December 26, 2024 • 43 mins
What happens when the paths of engineering and faith intersect within a family known for its spiritual leadership? Join us as my brother, John Koch, shares his enlightening journey from a household of pastors to a career in engineering. Through humorous anecdotes and heartfelt memories, we explore how our father's subtle influence and passion for innovative projects might have inadvertently steered John toward his vocation. Whether it's recounting his mathematical prowess in high school or the joy of working on family projects, John's story is a testament to the confluence of upbringing, talent, and passion.
As we navigate the evolving challenges facing the modern church, this episode draws parallels between problem-solving in engineering and church leadership. Together with John, we discuss the crucial role of teamwork and diverse viewpoints in addressing skepticism and declining attendance. By leveraging insights from our engineering backgrounds, we explore how churches can adapt and find a relevant voice in today's cultural landscape. This segment is a call to action for leaders to embrace fresh perspectives and craft innovative strategies in their spiritual missions.
The episode takes a deeply personal turn as we delve into the realms of parenting, forgiveness, and resilience. Through stories of family life and Wendy's courageous journey with her spine condition, we underscore the power of faith and supportive partnerships. From the complexities of parenting to the redemptive purpose found in life's struggles, our conversation highlights the importance of being present and adaptable. John's narrative, along with Wendy's unwavering strength, offers listeners an inspiring reminder of the courage it takes to navigate life's unexpected challenges while holding onto a vision of hope and purpose.
Learn more about our amazing sponsor Stone Stash Coffee.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank you for being here for the Clemson game.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Yes, Giving us an excuse to do this.
I am pleased to be here towatch this game.
Unfortunately, this will air,and so anything I say about them
winning may look pretty foolish.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
But we did bring the orange in just for you.
Well, thank you.
Did you notice that?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
That looks appropriately orange and not
that burnt stuff that you guystalk about down here.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Well, thank you for joining us for another episode
of Sidewalk Conversations.
I am delighted today to have mybrother in town.
He is actually here for theClemson Texas bowl game and it
was kind of a last minute deal.
We just decided, okay, let'ssee if we can't make this happen
.
And then, once he committed, Isaid, oh, and, by the way, how
(00:51):
about doing?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
an entrance fee that was not pre-disclosed?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yes, so I am delighted to introduce you to my
brother, John Koch.
John, thanks for being with uson the podcast today.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Really glad you came.
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(01:51):
You'll be glad you did Allright, john, I want to dive
right in.
I want to start by saying okay,you come from a family of
pastors and people who are veryministry and then you decided
you're going to be an engineerand I'm just curious like did
(02:12):
you know that that was somethingthat you were going to do from
early on?
How did you get into thatcareer?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, no, it seemed the pastoral space was pretty
crowded.
If I wanted to do something,I'll tell you what it wasn't.
It wasn't a bolt of lightning.
Right Like John, thou shalt bean engineer.
I was no different than anyother 17 or 18-year-old Not a
(02:37):
clue.
Not a clue what I wanted to do,not a clue what adult work was
really like.
The one thing I did know isthat I seem to be pretty good at
math, and I heard hey, you know, if you're good at math,
engineering is something youshould consider.
I'll tell you a funny story,though.
Just a week ago we had a highschool student come to me and he
(03:03):
had heard this story John's anengineer, he knows math, and he
was struggling with this problemin calculus and his dad said
well, you know, john's anengineer, he can help you.
So he brings me this problemand it's something like there's
a curve with an equation of blah, blah, blah.
Now, at x equals 5, is thetangent line increasing or
(03:24):
decreasing?
I'm looking at the paper.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I'm looking at the kid.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I'm like dude, this is serious, let's pray.
So apparently I used to be goodat math, but it was enough to
get me confident to go intoengineering and dad had made it
pretty clear when you're 18, thegravy train is over, so you
better figure something out.
So I went to school to be anengineer.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Now, speaking of dad.
He was an engineer and hedefinitely had an engineering
mind.
There were always things aroundthe house that you know
reflective of his engineeringcapacity.
So blankets in the hallways tokeep heat in a certain portion
of the house, much to mom'schagrin of course, yes, yes,
(04:14):
very aesthetically pleasing yeah.
But I'm just curious.
I don't think I've ever talkedto you about this, but was dad's
career choice influential foryou?
Did you guys talk about that atall?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm sure he was influential.
He had to be.
The interesting thing is Inever remember having that
conversation with him.
I don't ever remember himsitting down or pressuring, and
I for sure I was a compliant kid, opposite from some of my older
(04:53):
brothers, and so there wasprobably a sense of knowing that
dad would really think it wascool if I went into engineering
and we did love doing projectstogether, but I really felt
intimidated by him.
He knew everything abouteverything and I would say to
this day I know he is a bettertechnologist than I am.
(05:15):
He just had such an amazing mindwith those kinds of things.
But you know, I got into it, Imade my way, and one of the
things that, um, that I rememberabout him is we were sitting at
breakfast one day and, uh, helooks at me and he's like, yeah,
I think you'd be perfect.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
(05:38):
It's like, well, I'm working ona project at work and, and, um,
dad was a, uh, an engineer inthe x-ray industry and he was
working on a machine that wouldput people on a seat that was
going to pivot and rotate so thedoctor could get just the right
angle.
And, uh, he wanted to, um, trythat out on a smaller frame
(06:01):
person, and so, if somebody ofmy size and stature, he'd had
different people of differentsizes come in, and so I got to
go with dad to the office andride his x-ray machine, and so,
whether he was really trying tobe a good engineer and design
just the right machine that tookcare of everybody, or it was
part of his plot to suck me in.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I'm not sure.
Well, you were kind of his lasthope.
Yes, he did talk to suck me in.
I'm not sure.
Well, you were kind of his lasthope.
Yes, I still, he did talk to meabout engineering, which.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I was obviously learned after trying to
influence all of you, he'd takea softer approach with me.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, it was not going well for him so, but
thankfully you came through, yes, okay.
So, speaking about engineering,when you think about your role,
I mean cause you've done it fora long time.
You've been in engineering fromlike your high school days on,
and even lived in New Zealanddoing some things there and I'm
(07:00):
just curious, as you look backon your career, what has been
like the most enjoyable part ofbeing an engineer?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, I think.
Ultimately I find it a pure andfulfilling role.
And so when you think aboutengineering, yeah, it's about
math, it's about technology, butto be a good engineer, you have
to be a problem solver.
It's about technology, but tobe a good engineer, you have to
be a problem solver.
And at a certain point in mycareer I learned that, even
(07:37):
though a lot of us go intoengineering because we like
problems and we like machinesand people are kind of difficult
, at a certain point I realizedit's always about people.
It's always about understandingwhat people need and developing
solutions that serve them.
And so, whether you'redesigning a new machine, what do
your customers need?
What are they trying to do withthis machine?
And so there's a certain purityto it.
(08:00):
You are really trying to engageand solve problems.
And there's variety, right, likethere's always a new problem.
You know, I thought about roleswhere you're going in and
you're doing the same kind ofthing week after week.
In engineering I had anopportunity just to apply myself
to a lot of different problemsand different industries and
(08:24):
different solutions that wereneeded, and so I found it
intellectually engaging.
So, that, for sure, was thehighlight and what I've
continued to enjoy now for for40 years in that, in that field,
that's great.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And the opposite question what's the most
difficult part?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Those dang people opposite question what's the
most difficult part?
Those dang people?
No, I mean, I uh, you were kindenough to send me these these
questions in advance.
And then I did ponder it and,honestly, when I look back, the
lowest points of my career, um,where where I got on the wrong
side of an organization and whenI say organization, that's
(09:04):
maybe a self-defense way to saypeople, I got on the wrong side
of people and I think forengineers, we do tend to see
things as kind of black andwhite.
There's better and worse,there's right and wrong ways to
go after.
And when I look back on mycareer the times that I dug in,
(09:26):
you know, and I said, no, thisis right and we have to do this
I did so at the expense ofpeople and people who had
different opinions, and I didn'tdo it in as respectful a way as
I should, and maybe I won abattle and, in the end, lost a
war.
And so those are hard lessons tolearn.
(09:48):
I still wonder some days ifI've truly learned it, but it's
the reality.
You may see things in adifferent way, you may see
things as right and wrong, butthere are gray and there are
people in between.
And really making sure that younavigate that well and listen
well, well, I would say that, asI've observed you over the
(10:12):
years, I see the same in my sontoo.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
He's very much a math engineer, technology-oriented
person, but he's also quite goodwith people and that
combination is not always umcommon.
You know, it's a rarecombination actually, and and
I've always thought that youwere great with people, your
humor and your capacity to uhkind of make light of the
(10:37):
situation.
So it surprises me a little bitto say.
But again, you know, like yousaid, sometimes when you're in
the the work a day world and youhave a problem that you're
trying to solve and you'rethinking like I know the
solution to this problem justlisten to me
Speaker 2 (10:54):
that can be tough, yeah, and, and ultimately it
comes down to pride, right, yeah, you, you get your yourself in
there and you want to prove thatyou're right and yeah, usually
backfired.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
The voice of experience.
Okay, so now I want to shiftgears a little bit, because
there is another part of yourlife that you're also very
involved with, which is yourchurch, involved with which is
your church.
We are very blessed in that wehave a family that is, by and
(11:36):
large, very involved with church, takes our faith seriously, and
so, even though you live in theworkaday world of engineering,
you're also an elder at yourchurch.
You and your wife teach aSunday school class, and you
even sub in and preachoccasionally for your pastor
when he's on vacation, and Ihave a couple questions related
to that.
The first is what is it like tomarry those two parts of your
(11:59):
world?
Because on the surface it mightlook very different.
Engineering is all about thefacts, the figures, the
technology, and church is muchmore, you might say, a soft
science of learning how tocommunicate, express things in a
way that's compelling andmoving, and those two things
(12:19):
don't always go together well.
So I'm curious just how haveyou navigated that?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Well, it's interesting and when I think
back to what prompted me, whatled me to be an elder, and,
honestly, when I think about itand think about the experience
and how I landed where I havetoday, you actually had a much
bigger impact on that than youmay appreciate and you grew up
(12:49):
in a family.
There's two pastors and, ofcourse, as we grew in our
careers, we would get togetheron reunions and I would see the
impact of being a pastor on mybrother right, like a real guy
who puts on his pants one leg ata time.
you know and the demands thatyou were under and I thought,
(13:10):
man, I definitely took the easyroad in being an engineer.
I can't imagine a moredifficult vocation where every
day you've got a congregationfull of Siskel and Eberts giving
you you know, did all righttoday, but you know, hopefully
all right today, but you know,hopefully next week will be
better.
And you know it's and thedemands in terms of leadership
(13:34):
and what people expect of you inthat role.
And at a certain point I sawthe pastor at the church where
Wendy and I attend just goingthrough a really difficult time
and at the time we didn't haveelders, we didn't have those
kinds of roles.
But I just went to him one dayand basically said I want to be
your friend.
I see the pressure that you'reunder and the challenges that
(13:57):
you face, and if I can be alistening ear, if I can be a
support, if I can be anencouragement to you, I'd love
to be able to do that.
And at the end of the day, I dothink church at its best is a
team sport.
You know where anyone you knowwith a singular perspective
trying to lead a congregation.
(14:18):
It's hard and you need soundingboards and you need people who
have your back and have anopportunity to talk through
things and to share differentperspectives.
And you know you've met kent,yeah you know, he's very
different from me, we have verydifferent styles, um, but we
complement each other well and,and so that's been an
(14:40):
encouragement, and I think tohim and for sure to me, when it
comes to engineering and howthat plays into it, I just think
, ultimately it's the same, it'sproblem solving.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
You come across challenges, and so you put that
issue on the table and you praytogether, you consider God's
word, you try to figure out thebest, best way to move forward,
and and so I've enjoyed that um,that capacity, and I I love it
that, that purest element ofengineering being about serving
(15:20):
people, and clearly that's whatwe do in the church to love
God's people and to express hisword and share with the world
his love.
And so big problems in our world.
I only know of one answer, andso that's a big problem solving.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, Well, one of the things I remember and you
might want to pull your mic backup a little bit.
It's kind of gotten down there,Got a little enthusiastic.
He did.
We're cheering.
But I remember one of thethings I enjoyed, especially
later in life with dad, was thatwhen I would talk to him about
the issues that I was dealingwith in the church, when I would
(16:05):
talk to him about the issuesthat I was dealing with in the
church, he would have such aunique perspective and I think
it was a product of hisproblem-solving mind where he
could look at a problem from atotally different standpoint
than I did, and I would relishthose calls because he would.
I can't think of the number oftimes when, after a call, I
(16:26):
would tell Carol I never thoughtabout it that way.
I never saw the problem throughthat lens and it was such a gift
.
So I am sure that you'reproviding that same for your
pastor and I'm also curious from, because sometimes I'll sit
around with people who are otherministers and other pastor
(16:47):
types and we'll talk aboutwhat's happening in the church,
and so it's also a greatinterest to me to talk to people
who are active in the churchbut also kind of their regular
assignment is to sit in thequote-unquote pew just to take
in the experience and to be partof the experience obviously.
(17:10):
But I'm curious, as a personwho's not a professional what is
your sense about what'shappening in the church?
Because sometimes when you lookat statistics and you look at
what's happening and itcertainly seems that in the
culture there is a decline ofinterest in the church.
Attendance is going down inmany, many churches and many
(17:34):
denominations, people seeminglyincreasingly skeptical of
leaders in the church.
You hear about scandals leftand right and as a result, I
think that and this is trueabout many of the institutions
in our culture that respect forthe church, so to speak, has
(17:55):
gone down and I'm curious whatyour opinion of that is.
What do you see?
How do you assess?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I do think it's an incredibly
challenging time for the churchin our culture today.
And you know, when we grew up,church had a positive image in
culture and society.
It was the place where thedo-gooders went right.
(18:25):
Like it had a very positiveconnotation in culture.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Like if you went into a job interview and said, yeah,
I go to church, that was likeoh, okay, a moral good person?
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, and when you look in our world today, you
know it has literally flipped180 degrees.
That in the view of thisculture today, you know we and
challenge what diversity and aninclusive culture looks like,
(19:16):
and so that's a relatively shortperiod of time.
You know within our lifetimesthat that has happened and I
think the church has reallystruggled to find its voice in
that new cultural norm.
And I think there have beengenerally two responses.
Either we as a church have saidno, we want to do good, we want
(19:42):
to be inclusive, and so we havetried to figure out how to love
in that context, but in theprocess we've given up some
things about our righteousnessand about what God teaches about
being righteous, and that has,in the end, resulted in a faith
(20:02):
that's not really a faithanymore, and I think that's been
challenging for some churches.
And then, after you're in thatfor a while, you're like well,
what is this about?
Like, what do we stand for?
This doesn't really feel anydifferent than anything else,
and are we really helping people?
I think another piece of thechurch has gone sort of the
(20:25):
other way and said well, no,like these things are critically
important and we've treatedpeople who have different
thoughts, as now, they're theenemy, you know, they're our
opposition and we've forgottenhow to love.
And Romans 3.23, you know, forwe all have sinned and fall
short of the glory of God, andwe've created these different
(20:47):
classifications of sin Like.
I'll sin on this and this, butat least I'm not sinning like
that and so we've becomejudgmental and, in many ways,
the very thing that the worldwould say and what culture would
say about us, would say aboutus.
(21:10):
And so I think, you know, thegreatest challenge that we face
today is refinding our voice ina way that expresses the
absolute, amazing love of God,in a way that is true to his
word and true to the holy God weserve.
And finding that language,finding that voice with
integrity and genuine love forpeople, I think has been a huge
(21:31):
challenge.
And I think that narrow stripbetween, that landing strip,
between the two is so narrow.
And I think we often veer to theleft and right and we rely on
our own wisdom and our own bestthoughts, and I think God's got
to move, you know, to move us tothat, that right message and
(21:51):
that, um, that love of people,and yeah, I I couldn't agree
with you more.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I I do feel like we have, uh, and I think part,
maybe there's a third option.
You only have the one extremethat's kind of gone, like who
cares what people think of us,we are going to be the righteous
few, and the other who's like,well, we have to be, you know,
speaking to the culture, so weadopt the ways of the culture.
(22:16):
You know, you have those twoextremes and I think there's
another, a third option, whichis that people just give up on
it, just to say you know, let'sscrew this, it's just not, it's
trying, I'm going to do my ownthing, I'll have maybe my small
group of people that I relate toand engage with, but basically
giving up on the quote-unquoteinstitutional church, and I'm
(22:39):
not sure that's the right answereither.
I think the church probablylooks different in the years to
come and we need to beexperimenting with different
modes and models, which is notusually the church's strong suit
experimenting and and andentrepreneuring.
But I think I think we need tobe proactive and and stay
(23:04):
diligent on it, because themessage is too important to give
up on.
It still changes lives and wehave to figure out a way to do
that.
All right, changing focus again.
Thank you for that.
I really appreciate yourperspective.
You're also a family man.
You have five kids I do and Ithink they are each amazing.
(23:28):
I know that you and Wendy dotoo.
You're great parents and whenyou look at your children and
they're all doing well andthey're all making their own
unique mark on the world.
All five of them are verydifferent and they're doing
their best, I'm sure.
And I'm just curious, lookingback on your parenting journey,
(23:54):
what are some of the things thatyou have tried to do to
communicate love and the gospeland the faith and all those
things that good parents try anddo for their kids?
What have you found to be someof the keys in that journey?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, Well, I think it always looks better from the
outside looking in than maybefrom the inside looking out,
we're a normal family and I lovemy kids and they are all
treasures to Wendy and I.
But we certainly had our rockyroads going through life and a
(24:36):
lot of trial and error and a lotof things.
I think it would be far easierfor me to write a book on things
not to do as a parent than thethings to do as a parent.
But you know, if I try to take abig step back and say what are
the things that I think we didwell and I think we did love our
kids well, whatever that lookedlike and loving I think in
(25:01):
general comes pretty easy forWendy and I it's the way we're
wired and we had a genuine lovefor our kids that I think they
maybe in the moment didn'talways know and feel.
But as a child growing up inour family, I know each one
knows that they were genuinelyloved and how we did that, I
(25:24):
think, was just being present.
You know that issue of time.
You know we spent a lot of timewith our kids and we in those
seasons of life, you know wellwhat do you do, what's your
hobbies?
My hobby is going to my kid'ssoccer game.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
What's a hobby?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
It becomes the focus of your life through those years
when you're an active and youngfamily and we really did try to
just show up and spend timewith our kids.
I can remember sitting in aDonuts for Dad, muffins for Mom,
donuts for Dad and I was with Ithink it was Mary with, I think
(26:07):
it was Mary and we were sittingat the table and she was just
telling me a story about schoolor something or friends, and I
was just intent listening to herand at a certain point a
teacher came over and said I'vebeen watching you and your
daughter and she is so blessedand I'm like I'm here for donuts
and that Donuts are pretty good.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Just you know you give her your full attention.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, and you're and fully vested in her and I think,
um, that that has just typifiedour, our parenting and I, I
think, the love for the longhaul.
Um, you've got to figure outhow to forgive and you know we
have five kids and have a greatrelationship with all five of
(26:55):
them, but two of the five at onepoint left home with expletives
that we probably wouldn't sharein this podcast and some finger
gestures that probably wouldn'tmake the editing cut either.
They were hard, hard times.
And you know, to this day Ican't remember what it was about
(27:18):
and I think one of mysuperpowers is being forgetful.
I just I don't remember, youknow, but truly forgiving and
forgetting, and life is shortand you move on and recognizing
that they have, just as you see,others' situations and there's
just such loss, such heartache,and so I think you know learning
(27:57):
to forgive and to move on andreally build positive
relationships for the long haul.
I think one of the things that Iam still learning is how I show
up for my kids.
I would say one of the lessonsthat's the hardest.
I heard it quite a while agonow and I still struggle with it
(28:20):
, but it's so.
We all tend to love our kids.
The way that that is ourstrength is the that that we
would choose to show up insituations, and I think the real
challenge of being a parent isto show up in the moment, with
the child in the situation, inthe way that you need them to
show up.
Sometimes it will be, yeah, givethem a hug.
(28:41):
They need a hug, they need theencouragement.
Sometimes it's just honesty,you know speaking the truth and
being courageous enough to say.
You know speaking the truth andbeing courageous enough to say
you know, when you make thatdecision, this is what's going
to happen and you're going tohave to wear the consequences of
that.
And I tend to show up the way.
That is my strength to show up,and I think I'm at my best as a
(29:02):
parent when I take a biggerstep back and say what do they
need in this situation and howdo I show up best to help them
in this particular situation?
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, Well, one of the things I think we both
benefited from all the kids inour family, because there were
five of us in our immediatefamily too, and mom and dad, I
think one of the things they didreally well was to treat each
one of us as individuals, youknow they they had their
(29:33):
particular principles andpractices that I think were
consistent across the board, butthey were also really good at
honing in on who we were asindividuals and fanning the
flame of whatever gifting orpassion they saw in us.
And I've watched you do the samewith your kids because, the
(29:56):
same as our kids, your kids areall very different, have
different interests anddifferent strengths and
different opportunities thathave been presented.
And it seems to me, at leastlooking from afar, where you
were able to provide the contextfor them to flourish as whoever
they are, you know, giving themthe benefit of your experience
(30:17):
and your wisdom, but then alsogiving them permission to both
succeed in the ways they neededto succeed and then, if it meant
failure to, you know, notintervene too quickly but to let
them feel the consequences ofchoices.
And that's always a verydifficult road to manage when
you're a parent.
But I feel like just you guyshave done super well with that
(30:39):
and I think your kids are aproduct, a good product, of all
that.
So kudos.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
The real secret is just marry up.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
You did that too.
I did that too.
I did that too, I did as well.
Uh, speaking of which, I wantto end our conversation today
talking a little bit about, uh,your wife wendy.
Um, she was actually I justthought of this today.
She was in season one.
She was on the podcast when itwas mobile.
So I think we had aconversation at your home.
(31:13):
We set up a little camera andlights and had a conversation
with her, and this was early onin the challenge that she was
facing with her spine curvatureof her spine.
She was facing with her spinecurvature of her spine and she
was just beginning to receivesome treatments around that.
And in the years since then,things have gotten a little bit
(31:36):
more challenging.
She's now pretty much full timein a wheelchair and she's still
quite active.
She's helping me edit a bookright now.
So she is far from giving up onlife.
But I'm sure that it'spresented a unique set of
challenges for you in thisseason of your life.
And I'm just curious, you know,first of all, how are you guys
(32:01):
doing and how have you beennavigating this complexity?
Because, certainly, with Caroland our my journey with cancer,
you know, I see a lot ofparallels in terms of you know
that that really throws a wrenchinto the system and it takes
different skillset to tonavigate some of that.
(32:23):
So I know it's a tender topic,but I'm I'm curious if you'd be
free to share a little bit aboutthat journey, you know, I was
most excited about this question.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And I think part of the challenge is exactly where
you ended.
You know the other topics we'vetalked about.
It's sort of the retrospectiveright, and so you're kind of
looking back.
When we talk about this topic,it's obviously in the here and
now and still so much learningand certainly don't feel like
(33:00):
we're in any position to sharewisdom on how to navigate these
waters.
It's very raw, it's very real,it's very everyday, and when you
ask you know, what are thethings that help you in this
path?
And I was talking to Wendy,obviously, and talking to her
(33:23):
this morning on the ride,whatever time.
It was two in the morning whenI was going to the airport and I
said I don't know how I'm goingto answer this question with
Pete, and I said something toher and I said I don't know how
I'm going to answer thisquestion with Pete, and I said
something to her and I said Ithink I'm going to use that, and
so I am going to use that.
You know what helps us on thejourney?
It's everything and it'snothing.
(33:43):
And what do I mean by theeverything?
It's a day-to-day battle, and sosometimes it's that quiet time
that you've had where God justis so clear and so reminding of
you, of his love in thisparticular place.
It can be the encouragementfrom a friend, it could be the
(34:04):
recognition that you know,everybody is disabled in some
capacity.
It's just with, with Wendy, andwhere, where we are as a couple
, it's very obvious.
You see us on the roadside.
You know exactly what we're,what we're dealing with and
what's hard, but everybody umhas their disabilities and their
challenges that they face.
(34:24):
It's a.
It's a book that a friend givesof somebody who's, uh, dealt
with something similar and hasnavigated.
It's realizing that nobodychooses this, nobody thinks
(34:47):
they'll be in this position.
Who grows up thinking, well,that'll be me one day, that'll
be me in a wheelchair.
And nobody plans this, nobodyexpects this.
Everybody who's in thatsituation is having to deal and
having to make their way througha life that they didn't plan
and that they didn't think wasfair.
And so you process all of thesethings all the time.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Sometimes you'll get a pocket prayer when you thank
you, that's exactly the word Ineeded and so it's.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
It's all of those things and I say nothing because
you know it's a.
It's literally a battle thatdoesn't end and every day is a
new battle.
And Wendy's situation isprogressive and so as she deals
(35:42):
with pain and lack of mobility,you know there's sort of the
constancy of every day is a newday.
And you don't know exactly whatit's going to bring.
And so there's there's sort ofthat constancy that you know,
you, you recognize we'reprobably never going to lick
this in the way that you wouldthink about licking and problem
(36:06):
solving other things.
Dang, it's fixed like I figuredit out, we got to the right
doctor, we got this sorted out.
It's now fixed and so there's acertain constancy to it.
And I think for wendy uh, thehardship is that when she meets
people today they only know heras that lady in a wheelchair.
(36:27):
And so you know to to know her,to know her whole journey and
to be able to say I see you, Iknow who you were and I know who
you are, and to encourage herin that.
(36:48):
You know, we knew it would gothere, but she's the most
courageous person I know.
Oh my gosh she fights every dayand keeps a positive attitude.
And that blessing when youthink about what gets you
(37:09):
through her ability to becourageous and to show up every
day and to fight the fight thatshe has.
It's an amazing blessing ingetting through and her biggest
gift back to me in terms ofnumber of times that she picks
me up.
You're the quote-unquotecaretaker and she cares for me
(37:29):
because she loves me sherecognizes that it impacts both
of us, and she shows up withcourage every day to live the
best life that she can and notto let it overwhelm her.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
And so it's that it's day I apologize for the
emotions, but it's the realityof who I am.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
It's my birth defect and overactive emotional gland.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I don't know what it is, but know when I see her, you
know, on our reunions, and nowI'm relating to her a little
more often because of the bookthat we're working on together.
She is one of the mostcourageous people I know, and
the fact that she's able topress past her limitations and
(38:30):
continue to see life assomething worth living, not
giving up.
She volunteers at that clothingstore sorting things out I mean
it's just like who is thisperson?
If there's a person thatreflects the love of Christ and
(38:53):
the tenacity of living life towhatever full extent you can,
she is that.
And I totally, totally respecther for it.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
One of the things that happens when you deal with
something like this, and it's asobvious.
And when you deal withsomething like this, and it's as
obvious.
You know, we have obviouslyfaith-filled folks who will come
, and you know, it can happen ata restaurant, it can happen
anywhere, and they want to prayfor Wendy.
And they'll ask you know, hey,can I pray for you?
(39:28):
And saying no doesn't seem likea very good answer, so of,
course you say yes, of course.
And just as full of faith and asmuch love as they can conjure
up, they pray for her and tellher you're going to walk again.
I just know it.
You have to have faith and overtime that gets harder and
(39:53):
harder to hear.
And do.
I believe that God could causeWendy to walk again, Absolutely
with every fiber of my being,but he has not chosen to and I
don't think he's given us a lotof reason to hope that he will
(40:14):
heal her in that way, and sopart of what I internalize and
what has helped her in me is torecognize oh yeah, she will walk
again.
It may not be on this side.
I have this image ofchallenging her to a race on the
other side in heaven and havingher blow my doors off and just
(40:35):
running with glee.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
That's the hope.
Yeah, yeah, you know I've beenreflecting a bit on a book I
read a long time ago.
It was actually one of thefirst.
Like I was not a reader in highschool, it was a challenge to
move into any kind of academicrigor in college, and one of the
(41:00):
first books I ran across wasthe book by M Scott Peck, the
Road Less Traveled.
And in the first chapter of thatbook in fact it's the first
sentence of the first chapter hewrites life is difficult.
It's one of the great truths oflife, because once you accept
(41:20):
that life is difficult, it nolonger is, because it's what
you've come to understand aboutthe nature of life, which you
know.
I, on one hand, I love thatstatement.
On the other hand, I I resentit because I wish it weren't as
(41:41):
difficult as it is.
Um, but there's some truth therethat when, when you because I
think one of the things thatmakes it hard for all of us, no
matter where we are, is if wehave this expectation that life
is going to be easier or that wedeserve more why aren't you
intervening in a different way?
Oh God, then you're not onlydealing with whatever physical
(42:04):
challenge or emotional challengeyou're dealing with, but then
you're also dealing with theexpectation that's been dashed,
and then you're wrestling withGod about that.
So, if we can get to a placewhere we're like, okay, lord,
please help me manage thedifficulty of my life, that the
suffering will have someredemptive purpose, I want to
(42:24):
hold on until the other side andthen I'll be able to celebrate
all the goodness that I know iswaiting for me there.
That helps, that helps.
Well, you guys have been heroic, and thank you, john, for
taking some time in the midst ofyour quote unquote vacation and
(42:45):
spending some time with us hereon the podcast.
I'm so grateful and thank youfor joining us.
We'll see you again in a fewweeks and, yeah, have a blessed
holiday season.
Thank you for being here for the Clemson game.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Yes, Giving us an excuse to do this.
I am pleased to be here towatch this game.
Unfortunately, this will air,and so anything I say about them
winning may look pretty foolish.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
But we did bring the orange in just for you.
Well, thank you.
Did you notice that?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
That looks appropriately orange and not
that burnt stuff that you guystalk about down here.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Well, thank you for joining us for another episode
of Sidewalk Conversations.
I am delighted today to have mybrother in town.
He is actually here for theClemson Texas bowl game and it
was kind of a last minute deal.
We just decided, okay, let'ssee if we can't make this happen
.
And then, once he committed, Isaid, oh, and, by the way, how
(00:51):
about doing?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
an entrance fee that was not pre-disclosed?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yes, so I am delighted to introduce you to my
brother, John Koch.
John, thanks for being with uson the podcast today.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Really glad you came.
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I have a good friend, mary andher husband, who have started
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They take pride in providingethically sourced coffee beans,
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We'll put the website down belowin the notes and start your day
with a fresh cup of Stone Stash.
(01:51):
You'll be glad you did Allright, john, I want to dive
right in.
I want to start by saying okay,you come from a family of
pastors and people who are veryministry and then you decided
you're going to be an engineerand I'm just curious like did
(02:12):
you know that that was somethingthat you were going to do from
early on?
How did you get into thatcareer?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, no, it seemed the pastoral space was pretty
crowded.
If I wanted to do something,I'll tell you what it wasn't.
It wasn't a bolt of lightning.
Right Like John, thou shalt bean engineer.
I was no different than anyother 17 or 18-year-old Not a
(02:37):
clue.
Not a clue what I wanted to do,not a clue what adult work was
really like.
The one thing I did know isthat I seem to be pretty good at
math, and I heard hey, you know, if you're good at math,
engineering is something youshould consider.
I'll tell you a funny story,though.
Just a week ago we had a highschool student come to me and he
(03:03):
had heard this story John's anengineer, he knows math, and he
was struggling with this problemin calculus and his dad said
well, you know, john's anengineer, he can help you.
So he brings me this problemand it's something like there's
a curve with an equation of blah, blah, blah.
Now, at x equals 5, is thetangent line increasing or
(03:24):
decreasing?
I'm looking at the paper.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I'm looking at the kid.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I'm like dude, this is serious, let's pray.
So apparently I used to be goodat math, but it was enough to
get me confident to go intoengineering and dad had made it
pretty clear when you're 18, thegravy train is over, so you
better figure something out.
So I went to school to be anengineer.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Now, speaking of dad.
He was an engineer and hedefinitely had an engineering
mind.
There were always things aroundthe house that you know
reflective of his engineeringcapacity.
So blankets in the hallways tokeep heat in a certain portion
of the house, much to mom'schagrin of course, yes, yes,
(04:14):
very aesthetically pleasing yeah.
But I'm just curious.
I don't think I've ever talkedto you about this, but was dad's
career choice influential foryou?
Did you guys talk about that atall?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm sure he was influential.
He had to be.
The interesting thing is Inever remember having that
conversation with him.
I don't ever remember himsitting down or pressuring, and
I for sure I was a compliant kid, opposite from some of my older
(04:53):
brothers, and so there wasprobably a sense of knowing that
dad would really think it wascool if I went into engineering
and we did love doing projectstogether, but I really felt
intimidated by him.
He knew everything abouteverything and I would say to
this day I know he is a bettertechnologist than I am.
(05:15):
He just had such an amazing mindwith those kinds of things.
But you know, I got into it, Imade my way, and one of the
things that, um, that I rememberabout him is we were sitting at
breakfast one day and, uh, helooks at me and he's like, yeah,
I think you'd be perfect.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
(05:38):
It's like, well, I'm working ona project at work and, and, um,
dad was a, uh, an engineer inthe x-ray industry and he was
working on a machine that wouldput people on a seat that was
going to pivot and rotate so thedoctor could get just the right
angle.
And, uh, he wanted to, um, trythat out on a smaller frame
(06:01):
person, and so, if somebody ofmy size and stature, he'd had
different people of differentsizes come in, and so I got to
go with dad to the office andride his x-ray machine, and so,
whether he was really trying tobe a good engineer and design
just the right machine that tookcare of everybody, or it was
part of his plot to suck me in.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I'm not sure.
Well, you were kind of his lasthope.
Yes, he did talk to suck me in.
I'm not sure.
Well, you were kind of his lasthope.
Yes, I still, he did talk to meabout engineering, which.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I was obviously learned after trying to
influence all of you, he'd takea softer approach with me.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, it was not going well for him so, but
thankfully you came through, yes, okay.
So, speaking about engineering,when you think about your role,
I mean cause you've done it fora long time.
You've been in engineering fromlike your high school days on,
and even lived in New Zealanddoing some things there and I'm
(07:00):
just curious, as you look backon your career, what has been
like the most enjoyable part ofbeing an engineer?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, I think.
Ultimately I find it a pure andfulfilling role.
And so when you think aboutengineering, yeah, it's about
math, it's about technology, butto be a good engineer, you have
to be a problem solver.
It's about technology, but tobe a good engineer, you have to
be a problem solver.
And at a certain point in mycareer I learned that, even
(07:37):
though a lot of us go intoengineering because we like
problems and we like machinesand people are kind of difficult
, at a certain point I realizedit's always about people.
It's always about understandingwhat people need and developing
solutions that serve them.
And so, whether you'redesigning a new machine, what do
your customers need?
What are they trying to do withthis machine?
And so there's a certain purityto it.
(08:00):
You are really trying to engageand solve problems.
And there's variety, right, likethere's always a new problem.
You know, I thought about roleswhere you're going in and
you're doing the same kind ofthing week after week.
In engineering I had anopportunity just to apply myself
to a lot of different problemsand different industries and
(08:24):
different solutions that wereneeded, and so I found it
intellectually engaging.
So, that, for sure, was thehighlight and what I've
continued to enjoy now for for40 years in that, in that field,
that's great.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And the opposite question what's the most
difficult part?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Those dang people opposite question what's the
most difficult part?
Those dang people?
No, I mean, I uh, you were kindenough to send me these these
questions in advance.
And then I did ponder it and,honestly, when I look back, the
lowest points of my career, um,where where I got on the wrong
side of an organization and whenI say organization, that's
(09:04):
maybe a self-defense way to saypeople, I got on the wrong side
of people and I think forengineers, we do tend to see
things as kind of black andwhite.
There's better and worse,there's right and wrong ways to
go after.
And when I look back on mycareer the times that I dug in,
(09:26):
you know, and I said, no, thisis right and we have to do this
I did so at the expense ofpeople and people who had
different opinions, and I didn'tdo it in as respectful a way as
I should, and maybe I won abattle and, in the end, lost a
war.
And so those are hard lessons tolearn.
(09:48):
I still wonder some days ifI've truly learned it, but it's
the reality.
You may see things in adifferent way, you may see
things as right and wrong, butthere are gray and there are
people in between.
And really making sure that younavigate that well and listen
well, well, I would say that, asI've observed you over the
(10:12):
years, I see the same in my sontoo.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
He's very much a math engineer, technology-oriented
person, but he's also quite goodwith people and that
combination is not always umcommon.
You know, it's a rarecombination actually, and and
I've always thought that youwere great with people, your
humor and your capacity to uhkind of make light of the
(10:37):
situation.
So it surprises me a little bitto say.
But again, you know, like yousaid, sometimes when you're in
the the work a day world and youhave a problem that you're
trying to solve and you'rethinking like I know the
solution to this problem justlisten to me
Speaker 2 (10:54):
that can be tough, yeah, and, and ultimately it
comes down to pride, right, yeah, you, you get your yourself in
there and you want to prove thatyou're right and yeah, usually
backfired.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
The voice of experience.
Okay, so now I want to shiftgears a little bit, because
there is another part of yourlife that you're also very
involved with, which is yourchurch, involved with which is
your church.
We are very blessed in that wehave a family that is, by and
(11:36):
large, very involved with church, takes our faith seriously, and
so, even though you live in theworkaday world of engineering,
you're also an elder at yourchurch.
You and your wife teach aSunday school class, and you
even sub in and preachoccasionally for your pastor
when he's on vacation, and Ihave a couple questions related
to that.
The first is what is it like tomarry those two parts of your
(11:59):
world?
Because on the surface it mightlook very different.
Engineering is all about thefacts, the figures, the
technology, and church is muchmore, you might say, a soft
science of learning how tocommunicate, express things in a
way that's compelling andmoving, and those two things
(12:19):
don't always go together well.
So I'm curious just how haveyou navigated that?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Well, it's interesting and when I think
back to what prompted me, whatled me to be an elder, and,
honestly, when I think about itand think about the experience
and how I landed where I havetoday, you actually had a much
bigger impact on that than youmay appreciate and you grew up
(12:49):
in a family.
There's two pastors and, ofcourse, as we grew in our
careers, we would get togetheron reunions and I would see the
impact of being a pastor on mybrother right, like a real guy
who puts on his pants one leg ata time.
you know and the demands thatyou were under and I thought,
(13:10):
man, I definitely took the easyroad in being an engineer.
I can't imagine a moredifficult vocation where every
day you've got a congregationfull of Siskel and Eberts giving
you you know, did all righttoday, but you know, hopefully
all right today, but you know,hopefully next week will be
better.
And you know it's and thedemands in terms of leadership
(13:34):
and what people expect of you inthat role.
And at a certain point I sawthe pastor at the church where
Wendy and I attend just goingthrough a really difficult time
and at the time we didn't haveelders, we didn't have those
kinds of roles.
But I just went to him one dayand basically said I want to be
your friend.
I see the pressure that you'reunder and the challenges that
(13:57):
you face, and if I can be alistening ear, if I can be a
support, if I can be anencouragement to you, I'd love
to be able to do that.
And at the end of the day, I dothink church at its best is a
team sport.
You know where anyone you knowwith a singular perspective
trying to lead a congregation.
(14:18):
It's hard and you need soundingboards and you need people who
have your back and have anopportunity to talk through
things and to share differentperspectives.
And you know you've met kent,yeah you know, he's very
different from me, we have verydifferent styles, um, but we
complement each other well and,and so that's been an
(14:40):
encouragement, and I think tohim and for sure to me, when it
comes to engineering and howthat plays into it, I just think
, ultimately it's the same, it'sproblem solving.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
You come across challenges, and so you put that
issue on the table and you praytogether, you consider God's
word, you try to figure out thebest, best way to move forward,
and and so I've enjoyed that um,that capacity, and I I love it
that, that purest element ofengineering being about serving
(15:20):
people, and clearly that's whatwe do in the church to love
God's people and to express hisword and share with the world
his love.
And so big problems in our world.
I only know of one answer, andso that's a big problem solving.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, Well, one of the things I remember and you
might want to pull your mic backup a little bit.
It's kind of gotten down there,Got a little enthusiastic.
He did.
We're cheering.
But I remember one of thethings I enjoyed, especially
later in life with dad, was thatwhen I would talk to him about
the issues that I was dealingwith in the church, when I would
(16:05):
talk to him about the issuesthat I was dealing with in the
church, he would have such aunique perspective and I think
it was a product of hisproblem-solving mind where he
could look at a problem from atotally different standpoint
than I did, and I would relishthose calls because he would.
I can't think of the number oftimes when, after a call, I
(16:26):
would tell Carol I never thoughtabout it that way.
I never saw the problem throughthat lens and it was such a gift
.
So I am sure that you'reproviding that same for your
pastor and I'm also curious from, because sometimes I'll sit
around with people who are otherministers and other pastor
(16:47):
types and we'll talk aboutwhat's happening in the church,
and so it's also a greatinterest to me to talk to people
who are active in the churchbut also kind of their regular
assignment is to sit in thequote-unquote pew just to take
in the experience and to be partof the experience obviously.
(17:10):
But I'm curious, as a personwho's not a professional what is
your sense about what'shappening in the church?
Because sometimes when you lookat statistics and you look at
what's happening and itcertainly seems that in the
culture there is a decline ofinterest in the church.
Attendance is going down inmany, many churches and many
(17:34):
denominations, people seeminglyincreasingly skeptical of
leaders in the church.
You hear about scandals leftand right and as a result, I
think that and this is trueabout many of the institutions
in our culture that respect forthe church, so to speak, has
(17:55):
gone down and I'm curious whatyour opinion of that is.
What do you see?
How do you assess?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I do think it's an incredibly
challenging time for the churchin our culture today.
And you know, when we grew up,church had a positive image in
culture and society.
It was the place where thedo-gooders went right.
(18:25):
Like it had a very positiveconnotation in culture.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Like if you went into a job interview and said, yeah,
I go to church, that was likeoh, okay, a moral good person?
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, and when you look in our world today, you
know it has literally flipped180 degrees.
That in the view of thisculture today, you know we and
challenge what diversity and aninclusive culture looks like,
(19:16):
and so that's a relatively shortperiod of time.
You know within our lifetimesthat that has happened and I
think the church has reallystruggled to find its voice in
that new cultural norm.
And I think there have beengenerally two responses.
Either we as a church have saidno, we want to do good, we want
(19:42):
to be inclusive, and so we havetried to figure out how to love
in that context, but in theprocess we've given up some
things about our righteousnessand about what God teaches about
being righteous, and that has,in the end, resulted in a faith
(20:02):
that's not really a faithanymore, and I think that's been
challenging for some churches.
And then, after you're in thatfor a while, you're like well,
what is this about?
Like, what do we stand for?
This doesn't really feel anydifferent than anything else,
and are we really helping people?
I think another piece of thechurch has gone sort of the
(20:25):
other way and said well, no,like these things are critically
important and we've treatedpeople who have different
thoughts, as now, they're theenemy, you know, they're our
opposition and we've forgottenhow to love.
And Romans 3.23, you know, forwe all have sinned and fall
short of the glory of God, andwe've created these different
(20:47):
classifications of sin Like.
I'll sin on this and this, butat least I'm not sinning like
that and so we've becomejudgmental and, in many ways,
the very thing that the worldwould say and what culture would
say about us, would say aboutus.
(21:10):
And so I think, you know, thegreatest challenge that we face
today is refinding our voice ina way that expresses the
absolute, amazing love of God,in a way that is true to his
word and true to the holy God weserve.
And finding that language,finding that voice with
integrity and genuine love forpeople, I think has been a huge
(21:31):
challenge.
And I think that narrow stripbetween, that landing strip,
between the two is so narrow.
And I think we often veer to theleft and right and we rely on
our own wisdom and our own bestthoughts, and I think God's got
to move, you know, to move us tothat, that right message and
(21:51):
that, um, that love of people,and yeah, I I couldn't agree
with you more.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I I do feel like we have, uh, and I think part,
maybe there's a third option.
You only have the one extremethat's kind of gone, like who
cares what people think of us,we are going to be the righteous
few, and the other who's like,well, we have to be, you know,
speaking to the culture, so weadopt the ways of the culture.
(22:16):
You know, you have those twoextremes and I think there's
another, a third option, whichis that people just give up on
it, just to say you know, let'sscrew this, it's just not, it's
trying, I'm going to do my ownthing, I'll have maybe my small
group of people that I relate toand engage with, but basically
giving up on the quote-unquoteinstitutional church, and I'm
(22:39):
not sure that's the right answereither.
I think the church probablylooks different in the years to
come and we need to beexperimenting with different
modes and models, which is notusually the church's strong suit
experimenting and and andentrepreneuring.
But I think I think we need tobe proactive and and stay
(23:04):
diligent on it, because themessage is too important to give
up on.
It still changes lives and wehave to figure out a way to do
that.
All right, changing focus again.
Thank you for that.
I really appreciate yourperspective.
You're also a family man.
You have five kids I do and Ithink they are each amazing.
(23:28):
I know that you and Wendy dotoo.
You're great parents and whenyou look at your children and
they're all doing well andthey're all making their own
unique mark on the world.
All five of them are verydifferent and they're doing
their best, I'm sure.
And I'm just curious, lookingback on your parenting journey,
(23:54):
what are some of the things thatyou have tried to do to
communicate love and the gospeland the faith and all those
things that good parents try anddo for their kids?
What have you found to be someof the keys in that journey?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, Well, I think it always looks better from the
outside looking in than maybefrom the inside looking out,
we're a normal family and I lovemy kids and they are all
treasures to Wendy and I.
But we certainly had our rockyroads going through life and a
(24:36):
lot of trial and error and a lotof things.
I think it would be far easierfor me to write a book on things
not to do as a parent than thethings to do as a parent.
But you know, if I try to take abig step back and say what are
the things that I think we didwell and I think we did love our
kids well, whatever that lookedlike and loving I think in
(25:01):
general comes pretty easy forWendy and I it's the way we're
wired and we had a genuine lovefor our kids that I think they
maybe in the moment didn'talways know and feel.
But as a child growing up inour family, I know each one
knows that they were genuinelyloved and how we did that, I
(25:24):
think, was just being present.
You know that issue of time.
You know we spent a lot of timewith our kids and we in those
seasons of life, you know wellwhat do you do, what's your
hobbies?
My hobby is going to my kid'ssoccer game.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
What's a hobby?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
It becomes the focus of your life through those years
when you're an active and youngfamily and we really did try to
just show up and spend timewith our kids.
I can remember sitting in aDonuts for Dad, muffins for Mom,
donuts for Dad and I was with Ithink it was Mary with, I think
(26:07):
it was Mary and we were sittingat the table and she was just
telling me a story about schoolor something or friends, and I
was just intent listening to herand at a certain point a
teacher came over and said I'vebeen watching you and your
daughter and she is so blessedand I'm like I'm here for donuts
and that Donuts are pretty good.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Just you know you give her your full attention.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, and you're and fully vested in her and I think,
um, that that has just typifiedour, our parenting and I, I
think, the love for the longhaul.
Um, you've got to figure outhow to forgive and you know we
have five kids and have a greatrelationship with all five of
(26:55):
them, but two of the five at onepoint left home with expletives
that we probably wouldn't sharein this podcast and some finger
gestures that probably wouldn'tmake the editing cut either.
They were hard, hard times.
And you know, to this day Ican't remember what it was about
(27:18):
and I think one of mysuperpowers is being forgetful.
I just I don't remember, youknow, but truly forgiving and
forgetting, and life is shortand you move on and recognizing
that they have, just as you see,others' situations and there's
just such loss, such heartache,and so I think you know learning
(27:57):
to forgive and to move on andreally build positive
relationships for the long haul.
I think one of the things that Iam still learning is how I show
up for my kids.
I would say one of the lessonsthat's the hardest.
I heard it quite a while agonow and I still struggle with it
(28:20):
, but it's so.
We all tend to love our kids.
The way that that is ourstrength is the that that we
would choose to show up insituations, and I think the real
challenge of being a parent isto show up in the moment, with
the child in the situation, inthe way that you need them to
show up.
Sometimes it will be, yeah, givethem a hug.
(28:41):
They need a hug, they need theencouragement.
Sometimes it's just honesty,you know speaking the truth and
being courageous enough to say.
You know speaking the truth andbeing courageous enough to say
you know, when you make thatdecision, this is what's going
to happen and you're going tohave to wear the consequences of
that.
And I tend to show up the way.
That is my strength to show up,and I think I'm at my best as a
(29:02):
parent when I take a biggerstep back and say what do they
need in this situation and howdo I show up best to help them
in this particular situation?
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, Well, one of the things I think we both
benefited from all the kids inour family, because there were
five of us in our immediatefamily too, and mom and dad, I
think one of the things they didreally well was to treat each
one of us as individuals, youknow they they had their
(29:33):
particular principles andpractices that I think were
consistent across the board, butthey were also really good at
honing in on who we were asindividuals and fanning the
flame of whatever gifting orpassion they saw in us.
And I've watched you do the samewith your kids because, the
(29:56):
same as our kids, your kids areall very different, have
different interests anddifferent strengths and
different opportunities thathave been presented.
And it seems to me, at leastlooking from afar, where you
were able to provide the contextfor them to flourish as whoever
they are, you know, giving themthe benefit of your experience
(30:17):
and your wisdom, but then alsogiving them permission to both
succeed in the ways they neededto succeed and then, if it meant
failure to, you know, notintervene too quickly but to let
them feel the consequences ofchoices.
And that's always a verydifficult road to manage when
you're a parent.
But I feel like just you guyshave done super well with that
(30:39):
and I think your kids are aproduct, a good product, of all
that.
So kudos.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
The real secret is just marry up.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
You did that too.
I did that too.
I did that too, I did as well.
Uh, speaking of which, I wantto end our conversation today
talking a little bit about, uh,your wife wendy.
Um, she was actually I justthought of this today.
She was in season one.
She was on the podcast when itwas mobile.
So I think we had aconversation at your home.
(31:13):
We set up a little camera andlights and had a conversation
with her, and this was early onin the challenge that she was
facing with her spine curvatureof her spine.
She was facing with her spinecurvature of her spine and she
was just beginning to receivesome treatments around that.
And in the years since then,things have gotten a little bit
(31:36):
more challenging.
She's now pretty much full timein a wheelchair and she's still
quite active.
She's helping me edit a bookright now.
So she is far from giving up onlife.
But I'm sure that it'spresented a unique set of
challenges for you in thisseason of your life.
And I'm just curious, you know,first of all, how are you guys
(32:01):
doing and how have you beennavigating this complexity?
Because, certainly, with Caroland our my journey with cancer,
you know, I see a lot ofparallels in terms of you know
that that really throws a wrenchinto the system and it takes
different skillset to tonavigate some of that.
(32:23):
So I know it's a tender topic,but I'm I'm curious if you'd be
free to share a little bit aboutthat journey, you know, I was
most excited about this question.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And I think part of the challenge is exactly where
you ended.
You know the other topics we'vetalked about.
It's sort of the retrospectiveright, and so you're kind of
looking back.
When we talk about this topic,it's obviously in the here and
now and still so much learningand certainly don't feel like
(33:00):
we're in any position to sharewisdom on how to navigate these
waters.
It's very raw, it's very real,it's very everyday, and when you
ask you know, what are thethings that help you in this
path?
And I was talking to Wendy,obviously, and talking to her
(33:23):
this morning on the ride,whatever time.
It was two in the morning whenI was going to the airport and I
said I don't know how I'm goingto answer this question with
Pete, and I said something toher and I said I don't know how
I'm going to answer thisquestion with Pete, and I said
something to her and I said Ithink I'm going to use that, and
so I am going to use that.
You know what helps us on thejourney?
It's everything and it'snothing.
(33:43):
And what do I mean by theeverything?
It's a day-to-day battle, and sosometimes it's that quiet time
that you've had where God justis so clear and so reminding of
you, of his love in thisparticular place.
It can be the encouragementfrom a friend, it could be the
(34:04):
recognition that you know,everybody is disabled in some
capacity.
It's just with, with Wendy, andwhere, where we are as a couple
, it's very obvious.
You see us on the roadside.
You know exactly what we're,what we're dealing with and
what's hard, but everybody umhas their disabilities and their
challenges that they face.
(34:24):
It's a.
It's a book that a friend givesof somebody who's, uh, dealt
with something similar and hasnavigated.
It's realizing that nobodychooses this, nobody thinks
(34:47):
they'll be in this position.
Who grows up thinking, well,that'll be me one day, that'll
be me in a wheelchair.
And nobody plans this, nobodyexpects this.
Everybody who's in thatsituation is having to deal and
having to make their way througha life that they didn't plan
and that they didn't think wasfair.
And so you process all of thesethings all the time.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Sometimes you'll get a pocket prayer when you thank
you, that's exactly the word Ineeded and so it's.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
It's all of those things and I say nothing because
you know it's a.
It's literally a battle thatdoesn't end and every day is a
new battle.
And Wendy's situation isprogressive and so as she deals
(35:42):
with pain and lack of mobility,you know there's sort of the
constancy of every day is a newday.
And you don't know exactly whatit's going to bring.
And so there's there's sort ofthat constancy that you know,
you, you recognize we'reprobably never going to lick
this in the way that you wouldthink about licking and problem
(36:06):
solving other things.
Dang, it's fixed like I figuredit out, we got to the right
doctor, we got this sorted out.
It's now fixed and so there's acertain constancy to it.
And I think for wendy uh, thehardship is that when she meets
people today they only know heras that lady in a wheelchair.
(36:27):
And so you know to to know her,to know her whole journey and
to be able to say I see you, Iknow who you were and I know who
you are, and to encourage herin that.
(36:48):
You know, we knew it would gothere, but she's the most
courageous person I know.
Oh my gosh she fights every dayand keeps a positive attitude.
And that blessing when youthink about what gets you
(37:09):
through her ability to becourageous and to show up every
day and to fight the fight thatshe has.
It's an amazing blessing ingetting through and her biggest
gift back to me in terms ofnumber of times that she picks
me up.
You're the quote-unquotecaretaker and she cares for me
(37:29):
because she loves me sherecognizes that it impacts both
of us, and she shows up withcourage every day to live the
best life that she can and notto let it overwhelm her.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
And so it's that it's day I apologize for the
emotions, but it's the realityof who I am.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
It's my birth defect and overactive emotional gland.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I don't know what it is, but know when I see her, you
know, on our reunions, and nowI'm relating to her a little
more often because of the bookthat we're working on together.
She is one of the mostcourageous people I know, and
the fact that she's able topress past her limitations and
(38:30):
continue to see life assomething worth living, not
giving up.
She volunteers at that clothingstore sorting things out I mean
it's just like who is thisperson?
If there's a person thatreflects the love of Christ and
(38:53):
the tenacity of living life towhatever full extent you can,
she is that.
And I totally, totally respecther for it.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
One of the things that happens when you deal with
something like this, and it's asobvious.
And when you deal withsomething like this, and it's as
obvious.
You know, we have obviouslyfaith-filled folks who will come
, and you know, it can happen ata restaurant, it can happen
anywhere, and they want to prayfor Wendy.
And they'll ask you know, hey,can I pray for you?
(39:28):
And saying no doesn't seem likea very good answer, so of,
course you say yes, of course.
And just as full of faith and asmuch love as they can conjure
up, they pray for her and tellher you're going to walk again.
I just know it.
You have to have faith and overtime that gets harder and
(39:53):
harder to hear.
And do.
I believe that God could causeWendy to walk again, Absolutely
with every fiber of my being,but he has not chosen to and I
don't think he's given us a lotof reason to hope that he will
(40:14):
heal her in that way, and sopart of what I internalize and
what has helped her in me is torecognize oh yeah, she will walk
again.
It may not be on this side.
I have this image ofchallenging her to a race on the
other side in heaven and havingher blow my doors off and just
(40:35):
running with glee.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
That's the hope.
Yeah, yeah, you know I've beenreflecting a bit on a book I
read a long time ago.
It was actually one of thefirst.
Like I was not a reader in highschool, it was a challenge to
move into any kind of academicrigor in college, and one of the
(41:00):
first books I ran across wasthe book by M Scott Peck, the
Road Less Traveled.
And in the first chapter of thatbook in fact it's the first
sentence of the first chapter hewrites life is difficult.
It's one of the great truths oflife, because once you accept
(41:20):
that life is difficult, it nolonger is, because it's what
you've come to understand aboutthe nature of life, which you
know.
I, on one hand, I love thatstatement.
On the other hand, I I resentit because I wish it weren't as
(41:41):
difficult as it is.
Um, but there's some truth therethat when, when you because I
think one of the things thatmakes it hard for all of us, no
matter where we are, is if wehave this expectation that life
is going to be easier or that wedeserve more why aren't you
intervening in a different way?
Oh God, then you're not onlydealing with whatever physical
(42:04):
challenge or emotional challengeyou're dealing with, but then
you're also dealing with theexpectation that's been dashed,
and then you're wrestling withGod about that.
So, if we can get to a placewhere we're like, okay, lord,
please help me manage thedifficulty of my life, that the
suffering will have someredemptive purpose, I want to
(42:24):
hold on until the other side andthen I'll be able to celebrate
all the goodness that I know iswaiting for me there.
That helps, that helps.
Well, you guys have been heroic, and thank you, john, for
taking some time in the midst ofyour quote unquote vacation and
(42:45):
spending some time with us hereon the podcast.
I'm so grateful and thank youfor joining us.
We'll see you again in a fewweeks and, yeah, have a blessed
holiday season.
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