Turning Trauma into Purpose with Crystal Rodenbaugh

In this powerful episode of the Sidewalk Conversations Podcast, we sit down with Crystal Rodenbaugh, owner and head counselor at Tenfold Counseling in Kansas City. Crystal opens up about her deeply personal journey through loss, resilience, and the pivotal moments that shaped her into the empathetic leader she is today. From growing up in the midst of family tragedy to helping others navigate trauma, Crystal shares insights into the transformative power of counseling and why understanding our stories can lead to true healing. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in mental health, personal growth, and finding hope in hard places.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Well, this is like, we are back in, this is the
first time in like, what, sixmonths that we've been doing
this?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, yeah. Since the Yeah . End of

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Last year. Yeah.
More than six months. Well, sonow we have this homemade thing
in the , in the house, but Ihad to do this because we have
this great friend coming in whoI'm about to introduce to you.
I am so glad, crystal , thankyou for being here on the
Sidewalk Conversations podcast.
I appreciate your being here.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Yes, I'm happy to be here. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
All right . Now, for those of you who may not know,
crystal , crystal is one ofthose people who is , um,
created quite the name forherself in the Kansas City
area. She is the head. Wouldyou call yourself the head
counselor and

Speaker 3 (00:59):
I mean Sure. Owner

Speaker 1 (01:01):
, owners of entrepreneur of Tenfold
Counseling. And so that's agroup of nine counselors, and
she started off as a soleproprietor and has built that
business and now has, I think,eight counselors and an intern.
Is that how it ,

Speaker 3 (01:16):
Uh, include Eight Includes the intern. So nine is
me included.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay. Yeah. Well , so I, I wanna , um, I think
that you have such aninteresting story. I wanna
start all the way back at thebeginning and I wanna start
with like your own story. Sokind of tell us a little bit
about like how you grew up,what your family was like. Give
us a little background there.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah. So going way back , um, my parents married
fairly young, and then a coupleyears after I was born, they
had my sister and she was bornwith an illness. And so then
our years, she lived for twoyears and it became a lot of
doctors, hospitals. Oh man .
Transplants. Um, and I was fourwhen she passed. And so I

(02:00):
didn't know anything of reallywhat was happening, but it did
create a split in the familywhere parents didn't really
know how to grieve, led to adivorce. And , um, wow . My mom
and I moved in with mygrandparents and so lived there
for the majority of mychildhood, childhood. And , um,
dad was in and out. And then wemoved in the midst of my

(02:26):
freshman year of high school,which was a little challenging.
I'll bet. And , um, but Ienjoyed playing sports growing
up as well, and that was reallyhelpful for me. And I was
connected in a church communityand that was also , um, helped
kept me grounded in , incommunity. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Okay. So then we met , uh, we were just talking
about this before we went on.
Um, I think we met when youwere in college, is that right?

Speaker 3 (02:52):
I think maybe later part of high school. Okay . And
then got to Yeah. Know betterin college.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah. 'cause you were part of this dance group
that did some somestuff at our church, ,

Speaker 3 (03:03):
That's a very loose term, .

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Oh , yeah. It was fun. And, and we, we connected
pretty quickly and , um, when Iheard your story, it was like
one of those things where Ifelt a prompting to, you know,
kind of be a mentor andencourager to you. And , uh,
it's just been really fun. Nowwe've known each other for 20
some odd years.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah. I'm just, what, how many days short of my
40th birthday . Yes .
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
So yeah, that's , uh, and it's been a real joy to
watch you , uh, develop andgrow. So thanks for sharing. I
mean, like, you went right tothe harder places and I'm just
grateful that you're willing todo that. I think as a council
you understand the value of ,of that too, I'm sure. So , um,
when you think about how yougrew up and the fact that

(03:52):
you're now trying to helppeople maybe with similar
challenges in their life or aspart of their story , um, how
do you feel like what youexperienced growing up shaped
who you are? And maybe even howdo you see it as , um, kind of
developing or fanning the flameof your present passion?

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, I think it , it just helped create empathy
and also helped me realize thatlike, people are incredibly
resilient. Mm-Hmm .
. And everyonehas a story and there are parts
of it that have trauma and aretragic. And when they do
something with that, IE processit or find people who pour into

(04:33):
them. Like they can use thatand turn it for good. And along
the way I discovered like, Iwanna be a part of that.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah. And which is, if I, I'm sorry to interrupt,
but I think that, you know,we've had this conversation
many times over the years, but, um, it's not as though that
that transition to being a partof the solution is automatic.
There are a lot of people whoend up because of their
heartache and tragedy growingup, they tend to repeat the

(05:01):
same cycle, evenunintentionally. Mm-Hmm .
. Um , so whenyou look at what it was that
kind of stirred in you to say,okay, I'm gonna allow this to
make me more empathetic. I wantto be part of the solution, I
want to help other people, whatwas it about you or your
environment , um, or maybe evendecisions you made that helped

(05:21):
facilitate that decision?
Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
, when I was in my twenties, I took
the StrengthsFinder assessmentand one of them that was top
was belief. And I think thatgave me the language to be able
to say that that's, I couldn'tdo it any different. Like I
think I tried for a very shortperiod and I , I couldn't even
do it. Like, it just felt soagainst who I was. Right. And I

(05:45):
feel like maybe that was,again, just God ingrained and
my faith was part of that. Andso I, I felt like just hearing
it in the StrengthsFinder gaveme that, the tool to
understand. Oh , I

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Love that. Yeah .
Well, and, and it's beensomething you've had in you
since, you know, like almostsince I've known you because
you had this , uh, passion incollege, then you went over to
the UK and Mm-Hmm .
helped , uh,develop a community center
there in an underprivilegedarea. Underserved area. Um, and
so this is not just , uh,something that you came up with

(06:20):
'cause it was a good idea incollege. , .
It's really been something coreto you. And I've, I've been
very impressed by it. Okay. Solet's, let's dive into that ,
uh, professional side. Um ,first of all, kind of explain
the kind of work that you doand the kind of team that you
lead. Do you have areas ofspecialty or kind of what's the
theme or emphasis of, of thework that you do with your

(06:43):
team?

Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah, so I got my master's in social work and
then became a licensed clinicalsocial worker. But I'm the only
LCSW on the team. All the restof everyone else is an LPC,
which is a licensedprofessional counselor, which
we essentially do the samething. It just was a different
track in school. Um, but we allalso have different
specialties. We have someoverlap, but it's trauma,

(07:05):
depression, grief, anxiety,life transitions, relational
challenges. Um, and so peoplereach out and have one of those
as a goal and then we talk themthrough create plans and help
them move towards what , wherethey want to be.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
And when you look at your work, I mean, how long
have you been doing it now?

Speaker 3 (07:26):
Um, since 2012,

Speaker 1 (07:31):
So 12 years. Years .

Speaker 3 (07:32):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Wow. Yeah. Okay. So a bit ,

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, I guess so

Speaker 1 (07:36):
. So when you look back at those 12 years ,
um, what's the most rewardingpart of this work for you?

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Um, I think it's like being in a room with
someone when things click, orhearing them excited to come
back and say like, look at whatI was able to do, accomplish,
understand process change. Andthey're excited to share that

(08:04):
with you and then often leadsto them graduating, if you
will, which is also kind ofsad. But , um, I think when you
first start seeing someone,they're low, typically. Yeah.
And then watching thetransformation take place and
just, it have ripple effectsinto every area of their life.
And just honestly being witnessto that and a part of that, it

(08:28):
feels sacred and it's, yeah.
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
And, and I know that's probably hard to
generalize in this way, but arethere some keys that you would
say are instrumental for peoplewho make some of those
transitions and have some ofthose aha moments where they're
like, they came in in a certainplace, but now they're seeing
some improvement? Is therethings that you say generally,

(08:54):
if a person is in this manneror this mindset, then they're
going to probably experience abreakthrough sooner than
others. Are there any keys likethat?

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Yeah, I think it's recognizing that, again,
typically I only see someonefor an hour a week and maybe
even an hour every other week.
And so it's, the majority ofthe work happens outside of the
office. And if they're notwilling to do that or see that,
yeah . Then it's gonna takethem much longer. And so it's
the willingness to put in thework. And then also there's

(09:25):
something I think about therelationship of, and it
happens, I think just in theroom, but we model healthy ,
um, in just our conversation.
And so I can , um, challengethem on something or I can give
them homework. And I think it'sa reflection of, oh, this is
how, you know, healthyrelationships or healthy

(09:47):
conversations or conflicts cango. And I think that's also
them being open to it, I thinkis important.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
So you can almost tell when, when people are
going there and getting there,just by the way they're
reacting to the things you're

Speaker 3 (09:59):
Saying . Uhhuh .
Yeah. And if people are stillhigh in denial or avoidance,
like typically they either fadeout pretty quickly and
sometimes they do circle backand you can tell they're in a
different place of readiness.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, butif they're not willing yet to
recognize how much work needsto go in, then it

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Takes Yeah. 'cause it is work. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
. Oh yeah , absolutely. If I had an easy
button, I'd be rich. .

Speaker 1 (10:23):
. Right, right. Okay. So now the, the
harder question , uh, what,what makes your role or or your
assignment difficult? What ,what are the parts that are not
as fun?

Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah. Um, I think it's the heaviness. Like , um,
knowing that I'm a place thatgets the hardest things that
people share, the most thingsthey often don't share with the
closest people around them. Andjust the things that people
have had to overcome andendure. And then the patterns
sometimes that they getthemselves in, it's just heavy.

(10:58):
Yeah. And it , you know,breakthroughs take time. Work
takes time. It's not a one anddone . And so like sitting in
that before you see progress isreally hard.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah. Yeah . And I'm guessing there's also those
situations where you, and I'msharing this 'cause I feel like
I've been in this place acouple of times in my life
where you're on the cusp of abreakthrough. You're just right
there and then you get scared.
Mm-Hmm . or youget intimidated or you don't
wanna face the hard thing, andso then you resist and you back

(11:31):
away. Mm-Hmm . ,um, having to watch that I'm
sure is not fun either,especially if you've made Yeah
. Such a big investment.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Well, and I think people too, like they, they
know chaos, right. They aregood at it because they've
lived it. And so then livingoutside of that feels more
risky too. Right. And so it'ssomething that's like, this is
a lot harder and more, I feelmore vulnerable and exposed and
, uh, I know that I can do thisover here. And so then that
will often, you know, come withbacksliding.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Well, that , that leads me to my next question.
Um, how , is there a way todraw out a reluctant
participant? Like, my guess isthere's some of your clients
who come like on their ownvolition, but then there may be
some who come because my wifetold me I had to be here, or my
parents said I needed to behere, or my boss got on my case

(12:22):
and said, I wouldn't get thepromotion unless I dealt with
my stuff. Um, which I'mguessing is not the best way to
come into therapy. Um, is therethings that you can do to draw
them out? Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
.
Yeah. I mean, I utilize humor.
Yes . And , I canimagine. Um, so that, that
feels like it, it shows myhumanity. Um, and that also, it
doesn't have to be all serious.
And then also I think it'sjust, if I feel resistance, I
create a space of just beinglike, we don't have to go to
the hard yet. Like just Mm-Hmm, , let me see

(12:57):
you like where you are now,what you enjoy, what you're
interested in. Let me hearabout silly stories or
ridiculous things. And thenonce rapport is built, then
they're more willing to gothere.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah. Yeah.
Especially if they feel seen byyou. Mm-Hmm . Yeah . Um , and
they know you don't have anagenda other than to be That's
right . Helpful to them. Yeah .
Um , and I , I think fromknowing you and having watched
you , that's something thatyou're really good at
communicating , uh, thatempathy we were talking about
earlier. I think people reallyfeel that from you. And then of
course your humor is so good.

(13:29):
. Um, okay. So I wannanow transition a little bit to
talk about your team. Um, andso from my experience, the
whole , uh, transition of like,I, I help people and this is my
area of expertise. So I'mhaving this conversation, I do
counseling, and maybe I have,you know, people that , uh, I

(13:53):
have a , you know, a specialaffinity with or I can help a
particular kind of problem. Butthen to transition to say,
okay, not only am I going to dothat, but I'm going to develop
a team of people who may haveother areas of specialty that
requires a whole notherskillset . It seems . And I'm
curious if you talk throughthat transition. 'cause my
guess is there are sometransferable principles here

(14:15):
where maybe there are peoplewho are listening who would
say, you know, I've, I've donesome things in this area, but I
would love to be able tomaximize my influence by
building a group or a team ofpeople around what we do so
that we can have greaterinfluence and impact. So I'm
curious, what was thattransition transition like for
you? And maybe what were someof the keys that made that ,

(14:38):
uh, as successful as it isright now for you?

Speaker 3 (14:41):
I think the first thing that comes to mind is it
was really scary at firstbecause I felt where when it
was just me, like I was incontrol of everything. And then
to think about adding onsomeone else, there was a new
layer of pressure and wantingthem to be happy with the ,
with the clients they werereceiving or just the
experience they were having.

(15:02):
And so that felt very riskybecause I couldn't control
those elements. Yeah. Like Icould do a lot of marketing and
hope that it would work, but atthe end of the day, it's like,
I don't, I don't really know . And so I think
pushing past those fears andrecognizing like, I can see it
and I really want this to cometo fruition. And then having
someone believe in what yourvision is and then being

(15:24):
willing to say if it takes alittle bit longer, like, I'm
willing to take the ride. Andthen yeah. Just finding similar
people like that.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
And so what did you do to find some of those folks?

Speaker 3 (15:33):
Well, it's interesting. All of the ones
who are with me currently foundme,

Speaker 1 (15:39):
Really.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
And so everyone that's on my team , um, was
either introduced to someoneand told they should talk to
me, or they reached out to medirectly and said, Hey, I'm
looking for something and Ireally like what I see, and
could we have a conversation?
And the only one that I met ,like, I put feelers out there
'cause I was looking, it didn'twork out, , .

(16:01):
And I was like, all right , youbuild it and they'll come. I
get it . I get it.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
And is there, are there some things that um,
that, that like clue you inthat you, you found a good team
member? Like are some , arethere some check marks in your
own mind where you say, oh,this person's gonna fit really
well and if so, what are they?

Speaker 3 (16:22):
It's hard to say with like a list because I, I
feel like in , I don't know ifthis is cliche, but I can feel
it. Um, and so I don't know ifit's an instinctual thing where
if it feels like they're tryingto impress me or trying to hit
on things that , um, may notseem as relevant or like

(16:44):
overreaching. Um , to me it'skind of a pink flag. Maybe not
a red flag, but, and then itjust kind of how the flow of
conversation goes , um, andyeah, I feel like comes for me,
it goes to instinct. Wow.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
And so that kind of , um, brings me to the question
of like professionalpreparation versus the , what
you call instinct, like naturalgifting. Um, do you put a , uh,
emphasis on one over the other?

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Well, I mean, I think both are needed. Yeah.
But I think kind of, we justlistened to IWiN McManus talk
and he talked about thefrequencies of communication. I
think it has something to dowith that where if someone, it
may not even be what they'resaying, if there's some sort of
sense that , that I'm pickingup on, then that for me is an
instinctual response of, oh , Idon't know if this will be a
good fit, or I, Hey, thisperson feels and seems really

(17:41):
great, and then wanting tocontinue the conversation.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
I , I remember in business school , um, one of
the things that they emphasizedover and over was to kind of
depersonalize the interview ,uh, process. Like, don't think
through the grid of, Hey, wouldthis be a person I could get
along with? Just look at theirresume, look at their gifting,
and see how they would fit intothe organization. And I, I

(18:06):
remember trying to operate thatway and , um, I always found
myself being less thansatisfied with the result. And
so I came up with this ideathat, you know, when you have a
sense of , um, community andyou have a sense of , uh,
affirmation of kind of likespirits, that that can be a

(18:27):
really powerful Mm-Hmm .
part of therelationship. And it actually
provides an , an easier way ofcommunication when you have
that affinity with , uh, thepersons that you're, that
you're working alongside. Didyou find that to be true

Speaker 3 (18:42):
As well ? Yes , absolutely. I feel like that
speaks to exactly what we'veexperienced.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah. So the people that you have affinity with and
who also have the

Speaker 3 (18:50):
Professional training Yeah. And they're
coming in, they've already gotthe degree or they're, you know
, in the licensing process. Andso that piece is there. And
then kind of just hearing howthey've dealt with difficult
clients, whether it's aninternship or just in their
early years, like I can kind ofhear, you know, if they're
willing to talk about what washard or mistakes or, you know,
ways they should have pivoted.

(19:10):
That's interesting to me. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
So now, now you have a group of nine , um, that's
different than a group of oneor two . So , um, I , I
remember when there were, youknow, seasons where I went
from, you know, a smaller groupof people, whether it was, you
know, in the church environmentor in a professional setting ,

(19:33):
um, making sure that yourvalues get communicated to that
larger circle. You know, itgets more complicated with each
individual you add to theequation. What are some of the
things that you've done to tryand ensure that the things that
you feel are important and theculture that you're wanting to
create is consistent across theboard with your various

(19:56):
colleagues?

Speaker 3 (19:57):
Yeah, I think early in our conversations, I always
express like what I envisionedtenfold counseling to be. And
just the environment of like, Idon't want counseling to feel
like you're going to doc to adoctor's office. Like, I want
it to feel like you're lookingforward to going, even though
it's hard. And when I expressthat in early conversations.
And then if they come on board, we do, we try to do monthly ,

(20:21):
um, team lunches, and then wealso do team consultation
meetings where we'll talk aboutthings that maybe or wins or,
Hey, can we need new booksuggestions or kind of stuck
here with the client orsomething. Um, and I feel like
that keeps the, the closenessof the team. And then I also do
personal check-ins with them aswell. Um , meet one-on-one with

(20:42):
them and see how they're beingimpacted. 'cause I know
burnout's a thing too. Yeah. Oh,

Speaker 1 (20:47):
For sure. Especially in that field, right?

Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah. And so kind of checking in with what's going
on with them personally and howthat affects where they show up
professionally. And , um, and Ialso like encourage them to
have friendships amongst eachother. Um, and so listening to
their stories about how theygot together with their
families or went to the parkwith their kids, and I think

(21:09):
that's really cool.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah. And do you, do you have like a value statement
where, you know, we, you and Iwere just sitting through this
conference fund , we heard allthese speakers talk about
values and standards andpurposes, and , um, do you have
a , a written statement likethat? Or do you have something
that you review on a regularbasis with your team to say,
Hey, here are the things thatwe're going to make sure that

(21:32):
we do? Mm-Hmm. ,uh, in terms of how we react ,
relate to one another and howwe put ourselves forward in the
community.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
A lot of it stated on our website, but , um, we
also did a team retreat lastyear where we were facilitated
and we talked about sharedcompany values and kind of
direction. And that I think wasreally helpful to have everyone
in the room on a, and we werethere for two days kind of
going to the deeper places andkind of hearing that again,

(21:59):
they saw what I had envisionedand or in line . So, yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Awesome. Do you, I like, I always sometimes have
heard people say and have felt,even myself, when you go away
on these retreats, people arekind of rolling their eyes and
going, all right , yeah. Well ,we're gonna be out of the
office for two days. Is itreally gonna be helpful? Is
we're gonna do anythingfruitful? Um, how , how do you
avoid that , um, potential likecynicism and sarcasm,

(22:30):
about these kinds ofexperiences?

Speaker 3 (22:32):
Yeah. Um, well I'm a experiential person, so I'm all
in. Um, and so I think part ofit is the energy. Yeah . And
the way that I talked about it. And I did have one whom she
tends to operate more from ananxious place. And so she was
thinking about ways she couldget out of it, . And
then when she got there, shewas like, oh, this is much
different than I anticipated.

(22:53):
And so I think the energy thatwas brought and then also just
what was taking place there, Ithink really showed like, Hey,
this matters. Like, we arebonding as a team, but also
like this professionally can,you can have application in
your client sessions as well.
Yeah. And then also just thepersonal impact of having time
to, 'cause we got personal,like, quiet reflection time

(23:16):
and, and we would, we playedsilly games too. And so it just
felt fun. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
Good. Alright . Well let me , um, do my next
transition, which I wanna talka little bit about specific
kinds of issues that peopledeal with and, and maybe some
strategies that you have , uh,to be helpful. Now, I know
you're working on a book and somaybe you can tap into some of
the things that you're thinkingabout writing . Um , so

(23:46):
one of the things that's nownear and dear to my heart is ,
um, working with families thatare dealing with , uh, a crisis
of cancer. Um, and so I , I infact, just for , um, some work
I'm doing, ran across somestatistics that according to
the American Cancer Society,there's gonna be 2 million new

(24:08):
cases in the United Statesalone in 2024 various kinds of
cancer. Wow . And , uh, 600,000deaths related to that. It's
the six leading cause of deathin the world. And so it just
keeps on becoming this thingthat people are dealing with,
if not personally, then peoplethey know and people they love.
And , uh, and so I'm, I'm justcurious if somebody comes to

(24:31):
you and , uh, they have like anonset of a crisis where just as
a normal part of their going toroutine doctor's appointment,
they find out that there'ssomething wrong and they
discovered they have cancer andthey, they don't know how to
deal with it emotionally. Whatare some of the things that you
say to that person that mighthelp them process what they've

(24:54):
just discovered?

Speaker 3 (24:56):
Yeah, I think it , it goes to , uh, the stages of
grief. Um, and so then themunderstanding and walking
through those stages, sobargaining, denial, sadness,
anger, and then acceptance. Um,because while there hasn't been
the loss of someone or, youknow , it's a loss of

(25:17):
something, right? Yeah . Andit's a , a big scary thing. And
so seeing it through the lensof grief and then also, I mean,
just a plug for counseling isgoing and having a place where
you can just be, leave the,like, leave the anger in the
room, say things that you mightnot say to loved ones because
it scares them. Um, and havinga space where you can show up

(25:39):
in the rawness and be realabout it. Um, and I think,
again, the outcome can't bechanged. Like you can leave a
counseling office and you stillhave cancer, right? Mm-Hmm.
. But it's, I atleast was able to experience
some of what I've been carryingand someone witnessed it with
me. And I think there's powerin that.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah. I , I , I agree a hundred, a hundred
thousand percent with that. Um,because, you know, one of the
things that as a cancer patientmyself, you're, you're not only
aware of the burden you'recarrying, but the burden that
the people around you who loveyou and care about you are
carrying now too. And, and, andso that knowledge that you

(26:18):
have, cancer is already enoughof a weight that they have to
carry. So you don't want tothen on top of that, talk about
your fears and your doubts andyour anxiety. Mm-Hmm .
. But to notprocess that Yeah . Is not good
either. Right. 'cause one ofthe contributors to the
acceleration of cancer isstress and emotional , um, you

(26:39):
know , unresolved emotions and,and so yeah. You definitely
need a place Mm-Hmm .
. And to havesomebody who's trained in that
process is super important.
'cause otherwise people sayreally dumb Yeah . Stuff, you
know? Yeah . And so , uh, tohave that place, that safe
place where you can becompletely raw Mm-Hmm.

(27:00):
and , uh, andjust let it all, you know, let
your hair down, so to speak.
Yeah . And , and be honest,it's just so, so crucial. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
And I think having someone outside of your world
too , I think makes a , a bigdifference because they don't,
they don't have any agenda.
They're just there to supportyou in whatever way you need.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
That's so true.
Yeah. 'cause other people do,you know, and , and it's, and
it's understandable. Sure . Youknow ,

Speaker 3 (27:24):
They , they want you to feel better, they wanna
encourage you not to worry,right?

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah. And they may have their own opinions about
what you should be doing. Andso they kind of hit at that
. Yeah. Yeah. And , uh,yeah. Okay. Um, how about for
the person, let's say, who'sbeen on a good trajectory in
their life where they've beendoing a lot of things right.
And, and then all of a suddenseemingly out of the blue

(27:53):
things start to deteriorate andthings start going wrong. And
they, and I'm sure you've seenit, there's just this negative
cycle that begins to happenwhere, you know, failure
becomes a loss of confidence,which becomes a self-fulfilling
prophecy and unwilling to riskor try again. And they be , you
know, depression and anxiety.

(28:14):
What are, what are some of thethings that you, you do when ,
um, a person comes to you inthat kind of place? Mm-Hmm.
. And they'relike, I haven't done anything
wrong. I, I've tried to do itright and I can't understand
this. Mm-Hmm. What kinds of things do you try
and say at that point?

Speaker 3 (28:31):
Yeah, I think , um, one thing that, whether it's
our society or it's , ashumans, we think that A plus B
always equals C or that itshould Mm-Hmm . .
And then when it doesn't, weget stuck. Because again, if
you're doing all the rightthings, then the outcome should
be all the right things. Yeah.
But life doesn't work that way.

(28:53):
And so , um, I think it'sabout, I go , it goes back to
grief of, yeah, you could havedid all the right things, but
that's not a determination toequal see . And living in the
gap of that, and thenprocessing the disappointment
and then recognizing it's notabout truly the outcome. 'cause
if you'd go back and do itagain, would you do it any

(29:14):
differently? Mm-Hmm . No. Yeah.
You'd still do the hard thingsbecause that's what you do.
'cause you feel better when youdo the right things. Yeah .

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yeah .

Speaker 3 (29:24):
Even if it doesn't equal C Yeah .

Speaker 1 (29:27):
And so when you say , um, like process the
disappointment , um, gimme anexample of like, specifically
what that looks like when ,when a person is like facing up
to their disappointment andprocessing it in a healthy way,
what does that, what does thatlook like for you? Or what are

(29:48):
you trying to help them to do?

Speaker 3 (29:51):
Um, yeah . I , I , I hate to simplify it, but it's
grief. Like, you have to movethrough all the questions that
you have. You have to movethrough all of the , um, the
what ifs and the doubts. Andonce you can state all of them,
then you can surface the angerand allowing that. And it could
be justified and righteous andall. And you gotta feel it. And

(30:11):
then once you move throughthat, then you have to feel the
sadness and the layers of justthe, again, the raw emotion
that comes with that. And it's,if you see it as a valve, you
are draining those things tothen wear acceptance. Your
perspective shifts. And so youhave a different viewpoint on
it, and it feels , um, lighter,less consuming. And it doesn't

(30:37):
mean it's also, you drain itonce and then you're done and
it could fill back up and thenyou gotta drain it again. But
it's moving through thatprocess that I think
disappointment, I think it'snecessary.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
And what, what would you say to the person who, you
know, who hears that and says,I, I don't know if I let this
emotion out and begin to reallyexpress what I'm thinking and
what I'm feeling, I'm justscared of what I will feel like

(31:12):
it's gonna be bigger than I canhandle. And I'd rather just
keep that puppy , youknow, closed up and covered
over. I don't, I don't wanna goall the way there because who
knows what that's gonna feellike. Mm-Hmm.
what , what would you say tothat person? ?

Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, I think that's , uh, a misperception. 'cause
I, at the end of the day, it'sa thought and a feeling and it
alwa all thoughts and allfeelings pass. And so an
analogy is if you are at a stopsign and you see cars going
through the thought and theemotion that you're
experiencing is just anothercar going through the
intersection, and you have tolet it pass. And if you're,

(31:51):
it's like you wanna buy a newcar, you begin to see them
everywhere. And if you try tothink that you're not seeing
them everywhere, you're stillgonna see it everywhere. But it
, so it's, you have to just letit pass because you, in trying
to not let it pass makes itbigger than it actually is.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
I've seen , I've seen it too, where , um, the,
the unwillingness to process itactually creates the more, more
stress. So it just kind ofbuilds up in you. And you see
people making foolish decisionsthat they would never, never do
otherwise. But because theyhave all this anxiety and

(32:30):
stress that going on inside,they're looking for a release
somewhere. Mm-Hmm .
. And so thenthey make these really poor
choices. And then when theyfinally get to the place of
sharing what it is that's goingon, they're like, wow, why did
I , why did I wait solong to, to do this? Because
this, yes, it's hard, but it'snot as bad as all the other

(32:52):
things that you could choose totry and compensate for

Speaker 3 (32:55):
It . But I think it's that, you know, whatever
they're getting from whatthey're choosing and the poor
choices, that little brieffeeling of, oh, I'm okay for
this 10 minutes or whatever.
Mm-Hmm. . Andit's like, well , well, it
still comes back after .
Yeah. Yeah. You still have tolive with you. Yeah. Avoiding
the inevitable. Yeah. Right .

Speaker 1 (33:15):
What about , um, the person who's watching somebody
, um, not go in a , in a gooddirection. Like, so it's, it's
not necessarily about you , uh,but you've watched a person
that you love. Maybe it's achild, maybe it's your spouse,
maybe it's a good friend and,and you're really concerned

(33:38):
about them. And you have thesense that it would be so
helpful if this person went tosee somebody to talk through
whatever it is they justexperienced, whether it's a
loss or an addiction ordepression. And you feel kind
of helpless in, in watchingthem. And so you wanna make a
suggestion, but you're afraidof, of the response. Um, have

(34:02):
you seen any strategies thathave been effective when
there's a loved one that youwanna help? And , and trying to
get them to see, hey, thiscould be a really good thing
for you.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
I if they're willing to see the idea through stages
of change. Um, 'cause there arepeople who, if they're not
quite willing to take a step orsee it from a different angle,
they're, they're gonna resistyour , um, comments or
suggestions. But if you noticethat they're shifting into kind
of more willingness and they'remore open, then I think as long

(34:37):
as you've remained loving andyou're that safe place that
didn't judge them regardless,then they'll know you'll come
top of mind when they're ready.
And so I think it's being ableto see the stages of change and
recognizing it in them, andthen knowing, okay, when I
notice a shift, can I put myplug in ?

Speaker 1 (34:58):
And do you, is there , uh, like any vocabulary that
you recommend when, whenthey're like, so let's say they
, that you have an open doorand you feel a prompting to,
okay, maybe I can insert myselfhere and make a suggestion. Is
there any specific languagethat you have found more

(35:20):
effective than others? Like,I'm sure like, go see a
counselor, is not, isnot the best strategy, but
maybe some other kind ofsuggestion or , uh, some other
way of framing the suggestionis helpful if you

Speaker 3 (35:35):
Ever Yeah. I think it's about asking like,
permission to speak. Um, andwhether it's an observation or
if it's, oh , I have a friendwho goes and sees this person
and they talk about what theytalk about and how it's
impacted them. We , does thatseem like any benefit for you?
Or , um, and again, not justinserting, but seeing if, if

(35:56):
you can ask to insert and whattheir response is even before
you insert. And so in thequestion, if they are like, oh
yeah, I'm , yeah, sure. Whatare you thinking? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
And maybe I've noticed that there are times
when let's say somebody makes adecision and then they feel the
consequences of a poor choice,and then they come to you and
go, I can't believe I did that.
To then in that moment say,okay, I've been thinking about
this for a while , and maybeI'm out of bounds when I

(36:28):
say this, but is itokay if I make a suggestion?
Yeah. I love you. I'm for you.
I don't want you to hearanything negative through this.
But I've wondered, I've knownmaybe even using a personal
experience, I found it helpfulto talk this through with
another person who's not inthis environment. Mm-Hmm .
who's outside,who , uh, is professionally

(36:48):
trained to ask good questions.
Mm-Hmm . . Um,maybe you should go and see and
I'll even go with you. Orsomething like that.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Um, so if you were to, 'cause I think this is
related. If you were to framewhat it is that counselors do
that would make it moreappealing. Like, I think people
have this perception that,well, things have gotten so
bad. , I felt it as apastor too, you know, oh, I

(37:20):
guess it's gotten so bad. Ihave to go see the pastor
. You know , and myguess is that the same thing is
true for you, where we're like,oh, I must be really bad off if
I have to go see a counselor.
Um, but I think that that's,that's a like the wrong
perception Yeah . Of it, youknow, you're, you're in a very
different place. So how wouldyou want people to see what you

(37:43):
do?

Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah. I, I think part of it's accountability.
And I think part of it too ishaving someone help guide , um,
or maybe nudge you in adirection where you are needing
some extra motivation orencouragement. Um, and 'cause I
think about what our worldwould be like if we all could

(38:04):
sit across from someone for anhour and talk about things that
are important to us. We feelseen, we feel inspired, we feel
moved, and then just moregood's gonna come from that.
Um, and so just knowing thatsomeone is in your corner and
they're for you , um, I think,I think yeah, just that feeling
of having a someone behind you,I think is amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
And I, I think too that one of the things I've
experienced is that when you'rewith a good counselor , um, you
, you know, you , you have yourworld, so you're thinking about
whatever it is you're dealingwith and you think you've
thought through all thepotential options. Like, I
could go here, I could do this,I could, and you feel stuck
because none of the things thatyou're thinking about have been

(38:50):
helpful. Mm-Hmm. .
And then you go in front of acounselor who's great at asking
good questions, and all of asudden there's this moment
where a whole new option opensup and you're like, I never
thought of that. Yeah. I, I,yeah . If I, yes. I think that
would be helpful, .
Yeah . You know, that there ,there's a great , um, and I

(39:12):
think maybe that's what youwere talking about earlier
about the aha moment. Mm-Hmm .
when you seethat, when somebody finally
says, oh, okay, I see a pathforward that I didn't see
before. Yeah. I think that'sone of the , the great things ,
uh, about a good, a goodcounselor and it's hard to get
anywhere else.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah. Perspective is important. . .
It's

Speaker 1 (39:33):
Alright . Um, I wanna ask kind of a tangential
question , um, mostly because Iknow this is also a personal
passion of yours. You care alot about fitness and nutrition
and just other, like the moreholistic health world , um,
rest and having good hobbiesand things like that. Um, how

(39:53):
would you connect those? Likewhen you, when you think about
emotional health and goodmental health, how is what
you're doing with your bodyconnected to that, to that
world

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Think in your mind?
Yeah. The, the visual that Ialways think about is like a
cog in a wheel. And so everyaspect of , um, your health, so
whether it's your mentalhealth, emotional health, your
physical health, the rest thatyou get , um, the habits that
you do, like if one or multipleof them are out of their
sections in the wheel, thenyou're gonna feel that. Yeah.

(40:30):
But if you work towards tryingto, to do what feels right for
you in all the different areas,like you just operate much
better. Like you wake up, youhave more energy , um, yeah.
You feel more motivated andYeah. And so I think if you
view , view it as the cog in awheel, it's like all of those
pieces have a role and if youneglect one, you're gonna feel

(40:52):
it in all the others.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah. So one of the things that I, I have found,
and 'cause we've had theseconversations over the years, I
think you'll understand this,but I guess I'm not the only
one, is that when you're in anot so great headspace , um,
you don't have the energy orthe want to for the other stuff

(41:13):
either. Right. So I just, Idon't feel like exercising. I'd
rather sit on my phone at nightand just scroll through
Instagram until 2:00 AM um, orbinge watch Netflix and, you
know, and so then you justdon't, you don't care , uh, or
don't have the energy for someof the other things. What do

(41:34):
you find helpful , um, in, inencouraging people to attend to
those things, even when theydon't, when they don't feel it?
What, what can get them movingforward in a positive
direction, do you think?

Speaker 3 (41:47):
Maybe tying it to a time when they were disciplined
about something and the feelingthat they got out of it. Um,
and so if they can rememberlike, oh, when I did this, this
is the accomplishment, or thisis the , the positive feeling
that I got and I wanna feelthat again. And so I think in
atomic habits, that's where thehabit stacking comes in. And
when you can stack thosethings, then you feel that. And

(42:11):
so it's, if you can connect itto a time when they felt like
that, then maybe they canunderstand that concept and
choose. But it's also, I thinkthat same,

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Well before you go on Yeah . For the person who's
not familiar with habitstacking, tease that out a
little

Speaker 3 (42:26):
Bit. Yeah. So where , um, you pair something that
you don't love with somethingthat is a little easier. So you
might, if you're gonna go on awalk, for example, you're only
gonna listen to one particularpodcast while you're walking.
And so you're not allowed tolisten to that podcast except
while you're walking. And sothen if you really wanna listen

(42:48):
to that podcast and know thenext episode, oh, I gotta get
moving then because I set thisto myself that I can only walk
when I'm listening to that.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
Yeah. One of the things I found, I , we were
talking about this the otherday, that, that one idea has
been so helpful to me , um, interms of routines, right? So
one of the things that I, Ioften found so difficult about
health and fitness was I hadto, you know, kind of force
myself to say, okay, at 6:00 AMI'm going to get up and do

(43:21):
this, you know, walk or pushupsor whatever. But , um, there
were always other things thatinterrupted it, but if I could
connect it to something I wasalready doing, so like I make
my coffee and then the nextthing I do is my pushups, then
I go and do my one mile walkand I come back and I do my

(43:41):
sauna and then the cold , youknow? So if you have it in your
routine, that one thing signalsanother. So you one have it
stacks on top of the otherMm-Hmm. as , uh,
uh, was clear James clear talksabout , um, that's that I find
so, so helpful and I don't haveto think about it anymore. And

(44:02):
then it's not about, well, do Ihave the energy to do it?
Mm-Hmm. . It'sjust that that's what I do.
Yeah. Um , I think there'sanother principle he talks
about that I found reallyhelpful too, is just the way
you think about yourself. Likeinstead of saying, oh, I have
to work out to , just to flipthat a little bit and say, I'm
the kind of guy Mm-Hmm .

(44:22):
who works out inthe mornings. Yeah. That's the
kind of guy I am. Yep . Asopposed to , uh, I hate that

Speaker 3 (44:30):
. Yeah. And I think if you were hearing
someone talk about how they hada workout routine or something
and you admired it, and whenyou, like you said, put that in
your thoughts of this is who Iam, then you identify with
them. And so when you identifywith them, then you make
choices like that. Right. Andit's same as like if you say to
yourself, well , I'm a healthyperson, so what do healthy
people do? Well , they take thestairs instead of the elevator,

(44:52):
or they add greens to theirdinner or whatever. And so then
when you think about it likethat, then you make choices
that reflect that.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Now why would you, and and maybe you've kind of
touched on this already, butjust maybe even more
specifically, so why is theseother things, the spokes in the
wheel as you talked about, whyare they so important to your
emotional health? Like, whydoes it matter if I do these
things and how does that affectpositively my mental state?

Speaker 3 (45:21):
And so with your example of if I'm gonna sit
there and scroll throughInstagram until 2:00 AM like
your mind is then gonna clickon your critic and say, oh,
well look at you. You're solazy and you're missing out on
your sleep, and you're gonna gointo that realm. And then when
you're down that mental track,then the next morning you're
gonna wake up and you're tiredand you're like, oh gosh, here
we go again. And you're intothis routine of thoughts. And

(45:44):
so it's , um, you have tointerject different thoughts.
And a lot of the times thatcomes with different behaviors
too.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Yeah . Yeah. I think, you know, the, the
complexity that happens as aresult of paying , uh, or not
paying attention to these otherthings, like, it just becomes a
domino, you know? Mm-Hmm .
like , thisdomino falls and then this
domino falls. And so here I hadlike a problem at a six and

(46:11):
because I have not paidattention to the other things,
, now all of a suddenit's an eight mm-Hmm .
, you know , andso it , it's, it becomes
self-defeating along the way.
Yeah . Well , um, any otherfinal thoughts? So I know
we've, we've kind of walkedthrough a lot of stuff here and
I'm curious if there's anythingelse you wanna add to the

(46:33):
conversation.

Speaker 3 (46:34):
Yeah. So kind of what you just said. So there's
one theory of counseling that'scalled cognitive behavioral
therapy. And so it , it goes onthe premise that our thoughts,
our feelings and our actions orbehaviors are all linked. And
so you can interject adifferent thought, which will
then lead to a differentemotion, which will then lead
to a different action. And thenthe same is true as if I change

(46:55):
my emotion, then my thoughtwill change, which then will
lead to a different behavior.
And so if you see those aslinked, it's like I only have
to change one, but then thecycle will change because I
only changed one. I love that.
Yeah. And so I feel like that'sa really practical thing that
you can talk about incounseling, but also just do as
a premise for your , foryourself. I love

Speaker 1 (47:15):
That too, because you can start at any one of
those. Yes. Right ? Mm-Hmm .
, you can startwith. Well, I'm , I'm more of a
person who lives in my mind, soI'm gonna start with changing
my thoughts. Mm-Hmm .
or maybe I'm aperson of action and so I'm
gonna start with behavior andhope that that hasn't done that
effect on my emotions andthoughts. Um, so you can start
at any one of the three Yeah .
And , and get a better result.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Yeah. 'cause let's say you start with the action
and you're like, okay, I'mgonna start with, I'm gonna go
for a walk. And then you comeback from your walk and you
feel energized and you feltyour blood pumping, which
releases those positiveendorphins. Mm-Hmm .
. And so thenthat leads to like, oh wow, I'm
doing great. Look at me, I'mstarting my day with this nice
walk. And then you have thatthought, which then leads to
again, happy, productive,joyful. And then you're gonna

(47:57):
go into the next thing withthat.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yep . Amen. . . Alright . So if
somebody wanted to know moreabout what you do, what's the
best way to connect with , uh,your work? Is it you have a
website, I'm assuming?

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Yeah. Tenfold counseling.com is our website.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Okay, great. And , and then we

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Have , uh, Instagram and Facebook as well.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yeah . And then you're doing podcasts. Where ,
where can they find you onpodcasts? Well,

Speaker 3 (48:21):
I'm a guest on a podcast. Um, but the Freedom
Project, I've done someepisodes on there and you can
find them there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
I've listened to 'em . . They're great.
. Well, thank youCrystal , and I really
appreciate you taking some timein the midst of your visit here
to , uh, do this podcast withme. Appreciate

Speaker 3 (48:39):
It . Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been good. All
right .