March 23, 2026 • 29 mins
Not knowing is not the problem. Hiding it is.
Jordan Kessler works as a critical care PA in a neuro ICU, where the alarms are loud, the decisions are fast, and uncertainty is constant. We talk about the skill nobody grades you on in PA school or pre-med tracks: how to communicate clearly when you are not sure yet. That single habit shapes patient safety, team trust, and how quickly you grow from “new grad” to steady clinician.
We also take a look at the real ICU ecosystem, including the clinicians people forget to mention, and how Jordan’s early career in trauma shifted into intensive care during COVID. From pressors and procedures to three-hour rounds, we break down what an ICU day actually looks like and why the best teams rely on repeatable frameworks like a strong one-liner and SBAR style communication. Jordan shares why mentorship can be excellent in critical care and still feel inconsistent day to day, plus how she is building practical tools through ICU Clinician’s Compass to close the gap between knowing the medicine and fitting into ICU culture with confidence.
If you are a pre-health student, PA student, or new clinician considering critical care, we also talk through what post-graduate critical care fellowships typically include and who they can help most. Listen, share this with a friend who is stepping into a new clinical role, and then subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what do you say when you do not know yet?
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Virtual shadowing is an important tool to use when planning your medical career. Whether as a doctor, a physician assistant, a therapist or nurse, here Shadow Me Next! we want to provide you with the resources you need to find your role in healthcare and understand your place in medicine.
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Ashley Love (00:01):
What if the thing holding you back in medicine
isn't what you don't know, buthow you show up when you don't
know?
Today I'm talking with JordanKessler, a critical care PA
working in the ICU wheredecisions happen fast and
uncertainty is constant.
If you're a pre-health student,you've probably been told to
focus on your grades, yourhours, your resume.
(00:22):
And you're doing all of that,but it still feels like you're
not fully prepared.
Because no one is teaching youhow to think, communicate, and
exist in high-stakes clinicalspaces.
And if you don't learn thatearly, it follows you.
In this episode, we start tounpack what actually separates
confident clinicians fromoverwhelmed ones.
(00:43):
And it's probably not what youthink.
Welcome to Shadow Me Next, apodcast where I take you into
and behind the scenes of themedical world to provide you
with a deeper understanding ofthe human side of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor, and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
I invite you to join me as wetake a conversational and
(01:06):
personal look into the lives andminds of leaders in medicine.
This is Shadow Me Next withJordan Kessler.
Jordan, thank you so much forjoining us on Shadow Me Next
today.
You work in critical care, andI honestly think that you guys
are just the coolest parts ofmedicine.
The amount of things that youmanage on a day-to-day would
(01:28):
blow anybody's mind.
So I cannot wait to dive intothat with you.
Awesome.
Yeah, thanks so much for havingme.
Can't wait to talk about itwith everybody.
I'd love to start when you um,let's go back a little bit.
When you were on your pre-med,pre-PA, pre what do I want to be
journey?
How did you decide for surethat you wanted to go to PA
(01:49):
school?
Jordan Kestler (01:50):
So my journey to PA school might not be quite
the same as everybody else'sbecause I was pretty set on PA
from the start.
Right.
I didn't have a lot of uh, do Iwant to go to PA school?
Do I want to go to med school?
Do I want to go nursing?
Um, I had exposure to uh PAwhen I was pretty young.
I broke my leg, I had a PA totake care of me, my ortho PA,
(02:14):
and I was like, this is so cool.
That's what I want to do.
And so I kind of had a littlebit of a one-track mind after
that.
Of course, you know, I did myshadowing, I went and uh did
pediatric plastic surgery forshadowing, which was super cool.
Um and so once I did some ofthat, I was like, okay, I'm
(02:36):
sold.
You know, I love that PA schoolgives me the opportunity to
continue to grow, evolvethroughout my whole career, you
know, not just in your career,but with your life.
Um so, you know, once I decidedthat, it kind of was like even
as I was going into college, I'mlike, these are the
prerequisites I need to line upto get into PA school.
(02:58):
And that was pretty much myfocus always.
Ashley Love (03:02):
It's nice that you didn't have to take a bunch of
shifts and a bunch ofroundabouts because I think that
is a lot of people's stories,right?
Um, but there are so manypeople, especially nowadays, who
know about the PA professionand have been treated by a
physician assistant and theythink this is exactly what I
want to do.
And and very similar to you,they have everything mapped out
very, very well.
Jordan, tell me, was thereanything looking back, and
(03:24):
you've been a practicing PA forsix years now?
Yep.
Amazing.
Is there anything looking backbefore PA school that you would
have done differently, or maybeyou wish you had done also?
Jordan Kestler (03:39):
I do think, you know, looking into it, people
should explore otheropportunities.
I say that to my mentees now.
You know, I'm like, you want toknow why you want to be a PA
versus one of these otherthings.
There are so many differentoptions.
They're all part of the bigteam, they all have important
roles.
They all have a little bit of adifferent role.
(03:59):
You know, you want to make surethat what you're getting into
is going to work for you longterm.
So typically, I know I'd notrecommend just having a
one-track mind.
I think you should kind ofexpand a little bit.
Uh, if nothing else, to be ableto explain in your PA school
interviews, this is why I wantthis specifically, because it is
so common to look at all of thedifferent, you know, available
(04:21):
options in healthcare.
Ashley Love (04:23):
Thank you so much for saying that because I feel
the exact same way.
I very much knew I wanted to bea PA, went to PA school, got
here, and was just blown away bythe amount of healthcare
professionals working inmedicine and what they do and
their different roles.
And then, of course, fastforward 10 years and on this
podcast, I'm still learning somuch every single day.
(04:45):
And it is just, it's sowonderful.
But I hear you, pre-healthstudent, who's screaming at us
through their computer orthrough their headphones saying,
y'all, I can't find shadowinghours.
I can't find shadowingopportunities.
It is so hard for clinicians totake me on.
Number one, I can't even get intouch with them.
Um, and we hear you.
And that's exactly why we haveestablished Shadow Me Next and
(05:08):
other platforms like this, sothat you can at least get an
idea.
Do I understand where they'recoming from?
Do I want to do what they'redoing?
Do I like the way they thinkabout problems?
You know, it's it's such aunique look into medicine.
Um, and it doesn't replaceshadowing.
I'm sure you would agree withthat.
In-person shadowing is thethings you get to see, the way
(05:31):
the clinician interacts with thepatients, those things are
irreplaceable.
But platforms like Shadow MeNext at least give you a taste,
right?
And um, and I just a taste candefinitely shift the trajectory.
I mean, do you guys work withspeech language pathologists and
critical care?
Because oh my gosh, I thinkspeech language pathologists are
also so stinking cool.
Jordan Kestler (05:53):
We do.
Uh I'm in a neuro ICU, so oh,for sure then.
Patients are TBI patients.
Ashley Love (06:00):
Pretty much everybody gets to see speech.
Amazing.
So before we dive into a day inyour life, I would love to talk
about the team actually.
Let's talk about this.
Let's talk about the differentmembers of healthcare that you
work with.
And obviously, we know we knowthe primary ones.
I'm sure there are MDs and DOson your floor.
What are other people thatyou're interacting, interacting
with on a daily basis?
(06:21):
And maybe mention some of thepeople that we might not
initially be thinking about.
Jordan Kestler (06:26):
There are so many team members, and this is
like a revolving door of peoplecoming through the ICU.
And so, you know, the mainteam, of course, that I work
with and you get to spend a lotof time with is going to be my
attending physician, uh theother critical care PAs, NPs,
the nurses.
Most of us are on the unitpretty much all the time.
(06:47):
But you have tons of people,you know, cycling in and out.
You have, you know,neurosurgery PAs, you have all
the therapies, physical therapy,occupational therapy, speech
therapy.
You have people coming up anddown from the OR, our patient
transporters are so importantfor getting all of our patients
(07:09):
to their scans.
You know, our texts, if we'relucky enough to have one on the
unit with us, are so helpful ingetting those things done.
We have unit clerks who arehelping to coordinate visitors
coming in and out of the unit,taking phone calls, directing
them to wherever they need togo.
Um, and so that even what Ijust listed is a small number of
(07:31):
people who are makingeverything work in the ICU.
And there's just constantlypeople coming in and out, and
all of them are important togetting things done for the
patients.
Ashley Love (07:43):
Yeah, I'd imagine.
When you first graduated PAschool, did you go directly into
ICU critical care medicine?
I did not.
So tell us about that.
Jordan Kestler (07:54):
I uh I had done a neurosurgery and trauma
rotation as my last rotation ofPA school, and I loved it.
It was near home where I wantedto be.
Um, and they were actuallycreating a new trauma PA role as
I was graduating.
Wow.
So I was able to interview forthat and step into that role as
soon as I graduated, which wasreally cool.
(08:15):
It was like a continuation withall the same people.
I knew the environment, I kindof knew how things worked.
So being able to build on thatwas so cool.
Um, but I started my career inNovember of 2019.
So bad timing shortly afterthat, COVID started.
Um, for some of my training fortrauma surgery, I'd gone and
(08:38):
spent a couple of weeks in theICU.
Uh, you know, trauma patientsgo to the ICU.
There are procedures that needto be done in the trauma base.
So I went and did a little bitof training with them.
Not even a month later, youknow, the hospital starts
talking about redeployingpeople.
You know, we need more peoplewho are going to be working in
the ICU, we need more people whoare gonna be, you know, working
(09:00):
in the ER.
And I had just been in the ICU,so it was natural for me to go
up there.
I knew everybody already.
So I moved up to the ICU.
Um, I was sort of there fulltime for, I guess, probably six
to nine months.
Um, and then I was bouncingback and forth between trauma
(09:21):
and ICU.
Probably for like the next yearat one point, I didn't end up
making the switch primarily tocritical care because I just
loved the team environment andconstantly being around
everybody.
Um yeah, so COVID reallyactually changed the trajectory
of my career, I would say, in apretty positive way.
Ashley Love (09:42):
How overwhelmed were you?
Because I know PA school and Iknow that I was so prepared
coming out of PA school.
And I also had an ICU rotationlast night.
I just remember being on theICU going, This is a this is the
wild, wild west, man.
I mean, did you have momentswhen you first started where you
yes, where you felt veryprepared, but also did you have
(10:04):
moments where you thought, I amin way over my head?
Oh, for sure.
Jordan Kestler (10:10):
I didn't even I didn't even do an ICU rotation
in school.
I had just had that coupleweeks there, you know, a month
before.
But I was really lucky.
It was a small group.
I was in more of a communityhospital.
I had a lot of reallyexperienced physicians there
with me, a lot of reallyexperienced ICU nurses.
(10:32):
And so I had a lot of support.
Um, you know, they are reallywhat made me want to work in
critical care.
They helped me so much.
Uh, you know, that being said,of course, there are still
overwhelming pieces.
You know, I'm talking aboutpressers, and I'm like, I've
never heard of norepinephrinebefore.
(10:52):
I don't know how you know thedosing works for that.
I don't know how to talk aboutthese things, you know, all of
that, there's always going to besome degree of being
overwhelmed, especially in theICU, because we just don't cover
or really even touch on a lotof the things that you're going
(11:13):
to do there.
And it makes sense because wecover so much in PA school
anyway, but there's a biglearning curve on the job.
Ashley Love (11:22):
There's a couple of ways that I want to go with
this.
And um, I think the firstdirection I want to take is
going to be talking aboutmentorship.
And then the second direction Iwant to take is going to be
talking about continuingeducation.
So starting with mentorship,something that has come up
really, really frequently,especially in my conversations
(11:45):
with PAs, um, and actually withMDs as well and DOs is the fact
that as PAs, we're expected tohave a fantastic team
surrounding us, especiallystraight out of school.
Like you just said, you didn'thave an ICU rotation.
You had you had very littletraining comparatively on ICU,
and yet you're expected to gointo the ICU.
(12:07):
The reason we can do that isbecause we are trained as a
generalist, but then we alsohave mentorship from from our
MDs, our DOs, um, our our leadPAs, lead MPs there on the
floor.
Has critical care preservedthat mentorship?
Because I think there are areasof medicine where a PA shows up
day one and there is nosupervising anything, and you
(12:29):
are just meant to float andfigure it out.
Has the ICU really been able tomaintain that mentorship,
especially for new PA grads?
Jordan Kestler (12:38):
I would say yes and no.
Um I think protocol careprobably does a better job than
a lot of other specialties, Iwould imagine.
Um, you know, there's lots offellowships out there now.
In my hospital, we have threeto four months of orientation
that you're paired up with areally experienced PA or NP.
(13:00):
So the structure is there.
I think where it getschallenging is that there are so
many things to do now.
There are so many moving piecesthat even with the structure in
place to have that mentorship,I think it's challenging.
Schedules are rotating.
You may be with somebodydifferent.
(13:20):
People, you know, do thingsdifferently from their
colleagues sometimes.
And, you know, somebody tellingyou this is the way to do it
today, you might do it that waytomorrow, and you're with
somebody else.
And they're like, oh no, thisis the way I do it.
Uh flavor, flavor of the day.
Yeah, there's lots of meetingsto go to, there's lots of
administrative tasks that wehave now.
(13:41):
So I think the structure staysin place for critical care, but
having the direct attention andbeing able to give your focus
specifically to your orienteecan be challenging.
And I think that mentorship hasmaybe eroded a little bit in
(14:02):
that way.
Um, just because we're notalways able to give the
attention and support that Ithink that new practitioners or
even people who are just new tothe ICU really need.
Ashley Love (14:14):
Which is an accidental and perfect segue
into mentioning something thatyou have created after seeing
this gap.
Describe it for us a littlebit, and then we'll go into what
you mentioned, which isfellowship, continue education,
like we talked about.
So interesting.
Jordan Kestler (14:31):
Yeah, for sure.
So, as I mentioned before, youknow, walking into the ICU is a
new PA, new NP, resident, reallyany sort of provider.
There's so much medicine thatyou haven't covered in school
that so much of the focus is onlearning that medicine, and
(14:53):
rightfully so.
You know, that needs to besomething that we all know to be
able to function in the ICU.
But I think that there's a gapbetween learning the medicine,
being able to functiontheoretically, you know, from a
practicing perspective, and therealities of the culture
communicating in the ICU, how tofit in in the ICU and how to do
(15:15):
it confidently.
So I'm starting to create someresources essentially to address
a little bit of that gap.
It's hard when you walk intothe ICU and you already are
feeling insecure about notknowing so much of the medicine,
to then not know how tocommunicate that, to not know
how to say, I don't know, youknow, without feeling
(15:40):
embarrassed or insecure.
These are things that I thinkthat we can improve
significantly, not just to helpthe team around you, but to
help, you know, the clinicianthemselves uh to identify some
of those areas that they need tolearn more and be able to say,
(16:02):
this is what I know, this iswhat I can tell you so far, this
is where I'm getting stuck.
Ashley Love (16:08):
And this is a great time to pause for quality
questions.
This is a segment on the showwhere we talk about potential
interview questions that youmight hear on your own
pre-health interview.
So, what Jordan Kessler istalking about here is one of the
most important questions thatyou could be asked.
Tell me about a time when youdid not know the answer in a
(16:30):
high stakes or professionalsetting.
How did you communicate thatuncertainty?
And what did you learn aboutyourself in that moment?
Medicine is full ofuncertainty.
You are not expected to knoweverything, but you are expected
to recognize when you don'tknow, communicate it clearly,
(16:50):
and keep moving forward safely.
Students who struggle are oftenthe ones who feel like they
need to hide that uncertainty.
Strong clinicians do theopposite.
They name it, they frame it,and they keep thinking.
If you can show that in youranswer, you're showing your
interviewer how you will show upin real patient care.
(17:13):
And it doesn't just stop atquality questions.
There are more resources foryou as a prehealth student on
ShadowMenext.com to include ournewly released application
readiness course.
So head on over tocourses.shadowmext.com and check
it out.
Jordan Kestler (17:30):
Um, you know, so being able to communicate when
you don't know, being able tojust communicate in ways that
share language with everybodyelse in the ICU who has been
there for a long time.
You know, we all learn aboutS-BAR and whatnot.
What does that actually consistof?
You know, and learning tocommunicate confidently in that
(17:52):
same language helps to reducethe burden for the clinician
themselves and everybody elsearound them.
So if we're not having to spenda lot of time sifting through
what are you actually gettingat, what are you trying to say
here, it gives us the ability tofocus in on what we really need
without spending too much timetrying to even get to that
(18:15):
point.
Ashley Love (18:16):
It's incredible.
It's such a great idea and itseems so obvious.
And yet, like you mentioned, alot of times we dive so fast
into medicine and norepi andpressers and all of that
craziness that we we kind ofjust assume that you're gonna
get all the other stuff, and youwill.
You did, you do, but it's umit's a journey for a painful
(18:37):
journey.
Jordan Kestler (18:38):
Yeah, there's comfort and you know, stepping
into rounds for the first fewmonths, and there's tons of
people around and they'relistening to you talk, and
you're like stumbling over yourwords, saying, I don't really
know how to do this.
I watched somebody do ityesterday, so I'll try and piece
it together today, but it'suncomfortable.
And I think that you know wecan eliminate some of that
(18:59):
discomfort.
Ashley Love (19:00):
Absolutely.
I will link your site in theshow notes below for the ICU
Clinician's Compass, and you canget the ICU one-liner
blueprint, is available rightnow.
But Jordan, definitely keep usupdated as you continue to
release this absolutelyincredible resource.
And you know, I would reallyencourage students to check this
out.
Even if you don't know if ICUis for you, check out what
(19:22):
Jordan has created because youknow it's gonna give you a
really intimate look at her lifein ICU medicine right now and
critical care medicine.
So it's for everybody.
Um, it I honestly I'm gonnatake a look at it just to relive
the past and um maybe uh softensome of the PTSD I have from
being on the ICU.
Um, so this is a greatintroduction to you know ICU
(19:46):
medicine and critical care.
Tell us about the fellowshipsthat exist.
So um these would be post PAschool fellowships for people
who are interested in criticalcare medicine.
Jordan Kestler (20:00):
Yeah.
And so there are a lot more ofthem out there now.
I know my hospital hasdeveloped one over the last
couple of years, and it looksdifferent slightly in different
places.
Um, but my exposure to the oneat my hospital, it's one year
long, which I think is prettytypical of all of the critical
care fellowships.
And it's essentially anextension of your rotations with
(20:26):
more responsibility and a lotof again, that mentorship and
oversight.
Um, and so you know, ourfellows get to spend extended
periods of time on one singleunit to really learn the
medicine specific to the neuroICU, and then learn the medicine
specific to the cardiovascularICU, learn the medicine specific
(20:47):
to the trauma ICU.
Uh, and they get to rotatearound and get all of that
support.
They try to stick with the samepreceptors as often as they
can, and then they add inacademic uh lectures on top of
that.
So I think that's helpful tooto you know have that
supplemental reinforcement inaddition to practicing from day
(21:11):
to day.
You still get some of that moreformal instruction.
Um so far, it seems likeeverybody has enjoyed the
experience of doing thefellowship.
You work more hours than youmay work going straight into
practice.
But I think in something likecritical care, that's helpful.
Um, you know, if you go dayswithout seeing something, you
(21:35):
start to lose some of it alittle bit.
So having that reinforcement,seeing the same patients day
after day, uh, I think canreally help people to feel more
comfortable with the medicine inthe ICU.
Ashley Love (21:47):
Thanks for describing that.
Because for for so long, Iexpected these fellowships to
just be something that you wouldalready be doing anyway, right?
I mean, you're already showingup to work anyway, but you
really highlighted some of thedifferences between just, you
know, walking into the ICU andWorking as a PA versus accepting
one of these fellowships.
And it really is more intensivetraining so that you can be a
(22:08):
more confident clinician alittle bit faster.
Um Jordan, tell us about a dayon your life in the ICU.
So what kind of procedures areyou doing?
Are you doing procedures allday long?
Um are you sitting at acomputer charting all day long?
What does your life look like?
Yeah.
Jordan Kestler (22:27):
So I'll preface this by saying in I've worked in
the ICU in two differenthospitals, and it may look a
little different from place toplace.
It sort of depends.
Are you in a big academiccenter or are you in a smaller
community hospital?
I'm in a bigger hospital rightnow.
And so the typical day, you'regonna get there just before 7
(22:49):
a.m.
You'll get if it's a day shift,you'll get sign out from the
night shift, get sort of thatone-liner that I was telling you
about on every patient to giveyou an overview of why they're
here, what's going on, bringingkind of up to speed on where the
patient is right now, any sortof overnight events, anything to
pay attention to throughout theday.
(23:11):
Um you'll get that on the wholeunit.
And then there are multipleproviders, so you kind of split
up who's gonna have whichpatients for the day.
You'll do all of your chartreview, looking through vitals,
uh, looking at lab results,looking at any imaging, notes
from yesterday.
Um, you of course then will gosee your patients because none
(23:33):
of it means anything if youdon't put it into context by
seeing the patient.
Uh, and then by 9 a.m., we'llusually start our rounds with
the ICU team.
And so that's gonna be, youknow, all of the APPs, the
physician, the nurses, we'regonna go around from room to
room and talk more in depthabout each patient.
(23:55):
Our units are like 10 to 14patients, usually takes about
three to four hours to round.
Oh my goodness.
Yep.
So after you finish that, thenyou're going to start actually
doing all the things you talkedabout on rounds.
So, you know, callingconsultants, following up on
(24:15):
their recommendations, writingyour notes, following up on
whatever labs you've beentrending throughout the day,
because in the ICU you probablyare trending labs on people.
So you're gonna have more labsto look at and address
throughout the day.
Uh, if you have any proceduresto do, you're gonna be doing
those procedures.
Because I'm in a biggeracademic hospital, uh, we
(24:36):
actually continue to haveacademic lectures for CME sort
of built in throughout the week.
So you'll probably go to ameeting like that.
Uh, we'll do neuroradiologyrounds where the radiologist
will review some of the imagingof our patients so you can learn
more about that.
You're gonna be talking tofamilies, uh, writing your notes
(24:57):
if I didn't say that already.
We have a little sign outsystem that you're gonna be
updating also to make sure thatyou know the night shift can
take a look at what's been goingon, what you've done throughout
the day.
Um and so that's usually gonnabe the core of your day.
We're in the ICU, so it doesn'talways look like that.
(25:17):
Of course not.
You know, you may get theadmission that rolls in at 7, 10
a.m.
Who is on two pressers anddoesn't have any lines and is
not yet intubated.
And so that'll throw off yourwhole day.
You know, you need to obviouslyaddress the critical
life-threatening things firstimmediately, uh, and then build
(25:37):
the rest in kind of around that.
But typically it's you know, alot of the same things that
anybody inpatient would be doingum procedures kind of ebb and
flow.
Uh I'll do a lot of centrallines, arterial lines, but I may
not even be doing one of thoseevery shift.
Just all depends on you knowwhat the patient needs.
(26:01):
We, of course, don't want to bedoing things if they don't
truly need them.
So the those sort of are notnecessarily as consistent as all
of these other things thatwe're doing throughout the day.
Ashley Love (26:14):
When I think about the ICU, I think of a really
high adrenaline, a reallyconstant high adrenaline
environment.
And from what it sounds like,it seems very rhythmic in the
ICU.
And it seems like your day'skind of time blocked out, right?
And it's just such aninteresting difference between
(26:36):
like clinic work, for example,where it's a new patient every
20 minutes, you kind of resetevery 20 minutes, where really
it's your whole day, is it'sjust one day kind of macro view.
And then what you're doingthroughout that day is kind of
time blocked.
I it's a really interestingpattern.
Have you found that it is likesuper high adrenaline, crazy
crazy all the time?
(26:57):
Or are there moments of calm,or is it more calm?
Jordan Kestler (27:02):
I think it can be an overstimulating
environment.
There's any alarms going off,like I, you know, we talked
about earlier, people walking inand out of the unit.
I think grounding it in some ofthat time blocking, uh, some of
those frameworks, or what helpyou survive that and make sure
that you know things are goingas they need to.
(27:24):
So when that patient comesrolling in at 7:30 and you need
to do all of these things, youknow, well, this is where I was
in my day, and this is what Inormally do.
So I haven't forgotten whatelse needs to be done because I
just have this structure of I doX, Y, and Z.
Uh, and it helps you stay ontrack.
(27:45):
So I think the calmness comesfrom building these structures
into our day.
Personally, I feel that I canhandle the chaos more when I'm
working from you know, a goodbaseline of I know that this is,
you know, what we normally do.
(28:05):
So when you throw in acurveball, it's okay.
Because my whole day is notgoing to be chaos.
I can build it in.
Ashley Love (28:14):
That makes a lot of sense.
Jordan, absolutely, like Isaid, you I critical care PAs,
MDs, DOs, NPs, you guys arereally just so cool.
And um, we're so appreciativeof what you do.
And you usually are seeingpeople at their absolute worst
and hoping to never see themagain.
So um, thank you.
Thank you for the job you do.
(28:35):
Thank you for sharing it withus today, and thank you for
creating this ICU one-linerblueprint.
Again, I'll link it in the shownotes below.
Definitely check it out, guys,um, and see if the ICU life
might be for you.
Jordan, thank you so much.
Thank you so very much forlistening to this episode of
Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
(28:56):
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday.
As always, if you have anyquestions, let me know on
Facebook or Instagram.
Access you want, stories youneed, you're always invited to
Shadow Me Next.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only, and
(29:17):
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests,and do not necessarily reflect
the official policy or positionof any other agency,
organization, employer, orcompany.
What if the thing holding you back in medicine
isn't what you don't know, buthow you show up when you don't
know?
Today I'm talking with JordanKessler, a critical care PA
working in the ICU wheredecisions happen fast and
uncertainty is constant.
If you're a pre-health student,you've probably been told to
focus on your grades, yourhours, your resume.
(00:22):
And you're doing all of that,but it still feels like you're
not fully prepared.
Because no one is teaching youhow to think, communicate, and
exist in high-stakes clinicalspaces.
And if you don't learn thatearly, it follows you.
In this episode, we start tounpack what actually separates
confident clinicians fromoverwhelmed ones.
(00:43):
And it's probably not what youthink.
Welcome to Shadow Me Next, apodcast where I take you into
and behind the scenes of themedical world to provide you
with a deeper understanding ofthe human side of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor, and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
I invite you to join me as wetake a conversational and
(01:06):
personal look into the lives andminds of leaders in medicine.
This is Shadow Me Next withJordan Kessler.
Jordan, thank you so much forjoining us on Shadow Me Next
today.
You work in critical care, andI honestly think that you guys
are just the coolest parts ofmedicine.
The amount of things that youmanage on a day-to-day would
(01:28):
blow anybody's mind.
So I cannot wait to dive intothat with you.
Awesome.
Yeah, thanks so much for havingme.
Can't wait to talk about itwith everybody.
I'd love to start when you um,let's go back a little bit.
When you were on your pre-med,pre-PA, pre what do I want to be
journey?
How did you decide for surethat you wanted to go to PA
(01:49):
school?
Jordan Kestler (01:50):
So my journey to PA school might not be quite
the same as everybody else'sbecause I was pretty set on PA
from the start.
Right.
I didn't have a lot of uh, do Iwant to go to PA school?
Do I want to go to med school?
Do I want to go nursing?
Um, I had exposure to uh PAwhen I was pretty young.
I broke my leg, I had a PA totake care of me, my ortho PA,
(02:14):
and I was like, this is so cool.
That's what I want to do.
And so I kind of had a littlebit of a one-track mind after
that.
Of course, you know, I did myshadowing, I went and uh did
pediatric plastic surgery forshadowing, which was super cool.
Um and so once I did some ofthat, I was like, okay, I'm
(02:36):
sold.
You know, I love that PA schoolgives me the opportunity to
continue to grow, evolvethroughout my whole career, you
know, not just in your career,but with your life.
Um so, you know, once I decidedthat, it kind of was like even
as I was going into college, I'mlike, these are the
prerequisites I need to line upto get into PA school.
(02:58):
And that was pretty much myfocus always.
Ashley Love (03:02):
It's nice that you didn't have to take a bunch of
shifts and a bunch ofroundabouts because I think that
is a lot of people's stories,right?
Um, but there are so manypeople, especially nowadays, who
know about the PA professionand have been treated by a
physician assistant and theythink this is exactly what I
want to do.
And and very similar to you,they have everything mapped out
very, very well.
Jordan, tell me, was thereanything looking back, and
(03:24):
you've been a practicing PA forsix years now?
Yep.
Amazing.
Is there anything looking backbefore PA school that you would
have done differently, or maybeyou wish you had done also?
Jordan Kestler (03:39):
I do think, you know, looking into it, people
should explore otheropportunities.
I say that to my mentees now.
You know, I'm like, you want toknow why you want to be a PA
versus one of these otherthings.
There are so many differentoptions.
They're all part of the bigteam, they all have important
roles.
They all have a little bit of adifferent role.
(03:59):
You know, you want to make surethat what you're getting into
is going to work for you longterm.
So typically, I know I'd notrecommend just having a
one-track mind.
I think you should kind ofexpand a little bit.
Uh, if nothing else, to be ableto explain in your PA school
interviews, this is why I wantthis specifically, because it is
so common to look at all of thedifferent, you know, available
(04:21):
options in healthcare.
Ashley Love (04:23):
Thank you so much for saying that because I feel
the exact same way.
I very much knew I wanted to bea PA, went to PA school, got
here, and was just blown away bythe amount of healthcare
professionals working inmedicine and what they do and
their different roles.
And then, of course, fastforward 10 years and on this
podcast, I'm still learning somuch every single day.
(04:45):
And it is just, it's sowonderful.
But I hear you, pre-healthstudent, who's screaming at us
through their computer orthrough their headphones saying,
y'all, I can't find shadowinghours.
I can't find shadowingopportunities.
It is so hard for clinicians totake me on.
Number one, I can't even get intouch with them.
Um, and we hear you.
And that's exactly why we haveestablished Shadow Me Next and
(05:08):
other platforms like this, sothat you can at least get an
idea.
Do I understand where they'recoming from?
Do I want to do what they'redoing?
Do I like the way they thinkabout problems?
You know, it's it's such aunique look into medicine.
Um, and it doesn't replaceshadowing.
I'm sure you would agree withthat.
In-person shadowing is thethings you get to see, the way
(05:31):
the clinician interacts with thepatients, those things are
irreplaceable.
But platforms like Shadow MeNext at least give you a taste,
right?
And um, and I just a taste candefinitely shift the trajectory.
I mean, do you guys work withspeech language pathologists and
critical care?
Because oh my gosh, I thinkspeech language pathologists are
also so stinking cool.
Jordan Kestler (05:53):
We do.
Uh I'm in a neuro ICU, so oh,for sure then.
Patients are TBI patients.
Ashley Love (06:00):
Pretty much everybody gets to see speech.
Amazing.
So before we dive into a day inyour life, I would love to talk
about the team actually.
Let's talk about this.
Let's talk about the differentmembers of healthcare that you
work with.
And obviously, we know we knowthe primary ones.
I'm sure there are MDs and DOson your floor.
What are other people thatyou're interacting, interacting
with on a daily basis?
(06:21):
And maybe mention some of thepeople that we might not
initially be thinking about.
Jordan Kestler (06:26):
There are so many team members, and this is
like a revolving door of peoplecoming through the ICU.
And so, you know, the mainteam, of course, that I work
with and you get to spend a lotof time with is going to be my
attending physician, uh theother critical care PAs, NPs,
the nurses.
Most of us are on the unitpretty much all the time.
(06:47):
But you have tons of people,you know, cycling in and out.
You have, you know,neurosurgery PAs, you have all
the therapies, physical therapy,occupational therapy, speech
therapy.
You have people coming up anddown from the OR, our patient
transporters are so importantfor getting all of our patients
(07:09):
to their scans.
You know, our texts, if we'relucky enough to have one on the
unit with us, are so helpful ingetting those things done.
We have unit clerks who arehelping to coordinate visitors
coming in and out of the unit,taking phone calls, directing
them to wherever they need togo.
Um, and so that even what Ijust listed is a small number of
(07:31):
people who are makingeverything work in the ICU.
And there's just constantlypeople coming in and out, and
all of them are important togetting things done for the
patients.
Ashley Love (07:43):
Yeah, I'd imagine.
When you first graduated PAschool, did you go directly into
ICU critical care medicine?
I did not.
So tell us about that.
Jordan Kestler (07:54):
I uh I had done a neurosurgery and trauma
rotation as my last rotation ofPA school, and I loved it.
It was near home where I wantedto be.
Um, and they were actuallycreating a new trauma PA role as
I was graduating.
Wow.
So I was able to interview forthat and step into that role as
soon as I graduated, which wasreally cool.
(08:15):
It was like a continuation withall the same people.
I knew the environment, I kindof knew how things worked.
So being able to build on thatwas so cool.
Um, but I started my career inNovember of 2019.
So bad timing shortly afterthat, COVID started.
Um, for some of my training fortrauma surgery, I'd gone and
(08:38):
spent a couple of weeks in theICU.
Uh, you know, trauma patientsgo to the ICU.
There are procedures that needto be done in the trauma base.
So I went and did a little bitof training with them.
Not even a month later, youknow, the hospital starts
talking about redeployingpeople.
You know, we need more peoplewho are going to be working in
the ICU, we need more people whoare gonna be, you know, working
(09:00):
in the ER.
And I had just been in the ICU,so it was natural for me to go
up there.
I knew everybody already.
So I moved up to the ICU.
Um, I was sort of there fulltime for, I guess, probably six
to nine months.
Um, and then I was bouncingback and forth between trauma
(09:21):
and ICU.
Probably for like the next yearat one point, I didn't end up
making the switch primarily tocritical care because I just
loved the team environment andconstantly being around
everybody.
Um yeah, so COVID reallyactually changed the trajectory
of my career, I would say, in apretty positive way.
Ashley Love (09:42):
How overwhelmed were you?
Because I know PA school and Iknow that I was so prepared
coming out of PA school.
And I also had an ICU rotationlast night.
I just remember being on theICU going, This is a this is the
wild, wild west, man.
I mean, did you have momentswhen you first started where you
yes, where you felt veryprepared, but also did you have
(10:04):
moments where you thought, I amin way over my head?
Oh, for sure.
Jordan Kestler (10:10):
I didn't even I didn't even do an ICU rotation
in school.
I had just had that coupleweeks there, you know, a month
before.
But I was really lucky.
It was a small group.
I was in more of a communityhospital.
I had a lot of reallyexperienced physicians there
with me, a lot of reallyexperienced ICU nurses.
(10:32):
And so I had a lot of support.
Um, you know, they are reallywhat made me want to work in
critical care.
They helped me so much.
Uh, you know, that being said,of course, there are still
overwhelming pieces.
You know, I'm talking aboutpressers, and I'm like, I've
never heard of norepinephrinebefore.
(10:52):
I don't know how you know thedosing works for that.
I don't know how to talk aboutthese things, you know, all of
that, there's always going to besome degree of being
overwhelmed, especially in theICU, because we just don't cover
or really even touch on a lotof the things that you're going
(11:13):
to do there.
And it makes sense because wecover so much in PA school
anyway, but there's a biglearning curve on the job.
Ashley Love (11:22):
There's a couple of ways that I want to go with
this.
And um, I think the firstdirection I want to take is
going to be talking aboutmentorship.
And then the second direction Iwant to take is going to be
talking about continuingeducation.
So starting with mentorship,something that has come up
really, really frequently,especially in my conversations
(11:45):
with PAs, um, and actually withMDs as well and DOs is the fact
that as PAs, we're expected tohave a fantastic team
surrounding us, especiallystraight out of school.
Like you just said, you didn'thave an ICU rotation.
You had you had very littletraining comparatively on ICU,
and yet you're expected to gointo the ICU.
(12:07):
The reason we can do that isbecause we are trained as a
generalist, but then we alsohave mentorship from from our
MDs, our DOs, um, our our leadPAs, lead MPs there on the
floor.
Has critical care preservedthat mentorship?
Because I think there are areasof medicine where a PA shows up
day one and there is nosupervising anything, and you
(12:29):
are just meant to float andfigure it out.
Has the ICU really been able tomaintain that mentorship,
especially for new PA grads?
Jordan Kestler (12:38):
I would say yes and no.
Um I think protocol careprobably does a better job than
a lot of other specialties, Iwould imagine.
Um, you know, there's lots offellowships out there now.
In my hospital, we have threeto four months of orientation
that you're paired up with areally experienced PA or NP.
(13:00):
So the structure is there.
I think where it getschallenging is that there are so
many things to do now.
There are so many moving piecesthat even with the structure in
place to have that mentorship,I think it's challenging.
Schedules are rotating.
You may be with somebodydifferent.
(13:20):
People, you know, do thingsdifferently from their
colleagues sometimes.
And, you know, somebody tellingyou this is the way to do it
today, you might do it that waytomorrow, and you're with
somebody else.
And they're like, oh no, thisis the way I do it.
Uh flavor, flavor of the day.
Yeah, there's lots of meetingsto go to, there's lots of
administrative tasks that wehave now.
(13:41):
So I think the structure staysin place for critical care, but
having the direct attention andbeing able to give your focus
specifically to your orienteecan be challenging.
And I think that mentorship hasmaybe eroded a little bit in
(14:02):
that way.
Um, just because we're notalways able to give the
attention and support that Ithink that new practitioners or
even people who are just new tothe ICU really need.
Ashley Love (14:14):
Which is an accidental and perfect segue
into mentioning something thatyou have created after seeing
this gap.
Describe it for us a littlebit, and then we'll go into what
you mentioned, which isfellowship, continue education,
like we talked about.
So interesting.
Jordan Kestler (14:31):
Yeah, for sure.
So, as I mentioned before, youknow, walking into the ICU is a
new PA, new NP, resident, reallyany sort of provider.
There's so much medicine thatyou haven't covered in school
that so much of the focus is onlearning that medicine, and
(14:53):
rightfully so.
You know, that needs to besomething that we all know to be
able to function in the ICU.
But I think that there's a gapbetween learning the medicine,
being able to functiontheoretically, you know, from a
practicing perspective, and therealities of the culture
communicating in the ICU, how tofit in in the ICU and how to do
(15:15):
it confidently.
So I'm starting to create someresources essentially to address
a little bit of that gap.
It's hard when you walk intothe ICU and you already are
feeling insecure about notknowing so much of the medicine,
to then not know how tocommunicate that, to not know
how to say, I don't know, youknow, without feeling
(15:40):
embarrassed or insecure.
These are things that I thinkthat we can improve
significantly, not just to helpthe team around you, but to
help, you know, the clinicianthemselves uh to identify some
of those areas that they need tolearn more and be able to say,
(16:02):
this is what I know, this iswhat I can tell you so far, this
is where I'm getting stuck.
Ashley Love (16:08):
And this is a great time to pause for quality
questions.
This is a segment on the showwhere we talk about potential
interview questions that youmight hear on your own
pre-health interview.
So, what Jordan Kessler istalking about here is one of the
most important questions thatyou could be asked.
Tell me about a time when youdid not know the answer in a
(16:30):
high stakes or professionalsetting.
How did you communicate thatuncertainty?
And what did you learn aboutyourself in that moment?
Medicine is full ofuncertainty.
You are not expected to knoweverything, but you are expected
to recognize when you don'tknow, communicate it clearly,
(16:50):
and keep moving forward safely.
Students who struggle are oftenthe ones who feel like they
need to hide that uncertainty.
Strong clinicians do theopposite.
They name it, they frame it,and they keep thinking.
If you can show that in youranswer, you're showing your
interviewer how you will show upin real patient care.
(17:13):
And it doesn't just stop atquality questions.
There are more resources foryou as a prehealth student on
ShadowMenext.com to include ournewly released application
readiness course.
So head on over tocourses.shadowmext.com and check
it out.
Jordan Kestler (17:30):
Um, you know, so being able to communicate when
you don't know, being able tojust communicate in ways that
share language with everybodyelse in the ICU who has been
there for a long time.
You know, we all learn aboutS-BAR and whatnot.
What does that actually consistof?
You know, and learning tocommunicate confidently in that
(17:52):
same language helps to reducethe burden for the clinician
themselves and everybody elsearound them.
So if we're not having to spenda lot of time sifting through
what are you actually gettingat, what are you trying to say
here, it gives us the ability tofocus in on what we really need
without spending too much timetrying to even get to that
(18:15):
point.
Ashley Love (18:16):
It's incredible.
It's such a great idea and itseems so obvious.
And yet, like you mentioned, alot of times we dive so fast
into medicine and norepi andpressers and all of that
craziness that we we kind ofjust assume that you're gonna
get all the other stuff, and youwill.
You did, you do, but it's umit's a journey for a painful
(18:37):
journey.
Jordan Kestler (18:38):
Yeah, there's comfort and you know, stepping
into rounds for the first fewmonths, and there's tons of
people around and they'relistening to you talk, and
you're like stumbling over yourwords, saying, I don't really
know how to do this.
I watched somebody do ityesterday, so I'll try and piece
it together today, but it'suncomfortable.
And I think that you know wecan eliminate some of that
(18:59):
discomfort.
Ashley Love (19:00):
Absolutely.
I will link your site in theshow notes below for the ICU
Clinician's Compass, and you canget the ICU one-liner
blueprint, is available rightnow.
But Jordan, definitely keep usupdated as you continue to
release this absolutelyincredible resource.
And you know, I would reallyencourage students to check this
out.
Even if you don't know if ICUis for you, check out what
(19:22):
Jordan has created because youknow it's gonna give you a
really intimate look at her lifein ICU medicine right now and
critical care medicine.
So it's for everybody.
Um, it I honestly I'm gonnatake a look at it just to relive
the past and um maybe uh softensome of the PTSD I have from
being on the ICU.
Um, so this is a greatintroduction to you know ICU
(19:46):
medicine and critical care.
Tell us about the fellowshipsthat exist.
So um these would be post PAschool fellowships for people
who are interested in criticalcare medicine.
Jordan Kestler (20:00):
Yeah.
And so there are a lot more ofthem out there now.
I know my hospital hasdeveloped one over the last
couple of years, and it looksdifferent slightly in different
places.
Um, but my exposure to the oneat my hospital, it's one year
long, which I think is prettytypical of all of the critical
care fellowships.
And it's essentially anextension of your rotations with
(20:26):
more responsibility and a lotof again, that mentorship and
oversight.
Um, and so you know, ourfellows get to spend extended
periods of time on one singleunit to really learn the
medicine specific to the neuroICU, and then learn the medicine
specific to the cardiovascularICU, learn the medicine specific
(20:47):
to the trauma ICU.
Uh, and they get to rotatearound and get all of that
support.
They try to stick with the samepreceptors as often as they
can, and then they add inacademic uh lectures on top of
that.
So I think that's helpful tooto you know have that
supplemental reinforcement inaddition to practicing from day
(21:11):
to day.
You still get some of that moreformal instruction.
Um so far, it seems likeeverybody has enjoyed the
experience of doing thefellowship.
You work more hours than youmay work going straight into
practice.
But I think in something likecritical care, that's helpful.
Um, you know, if you go dayswithout seeing something, you
(21:35):
start to lose some of it alittle bit.
So having that reinforcement,seeing the same patients day
after day, uh, I think canreally help people to feel more
comfortable with the medicine inthe ICU.
Ashley Love (21:47):
Thanks for describing that.
Because for for so long, Iexpected these fellowships to
just be something that you wouldalready be doing anyway, right?
I mean, you're already showingup to work anyway, but you
really highlighted some of thedifferences between just, you
know, walking into the ICU andWorking as a PA versus accepting
one of these fellowships.
And it really is more intensivetraining so that you can be a
(22:08):
more confident clinician alittle bit faster.
Um Jordan, tell us about a dayon your life in the ICU.
So what kind of procedures areyou doing?
Are you doing procedures allday long?
Um are you sitting at acomputer charting all day long?
What does your life look like?
Yeah.
Jordan Kestler (22:27):
So I'll preface this by saying in I've worked in
the ICU in two differenthospitals, and it may look a
little different from place toplace.
It sort of depends.
Are you in a big academiccenter or are you in a smaller
community hospital?
I'm in a bigger hospital rightnow.
And so the typical day, you'regonna get there just before 7
(22:49):
a.m.
You'll get if it's a day shift,you'll get sign out from the
night shift, get sort of thatone-liner that I was telling you
about on every patient to giveyou an overview of why they're
here, what's going on, bringingkind of up to speed on where the
patient is right now, any sortof overnight events, anything to
pay attention to throughout theday.
(23:11):
Um you'll get that on the wholeunit.
And then there are multipleproviders, so you kind of split
up who's gonna have whichpatients for the day.
You'll do all of your chartreview, looking through vitals,
uh, looking at lab results,looking at any imaging, notes
from yesterday.
Um, you of course then will gosee your patients because none
(23:33):
of it means anything if youdon't put it into context by
seeing the patient.
Uh, and then by 9 a.m., we'llusually start our rounds with
the ICU team.
And so that's gonna be, youknow, all of the APPs, the
physician, the nurses, we'regonna go around from room to
room and talk more in depthabout each patient.
(23:55):
Our units are like 10 to 14patients, usually takes about
three to four hours to round.
Oh my goodness.
Yep.
So after you finish that, thenyou're going to start actually
doing all the things you talkedabout on rounds.
So, you know, callingconsultants, following up on
(24:15):
their recommendations, writingyour notes, following up on
whatever labs you've beentrending throughout the day,
because in the ICU you probablyare trending labs on people.
So you're gonna have more labsto look at and address
throughout the day.
Uh, if you have any proceduresto do, you're gonna be doing
those procedures.
Because I'm in a biggeracademic hospital, uh, we
(24:36):
actually continue to haveacademic lectures for CME sort
of built in throughout the week.
So you'll probably go to ameeting like that.
Uh, we'll do neuroradiologyrounds where the radiologist
will review some of the imagingof our patients so you can learn
more about that.
You're gonna be talking tofamilies, uh, writing your notes
(24:57):
if I didn't say that already.
We have a little sign outsystem that you're gonna be
updating also to make sure thatyou know the night shift can
take a look at what's been goingon, what you've done throughout
the day.
Um and so that's usually gonnabe the core of your day.
We're in the ICU, so it doesn'talways look like that.
(25:17):
Of course not.
You know, you may get theadmission that rolls in at 7, 10
a.m.
Who is on two pressers anddoesn't have any lines and is
not yet intubated.
And so that'll throw off yourwhole day.
You know, you need to obviouslyaddress the critical
life-threatening things firstimmediately, uh, and then build
(25:37):
the rest in kind of around that.
But typically it's you know, alot of the same things that
anybody inpatient would be doingum procedures kind of ebb and
flow.
Uh I'll do a lot of centrallines, arterial lines, but I may
not even be doing one of thoseevery shift.
Just all depends on you knowwhat the patient needs.
(26:01):
We, of course, don't want to bedoing things if they don't
truly need them.
So the those sort of are notnecessarily as consistent as all
of these other things thatwe're doing throughout the day.
Ashley Love (26:14):
When I think about the ICU, I think of a really
high adrenaline, a reallyconstant high adrenaline
environment.
And from what it sounds like,it seems very rhythmic in the
ICU.
And it seems like your day'skind of time blocked out, right?
And it's just such aninteresting difference between
(26:36):
like clinic work, for example,where it's a new patient every
20 minutes, you kind of resetevery 20 minutes, where really
it's your whole day, is it'sjust one day kind of macro view.
And then what you're doingthroughout that day is kind of
time blocked.
I it's a really interestingpattern.
Have you found that it is likesuper high adrenaline, crazy
crazy all the time?
(26:57):
Or are there moments of calm,or is it more calm?
Jordan Kestler (27:02):
I think it can be an overstimulating
environment.
There's any alarms going off,like I, you know, we talked
about earlier, people walking inand out of the unit.
I think grounding it in some ofthat time blocking, uh, some of
those frameworks, or what helpyou survive that and make sure
that you know things are goingas they need to.
(27:24):
So when that patient comesrolling in at 7:30 and you need
to do all of these things, youknow, well, this is where I was
in my day, and this is what Inormally do.
So I haven't forgotten whatelse needs to be done because I
just have this structure of I doX, Y, and Z.
Uh, and it helps you stay ontrack.
(27:45):
So I think the calmness comesfrom building these structures
into our day.
Personally, I feel that I canhandle the chaos more when I'm
working from you know, a goodbaseline of I know that this is,
you know, what we normally do.
(28:05):
So when you throw in acurveball, it's okay.
Because my whole day is notgoing to be chaos.
I can build it in.
Ashley Love (28:14):
That makes a lot of sense.
Jordan, absolutely, like Isaid, you I critical care PAs,
MDs, DOs, NPs, you guys arereally just so cool.
And um, we're so appreciativeof what you do.
And you usually are seeingpeople at their absolute worst
and hoping to never see themagain.
So um, thank you.
Thank you for the job you do.
(28:35):
Thank you for sharing it withus today, and thank you for
creating this ICU one-linerblueprint.
Again, I'll link it in the shownotes below.
Definitely check it out, guys,um, and see if the ICU life
might be for you.
Jordan, thank you so much.
Thank you so very much forlistening to this episode of
Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
(28:56):
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday.
As always, if you have anyquestions, let me know on
Facebook or Instagram.
Access you want, stories youneed, you're always invited to
Shadow Me Next.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only, and
(29:17):
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests,and do not necessarily reflect
the official policy or positionof any other agency,
organization, employer, orcompany.
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