February 23, 2024 • 33 mins
Grieving is a part of being human, and yet we spend a lot of energy pretending we're not wrecked by the bitterness of death and loss of all kinds. When you're neurodivergent, grieving can be especially challenging. People don't understand our big feels on a regular day - how could they hold our pain???
Friend - you are not too much. Spend time with us as we honor the 18th anniversary of our mother's death as we tell stories and talk about the grind culture of grief.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
www.thrivingsistercoaching.com
www.kattywhompous.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:02):
Okay.
Oh, here we are. I'm Elizabethbrink and Sara Durham's here
with me, but she's laughingreally hard. And that is exactly
the way we want to start anepisode about grief. With
maniacal laughing.
Well, actually, I would like tostart with a little story
(00:24):
because I have a little storyfrom this morning.
Wait, before you tell yourstory. But I obviously the title
of this is about great. But I dowant to give a little bit of a
content warning that we may talkabout stuff that is upsetting to
others that might be upsettingto us. We're not intending to
talk about things like that. Butwe are going to talk about grief
(00:45):
and death and dying and diseaseand all of these things. And so
if that is going to beuncomfortable, or if you notice,
as you're listening to this,those 26 of you out there, if
you notice that you're feelinguncomfortable, please take care
of yourself. You don't youreally don't need to hear
whatever this is I'm laughingbecause I'm just imagining that
(01:06):
person mayfeel like oh, great, thanks for
permission. I also want to sayanother warning that there could
be curse words today.
Oh, mark it when we upload it.
We don't edit it. So there yougo.
All right, tell your story,Sara, let's hear it. All right.
(01:26):
So you know that like two yearsago,
I finally back to the cemetery,because today is the anniversary
of our mother's death. And Iwent to the cemetery for the
first time, and which, you know,she's been gone 18 years today.
So you're like two years ago?
What that's the first time. Butyou know, listen, we're not
going to get into all that rightnow. So that day that I went was
(01:47):
actually very, very good. Forme, it was a huge turning point
in my grief, in just the righttiming for me. But there was a
lot of it was like a comedy oferrors that day because it was
kind of spontaneous. It wasabout 107 degrees. Oh, gosh, in
Texas. It was spontaneous. Itwas after dropping my eldest off
(02:10):
to live back in Austin aftercollege.
And I just didn't prepare and Ididn't know where she was. There
was a lot of tears and sweat,and awkwardness. And what do I
do here and all of that. So fastforward. This week, I thought, I
(02:33):
think I might go to the cemeteryagain.
And so, you know, I never knowif that's actually going to
stick with me. So this morning,instead of going to exercise
class my career the other way.
And I drove 30 minutes out tothe cemetery. And I thought,
okay, it's beautiful outside,it's like 50 degrees, there's a
(02:54):
wonderful breeze like this isgoing to be
the redemption, you need it.
Okay. So I'm like, at least theweather conditions are good. So
I go out, I thought this time,I'm going to get flowers, right?
Last time. It's just like to getthere. I was so nervous. And
(03:14):
like, all hell this energy rent.
So I thought I'm gonna go I'mgonna get flowers, or mother
love flowers. And I thought eventhough my grandma has dementia
and does not know that we willbe putting flowers, I felt like
it would please her it wouldtickle her to know that we've
put flowers on there. And so Igo to the store and I get this
these roses. And I'm like, Oh mygosh, it was enough for me to
(03:37):
like put one in honor of Francieand Edwin and Nora and Sam and
me and you and all of the kidsand grandkids. I thought I'm
just going to be so this can begood. Let's give me another good
cry and sospecial. So special. And so I
drive over there and I'm superexcited. And I park. And
(04:00):
where's this going? Yeah.
I'll be damned if the groundcrew is not
mowing, the stretch where shelay it peace.
Okay, so we get on with the carand I'm just like,
it's okay, it's fine.
(04:22):
But he's mowing just a few yardsaway. And I'm looking at and
this is not us. I'm sure. Youcan look at the entire cemetery
from where I'm standing. I amthe only reverb president and
he looks at me, I look at him ina moment you're holding flowers,
right? So you like I definitelylove him
(04:48):
and he just keeps snowing andhe's on liquids or riding
mowers. And so I'm like, Okay,well, surely this won't take
very long. I would be wrongabout
Got that he continues to mowthat area and around her and I
swear he was going over thepatches multiple times waiting
(05:09):
for me.
Oh my gosh, I have my flowersthere. And I'm just thinking, so
I'm trying to connect. Oh mygosh, I can't even one more
would be a consumeris so loud I cannot hear. I'm
having a sensory experiencelistening to this.
So holding the flowers, I'm justthinking, and I just started
(05:33):
laughing. So I'm like, ofcourse, of course, they're of
all days, the person and mowingright there. I mean, there's a
huge place that he could go. AndI'm thinking, could you just go
mow other places right now? Whatdo we make a deal? I just, I'll
be here 15 minutes, you couldcome back like whatever. But he
continues to mow. And so I'mstanding there and I'm like,
(05:56):
Okay, mom.
I've got my flowers out. I'mlike, okay, so I just thought,
I'm going to try to make thebest of this. And I'm just in
this very loud sensoryexperience. Just, he's not
leaving. So I put down theroses. And I'm like, saying the
things I want to say sort ofwhat I'm saying I'm kind of loud
(06:20):
of the mower, as if she needs meto say the lounge.
And I'm doing other things, andthen I think you're yelling over
the mower.
I wasokay, Mom, you know, I missed
the great,classic. So I'm thinking okay,
so I get all I'm done. I thoughtyou know what I'm gonna do, I'm
gonna take a rose, I'm gonna goput it on Rachel's grave, and
(06:42):
then maybe he'll be gone. And Ican have a moment, right? So I
go on a journey. And I'm gonefor a long time. And I'm
still knowing I swear he was onthis path. And this was not very
long grass, over and over. And Ithought it was like, roots who
it is I felt like, you know, itjust felt like maybe the people
(07:06):
with those plots paid him extraor something. Maybe I'm not
sure. So he goes on and on andon. And so by the time I get
over there, you know, he wasgone. But I had to be gone for
quite a while. So I walked backover there. And then it just
felt like, so the upstandingthere. And
I'm trying to connect to thatplace inside of myself of like,
(07:30):
Oh, I feel some emotions comingup where she belongs. Right?
We're spared that place insideof me where it's like, I can
connect with her. Andjust slow down. Just slow down.
No, I'm good. I'm good. I justI couldn't I couldn't.
Um, but then I started laughing.
I was like, but it's okay. It'sokay. She would have loved this.
(07:55):
I mean, you persevered for thismoment. But here's the thing it
Listen, there's for people outthere who have family plots.
I get it they're beautiful. Andeveryone gets to be together.
But I will be honest with you. Ihad the the quietness and the
spaciousness now to connect.
(08:18):
And I was like, I don't know ifit's a lawn mower. It's threw me
off or it's the fact that I feelI feel pressure to talk to the
other family members that arehere in December
I totally get thisso are grandfather. two uncles
(08:44):
are there too? No, one no. Justjust uncle marks there. Oh, I
don't thinkHey, guys, so I felt okay, so
then I'm like, standing thereand I'm
feeling this pressure. And Ikind of tell her like, well, I
(09:05):
guess it's justwhat I cannot understand your
words. I guess it's not justgonna it's not gonna happen
today. This Okay.
Here's the flowers. I love you.
I'll come back another time.
I'll see you on my walk.
But the same Ed looking.
Just like thinking like, so I'dlike love you, grandpa. Love you
(09:30):
Uncle Mark, you know, and I'mlike, kind of speaking over to
the right to the otherheadstones. And I'm just feeling
this pressure. And it had methinking just about
what I'm saying.
But also just this whole idea offamily plots and like,
I wanted to have this momentwith her and I'm just I'm just
(09:52):
was thinking as I kind ofwrapped it up like, I want you
to rethink like kind of how Iapproached this whole thing and
because I kind of liked thecemetery now I kind of liked the
idea of being able to go outthere for whatever reason.
But I remember the last time Iwas there to feeling like when I
was in the midst of all thisblubbering and crying and just
(10:15):
like really connecting in that107 degree weather with her
still feel like grandpa andUncle Mark person over there
waiting for me to acknowledgethem. And, and listen, I know
that sounds kind of strange, butlike, I just needed it to
between me and mom, you know,I'm saying you're like, privacy,
please.
(10:37):
That wayto those other dead spirits, or
like people, can we just likeget a room? This is ridiculous.
That's exactly that is exactlyhow I felt. Maybe you need to
bring a tent.
Make me like one of those ones.
On the beach. We're like, it'skind of bottomless. And so you
could just like, set it over theheadstone and just kind of like
(11:00):
being a little not kidding. Thisone. Those privacy desks you get
in school when you have tickets?
Yes. You people to close toYeah, bring some folders.
All issued like last time Ididn't have a blanket to sit on
it. It was super hot. And Iwanted to be out there for a
while. So I had to go. I hadpacked you know, I had a dress,
(11:20):
I put a dress on the ground. Isat on it.
Well, this time I had a chair inthe car from Nora's soccer
practice. But I was like, Dopeople just sit chairs on top of
like the ground and like, overthe person and like, chill, oh,
this is where the cemetery.
Etiquette is. We cannot have awhole episode about. I know, I
just it's weird, because I havethoughts and things to say, but
(11:43):
I'm like, I need to stop myself.
Nobody needs to hear that. Butyes, there's a whole thing
around going to these restingplaces. And yes, they are in a
cemetery. It adds this wholelayer of weird No. And I told
you last time it happened again,going to find Rachel and me
(12:04):
feeling like I have to hop overlike areas and I don't know. And
I just there is a way in which Iwant to interact. I don't know
how to because I haven't had alot of practice, or modeling or
I guess it can be my own thing.
But I do kind of want to figurethat out. And not today,
obviously. But I wanted to sharethat with you. And I'm like
can't do anything quote unquote,normal. I mean, your neuro
(12:27):
divergence is Yeah, meaning.
Like, a so complicated thisbeing a person. Um, yeah, I was
thinking earlier aboutwhile I woke up at 5am couldn't
fall back to sleep was likehaving all kinds of memories pop
(12:50):
up and reenactments and waslike, Okay, I guess we're just
gonna be awake.
Didn't actually feel thatdistressing. So maybe there's
like a little bit of the gift oftime. But thinking about grief.
And the, what came to mind wasthis idea of like, the grind
(13:15):
culture. But I was thinkingabout, like, how the grind
culture impacts grief. Andespecially for those of us who
have more sensitive nervoussystems who have like, maybe a
deeper well of emotion, oraccess to a deeper well of
emotion.
You know, maybe people who areneurodivergent people with
(13:37):
trauma, whatever, there's lotsof different categories you
could put in there, butjust kind of reflecting on like,
18 years of missing her, andall the other losses I have
experienced and how muddy theyget because of the push to like,
find a new normal, right? Likenothing's normal for so long.
(14:04):
And then there's like a newnormal, and I feel like 18 years
in all of the sudden I feel likewe're also finding another new
normal, like a new one. Withthis part of the grief journey,
which is like the, the long roadI guess we're like on the long
(14:25):
road now, right? Like, I mean,probably we've been for a little
while, but I went to thecemetery last year for the first
time. Maybe in 17 years. Idon't, I don't know that I've
ever been. And in fact, I wasn'tsure if I was gonna go I was
visiting Texas and I had thekids in the car. And anytime I
(14:45):
would even drive on a highwaythat was even remotely near that
area of town. I would getactivated and start to cry. And
so I've just been like majoravoiding like no way I will come
and done I'm not going anyWe're near there.
And last summer I just kind oflike what you described this
morning. I just felt like my cargoing there like, okay, it's
(15:09):
almost dinnertime, but we'regonna like make this stop after
we went to the pool orsomething, it was really random.
So I took the kids. Andit there was like a sweet moment
there especially because myyounger one is so tender and is
like kind of interested incemeteries right now. And he
like, hugged the headstone andgave it a kiss. And like he was
like, super connected and sweet.
(15:33):
But like, I couldn't actuallyengage in any of the process,
because the two of them werethere. And I was like, I didn't
really think this through,because I felt like oh, maybe
there is a sob here in me that Icould let out. But then I can't
do that my kids are reallyyoung. Totally would scare them.
Andso it was very anticlimactic. It
was like, Okay, great. We didit. Let's go. We weren't there
(15:56):
very long. And I really havezero desire to go back.
Also, it's like kind of a trekto get there when revisiting but
just thinking about this, like,this year, in particular, I've
been feeling a lot like was iteven real? Was she even here did
that happen? And I think part ofthat is this long road part of
(16:22):
the grieving journey and alsolike, this pressure to keep
moving to keep going. And Ithink every year at this time,
we all all the siblings, youknow, we all notice in our
bodies, this kind of like uppulling back away from the
(16:43):
pushing, you know, kind of likeyou're putting your heel like a
cartoon character, like you'reputting your heels in the
ground, and you're being pushedand like you're moving dirt
because you're just like, No, Iwill not be forced to move
forward. And I, I feel that mostespecially in this season of the
year.
But I just think about how muchI felt that in the early years
(17:04):
and how I allowed the cultureand life and all of these things
to kind of push me on. And Ifeel a little sad about that I
feel a little sad aboutnot savoring some of the early
grief that was solike, potent and
(17:28):
intense. And at the same time,I'm like, I was probably just
like re traumatizing myselfevery year, engaging in the
intensity of it. But there'ssomething about the that
intensity that makes them feelclose and makes them feel like
real, like, oh, the pain feelsso sharp, and it just makes them
feel real. And I kind of resentthat we live in this fast paced
(17:51):
world that like you can forgetabout people.
That's so funny that you say sowhen I went to the cemetery two
years ago, I was very muchfeeling the way you are and for
our fellow Grievers. You guysknow this, it just changes and
shifts everythe university birthday, like
you never know, kind of how it'sgoing to come in. And so she's
(18:13):
going, Liz was going throughkind of like was it real and I
had that I was had been goingthrough that. And when I went to
the cemetery because I'd neverbeen there before. And I was
alone. And you know, I was Ilaid on the ground on top of the
plot and Ifelt for the first time in a
really long time that she wasreal. And I was like oh my god,
(18:36):
you were real. You're in yourreal you are real this is your
place and I needed that and itwas so painful but like I needed
that there's that bittersweetness of remembering that it
brought me that I think I wasannoyed with the people at the
cemetery today that guy orwhatever student his job because
(18:56):
I wanted to push away and slowdown and get that same moment of
like, I want to connect backinto you I want to feel that you
actually were as real as I feltthe last time and I didn't get
that and I I'm okay but likeI that that feeling
(19:24):
is really hard andand even though the other part
when you are the years you areconnecting and it feels visceral
or more painful.
You get the other part with ittoo. That is like balm to your
soul. Yeah, yeah.
(19:45):
Yeah, like II know that I miss her
on a cellular leveland I think in the law
last few yearsdoing all this trauma work and
somatic healing work. A lot hascome up
(20:10):
around death right aroundDaniel's death, this like,
very first formative death inour family, our younger brother,
and mom is such a prominentcharacter in that story. And so
(20:33):
in some ways, I've been likeinteracting with her in a new
way.
Processing what happenedwhen I was little, you know,
but without her here, so it'slike a super trippy experience
to feel like, I feel reallyconnected to her. And I feel
(20:56):
like a lot of healing hashappened between us. And it
happened like without her here,and then these Anniversaries are
like, important days come up,and
I will like, look at picturesor, you know, y'all will send
pictures and it's like, oh,yeah, there she is. There's her
smile. That's what she lookedlike. That's how she physically
(21:17):
moved through the world. Andit's like, this.
It's kind of a confusingexperience in my body. Because
it's like a, it's like a knowingand a recognizing. And
also searching. I totally relateto this. I feel like what you
(21:39):
just said, it's like this.
I always feel the messing. Ialways there's a thing in me
that I always feel that kind oflike, the world isn't the same.
Like,I'm past like the met on a on a
cognizant, conscious level oflike, Oh, it's just like a
(21:59):
feeling until I see a picture ofher, especially if it's one I
haven't seen, which is veryrare. It's like, that's it.
That's what that's what I'mmissing. It's, it's you. And or
that's that feeling that youdon't get to connect with all
the time. And it's like, ittakes your breath away. Yeah.
And, and one of the trippythings is that as we are all
(22:21):
aging, I'm seeing her like inour bodies.
I was withI don't know how I'm gonna get
through this show.
I was with our oldest brotherJason last weekend, and his
family. And I'mjust looking at him and looking
(22:43):
at his features and looking forher. You know?
His coloring is so similar tohers.
Andit feels so good to find her. I
remember. I remember after shedied, and I was in Boston.
(23:07):
I remember being on the bus towork one morning, and there was
this older woman and she hadbeen on the bus. It was like we
both went the same directionevery morning to work. And so I
had seen her a bunch of othertimes. And there was this one
morning where I just I don'tknow, my gaze landed on her
hands. And Sarah they were mom'shands. It was
(23:30):
totally undid me. I had to callout from work. I was like, I
could not stop staring at them.
This was before smartphones so Icouldn't creepily take photos
suffer answers but it was likethis like reaction to this
visual, the quality of the skinthere was just this something
about the structure the bonestructure, I just was like those
(23:53):
look exactly like my mom's handsand and seeing some of that and
grandma to when I saw her lastsummer. And I just savor that
now I just am like, oh, I wantto look more closely at each
other I want to see the agingspots because that's the parts
of her I remember, you know, Iremember her her body aging more
(24:16):
quickly than it should havebecause of cancer treatments.
But umyou know, I remember the quality
of the skin on her face and herhands and that kind of stuff
just likeI remember because I remember
being in the hospital with herlaying there.
(24:37):
And having thismoment of I'm gonna remember
this and I put my fingers overher cheeks I remember like she
had like kind of big pores Iremember like and then she had
this like one little like moleon her cheek. I can tell you
right now exactly. I can'texplain it but I in my my body
(25:00):
If I remember exactly how itfelt, I remember how her hands
felt that skin. So I know, I'mso grateful that I did that
because I just had this likepresent moment of like, I want
to remember this. And I can nowdo that. I also am thinking too,
with what you're just saying,because you're going to
(25:20):
basically see me I mean, I'mgoing to be mobbed. But I lately
if I sit like crisscrossapplesauce, or in a four or
whatever for too long, when Iget up, I have that stop moment
where I my hip is kind of tight.
And I limped for a second onlike, oh, dear Lord, because
there was this, like, our momhad broken hip for like, this
(25:42):
is, um, we're not going to getit but just an aside for like, a
decade years. Yeah. And did noty'all she was walking with a
broken hip. Okay, didn't know itwas Yeah, so when she would
stand up before she got thatfixed, she would take this
moment.
(26:02):
And then she would limp for asecond until she could get her
kind of her bearing that isabsolutely happening to me. And
it's, I think, probably one ofthe reasons or it's at least one
little tiny part of why I'vestruggled so much this year with
the emotions this kind ofenmeshed like feeling like I
need to separate her from me alittle bit.
(26:26):
Probably some work I need to dothere of like, this is not
happening to me. This is likeyour hip is tight. And it that
Yeah. Addicts sisters noddingyour head, and
had like, some emotions aroundthat. And so yeah, I think
(26:46):
I wasn't really going with that.
I just wanted to share it, youknow, just Well, I just think
this like beautiful echo rightof like, again, these like
little glimpses of them havingbeen real and having been here
and that we can find theselittle reminders everywhere. And
I think this is one of the kindof great things about being
neurodivergent when it comes togrief and loss is that, like,
(27:08):
our brains are already reallygood at like looking for all
those little tiny connectionsand patterns. And we're so prone
to that already that like evenif it's not one, we might still
find like some joy or solace inwhat could be a patent. You
know, the fact that I recognizethat woman's hands looking like
(27:29):
mom's that's probably part oflike, the way my brain is wired.
And yeah, absolutely. And I justthink I love that about the way
my brain works. The emotionalintensity, like the
the access toreally intense sensory
(27:49):
experiences, like being able toremember like, you know, like me
my memory how her skin feels. Ican smell her perfume. Yeah, um,
and someone was wearing it atKroger the other day, I swear,
like, I don't even know if theymake that any more privilege,
right? I have a bottle in mycabinet. That was her last
bottle. There's a little bitless and I'm saving for
(28:10):
something when you guys have anemergency and you need a spritz.
Oh my god, please never do that.
RPM was so nasty. I'm surprisedit hasn't evaporated. Honestly,
I had a scary it was weird. Iwas like, Oh my gosh, that's
Manuel I'm soall that to say like this, but
(28:30):
that was the emotional intensityof just being able to when you
talked about earlier.
You know, this, this push by theworld to say it's time to move
on or whatever.
One place where I feel like, youknow, our Nerd ever vergence
might help us a little bit withaccessing that is one our strong
(28:52):
sense of injustice of like, Oh,hell no, you're not pushing me
anywhere. I'm gonna scream andcry in the grocery store right
now.
And, you know, the, you know,that that kind of access to
that butting up against thatmessaging, I do feel like there
are places that we all were ableto kind of carve out more time
(29:14):
or more ways to be with it. Atleast I know the three of us
girls, I don't know about theboys. But you know, I haven't
talked to them about that. But Iknow like we've talked about
some of that, because that'skind of in us to like, No, I'm
not going to go with themainstream. Like we're human. Of
(29:34):
course we will. And yeah, Iremember saying I remember
somebody saying that thing abouta new normal like you'll and I
don't know if this was with momor if this was before when my
friend Rachel died. But Iremember saying to people I
don't want a new normal, likestop saying that. It sounds
terrible. Like who wants a newnormal? Nobody? Nobody unless
(29:58):
you are like indeep deep suffering. So actually
some people do. If your norm islike pain and suffering, then of
course, you probably are longingand aching for a new normal. But
at that point, yeah, I was notlike, we didn't have a lot not
to say to grieving peoplebecause that means we have heard
it all. I wrote blog posts aboutit at different points years
(30:21):
ago, I don't know where they arenow. But yeah, I do think that
there's more to explore aroundthis, I will say surprisingly,
that I have a couple of articleson my website about grieving and
neurodivergent. And they arelike some of the ones that are
the best, I guess performing iswhat you would say, like people
(30:42):
find those articles a lot. WhenI look at the, I don't even know
what the words are when I lookat performance or whatever.
So I feel like there's somethingmore to say about, you know,
who you are, and how thatimpacts grief. And I know a lot
(31:03):
of people have questions aboutI remember wondering, like, Is
this making it worse? Like, isthis making it harder? And I
think in some ways it did.
I think those sameneurodivergent traits that
helped me to savor some of thosethings also kept me in prolonged
(31:24):
exposure to extreme intenseemotions, that was not good for
my nervous system. Um,absolutely. I think that's true.
And I think too, like, when youhave a loss early, you know,
when Daniel died, you know,I am a connections maker, and,
you know, we're some kids, youknow, they may move through life
(31:46):
in a different way. I alreadywas, like, making connections,
you know, way, way out there.
And existentially you know, justlike, What is life? What is
happening? You know, there'sthis breach in the universe, and
how do I reconcile that? No oneto talk to about it, you know,
(32:06):
those kinds of things. So Ithink that and like what you
just said, then there's thatother part of it, where it's the
exposure, and then the emotionalintensity around. I never want
anyone to feel alone in this. Solet's seek out every person in
the universe who needs somebody,I worked so many blog articles.
(32:27):
Yeah, I'm like, people need totalk about death because we
clearly don't know how and don'twant to, and so we should
definitely do it. Absolutely.
Agree.
Okay, but no more today. I gotto I got to go to bed. No, I'm
not gonna go to bed. I kind ofwant to have more than like, I
gotta get a piece of cake. Oh,my gosh, I was just thinking
(32:48):
that. Yeah, that's because weneed some sensory bliss for the
cake. So I gotta figure outwhere I'm gonna go get a piece
of cake.
But I love you. Thanks for beingvulnerable with me. And that
kind of good mix ofYeah, I have no idea what just
happened in this episode, andwe're just gonna like, let it
(33:10):
be. Let it be. Okay. Sounds goodto me. All right. Talk to you
later. Bye.
Okay.
Oh, here we are. I'm Elizabethbrink and Sara Durham's here
with me, but she's laughingreally hard. And that is exactly
the way we want to start anepisode about grief. With
maniacal laughing.
Well, actually, I would like tostart with a little story
(00:24):
because I have a little storyfrom this morning.
Wait, before you tell yourstory. But I obviously the title
of this is about great. But I dowant to give a little bit of a
content warning that we may talkabout stuff that is upsetting to
others that might be upsettingto us. We're not intending to
talk about things like that. Butwe are going to talk about grief
(00:45):
and death and dying and diseaseand all of these things. And so
if that is going to beuncomfortable, or if you notice,
as you're listening to this,those 26 of you out there, if
you notice that you're feelinguncomfortable, please take care
of yourself. You don't youreally don't need to hear
whatever this is I'm laughingbecause I'm just imagining that
(01:06):
person mayfeel like oh, great, thanks for
permission. I also want to sayanother warning that there could
be curse words today.
Oh, mark it when we upload it.
We don't edit it. So there yougo.
All right, tell your story,Sara, let's hear it. All right.
(01:26):
So you know that like two yearsago,
I finally back to the cemetery,because today is the anniversary
of our mother's death. And Iwent to the cemetery for the
first time, and which, you know,she's been gone 18 years today.
So you're like two years ago?
What that's the first time. Butyou know, listen, we're not
going to get into all that rightnow. So that day that I went was
(01:47):
actually very, very good. Forme, it was a huge turning point
in my grief, in just the righttiming for me. But there was a
lot of it was like a comedy oferrors that day because it was
kind of spontaneous. It wasabout 107 degrees. Oh, gosh, in
Texas. It was spontaneous. Itwas after dropping my eldest off
(02:10):
to live back in Austin aftercollege.
And I just didn't prepare and Ididn't know where she was. There
was a lot of tears and sweat,and awkwardness. And what do I
do here and all of that. So fastforward. This week, I thought, I
(02:33):
think I might go to the cemeteryagain.
And so, you know, I never knowif that's actually going to
stick with me. So this morning,instead of going to exercise
class my career the other way.
And I drove 30 minutes out tothe cemetery. And I thought,
okay, it's beautiful outside,it's like 50 degrees, there's a
(02:54):
wonderful breeze like this isgoing to be
the redemption, you need it.
Okay. So I'm like, at least theweather conditions are good. So
I go out, I thought this time,I'm going to get flowers, right?
Last time. It's just like to getthere. I was so nervous. And
(03:14):
like, all hell this energy rent.
So I thought I'm gonna go I'mgonna get flowers, or mother
love flowers. And I thought eventhough my grandma has dementia
and does not know that we willbe putting flowers, I felt like
it would please her it wouldtickle her to know that we've
put flowers on there. And so Igo to the store and I get this
these roses. And I'm like, Oh mygosh, it was enough for me to
(03:37):
like put one in honor of Francieand Edwin and Nora and Sam and
me and you and all of the kidsand grandkids. I thought I'm
just going to be so this can begood. Let's give me another good
cry and sospecial. So special. And so I
drive over there and I'm superexcited. And I park. And
(04:00):
where's this going? Yeah.
I'll be damned if the groundcrew is not
mowing, the stretch where shelay it peace.
Okay, so we get on with the carand I'm just like,
it's okay, it's fine.
(04:22):
But he's mowing just a few yardsaway. And I'm looking at and
this is not us. I'm sure. Youcan look at the entire cemetery
from where I'm standing. I amthe only reverb president and
he looks at me, I look at him ina moment you're holding flowers,
right? So you like I definitelylove him
(04:48):
and he just keeps snowing andhe's on liquids or riding
mowers. And so I'm like, Okay,well, surely this won't take
very long. I would be wrongabout
Got that he continues to mowthat area and around her and I
swear he was going over thepatches multiple times waiting
(05:09):
for me.
Oh my gosh, I have my flowersthere. And I'm just thinking, so
I'm trying to connect. Oh mygosh, I can't even one more
would be a consumeris so loud I cannot hear. I'm
having a sensory experiencelistening to this.
So holding the flowers, I'm justthinking, and I just started
(05:33):
laughing. So I'm like, ofcourse, of course, they're of
all days, the person and mowingright there. I mean, there's a
huge place that he could go. AndI'm thinking, could you just go
mow other places right now? Whatdo we make a deal? I just, I'll
be here 15 minutes, you couldcome back like whatever. But he
continues to mow. And so I'mstanding there and I'm like,
(05:56):
Okay, mom.
I've got my flowers out. I'mlike, okay, so I just thought,
I'm going to try to make thebest of this. And I'm just in
this very loud sensoryexperience. Just, he's not
leaving. So I put down theroses. And I'm like, saying the
things I want to say sort ofwhat I'm saying I'm kind of loud
(06:20):
of the mower, as if she needs meto say the lounge.
And I'm doing other things, andthen I think you're yelling over
the mower.
I wasokay, Mom, you know, I missed
the great,classic. So I'm thinking okay,
so I get all I'm done. I thoughtyou know what I'm gonna do, I'm
gonna take a rose, I'm gonna goput it on Rachel's grave, and
(06:42):
then maybe he'll be gone. And Ican have a moment, right? So I
go on a journey. And I'm gonefor a long time. And I'm
still knowing I swear he was onthis path. And this was not very
long grass, over and over. And Ithought it was like, roots who
it is I felt like, you know, itjust felt like maybe the people
(07:06):
with those plots paid him extraor something. Maybe I'm not
sure. So he goes on and on andon. And so by the time I get
over there, you know, he wasgone. But I had to be gone for
quite a while. So I walked backover there. And then it just
felt like, so the upstandingthere. And
I'm trying to connect to thatplace inside of myself of like,
(07:30):
Oh, I feel some emotions comingup where she belongs. Right?
We're spared that place insideof me where it's like, I can
connect with her. Andjust slow down. Just slow down.
No, I'm good. I'm good. I justI couldn't I couldn't.
Um, but then I started laughing.
I was like, but it's okay. It'sokay. She would have loved this.
(07:55):
I mean, you persevered for thismoment. But here's the thing it
Listen, there's for people outthere who have family plots.
I get it they're beautiful. Andeveryone gets to be together.
But I will be honest with you. Ihad the the quietness and the
spaciousness now to connect.
(08:18):
And I was like, I don't know ifit's a lawn mower. It's threw me
off or it's the fact that I feelI feel pressure to talk to the
other family members that arehere in December
I totally get thisso are grandfather. two uncles
(08:44):
are there too? No, one no. Justjust uncle marks there. Oh, I
don't thinkHey, guys, so I felt okay, so
then I'm like, standing thereand I'm
feeling this pressure. And Ikind of tell her like, well, I
(09:05):
guess it's justwhat I cannot understand your
words. I guess it's not justgonna it's not gonna happen
today. This Okay.
Here's the flowers. I love you.
I'll come back another time.
I'll see you on my walk.
But the same Ed looking.
Just like thinking like, so I'dlike love you, grandpa. Love you
(09:30):
Uncle Mark, you know, and I'mlike, kind of speaking over to
the right to the otherheadstones. And I'm just feeling
this pressure. And it had methinking just about
what I'm saying.
But also just this whole idea offamily plots and like,
I wanted to have this momentwith her and I'm just I'm just
(09:52):
was thinking as I kind ofwrapped it up like, I want you
to rethink like kind of how Iapproached this whole thing and
because I kind of liked thecemetery now I kind of liked the
idea of being able to go outthere for whatever reason.
But I remember the last time Iwas there to feeling like when I
was in the midst of all thisblubbering and crying and just
(10:15):
like really connecting in that107 degree weather with her
still feel like grandpa andUncle Mark person over there
waiting for me to acknowledgethem. And, and listen, I know
that sounds kind of strange, butlike, I just needed it to
between me and mom, you know,I'm saying you're like, privacy,
please.
(10:37):
That wayto those other dead spirits, or
like people, can we just likeget a room? This is ridiculous.
That's exactly that is exactlyhow I felt. Maybe you need to
bring a tent.
Make me like one of those ones.
On the beach. We're like, it'skind of bottomless. And so you
could just like, set it over theheadstone and just kind of like
(11:00):
being a little not kidding. Thisone. Those privacy desks you get
in school when you have tickets?
Yes. You people to close toYeah, bring some folders.
All issued like last time Ididn't have a blanket to sit on
it. It was super hot. And Iwanted to be out there for a
while. So I had to go. I hadpacked you know, I had a dress,
(11:20):
I put a dress on the ground. Isat on it.
Well, this time I had a chair inthe car from Nora's soccer
practice. But I was like, Dopeople just sit chairs on top of
like the ground and like, overthe person and like, chill, oh,
this is where the cemetery.
Etiquette is. We cannot have awhole episode about. I know, I
just it's weird, because I havethoughts and things to say, but
(11:43):
I'm like, I need to stop myself.
Nobody needs to hear that. Butyes, there's a whole thing
around going to these restingplaces. And yes, they are in a
cemetery. It adds this wholelayer of weird No. And I told
you last time it happened again,going to find Rachel and me
(12:04):
feeling like I have to hop overlike areas and I don't know. And
I just there is a way in which Iwant to interact. I don't know
how to because I haven't had alot of practice, or modeling or
I guess it can be my own thing.
But I do kind of want to figurethat out. And not today,
obviously. But I wanted to sharethat with you. And I'm like
can't do anything quote unquote,normal. I mean, your neuro
(12:27):
divergence is Yeah, meaning.
Like, a so complicated thisbeing a person. Um, yeah, I was
thinking earlier aboutwhile I woke up at 5am couldn't
fall back to sleep was likehaving all kinds of memories pop
(12:50):
up and reenactments and waslike, Okay, I guess we're just
gonna be awake.
Didn't actually feel thatdistressing. So maybe there's
like a little bit of the gift oftime. But thinking about grief.
And the, what came to mind wasthis idea of like, the grind
(13:15):
culture. But I was thinkingabout, like, how the grind
culture impacts grief. Andespecially for those of us who
have more sensitive nervoussystems who have like, maybe a
deeper well of emotion, oraccess to a deeper well of
emotion.
You know, maybe people who areneurodivergent people with
(13:37):
trauma, whatever, there's lotsof different categories you
could put in there, butjust kind of reflecting on like,
18 years of missing her, andall the other losses I have
experienced and how muddy theyget because of the push to like,
find a new normal, right? Likenothing's normal for so long.
(14:04):
And then there's like a newnormal, and I feel like 18 years
in all of the sudden I feel likewe're also finding another new
normal, like a new one. Withthis part of the grief journey,
which is like the, the long roadI guess we're like on the long
(14:25):
road now, right? Like, I mean,probably we've been for a little
while, but I went to thecemetery last year for the first
time. Maybe in 17 years. Idon't, I don't know that I've
ever been. And in fact, I wasn'tsure if I was gonna go I was
visiting Texas and I had thekids in the car. And anytime I
(14:45):
would even drive on a highwaythat was even remotely near that
area of town. I would getactivated and start to cry. And
so I've just been like majoravoiding like no way I will come
and done I'm not going anyWe're near there.
And last summer I just kind oflike what you described this
morning. I just felt like my cargoing there like, okay, it's
(15:09):
almost dinnertime, but we'regonna like make this stop after
we went to the pool orsomething, it was really random.
So I took the kids. Andit there was like a sweet moment
there especially because myyounger one is so tender and is
like kind of interested incemeteries right now. And he
like, hugged the headstone andgave it a kiss. And like he was
like, super connected and sweet.
(15:33):
But like, I couldn't actuallyengage in any of the process,
because the two of them werethere. And I was like, I didn't
really think this through,because I felt like oh, maybe
there is a sob here in me that Icould let out. But then I can't
do that my kids are reallyyoung. Totally would scare them.
Andso it was very anticlimactic. It
was like, Okay, great. We didit. Let's go. We weren't there
(15:56):
very long. And I really havezero desire to go back.
Also, it's like kind of a trekto get there when revisiting but
just thinking about this, like,this year, in particular, I've
been feeling a lot like was iteven real? Was she even here did
that happen? And I think part ofthat is this long road part of
(16:22):
the grieving journey and alsolike, this pressure to keep
moving to keep going. And Ithink every year at this time,
we all all the siblings, youknow, we all notice in our
bodies, this kind of like uppulling back away from the
(16:43):
pushing, you know, kind of likeyou're putting your heel like a
cartoon character, like you'reputting your heels in the
ground, and you're being pushedand like you're moving dirt
because you're just like, No, Iwill not be forced to move
forward. And I, I feel that mostespecially in this season of the
year.
But I just think about how muchI felt that in the early years
(17:04):
and how I allowed the cultureand life and all of these things
to kind of push me on. And Ifeel a little sad about that I
feel a little sad aboutnot savoring some of the early
grief that was solike, potent and
(17:28):
intense. And at the same time,I'm like, I was probably just
like re traumatizing myselfevery year, engaging in the
intensity of it. But there'ssomething about the that
intensity that makes them feelclose and makes them feel like
real, like, oh, the pain feelsso sharp, and it just makes them
feel real. And I kind of resentthat we live in this fast paced
(17:51):
world that like you can forgetabout people.
That's so funny that you say sowhen I went to the cemetery two
years ago, I was very muchfeeling the way you are and for
our fellow Grievers. You guysknow this, it just changes and
shifts everythe university birthday, like
you never know, kind of how it'sgoing to come in. And so she's
(18:13):
going, Liz was going throughkind of like was it real and I
had that I was had been goingthrough that. And when I went to
the cemetery because I'd neverbeen there before. And I was
alone. And you know, I was Ilaid on the ground on top of the
plot and Ifelt for the first time in a
really long time that she wasreal. And I was like oh my god,
(18:36):
you were real. You're in yourreal you are real this is your
place and I needed that and itwas so painful but like I needed
that there's that bittersweetness of remembering that it
brought me that I think I wasannoyed with the people at the
cemetery today that guy orwhatever student his job because
(18:56):
I wanted to push away and slowdown and get that same moment of
like, I want to connect backinto you I want to feel that you
actually were as real as I feltthe last time and I didn't get
that and I I'm okay but likeI that that feeling
(19:24):
is really hard andand even though the other part
when you are the years you areconnecting and it feels visceral
or more painful.
You get the other part with ittoo. That is like balm to your
soul. Yeah, yeah.
(19:45):
Yeah, like II know that I miss her
on a cellular leveland I think in the law
last few yearsdoing all this trauma work and
somatic healing work. A lot hascome up
(20:10):
around death right aroundDaniel's death, this like,
very first formative death inour family, our younger brother,
and mom is such a prominentcharacter in that story. And so
(20:33):
in some ways, I've been likeinteracting with her in a new
way.
Processing what happenedwhen I was little, you know,
but without her here, so it'slike a super trippy experience
to feel like, I feel reallyconnected to her. And I feel
(20:56):
like a lot of healing hashappened between us. And it
happened like without her here,and then these Anniversaries are
like, important days come up,and
I will like, look at picturesor, you know, y'all will send
pictures and it's like, oh,yeah, there she is. There's her
smile. That's what she lookedlike. That's how she physically
(21:17):
moved through the world. Andit's like, this.
It's kind of a confusingexperience in my body. Because
it's like a, it's like a knowingand a recognizing. And
also searching. I totally relateto this. I feel like what you
(21:39):
just said, it's like this.
I always feel the messing. Ialways there's a thing in me
that I always feel that kind oflike, the world isn't the same.
Like,I'm past like the met on a on a
cognizant, conscious level oflike, Oh, it's just like a
(21:59):
feeling until I see a picture ofher, especially if it's one I
haven't seen, which is veryrare. It's like, that's it.
That's what that's what I'mmissing. It's, it's you. And or
that's that feeling that youdon't get to connect with all
the time. And it's like, ittakes your breath away. Yeah.
And, and one of the trippythings is that as we are all
(22:21):
aging, I'm seeing her like inour bodies.
I was withI don't know how I'm gonna get
through this show.
I was with our oldest brotherJason last weekend, and his
family. And I'mjust looking at him and looking
(22:43):
at his features and looking forher. You know?
His coloring is so similar tohers.
Andit feels so good to find her. I
remember. I remember after shedied, and I was in Boston.
(23:07):
I remember being on the bus towork one morning, and there was
this older woman and she hadbeen on the bus. It was like we
both went the same directionevery morning to work. And so I
had seen her a bunch of othertimes. And there was this one
morning where I just I don'tknow, my gaze landed on her
hands. And Sarah they were mom'shands. It was
(23:30):
totally undid me. I had to callout from work. I was like, I
could not stop staring at them.
This was before smartphones so Icouldn't creepily take photos
suffer answers but it was likethis like reaction to this
visual, the quality of the skinthere was just this something
about the structure the bonestructure, I just was like those
(23:53):
look exactly like my mom's handsand and seeing some of that and
grandma to when I saw her lastsummer. And I just savor that
now I just am like, oh, I wantto look more closely at each
other I want to see the agingspots because that's the parts
of her I remember, you know, Iremember her her body aging more
(24:16):
quickly than it should havebecause of cancer treatments.
But umyou know, I remember the quality
of the skin on her face and herhands and that kind of stuff
just likeI remember because I remember
being in the hospital with herlaying there.
(24:37):
And having thismoment of I'm gonna remember
this and I put my fingers overher cheeks I remember like she
had like kind of big pores Iremember like and then she had
this like one little like moleon her cheek. I can tell you
right now exactly. I can'texplain it but I in my my body
(25:00):
If I remember exactly how itfelt, I remember how her hands
felt that skin. So I know, I'mso grateful that I did that
because I just had this likepresent moment of like, I want
to remember this. And I can nowdo that. I also am thinking too,
with what you're just saying,because you're going to
(25:20):
basically see me I mean, I'mgoing to be mobbed. But I lately
if I sit like crisscrossapplesauce, or in a four or
whatever for too long, when Iget up, I have that stop moment
where I my hip is kind of tight.
And I limped for a second onlike, oh, dear Lord, because
there was this, like, our momhad broken hip for like, this
(25:42):
is, um, we're not going to getit but just an aside for like, a
decade years. Yeah. And did noty'all she was walking with a
broken hip. Okay, didn't know itwas Yeah, so when she would
stand up before she got thatfixed, she would take this
moment.
(26:02):
And then she would limp for asecond until she could get her
kind of her bearing that isabsolutely happening to me. And
it's, I think, probably one ofthe reasons or it's at least one
little tiny part of why I'vestruggled so much this year with
the emotions this kind ofenmeshed like feeling like I
need to separate her from me alittle bit.
(26:26):
Probably some work I need to dothere of like, this is not
happening to me. This is likeyour hip is tight. And it that
Yeah. Addicts sisters noddingyour head, and
had like, some emotions aroundthat. And so yeah, I think
(26:46):
I wasn't really going with that.
I just wanted to share it, youknow, just Well, I just think
this like beautiful echo rightof like, again, these like
little glimpses of them havingbeen real and having been here
and that we can find theselittle reminders everywhere. And
I think this is one of the kindof great things about being
neurodivergent when it comes togrief and loss is that, like,
(27:08):
our brains are already reallygood at like looking for all
those little tiny connectionsand patterns. And we're so prone
to that already that like evenif it's not one, we might still
find like some joy or solace inwhat could be a patent. You
know, the fact that I recognizethat woman's hands looking like
(27:29):
mom's that's probably part oflike, the way my brain is wired.
And yeah, absolutely. And I justthink I love that about the way
my brain works. The emotionalintensity, like the
the access toreally intense sensory
(27:49):
experiences, like being able toremember like, you know, like me
my memory how her skin feels. Ican smell her perfume. Yeah, um,
and someone was wearing it atKroger the other day, I swear,
like, I don't even know if theymake that any more privilege,
right? I have a bottle in mycabinet. That was her last
bottle. There's a little bitless and I'm saving for
(28:10):
something when you guys have anemergency and you need a spritz.
Oh my god, please never do that.
RPM was so nasty. I'm surprisedit hasn't evaporated. Honestly,
I had a scary it was weird. Iwas like, Oh my gosh, that's
Manuel I'm soall that to say like this, but
(28:30):
that was the emotional intensityof just being able to when you
talked about earlier.
You know, this, this push by theworld to say it's time to move
on or whatever.
One place where I feel like, youknow, our Nerd ever vergence
might help us a little bit withaccessing that is one our strong
(28:52):
sense of injustice of like, Oh,hell no, you're not pushing me
anywhere. I'm gonna scream andcry in the grocery store right
now.
And, you know, the, you know,that that kind of access to
that butting up against thatmessaging, I do feel like there
are places that we all were ableto kind of carve out more time
(29:14):
or more ways to be with it. Atleast I know the three of us
girls, I don't know about theboys. But you know, I haven't
talked to them about that. But Iknow like we've talked about
some of that, because that'skind of in us to like, No, I'm
not going to go with themainstream. Like we're human. Of
(29:34):
course we will. And yeah, Iremember saying I remember
somebody saying that thing abouta new normal like you'll and I
don't know if this was with momor if this was before when my
friend Rachel died. But Iremember saying to people I
don't want a new normal, likestop saying that. It sounds
terrible. Like who wants a newnormal? Nobody? Nobody unless
(29:58):
you are like indeep deep suffering. So actually
some people do. If your norm islike pain and suffering, then of
course, you probably are longingand aching for a new normal. But
at that point, yeah, I was notlike, we didn't have a lot not
to say to grieving peoplebecause that means we have heard
it all. I wrote blog posts aboutit at different points years
(30:21):
ago, I don't know where they arenow. But yeah, I do think that
there's more to explore aroundthis, I will say surprisingly,
that I have a couple of articleson my website about grieving and
neurodivergent. And they arelike some of the ones that are
the best, I guess performing iswhat you would say, like people
(30:42):
find those articles a lot. WhenI look at the, I don't even know
what the words are when I lookat performance or whatever.
So I feel like there's somethingmore to say about, you know,
who you are, and how thatimpacts grief. And I know a lot
(31:03):
of people have questions aboutI remember wondering, like, Is
this making it worse? Like, isthis making it harder? And I
think in some ways it did.
I think those sameneurodivergent traits that
helped me to savor some of thosethings also kept me in prolonged
(31:24):
exposure to extreme intenseemotions, that was not good for
my nervous system. Um,absolutely. I think that's true.
And I think too, like, when youhave a loss early, you know,
when Daniel died, you know,I am a connections maker, and,
you know, we're some kids, youknow, they may move through life
(31:46):
in a different way. I alreadywas, like, making connections,
you know, way, way out there.
And existentially you know, justlike, What is life? What is
happening? You know, there'sthis breach in the universe, and
how do I reconcile that? No oneto talk to about it, you know,
(32:06):
those kinds of things. So Ithink that and like what you
just said, then there's thatother part of it, where it's the
exposure, and then the emotionalintensity around. I never want
anyone to feel alone in this. Solet's seek out every person in
the universe who needs somebody,I worked so many blog articles.
(32:27):
Yeah, I'm like, people need totalk about death because we
clearly don't know how and don'twant to, and so we should
definitely do it. Absolutely.
Agree.
Okay, but no more today. I gotto I got to go to bed. No, I'm
not gonna go to bed. I kind ofwant to have more than like, I
gotta get a piece of cake. Oh,my gosh, I was just thinking
(32:48):
that. Yeah, that's because weneed some sensory bliss for the
cake. So I gotta figure outwhere I'm gonna go get a piece
of cake.
But I love you. Thanks for beingvulnerable with me. And that
kind of good mix ofYeah, I have no idea what just
happened in this episode, andwe're just gonna like, let it
(33:10):
be. Let it be. Okay. Sounds goodto me. All right. Talk to you
later. Bye.
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