December 22, 2023 • 40 mins
The fawn response is a blended state in the nervous system between being in freeze and forcing social connection. We learn to do this from a very young age and it is EXHAUSTING. In this episode we're getting into the trap of making others happy above all else, especially your own health, during the end of year holiday frenzy.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:02):
Hello, hello, i Episode Six. Can you believe it? I know
I'm so proud of us. I have to. Isaw in the BuzzFeed like wrap up
for the year. I mean, only doingthis a couple of months, but
like six countries. Wow, that'sweird. Yeah, I mean, one of
(00:24):
them. I understand the CzechRepublic.
Because that's what Jake is. Butlike all the other ones, I
thought, wow, that's kind ofcool. Yeah, okay, we've got some
reach is what you're saying.
We're faced with eight peopleacross six countries.
Okay, this is the sleepy sisterPodcast. I'm Elizabeth brink.
(00:46):
I'm Sarah Durham. And we do notedit this. So come along
and get off the ride anytime youwant. That's right. Yeah. So
today we're gonna talk aboutfawning, the fawn response in
the nervous system. And I waswondering, do you want to set it
(01:09):
up? Do you want to tell us alittle bit about kind of where
this came from this not thefarmers tones. But this topic
yields backward? And now, do youwant to give a little, like,
definition of what that meansfor people that don't know about
that thought response and thinkit's,
they're just very good at makingeverybody happy? Yeah.
(01:34):
Now we really hooked them,right?
I'm very good at making otherpeople happy. Okay, so the fawn
response is a, it's a state inthe nervous system. Just like
fight flight, freeze, restconnection, these are all like
(01:54):
states in the nervous system.
The fawn response is kind ofmysterious. And it's not
generally thought to be an aseparate
response in the nervous system,it's by a lot of people, it's
considered to be a blendedstate. So a mix of kind of a
(02:16):
freeze response, an internalkind of stuck, freeze, maybe
little dissociative, and thenblended with a social connection
network in your body and yourbrain and your nervous system,
which is, has traditionally beenthought to be a place that we
(02:37):
that we access when we feelsafe. When we feel safe, we feel
connected. And welcome. That'slike those are signs of feeling
safe. And what's interestingabout this kind of blended state
is that it's like mixingtogether if you've listened to
our episode on freeze, it'smixing together like the highest
(02:57):
state of activation. So in somesense, kind of the highest level
of threat response with like,the safety system. It's so smart
in that way. It's tricky. Yeah.
And it's the holidays, right?
Yeah, end of year. And holidayseason, whatever holidays you
(03:18):
celebrate, or don't celebrate,there's just a ton of
buzzing happening in the worldin the grocery store. Just
everywhere. There's a lot ofbuzzing, speaking of buzzing, my
children are home. And you mayhear them like a herd of
elephants downstairs at somepoint running around during this
(03:42):
episode. Hopefully not. Butyeah, so it's, it's an
interesting combination of thesetwo things that are, you know,
it comes together in order tolike, keep you safe, if you
think of like, all of thesedifferent threat responses as
ways that wekind of pre what's the word
like, pre consciousness, likeour nervous system just kind of
(04:07):
goes into these modes in orderto take care of us. And so it's
so brilliant, that it hasfigured out like, hey, there's
some other skills in here, liketalking to people. And we could
use those when we're in dangerin order to stay safe, but still
be actually having an experienceof being in danger. Yes, so
(04:28):
confusing inside. It is soconfusing. It's so funny,
because the other day, I startedto send you a polo and I was
talking about something and thefawn response had come into my
mind and I thought, Oh, myprepping first of all, no, we're
not prepping for the podcast,right. But I was thinking
(04:52):
is this codependencyis this what fawning is, and
then I was looking at somethingI thought it it said it had that
Word on there. And I thought,okay, that makes perfect sense
and perfect sense why,especially for some of us, I
know I can speak for myselfaround the holidays, where I may
not struggle with codependencyas much during the year there
(05:15):
are enough things converging forme during the holidays with
sensory expectations.
Just it's like the perfectcocktail. Don't be around
people. I normally am aroundlike all of these different
things. And these expectationsthat I struggle with that this
(05:36):
time of year,more than any other time of year
with fawning with fawning. Yes.
So another word for this ispeople pleasing people pleasing?
Yes. And it's also important, Ithink, for us to kind of,
at least, it feels important tome to say something about
codependency because I've beendoing a lot of work around what
(05:58):
does it mean to beinterconnected to one another?
Andwhat does it mean for us to have
like, collective liberation,collective rest, and,
and we've, we've gotten a lot offlack around this idea of
codependency, like, oh, well,your side of the street is your
side of the street. And like,that's not my problem. So I'm
(06:20):
not going to take that on. But Ithink, and correct me or if
like, fill in some blanks, but Ithink kind of what we're talking
about in terms of codependencyis being somewhat consumed on a
subconscious or conscious levelwith controlling everybody
else's experience and makingsure that they're having a,
quote, good time, or they'refeeling like they are, their
(06:45):
perception of us is positive.
And that what we're doing thechoices we're making the things
we're saying or not doing orwhatever, are all in service to
this outcome of everyone's gonnafeel okay, they're gonna be
okay, they're gonna think I'mgreat. They're gonna think
they're having a goodthey're not. And like that, that
element of codependency of liketrying to control the
(07:08):
environment and the peoplearound us. And if we can't, then
we are not okay, if they arenot. Okay. Correct. So it's
like, trying to going, it'scertainly to the point of self
abandonment. And that's how Ikind of Yeah, yeah. Um, and with
that in mind, we can see howthat this fawning response
(07:34):
feels a lot more accessible forwomen and people in marginalized
communities, because it doeshave the people pleasing, you
know, andwith being neurodivergent, and
struggling with masking and allof that, this is just an easy
place to kind of step into, formany of us. And you know, right
now we're talking about why I'msleepy, it's because it's the
(07:56):
holidays, and I feel like thisgets where it feels like at
least this year, it feels alittle more ramped up for me.
You know, for me, how itmanifests is definitely that
extra emotional labor. Of like,if we talk like we celebrate
Christmas, if we're talkingabout getting presents, like,
(08:17):
does everybody have the sameamount? Or the is or the
presence like equal in? Like,will they be excited about them?
And are they physically similarsizes? Yeah, the rehearsing the
scenarios of people's reactions,and then you're trying to meet
needs preemptively instead ofbeing in the moment,
(08:38):
and being with myself, you know,that comes up. But that kind of
thinking about other people'sexperiences and their emotions,
but not in a way that's likeinterdependent, and like, wow, I
want I want, you know, mydaughter to, you know, really
enjoy this last couple of weeksat school, and they do a lot of
(08:59):
like, wear this different outfitand wear that or whatever. It's
not about like, some some days,it's like, you know, you got to,
I got to push myself to like, becreative, because she's asking,
and I'm like, do I have thecapacity? And I'm like, checking
with myself. I'm like, Yes, Ido. And then there's days or,
you know, times where I don't,but I'm pushing past boundaries
(09:21):
and capacity, and exhausted,because there's a need that I'm
perceiving that needs to be met.
And it may not be a need, youknow, well, it could be a need,
but it's just that, like, you'rethe only one that can meet it,
you're the only one that canmeet it the right way. Right? Or
you're the only one who's goingto be willing to meet it right?
(09:41):
Because there are times when, atleast in my marriage, when
there's a need that the childrenmight have, and there just might
be a general disagreement aboutif that need is necessary if
it's really a need and, and howto go about it. And so
Oh, it's like, well, if I wantit done right, I gotta do it
(10:02):
myself. But I think too aboutthe like fawning.
Because we did our holidayhubbub stuff a week early. And
I'm really glad that we did,because I have had a great week,
like not feeling all thefeelings that everybody else is
this week.
(10:23):
But I think about fawning andexcuse me how in.
In 2021, we had the lockdown.
And everybody was kind offreaking out and not going out
of their house very much notinteracting very much. And for
many of us, and I've heard thisfrom a lot of neurodivergent
people, and probably a lot ofpeople with like chronic fatigue
(10:46):
and illnesses. It was like ahuge relief. And I'm an
extrovert. So I was kind ofsurprised that it was a relief
to me. And I think it alsosurprised Cory because he's more
introverted, but he likes when Iorganize things and have people
over at the house. And I woulddo that a lot previously, and
during the pandemic lockdown,and then in the years since,
(11:10):
even as things opened up alittle bit more, I found myself
like totally renegotiating myrelationship with social
settings and with like, invitingpeople over all this stuff
around like,am I building relationships? am
I providing a space where peopleare coming and feeling known and
(11:33):
seen and all this work? That islike,
am I even enjoying this? What amI getting out of it? What not
like, what's in it for me?
Because it only can be about me,but like,
am I being nourished by thistoo? And if not, then like what
am I doing? I'm just likeplaying this role of like social
(11:55):
organizer for the sake ofeverybody else's good time. But
I'm exhausted. I'm sometimesagitated at these things,
because I've done way more workthan is necessary to pull them
off. And then I have to likesmile. And I've always been the
one to like organize big outingsand big events, even when I
(12:16):
didn't have the family that Ihave. Now. I was constantly
bringing people together. And Ijust think back with this idea
of fawning. And I wonder like,how much of it was really about
togetherness and connection andbeing community building? How
much of it was this expectationlike people wanted this, and I
(12:39):
have these certain skills, so Ishould just do it. But a lot of
it is me in this overdrive,highly activated state. Also not
really emotionally connectingwith people, because I'm working
so hard to like make theseexperiences happen. So I think
it is like my home away fromhome and my nervous system, or
(13:00):
it has been historically. Yeah,I would say that for sure about
you. I think for me, it's alittle more complicated. But I
definitely think that is a lotof my experience. And I will say
when you when you'rerenegotiating you know these
connections, because you saidsomething like I know, it's not
just about me, but honestly,it's about other people be
(13:23):
because you showing up as youauthentically
is best for everyone. Well, Iknow that that's where you start
seeing people kind of fall awaybecause some people will
absolutely take you at yourworst, if you will feel the need
in the room, whichand you see that right where
(13:44):
you're like, Well, I'm not gonnado this. And some people are
like, oh, yeah, like, I likethis version of you who is a
little more relaxed in present,and it's okay that you didn't
bring five casseroles or set upextra balloons or whatever. And
it is kind of an interestingvetting process, like, you know,
when youallow yourself to kind of take
(14:07):
up space in that way and kindof, you know, renegotiate, I
think, I think that's anotherthat word negotiation is remind
me another reason why I'm tiredand all this is that when you're
in this a certain level ofhealth,
there is a constant negotiatingand renegotiating when it comes
(14:31):
to this response. Because if youhave the capacity to check in
with yourself and you're kind ofnoticing these things, it's a
lot of work to then hold aboundary and then
you know, comfort yourself andand be on the other side of
holding that boundary. I wasthinking that article that you
(14:51):
sent, or you posted the otherday around or it was like a
little thing from neuro Wilds onInstagram, about you know
I'm talking to your kidspreemptively about, you know,
when they open up a presidentor, you know, if someone wants
to hug them, and they you wantthem to have, you know, autonomy
over their body and all theseother things and kind of running
(15:11):
through his expectations, andjust how much of those things
come up at this time of year.
And how much like, you know,renegotiating or, or vetting old
beliefs and then holding thoseboundaries, and then doing that
as Mama Bear and saying, givingyour kids permission to do that,
because you've gotneurodivergent kids, I mean, you
see, they go right into thatresponse, often feeling like, a
(15:34):
little pushback, and they haveto hug or they have to show a
certain reaction when theyreceive something.
And then you're dealing withlike, they're like, This gift is
dumb, and you're trying tocontrol the vibe in the room,
you know, like, the vibes gottastay? Well, yeah. And it's like
it that's hard for me to do formy own sake to, you know, to
(15:56):
like, mask my, somebody elseonline, yesterday was saying
something about, like, that's aninside thought or something
like, and I thought, like, Ifeel conflicted about teaching
my children about insidethoughts, because that's
essentially masking. And also,you know, being in relationship
with other humans iscomplicated. We went to dinner
(16:17):
last night at a friend's house,and it's like, our closest
friends here. And our kids arefriends and get along really
well. And soI was able to practice. So last
week, when we agreed to do thismeal together, it was gonna be
on a different night of theweek, and, and all four of the
(16:39):
adults were going to be workingand, and so I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna, like, make a soup orsomething. And, of course, I
volunteered to, like, do athing, do the big thing. And
then as it got closer, I waslike, Maybe we should just get
pizza. Maybe we should, like,I'm going through all this stuff
of like, how do I get out ofhaving said I was going to make
(17:01):
this big thing, but actuallydon't have capacity for that.
And I do feel safe in thisfriendship to say, I don't have
capacity for what I signed upfor. But still, we were gonna
get together and we did needfood. So it was like, okay, what
can we do that feels possible.
(17:22):
So we decided to make grilledcheeses. And we brought some
stuff with us, and but I letthis friend know, a couple days
before, like, we're bringingstuff for grilled cheeses.
That's really all I can do. Andbecause normally, it would be
like, who's going to do adessert? And like, should we
also have a salad or a soup, or,you know, and I was just like,
(17:43):
we're coming over with bread andcheese, and bacon, actually. So
it's just just what it's gonnabe. So we get there, it's
totally fine. This friend istotally fine with that. And we
have a lovely evening. And I amable to actually be there. But
what was interesting to me isthat when we got there, we were
all kind of standing around inthe kitchen. And I basically
asked Korea, she would make thesandwiches for all of us. And so
(18:07):
I could really feel in thatmoment, me.
I could feel that littleinternal horse in me that's
like, doing a little like, like,I don't know what that's called
River, like, they like hit theground, you know, their hoof,
like they're getting ready to goand it's like, I I will go over
(18:30):
there and I will assemblesandwiches for these eight
humans and will enjoy them. Butlike, I don't want that to be
what I did this evening. Andit's a different experience for
me to do those things than it isfor somebody else. So it turned
into more of a cooperativething. Like everybody was kind
of taking part in doing itversus like, what would have
(18:53):
happened which is I would havejust been like it's fine. I'll
do it and I just would have doneall of it. And yeah, it was like
a real it was a real exercise innot fawning and not just trying
to make it totally pleasant andeasy for everybody else.
But kind of leveling it is yourbelly full Are you hydrated, you
(19:16):
know,extra tomato, you know, you're
just like Wow, imagine if youjust didn't bring anything and
you just partook in the wholemeal. I mean, imagine that
that's maybe next year but likeI think about when you say this
story I think about if even afew years ago where you would
have not just up me just gonnapeel the curtain back a little
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bit like so she would have notjust
done done the grilled cheese oror the soup or whatever you
would have planned the wholething maybe bought everything
maybe assembled everything maybedone it then served and then you
would have eaten last maybecried a little bit got pissed at
your partner and had a fightbecause he wasn't getting on
(19:59):
board becauseGod knows it was too much work
for one person. And at the endof the night feeling kind of
resentful because nobody eversaid, Hey, can you and, you
know, so it's like, If thatsounds familiar, like, looks
like and I know, I mean, I'vebeen there too in different
ways. Butso for you to do that, I think
(20:19):
is kind of a big deal. It was ahuge deal. And it's not like I
haven't ever done the whole bigmeal, especially for this
particular family, like we havemeals together frequently enough
that like, it felt like a goodplace to practice like, Okay,
are there limits here to what Ihow I want to engage and how I
(20:41):
want to participate? And is thatokay? And in fact, even as
you're saying that I was thefirst one at the table waiting
for everybody else. And it waskind of nice woman, you know,
the other layer here, especiallythis time of year is that there
are also so many thingshappening around me right now
(21:02):
that I am choosing like to notdo that are a huge part of this
time of year like traditionallyin our family. Like we every
single year growing up since Iwas a baby, we decorate
Christmas cookies. And thisyear, I did not make them. And
it crossed my mind but only alittle bit, which is also
(21:25):
progress. And I just was like Ijust can't I made some other
cookies, but I'm like, I justcan't. It's a huge project.
Well, yesterday, our babysitterjust like on a whim, made cut
out cookies and decorated themwith the kids. Fun. And I was
like, This is amazing. And sucha good example of like when I'm
not in that overdrive fun. Letme make sure I'm managing
(21:48):
everybody else's good time. Itdoesn't mean that excuse me,
that that might then be likecompletely unavailable to them.
Like they might still havedecorated cookies. And
yeah, I think it's justthat would have been another
thing that I would have beendoing this week that would have
(22:08):
made last night's hang out, justlike another item on the list of
like the frenzy of this time ofyear. And instead it was like a
nice evening with our friends.
I'm glad we were able to do it.
And it didn't it actually feltrestorative not taxing. Yeah,
yeah, for sure. I think thatthat's the thing. Also to on the
(22:32):
outside of someone going throughthat. You know, and I know
because I've seen it in you haveseen it and like, you know, our
other sister are all the womenin our family. And so when I'm
in that I know what it lookslike from the outside. And
sometimes I will look at myselfthrough that lens, you know, and
I'll be like, because you're notreally you're not really making
(22:55):
the memory that you want tomake. You're just checking, like
you said, check in the thing offthe list. You know, one of the
reasons that got me reallythinking about this actually,
when you ask that question earlyon was I went to a doctor's
appointment, I went to my auntiewith my OB GYN who I love. She
has three kids, she walks intothe room. And I mean, I'm her
patient, right?
(23:17):
I said how's it going? How's theholidays, because I'm always
annual around Christmas.
She was completely activated. Imean, I could tell she started
talking 20 miles, and that was100 miles an hour, right? 20 is
a lot for a human but like,and so I'm about she's
responsible for getting all thegifts, she's got three kids,
(23:41):
she's like, we don't wrap Santa.
So I've got to figure out whereto hide it, but we don't have
any good closet space. And thenI gotta wrap it in those
packages. And like, My husbanddoesn't do any of this. And
then, you know, I've got torquethese shifts ended and like
probably went on for like 10minutes. Just and I could tell
(24:02):
she wasn't there with me, youknow, and I was thinking, Ooh,
sounds like me a little bitlike,
this is relatable. Maybe not tothat degree anymore, but like,
just definitely with thestruggle and it just, you know,
I think, you know, I've gotclients and talking about the
same things. And I just thinkthat, you know,
(24:27):
I want I wanted to talk about itfor myself, of course, because I
know that you will be like Yeah,girl forever, but for other
people out there too, becauseit's
it's so easily it's so easy forsociety and people in our lives
to repackage this and reallylabel it and say like all but
(24:51):
it's just you just want them tohave this and, and to encourage
a behavior that reallyinternally is where we're
abandoning ourselves.
We're, we're kind of betrayingour values or we're crossing
like boundaries and things likethat. And, and
it is tricky, like you said,because there are times that I
do check in with myself andoutwardly, it may look that way.
(25:13):
But I've checked in and I'mgood. And I'm going to do the
thing, right? Yeah. So it's,it's a lot of internal work, but
it's so easy for us. If we don'thave others in our lives to kind
of understand us about ourpersonalities
to say to us, you know, oh,that's just that's, you know,
it's, that's what moms do, orthat's what you know, so on. So
(25:36):
you know, does to encouragethat, or to make us feel like,
we should probably keep goingwith that. And I think what I
love about you and and Becca isthat, you know, especially, you
know, you're like why do youfeel about like, do you wanna?
Do you want to do it? Oh, maybe,you know, let me think about it,
actually. Or actually I do, orwhatever it is. And I think
(26:01):
that, you know, the glitter, theholiday bows.
It just easy for me to startcollecting examples of bypassing
my boundaries or like going pastthose things. Then during the
year where it's like, maybe oneevent where I like, I don't
(26:21):
know, it's easy for me check inwith myself. Right now. It's one
event in the last two weeks,rather than every day. It's
something Well, yeah, and likewe had modeled for us. This
like, holiday season mode. It'slike beast mode, but it's like
holiday season. You areresponsible for the magic. Yes.
effects in our family like youare responsible for the holiday
(26:43):
magic. And listen, we had a momwho was like, CEO of magic. Yes.
Like holiday magic.
I don't know if SEO is even theright but like President of
holiday magic for sure. And Imean, we're talking like way
before yard decorations wereeven a thing. Kathy Snyder had
(27:08):
cut out plywood and painted asnow couple snow people couple
and a Christmas tree. We hadyard decorations before that was
like a thing.
too, I don't think I don'tremember anyone decorating
cookies 40 years ago. I don'tknow there are people who've
done it their whole lives toI've heard, but I'm sure there
(27:30):
were some it was probably IN andOUT magazine, it was probably in
a magazine because that's whatI've learned as an adult is that
most of the recipes that my momused, and most of the traditions
that we had, were in some betterhomes and garden issue and like
the 60s, butbut the it wasn't just Christmas
cookie decorating, it was fourweeks before Christmas, she was
(27:53):
baking all kinds of candies andcookies, and stockpiling them so
that we get up this magical dayon Christmas Day of a sweets
buffet like out straight out ofWilly Wonka. And we could like
gorge ourselves on it all daylong. It was so magical and
amazing. And there are so manythings about the traditions,
(28:16):
from our family that I cherishand love. And they did mean so
much to me. But now as an adult,even before I had children, but
especially now that they'rehere. But even before it just
felt like I don't know how thisis humanly possible to do all
these things. And with theamount of time and energy we
(28:36):
have in a given day. And thatwas before I even did any of my
own healing around some of thisstuff. And I look back and I see
how hard moms struggled tocooperate and to collaborate and
be kind sometimes. And it'slike, well, yeah, I mean, she
(28:57):
was pushing herself to this edgeof burnout, maybe functioning in
burnout for all we know, inorder to make magic for everyone
else. And you know, I wantdifferent memories for me and
for my kids then I think sheprobably had.
And I do think that there weresocietal expectations or gender
(29:19):
norms. There are all thesethings were for her her
generation in that time andplace. That was what people were
doing.
And there's so much that I'mthankful for. And I've had to
I've had to do some of thatrenegotiating around my own,
like values and traditionsaround holidays because it was
(29:42):
so over the top that I can't Ican't sustain that. Well in
that, you know, part of the fawnresponse is, you know, your beer
values kind of become fluid andthey just kind of you know, and
we've been so focused on that. Imean the two
have us, you know, over the lastcouple of years that
(30:05):
the trade off of not beingpresent, it's a struggle to be
present. But like, it's notworth the trade off to me to not
be present. And so when I startfeeling that poll, it's like,
okay, and that's what, to me, itdoesn't feel seamless, it's
tiring, it's, you know, it'slike, it's tiring to be in the
fawn response, and then end upin, you know, to be in all of
(30:29):
that. And it's tiring torenegotiate. And to, like, keep
checking in and like, beingintentional, because it is not
like, you know, I maybe won'tever be I don't know, it's a
little easier. But it stillfeels like work. I mean, it
still feelsexhausting, because of the
(30:53):
holiday, you know, just the onething after the other, it's
like, there's not really a lotof like space in between to.
Soyeah, I would I hope every year
it gets a little easier, alittle more ease would be great.
Well, I think that that iswithin our control. I mean, I
(31:16):
think choosingto travel or not travel,
choosing to do big extravagantgift exchanges, or not choosing
to bring peanut butter and jellyto your friend's house. So long
as like they can have all thoseingredients.
Or not. Right. Like, it's, Ithink the difficult thing is
(31:36):
that, as we choose what we areand are not going to do, we have
to be ready for some internalactivation around. Oh, but then
what does this mean about me andabout me and this person? And
what will they think of me andright, like, if people know that
this is the version we did, youknow, I my kids got a lot of
(31:59):
secondhand gifts. And I do thisevery year where I just shop
secondhand for them forChristmas. There was one year
that I got a clothing rack fromour basement, and I hung up all
the costumes they already owned,and had gotten them each like
one other costume or somethingthat was secondhand. And it
looks so magical next to thetree. They were so excited. But
(32:21):
like they already owned thosethings. Like looks so cool. But
like, that's the kind of stuffthat I I felt really conflicted
when I did that. It was severalyears ago. I was like, Oh, I
feel like I'm cheating. Patchthinks here
about the Pacific patch. Yeah,but I think like, for me, it's
(32:44):
I mean, it's some of it is I'mglad that it is earth friendly,
environmentally friendly. Butit's also like it's less
expensive. And my kids don't usethings for very long. And I just
feel like I also don't have tojustify how much I'm getting
them. Because I can get themmore if it's secondhand. So
(33:06):
there's no push back in my housearound like, Okay, this is
getting ridiculous.
But I still am like, prettyrestrained with like, I mean,
they each had, I think four orfive gifts on Christmas here.
And it was one of our biggerChristmases this year. But
anyway, I don't know how I gotoff onto that. But I think while
(33:29):
you were talking about choosingwhat not Oh, yeah, that like
activation is going to come up,right? Like you're going to feel
all those internal critics aregoing to come up in your head,
and they're gonna start havingwords with you about the choices
you're making to not go to acertain holiday event, or to you
know, not get the tickets forthat thing. And, oh, can I share
an example? Yeah. Okay, so last,so Joshua's mom, you know,
(33:54):
struggling with dementia, right?
She's pretty late stage. So shedoesn't really have any idea
about, like, what presents alltheir stuff. And so last year,
you know,we decided because, you know,
they're on a budget, they'reelderly, like they, you know,
don't need to be spending extra,our kids don't need extra
(34:15):
presents or whatever. But,you know, the expectation was
that we would buy them somethingfrom them and put it under the
tree at the little Arlo familygathering. Because that's what
the other side does. Or the youknow, his brother and wife would
do and we hadn't really had adiscussion about it,
(34:36):
unfortunately, but it ended upbeing fine. Our kids didn't get
that second gift. But what theykind of the the muddled up part
of it wasit was something new, you know,
it's hard to know sometimesthese situations what to do,
what not to do. And so we itjust let the chips fall where
they may our kids didn't reallyeven notice and it was
(35:00):
Fine, and that they didn't havean extra gift or whatever. And
so this year, we talked aboutit, and they still really don't
have the budget for it. She'sdoesn't even know what's going
on. And so it's like, what's thepoint? Why are we doing this? So
(35:20):
I talked to my sister in law,and I said, Hey,
what are you guys doing? And shesaid, Well, we were gonna do it,
what are you doing? I'm like,I think this is a great time, we
can always have a conversationwith the kids like, we
don't need, we're not doing it.
We're just not going to do it.
Right. And by doing it, you meanbuying a gift and pretending
(35:40):
their grandparents got it foryou, per se, their parents
parents got it. It's like, whatwhat is the point? Right? And
what are like, it's just likeone of those things you're
doing, like, kind of just goingthrough the motions type thing,
right? And so she's like, that'sgreat. One less thing for me to
do, we're not going to do iteither. And I think it's great
because they don't need to feelor like, Dad, his dad doesn't
need to feel pressure. Mom, youknow, it's just
(36:04):
like having her own experience.
And we are what, you know, whatare we doing, our kids need to
have another president to like,go through this like inauthentic
exchange. And I think, you know,one of the things that
I like about it is that it alsolends to like an organic way of
(36:24):
talking more about, you know,choices and how we show up and
stuff like that. I was hoping abig conversation wouldn't need
to happen about why they'regetting something why the other
cousins, they're not, becauseit's not really from them. So
now we're all on the same page.
So it just was less stress, lessstress of trying to explain and
(36:45):
going out and buying othergifts, spending money, we don't
need to spend them spendingmoney and trying to figure out
another thing to give and so soget everyone on the same page
with that. Yeah. And like all itrequired was some communication.
Yep. That was it. Yeah, wehaven't even so this is really
like a holiday episode. We havenot even talked about like, the
fawn response in like everydaylife. And I have a lot to say
(37:08):
about it. So I think we need todo another episode about the
experience of having a lot oflife experiences where you're in
fun, and what that can maybelook and feel like and how you
can start to notice it anddisrupt it a little bit. Because
these are good examples. Becausethey are.
(37:30):
They're like one off annualevents and things that come up
that it's like very obvious,you're making a choice to do
something or not do something.
So it's a good opportunity toreally not even necessarily
change what you're doing rightnow. But to just be noticing,
oh, I do these particular thingsat this time of year, only for
the benefit of others, and theyactually don't care or it's
(37:51):
actually not like adding to theexperience, right. So we're not
talking about benevolence andinterconnectedness and
generosity that matters topeople and is helping those who
can't make things happen forthemselves, you know,
being with them and helping themmake things happen. We're not
(38:14):
talking about that. But I dothink there's room here for us
to talk about, like the nuancedway that fun kind of infiltrates
the system and, and how we canlike start all these tiny ways
in these tiny ways to kind ofget to know what that looks and
feels like in our uniqueindividual systems.
(38:37):
It think it's a big part ofhealing.
I think it's just a big part ofhealing is like noticing where
am I attuning to others, ratherthan attuning to myself? And
does it need to be either or canI be attuning to them and to me,
and what might that look like?
Yeah.
(38:59):
Yeah, no wonder we're tired. Iknow. I'm even more tired now.
Of course you are. I wonder ifwe'll if I wonder if we'll just
always be tired now. Like ifthat's just like,
saying that since I was like 25.
So Imean, I think good 25 years is
probably like it's it's here tostay. Yeah. Okay. Good. Levels
of tire though. Right. Then wetake the right name for the
(39:25):
podcast.
I think we'll be on brandforever.
Okay, well, this was a good wrapup for the year. We will be back
in the new year. With more goodstuff around being
neurodivergent parentingneurodivergent kids, fawning
(39:46):
definitely comes up with morefawning, or
parents it Yes, yeah. And I willhave had more Somatic
Experiencing training in thecoming year too. So I'm sure
there will be no shortage.
Have things to chat about, butthis has been fun. Thanks for
tuning in whoever has and,Sarah, thanks for doing this
with me. Or I love it. It's funjust easy. That's because
(40:10):
there's no prep and no editing.
So yeah, and nobody's reallyhere with us when we're doing
it. Small like those Instagramlives. Well, we're like one
personor like four and you're like,
Whoa, pressure. There's likefour people.
Okay, people is enough for me tostart going. You're changing my
(40:33):
whole like afaan affected like,Yeah, fine. Start masking the
math.
Like no, stop it. This is betterdefine the terms. No. Okay. All
right. Well, thanks. I'll talkto you soon.
Love you. Bye
Hello, hello, i Episode Six. Can you believe it? I know
I'm so proud of us. I have to. Isaw in the BuzzFeed like wrap up
for the year. I mean, only doingthis a couple of months, but
like six countries. Wow, that'sweird. Yeah, I mean, one of
(00:24):
them. I understand the CzechRepublic.
Because that's what Jake is. Butlike all the other ones, I
thought, wow, that's kind ofcool. Yeah, okay, we've got some
reach is what you're saying.
We're faced with eight peopleacross six countries.
Okay, this is the sleepy sisterPodcast. I'm Elizabeth brink.
(00:46):
I'm Sarah Durham. And we do notedit this. So come along
and get off the ride anytime youwant. That's right. Yeah. So
today we're gonna talk aboutfawning, the fawn response in
the nervous system. And I waswondering, do you want to set it
(01:09):
up? Do you want to tell us alittle bit about kind of where
this came from this not thefarmers tones. But this topic
yields backward? And now, do youwant to give a little, like,
definition of what that meansfor people that don't know about
that thought response and thinkit's,
they're just very good at makingeverybody happy? Yeah.
(01:34):
Now we really hooked them,right?
I'm very good at making otherpeople happy. Okay, so the fawn
response is a, it's a state inthe nervous system. Just like
fight flight, freeze, restconnection, these are all like
(01:54):
states in the nervous system.
The fawn response is kind ofmysterious. And it's not
generally thought to be an aseparate
response in the nervous system,it's by a lot of people, it's
considered to be a blendedstate. So a mix of kind of a
(02:16):
freeze response, an internalkind of stuck, freeze, maybe
little dissociative, and thenblended with a social connection
network in your body and yourbrain and your nervous system,
which is, has traditionally beenthought to be a place that we
(02:37):
that we access when we feelsafe. When we feel safe, we feel
connected. And welcome. That'slike those are signs of feeling
safe. And what's interestingabout this kind of blended state
is that it's like mixingtogether if you've listened to
our episode on freeze, it'smixing together like the highest
(02:57):
state of activation. So in somesense, kind of the highest level
of threat response with like,the safety system. It's so smart
in that way. It's tricky. Yeah.
And it's the holidays, right?
Yeah, end of year. And holidayseason, whatever holidays you
(03:18):
celebrate, or don't celebrate,there's just a ton of
buzzing happening in the worldin the grocery store. Just
everywhere. There's a lot ofbuzzing, speaking of buzzing, my
children are home. And you mayhear them like a herd of
elephants downstairs at somepoint running around during this
(03:42):
episode. Hopefully not. Butyeah, so it's, it's an
interesting combination of thesetwo things that are, you know,
it comes together in order tolike, keep you safe, if you
think of like, all of thesedifferent threat responses as
ways that wekind of pre what's the word
like, pre consciousness, likeour nervous system just kind of
(04:07):
goes into these modes in orderto take care of us. And so it's
so brilliant, that it hasfigured out like, hey, there's
some other skills in here, liketalking to people. And we could
use those when we're in dangerin order to stay safe, but still
be actually having an experienceof being in danger. Yes, so
(04:28):
confusing inside. It is soconfusing. It's so funny,
because the other day, I startedto send you a polo and I was
talking about something and thefawn response had come into my
mind and I thought, Oh, myprepping first of all, no, we're
not prepping for the podcast,right. But I was thinking
(04:52):
is this codependencyis this what fawning is, and
then I was looking at somethingI thought it it said it had that
Word on there. And I thought,okay, that makes perfect sense
and perfect sense why,especially for some of us, I
know I can speak for myselfaround the holidays, where I may
not struggle with codependencyas much during the year there
(05:15):
are enough things converging forme during the holidays with
sensory expectations.
Just it's like the perfectcocktail. Don't be around
people. I normally am aroundlike all of these different
things. And these expectationsthat I struggle with that this
(05:36):
time of year,more than any other time of year
with fawning with fawning. Yes.
So another word for this ispeople pleasing people pleasing?
Yes. And it's also important, Ithink, for us to kind of,
at least, it feels important tome to say something about
codependency because I've beendoing a lot of work around what
(05:58):
does it mean to beinterconnected to one another?
Andwhat does it mean for us to have
like, collective liberation,collective rest, and,
and we've, we've gotten a lot offlack around this idea of
codependency, like, oh, well,your side of the street is your
side of the street. And like,that's not my problem. So I'm
(06:20):
not going to take that on. But Ithink, and correct me or if
like, fill in some blanks, but Ithink kind of what we're talking
about in terms of codependencyis being somewhat consumed on a
subconscious or conscious levelwith controlling everybody
else's experience and makingsure that they're having a,
quote, good time, or they'refeeling like they are, their
(06:45):
perception of us is positive.
And that what we're doing thechoices we're making the things
we're saying or not doing orwhatever, are all in service to
this outcome of everyone's gonnafeel okay, they're gonna be
okay, they're gonna think I'mgreat. They're gonna think
they're having a goodthey're not. And like that, that
element of codependency of liketrying to control the
(07:08):
environment and the peoplearound us. And if we can't, then
we are not okay, if they arenot. Okay. Correct. So it's
like, trying to going, it'scertainly to the point of self
abandonment. And that's how Ikind of Yeah, yeah. Um, and with
that in mind, we can see howthat this fawning response
(07:34):
feels a lot more accessible forwomen and people in marginalized
communities, because it doeshave the people pleasing, you
know, andwith being neurodivergent, and
struggling with masking and allof that, this is just an easy
place to kind of step into, formany of us. And you know, right
now we're talking about why I'msleepy, it's because it's the
(07:56):
holidays, and I feel like thisgets where it feels like at
least this year, it feels alittle more ramped up for me.
You know, for me, how itmanifests is definitely that
extra emotional labor. Of like,if we talk like we celebrate
Christmas, if we're talkingabout getting presents, like,
(08:17):
does everybody have the sameamount? Or the is or the
presence like equal in? Like,will they be excited about them?
And are they physically similarsizes? Yeah, the rehearsing the
scenarios of people's reactions,and then you're trying to meet
needs preemptively instead ofbeing in the moment,
(08:38):
and being with myself, you know,that comes up. But that kind of
thinking about other people'sexperiences and their emotions,
but not in a way that's likeinterdependent, and like, wow, I
want I want, you know, mydaughter to, you know, really
enjoy this last couple of weeksat school, and they do a lot of
(08:59):
like, wear this different outfitand wear that or whatever. It's
not about like, some some days,it's like, you know, you got to,
I got to push myself to like, becreative, because she's asking,
and I'm like, do I have thecapacity? And I'm like, checking
with myself. I'm like, Yes, Ido. And then there's days or,
you know, times where I don't,but I'm pushing past boundaries
(09:21):
and capacity, and exhausted,because there's a need that I'm
perceiving that needs to be met.
And it may not be a need, youknow, well, it could be a need,
but it's just that, like, you'rethe only one that can meet it,
you're the only one that canmeet it the right way. Right? Or
you're the only one who's goingto be willing to meet it right?
(09:41):
Because there are times when, atleast in my marriage, when
there's a need that the childrenmight have, and there just might
be a general disagreement aboutif that need is necessary if
it's really a need and, and howto go about it. And so
Oh, it's like, well, if I wantit done right, I gotta do it
(10:02):
myself. But I think too aboutthe like fawning.
Because we did our holidayhubbub stuff a week early. And
I'm really glad that we did,because I have had a great week,
like not feeling all thefeelings that everybody else is
this week.
(10:23):
But I think about fawning andexcuse me how in.
In 2021, we had the lockdown.
And everybody was kind offreaking out and not going out
of their house very much notinteracting very much. And for
many of us, and I've heard thisfrom a lot of neurodivergent
people, and probably a lot ofpeople with like chronic fatigue
(10:46):
and illnesses. It was like ahuge relief. And I'm an
extrovert. So I was kind ofsurprised that it was a relief
to me. And I think it alsosurprised Cory because he's more
introverted, but he likes when Iorganize things and have people
over at the house. And I woulddo that a lot previously, and
during the pandemic lockdown,and then in the years since,
(11:10):
even as things opened up alittle bit more, I found myself
like totally renegotiating myrelationship with social
settings and with like, invitingpeople over all this stuff
around like,am I building relationships? am
I providing a space where peopleare coming and feeling known and
(11:33):
seen and all this work? That islike,
am I even enjoying this? What amI getting out of it? What not
like, what's in it for me?
Because it only can be about me,but like,
am I being nourished by thistoo? And if not, then like what
am I doing? I'm just likeplaying this role of like social
(11:55):
organizer for the sake ofeverybody else's good time. But
I'm exhausted. I'm sometimesagitated at these things,
because I've done way more workthan is necessary to pull them
off. And then I have to likesmile. And I've always been the
one to like organize big outingsand big events, even when I
(12:16):
didn't have the family that Ihave. Now. I was constantly
bringing people together. And Ijust think back with this idea
of fawning. And I wonder like,how much of it was really about
togetherness and connection andbeing community building? How
much of it was this expectationlike people wanted this, and I
(12:39):
have these certain skills, so Ishould just do it. But a lot of
it is me in this overdrive,highly activated state. Also not
really emotionally connectingwith people, because I'm working
so hard to like make theseexperiences happen. So I think
it is like my home away fromhome and my nervous system, or
(13:00):
it has been historically. Yeah,I would say that for sure about
you. I think for me, it's alittle more complicated. But I
definitely think that is a lotof my experience. And I will say
when you when you'rerenegotiating you know these
connections, because you saidsomething like I know, it's not
just about me, but honestly,it's about other people be
(13:23):
because you showing up as youauthentically
is best for everyone. Well, Iknow that that's where you start
seeing people kind of fall awaybecause some people will
absolutely take you at yourworst, if you will feel the need
in the room, whichand you see that right where
(13:44):
you're like, Well, I'm not gonnado this. And some people are
like, oh, yeah, like, I likethis version of you who is a
little more relaxed in present,and it's okay that you didn't
bring five casseroles or set upextra balloons or whatever. And
it is kind of an interestingvetting process, like, you know,
when youallow yourself to kind of take
(14:07):
up space in that way and kindof, you know, renegotiate, I
think, I think that's anotherthat word negotiation is remind
me another reason why I'm tiredand all this is that when you're
in this a certain level ofhealth,
there is a constant negotiatingand renegotiating when it comes
(14:31):
to this response. Because if youhave the capacity to check in
with yourself and you're kind ofnoticing these things, it's a
lot of work to then hold aboundary and then
you know, comfort yourself andand be on the other side of
holding that boundary. I wasthinking that article that you
(14:51):
sent, or you posted the otherday around or it was like a
little thing from neuro Wilds onInstagram, about you know
I'm talking to your kidspreemptively about, you know,
when they open up a presidentor, you know, if someone wants
to hug them, and they you wantthem to have, you know, autonomy
over their body and all theseother things and kind of running
(15:11):
through his expectations, andjust how much of those things
come up at this time of year.
And how much like, you know,renegotiating or, or vetting old
beliefs and then holding thoseboundaries, and then doing that
as Mama Bear and saying, givingyour kids permission to do that,
because you've gotneurodivergent kids, I mean, you
see, they go right into thatresponse, often feeling like, a
(15:34):
little pushback, and they haveto hug or they have to show a
certain reaction when theyreceive something.
And then you're dealing withlike, they're like, This gift is
dumb, and you're trying tocontrol the vibe in the room,
you know, like, the vibes gottastay? Well, yeah. And it's like
it that's hard for me to do formy own sake to, you know, to
(15:56):
like, mask my, somebody elseonline, yesterday was saying
something about, like, that's aninside thought or something
like, and I thought, like, Ifeel conflicted about teaching
my children about insidethoughts, because that's
essentially masking. And also,you know, being in relationship
with other humans iscomplicated. We went to dinner
(16:17):
last night at a friend's house,and it's like, our closest
friends here. And our kids arefriends and get along really
well. And soI was able to practice. So last
week, when we agreed to do thismeal together, it was gonna be
on a different night of theweek, and, and all four of the
(16:39):
adults were going to be workingand, and so I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna, like, make a soup orsomething. And, of course, I
volunteered to, like, do athing, do the big thing. And
then as it got closer, I waslike, Maybe we should just get
pizza. Maybe we should, like,I'm going through all this stuff
of like, how do I get out ofhaving said I was going to make
(17:01):
this big thing, but actuallydon't have capacity for that.
And I do feel safe in thisfriendship to say, I don't have
capacity for what I signed upfor. But still, we were gonna
get together and we did needfood. So it was like, okay, what
can we do that feels possible.
(17:22):
So we decided to make grilledcheeses. And we brought some
stuff with us, and but I letthis friend know, a couple days
before, like, we're bringingstuff for grilled cheeses.
That's really all I can do. Andbecause normally, it would be
like, who's going to do adessert? And like, should we
also have a salad or a soup, or,you know, and I was just like,
(17:43):
we're coming over with bread andcheese, and bacon, actually. So
it's just just what it's gonnabe. So we get there, it's
totally fine. This friend istotally fine with that. And we
have a lovely evening. And I amable to actually be there. But
what was interesting to me isthat when we got there, we were
all kind of standing around inthe kitchen. And I basically
asked Korea, she would make thesandwiches for all of us. And so
(18:07):
I could really feel in thatmoment, me.
I could feel that littleinternal horse in me that's
like, doing a little like, like,I don't know what that's called
River, like, they like hit theground, you know, their hoof,
like they're getting ready to goand it's like, I I will go over
(18:30):
there and I will assemblesandwiches for these eight
humans and will enjoy them. Butlike, I don't want that to be
what I did this evening. Andit's a different experience for
me to do those things than it isfor somebody else. So it turned
into more of a cooperativething. Like everybody was kind
of taking part in doing itversus like, what would have
(18:53):
happened which is I would havejust been like it's fine. I'll
do it and I just would have doneall of it. And yeah, it was like
a real it was a real exercise innot fawning and not just trying
to make it totally pleasant andeasy for everybody else.
But kind of leveling it is yourbelly full Are you hydrated, you
(19:16):
know,extra tomato, you know, you're
just like Wow, imagine if youjust didn't bring anything and
you just partook in the wholemeal. I mean, imagine that
that's maybe next year but likeI think about when you say this
story I think about if even afew years ago where you would
have not just up me just gonnapeel the curtain back a little
(19:36):
bit like so she would have notjust
done done the grilled cheese oror the soup or whatever you
would have planned the wholething maybe bought everything
maybe assembled everything maybedone it then served and then you
would have eaten last maybecried a little bit got pissed at
your partner and had a fightbecause he wasn't getting on
(19:59):
board becauseGod knows it was too much work
for one person. And at the endof the night feeling kind of
resentful because nobody eversaid, Hey, can you and, you
know, so it's like, If thatsounds familiar, like, looks
like and I know, I mean, I'vebeen there too in different
ways. Butso for you to do that, I think
(20:19):
is kind of a big deal. It was ahuge deal. And it's not like I
haven't ever done the whole bigmeal, especially for this
particular family, like we havemeals together frequently enough
that like, it felt like a goodplace to practice like, Okay,
are there limits here to what Ihow I want to engage and how I
(20:41):
want to participate? And is thatokay? And in fact, even as
you're saying that I was thefirst one at the table waiting
for everybody else. And it waskind of nice woman, you know,
the other layer here, especiallythis time of year is that there
are also so many thingshappening around me right now
(21:02):
that I am choosing like to notdo that are a huge part of this
time of year like traditionallyin our family. Like we every
single year growing up since Iwas a baby, we decorate
Christmas cookies. And thisyear, I did not make them. And
it crossed my mind but only alittle bit, which is also
(21:25):
progress. And I just was like Ijust can't I made some other
cookies, but I'm like, I justcan't. It's a huge project.
Well, yesterday, our babysitterjust like on a whim, made cut
out cookies and decorated themwith the kids. Fun. And I was
like, This is amazing. And sucha good example of like when I'm
not in that overdrive fun. Letme make sure I'm managing
(21:48):
everybody else's good time. Itdoesn't mean that excuse me,
that that might then be likecompletely unavailable to them.
Like they might still havedecorated cookies. And
yeah, I think it's justthat would have been another
thing that I would have beendoing this week that would have
(22:08):
made last night's hang out, justlike another item on the list of
like the frenzy of this time ofyear. And instead it was like a
nice evening with our friends.
I'm glad we were able to do it.
And it didn't it actually feltrestorative not taxing. Yeah,
yeah, for sure. I think thatthat's the thing. Also to on the
(22:32):
outside of someone going throughthat. You know, and I know
because I've seen it in you haveseen it and like, you know, our
other sister are all the womenin our family. And so when I'm
in that I know what it lookslike from the outside. And
sometimes I will look at myselfthrough that lens, you know, and
I'll be like, because you're notreally you're not really making
(22:55):
the memory that you want tomake. You're just checking, like
you said, check in the thing offthe list. You know, one of the
reasons that got me reallythinking about this actually,
when you ask that question earlyon was I went to a doctor's
appointment, I went to my auntiewith my OB GYN who I love. She
has three kids, she walks intothe room. And I mean, I'm her
patient, right?
(23:17):
I said how's it going? How's theholidays, because I'm always
annual around Christmas.
She was completely activated. Imean, I could tell she started
talking 20 miles, and that was100 miles an hour, right? 20 is
a lot for a human but like,and so I'm about she's
responsible for getting all thegifts, she's got three kids,
(23:41):
she's like, we don't wrap Santa.
So I've got to figure out whereto hide it, but we don't have
any good closet space. And thenI gotta wrap it in those
packages. And like, My husbanddoesn't do any of this. And
then, you know, I've got torquethese shifts ended and like
probably went on for like 10minutes. Just and I could tell
(24:02):
she wasn't there with me, youknow, and I was thinking, Ooh,
sounds like me a little bitlike,
this is relatable. Maybe not tothat degree anymore, but like,
just definitely with thestruggle and it just, you know,
I think, you know, I've gotclients and talking about the
same things. And I just thinkthat, you know,
(24:27):
I want I wanted to talk about itfor myself, of course, because I
know that you will be like Yeah,girl forever, but for other
people out there too, becauseit's
it's so easily it's so easy forsociety and people in our lives
to repackage this and reallylabel it and say like all but
(24:51):
it's just you just want them tohave this and, and to encourage
a behavior that reallyinternally is where we're
abandoning ourselves.
We're, we're kind of betrayingour values or we're crossing
like boundaries and things likethat. And, and
it is tricky, like you said,because there are times that I
do check in with myself andoutwardly, it may look that way.
(25:13):
But I've checked in and I'mgood. And I'm going to do the
thing, right? Yeah. So it's,it's a lot of internal work, but
it's so easy for us. If we don'thave others in our lives to kind
of understand us about ourpersonalities
to say to us, you know, oh,that's just that's, you know,
it's, that's what moms do, orthat's what you know, so on. So
(25:36):
you know, does to encouragethat, or to make us feel like,
we should probably keep goingwith that. And I think what I
love about you and and Becca isthat, you know, especially, you
know, you're like why do youfeel about like, do you wanna?
Do you want to do it? Oh, maybe,you know, let me think about it,
actually. Or actually I do, orwhatever it is. And I think
(26:01):
that, you know, the glitter, theholiday bows.
It just easy for me to startcollecting examples of bypassing
my boundaries or like going pastthose things. Then during the
year where it's like, maybe oneevent where I like, I don't
(26:21):
know, it's easy for me check inwith myself. Right now. It's one
event in the last two weeks,rather than every day. It's
something Well, yeah, and likewe had modeled for us. This
like, holiday season mode. It'slike beast mode, but it's like
holiday season. You areresponsible for the magic. Yes.
effects in our family like youare responsible for the holiday
(26:43):
magic. And listen, we had a momwho was like, CEO of magic. Yes.
Like holiday magic.
I don't know if SEO is even theright but like President of
holiday magic for sure. And Imean, we're talking like way
before yard decorations wereeven a thing. Kathy Snyder had
(27:08):
cut out plywood and painted asnow couple snow people couple
and a Christmas tree. We hadyard decorations before that was
like a thing.
too, I don't think I don'tremember anyone decorating
cookies 40 years ago. I don'tknow there are people who've
done it their whole lives toI've heard, but I'm sure there
(27:30):
were some it was probably IN andOUT magazine, it was probably in
a magazine because that's whatI've learned as an adult is that
most of the recipes that my momused, and most of the traditions
that we had, were in some betterhomes and garden issue and like
the 60s, butbut the it wasn't just Christmas
cookie decorating, it was fourweeks before Christmas, she was
(27:53):
baking all kinds of candies andcookies, and stockpiling them so
that we get up this magical dayon Christmas Day of a sweets
buffet like out straight out ofWilly Wonka. And we could like
gorge ourselves on it all daylong. It was so magical and
amazing. And there are so manythings about the traditions,
(28:16):
from our family that I cherishand love. And they did mean so
much to me. But now as an adult,even before I had children, but
especially now that they'rehere. But even before it just
felt like I don't know how thisis humanly possible to do all
these things. And with theamount of time and energy we
(28:36):
have in a given day. And thatwas before I even did any of my
own healing around some of thisstuff. And I look back and I see
how hard moms struggled tocooperate and to collaborate and
be kind sometimes. And it'slike, well, yeah, I mean, she
(28:57):
was pushing herself to this edgeof burnout, maybe functioning in
burnout for all we know, inorder to make magic for everyone
else. And you know, I wantdifferent memories for me and
for my kids then I think sheprobably had.
And I do think that there weresocietal expectations or gender
(29:19):
norms. There are all thesethings were for her her
generation in that time andplace. That was what people were
doing.
And there's so much that I'mthankful for. And I've had to
I've had to do some of thatrenegotiating around my own,
like values and traditionsaround holidays because it was
(29:42):
so over the top that I can't Ican't sustain that. Well in
that, you know, part of the fawnresponse is, you know, your beer
values kind of become fluid andthey just kind of you know, and
we've been so focused on that. Imean the two
have us, you know, over the lastcouple of years that
(30:05):
the trade off of not beingpresent, it's a struggle to be
present. But like, it's notworth the trade off to me to not
be present. And so when I startfeeling that poll, it's like,
okay, and that's what, to me, itdoesn't feel seamless, it's
tiring, it's, you know, it'slike, it's tiring to be in the
fawn response, and then end upin, you know, to be in all of
(30:29):
that. And it's tiring torenegotiate. And to, like, keep
checking in and like, beingintentional, because it is not
like, you know, I maybe won'tever be I don't know, it's a
little easier. But it stillfeels like work. I mean, it
still feelsexhausting, because of the
(30:53):
holiday, you know, just the onething after the other, it's
like, there's not really a lotof like space in between to.
Soyeah, I would I hope every year
it gets a little easier, alittle more ease would be great.
Well, I think that that iswithin our control. I mean, I
(31:16):
think choosingto travel or not travel,
choosing to do big extravagantgift exchanges, or not choosing
to bring peanut butter and jellyto your friend's house. So long
as like they can have all thoseingredients.
Or not. Right. Like, it's, Ithink the difficult thing is
(31:36):
that, as we choose what we areand are not going to do, we have
to be ready for some internalactivation around. Oh, but then
what does this mean about me andabout me and this person? And
what will they think of me andright, like, if people know that
this is the version we did, youknow, I my kids got a lot of
(31:59):
secondhand gifts. And I do thisevery year where I just shop
secondhand for them forChristmas. There was one year
that I got a clothing rack fromour basement, and I hung up all
the costumes they already owned,and had gotten them each like
one other costume or somethingthat was secondhand. And it
looks so magical next to thetree. They were so excited. But
(32:21):
like they already owned thosethings. Like looks so cool. But
like, that's the kind of stuffthat I I felt really conflicted
when I did that. It was severalyears ago. I was like, Oh, I
feel like I'm cheating. Patchthinks here
about the Pacific patch. Yeah,but I think like, for me, it's
(32:44):
I mean, it's some of it is I'mglad that it is earth friendly,
environmentally friendly. Butit's also like it's less
expensive. And my kids don't usethings for very long. And I just
feel like I also don't have tojustify how much I'm getting
them. Because I can get themmore if it's secondhand. So
(33:06):
there's no push back in my housearound like, Okay, this is
getting ridiculous.
But I still am like, prettyrestrained with like, I mean,
they each had, I think four orfive gifts on Christmas here.
And it was one of our biggerChristmases this year. But
anyway, I don't know how I gotoff onto that. But I think while
(33:29):
you were talking about choosingwhat not Oh, yeah, that like
activation is going to come up,right? Like you're going to feel
all those internal critics aregoing to come up in your head,
and they're gonna start havingwords with you about the choices
you're making to not go to acertain holiday event, or to you
know, not get the tickets forthat thing. And, oh, can I share
an example? Yeah. Okay, so last,so Joshua's mom, you know,
(33:54):
struggling with dementia, right?
She's pretty late stage. So shedoesn't really have any idea
about, like, what presents alltheir stuff. And so last year,
you know,we decided because, you know,
they're on a budget, they'reelderly, like they, you know,
don't need to be spending extra,our kids don't need extra
(34:15):
presents or whatever. But,you know, the expectation was
that we would buy them somethingfrom them and put it under the
tree at the little Arlo familygathering. Because that's what
the other side does. Or the youknow, his brother and wife would
do and we hadn't really had adiscussion about it,
(34:36):
unfortunately, but it ended upbeing fine. Our kids didn't get
that second gift. But what theykind of the the muddled up part
of it wasit was something new, you know,
it's hard to know sometimesthese situations what to do,
what not to do. And so we itjust let the chips fall where
they may our kids didn't reallyeven notice and it was
(35:00):
Fine, and that they didn't havean extra gift or whatever. And
so this year, we talked aboutit, and they still really don't
have the budget for it. She'sdoesn't even know what's going
on. And so it's like, what's thepoint? Why are we doing this? So
(35:20):
I talked to my sister in law,and I said, Hey,
what are you guys doing? And shesaid, Well, we were gonna do it,
what are you doing? I'm like,I think this is a great time, we
can always have a conversationwith the kids like, we
don't need, we're not doing it.
We're just not going to do it.
Right. And by doing it, you meanbuying a gift and pretending
(35:40):
their grandparents got it foryou, per se, their parents
parents got it. It's like, whatwhat is the point? Right? And
what are like, it's just likeone of those things you're
doing, like, kind of just goingthrough the motions type thing,
right? And so she's like, that'sgreat. One less thing for me to
do, we're not going to do iteither. And I think it's great
because they don't need to feelor like, Dad, his dad doesn't
need to feel pressure. Mom, youknow, it's just
(36:04):
like having her own experience.
And we are what, you know, whatare we doing, our kids need to
have another president to like,go through this like inauthentic
exchange. And I think, you know,one of the things that
I like about it is that it alsolends to like an organic way of
(36:24):
talking more about, you know,choices and how we show up and
stuff like that. I was hoping abig conversation wouldn't need
to happen about why they'regetting something why the other
cousins, they're not, becauseit's not really from them. So
now we're all on the same page.
So it just was less stress, lessstress of trying to explain and
(36:45):
going out and buying othergifts, spending money, we don't
need to spend them spendingmoney and trying to figure out
another thing to give and so soget everyone on the same page
with that. Yeah. And like all itrequired was some communication.
Yep. That was it. Yeah, wehaven't even so this is really
like a holiday episode. We havenot even talked about like, the
fawn response in like everydaylife. And I have a lot to say
(37:08):
about it. So I think we need todo another episode about the
experience of having a lot oflife experiences where you're in
fun, and what that can maybelook and feel like and how you
can start to notice it anddisrupt it a little bit. Because
these are good examples. Becausethey are.
(37:30):
They're like one off annualevents and things that come up
that it's like very obvious,you're making a choice to do
something or not do something.
So it's a good opportunity toreally not even necessarily
change what you're doing rightnow. But to just be noticing,
oh, I do these particular thingsat this time of year, only for
the benefit of others, and theyactually don't care or it's
(37:51):
actually not like adding to theexperience, right. So we're not
talking about benevolence andinterconnectedness and
generosity that matters topeople and is helping those who
can't make things happen forthemselves, you know,
being with them and helping themmake things happen. We're not
(38:14):
talking about that. But I dothink there's room here for us
to talk about, like the nuancedway that fun kind of infiltrates
the system and, and how we canlike start all these tiny ways
in these tiny ways to kind ofget to know what that looks and
feels like in our uniqueindividual systems.
(38:37):
It think it's a big part ofhealing.
I think it's just a big part ofhealing is like noticing where
am I attuning to others, ratherthan attuning to myself? And
does it need to be either or canI be attuning to them and to me,
and what might that look like?
Yeah.
(38:59):
Yeah, no wonder we're tired. Iknow. I'm even more tired now.
Of course you are. I wonder ifwe'll if I wonder if we'll just
always be tired now. Like ifthat's just like,
saying that since I was like 25.
So Imean, I think good 25 years is
probably like it's it's here tostay. Yeah. Okay. Good. Levels
of tire though. Right. Then wetake the right name for the
(39:25):
podcast.
I think we'll be on brandforever.
Okay, well, this was a good wrapup for the year. We will be back
in the new year. With more goodstuff around being
neurodivergent parentingneurodivergent kids, fawning
(39:46):
definitely comes up with morefawning, or
parents it Yes, yeah. And I willhave had more Somatic
Experiencing training in thecoming year too. So I'm sure
there will be no shortage.
Have things to chat about, butthis has been fun. Thanks for
tuning in whoever has and,Sarah, thanks for doing this
with me. Or I love it. It's funjust easy. That's because
(40:10):
there's no prep and no editing.
So yeah, and nobody's reallyhere with us when we're doing
it. Small like those Instagramlives. Well, we're like one
personor like four and you're like,
Whoa, pressure. There's likefour people.
Okay, people is enough for me tostart going. You're changing my
(40:33):
whole like afaan affected like,Yeah, fine. Start masking the
math.
Like no, stop it. This is betterdefine the terms. No. Okay. All
right. Well, thanks. I'll talkto you soon.
Love you. Bye
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