December 29, 2025 • 29 mins
What if your hardest seasons became the fuel for your life’s most meaningful work? We sit down with Dr. Oluwole Babatunde, a physician who turned early loss, cross-continental training, and relentless study into a compassionate career in psychiatry. From medical school and public health in Nigeria to a PhD in epidemiology and psychiatry residency in the United States, his story shows how purpose and discipline can shape resilience that lasts.
We explore how global research exposure sharpened his analytics, how humility and grit powered a move that meant starting over, and why psychiatry emerged as the place where his lived experience meets his clinical skill. Dr. Babatunde opens up about cases where depression and anxiety intertwine with life stressors like job loss, divorce, and homelessness, and how listening for the trigger matters as much as the treatment plan. He shares what faith looks like in practice without preaching: values that guide every interaction, quiet habits that sustain hope, and the simple, sincere goal of sending patients out ready to be the best version of themselves.
You’ll also get a tour of his book, Adapt and Advance, and its MAPLAMP framework. We break down how to find meaning in hardship, convert big dreams into daily actions, plan with clarity, build networks that protect your growth, and anchor your work in a personal mission. If you’ve ever wondered how to hold steady through change, or how faith and evidence can coexist in mental health care, this conversation offers both a philosophy and a toolkit you can use today.
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To hear more about Dr. Babatunde, please visit his website.
Purchase his book Adapt and Advance on amazon.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley Love (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast
where I take you into the behindthe scenes of the medical world
for to provide you with adeeper understanding of the
human side of medicine for.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor, and thecreator of Shadow Me Next Forum.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
Healthcare Field Forum anduncover their unique stories
about the choice and challengeand what drives them in their
career stuff.
What's access to want andstories you need for whether
you're a free house, thehealthcare fields for the
(00:44):
colour.
And my psychiatrist may be kindof the place where his lived
(01:32):
experience for and medicalskills finally met for.
We explore resiliences,education, and what it really
means to adapt without losingyourself for and advanced
without leaving others behind.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only for
(01:53):
and should not be considered asprofessional medical advice
stuff.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the hosting guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer, or company.
This is Shadow Me Next with Dr.
Aluole Baba Tounde.
Dr.
(02:13):
Babatunde, thank you so muchfor joining us today on Shadow
Me Next.
I cannot wait to chat with youabout your very, very
interesting career in medicine.
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (02:23):
Thank you so much, Ashley.
I'm so excited to be heretoday, and I'm glad to share
some of my story, hoping itinspires people.
Ashley Love (02:31):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And we will, we will, becauseyour story itself is inspiring.
And like most stories that aresuch, it does start off with a
little bit of tragedy.
So really stepping back intowhere you were first introduced
to medicine, your mother andyour father are both in
healthcare.
Your mother's a nurse and yourfather was a pharmacist.
And unfortunately, you lostthem quite young.
(02:52):
Would you say they are whoinspired you to enter medicine
originally?
Dr. Oluwole Babatun (02:56):
Definitely.
At least for the few years, momleft when I was seven, dad when
I was 13.
But at least for my dad, Ithink I watched him a little
(03:17):
more.
I saw I always saw him care forpeople, and I just wanted uh to
care for people on a deeperlevel, on a higher level.
Um, fortunately, after he died,then I was 13 years old.
Shortly after that, uh, one ofhis friends, who is a medical
doctor, you know, just tookinterest in me and was sharing
(03:38):
how he wanted to be a doctor atKudimbi, and he had a dream that
one of his kids would besaying, Wow, that's that works.
Ashley Love (03:44):
That is fantastic.
Speaker (03:46):
I'll be one of the kids that would at least carry on
that legacy of caring forpeople.
And I'm glad I was able to getinto medicine.
Ashley Love (03:54):
Absolutely.
Um, and you you were trained inmedicine in Nigeria originally,
is where you got your MD andyour master's of public health,
um, which of course is just thestart of your journey of all of
these incredible titles that youalso have.
I would love to chat about thattransition if we can, from
practicing medicine in Nigeriato practicing medicine in the
(04:16):
United States.
And of course, once you got tothe US, you also got your PhD in
epidemiology as well.
And now you're practicingpsychiatrist.
Tell us a little bit about thattransition.
Was that smooth sailing?
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (04:29):
Of course, every good thing comes
with challenges.
So some of it was smooth, butof course, it's always every
good thing always has challengesbuilt into it.
And that's the way I look atlife.
And that's one of the reasons Iwrote the book, Adapt in
Advance, letting people realizethat at every stage of life, uh,
there will always bechallenges, there will be things
that will be difficult, andwe've just got to adapt, meaning
(04:52):
we adjust to it without losingourselves or losing our minds.
And then to advance meansdespite the problems that come
with it, we are able to stillcontinue to go forward and make
progress in everything that welay our hands upon.
So the transition was onebecause uh so after I practiced,
I finished medicine in Nigeria,I did residency community
(05:13):
medicine, and I practiced in thecommunity for three years
before I left.
And during that practice, twothings became very obvious to
me.
One, uh I loved research, whichI was already doing during my
master's in public health andresidency in Nigeria.
So I had the privilege topresent some of my papers in the
US then uh as a visitor, andthen to I remembered my very
(05:36):
first international trip wasBrazil, then Canada, then US.
So then UK, those four trips uhkind of uh uh opened my eyes to
see that whatever I was doingin terms of research with my
Nigerian MD and Nigerian MPH,there was just a lot to still
learn uh at that time.
If I remember one of my postersI presented in Canada, I felt
(05:58):
really like, oh, this doesn'tlook like every other person's
poster.
I'm like even little thingslike that.
Uh it was like the qualitywasn't just so good.
And I just felt I needed tolearn more in terms of the
carrying out research itself,higher level of analysis that I
can do in a place whereresources are not going to be a
(06:19):
big challenge to learning.
So I felt either US, UK,Canada, whichever one works out,
would be good for me.
So that was number one reason Ileft.
Number two reason was during mythree-year practice after
becoming an attending inNigeria, I saw a lot of cases
that were psychiatry related.
And I started thinking in myheart, like looking at all my
(06:42):
past story, I think psychiatryseems to be the best fit uh for
me in terms of practicingmedicine.
Because I call it, I callpsychiatry like the
subspeciality that is closest tobeing a pastor, in court,
because we get to hear people'sproblems a lot.
You know, for someone to comedown with depression almost
(07:02):
always, there's always one lastbig trigger.
Maybe it's a divorce, maybeit's unemployment, maybe it's
you know, financial problems,whatever it is, homelessness,
you know, we get to see thisevery single day.
People having going throughstressors, precipitating either
depression, precipitating eitheranxiety for some people,
(07:24):
precipitating even schizophreniafor some people, although they
all have most of mostly theyhave biologic basis, but at the
same time, they almost alwaysintersect with one stressor
going on in their lives.
So I decided, okay, uh, I'llcome to the US with my PhD, and
after that, I'm going to dopsychiatric residences so I
(07:46):
could use my story the best.
Not that I tell all patients mystory, no, but at least I could
relate with them on a deeperlevel and be able to empathize
and be able to show compassion,even as I care for them every
single day.
So the transition wasrelatively okay.
I got the admission with youknow some scholarship here and
(08:08):
there.
Uh so it was, but it was ofcourse tough.
I came with my wife and tookit.
So we had to adjust to a newculture.
We had to leave a big house inNigeria for a very tiny place in
the US that we could afford.
And, you know, but you know, wekept moving on and moving on
and moving on.
And we are grateful that thingseventually have worked out over
(08:31):
the years.
Yeah.
Ashley Love (08:32):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr.
Babatunde, thank you so muchfor foreshadowing so much of the
amazing things we're going totalk about too.
We are absolutely going to talkabout your book, Adapt in
Advance.
I think it is such a gift topeople.
And um, believe it or not,we're also gonna talk a little
bit about faith in medicine aswell, because that's something
that is so important to you.
And um, and I think that it isuh it's a conversation that
(08:56):
people do shy away from, butit's one that is always
underlying, right?
There's always, it's alwaysright there under the surface,
like you mentioned.
Um, let's step back just asecond and talk about all of
these titles that we've justmentioned, right?
MD, MPH, which is the Mastersof Public Health.
Um, and then of course we needto throw epidemiology in there
as well at some point.
How did you make all of thesedifferent decisions?
(09:16):
And and how where did you findall of these, where did you find
yourself in all of these roles?
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (09:22):
Yeah, so um that's a great question,
Ashley.
Um, in terms of my MD, like Ialready mentioned, you know, I
even when I was a kid, I alreadymade up my mind I was going to
be a doctor, even before theloss of my parents.
And then after the loss of myparents, when a friend of my dad
was like, oh, he really wishedone of his kids was one.
So okay, I'll try my best to bethat kid.
(09:42):
That would be one.
Um, so getting to medicine wasrough and tough at like like
everywhere in the world, youhave to take exams and pass
exams and all of that.
So I had to do that.
I remember one exam I had to doagain for another year before I
could get enough points to getme into medical school.
But it was, you know, it wastough, but it was doable.
(10:03):
So I got in, I was glad.
Uh, but that was thatexperience also prepared me for
medical school.
And, you know, I made up mymind from day one, I'm going to
graduate because not alleverybody who gets into medical
school graduates.
But it was so bad in Nigeriathen that like my school, I'm
sure maybe not more than 50% ofus that started actually
(10:26):
finished.
You know, it was just veryrough.
But I decided I was going tofinish and I was going to finish
well.
Many challenges, difficultexams, but you know, we go
through it.
And um masters in public healthcame along.
It was an opportunity we had todo it because in community
medicine we do a lot of kind ofresearch and we do a lot of
(10:47):
things that are related topublic health.
So that was how masters inpublic health came on.
Then the PhD I already gave youa little bit, was because I
just realized I was presentingat conferences, and I realized
there was a lot of things beingsaid that I just didn't know in
terms of analysis, and I justwanted to be good at whatever I
(11:07):
was doing.
And uh felt uh I wouldn't getthe best if I stayed back in it
to do my PhD in Nigeria.
I just wanted to do it in aplace where there's a lot of
resources and where I can, youknow, have access.
Being here, it's just easy tolearn it, have access to it much
more easily compared to uh whenI was in Nigeria.
So that was what brought me toPhD epidemiology, uh, because it
(11:30):
was closer to so it was closerto masters in public as that was
the closest thing to it.
Uh just continuing from where Istopped in Nigeria.
Uh, so that was what uhepidemiology.
Then after that, we haveresidency in psychiatry, which I
already touched a little bitabout.
I really felt um that burden inmy heart to do a specialty in
(11:54):
the US where I could be veryempathetic and I could really
relate with what people aregoing through.
I haven't lost my mom at seven,lost my dad at 13, uh, and been
through a lot of financialhardship going through school
and all of that.
I it's I I I relate easily withpeople, and I I find it easy to
(12:17):
empathize and be able to, youknow, reach out to them on that
level of it's going to be okay.
Uh it's life can really bedifficult for us at times.
And um, so that brings us tothe PhD, then the residency in
the US in psychiatry.
And I think, yeah, so that'sour but in in all of it, I think
(12:39):
the biggest for me is which Iwould say to everybody listening
is no matter what level you areright now, depending on our
purpose.
So one thing I would say is wehave different purposes and we
have to understand what ourpurpose is.
Does everybody really need togo to school this long?
I don't believe so.
I believe for some people, youknow, for example, you discover
(13:01):
your purpose very early, and youknow my purpose is to be a
businessman, for example, youknow, and you know how to get
there, of course, go ahead.
I'm off there.
But I I always encourage everyyoung people to at least get as
much formal education as theyare able to.
Um, not necessarily a PhD, evenif bachelor's is just what you
(13:24):
believe is unique for what youhave.
I I strongly believe it'simportant for us to get some.
A chapter in my book wasdedicated to formal education.
But I also had a chapter rightnext to it where I talked about
informal education, meaningthere's a lot we can learn
without even going to school atall.
And we look, we don't need, youknow, we just need to look all
(13:46):
around us.
We see a lot of very successfulpeople with not so much of
formal education.
So it's formal education is noteverything, but I believe a
little bit of it, if only ifonly what it trains us is the
discipline of beginning andfinishing something.
You know, I believe it's adiscipline we need in our works
(14:06):
today.
And you know, the process oflearning every day, waking up,
going to classes, you know, itteaches you something that stays
with you forever.
Try hard to get at least abachelor's minimum.
That's my recommendation.
It's not compulsory.
We have a lot of successfulpeople without it, but I would
still recommend it at least forthe discipline that you get from
(14:27):
it.
And then, you know, it helps tojust see life in a different
way, the people you meet alongthe journey and all of that.
Ashley Love (14:34):
No, it's beautiful.
And it exemplifies a reallyimportant equation in medicine,
and that's purpose, which iswhat you've mentioned, plus
discipline, which is also whatyou've mentioned, equals
resiliency.
And I think that is somethingin medicine that we have to
have, especially with you andyour journey.
I mean, unfortunately, yourresiliency started developing
very, very, very young when youwere still a child, basically.
(14:55):
Um, but but without purpose,you know, we we can't, we we
don't have that heart focus.
And without discipline, well,we we haven't overcome
challenges, you know, and youneed both of those to really
develop resiliency, to realizeyou are where you need to be,
doing what you need to do.
And I I love that.
I think that is just that's sobeautiful.
Dr.
Baba Tunde, before we get intoa day in your life as a
(15:17):
psychiatrist, um, would you havedone anything differently?
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (15:20):
Honestly, I don't think so.
Including even the loss of myparents, um, in as much as
tragic as it was.
Maybe time has passed and I'velooked back uh again and again.
I meditate a lot, I thinkthrough things.
Uh I don't think I would havechosen anything different
(15:41):
looking back at everything andwhere I am today.
Of course, I'm not yet where Iwant to be.
There's just still a whole lotof plans in front.
I have 50-year plans at leastfrom where I am, uh, that I
plan, you know, one after theother.
I have a five-year plan.
I have, of course, I plan everyweek, I plan every month, I
plan every year.
And I have many other things Istill want to do and the and how
(16:04):
I want to impact, you know,with my story uh to people.
But looking back, I don't thinkthere's anything I will have
chosen differently.
Um, I the you know, I readbooks a lot, like I read one
book every week beginning fromyear 2000.
And but most of it is audio, sothat makes it easier.
My whole idea about reading,and I encourage people to do
(16:26):
that, is I say at least one bookevery month to every young
person growing up.
A book that can encourage you,that can stimulate you, that can
help you know that you know, nomatter what you're going
through, people have beenthrough this before, not to
minimize your pain.
Uh so I reference that becauseI read a book and I've read a
lot of stories of people fromtime to time, and these stories
(16:49):
always encourage me to know thatpeople have been through very
difficult situations.
Of course, every person isunique, every situation is
unique.
So I don't want to minimizeanybody's pain or to just say
anything is similar to eachother.
No, there's you are differentand the dynamics of your life is
different, but you can learnfrom other people.
(17:10):
I read a lot, I learn fromother people, but I also believe
there's also the place for yourown personal experience that
you know reading might not beable to substitute completely
for that.
So learning is good from otherpeople, but there are some
things you are also meant toexperience or go through as a
person to help you uh goingforward.
Ashley Love (17:33):
The personal experience is something that we
we speak so highly about, Ithink, because we are proud of
our experiences.
But like you mentioned,sometimes those personal
experiences are traumatic orthey're not desired, you know,
like you mentioned, thoseexperiences are what builds
resiliency.
So if you are in the heavy ofone of those moments where you
(17:54):
just don't know which way is up,you don't know which way to
turn for, if you can take a stepback and say, you know, perhaps
this is one of those resiliencybuilding moments.
And if I can just continue toforge through, if I continue to
put one foot in front of theother and build on this
situation, let's use it forgood.
And um, adapt in advance is abook that we've talked about
(18:15):
already.
And this is really your giftand a great place to start for
anybody who might findthemselves in that situation.
And I giggle, adapt in advance.
It makes me think of yourbackground in epidemiology.
There's plenty of things thatare adapting and advancing there
as well.
But tell us a little bit moreabout this book.
Primarily, who is this bookfor?
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (18:37):
Okay.
Yeah, that's very exciting tome, Ashley.
Uh, so I wrote this bookbecause I wanted to put my story
out and let people know nomatter what you are going
through, um you can adapt.
And what that means is you canadjust without losing your mind,
(18:58):
without losing yourself.
And then you can advance,meaning you can go forward
despite the challenges that youare going through.
Honestly, I would say this bookis for everyone, everyone,
because we all go throughchallenges, but most for young
people, uh, people in college,uh, people in high school, just
(19:21):
because it's a vitaldevelopmental moment of our life
where we are trying to developour philosophy of life and
understand how best life shouldplay out for us.
So it's important for us.
I would say the things Ilearned at those stages of my
(19:41):
life were very, very helpful forme.
And that's when I actually Iwas in college when I started
reading one book every week.
And I think that that would bethe best decision of my life if
I'm asked to say one thing thathas been most helpful for me in
my life is reading.
Ashley Love (20:40):
What did it explain how I fill it for others to
find it?
And what does it teach me aboutresilience, empathy, or
purpose?
And then practice telling thatstory with reflection, not
performance.
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review over on
ShadowmeNext.com.
There you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
(21:01):
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (21:04):
Not necessarily school books, of
course.
I have to read school books topass my exams, but learning
about life generally.
Just, you know, so much we canlearn from people that have
succeeded or people that havegone ahead.
And so Adapt and Advance is abook for young people mainly,
but generally for everybody.
In it, I used seven uh section,seven main sections.
(21:29):
I used the map lamp acronym, Mmeaning making.
Uh, I pulled from VictorFranco's book on Man's Search
for Meaning.
It was one of the Holocaustsurvivors, and he said he gave
three main ways to make meaning,which has stayed with me so
much.
I use it, I make meaning of anychallenging situation I passed
(21:50):
through in life very quicklybecause of that book.
He said one is to look at thebig picture or how you can help
people despite the problemyou're having.
So you are not, you whateveryou are going through does not
stop you from still having asmile in the middle of it.
It might be tough, uh, or stillbeing able to help people in
the middle of it.
(22:11):
That means you are looking atthe bigger picture.
That this problem has not cometo destroy me or grind me to a
halt.
Rather, it has come to build meup.
So, which brings us to thesecond thing is your attitude
towards the problem.
So we need to have the rightattitude towards whatever we are
going through.
I'm not saying it's going to beeasy.
It was never easy.
(22:31):
I can smile about talking aboutmy past now, but there were
days I cried.
There were days I locked myselfup in the room.
I'm like, cried.
I'm like, God, why did thishappen to me?
How I wished that you know myparents were here, especially
those times when you see otherpeople, you know, doing very
well, supportive parents, andyou are just there, and you
(22:51):
know, it's just so tough to evenget tuition for school paid,
and you just don't even knowwhat the next day holds.
So, but in the midst ofeverything, our attitude towards
it matters a lot.
And the third one isexperiencing someone or
something, which could beexperiencing nature, it could be
experiencing a loved one.
For me, I experienced musicevery day because one hiding
(23:17):
place for me the most since Ilost my parents was music.
Music was very helpful.
I remember even then I'll picka church hymn book and read.
I remember the songs we sang attheir phone era, it was very
comforting to me at verydifficult periods.
And all of that was very, veryhelpful for experience.
So that's money-making.
Hey, it's action.
Action is action, we don't haveto say a lot about it.
(23:38):
You've just got to put actionbehind your dreams.
Dreams only come to pass whenyou back it up with action.
You know, I have all thosedegrees, I have all this
schooling, but it's been a lotof action, a lot of work.
And now that I'm doneschooling, I'm grateful.
I'm also even still workingvery hard.
Every single day I put in mybest to what I'm doing.
(24:00):
I always tell myself everymorning, part of my confessions
every morning to myself is Iwant to go to my bed at night
empty.
Empty meaning I want to pourout every good thing in me that
I'm that is that is in me to bea blessing to people around me.
My patients, my residents, mystudents, everybody, co-workers.
I want to go to bed empty everynight so that when I die in my
(24:22):
old age, I want to go to mygrave empty.
Everything that is in me, Iwant to pour it out.
So action is what leads tothat, put action behind things.
You just don't dream, putaction behind it.
Wake up every morning and dosomething.
One thing every day towardsyour big dreams in life.
P is planning, you know.
I use the cops model, which isclarify, capture first.
(24:43):
Thoughts come to your mind, youdon't want to lose it.
Capture it, are you stickingout till capture, clarify your
thoughts, um, plan, thenprioritize it, simplify it.
You use that framework, youknow, to keep planning every
day.
And then L is learning.
I've talked about this.
One book a week for me.
I recommend one book a monthfor everybody listening.
Really listen to books thathelps you, that helps encourage
(25:06):
you.
Read biographies of people whoyou want your life to look like
when you grow up.
You know, I do that all thetime.
And then um, A is allianceformation, you know,
relationship, good relationshipwith people, M is mission
statement.
So you've got to have a missionstatement, whatever, no matter
how little it is, if I just sayit's just to be a blessing to
(25:27):
people or to be a good father,good mother, or good spouse,
whatever it is, your missionstatement.
Have something.
I have mine that I say tomyself every single day.
And the last one is peace,prayer or prayer equivalent.
You know, if you are a personof faith, prayer might be easy.
If you're not a person offaith, I believe there are
prayer mental equivalents thatare also equivalent to what
prayer is for everybody.
So that's the structure I usein the book.
(25:50):
And I every chapter I wrote,every chapter I shared my
personal stories, and I sharethe stories of other successful
people that you used toprinciple in that chapter.
So it's a book I recommendstrongly to everybody to read.
Ashley Love (26:03):
It is such a wonderful book.
You know, I'm gonna I'm gonnaquickly rattle off those things
that you just elaborated on.
Look at the big picture, have agood attitude, experience
something, putting action behindyour dreams.
I love that.
That is a great takeaway.
Planning, learning, alliance.
That means being inrelationships, um, having a
mission statement that goes backto our purpose, right?
(26:23):
And then prayer.
And that is just a perfecttakeaway for us to wrap up with.
And that is prayer and faith,um, whatever that might look
like for you.
Dr.
Papatunde, what would you sayto somebody who says that faith
and medicine are not symbiotic,that they don't belong together?
Speaker (26:44):
I I would say, you know, for me, I see that they
belong together because one wayor the other, everything I do,
uh, you know, they come from thesame source for me.
And I strongly believe they mixtogether one way or the other.
Um, faith, you know, even in,for example, in psychiatry,
(27:04):
there's a lot of research, forexample, that shows that people
who are of faith tend to dobetter with certain disorders
because their faith tends tohelp them, you know, be more
resilient uh um during it.
And even, for example, thingslike addiction, you know, uh,
for example, AA that people goto, one of the reasons are
(27:24):
called anonymous is successful,is because they believe in a
higher power.
They use higher power, ofcourse, not necessarily a
particular faith, whatever youbelieve in.
At times we just want to holdon to something higher than us,
and um, I believe that'ssomething that helps.
So I believe they mix together,and most of what I do, of
course, I don't mention my faiththat will work like that to
(27:45):
patients.
Um, you know, but I most of myvalues from my faith, I leave it
out every day and in myday-to-day interactions with
people.
The biggest, for example, forthe Christian faith is to the
two big laws is to love God,love others.
So I believe the world would bea good place if we all uh love
others, at least, you know, thesecond one.
(28:07):
Uh it's good if we do thingsout of love and out of a mission
in that I want to be a blessingto other people.
So I believe they mix togetheruh one way or the other because
it could serve as thefoundation.
People want to talk toproviders that are real, that
are genuine, and that are ableto empathize with them, not just
(28:30):
doing it for the sake of themoney.
Of course, the money is a goodpart of it, but I want every
patient that leaves me toremember me for something.
I always leave them with one,for example.
I always tell them, you know,um, to always be the best
version of yourself whenever I'mdischarging a patient.
I always tell them, I want youto remind me for this one thing.
So I want them to, I want toleave a good taste in their
(28:52):
mouth.
Not that I just treated themand gave them medications alone,
but I want them to go and knowthat someone truly cares about
them.
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (29:03):
That's beautiful.
That's amazing.
Dr.
Baba Tounde, his book is Adaptand Advance, a faith-based
step-by-step guide to turningtrials into triumphs, it's
available on Amazon.
I'll link it in the show notesbelow.
Thank you so much for takingthe time today for describing
your journey and uh for justbeing such an incredible human.
Thank you.
Thank you, actually.
(29:24):
I'm deeply grateful.
Thanks for having me.
Ashley Love (29:26):
Thank you so very much for listening to this
episode of Shadow Me Networks.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday.
As always, if you have anyquestions, let me know on
Facebook or Instagram.
Access you want or stories youneed.
You're always invited to ShadowMe Networks.
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast
where I take you into the behindthe scenes of the medical world
for to provide you with adeeper understanding of the
human side of medicine for.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor, and thecreator of Shadow Me Next Forum.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
Healthcare Field Forum anduncover their unique stories
about the choice and challengeand what drives them in their
career stuff.
What's access to want andstories you need for whether
you're a free house, thehealthcare fields for the
(00:44):
colour.
And my psychiatrist may be kindof the place where his lived
(01:32):
experience for and medicalskills finally met for.
We explore resiliences,education, and what it really
means to adapt without losingyourself for and advanced
without leaving others behind.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only for
(01:53):
and should not be considered asprofessional medical advice
stuff.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the hosting guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer, or company.
This is Shadow Me Next with Dr.
Aluole Baba Tounde.
Dr.
(02:13):
Babatunde, thank you so muchfor joining us today on Shadow
Me Next.
I cannot wait to chat with youabout your very, very
interesting career in medicine.
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (02:23):
Thank you so much, Ashley.
I'm so excited to be heretoday, and I'm glad to share
some of my story, hoping itinspires people.
Ashley Love (02:31):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And we will, we will, becauseyour story itself is inspiring.
And like most stories that aresuch, it does start off with a
little bit of tragedy.
So really stepping back intowhere you were first introduced
to medicine, your mother andyour father are both in
healthcare.
Your mother's a nurse and yourfather was a pharmacist.
And unfortunately, you lostthem quite young.
(02:52):
Would you say they are whoinspired you to enter medicine
originally?
Dr. Oluwole Babatun (02:56):
Definitely.
At least for the few years, momleft when I was seven, dad when
I was 13.
But at least for my dad, Ithink I watched him a little
(03:17):
more.
I saw I always saw him care forpeople, and I just wanted uh to
care for people on a deeperlevel, on a higher level.
Um, fortunately, after he died,then I was 13 years old.
Shortly after that, uh, one ofhis friends, who is a medical
doctor, you know, just tookinterest in me and was sharing
(03:38):
how he wanted to be a doctor atKudimbi, and he had a dream that
one of his kids would besaying, Wow, that's that works.
Ashley Love (03:44):
That is fantastic.
Speaker (03:46):
I'll be one of the kids that would at least carry on
that legacy of caring forpeople.
And I'm glad I was able to getinto medicine.
Ashley Love (03:54):
Absolutely.
Um, and you you were trained inmedicine in Nigeria originally,
is where you got your MD andyour master's of public health,
um, which of course is just thestart of your journey of all of
these incredible titles that youalso have.
I would love to chat about thattransition if we can, from
practicing medicine in Nigeriato practicing medicine in the
(04:16):
United States.
And of course, once you got tothe US, you also got your PhD in
epidemiology as well.
And now you're practicingpsychiatrist.
Tell us a little bit about thattransition.
Was that smooth sailing?
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (04:29):
Of course, every good thing comes
with challenges.
So some of it was smooth, butof course, it's always every
good thing always has challengesbuilt into it.
And that's the way I look atlife.
And that's one of the reasons Iwrote the book, Adapt in
Advance, letting people realizethat at every stage of life, uh,
there will always bechallenges, there will be things
that will be difficult, andwe've just got to adapt, meaning
(04:52):
we adjust to it without losingourselves or losing our minds.
And then to advance meansdespite the problems that come
with it, we are able to stillcontinue to go forward and make
progress in everything that welay our hands upon.
So the transition was onebecause uh so after I practiced,
I finished medicine in Nigeria,I did residency community
(05:13):
medicine, and I practiced in thecommunity for three years
before I left.
And during that practice, twothings became very obvious to
me.
One, uh I loved research, whichI was already doing during my
master's in public health andresidency in Nigeria.
So I had the privilege topresent some of my papers in the
US then uh as a visitor, andthen to I remembered my very
(05:36):
first international trip wasBrazil, then Canada, then US.
So then UK, those four trips uhkind of uh uh opened my eyes to
see that whatever I was doingin terms of research with my
Nigerian MD and Nigerian MPH,there was just a lot to still
learn uh at that time.
If I remember one of my postersI presented in Canada, I felt
(05:58):
really like, oh, this doesn'tlook like every other person's
poster.
I'm like even little thingslike that.
Uh it was like the qualitywasn't just so good.
And I just felt I needed tolearn more in terms of the
carrying out research itself,higher level of analysis that I
can do in a place whereresources are not going to be a
(06:19):
big challenge to learning.
So I felt either US, UK,Canada, whichever one works out,
would be good for me.
So that was number one reason Ileft.
Number two reason was during mythree-year practice after
becoming an attending inNigeria, I saw a lot of cases
that were psychiatry related.
And I started thinking in myheart, like looking at all my
(06:42):
past story, I think psychiatryseems to be the best fit uh for
me in terms of practicingmedicine.
Because I call it, I callpsychiatry like the
subspeciality that is closest tobeing a pastor, in court,
because we get to hear people'sproblems a lot.
You know, for someone to comedown with depression almost
(07:02):
always, there's always one lastbig trigger.
Maybe it's a divorce, maybeit's unemployment, maybe it's
you know, financial problems,whatever it is, homelessness,
you know, we get to see thisevery single day.
People having going throughstressors, precipitating either
depression, precipitating eitheranxiety for some people,
(07:24):
precipitating even schizophreniafor some people, although they
all have most of mostly theyhave biologic basis, but at the
same time, they almost alwaysintersect with one stressor
going on in their lives.
So I decided, okay, uh, I'llcome to the US with my PhD, and
after that, I'm going to dopsychiatric residences so I
(07:46):
could use my story the best.
Not that I tell all patients mystory, no, but at least I could
relate with them on a deeperlevel and be able to empathize
and be able to show compassion,even as I care for them every
single day.
So the transition wasrelatively okay.
I got the admission with youknow some scholarship here and
(08:08):
there.
Uh so it was, but it was ofcourse tough.
I came with my wife and tookit.
So we had to adjust to a newculture.
We had to leave a big house inNigeria for a very tiny place in
the US that we could afford.
And, you know, but you know, wekept moving on and moving on
and moving on.
And we are grateful that thingseventually have worked out over
(08:31):
the years.
Yeah.
Ashley Love (08:32):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr.
Babatunde, thank you so muchfor foreshadowing so much of the
amazing things we're going totalk about too.
We are absolutely going to talkabout your book, Adapt in
Advance.
I think it is such a gift topeople.
And um, believe it or not,we're also gonna talk a little
bit about faith in medicine aswell, because that's something
that is so important to you.
And um, and I think that it isuh it's a conversation that
(08:56):
people do shy away from, butit's one that is always
underlying, right?
There's always, it's alwaysright there under the surface,
like you mentioned.
Um, let's step back just asecond and talk about all of
these titles that we've justmentioned, right?
MD, MPH, which is the Mastersof Public Health.
Um, and then of course we needto throw epidemiology in there
as well at some point.
How did you make all of thesedifferent decisions?
(09:16):
And and how where did you findall of these, where did you find
yourself in all of these roles?
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (09:22):
Yeah, so um that's a great question,
Ashley.
Um, in terms of my MD, like Ialready mentioned, you know, I
even when I was a kid, I alreadymade up my mind I was going to
be a doctor, even before theloss of my parents.
And then after the loss of myparents, when a friend of my dad
was like, oh, he really wishedone of his kids was one.
So okay, I'll try my best to bethat kid.
(09:42):
That would be one.
Um, so getting to medicine wasrough and tough at like like
everywhere in the world, youhave to take exams and pass
exams and all of that.
So I had to do that.
I remember one exam I had to doagain for another year before I
could get enough points to getme into medical school.
But it was, you know, it wastough, but it was doable.
(10:03):
So I got in, I was glad.
Uh, but that was thatexperience also prepared me for
medical school.
And, you know, I made up mymind from day one, I'm going to
graduate because not alleverybody who gets into medical
school graduates.
But it was so bad in Nigeriathen that like my school, I'm
sure maybe not more than 50% ofus that started actually
(10:26):
finished.
You know, it was just veryrough.
But I decided I was going tofinish and I was going to finish
well.
Many challenges, difficultexams, but you know, we go
through it.
And um masters in public healthcame along.
It was an opportunity we had todo it because in community
medicine we do a lot of kind ofresearch and we do a lot of
(10:47):
things that are related topublic health.
So that was how masters inpublic health came on.
Then the PhD I already gave youa little bit, was because I
just realized I was presentingat conferences, and I realized
there was a lot of things beingsaid that I just didn't know in
terms of analysis, and I justwanted to be good at whatever I
(11:07):
was doing.
And uh felt uh I wouldn't getthe best if I stayed back in it
to do my PhD in Nigeria.
I just wanted to do it in aplace where there's a lot of
resources and where I can, youknow, have access.
Being here, it's just easy tolearn it, have access to it much
more easily compared to uh whenI was in Nigeria.
So that was what brought me toPhD epidemiology, uh, because it
(11:30):
was closer to so it was closerto masters in public as that was
the closest thing to it.
Uh just continuing from where Istopped in Nigeria.
Uh, so that was what uhepidemiology.
Then after that, we haveresidency in psychiatry, which I
already touched a little bitabout.
I really felt um that burden inmy heart to do a specialty in
(11:54):
the US where I could be veryempathetic and I could really
relate with what people aregoing through.
I haven't lost my mom at seven,lost my dad at 13, uh, and been
through a lot of financialhardship going through school
and all of that.
I it's I I I relate easily withpeople, and I I find it easy to
(12:17):
empathize and be able to, youknow, reach out to them on that
level of it's going to be okay.
Uh it's life can really bedifficult for us at times.
And um, so that brings us tothe PhD, then the residency in
the US in psychiatry.
And I think, yeah, so that'sour but in in all of it, I think
(12:39):
the biggest for me is which Iwould say to everybody listening
is no matter what level you areright now, depending on our
purpose.
So one thing I would say is wehave different purposes and we
have to understand what ourpurpose is.
Does everybody really need togo to school this long?
I don't believe so.
I believe for some people, youknow, for example, you discover
(13:01):
your purpose very early, and youknow my purpose is to be a
businessman, for example, youknow, and you know how to get
there, of course, go ahead.
I'm off there.
But I I always encourage everyyoung people to at least get as
much formal education as theyare able to.
Um, not necessarily a PhD, evenif bachelor's is just what you
(13:24):
believe is unique for what youhave.
I I strongly believe it'simportant for us to get some.
A chapter in my book wasdedicated to formal education.
But I also had a chapter rightnext to it where I talked about
informal education, meaningthere's a lot we can learn
without even going to school atall.
And we look, we don't need, youknow, we just need to look all
(13:46):
around us.
We see a lot of very successfulpeople with not so much of
formal education.
So it's formal education is noteverything, but I believe a
little bit of it, if only ifonly what it trains us is the
discipline of beginning andfinishing something.
You know, I believe it's adiscipline we need in our works
(14:06):
today.
And you know, the process oflearning every day, waking up,
going to classes, you know, itteaches you something that stays
with you forever.
Try hard to get at least abachelor's minimum.
That's my recommendation.
It's not compulsory.
We have a lot of successfulpeople without it, but I would
still recommend it at least forthe discipline that you get from
(14:27):
it.
And then, you know, it helps tojust see life in a different
way, the people you meet alongthe journey and all of that.
Ashley Love (14:34):
No, it's beautiful.
And it exemplifies a reallyimportant equation in medicine,
and that's purpose, which iswhat you've mentioned, plus
discipline, which is also whatyou've mentioned, equals
resiliency.
And I think that is somethingin medicine that we have to
have, especially with you andyour journey.
I mean, unfortunately, yourresiliency started developing
very, very, very young when youwere still a child, basically.
(14:55):
Um, but but without purpose,you know, we we can't, we we
don't have that heart focus.
And without discipline, well,we we haven't overcome
challenges, you know, and youneed both of those to really
develop resiliency, to realizeyou are where you need to be,
doing what you need to do.
And I I love that.
I think that is just that's sobeautiful.
Dr.
Baba Tunde, before we get intoa day in your life as a
(15:17):
psychiatrist, um, would you havedone anything differently?
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (15:20):
Honestly, I don't think so.
Including even the loss of myparents, um, in as much as
tragic as it was.
Maybe time has passed and I'velooked back uh again and again.
I meditate a lot, I thinkthrough things.
Uh I don't think I would havechosen anything different
(15:41):
looking back at everything andwhere I am today.
Of course, I'm not yet where Iwant to be.
There's just still a whole lotof plans in front.
I have 50-year plans at leastfrom where I am, uh, that I
plan, you know, one after theother.
I have a five-year plan.
I have, of course, I plan everyweek, I plan every month, I
plan every year.
And I have many other things Istill want to do and the and how
(16:04):
I want to impact, you know,with my story uh to people.
But looking back, I don't thinkthere's anything I will have
chosen differently.
Um, I the you know, I readbooks a lot, like I read one
book every week beginning fromyear 2000.
And but most of it is audio, sothat makes it easier.
My whole idea about reading,and I encourage people to do
(16:26):
that, is I say at least one bookevery month to every young
person growing up.
A book that can encourage you,that can stimulate you, that can
help you know that you know, nomatter what you're going
through, people have beenthrough this before, not to
minimize your pain.
Uh so I reference that becauseI read a book and I've read a
lot of stories of people fromtime to time, and these stories
(16:49):
always encourage me to know thatpeople have been through very
difficult situations.
Of course, every person isunique, every situation is
unique.
So I don't want to minimizeanybody's pain or to just say
anything is similar to eachother.
No, there's you are differentand the dynamics of your life is
different, but you can learnfrom other people.
(17:10):
I read a lot, I learn fromother people, but I also believe
there's also the place for yourown personal experience that
you know reading might not beable to substitute completely
for that.
So learning is good from otherpeople, but there are some
things you are also meant toexperience or go through as a
person to help you uh goingforward.
Ashley Love (17:33):
The personal experience is something that we
we speak so highly about, Ithink, because we are proud of
our experiences.
But like you mentioned,sometimes those personal
experiences are traumatic orthey're not desired, you know,
like you mentioned, thoseexperiences are what builds
resiliency.
So if you are in the heavy ofone of those moments where you
(17:54):
just don't know which way is up,you don't know which way to
turn for, if you can take a stepback and say, you know, perhaps
this is one of those resiliencybuilding moments.
And if I can just continue toforge through, if I continue to
put one foot in front of theother and build on this
situation, let's use it forgood.
And um, adapt in advance is abook that we've talked about
(18:15):
already.
And this is really your giftand a great place to start for
anybody who might findthemselves in that situation.
And I giggle, adapt in advance.
It makes me think of yourbackground in epidemiology.
There's plenty of things thatare adapting and advancing there
as well.
But tell us a little bit moreabout this book.
Primarily, who is this bookfor?
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (18:37):
Okay.
Yeah, that's very exciting tome, Ashley.
Uh, so I wrote this bookbecause I wanted to put my story
out and let people know nomatter what you are going
through, um you can adapt.
And what that means is you canadjust without losing your mind,
(18:58):
without losing yourself.
And then you can advance,meaning you can go forward
despite the challenges that youare going through.
Honestly, I would say this bookis for everyone, everyone,
because we all go throughchallenges, but most for young
people, uh, people in college,uh, people in high school, just
(19:21):
because it's a vitaldevelopmental moment of our life
where we are trying to developour philosophy of life and
understand how best life shouldplay out for us.
So it's important for us.
I would say the things Ilearned at those stages of my
(19:41):
life were very, very helpful forme.
And that's when I actually Iwas in college when I started
reading one book every week.
And I think that that would bethe best decision of my life if
I'm asked to say one thing thathas been most helpful for me in
my life is reading.
Ashley Love (20:40):
What did it explain how I fill it for others to
find it?
And what does it teach me aboutresilience, empathy, or
purpose?
And then practice telling thatstory with reflection, not
performance.
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review over on
ShadowmeNext.com.
There you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
(21:01):
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (21:04):
Not necessarily school books, of
course.
I have to read school books topass my exams, but learning
about life generally.
Just, you know, so much we canlearn from people that have
succeeded or people that havegone ahead.
And so Adapt and Advance is abook for young people mainly,
but generally for everybody.
In it, I used seven uh section,seven main sections.
(21:29):
I used the map lamp acronym, Mmeaning making.
Uh, I pulled from VictorFranco's book on Man's Search
for Meaning.
It was one of the Holocaustsurvivors, and he said he gave
three main ways to make meaning,which has stayed with me so
much.
I use it, I make meaning of anychallenging situation I passed
(21:50):
through in life very quicklybecause of that book.
He said one is to look at thebig picture or how you can help
people despite the problemyou're having.
So you are not, you whateveryou are going through does not
stop you from still having asmile in the middle of it.
It might be tough, uh, or stillbeing able to help people in
the middle of it.
(22:11):
That means you are looking atthe bigger picture.
That this problem has not cometo destroy me or grind me to a
halt.
Rather, it has come to build meup.
So, which brings us to thesecond thing is your attitude
towards the problem.
So we need to have the rightattitude towards whatever we are
going through.
I'm not saying it's going to beeasy.
It was never easy.
(22:31):
I can smile about talking aboutmy past now, but there were
days I cried.
There were days I locked myselfup in the room.
I'm like, cried.
I'm like, God, why did thishappen to me?
How I wished that you know myparents were here, especially
those times when you see otherpeople, you know, doing very
well, supportive parents, andyou are just there, and you
(22:51):
know, it's just so tough to evenget tuition for school paid,
and you just don't even knowwhat the next day holds.
So, but in the midst ofeverything, our attitude towards
it matters a lot.
And the third one isexperiencing someone or
something, which could beexperiencing nature, it could be
experiencing a loved one.
For me, I experienced musicevery day because one hiding
(23:17):
place for me the most since Ilost my parents was music.
Music was very helpful.
I remember even then I'll picka church hymn book and read.
I remember the songs we sang attheir phone era, it was very
comforting to me at verydifficult periods.
And all of that was very, veryhelpful for experience.
So that's money-making.
Hey, it's action.
Action is action, we don't haveto say a lot about it.
(23:38):
You've just got to put actionbehind your dreams.
Dreams only come to pass whenyou back it up with action.
You know, I have all thosedegrees, I have all this
schooling, but it's been a lotof action, a lot of work.
And now that I'm doneschooling, I'm grateful.
I'm also even still workingvery hard.
Every single day I put in mybest to what I'm doing.
(24:00):
I always tell myself everymorning, part of my confessions
every morning to myself is Iwant to go to my bed at night
empty.
Empty meaning I want to pourout every good thing in me that
I'm that is that is in me to bea blessing to people around me.
My patients, my residents, mystudents, everybody, co-workers.
I want to go to bed empty everynight so that when I die in my
(24:22):
old age, I want to go to mygrave empty.
Everything that is in me, Iwant to pour it out.
So action is what leads tothat, put action behind things.
You just don't dream, putaction behind it.
Wake up every morning and dosomething.
One thing every day towardsyour big dreams in life.
P is planning, you know.
I use the cops model, which isclarify, capture first.
(24:43):
Thoughts come to your mind, youdon't want to lose it.
Capture it, are you stickingout till capture, clarify your
thoughts, um, plan, thenprioritize it, simplify it.
You use that framework, youknow, to keep planning every
day.
And then L is learning.
I've talked about this.
One book a week for me.
I recommend one book a monthfor everybody listening.
Really listen to books thathelps you, that helps encourage
(25:06):
you.
Read biographies of people whoyou want your life to look like
when you grow up.
You know, I do that all thetime.
And then um, A is allianceformation, you know,
relationship, good relationshipwith people, M is mission
statement.
So you've got to have a missionstatement, whatever, no matter
how little it is, if I just sayit's just to be a blessing to
(25:27):
people or to be a good father,good mother, or good spouse,
whatever it is, your missionstatement.
Have something.
I have mine that I say tomyself every single day.
And the last one is peace,prayer or prayer equivalent.
You know, if you are a personof faith, prayer might be easy.
If you're not a person offaith, I believe there are
prayer mental equivalents thatare also equivalent to what
prayer is for everybody.
So that's the structure I usein the book.
(25:50):
And I every chapter I wrote,every chapter I shared my
personal stories, and I sharethe stories of other successful
people that you used toprinciple in that chapter.
So it's a book I recommendstrongly to everybody to read.
Ashley Love (26:03):
It is such a wonderful book.
You know, I'm gonna I'm gonnaquickly rattle off those things
that you just elaborated on.
Look at the big picture, have agood attitude, experience
something, putting action behindyour dreams.
I love that.
That is a great takeaway.
Planning, learning, alliance.
That means being inrelationships, um, having a
mission statement that goes backto our purpose, right?
(26:23):
And then prayer.
And that is just a perfecttakeaway for us to wrap up with.
And that is prayer and faith,um, whatever that might look
like for you.
Dr.
Papatunde, what would you sayto somebody who says that faith
and medicine are not symbiotic,that they don't belong together?
Speaker (26:44):
I I would say, you know, for me, I see that they
belong together because one wayor the other, everything I do,
uh, you know, they come from thesame source for me.
And I strongly believe they mixtogether one way or the other.
Um, faith, you know, even in,for example, in psychiatry,
(27:04):
there's a lot of research, forexample, that shows that people
who are of faith tend to dobetter with certain disorders
because their faith tends tohelp them, you know, be more
resilient uh um during it.
And even, for example, thingslike addiction, you know, uh,
for example, AA that people goto, one of the reasons are
(27:24):
called anonymous is successful,is because they believe in a
higher power.
They use higher power, ofcourse, not necessarily a
particular faith, whatever youbelieve in.
At times we just want to holdon to something higher than us,
and um, I believe that'ssomething that helps.
So I believe they mix together,and most of what I do, of
course, I don't mention my faiththat will work like that to
(27:45):
patients.
Um, you know, but I most of myvalues from my faith, I leave it
out every day and in myday-to-day interactions with
people.
The biggest, for example, forthe Christian faith is to the
two big laws is to love God,love others.
So I believe the world would bea good place if we all uh love
others, at least, you know, thesecond one.
(28:07):
Uh it's good if we do thingsout of love and out of a mission
in that I want to be a blessingto other people.
So I believe they mix togetheruh one way or the other because
it could serve as thefoundation.
People want to talk toproviders that are real, that
are genuine, and that are ableto empathize with them, not just
(28:30):
doing it for the sake of themoney.
Of course, the money is a goodpart of it, but I want every
patient that leaves me toremember me for something.
I always leave them with one,for example.
I always tell them, you know,um, to always be the best
version of yourself whenever I'mdischarging a patient.
I always tell them, I want youto remind me for this one thing.
So I want them to, I want toleave a good taste in their
(28:52):
mouth.
Not that I just treated themand gave them medications alone,
but I want them to go and knowthat someone truly cares about
them.
Dr. Oluwole Babatunde (29:03):
That's beautiful.
That's amazing.
Dr.
Baba Tounde, his book is Adaptand Advance, a faith-based
step-by-step guide to turningtrials into triumphs, it's
available on Amazon.
I'll link it in the show notesbelow.
Thank you so much for takingthe time today for describing
your journey and uh for justbeing such an incredible human.
Thank you.
Thank you, actually.
(29:24):
I'm deeply grateful.
Thanks for having me.
Ashley Love (29:26):
Thank you so very much for listening to this
episode of Shadow Me Networks.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday.
As always, if you have anyquestions, let me know on
Facebook or Instagram.
Access you want or stories youneed.
You're always invited to ShadowMe Networks.
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