January 19, 2026 • 32 mins
Sleepless nights rarely start in the bedroom. They usually begin with a racing mind, a tender story, or a belief we’re afraid to say out loud. We sit down with Dr. Benjamin Long, a dual board certified sleep medicine physician and pediatrician, military doctor, and author, to explore how real rest happens when data meets dignity and treatment meets presence.
We trace Dr. Long's journey from a 12-year-old who dreamed of pediatrics to a resident whose sleep rotation “clicked” and changed his career. He detilas the inner workings of sleep medicine: interpreting home tests and in-lab polysomnography, spotting pediatric apnea from a shaky phone video, and guiding exhausted parents through evidence-based behavioral tools. Beyond the monitors, he shows why the most common insomnia profile is the overthinker and how sleep deprivation rewires the brain (dimming the prefrontal cortex while turning up the amygdala) making focus sink and emotions swell.
What makes this conversation different is how Dr. Long integrates meaning into medicine. He takes a simple spiritual history (Is spirituality or religion important in your daily life?) in order to understand the patient’s inner world. That single question can surface existential worry, religious trauma, or grief that keeps people awake. We compare modern “clock in, clock out” systems with the relational roots of care, and hear vivid stories from military medicine that brought community pediatrics back to life: neighbors at the door, newborns on the dining table, trust built one late-night knock at a time.
If anxiety scripts your nights, you’ll leave with a practical tool: scheduled worry time. Set a daily, non-bedroom window to write every concern, expect a brief spike in worries, and retrain your mind over four to six weeks to save rumination for that container. Ben’s Sleep Habits Journal weaves medical strategies with reflective prompts to help anyone—faith-oriented or not—calm an overactive mind and reclaim rest.
Join us for a clear, compassionate guide to better sleep, smarter habits, and the courage to listen to what your insomnia is trying to say. If this conversation helped you, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so others can find it.
To connect with Dr. Benjamin Long, MD, please check out:
Instagram – thewholeheartedmd
TikTok – thewholeheartedmd
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamin-long-md-6384b8257/
https://www.SleepHabitsJournal.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley Love (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast
where I take you into and behindthe scenes of the medical world
to provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor, and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
healthcare field and uncovertheir unique stories, the joys
and challenges they face, andwhat drives them in their
careers.
It's access you want andstories you need.
Whether you're a pre-healthstudent or simply curious about
the healthcare field, I inviteyou to join me as we take a
conversational and personal lookinto the lives and minds of
(00:43):
leaders in medicine.
I don't want you to miss asingle one of these
conversations.
So make sure that you subscribeto this podcast, which will
automatically notify you whennew episodes are dropped.
And follow us on Instagram andFacebook at Shadow Me Next,
where we will review highlightsfrom this conversation and where
I'll give you sneak previews ofour upcoming guests.
(01:03):
Some careers in medicine areabout speed, some are about
precision, and some are aboutsitting with people in the
quiet, hardest moments of theirlives.
Today's guest knew he wanted tobe a pediatrician at 12 years
old.
But it was a single rotation insleep medicine that altered his
course.
What followed was a careershaped by listening, theology,
(01:26):
emotional intelligence, and anunderstanding that healing is
not always technical.
Sometimes it's deeply human.
Dr.
Benjamin Long is a dual boardcertified sleep medicine
physician and pediatrician, amilitary physician, and the
author of a sleep habitsjournal.
In this conversation, we talkabout burnout, insomnia, faith,
(01:50):
overthinking, and what it reallymeans to accompany someone
through suffering.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only and
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
(02:11):
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer, or company.
This is Shadow Me Next with Dr.
Benjamin Long.
Thank you so much for joiningme on Shadow Me Next today.
I've already told you howconvicting for me this
conversation is going to be, howmuch we are going to learn
about something that umeverybody always complains about
(02:34):
and almost wears as a badge ofhonor, but yet is not interested
in really working to fix it.
And we're going to highlightwhy they need to be interested
in that today.
So thanks for being here.
Dr. Benjamin Long (02:44):
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me on.
Ashley Love (02:46):
So let's talk a little bit about your
background.
You are a dual board certifiedsleep medicine physician and
pediatrician.
For those listening, tell uswhat this means.
What does it mean to be dualboard certified?
Dr. Benjamin Long (03:02):
Yeah, it when you think about um specializing
in medicine, most of the timeit's pretty straightforward with
like, I'm uh, you know, did apediatrics residency and then I
go and jump in to do pediatricgastroenterology.
Um, but the reason I use thelanguage dual board certified is
because even though my niche ispediatric sleep, I'm board
(03:25):
certified through partnershipbetween the American Board of
Pediatrics and the AmericanBoard of Internal Medicine to
see all ages of sleep.
So it's this really interestingthing.
Um, the most prominent you canget it in sleep medicine, and
allergy is another similar placewhere you can come from a
different residency corespecialty to be able to really,
(03:46):
in a way, practice a totallydifferent field of medicine.
Um, and it and instead of like,in my view, where so many
specialties kind of narrow downto your not just kids, but kids
who have stomach or heartproblems.
It's like I was able to kind ofgo through a door and almost
enter a totally new world whereI could see all ages uh for
(04:08):
sleep medicine.
Ashley Love (04:09):
Thank you so much for describing that.
So it's so interesting becauseI think this is one of those
questions that pre-healthstudents have a lot, right?
Is Ashley, I'm really worriedthat if I go to medical school
and I become a doctor, I'm goingto be pigeonholed into one
specialty for the rest of mylife.
And I am, I'm 21 years old andI can't plan the rest of my life
right now.
I don't know what I am gonnahave for dinner, let alone what
(04:30):
I want to practice for the nextfour decades.
Um, but what you've describedreally is is some flexibility
there, which is actually reallynice.
And the question I have for youis um almost a chicken or the
egg question, which came first.
Did you know you wanted to whenyou first started thinking
about medicine, did you know youwanted to become a pediatrician
and then found an interest insleep medicine?
(04:50):
Or was it the other way around?
Dr. Benjamin Long (04:53):
Definitely the first.
Um, my my grandfather was apediatrician in Columbus,
Georgia for um, you know, verylong time.
I I even have memories of goingup to the hospital with him as
like a kid and like sitting atthe nurses station and like kind
of doing rounds.
I guess this was like pre-HIPAkind of thing.
(05:14):
So um, so that was reallyformative for me.
Um, and you know, anytime Iwould go anywhere with my
grandfather, it was like Dr.
Sizemore.
We would always run intosomeone, kids are like running
up to him and stuff like that.
So that was like this big thingin my mind.
Um, and so I made a decision tobe a pediatrician like when I
(05:36):
was 12.
You know, I feel like a lot ofpre-med students, and then once
we got into medical school, itwas like people like me who were
like, I knew from a very youngage I wanted to do this, and
then I would meet these peoplewho were like, I just decided,
yeah, I'll give medicine a try.
And I'm like, what?
What are you talking about?
Like, you mean this hasn't beenlike your goal for the past
like 10 years or half your lifekind of a thing?
(05:57):
Um and and so I, you know,continued on that trajectory and
really I got towards the end ofmy pediatrics residency, and I
kind of, you know, I was likehead down, work, work, work,
work, work, work, work.
And like looked up and I waslike, oh, I don't know if this
is what I want to do because Ialmost had a little bit of the
(06:19):
rose-colored glasses on becauseI was like, the the kind of
stories and the what I witnesswith my grandfather and how he
practiced that exists, but it'smore rare these days.
Um, and so so some of itdefinitely was
self-preservation, I think.
Um, but also I just happened torotate on sleep.
(06:40):
And you know, we often talkabout click moments in medicine
where you have the undecidedstudent who, like, I don't know,
and then you you rotate onsomething and it just clicks.
That was exactly it for me insleep.
I my first patient was uh thepediatric sleep clinic.
And um, it was a kid who hadkind of like a complex medical
(07:00):
history that I was familiar withas a you know pediatrics
resident.
So the staff sent me in there,and it was just this really
different flow of theconversation.
And um the the cool thing aboutsleep is that it's like
whenever you can fix someone'ssleep, they're so happy.
(07:21):
You know, like like so, and itit's so some of it is a little
bit of like uh immediate likefeedback too, like by the you
know, second or third follow-up,usually people are like, Oh
yeah, I'm doing so much better,or no, it's you know, still not
helping.
And then I kind of have tocontinue down that road.
Um, so so yeah, I, you know, tothe point that when I was an
(07:44):
intern, I was in like anorientation breakout group that
was led by a sleep medicinefellow that year.
And I was like, sleep medicine,who wants to do that?
And it turned out it was me.
So you that was you.
Oh, that is such a cool thing.
And and you know, that's kindof what I expected was that um
you enter medicine, and like yousaid, from 12 years old.
(08:05):
So you knew this is what youwanted to do.
And I I do want to talk aboutyour grandfather here in just a
minute.
You enter medicine, you fall inlove with medicine, you all of
a sudden see behind the curtainof medicine, and then something
catches your eye, you know, isreally kind of the visual that
I'm hearing now.
And and I think sometimes itdoes take a bit of bravery to
follow that.
Like you said, you know, whowants to do sleep medicine?
(08:26):
Oh, wait a second.
Perhaps that is me.
Um, thank you for describingthat.
It's a really cool journey.
Let's go back and talk aboutyour grandfather for just a
second.
Um, because you mentionedsomething that I think will be
really, really helpful to ourpre-health students.
And that is um really the magicof medicine, is what you got to
see when you were 12 years old,right?
And the nurses and the banterwith the nurses and and the
(08:48):
respect that your grandfatherreally had earned um with his
families and their and thekiddos.
What and you mentioned what yousaw with him does still exist,
but it's also changed, right?
Let's give let's give ourpre-health students a peek
behind the curtain.
What are you what are youtalking about when you say those
(09:09):
things?
Yeah.
I think one thing is that theredefinitely are still
opportunities where you canespecially go into like a
primary care field and go to asmall town and you are
integrated into the fabric ofthat community in a in a very
(09:29):
real way.
There are voices online rightnow, and there's a little bit of
a conversation around should Iconsider medicine as a calling,
or is this just like a job likeany other job?
Um the the funny part aboutmedicine is there's a lot of a
um whether you want to call it aphilosophy worldview, um, I
(09:53):
would argue even a theology ofhow I um go into that, that
we're not trained to understandor talk about really, but that
undergirds so much of how we goabout doing our job as
practitioners.
And um, and so for there isI've seen this trend online of
(10:15):
more people like this is justjust like a job, nine to five,
like any other thing.
And in certain systems where umyou don't necessarily have that
control over your schedule umor um the autonomy as much to
make some of those decisions,then that is a little bit of a
(10:36):
self-preservation.
And it's kind of like, okay,I'm gonna clock in, clock out,
because that's what this systemdemands of me if I'm going to
survive here.
But there are otheropportunities where you can, you
know, control your ownschedule, you can um be
integrated into a community andyou know find connections and
(11:00):
fulfillment in a way that isthat kind of like older
medicine.
Um I do have a story.
Uh so for a long period, I haveactually been in the military
as a uh military practitioner.
Um and so the real beautifulthing is we when we lived up in
Alaska, we lived on base.
And so really every singlechild who was on my street was a
(11:24):
part of my clinic.
Ashley Love (11:25):
Wow.
Dr. Benjamin Long (11:26):
And so I had moms with newborn babies come
knock in the middle of the nightand they're like, oh my gosh,
can you just like you know checkon my baby?
And I that's very rare.
I would offer to all of myneighbors, hey, call like if I
can be your kind of checkpointso that way you're not spending
the next four hours in your ER,then like, yes, please utilize
(11:47):
me in that capacity.
Um, and people actually didn'ttake me up on that offer as much
as I thought they would,because most people wouldn't be
like, oh, I don't want to be abother, kind of a thing.
Yes.
And so, and so I had newbornbabies on my dining room table,
you know, I had um, you know,went over to a neighbor's house
and like diagnosed a pneumoniaand stuff like that.
(12:08):
And I was, it was so fulfillingbecause it was like, these are
people I know that I love andthey're so appreciative.
And so it just hits waydifferently.
And I was like, this must havebeen what medicine used to be
like.
Um, and and I know that isstill possible and still exists.
It's just you have to find it.
Ashley Love (12:26):
You do, and you have to fight for it too, I
think sometimes.
Um, oh, I've I kind of havegoosebumps thinking about that.
You know, it's really, it'swhat I think we all really,
really desire just from forgeneral care.
You know, when we are inemergent situations or when
we're in really significantdiagnostic, um, you know, the
(12:47):
throes of a bad diagnosis, yeah,those things become a little
bit less important, right?
We just need somebody to helpus to fix us to make us better.
When it comes to our our careas humans, and you mentioned
theology, and I am very excitedto dive into that because it is
a it plays a big part in who youare and how you practice.
But you know, whole personcare, it does require
(13:11):
relationships.
In my opinion, it really does.
I think um it makes patientsfeel more heard, and I think the
visits become more cooperativeand ultimately they end up with
a better lifestyle because oftheir relationship with the
person who's helping them withtheir health.
Um, you you mentioned howpeople don't take advantage
often when you really openyourself up as a clinician and a
(13:34):
person.
And I would absolutely agreewith that.
Um, especially recently, thenumber of times I've given my
cell phone to patients um withthe exact same instructions.
Please call me if you have anyquestions about anything.
You know, it's not so much aworkaround, it's just I want you
to feel like you have accessand it and that people are
available to you.
Yeah, they rarely call ever,hardly ever.
(13:55):
If anything, I get a MerryChristmas text as opposed to a
phone call about a health issue,you know.
So it's um it is really lovely.
And I thank you for describingall of that.
I think it's important thatstudents realize that it's not
always rainbows and butterflies,but there is still a lot of
goodness here in medicine andand you do sometimes have to
seek it out, but it's there.
Let's pivot just a bit umbecause I would really love to
(14:18):
hear a little bit about sleepmedicine and what that practice
looks like for you.
So describe a day to us whereum where you're focused on
taking care of people withdisordered, disordered sleeping.
Dr. Benjamin Long (14:29):
Yeah.
Um, I've been in a reallyunique situation for a lot of my
military career and thatactually I split my time between
my sleep practice and mygeneral pediatrics practice.
So I really have done both umfor my attending career to this
point.
Um, a typical day in uh thesleep medicine clinic is you
(14:50):
know, going in.
Most people will kind of havehalf days of um or some time
kind of in between to actuallyread sleep studies versus seeing
patients in clinic.
So those are kind of the two umpoints there.
Um you've got several differentkinds of sleep studies.
You have the ones a lot thatyou see that you can just do at
home um versus the full get upwhere you get have, you know,
(15:12):
leads on your head for the EEG,on your eyes, the nasal cannula,
chest bands, stuff on yourfinger, and all this stuff.
And then we're like, oh, alsoby the way, there's a camera
over there watching you go tosleep.
So super comfortable.
And um, and so then we read allof that data for a night and
kind of create a report based onthat.
(15:32):
So uh that's kind of one sideof sleep medicine.
Uh, I think a lot ofpractitioners really enjoy that
part because there's a littlebit more flexibility in that um
compared to having the demandsof uh appointments back to back.
And then um for me, a typicalday as uh my niche is pediatric
sleep is doing a pediatric sleepclinic.
(15:53):
And so that's where I'm havingpatients that sometimes it might
be a classic um seven-year-oldchild with you know huge
tonsils, and mom shows me avideo, and the kid's like, I'm
like, yeah, you need to get asleep study, you know, kind of a
thing.
Um, that that kind of goes downthat direction.
(16:13):
A lot of times for pediatricsbehavioral.
And so I made it a priority inmy fellowship and my training to
really make sure that I wascomfortable with the behavioral
sleep problems that occur inpediatrics.
And so that's everything fromthat we think of like babies who
are having difficulty aroundsleep training.
We could have a very longconversation on that because
(16:34):
there's so much misinformationout on the internet with that
right now.
And um, I can tell you thenumber of times I'm not
exaggerating, mothers sitting infront of me crying because
they're so afraid to do anythingand they don't know who to
believe, and they don't knowwhat to do.
And really, it's just a matterof I'm present, you know.
(16:55):
Um, a slight tangent, you know,we're there's so many
conversations around AI andconcerns about it overtaking our
jobs.
But in that moment, that'ssomething that AI is not going
to be able to do.
Is there is something to thehuman component of accompanying
people in their illnessexperience that I great.
If AI can diagnose better thanme, yes, like we we want that.
(17:18):
That is a good thing.
Um, but we'll always needpeople who are going to be able
to bear witness to suffering andaccompany people through that
as well.
Um, and so, and that's how Iview my time in the clinic with
my families is I'm they are on ajourney through the sleepless
night, and I am accompanyingthem through that.
Ashley Love (17:38):
Here on Shadow Me Next, we include what we call
quality questions in everyepisode because medicine is not
just about what you know, it'sabout who you are when things
are hard.
This is the kind of questionyou may hear in an interview.
It's also the kind of questionyou will have to answer in real
life, whether you are ready toor not.
So, today's quality question isthis Tell me about a time you
(18:02):
witnessed suffering.
How did it affect you?
This is not about having theperfect story.
It's about awareness.
It's about whether you noticewhat is happening around you and
if you are willing to sit withit.
If you're preparing forhealthcare, I want you to think
about this one.
Let it challenge you a little,because medicine certainly will.
(18:24):
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review, over on
ShadowmeNext.com.
There you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Dr. Benjamin Long (18:37):
And it's just a matter of tell me your story,
what um tools do I have thatcan help you along your journey?
And let's continue to see wherethat leads.
And um, and yeah, that's that'sa typical day in the sleep
clinic for me.
Ashley Love (18:52):
I love that.
I can only imagine thefrustration that a lot of your
patients feel.
And I do want to, I do want toask um in a second, uh,
sometimes how that frustrationmight manifest in clinic as
well.
But before we get that, webefore we get there, um, there
is a question that I'm veryinterested in.
And that is it kind of it tiesback to what you mentioned with
theology.
And um you've you've usedphrases like bearing witness to
(19:15):
suffering and things like thatthat are very difficult things
to walk through as a as aphysician, as a clinician,
right?
However, um, you have a reallygood support system.
But many people they'll lieawake at night because of uh,
you know, a million things.
Maybe not caffeine in kids, butcaffeine in adults or screen
time.
Um but from your perspective,how often is insomnia, and you
(19:38):
mentioned this a little bit withbehavioral, how often is
insomnia an emotional or aspiritual signal rather than an
actual sleep disorder?
Dr. Benjamin Long (19:49):
The more I've gone on a journey of you know,
thinking how can I integratetheology and medicine and how I
practice and how I care for mypatients, um, I really do see.
Those things as um aspects ofthe same thing.
When we're talking about mind,psyche, emotions, spirit, in a
(20:10):
way we're really describing allthe same thing.
Um, not to get toophilosophical too quickly, but
you know, too often we talkabout the um neuroanatomy
correlates of behaviors andemotions and things like that.
And that is very important.
You know, if someone has anoveractive amygdala, then
(20:32):
obviously that is going to playout in a very different way from
someone who doesn't have thosethings.
But you can lead yourself intowhat's called the fallacy of
misplaced concreteness, which iswhere you assume that the brain
scan, the brain, that physicalthing is the same thing as that
emotional experience.
(20:52):
And those aren't the two setsame things because if you think
about it in some way, we stilldon't even have like a physical
explanation for consciousness ora physical explanation for
dreams and memories.
You know, yes, we can aneurosurgeon could probe your
brain to, you know, spark somememory, but they're never going
(21:14):
to be able to spark the exactsame memory and duplicate that
amongst people.
That's crazy.
That's crazy, you know?
So that's why there are thesemysteries still within medicine
that, yes, we have amazingpowerful tools to be able to
help us to treat and accompanyour patients.
Um, but as I progress throughmy medical education, I've
(21:36):
realized there's something elsethat was um missing.
And like I said, all of us areoperating out of some kind of
worldview.
And whether you like it or not,you are operating out of out of
some kind of theology.
For people who aren't familiar,theology is just the study of
God and God's relationship tocreation.
And so if I believe that thereis no God, I am operating out of
(21:58):
a theology that there is noGod.
And that's going to extend tomy patients as well.
And so back to your question oninsomnia and kind of those
barriers, I would say it's thatis very common.
The reason why the first linetreatment for insomnia, the one
that we come back to that weknow has the best evidence
behind it, is cognitivebehavioral therapy for insomnia,
(22:19):
it's down to your thoughts andyour behaviors and how those
become barriers to good sleep.
And so that's why in mypractice, not only do I get a
social history for people, but Ialso do a spiritual history,
which is very simple.
I just ask, is spirituality orreligion an important part of
your daily life?
If my patient says no, nope,and then we continue and we have
(22:41):
the same kind of conversationthat we would normally have.
But if you would ask me what isthe one question that changes
the whole conversation, I wouldsay it's that one because
sometimes people say yes and wego in a totally different
direction.
And it always influences theconversation because in one way
I feel like I do have a fullervision of my patient and
(23:04):
understanding who they are, butin another way, sometimes it
really is the thing that isinterrupting their sleep.
You know, some people can'thelp it when they're having a
faith existential crisis, or um,unfortunately, when they have
uh experienced real religioushurt or church hurt, or to the
extent of religious trauma ofthose things.
(23:24):
Um, and the being in a medicalspace, it's not always um, I
think patients often feel likethis isn't the place to
necessarily talk about that perse.
Um, and so by me asking thatquestion, I open that door and
they know that they are safe topresent that side of themselves.
(23:45):
Um, in the same way, it's funnybecause as your pre-med
students get into medicalschool, we will ask a full
sexual history.
We will ask how you do it,where do things go, how often,
and you know, like go down thatlist and not blush.
But then it's so funny when Italk to colleagues and sometimes
and I talk about a spiritualhistory, and then all of a
(24:06):
sudden they're like, Oh, uh,that might make people
uncomfortable.
And I'm like, really?
Like, you know, like oh, okay.
So, so it it is this um reallyodd, interesting thing.
Um, but it it definitely can umwhen it does inform the
situation and the sleep problem,then it kind of gives you the
(24:28):
keys to have that conversation.
Versus if you're not evenasking the question, then you
might be shooting yourself inthe foot a little bit.
Ashley Love (24:36):
It's such an interesting take.
And one, I mean, I've Godworked in medicine for how long,
never considered.
All of it is extremely private,and every conversation could be
viewed as being highlyuncomfortable, right?
So to think of one as beingextremely normal and the other
one as being totally off limitsis just, oh my gosh, it's just
(24:56):
so interesting.
Um, okay, talking aboutdisordered sleep.
Um, obviously, you, you know,there's a million different
definitions of disordered sleep,right?
Difficulty falling asleep,difficulty staying asleep,
difficulty waking up, um, thingslike that.
But let's talk a little bitabout the emotions of that.
Um, you know, you mentionedmothers sitting there sobbing,
crying just because they don'tknow what to do.
There's a lot of emotion whenit comes to sleep.
(25:18):
What describe for us some ofthe emotions that play into
these sleep disorders thatyou're dealing with on a daily
basis, some that that maybecause the disordered sleep or
perhaps might stem fromdisordered sleep.
Dr. Benjamin Long (25:30):
Yeah.
I'd say a real common archetypeor profile to an insomnia that
I see is the overthinker, iswhat I call it, where that worry
and anxiety um can create ahuge barrier to sleep.
Um so especially, you know, I'msure you have a lot of
listeners who they're worryingabout their finals, they're
(25:50):
worrying about theirapplications, they're worrying
about their job shadowing,they're worrying about all these
kinds of things.
And that is what's kind of likeplaying in the night.
So, as far as just um common,that would definitely uh be a
big one.
And um, you know, sleep is thisunfortunate um vicious cycle in
(26:11):
a way, where when you havesleep deprivation, you know,
going back to those brainimaging studies, your your
prefrontal cortex that is havinglike less functioning.
Um, and so that's your you knowability to plan, your
attention, um, all of those kindof things from the top side.
And then your um basal ganglia,so then parts of the brain that
(26:34):
are more of the emotions, likethe amygdala and stuff of that
nature, those are going higher.
And so it's kind of like whatwe are the part of our brain
that is supposed to kind of helpus get through to our normal
daily lives, a lot of ourcognitive functions, that's
going down, our emotions aregoing up.
And so then that's why you getmore of the I'm, you know, I
(26:55):
just feel like I'm all over theplace, I'm moody, I'm impulsive,
or things of that nature whenyou're getting poor sleep.
Um, and so, so so often whenyou're experiencing that, then
you're worrying more, and thatcan kind of get you into this
vicious cycle that can be hardto break.
Ashley Love (27:11):
And if you're listening and you're thinking,
oh my goodness, this is me.
I need help here.
I would highly recommend youcheck out Dr.
Long's book.
It's called Sleep HabitsJournal Practices, Prayers, and
Devotions to Ease Your SleeplessNights.
This book is incredible.
It blends biblical reflections,which I would imagine is great
even for people who would notcall themselves Christian,
(27:33):
right?
Or or followers of the Bible.
Guided prayers, journalingprompts with tools that are
proven from sleep medicine tohelp you calm your anxious heart
and invite the Lord's presenceinto restless nights will it
will, it just sounds incredible.
I am furthermore, the cover ofthis book is gorgeous.
You guys, please, please checkit out.
(27:54):
Before we wrap up, Dr.
Long, I do want to ask what isone simple practical thing that
our listener can begin to doright now to help experience
better rest, aside from buyingyour book.
Dr. Benjamin Long (28:06):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Um, I would say for that um,you know, kind of overactive
mind, overthinker, one thingthat it doesn't sound like it
should work is actuallyscheduling worry time, which
that sounds totallycounterintuitive.
You're like, why you want me toworry on purpose?
(28:30):
And it's like, what I'm tryingto get you to do is to form
yourself into a person that youare limiting the time that you
are allowing yourself to worry.
So it's not magic.
Everyone always wants immediatemagic results.
Any behavioral interventionthat I give to someone, I say,
give this a full try for atleast four to six weeks.
(28:51):
We're actually practicing itevery day.
If you come back and you saylife got in the way and um you
weren't able to practice thisconsistently, that's fine.
But we can't say that thisbehavioral intervention doesn't
work until we've actually givenit a good try.
And so if scheduling worry timeis exactly what it sounds like,
I'm gonna have a time outsideof my bedroom.
So I'm not in my bedroom.
I'm not associating that as aplace where I'm going to worry.
(29:13):
I'm gonna do it before bedtime.
And I literally sit down and Ijust write out all of my
worries.
You're gonna notice a littlebit of a, you know, kind of bell
curve there.
And so a lot of patients comeback on the second or third
interview and they're like, Dr.
Long, I am worrying more.
So that's part of my advicefirst is okay, you will notice
an uptick because now you'reactually giving your time space
(29:35):
to worry.
So your mind is gonna give youall of those things to worry
about.
And if you continue to practiceit, eventually you will find
out you are going to um reachthe limit of the things that
you've worried about.
And that's why I tell people towrite it down because then you
can go back to, oh yeah, thisis, you know, that I'm thinking
about this, but that actually isconnected to this thing up here
(29:56):
too.
And so, and then where thisactually really helps for
bedtime is then if I'm outsideof my worry time, I'm going to
tell myself, I don't have tothink about this now.
I'll think about it at worrytime.
I love it.
And that does two things isone, it's you know, limiting
yourself to have just that onepoint in the day so that the
(30:16):
rest of the day you don't haveto worry about that.
Um, but then two, I tell mypatients, if it is really that
important, you will remember itat worry time.
Because you can you can getinto a worry where you're like,
well, I'm worried, I'm gonnaforget what I was worrying
about.
And that's like, no, that'sthat that we gotta stop that.
And so that's why I tell peopleif um you know, if it really is
(30:39):
important, it will show back upat your worry time.
And then you can allow thatworry to just go away if it you
can't remember it later.
That's fine.
It's not gonna blow up and bethe end of the world kind of a
thing.
Um, and so yes, one or twodays, you're still gonna worry.
Your sleep is not gonna be thatmuch different.
But if you start today and youdo that for like a full month,
(31:00):
then when you come back, you canbe like, wow, I not only have I
like put all my worries down,now I can kind of um use my
worry time to start addressingsome of those worries too.
And I can start, you know,maybe challenging some of them
or making some plans and how Ican kind of mitigate some of
those things.
And so it just really turns iton its head.
Ashley Love (31:22):
It's incredible advice, Dr.
Long.
Thank you so much, guys.
Definitely check out Dr.
Long on Instagram and TikTok,The Wholehearted MD, and find
him online at thewholeheartedmd.com as well as
his book,sleephabitsjournal.com.
Dr.
Long, it has been an incredibleconversation.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Dr. Benjamin Long (31:43):
Yeah, of course.
Thank you for having me on.
Ashley Love (31:45):
Thank you so very much for listening to this
episode of Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday.
As always, if you have anyquestions, let me know on
Facebook or Instagram.
Access you want, stories youneed, you're always invited to
Shadow Me Next.
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast
where I take you into and behindthe scenes of the medical world
to provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor, and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
healthcare field and uncovertheir unique stories, the joys
and challenges they face, andwhat drives them in their
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It's access you want andstories you need.
Whether you're a pre-healthstudent or simply curious about
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(00:43):
leaders in medicine.
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So make sure that you subscribeto this podcast, which will
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And follow us on Instagram andFacebook at Shadow Me Next,
where we will review highlightsfrom this conversation and where
I'll give you sneak previews ofour upcoming guests.
(01:03):
Some careers in medicine areabout speed, some are about
precision, and some are aboutsitting with people in the
quiet, hardest moments of theirlives.
Today's guest knew he wanted tobe a pediatrician at 12 years
old.
But it was a single rotation insleep medicine that altered his
course.
What followed was a careershaped by listening, theology,
(01:26):
emotional intelligence, and anunderstanding that healing is
not always technical.
Sometimes it's deeply human.
Dr.
Benjamin Long is a dual boardcertified sleep medicine
physician and pediatrician, amilitary physician, and the
author of a sleep habitsjournal.
In this conversation, we talkabout burnout, insomnia, faith,
(01:50):
overthinking, and what it reallymeans to accompany someone
through suffering.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only and
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
(02:11):
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer, or company.
This is Shadow Me Next with Dr.
Benjamin Long.
Thank you so much for joiningme on Shadow Me Next today.
I've already told you howconvicting for me this
conversation is going to be, howmuch we are going to learn
about something that umeverybody always complains about
(02:34):
and almost wears as a badge ofhonor, but yet is not interested
in really working to fix it.
And we're going to highlightwhy they need to be interested
in that today.
So thanks for being here.
Dr. Benjamin Long (02:44):
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me on.
Ashley Love (02:46):
So let's talk a little bit about your
background.
You are a dual board certifiedsleep medicine physician and
pediatrician.
For those listening, tell uswhat this means.
What does it mean to be dualboard certified?
Dr. Benjamin Long (03:02):
Yeah, it when you think about um specializing
in medicine, most of the timeit's pretty straightforward with
like, I'm uh, you know, did apediatrics residency and then I
go and jump in to do pediatricgastroenterology.
Um, but the reason I use thelanguage dual board certified is
because even though my niche ispediatric sleep, I'm board
(03:25):
certified through partnershipbetween the American Board of
Pediatrics and the AmericanBoard of Internal Medicine to
see all ages of sleep.
So it's this really interestingthing.
Um, the most prominent you canget it in sleep medicine, and
allergy is another similar placewhere you can come from a
different residency corespecialty to be able to really,
(03:46):
in a way, practice a totallydifferent field of medicine.
Um, and it and instead of like,in my view, where so many
specialties kind of narrow downto your not just kids, but kids
who have stomach or heartproblems.
It's like I was able to kind ofgo through a door and almost
enter a totally new world whereI could see all ages uh for
(04:08):
sleep medicine.
Ashley Love (04:09):
Thank you so much for describing that.
So it's so interesting becauseI think this is one of those
questions that pre-healthstudents have a lot, right?
Is Ashley, I'm really worriedthat if I go to medical school
and I become a doctor, I'm goingto be pigeonholed into one
specialty for the rest of mylife.
And I am, I'm 21 years old andI can't plan the rest of my life
right now.
I don't know what I am gonnahave for dinner, let alone what
(04:30):
I want to practice for the nextfour decades.
Um, but what you've describedreally is is some flexibility
there, which is actually reallynice.
And the question I have for youis um almost a chicken or the
egg question, which came first.
Did you know you wanted to whenyou first started thinking
about medicine, did you know youwanted to become a pediatrician
and then found an interest insleep medicine?
(04:50):
Or was it the other way around?
Dr. Benjamin Long (04:53):
Definitely the first.
Um, my my grandfather was apediatrician in Columbus,
Georgia for um, you know, verylong time.
I I even have memories of goingup to the hospital with him as
like a kid and like sitting atthe nurses station and like kind
of doing rounds.
I guess this was like pre-HIPAkind of thing.
(05:14):
So um, so that was reallyformative for me.
Um, and you know, anytime Iwould go anywhere with my
grandfather, it was like Dr.
Sizemore.
We would always run intosomeone, kids are like running
up to him and stuff like that.
So that was like this big thingin my mind.
Um, and so I made a decision tobe a pediatrician like when I
(05:36):
was 12.
You know, I feel like a lot ofpre-med students, and then once
we got into medical school, itwas like people like me who were
like, I knew from a very youngage I wanted to do this, and
then I would meet these peoplewho were like, I just decided,
yeah, I'll give medicine a try.
And I'm like, what?
What are you talking about?
Like, you mean this hasn't beenlike your goal for the past
like 10 years or half your lifekind of a thing?
(05:57):
Um and and so I, you know,continued on that trajectory and
really I got towards the end ofmy pediatrics residency, and I
kind of, you know, I was likehead down, work, work, work,
work, work, work, work.
And like looked up and I waslike, oh, I don't know if this
is what I want to do because Ialmost had a little bit of the
(06:19):
rose-colored glasses on becauseI was like, the the kind of
stories and the what I witnesswith my grandfather and how he
practiced that exists, but it'smore rare these days.
Um, and so so some of itdefinitely was
self-preservation, I think.
Um, but also I just happened torotate on sleep.
(06:40):
And you know, we often talkabout click moments in medicine
where you have the undecidedstudent who, like, I don't know,
and then you you rotate onsomething and it just clicks.
That was exactly it for me insleep.
I my first patient was uh thepediatric sleep clinic.
And um, it was a kid who hadkind of like a complex medical
(07:00):
history that I was familiar withas a you know pediatrics
resident.
So the staff sent me in there,and it was just this really
different flow of theconversation.
And um the the cool thing aboutsleep is that it's like
whenever you can fix someone'ssleep, they're so happy.
(07:21):
You know, like like so, and itit's so some of it is a little
bit of like uh immediate likefeedback too, like by the you
know, second or third follow-up,usually people are like, Oh
yeah, I'm doing so much better,or no, it's you know, still not
helping.
And then I kind of have tocontinue down that road.
Um, so so yeah, I, you know, tothe point that when I was an
(07:44):
intern, I was in like anorientation breakout group that
was led by a sleep medicinefellow that year.
And I was like, sleep medicine,who wants to do that?
And it turned out it was me.
So you that was you.
Oh, that is such a cool thing.
And and you know, that's kindof what I expected was that um
you enter medicine, and like yousaid, from 12 years old.
(08:05):
So you knew this is what youwanted to do.
And I I do want to talk aboutyour grandfather here in just a
minute.
You enter medicine, you fall inlove with medicine, you all of
a sudden see behind the curtainof medicine, and then something
catches your eye, you know, isreally kind of the visual that
I'm hearing now.
And and I think sometimes itdoes take a bit of bravery to
follow that.
Like you said, you know, whowants to do sleep medicine?
(08:26):
Oh, wait a second.
Perhaps that is me.
Um, thank you for describingthat.
It's a really cool journey.
Let's go back and talk aboutyour grandfather for just a
second.
Um, because you mentionedsomething that I think will be
really, really helpful to ourpre-health students.
And that is um really the magicof medicine, is what you got to
see when you were 12 years old,right?
And the nurses and the banterwith the nurses and and the
(08:48):
respect that your grandfatherreally had earned um with his
families and their and thekiddos.
What and you mentioned what yousaw with him does still exist,
but it's also changed, right?
Let's give let's give ourpre-health students a peek
behind the curtain.
What are you what are youtalking about when you say those
(09:09):
things?
Yeah.
I think one thing is that theredefinitely are still
opportunities where you canespecially go into like a
primary care field and go to asmall town and you are
integrated into the fabric ofthat community in a in a very
(09:29):
real way.
There are voices online rightnow, and there's a little bit of
a conversation around should Iconsider medicine as a calling,
or is this just like a job likeany other job?
Um the the funny part aboutmedicine is there's a lot of a
um whether you want to call it aphilosophy worldview, um, I
(09:53):
would argue even a theology ofhow I um go into that, that
we're not trained to understandor talk about really, but that
undergirds so much of how we goabout doing our job as
practitioners.
And um, and so for there isI've seen this trend online of
(10:15):
more people like this is justjust like a job, nine to five,
like any other thing.
And in certain systems where umyou don't necessarily have that
control over your schedule umor um the autonomy as much to
make some of those decisions,then that is a little bit of a
(10:36):
self-preservation.
And it's kind of like, okay,I'm gonna clock in, clock out,
because that's what this systemdemands of me if I'm going to
survive here.
But there are otheropportunities where you can, you
know, control your ownschedule, you can um be
integrated into a community andyou know find connections and
(11:00):
fulfillment in a way that isthat kind of like older
medicine.
Um I do have a story.
Uh so for a long period, I haveactually been in the military
as a uh military practitioner.
Um and so the real beautifulthing is we when we lived up in
Alaska, we lived on base.
And so really every singlechild who was on my street was a
(11:24):
part of my clinic.
Ashley Love (11:25):
Wow.
Dr. Benjamin Long (11:26):
And so I had moms with newborn babies come
knock in the middle of the nightand they're like, oh my gosh,
can you just like you know checkon my baby?
And I that's very rare.
I would offer to all of myneighbors, hey, call like if I
can be your kind of checkpointso that way you're not spending
the next four hours in your ER,then like, yes, please utilize
(11:47):
me in that capacity.
Um, and people actually didn'ttake me up on that offer as much
as I thought they would,because most people wouldn't be
like, oh, I don't want to be abother, kind of a thing.
Yes.
And so, and so I had newbornbabies on my dining room table,
you know, I had um, you know,went over to a neighbor's house
and like diagnosed a pneumoniaand stuff like that.
(12:08):
And I was, it was so fulfillingbecause it was like, these are
people I know that I love andthey're so appreciative.
And so it just hits waydifferently.
And I was like, this must havebeen what medicine used to be
like.
Um, and and I know that isstill possible and still exists.
It's just you have to find it.
Ashley Love (12:26):
You do, and you have to fight for it too, I
think sometimes.
Um, oh, I've I kind of havegoosebumps thinking about that.
You know, it's really, it'swhat I think we all really,
really desire just from forgeneral care.
You know, when we are inemergent situations or when
we're in really significantdiagnostic, um, you know, the
(12:47):
throes of a bad diagnosis, yeah,those things become a little
bit less important, right?
We just need somebody to helpus to fix us to make us better.
When it comes to our our careas humans, and you mentioned
theology, and I am very excitedto dive into that because it is
a it plays a big part in who youare and how you practice.
But you know, whole personcare, it does require
(13:11):
relationships.
In my opinion, it really does.
I think um it makes patientsfeel more heard, and I think the
visits become more cooperativeand ultimately they end up with
a better lifestyle because oftheir relationship with the
person who's helping them withtheir health.
Um, you you mentioned howpeople don't take advantage
often when you really openyourself up as a clinician and a
(13:34):
person.
And I would absolutely agreewith that.
Um, especially recently, thenumber of times I've given my
cell phone to patients um withthe exact same instructions.
Please call me if you have anyquestions about anything.
You know, it's not so much aworkaround, it's just I want you
to feel like you have accessand it and that people are
available to you.
Yeah, they rarely call ever,hardly ever.
(13:55):
If anything, I get a MerryChristmas text as opposed to a
phone call about a health issue,you know.
So it's um it is really lovely.
And I thank you for describingall of that.
I think it's important thatstudents realize that it's not
always rainbows and butterflies,but there is still a lot of
goodness here in medicine andand you do sometimes have to
seek it out, but it's there.
Let's pivot just a bit umbecause I would really love to
(14:18):
hear a little bit about sleepmedicine and what that practice
looks like for you.
So describe a day to us whereum where you're focused on
taking care of people withdisordered, disordered sleeping.
Dr. Benjamin Long (14:29):
Yeah.
Um, I've been in a reallyunique situation for a lot of my
military career and thatactually I split my time between
my sleep practice and mygeneral pediatrics practice.
So I really have done both umfor my attending career to this
point.
Um, a typical day in uh thesleep medicine clinic is you
(14:50):
know, going in.
Most people will kind of havehalf days of um or some time
kind of in between to actuallyread sleep studies versus seeing
patients in clinic.
So those are kind of the two umpoints there.
Um you've got several differentkinds of sleep studies.
You have the ones a lot thatyou see that you can just do at
home um versus the full get upwhere you get have, you know,
(15:12):
leads on your head for the EEG,on your eyes, the nasal cannula,
chest bands, stuff on yourfinger, and all this stuff.
And then we're like, oh, alsoby the way, there's a camera
over there watching you go tosleep.
So super comfortable.
And um, and so then we read allof that data for a night and
kind of create a report based onthat.
(15:32):
So uh that's kind of one sideof sleep medicine.
Uh, I think a lot ofpractitioners really enjoy that
part because there's a littlebit more flexibility in that um
compared to having the demandsof uh appointments back to back.
And then um for me, a typicalday as uh my niche is pediatric
sleep is doing a pediatric sleepclinic.
(15:53):
And so that's where I'm havingpatients that sometimes it might
be a classic um seven-year-oldchild with you know huge
tonsils, and mom shows me avideo, and the kid's like, I'm
like, yeah, you need to get asleep study, you know, kind of a
thing.
Um, that that kind of goes downthat direction.
(16:13):
A lot of times for pediatricsbehavioral.
And so I made it a priority inmy fellowship and my training to
really make sure that I wascomfortable with the behavioral
sleep problems that occur inpediatrics.
And so that's everything fromthat we think of like babies who
are having difficulty aroundsleep training.
We could have a very longconversation on that because
(16:34):
there's so much misinformationout on the internet with that
right now.
And um, I can tell you thenumber of times I'm not
exaggerating, mothers sitting infront of me crying because
they're so afraid to do anythingand they don't know who to
believe, and they don't knowwhat to do.
And really, it's just a matterof I'm present, you know.
(16:55):
Um, a slight tangent, you know,we're there's so many
conversations around AI andconcerns about it overtaking our
jobs.
But in that moment, that'ssomething that AI is not going
to be able to do.
Is there is something to thehuman component of accompanying
people in their illnessexperience that I great.
If AI can diagnose better thanme, yes, like we we want that.
(17:18):
That is a good thing.
Um, but we'll always needpeople who are going to be able
to bear witness to suffering andaccompany people through that
as well.
Um, and so, and that's how Iview my time in the clinic with
my families is I'm they are on ajourney through the sleepless
night, and I am accompanyingthem through that.
Ashley Love (17:38):
Here on Shadow Me Next, we include what we call
quality questions in everyepisode because medicine is not
just about what you know, it'sabout who you are when things
are hard.
This is the kind of questionyou may hear in an interview.
It's also the kind of questionyou will have to answer in real
life, whether you are ready toor not.
So, today's quality question isthis Tell me about a time you
(18:02):
witnessed suffering.
How did it affect you?
This is not about having theperfect story.
It's about awareness.
It's about whether you noticewhat is happening around you and
if you are willing to sit withit.
If you're preparing forhealthcare, I want you to think
about this one.
Let it challenge you a little,because medicine certainly will.
(18:24):
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review, over on
ShadowmeNext.com.
There you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Dr. Benjamin Long (18:37):
And it's just a matter of tell me your story,
what um tools do I have thatcan help you along your journey?
And let's continue to see wherethat leads.
And um, and yeah, that's that'sa typical day in the sleep
clinic for me.
Ashley Love (18:52):
I love that.
I can only imagine thefrustration that a lot of your
patients feel.
And I do want to, I do want toask um in a second, uh,
sometimes how that frustrationmight manifest in clinic as
well.
But before we get that, webefore we get there, um, there
is a question that I'm veryinterested in.
And that is it kind of it tiesback to what you mentioned with
theology.
And um you've you've usedphrases like bearing witness to
(19:15):
suffering and things like thatthat are very difficult things
to walk through as a as aphysician, as a clinician,
right?
However, um, you have a reallygood support system.
But many people they'll lieawake at night because of uh,
you know, a million things.
Maybe not caffeine in kids, butcaffeine in adults or screen
time.
Um but from your perspective,how often is insomnia, and you
(19:38):
mentioned this a little bit withbehavioral, how often is
insomnia an emotional or aspiritual signal rather than an
actual sleep disorder?
Dr. Benjamin Long (19:49):
The more I've gone on a journey of you know,
thinking how can I integratetheology and medicine and how I
practice and how I care for mypatients, um, I really do see.
Those things as um aspects ofthe same thing.
When we're talking about mind,psyche, emotions, spirit, in a
(20:10):
way we're really describing allthe same thing.
Um, not to get toophilosophical too quickly, but
you know, too often we talkabout the um neuroanatomy
correlates of behaviors andemotions and things like that.
And that is very important.
You know, if someone has anoveractive amygdala, then
(20:32):
obviously that is going to playout in a very different way from
someone who doesn't have thosethings.
But you can lead yourself intowhat's called the fallacy of
misplaced concreteness, which iswhere you assume that the brain
scan, the brain, that physicalthing is the same thing as that
emotional experience.
(20:52):
And those aren't the two setsame things because if you think
about it in some way, we stilldon't even have like a physical
explanation for consciousness ora physical explanation for
dreams and memories.
You know, yes, we can aneurosurgeon could probe your
brain to, you know, spark somememory, but they're never going
(21:14):
to be able to spark the exactsame memory and duplicate that
amongst people.
That's crazy.
That's crazy, you know?
So that's why there are thesemysteries still within medicine
that, yes, we have amazingpowerful tools to be able to
help us to treat and accompanyour patients.
Um, but as I progress throughmy medical education, I've
(21:36):
realized there's something elsethat was um missing.
And like I said, all of us areoperating out of some kind of
worldview.
And whether you like it or not,you are operating out of out of
some kind of theology.
For people who aren't familiar,theology is just the study of
God and God's relationship tocreation.
And so if I believe that thereis no God, I am operating out of
(21:58):
a theology that there is noGod.
And that's going to extend tomy patients as well.
And so back to your question oninsomnia and kind of those
barriers, I would say it's thatis very common.
The reason why the first linetreatment for insomnia, the one
that we come back to that weknow has the best evidence
behind it, is cognitivebehavioral therapy for insomnia,
(22:19):
it's down to your thoughts andyour behaviors and how those
become barriers to good sleep.
And so that's why in mypractice, not only do I get a
social history for people, but Ialso do a spiritual history,
which is very simple.
I just ask, is spirituality orreligion an important part of
your daily life?
If my patient says no, nope,and then we continue and we have
(22:41):
the same kind of conversationthat we would normally have.
But if you would ask me what isthe one question that changes
the whole conversation, I wouldsay it's that one because
sometimes people say yes and wego in a totally different
direction.
And it always influences theconversation because in one way
I feel like I do have a fullervision of my patient and
(23:04):
understanding who they are, butin another way, sometimes it
really is the thing that isinterrupting their sleep.
You know, some people can'thelp it when they're having a
faith existential crisis, or um,unfortunately, when they have
uh experienced real religioushurt or church hurt, or to the
extent of religious trauma ofthose things.
(23:24):
Um, and the being in a medicalspace, it's not always um, I
think patients often feel likethis isn't the place to
necessarily talk about that perse.
Um, and so by me asking thatquestion, I open that door and
they know that they are safe topresent that side of themselves.
(23:45):
Um, in the same way, it's funnybecause as your pre-med
students get into medicalschool, we will ask a full
sexual history.
We will ask how you do it,where do things go, how often,
and you know, like go down thatlist and not blush.
But then it's so funny when Italk to colleagues and sometimes
and I talk about a spiritualhistory, and then all of a
(24:06):
sudden they're like, Oh, uh,that might make people
uncomfortable.
And I'm like, really?
Like, you know, like oh, okay.
So, so it it is this um reallyodd, interesting thing.
Um, but it it definitely can umwhen it does inform the
situation and the sleep problem,then it kind of gives you the
(24:28):
keys to have that conversation.
Versus if you're not evenasking the question, then you
might be shooting yourself inthe foot a little bit.
Ashley Love (24:36):
It's such an interesting take.
And one, I mean, I've Godworked in medicine for how long,
never considered.
All of it is extremely private,and every conversation could be
viewed as being highlyuncomfortable, right?
So to think of one as beingextremely normal and the other
one as being totally off limitsis just, oh my gosh, it's just
(24:56):
so interesting.
Um, okay, talking aboutdisordered sleep.
Um, obviously, you, you know,there's a million different
definitions of disordered sleep,right?
Difficulty falling asleep,difficulty staying asleep,
difficulty waking up, um, thingslike that.
But let's talk a little bitabout the emotions of that.
Um, you know, you mentionedmothers sitting there sobbing,
crying just because they don'tknow what to do.
There's a lot of emotion whenit comes to sleep.
(25:18):
What describe for us some ofthe emotions that play into
these sleep disorders thatyou're dealing with on a daily
basis, some that that maybecause the disordered sleep or
perhaps might stem fromdisordered sleep.
Dr. Benjamin Long (25:30):
Yeah.
I'd say a real common archetypeor profile to an insomnia that
I see is the overthinker, iswhat I call it, where that worry
and anxiety um can create ahuge barrier to sleep.
Um so especially, you know, I'msure you have a lot of
listeners who they're worryingabout their finals, they're
(25:50):
worrying about theirapplications, they're worrying
about their job shadowing,they're worrying about all these
kinds of things.
And that is what's kind of likeplaying in the night.
So, as far as just um common,that would definitely uh be a
big one.
And um, you know, sleep is thisunfortunate um vicious cycle in
(26:11):
a way, where when you havesleep deprivation, you know,
going back to those brainimaging studies, your your
prefrontal cortex that is havinglike less functioning.
Um, and so that's your you knowability to plan, your
attention, um, all of those kindof things from the top side.
And then your um basal ganglia,so then parts of the brain that
(26:34):
are more of the emotions, likethe amygdala and stuff of that
nature, those are going higher.
And so it's kind of like whatwe are the part of our brain
that is supposed to kind of helpus get through to our normal
daily lives, a lot of ourcognitive functions, that's
going down, our emotions aregoing up.
And so then that's why you getmore of the I'm, you know, I
(26:55):
just feel like I'm all over theplace, I'm moody, I'm impulsive,
or things of that nature whenyou're getting poor sleep.
Um, and so, so so often whenyou're experiencing that, then
you're worrying more, and thatcan kind of get you into this
vicious cycle that can be hardto break.
Ashley Love (27:11):
And if you're listening and you're thinking,
oh my goodness, this is me.
I need help here.
I would highly recommend youcheck out Dr.
Long's book.
It's called Sleep HabitsJournal Practices, Prayers, and
Devotions to Ease Your SleeplessNights.
This book is incredible.
It blends biblical reflections,which I would imagine is great
even for people who would notcall themselves Christian,
(27:33):
right?
Or or followers of the Bible.
Guided prayers, journalingprompts with tools that are
proven from sleep medicine tohelp you calm your anxious heart
and invite the Lord's presenceinto restless nights will it
will, it just sounds incredible.
I am furthermore, the cover ofthis book is gorgeous.
You guys, please, please checkit out.
(27:54):
Before we wrap up, Dr.
Long, I do want to ask what isone simple practical thing that
our listener can begin to doright now to help experience
better rest, aside from buyingyour book.
Dr. Benjamin Long (28:06):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Um, I would say for that um,you know, kind of overactive
mind, overthinker, one thingthat it doesn't sound like it
should work is actuallyscheduling worry time, which
that sounds totallycounterintuitive.
You're like, why you want me toworry on purpose?
(28:30):
And it's like, what I'm tryingto get you to do is to form
yourself into a person that youare limiting the time that you
are allowing yourself to worry.
So it's not magic.
Everyone always wants immediatemagic results.
Any behavioral interventionthat I give to someone, I say,
give this a full try for atleast four to six weeks.
(28:51):
We're actually practicing itevery day.
If you come back and you saylife got in the way and um you
weren't able to practice thisconsistently, that's fine.
But we can't say that thisbehavioral intervention doesn't
work until we've actually givenit a good try.
And so if scheduling worry timeis exactly what it sounds like,
I'm gonna have a time outsideof my bedroom.
So I'm not in my bedroom.
I'm not associating that as aplace where I'm going to worry.
(29:13):
I'm gonna do it before bedtime.
And I literally sit down and Ijust write out all of my
worries.
You're gonna notice a littlebit of a, you know, kind of bell
curve there.
And so a lot of patients comeback on the second or third
interview and they're like, Dr.
Long, I am worrying more.
So that's part of my advicefirst is okay, you will notice
an uptick because now you'reactually giving your time space
(29:35):
to worry.
So your mind is gonna give youall of those things to worry
about.
And if you continue to practiceit, eventually you will find
out you are going to um reachthe limit of the things that
you've worried about.
And that's why I tell people towrite it down because then you
can go back to, oh yeah, thisis, you know, that I'm thinking
about this, but that actually isconnected to this thing up here
(29:56):
too.
And so, and then where thisactually really helps for
bedtime is then if I'm outsideof my worry time, I'm going to
tell myself, I don't have tothink about this now.
I'll think about it at worrytime.
I love it.
And that does two things isone, it's you know, limiting
yourself to have just that onepoint in the day so that the
(30:16):
rest of the day you don't haveto worry about that.
Um, but then two, I tell mypatients, if it is really that
important, you will remember itat worry time.
Because you can you can getinto a worry where you're like,
well, I'm worried, I'm gonnaforget what I was worrying
about.
And that's like, no, that'sthat that we gotta stop that.
And so that's why I tell peopleif um you know, if it really is
(30:39):
important, it will show back upat your worry time.
And then you can allow thatworry to just go away if it you
can't remember it later.
That's fine.
It's not gonna blow up and bethe end of the world kind of a
thing.
Um, and so yes, one or twodays, you're still gonna worry.
Your sleep is not gonna be thatmuch different.
But if you start today and youdo that for like a full month,
(31:00):
then when you come back, you canbe like, wow, I not only have I
like put all my worries down,now I can kind of um use my
worry time to start addressingsome of those worries too.
And I can start, you know,maybe challenging some of them
or making some plans and how Ican kind of mitigate some of
those things.
And so it just really turns iton its head.
Ashley Love (31:22):
It's incredible advice, Dr.
Long.
Thank you so much, guys.
Definitely check out Dr.
Long on Instagram and TikTok,The Wholehearted MD, and find
him online at thewholeheartedmd.com as well as
his book,sleephabitsjournal.com.
Dr.
Long, it has been an incredibleconversation.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Dr. Benjamin Long (31:43):
Yeah, of course.
Thank you for having me on.
Ashley Love (31:45):
Thank you so very much for listening to this
episode of Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday.
As always, if you have anyquestions, let me know on
Facebook or Instagram.
Access you want, stories youneed, you're always invited to
Shadow Me Next.
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