I'mfeeling pretty ill.
I don't think you've even heardthe worst one, but it's not for
the vodka.
Oh God, don't.
Literally, I can imagine.
And the thing with Roo is thatyou are so good at just being
(22:00):
like, yeah, I'm not bothered,but deep down you are bothered.
Karen (22:02):
I am bothered because he's probably eating.
I mean, he's got allergies aswell, so best case, he's
probably eating something that'sgoing to make him itch, because
even if he was eating somesirloin steak it would make him
itch.
So you've got thatconsideration.
Most often it's not sirloinsteak, it's something way more
disgusting.
So I don't want him eating that.
(22:23):
I put a lot of effort intogiving him a good diet.
I don't want him eatingsomething rancid off the street.
It could be dangerous.
Lauren Langman (22:31):
I had a recent student's dog that ate cannabis,
so it made itself really reallypretty ill and found cannabis
on the street.
I don't know who was throwingcannabis, but hey, there you go,
um, and so this dog had foundcannabis and or hiding cannabis,
I don't know um, and and thething is that this dog ate it
and um was immediately, prettymuch within an hour, was in vet
hospital under serious medicalcare.
(22:53):
Uh, fitting um and prettypretty um death door did make it
and has come out and completelyfine.
But those are the sorts ofthings that can happen when your
dog's out there and eatingthings from the street and then
you have to be really nonchalantand not bothered and be kind of
casual about the scenario,right, yeah, definitely you have
to pretend that you do not careand it is not a big deal, and
(23:14):
sometimes a little bit of a herescatter feed will eventually
kind of do the bringing thebrain somewhere else thing.
Karen (23:23):
Um, but it has to be.
Well, there's some food if youwant it.
It's got to be so genuine, it'sso genuine.
Lauren Langman (23:30):
I think this is where most people go wrong.
So most people, when I've beenin a day-to-day training
situation with them, they throwthe piece in the food.
They're like what's this,what's this, what's this?
Look at this, look at this nice.
Look at this nice food.
Look at this nice food.
And the second, the dog, comesover to it.
You can see all of thatperson's energy and intention at
the other thing and they'vesuddenly become like oh, the
other thing is free, let me dashto the other thing.
(23:50):
And I'm like you really can'tbe anywhere near the other thing
until that dog's out of thatscenario.
So that dog has to be in acompletely different space.
Whether that's my vehicle,whether that's another room,
whether that's a crate, whetherthat's a pen, whether it's a
gate, I prefer they can't evensee.
I prefer they can't even see.
Sniff or hear me, because somedogs I absolutely know that
Liza's little dog, katie wouldknow exactly what you were doing
(24:11):
.
She'd know that you're walkingthere.
She'd sense exactly where youwere in the space, in the house.
She wouldn't have to see you.
She wouldn't have to see you.
She wouldn't have to see you.
And then next time you ask herto trade something she's got,
that learning history and thefact that you didn't trade it
appropriately last time and youwent back and got that hedgehog,
and she knows it because thathedgehog had gone and she'd be
in the house for a good week ortwo after looking to see that
that hedgehog might have comeback or might be back in that
(24:32):
space.
And those are those dogs withthat like learning, memory
patterning.
Uh, they're difficult forowners to manage.
Karen (24:38):
Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier on the fact
that he is super duper, duperquick to pair things, but only
negative things or things youdon't want him to pair, whereas
learning, making a pairing,that's actually a positive,
helpful one, that that's a bitlacking, um but so interesting,
isn't it?
I think that pairing is sointeresting what I have noticed,
(25:01):
I think, is that by playing allthe games and by doing what we
do and by managing thesituations in the way that we do
and by skilling him up, evenwhen you're in those situations
and you feel like, actually, whyis this not doing what I want
it to do?
What is he really not learninganything?
He will mentally disengage fromstuff a lot quicker than he
used to do, so I can pick stuffup a lot quicker and actually,
(25:24):
once he's been engaged somewhereelse whether that's because
I've given him a chew or I'vegiven him something appropriate
or he's doing something elsehe's actually not that bothered
about the thing anymore so he'sonce, he's re-employed, and that
sort of learning and historynow and that sort of layer on
layer on layer of goodfoundation because you haven't
put yourself in that situation.
Lauren Langman (25:44):
I think that's that's really key.
So for someone with a resourceguard, I'm going to say please,
please, please, get out there.
It's £27.
Get the stop resource guardingopportunity here.
It's 10 days to stop resourceguarding, it's just £27.
It's to you as a Sex andSquirrel listener.
Go and get it, Karen.
For anybody that's consideringit do games work?
Is what we do at Games Clubgoing to help?
(26:05):
Is the fact that these guys canget a 10-day course going to
support them?
How do they go?
Karen (26:10):
forward?
Yeah, absolutely, and actuallyI mean, all the 10-day courses
are brilliant, so whateverstruggle they've got, they
should get one that matches thatstruggle.
But I think this one isparticularly good.
It's got so much in it and Ithink, even if you don't have a
resource guarding dog, it's agood one to get because it
really makes you think about it.
There's a lovely lady.
Lauren Langman (26:28):
She came on the resource guarding sessions that
we were teaching and she saidyou know what?
When I heard it was resourceguarding, I really was quite
disappointed.
I thought it'd be very boring.
But she said this was so muchfun, I learned loads.
And I learned no, it's not formy own dog, but actually for all
of the dogs I've worked with,and my own dog she's like.
I learned for a lot ofdifferent dogs, a lot of
different scenarios.
I think this is something weshould know for life.
(26:50):
With handling dogs, if youhandle dogs in any capacity, if
you work with dogs in anycapacity, if you um teach other
people with dogs, definitely ifyou own a resource guard, 100%
and I think this is quiteinteresting to say.
But how early did you know hewas a resource guard?
Karen (27:06):
I was quite early naive owner.
I think he was my first dog.
I didn't know a lot.
There were things I didn't doas well as I could have done if
I'd known better when I firsthad him, but the signs were
there really early.
Lauren Langman (27:18):
I think that's the thing.
The signs are there and thesigns are often there.
Now I have typically this is anodd one.
I've seen it in a lot of reddogs and I don't know what
that's about.
I haven't looked into that, Ihaven't.
I'm not saying anything thereat all, other than I've seen a
lot of red dogs with resourceguarding struggles and one of my
very first clients, who was aresource guard, she came to me
as a seven-month-old HungarianVigila puppy, beautiful,
(27:41):
beautiful dog.
Her owner is now one of my verybest friends.
She has since passed.
She died at nearly 18.
And so I taught her for manyyears we did agility.
She was a great, great dog.
I loved working with her.
Her name was Lyra and she was abeautiful Vigila, one of the
most beautiful, probably themost beautiful Vigila I have
ever worked with and met.
And what I really noticed withher is that her early upbringing
(28:04):
the owners very quickly becamescared of her.
So when she would grabsomething and growl, they would
back off and they didn't reallyknow what to do.
And quite quickly, thebehaviorists they work with and
there are so many people outthere that call themselves
behaviorists and for me Iactually just want to work with
a great dog trainer who hasskills and emotional capacity
for a dog.
I actually I'm not necessarilylooking for the fact they're a
behaviorist or not.
In fact there are manybehaviorists out there that I
(28:26):
would be concerned that they arecalling themselves behaviorists
.
So For me it's good emotionalcapacity to work with a dog and
good training, grounding andknowledge and actually skills
handling and working with dogs.
I think that for me is numberone.
(28:47):
But this behaviourist had saidbasically every time Lyra gets
near a resource and doesanything like this, pick her up
and remove her from a situationvery quickly.
You can see how that played outSort of 11 year old I think
Lizzie was at the time 11 yearold girl bitten by the dog.
Sort of 11-year-old I thinkLizzie was at the time
11-year-old girl bitten by thedog.
She picked the puppy up, movedout of the situation, become
sort of quite quickly scared ofthe dog once the dog started
nipping, biting and actuallyquite hard, aggressive, growling
and coming forward at people,and so she then disliked the dog
and she wanted her mum torehome the dog, as did her
(29:07):
sister, because they thought thedog was nuts.
But you can see how the typicalfamily is advised badly in these
scenarios and actually almostwrites the future by following
very, very outdated, archaic, umnutty advice.
Really go pick a dog up that isgrowling, warning you and
telling you they don't likesomething.
And so there are so many thingsthat maybe you don't read,
(29:30):
little things that people couldlook for with resource guarders.
Let's just do a couple of liketips tennis on them.
For me I'm going to saystillness, so stillness around
resources.
What would you say?
Karen (29:38):
um, well, as you mentioned growling, if you, if
you go near him or a dog who hasgot something and they're
communicating verbally that theydon't want you near, then that
is the first stage of a warningthat you don't want to escalate
beyond that absolutely.
Lauren Langman (29:53):
And growling, growling for me, I almost
celebrate the fact the doggrowls because at least they
warn me.
I remember being taught by uhbehaviorists a long, long time
ago and they said, basically tocorrect poppy growling, and very
quickly it went from growlingto biting, with no warning, and
that for me was such a massiveawakening.
And the other one, I would sayfor lots of you guys, an ability
to disengage from a toy soskittle.
She doesn't really resourceguard with me and I say yet, and
(30:15):
that's because she's atwo-year-old dog like that can,
that can grow, and when she'sgot hold of something she isn't
always able to let it go.
And that for me is, uh, whileshe's not growling over it and
really possessing it or doinganything, that worries me.
There's a real level of completeobsession with something.
I was playing something theother day with a turtle and
quite quickly, uh, in thissession I was playing with the
(30:37):
turtle, she became very, veryobsessed with the turtle and
then did not want to let theturtle go, to the point she
pulled the turtle's eye off.
The turtle is not a real turtle, it's a little model for your
like hand grip thing.
But I think that's massive,isn't it, but I think that's
really quite interesting, as thedog is not able to let this go
so effectively.
She wouldn't have been able totoy switch or she wouldn't have
been able to do any of thesethings.
The other thing she did was sheshowed me a different look from
(30:58):
her eye.
What would you say about eyesand resource guarding?
Karen (31:01):
yeah, your kind of sidey eye or whale eye, the kind of I
know you're there, I'm lookingat you and I'm not happy at all
and my face is showing you.
I'm not happy at all.
Lauren Langman (31:11):
Back off woman yeah, and it is, and that's
exactly the little face.
It's like take this thing offme and I kill you silent but
violent, and sometimes I'll getthat from her and I'm like, oh,
interesting, and for me again,like I said, she's never
resource guarded like in thetraditional growling or any of
those senses.
But I can see the warnings andthese are things that people say
.
I never believed it.
I didn't see any warnings.
There was not a warning to thisand you're like, no, they
(31:34):
warned you at every stage, youjust weren't listening, like you
weren't listening.
So those are some of the thingswe might see typically.
And another thing would bedesperate to get back to a space
.
So they're desperate to rushback to a space.
So maybe you've let them outfor a wee and they've followed
you, like dutifully, but thesecond they're in, they're back
at a space or they're back in acertain um sort of area of the
house.
Karen (31:53):
I see that as well or they take their things to a
corner out kind of out of theway.
Lauren Langman (31:57):
Sit on them yeah , I've also seen that like put
them under poppy would putthings under herself and then
like gather them another earlywarning with rupert, which I
didn't really understand at thetime.
Karen (32:08):
He used to be a dog who I could send to a dog sitter who
had other dogs.
I don't do that anymore, it'sjust he doesn't have the skills
for that just now.
But he had an issue with thedog sitter's own dog being
affectionate with his owner.
Rupert didn't like that at all,so effectively guarding the
(32:30):
person and that's what I findreally interesting.
Lauren Langman (32:32):
So some of the dogs that I've worked with
professionally here at thetraining center and also online
through our games club, throughour pro dog trainer club
actually they'll even resourcegot a space.
So a space is enough, or aspace near a doorway, or a space
near a sofa, or a space nearsomething and something of
meaning to them.
So there is some level ofpairing and sometimes you don't
even know the pairing.
So, uh, the funniest one that Ihad was a lady that rang me and
(32:52):
just was like help, I cannotget out of my kitchen.
Basically, my dogs are guardingthe living room.
It's my only door out of thehouse.
I've got an sos here like I needthe police or I need someone to
help me and you're a dogtrainer, you've been recommended
get me out of here.
And of course there's the gether out of there in the interim.
But there is also the deep andmeaningful conversation that
this training has to happen forlife and I think that so many
(33:13):
people get that part wrong thatthere is a level of management
and awareness and awakening atleast that this can be a
volatile situation.
Now you touched on at thebeginning that Rupert had bitten
.
Is that something that's aregular occurrence or is this
something that's very, verymanageable with the right
strategies, through what we dohere, through games?
Karen (33:28):
yeah, it's not regular at all.
Um, and I would say it's whenI've mismanaged it or when
somebody less aware of rupertand less kind of savvy with dogs
generally has handled him.
Um, I can manage it and I knowwhat to do and what not to do.
I know what his triggers are.
I'm fairly careful about what Ileave around.
(33:50):
If I've left something aroundthat he's got hold of, then
that's my fault I love thatyou're on it for your
responsibility versus hisresponsibility.
Lauren Langman (33:57):
You know he's not capable of certain things,
so you know he's not capable andso actually that's not his
responsibility.
Same as I know for Eliza, forexample, today she wanted to go
shopping and when I thoughtabout it and I thought about
where that was going, I was likeactually I know that you're not
(34:17):
capable of making this decision, that you don't have the money
to spend as to where we're goingand you also really have a lot
of other jobs to do.
Those are the things we need toprioritize.
Sometimes you've got to makethe adult decision in the
relationship.
Karen (34:21):
now, karen, I know you're a phenomenal owner for for him,
but anyone who's out therelistening any final words to to
say for them as to what they cando going forward or how they
can proceed, or even just wordsof encouragement well, I think,
first of all, if you do have adog who struggles, like Rupert
does and like lots of other dogsdo, um, you can definitely make
a difference, um, and it'sprobably you that needs to
(34:44):
change potentially as much asthe dog just in terms of how
you're managing it and howyou're seeing it, um, and find
ways to put fun into it, becauseit does make what's really
quite a tricky situation feel alot more lighthearted Mary
Poppins would definitely advise,wouldn't she?
Lauren Langman (35:00):
In every job that must be done, there
certainly can be an element offun.
So that was this episode of theSex and Squirrel podcast.
Thank you, karen, for joiningus.
Amazing opportunity Resourceguarding.
Please, please, please, sharethis episode.
Share it with friends, family,dog lovers, your father, your
sister, your mother, yourbrother, your long lost lover.
Ensure you share it and we'llsee you next time.
(35:21):
Remember, stay sexy you.
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers and it's my mission
to help owners become theirdog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Okay, we're talking resourceguarding, and I know, karen, you
(00:32):
are joining me today to sharewith all of our listeners how it
is really living with aresource guard and living with a
dog who really does have somefairly extreme resource guarding
examples, but also a dog who islovable, who plays games, who
games have really transformedhim in so many ways, and yet you
still have a level of resourceguarding in there that
definitely needs managing, andsometimes on a daily basis.
(00:54):
Tell us about it.
Karen (00:56):
So yeah, so he's a brilliant dog.
He's so much fun, he loves games, he loves tricks, he loves
everything that we do here, andhe will still struggle with
disengagement as a concept.
So the ability to kind of leavethings alone, let things go, and
, in the sense of resources,that can manifest as hovering
(01:18):
over stuff growling, if you gonear him when he's got something
that he thinks he should have,that you maybe want back or
don't think he should have.
He has bitten um, notfrequently, but he has and I
know it's in there um, so, dayto day, it's a question of
managing his environment interms of not putting him in
situations where there arethings he can get hold of that I
(01:38):
don't want him to have, orthings that are not safe for him
to have.
Um, and then also skilling himup so that, even if
disengagement is not his biggestskill, there are alternative
ways we can deal with it.
So if he's got something, Iknow, for example, that I can
turn this into a game oreffectively turn this into a
trick that he enjoys and thenflip it, flip this, flip the
(02:01):
story, and then I can get thething back, but not because he
thinks he's given up the thing.
Lauren Langman (02:08):
And it's so interesting hearing that from an
owner's perspective, because Iknow that you are a really
intelligent owner.
You're a really savvy owner,you work with what you've got
and you work with the dog infront of you.
But deep down some days, howdoes it feel owning a dog that
might bite?
And how does it feel owning adog that might bite?
And how does it feel owning adog that you have to work with
(02:29):
in this way some days?
Karen (02:30):
some days it's scary.
Some days you think, why am Inot making more progress with
this?
And I think some days you alsothink why is mine the dog that
can't do this and does do that,and why do I not have an easy
dog?
He's my first dog.
Did I do something wrong?
Was there something that Ishould have done when he was
younger or something I did whenhe was younger?
(02:50):
That's kind of made it worse.
You go through all of thosethoughts, I think.
Lauren Langman (02:54):
And I remember feeling exactly this with Poppy
and I know we've worked togethertoday with some of my dogs and
I said look simple, simple,simple.
But I also know complex, becauseI've owned complex and I've
owned dogs who are just likesome humans Some are more
complex than others I think andsome have different struggles
and some have different areas togrow in, and I know that Rupert
and Poppy certainly sit for mewith the dog category of
(03:18):
certainly more to grow and moreskills for the owner to have.
I feel like Poppy qualified mevery well in naughty but nice
dogs and Poppy qualified me verywell in dogs that have real
disengagement struggles and Ifeel very well equipped to
handle a reactive dog, and Iknow that you are, and I know
that not every dog is likeRupert.
And yet there are peoplelistening today that are going
to struggle and struggle withresource guarding and there are
(03:40):
future people that are going topick up dogs just like Rupert
who are going to have this inthe next 10 years, 15 years, 20
years, as long as this podcastgoes out there.
Now, when I think about that,let's think about our top tips
and our strategies for dogs likeRupert, because we can talk
about dogs like Rupert untilwe're blue in the face, but
actually really you've got a fewoptions.
One is you rehome that dog.
Two is you put that dog tosleep.
(04:01):
Three is you work with the dogin front of you and potentially
put some management situationsin there or some management
potential Now for us.
We're always going to go downthe management route.
Typically, or potentially,we're going to home the dog if
we really can't handle it andput to sleep, really as a last
resort or option.
But when you do have dogs thatbite, they're in a family, and
they're in a family with smallchildren or they're in a family
(04:22):
with vulnerable people.
I think we do have thoseconsiderations to take fairly
seriously.
Now, in some ways, you're in agood scenario for him because
it's you and him and actually,being you and him, you can
manage things fairly easily.
I know it's slightly moredifficult when you have the cat
involved, but actually it's youand him largely, sometimes your
parents and sometimes friendsand family, but actually
typically you and him.
Karen (04:49):
What are some of our top tips for handling a dog like
Rupert?
So I think if we're talkingresource, resource guarding
specifically, then definitelyone of the biggest things is not
to make an issue of things,particularly things that he's
got, that he thinks areimportant.
Because if he thinks it'simportant and then I tell him
it's important, by making a bigdeal about the fact that he's
got the important thing, thenthe thing becomes more important
and then the disengagementstruggle becomes way, way worse,
(05:09):
so hard as it is when he'sstolen things that I don't want
him to chew or that couldpotentially be dangerous, and
there will be a.
I mean, if he had somethingsuper duper dangerous which he
never has, then there wouldpotentially be a pointer which
you would just have to kind oftry and stop that happening.
But in the majority of cases,things like he's stolen my socks
(05:31):
or he's stolen my pants and Idon't want him to chew a big
hole in the crotch of myfavorite pants, or he's got hold
of a 20 pound note before Idon't really want him to chew up
a 20 pound note because that'squite expensive.
But the more you kind of flapand make an issue of it and go
towards him and make him knowthat you want the thing back,
the more he wants the thing.
Lauren Langman (05:49):
Now one of my clients, their dog, ate a
fishhook and another one of mydogs, or my client's dogs,
picked up a razor blade.
So those are the sorts ofthings you do, go, dear Lord,
and another client's dog had aserious operation with an
acupuncture needle and soremoving the acupuncture needle
and all of these things arepotentially life threatening,
(06:11):
and I think that's givingKaren's comments some context.
Those things make you suddenlygo hang on a second.
What do I need to do now?
But even then, in thosescenarios, sometimes rushing in
is still going to end in thewrong result.
So I completely agree and notgiving it more importance and it
already has because of the factthat he's now parading with it
or got it and is very aware thathe's throwing your pants in the
air.
And when you've got out of thesituation you can kind of see
(06:35):
the funny side.
But in that situation it isquite tough, isn't it, to see
the funny side?
Karen (06:39):
Yeah, definitely, either because he's got something you
don't want him to have, orbecause you're worried what he
might do with the thing he's got, or because I mean there have
been situations where he's gothold of something and I've
needed to do something but Ican't, I don't want to leave him
with the thing, because even ifI've kind of decided that I'll
just kind of deal with the it'sgot, you never mind, I can get
(07:01):
another one or it'll go in thebin.
Even if you've kind of dealt,it's still not safe necessarily
for him to keep the thing andyou go out, or there has to be
an element of safety that Ican't just leave him to to chew
the thing and then potentiallyswallow the thing if I'm not
there, because sometimes goingout, leaving him to it, would
(07:22):
potentially be the best option,because you've diffused the
situation by leaving thesituation and can't you think
about so many healthy adultrelationships.
Lauren Langman (07:30):
You're like, actually, if I just leave this
situation because there is areal like you can, you can
actually relate this to so muchuh, human behavior.
Right, but you're right,actually by doing that you've
kind of given away yourresponsibility there and
actually in that moment, if heswallows that and if he chews
all of that, he eats all of thatand it ends up in intestine and
he's a major operation hedoesn't make it.
Suddenly you have a differentlevel of thought process and you
go.
Maybe I made the wrong decisionhere hard, yep.
Karen (07:54):
Um, he's had a hedgehog in the house once, which
obviously was not ideal.
Um, that's not a situation youcan walk away from, because
there's a hedgehog which youwant to rescue, there's a dog
which really can't swallow ahedgehog and there's a situation
that has to be handled.
But again, it's not a situationwhere you can kind of go in and
(08:14):
try and take the hedgehogeither.
Lauren Langman (08:18):
But do tell us the hedgehog did survive.
It did.
Yes, it was caught under asaucepan.
Love that it was caught under asaucepan.
Now, I think this is reallyinteresting If you are going to
do something like that, and Iknow what your answer is going
to be, but I really want you toshare it with all of our
listeners here Sex and Squirrelpodcast the best podcast that is
out there.
Please, please, please, makesure you share this.
Make sure all the other dogfriends you've got, any doggy
(08:45):
person, make sure they get holdof this podcast, because there's
definitely something in it foreverybody.
Now, someone that's listening,karen, in the moment that you
are going to um, effectivelytrade or swap or move like, I
know exactly, um, how I wouldwork this with my dogs hedgehogs
under the saucepan or saidcapture item and I know now that
what I must not do is go andrevel in the fact I've captured
this hedgehog and then put thishedgehog back in the garden or
wherever I'm going to put itpossibly not your garden, but
(09:07):
somewhere else.
But so many owners will go todo this.
They've got it and it's almostlike they've got the prized
possession and they've managedto capture it from the dog.
What we know is, if you do dothat, you're never going to do
that again because the dog's notgoing to give you the
opportunity, especially not aroper or a poppy or that type of
dog.
What did you do then, when youhad captured said hedgehog, that
(09:28):
rupert is doing something else,quickly being occupied, maybe
volunteering, in anotherdirection.
How is your exit out of thatsituation looking so?
Karen (09:36):
Rupert was completely removed from that room that the
hedgehog was in.
He was, I think I scattered.
It was quite a few years ago,but I suspect I probably kind of
distracted him with a massivehandful of food down on the
floor.
So his brain was as away fromthe hedgehog as possible because
realistically his brain had notleft that hedgehog.
It was still definitely therefor the taking if the soft spot
moved um and then he was takenout of the room and then the
(10:00):
hedgehog was removed once he wasnot there anymore and I think
this is really brilliant.
Lauren Langman (10:05):
What karen says here is um, his brain didn't
leave, but he was physicallyremoved and I had this
experience with Skittle onlyrecently.
I was playing games with tennisballs and hiding them in sofas.
We've got a sofa downstairs inthe scent training area that's
cut up.
That sofa is for hiding ballsin and things, and she'd found a
(10:25):
hide which was a tennis ball Irewarded with another tennis
ball which is exactly the sameas the tennis ball I'd hidden.
So identical objects, identicalthing made of the same tennis
ball.
Material is an air kong.
It was one of the the kongcompany's tennis balls made from
exactly the same tennis ballcut up.
And yet when I rewarded herwith a new tennis ball, she
didn't want the new tennis ball,she wanted the other tennis
(10:46):
ball and her brain wascompletely in the other tennis
ball, to the point that shecouldn't train again that day
for a tennis ball.
Because I could not remove herfrom that scenario and that
tennis, the best thing to dowould be actually to pick her up
and take her out.
However, we're not talkingresource guarding with her.
If we were to pick up a dogwho's in a resource guarding
space, like Rupert, in thatmoment we're very likely to get
bitten and I think that's reallyimportant to acknowledge.
For Skittles, in that situation, she wasn't able to disengage
(11:13):
from one toy and go to anothertoy.
For rupert, in that space, he'snot able to disengage from the
um resource guarding and go tothe new training game.
But you can handle themdifferently.
Skittle, you can pick up andput under your arm, because it's
a different scenario, adifferent um space.
He's not a dog you'd pick upand you definitely know that by
doing something like that, youwould actually almost ask
yourself do I want to be bittenin this scenario?
Okay, go ahead, pick him up.
Karen (11:32):
Yeah, because that is going to happen, right yes, it
would yep um, and the onlysituation in which I would do
that is if another dog oranother person or another
something was at risk.
If I left him, I would putmyself in harm's way to get him
out of a situation if he waslikely to hurt somebody else.
This is interesting.
Lauren Langman (11:51):
This is a really interesting one because I
really feel and this is againprobably a debate for maybe off
Sex and Squirrel podcast, buthey, we're here, let's chat it
through I know that the majorityof situations that he's going
to come across with another dog,I actually think there's a real
space and I think it's a hardone.
It's definitely a hard one forus positive reinforcement style
trainers, but it's a hard one.
(12:12):
It's definitely a hard one forus positive reinforcement style
trainers, but for me there's aspace.
For if that situation was tohappen, I think it would
actually diffuse a lot quickerthan you think and I think you
would flap a lot more than hewould.
I actually think it would belike handbags at dawn and then
it would be quite quickly overand dogs like him and say Mango
I think Mango is bigger than him, stronger than him and actually
mentally a little tougher thanhim and I think it would just be
(12:32):
a bit of a shake it off andhandbags at dawn and it would be
over.
I don't feel like there'sanything real malice-y in there
and anything that's reallyfollowed up with hard bite, very
different to some of theTerriers.
I train some of the Staffies.
I train some of the Pitbulls Itrain Like.
I really love all of them.
They're beautiful dogs butthey've got very different
(12:58):
follow-through and their endresult is bite to kill and I
think that is very much whatthey have been hard bred to do.
And that's not a criticism ofthe breeds.
I love them.
I think they're fantasticbreeds and one of my breeds that
I will own in my lifetime is astaffy.
I will own a staffy.
I just own too many wigglylittle dogs and many, many
chickens right now and cats, sofor me they're the wrong breed
for my house and my setupbecause I have too many.
In fact, today we were feedinga chicken in our house, right,
karen?
So we do know that.
However, I feel like there's aspace for that and I feel
(13:18):
there's a space for that withappropriate stooge dogs and
that's something I'd love togrow and love to give ourselves
a bit more time to do becauseappropriate stooge dogs in those
scenarios as much as we don'twant to set a dog up for failure
I feel like we'd be setting thescenario appropriately for
success and for a level oflearning and also level of owner
confidence.
I agree, maybe a vulnerablechild, but that's about it,
everyone else I'd say could fendfor themselves.
Karen (13:40):
Yeah, I agree, don't go in the same space at all.
But yeah, I mean there is.
I think there is a.
There's a scarcity thing there.
To some extent it's moreimportant because it doesn't
happen at all.
So he doesn't interact withother dogs because he doesn't
really like other dogs, and Iknow he can react to other dogs,
yeah, um.
So yeah, definitely a scarcity.
Lauren Langman (13:57):
It's become a bigger thing than it potentially
actually is.
Yeah, which is interesting,isn't it really interesting?
Space.
Now another thing.
If I think about resourceguarding, I know that tricks
have helped you loads.
I don't know if you want toexplain to everybody listening
hey, sexy and squirrel podcastlisteners tricks, tricks, tricks
and tricks.
If you want to explain toeverybody listening hey, sexy
and Squirrel podcast listenerstricks, tricks, tricks and
tricks If you haven't alreadyrealised, you know what.
We have a mega, mega, megatrick space, mega tricks book.
(14:18):
If you're listening from GamesClub or if you're listening from
Pro Dog Trainer Club, youprobably know this.
If you're not listening fromGames Club, then where on earth
have you been?
Join the Games Club?
It's our immense space for dogtraining and learning, but at
the bare minimum, I'd say, forbasics, for everyone, get hold
of the tricks book.
Now, you love the tricks bookand I know that you have played
many, many, many, many tricksfrom that book and I know
(14:39):
they've helped you hugely.
How have they helped you andhow have they helped you?
Karen (14:43):
well, firstly, relationship because he is quite
a tricky dog.
I mean, resource guarding isnot the only struggle we have.
I touched on dog dog reactivity.
He he is quite a challengingdog to live with and quite a
challenging dog to own.
So being able to do somethingthat's just fun but actually
also builds loads of skills atthe same time has been and he
looks so blooming cute playing.
Lauren Langman (15:03):
I was only talking about him yesterday with
um super kev one of our teamand super kev I was like he's so
damn cute and he's so damnnaughty, all in the same like
handful, like he's really cute,looks like a teddy bear.
You can see why everyone ends upwith a cockapoo dead, dead,
cute, really, really, reallyfunny, highly intelligent, which
I think is part of his downfall, really, and his problem, and
that's what I think um with somany of our naughty but nice
(15:25):
dogs and so many of oursensitive dogs very, very
intelligent and very, very quickto pair things.
But when we think about rue inthis environment and in this
space, uh, tricks, your favoritetricks, maybe give us two,
three, four of your favoritetricks or um reasons why they
help with disengagement andreasons why they help with
effectively resource guarding um.
Karen (15:46):
So I taught rupert to put his toys in a box.
Um, this was not any.
It wasn't taught for a resourceguarding purpose.
We taught it because it was funand because his retrieve wasn't
brilliant and I thought, well,let's work on retrieve in a fun
way.
But it actually has helped meout of resource guarding
situations quite a few times,because if he's nicked something
, the worst thing that you cando, as we've said, is try and
(16:08):
get it back or negotiate it back, um, and he's usually quite
heightened in terms of hisarousal or his excitement at
that point, so he's not aslikely to just trade it.
So if I was playing adeliberate game of of kind of
fetch or switch or somethinglike that, with socks or pants
or whatever else he's taking afancy to, he's still got his
(16:30):
energy pitched at the levelwhere you can trade and he'll
drop it for food and that's.
That's an intentional,purposeful game.
But it notches up a bit whenhe's nicked it, particularly if
you've clocked.
Lauren Langman (16:42):
He's nicked it and then he's clocked that
you've clocked he's already inthat heightened space, isn't it
like he's already there?
His arousal's up, yourarousal's also up, everyone's
kind of like up here in buckets,are suddenly filling very fast
and so, yeah, it's a differentspace to work.
Karen (16:58):
Yeah so, rather than even trying to trade at that point,
because I know that's unlikelyto work, um, I turn it into a
game.
So I get a whole load of othersocks or pants or balls, or it
doesn't actually really matterwhat it is, but I just chuck
them all on the floor and thenhe will.
Typically.
It might take a while, buthe'll typically leave that one
and come and play his game andput everything else in the box,
(17:21):
not that one.
He never starts with that oneas he's stolen, but eventually,
once you put enough in, you cansend him for the one that you're
such an amazing owner.
Lauren Langman (17:29):
I listen and I'm like, oh R Rupert, you're so
blooming lucky.
If only you realised it likesuch, such and I get that's not
how how dogs think and dogs workand dogs brains work, but he's
so, so, so, so, so lucky to havean owner like you, because I
know in so many hands he wouldhave been put to sleep and I
think that so many owners hewould never have made a family
(17:49):
dog easily, I think, even withbrilliant dog training, I think
that he was, um, certainly a dogthat was destined for, for
trouble, and so he's.
You know what he's?
He's had a difficult, I'd say.
His genetics are very difficult, um, so I think that space is
there, plus early upbringing,not pre-u, and so we've got lots
of things we're going against,and I think genetics are
(18:09):
something that are very hard toto completely, um, right, like,
like, change the script on andat the same time, you're doing
such a great job here.
Karen (18:17):
So, karen, tell us another thing that you do with
reaper as a trick aroundresource guarding um, less of a
trick and more of a game, buttoy switch actually does help as
well.
Um so, again, it wouldn'tnecessarily work in the
situation, but it's a game or atrick or whatever you want to
call it.
That really kind of skills themup for the situation and
because you tend to play withtoys and you tend to play in
(18:37):
slightly higher arousal, it getsthat kind of disengaging
thinking brain happening inslightly higher levels of
excitement.
But I do also know where topitch it, and this is from
resource guarding experience aswell.
So there is one super duperhigh, high, high value squeaky
tug toy which is made withrabbit fur, which was one of his
(18:59):
very early toys, and I'velearned never to switch with
that because even if I had to dothe same, that pitches him so
high that he then can't switch.
Lauren Langman (19:09):
Yeah it's almost not useful.
You take him to a space.
Karen (19:11):
It's not useful, yeah but frisbees or socks, lots of
things we've done it with andit's just a really good.
You play with this one, it goesdead.
You play with this one, it goesdead.
Switch, switch, switch.
And then, before the arousalkicks too high, we stop and then
he'll have a Kong or aScassafied or something to bring
him back down again.
Lauren Langman (19:32):
Oh, such a lucky dog.
He's such a lucky dog.
Now.
I'm thinking anybody that'slistening you might have
experienced some level ofresource guarding struggles
yourself.
We have our 10 days to stopresource guarding and in that
course, I know that you're goingto see lots of opportunities
for progression for your dog,but also lots of opportunities
that you, as an owner, canimprove.
It's just 27 pound.
(19:53):
It's to all of our listenersright now, so it's a mega, mega
mega discount.
It's from 97.
Now owners that are listening.
Karen, I think this is really,really key.
If you are an owner listeningand I think there are loads of
you guys out there and you mightshare it you might be one of
the pro dog trainers that wantsto share it with all of your
students.
So that is great, great freelearning for them.
I think one of the biggestthings we've got to do is train
(20:13):
ourself to do the opposite ofwhat our dogs are almost begging
us to do.
Right, they're bringing you thething and telling you they've
got it, and they're looking atyou like I'm going to crunch
this, um, or they're kind ofhappily dancing around whilst
you're going.
Oh, my god, that's my like brandnew remote or that's my brand
new, whatever it is, or that'sthe thing I really don't want
you to have.
Or in fact, one um student'sdog got hold of a wedding ring.
(20:33):
So I've had a student's doghave a wedding ring and that was
um dramatic, for sure, andquite traumatic for the owners
until it came out, and actuallya whole adventure of
investigating poo for like aweek.
But the owner is important here, like how do you, as an owner,
(20:57):
offer the self-control thatyou're, because it's not
automatic to do the opposite ofwhat you want to do when these
scenarios happen?
Karen (21:05):
right?
No, it's not.
And actually my dad has beenbitten because he has done what
is the natural thing to do,which is see that Rupert's
picked up some rubbish on a walkand try and take it from him,
whereas actually what you needto do is the exact opposite,
that you need to not give anyindication that you're remotely
bothered to be eating somethingdisgusting.
Um, whereas my inclination, ifI wasn't thinking, would be to
(21:27):
kind of tighten the lead, tryand pull him away from it.
That makes him dig in harder.
So you actually really have torelax and then just kind of
loosen everything off.
I don't care what you're eating, don't?
Lauren Langman (21:39):
care you can be eating all of the disgusting
things, and you really have toldme some disgusting things.
Oh, he's eaten some reallydisgusting things and they've
been in his beard, whichactually gives me like pretty
sick feeling right now, like I'mfeeling pretty ill.
I don't think you've even heardthe worst one, but it's not for
the vodka.
Oh God, don't.
Literally, I can imagine.
And the thing with Roo is thatyou are so good at just being
(22:00):
like, yeah, I'm not bothered,but deep down you are bothered.
Karen (22:02):
I am bothered because he's probably eating.
I mean, he's got allergies aswell, so best case, he's
probably eating something that'sgoing to make him itch, because
even if he was eating somesirloin steak it would make him
itch.
So you've got thatconsideration.
Most often it's not sirloinsteak, it's something way more
disgusting.
So I don't want him eating that.
(22:23):
I put a lot of effort intogiving him a good diet.
I don't want him eatingsomething rancid off the street.
It could be dangerous.
Lauren Langman (22:31):
I had a recent student's dog that ate cannabis,
so it made itself really reallypretty ill and found cannabis
on the street.
I don't know who was throwingcannabis, but hey, there you go,
um, and so this dog had foundcannabis and or hiding cannabis,
I don't know um, and and thething is that this dog ate it
and um was immediately, prettymuch within an hour, was in vet
hospital under serious medicalcare.
(22:53):
Uh, fitting um and prettypretty um death door did make it
and has come out and completelyfine.
But those are the sorts ofthings that can happen when your
dog's out there and eatingthings from the street and then
you have to be really nonchalantand not bothered and be kind of
casual about the scenario,right, yeah, definitely you have
to pretend that you do not careand it is not a big deal, and
(23:14):
sometimes a little bit of a herescatter feed will eventually
kind of do the bringing thebrain somewhere else thing.
Karen (23:23):
Um, but it has to be.
Well, there's some food if youwant it.
It's got to be so genuine, it'sso genuine.
Lauren Langman (23:30):
I think this is where most people go wrong.
So most people, when I've beenin a day-to-day training
situation with them, they throwthe piece in the food.
They're like what's this,what's this, what's this?
Look at this, look at this nice.
Look at this nice food.
Look at this nice food.
And the second, the dog, comesover to it.
You can see all of thatperson's energy and intention at
the other thing and they'vesuddenly become like oh, the
other thing is free, let me dashto the other thing.
(23:50):
And I'm like you really can'tbe anywhere near the other thing
until that dog's out of thatscenario.
So that dog has to be in acompletely different space.
Whether that's my vehicle,whether that's another room,
whether that's a crate, whetherthat's a pen, whether it's a
gate, I prefer they can't evensee.
I prefer they can't even see.
Sniff or hear me, because somedogs I absolutely know that
Liza's little dog, katie wouldknow exactly what you were doing
(24:11):
.
She'd know that you're walkingthere.
She'd sense exactly where youwere in the space, in the house.
She wouldn't have to see you.
She wouldn't have to see you.
She wouldn't have to see you.
And then next time you ask herto trade something she's got,
that learning history and thefact that you didn't trade it
appropriately last time and youwent back and got that hedgehog,
and she knows it because thathedgehog had gone and she'd be
in the house for a good week ortwo after looking to see that
that hedgehog might have comeback or might be back in that
(24:32):
space.
And those are those dogs withthat like learning, memory
patterning.
Uh, they're difficult forowners to manage.
Karen (24:38):
Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier on the fact
that he is super duper, duperquick to pair things, but only
negative things or things youdon't want him to pair, whereas
learning, making a pairing,that's actually a positive,
helpful one, that that's a bitlacking, um but so interesting,
isn't it?
I think that pairing is sointeresting what I have noticed,
(25:01):
I think, is that by playing allthe games and by doing what we
do and by managing thesituations in the way that we do
and by skilling him up, evenwhen you're in those situations
and you feel like, actually, whyis this not doing what I want
it to do?
What is he really not learninganything?
He will mentally disengage fromstuff a lot quicker than he
used to do, so I can pick stuffup a lot quicker and actually,
(25:24):
once he's been engaged somewhereelse whether that's because
I've given him a chew or I'vegiven him something appropriate
or he's doing something elsehe's actually not that bothered
about the thing anymore so he'sonce, he's re-employed, and that
sort of learning and historynow and that sort of layer on
layer on layer of goodfoundation because you haven't
put yourself in that situation.
Lauren Langman (25:44):
I think that's that's really key.
So for someone with a resourceguard, I'm going to say please,
please, please, get out there.
It's £27.
Get the stop resource guardingopportunity here.
It's 10 days to stop resourceguarding, it's just £27.
It's to you as a Sex andSquirrel listener.
Go and get it, Karen.
For anybody that's consideringit do games work?
Is what we do at Games Clubgoing to help?
(26:05):
Is the fact that these guys canget a 10-day course going to
support them?
How do they go?
Karen (26:10):
forward?
Yeah, absolutely, and actuallyI mean, all the 10-day courses
are brilliant, so whateverstruggle they've got, they
should get one that matches thatstruggle.
But I think this one isparticularly good.
It's got so much in it and Ithink, even if you don't have a
resource guarding dog, it's agood one to get because it
really makes you think about it.
There's a lovely lady.
Lauren Langman (26:28):
She came on the resource guarding sessions that
we were teaching and she saidyou know what?
When I heard it was resourceguarding, I really was quite
disappointed.
I thought it'd be very boring.
But she said this was so muchfun, I learned loads.
And I learned no, it's not formy own dog, but actually for all
of the dogs I've worked with,and my own dog she's like.
I learned for a lot ofdifferent dogs, a lot of
different scenarios.
I think this is something weshould know for life.
(26:50):
With handling dogs, if youhandle dogs in any capacity, if
you work with dogs in anycapacity, if you um teach other
people with dogs, definitely ifyou own a resource guard, 100%
and I think this is quiteinteresting to say.
But how early did you know hewas a resource guard?
Karen (27:06):
I was quite early naive owner.
I think he was my first dog.
I didn't know a lot.
There were things I didn't doas well as I could have done if
I'd known better when I firsthad him, but the signs were
there really early.
Lauren Langman (27:18):
I think that's the thing.
The signs are there and thesigns are often there.
Now I have typically this is anodd one.
I've seen it in a lot of reddogs and I don't know what
that's about.
I haven't looked into that, Ihaven't.
I'm not saying anything thereat all, other than I've seen a
lot of red dogs with resourceguarding struggles and one of my
very first clients, who was aresource guard, she came to me
as a seven-month-old HungarianVigila puppy, beautiful,
(27:41):
beautiful dog.
Her owner is now one of my verybest friends.
She has since passed.
She died at nearly 18.
And so I taught her for manyyears we did agility.
She was a great, great dog.
I loved working with her.
Her name was Lyra and she was abeautiful Vigila, one of the
most beautiful, probably themost beautiful Vigila I have
ever worked with and met.
And what I really noticed withher is that her early upbringing
(28:04):
the owners very quickly becamescared of her.
So when she would grabsomething and growl, they would
back off and they didn't reallyknow what to do.
And quite quickly, thebehaviorists they work with and
there are so many people outthere that call themselves
behaviorists and for me Iactually just want to work with
a great dog trainer who hasskills and emotional capacity
for a dog.
I actually I'm not necessarilylooking for the fact they're a
behaviorist or not.
In fact there are manybehaviorists out there that I
(28:26):
would be concerned that they arecalling themselves behaviorists
.
So For me it's good emotionalcapacity to work with a dog and
good training, grounding andknowledge and actually skills
handling and working with dogs.
I think that for me is numberone.
(28:47):
But this behaviourist had saidbasically every time Lyra gets
near a resource and doesanything like this, pick her up
and remove her from a situationvery quickly.
You can see how that played outSort of 11 year old I think
Lizzie was at the time 11 yearold girl bitten by the dog.
Sort of 11-year-old I thinkLizzie was at the time
11-year-old girl bitten by thedog.
She picked the puppy up, movedout of the situation, become
sort of quite quickly scared ofthe dog once the dog started
nipping, biting and actuallyquite hard, aggressive, growling
and coming forward at people,and so she then disliked the dog
and she wanted her mum torehome the dog, as did her
(29:07):
sister, because they thought thedog was nuts.
But you can see how the typicalfamily is advised badly in these
scenarios and actually almostwrites the future by following
very, very outdated, archaic, umnutty advice.
Really go pick a dog up that isgrowling, warning you and
telling you they don't likesomething.
And so there are so many thingsthat maybe you don't read,
(29:30):
little things that people couldlook for with resource guarders.
Let's just do a couple of liketips tennis on them.
For me I'm going to saystillness, so stillness around
resources.
What would you say?
Karen (29:38):
um, well, as you mentioned growling, if you, if
you go near him or a dog who hasgot something and they're
communicating verbally that theydon't want you near, then that
is the first stage of a warningthat you don't want to escalate
beyond that absolutely.
Lauren Langman (29:53):
And growling, growling for me, I almost
celebrate the fact the doggrowls because at least they
warn me.
I remember being taught by uhbehaviorists a long, long time
ago and they said, basically tocorrect poppy growling, and very
quickly it went from growlingto biting, with no warning, and
that for me was such a massiveawakening.
And the other one, I would sayfor lots of you guys, an ability
to disengage from a toy soskittle.
She doesn't really resourceguard with me and I say yet, and
(30:15):
that's because she's atwo-year-old dog like that can,
that can grow, and when she'sgot hold of something she isn't
always able to let it go.
And that for me is, uh, whileshe's not growling over it and
really possessing it or doinganything, that worries me.
There's a real level of completeobsession with something.
I was playing something theother day with a turtle and
quite quickly, uh, in thissession I was playing with the
(30:37):
turtle, she became very, veryobsessed with the turtle and
then did not want to let theturtle go, to the point she
pulled the turtle's eye off.
The turtle is not a real turtle, it's a little model for your
like hand grip thing.
But I think that's massive,isn't it, but I think that's
really quite interesting, as thedog is not able to let this go
so effectively.
She wouldn't have been able totoy switch or she wouldn't have
been able to do any of thesethings.
The other thing she did was sheshowed me a different look from
(30:58):
her eye.
What would you say about eyesand resource guarding?
Karen (31:01):
yeah, your kind of sidey eye or whale eye, the kind of I
know you're there, I'm lookingat you and I'm not happy at all
and my face is showing you.
I'm not happy at all.
Lauren Langman (31:11):
Back off woman yeah, and it is, and that's
exactly the little face.
It's like take this thing offme and I kill you silent but
violent, and sometimes I'll getthat from her and I'm like, oh,
interesting, and for me again,like I said, she's never
resource guarded like in thetraditional growling or any of
those senses.
But I can see the warnings andthese are things that people say
.
I never believed it.
I didn't see any warnings.
There was not a warning to thisand you're like, no, they
(31:34):
warned you at every stage, youjust weren't listening, like you
weren't listening.
So those are some of the thingswe might see typically.
And another thing would bedesperate to get back to a space
.
So they're desperate to rushback to a space.
So maybe you've let them outfor a wee and they've followed
you, like dutifully, but thesecond they're in, they're back
at a space or they're back in acertain um sort of area of the
house.
Karen (31:53):
I see that as well or they take their things to a
corner out kind of out of theway.
Lauren Langman (31:57):
Sit on them yeah , I've also seen that like put
them under poppy would putthings under herself and then
like gather them another earlywarning with rupert, which I
didn't really understand at thetime.
Karen (32:08):
He used to be a dog who I could send to a dog sitter who
had other dogs.
I don't do that anymore, it'sjust he doesn't have the skills
for that just now.
But he had an issue with thedog sitter's own dog being
affectionate with his owner.
Rupert didn't like that at all,so effectively guarding the
(32:30):
person and that's what I findreally interesting.
Lauren Langman (32:32):
So some of the dogs that I've worked with
professionally here at thetraining center and also online
through our games club, throughour pro dog trainer club
actually they'll even resourcegot a space.
So a space is enough, or aspace near a doorway, or a space
near a sofa, or a space nearsomething and something of
meaning to them.
So there is some level ofpairing and sometimes you don't
even know the pairing.
So, uh, the funniest one that Ihad was a lady that rang me and
(32:52):
just was like help, I cannotget out of my kitchen.
Basically, my dogs are guardingthe living room.
It's my only door out of thehouse.
I've got an sos here like I needthe police or I need someone to
help me and you're a dogtrainer, you've been recommended
get me out of here.
And of course there's the gether out of there in the interim.
But there is also the deep andmeaningful conversation that
this training has to happen forlife and I think that so many
(33:13):
people get that part wrong thatthere is a level of management
and awareness and awakening atleast that this can be a
volatile situation.
Now you touched on at thebeginning that Rupert had bitten
.
Is that something that's aregular occurrence or is this
something that's very, verymanageable with the right
strategies, through what we dohere, through games?
Karen (33:28):
yeah, it's not regular at all.
Um, and I would say it's whenI've mismanaged it or when
somebody less aware of rupertand less kind of savvy with dogs
generally has handled him.
Um, I can manage it and I knowwhat to do and what not to do.
I know what his triggers are.
I'm fairly careful about what Ileave around.
(33:50):
If I've left something aroundthat he's got hold of, then
that's my fault I love thatyou're on it for your
responsibility versus hisresponsibility.
Lauren Langman (33:57):
You know he's not capable of certain things,
so you know he's not capable andso actually that's not his
responsibility.
Same as I know for Eliza, forexample, today she wanted to go
shopping and when I thoughtabout it and I thought about
where that was going, I was likeactually I know that you're not
(34:17):
capable of making this decision, that you don't have the money
to spend as to where we're goingand you also really have a lot
of other jobs to do.
Those are the things we need toprioritize.
Sometimes you've got to makethe adult decision in the
relationship.
Karen (34:21):
now, karen, I know you're a phenomenal owner for for him,
but anyone who's out therelistening any final words to to
say for them as to what they cando going forward or how they
can proceed, or even just wordsof encouragement well, I think,
first of all, if you do have adog who struggles, like Rupert
does and like lots of other dogsdo, um, you can definitely make
a difference, um, and it'sprobably you that needs to
(34:44):
change potentially as much asthe dog just in terms of how
you're managing it and howyou're seeing it, um, and find
ways to put fun into it, becauseit does make what's really
quite a tricky situation feel alot more lighthearted Mary
Poppins would definitely advise,wouldn't she?
Lauren Langman (35:00):
In every job that must be done, there
certainly can be an element offun.
So that was this episode of theSex and Squirrel podcast.
Thank you, karen, for joiningus.
Amazing opportunity Resourceguarding.
Please, please, please, sharethis episode.
Share it with friends, family,dog lovers, your father, your
sister, your mother, yourbrother, your long lost lover.
Ensure you share it and we'llsee you next time.
(35:21):
Remember, stay sexy you.
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