Vault Episode 2: O2 Utah/ Stewardship Utah - David Garbett - Small Lake City

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
What is up everybody and welcome to the Small Lake
City Podcast.
I'm your host, eric Nilsen, andwelcome back for Episode 2.
Thank you so much for listeningto Episode 1.
And I hope you all enjoyed it.
Today we are going to becovering a pretty different
topic, but I think it's one thatis near and dear to most
people's hearts in the Salt LakeValley, and I think if we were
to ask everyone across thevalley if they had one issue

(00:23):
that they could wave their wandand fix, it would be one of the
top answers and you might bethinking about it already, but
it is the air quality in Utah.
For those that have been herefor a little bit of time, you've
probably seen it slowly getworse.
You've seen a lot more nationalattention, with the Great Salt
Lake drying up and the threat ofheavy metals entering our air
and becoming a much less safeand harmful place to live.

(00:45):
So today we're going to betalking to David Garbett, who is
the founder of the nonprofit O2Utah, which is a nonprofit
geared towards gettinglegislation passed to fight air
quality and climate change inUtah.
So excited to share this withyou all and hear about some of
the solutions towards theseproblems, because sometimes it
feels like traction isn't beingmade or these issues are getting

(01:08):
ignored.
So join in and hear some of hiscommentary on what he is doing
to make this city a better placeto live.
Enjoy, hey, eric, great to behere.
Hey, thanks for coming.
I'm so excited for this onebecause obviously the point is
to talk to people in a broadaspect of things.
I mean, we've coveredeverything from entertainment to

(01:31):
entrepreneurs to, I mean,almost, love stories, and now I
really want to touch this inenvironmental peace because it's
so relevant to other people.
But kind of want to start withfrom the beginning and hear how
you came to love such abeautiful place and kind of the
foundation that was built there.
So I mean, born and raised inSalt Lake, what part of the
valley were you raised in?
What was your family like?

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Born and raised here in the valley.
As you know the distinctionbetween Salt Lake City and
everything else I grew up in.
About half my childhood was inWest Valley and then half in
Sandy.
Went to high school there inSandy Valley and then half in
Sandy, uh, went to high schoolthere in Sandy and, um, I've

(02:12):
been away and back a fewdifferent times but keep getting
drawn back, uh, here to theValley, specifically to Salt
Lake city.
Um, so, yeah, most of my lifehere.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
And one thing I know about you is that you're a huge
BYU football fan and would doalmost anything to get football
tickets.
If I remember correctly thatyou had a bet with your mother
to get season tickets.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, you know, as always, I feel like I have to
one first of all, thank you fordisclosing my childhood
addiction that I haven't beenable to overcome.
And then, second of all, yes, Ifeel like I need to explain
this to everybody.
Look, when I was a kid, my bestfriend living next door was a
big BYU fan.
So I became a BYU fan and atone point I think when I was 11,

(03:01):
my mom told me that if Ipracticed the piano for a year
without missing a day, she wouldbuy season tickets for me for
football.
And of course, that soundedincredible.
So I practiced every single dayfor a year, except for one,
except for one.
And my mom said, hmm, maybenext year.

(03:22):
So then I had to practice thatwhole second year, finally earn
those tickets, and I maintainedthose for years.
But the thing is, you can'tjust walk away from love like
that, even if you try and I havetried, trust me, I have tried.
But at this point, what are yougoing to do?
Hey?

Speaker 1 (03:41):
I'm always BYU fan yes, BYU fan.
No one's perfect, but no, I'malways BYU fan.
Yes, BYU fan.
No one's perfect, but no, Ilove that.
I love that your mom's likewell, you know, we said 365, you
did 364.
So the clock starts over again.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, exactly.
And the other question peoplealways ask is like oh so you
must be really good at piano.
It's like, no, it's not, likethat was quality practicing.
I mean, it was just sitting onthe bench, you know, plinking
the keys with one finger.
This is, it was all aboutearning the tickets, not
becoming a great musician.
Check the box.
Yeah, exactly, Love that.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
So I know you come from a big family.
You're remind me how many andwhere you fall within them.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
I am the oldest of eight kids.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
The wisest of eight kids?
Yeah, sure, and I'm luckyenough to have met a couple of
them and it's so fun to see youguys.
You have a really fun dynamicand get along really well.
Um, which sibling would you sayyou're closest with, and what
brings you guys together themost?

Speaker 2 (04:32):
We're all pretty close actually.
Um, I feel like I've gotrelationships with all of my
siblings.
Half of them are here in Utah,the other half are outside.
So obviously those that arehere I see a bit more.
But no, I feel really lucky andwe're all close.

(04:55):
We still do things together,spend time together, we'll do
vacations, hang out.
So I feel like I've gotrelationships with all of them.
Nice, and then I mean any sortof activities, hobbies that
populated your youth.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
So I feel like I've got relationships with all of
them Nice, and then I mean anysort of activities, hobbies that
populated your youth outside ofpiano and BYU addiction.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Any sports.
Yeah, I mean, growing up I dida mix when we get to this.
When I was a kid, I had this,uh, this issue that affected my
knees and so eventually startedinterfering with sports and I
couldn't play for a while umteam sports and had to find some

(05:39):
other things to do that didn'tbother my knees as much, and
that's part of the way that Istarted to get into outdoor
activities, which is how I wasreally introduced to some of
these incredible landscapes thatwe have here in Utah and that
piqued my interest inenvironmental issues.
Spending time out in theseplaces and has had so much to do

(06:03):
with the most of my career path.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
What were some of those first things that drew you
out there?
Were you mostly just like kindof hiking around, I mean biking?
What was some of those firstactivities?
And I imagine you startedpretty close in the valley and
then expanded from there.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
So the two first activities were really when I
was 12, my dad took usbackpacking for the first time,
and before that I mean the timethat we spent outdoors was
basically the 4th of July andthe 24th of July We'd go.
Our extended family would do apicnic up in Big Cottonwood
Canyon and that was kind of it.
We didn't camp, we didn't domuch outdoors and my dad wanted

(06:40):
to do something to change that.
His sister was a big backpackerso he invited her to come over
and take us backpacking.
We actually went down toSouthern Utah.
We were down in what is nowBears Ears National Monument and
yeah, I was just totally blownaway by the landscape, Didn't
know that those kinds of placesexisted.
Had so much fun doing that.

(07:02):
That was my kind of initialintroduction to the outdoors and
from that started doing otherthings like hiking closer to
home, shortly afterwards startedskiing resort skiing, which
then later on became one of my.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
So your family didn't ski much growing up.
It was your own initiative.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
No, in fact, when I was 13, watching the 13, uh,
watching the winter Olympicsturned to my dad and said how
can you never take us to do this?
And he thought it would be likea one-time thing.
He'd take me and, you know, getit out of my system, cause he
had never seen him go skiing,even though he did some in high
school and college.
Um started at 13 and, yeah, Iloved it from the beginning.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, I feel like, if it's hard to love Utah in its
entirety unless you can ski orenjoy winters to some extent,
but then, at the same time as Igo through my head, there's no
way to love a Utah winter unlessyou're on a mountain, tend to
using gravity to go down it.
So that's fun Cause.
I was always taking that forgranted because I mean, growing
up it was always like Saturdaymornings, grandpa will be here
with the truck at seven, we willload up, we will go, there will

(08:10):
be Gatorades and candy in theback, we will go there.
We usually snowbird.
I mean, we started Brighton,then snowbird, and then, as he
got older, went to snow basincause it was better for him.
But we would always go to the Imean pure, was it pure?
49, the sourdough pizza place.
I had snowbird every singletime, get the same pizzas.
It would be me and my cousinsand then we would come back and
it was just like.
It was just such a core memorythat I take for granted because

(08:33):
a lot of people didn't get tohave that.
Yeah, but then, like on theother side of the coin, because
I was raised in a primarily likesingle parent households where
my mother was working a lot, andeven before then, before my,
before my parents split up, likethere was, I mean, so much
going on that there wasn't onlylike, hey, you know, we got some
family time, let's go, let's gohike, let's go camp, let's go
do this.
I mean, and it's, I think it'sa similar situation you talked

(08:53):
about where we had this onecamping trip every year that we
would go up into the Hyuintas,fish at the same lakes, do the
same hikes, do the same Likegranted, it was great, like it
was me, my cousins, mygrandparents, my aunts and
uncles, and in such a goodexperience.
But at the same time, like Iremember, when I first kind of
moved back to Utah, after movingaway, I was up in the avenues

(09:16):
and I was like walking around,just like hiking in the
foothills, like around the drycreek and up around there.
I'm like how did I never dothis?
because I lived on north cliffdrive there like I was right
there, like all I had to do wasliterally start walking for like
300 feet and I'd probably finda trailhead, and it wasn't until
, I mean, the tldr is like didvan life, saw all these other
beautiful places in the the usand was absolutely floored.

(09:38):
And then all of a sudden I comeback to salt lake.
I'm like this is so much easier, it's so accessible, it it's
all right here.
Then it's like the diversityand and all of that such a such
a fun thing.
So now I have this like hugechecklist of things that I want
to do, not only in Salt Lake butin Utah, which is great because
there's so much to experience,but at the same time, like the
list is so daunting that it's alittle overwhelming.

(09:59):
So I'm so I'm jealous that youwere able to find that in an
early age and find that passionthat eventually drove you to do
kind of what you're doing today.
And so I know that you leftUtah for a period of time.
I mean, where all did you goand what were some of those
tidbits you took away from thoseexperiences?
Let's take a quick break.
Hope you're enjoying theepisode.

(10:22):
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(10:45):
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Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, my first foray out of Utah was my Mormon
mission to Dominican Republicwhen I was 19.
I was away for two years, cameback, finished college here,
went away again to the Northeast, to Boston, for law school.
Came back because I wanted atthat point.

(11:12):
The reason I did law school isI had wanted to work as an
attorney specifically for theSouthern Utah Wilderness
Alliance, working on protectingour incredible public lands.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
I was like, and that's such a specific thing to
do.
I'm like so impressed thatyou're like, okay, so I'm going
to go to law school and I'mgoing to do this specific role
at this specific place.
I mean, what got you to, orwhat was it about that
organization that drove you toit so specifically?

Speaker 2 (11:34):
I mean I told you that I had that introductory
backpacking trip, uh, when I was12, in what is now grand
staircase or, sorry, what is nowBears Ears National Monument
and kind of, from there, startedpaying attention to these
debates and discussions thatwere always in the news about
public lands.
And I mean, the place that Igrew up in was fairly

(11:55):
conservative, so if anybody wastalking about these issues they
were usually talking about, likeyou know, the term would be
those dam enviros.
You know they want to do allthis stuff that doesn't make any
sense.
They're trying to lock peopleout of land and that's what I
grew up around.
And then, you know, found, ah,this is not accurate at all,

(12:17):
this isn't what people areproposing for public lands, and
just really quickly becameenthralled by what Southern Utah
Wilderness Alliance stood forthe lands they were trying to
protect, their vision for howUtah should treat its public
lands and was writing.

(12:38):
You know I remember writingmiddle school reports on public
lands protection.
Just really loved their workand thought that that was.
We needed more advocates towork on protecting public lands.
So that was my dream in goingto law school was to learn how
to be an effective advocate forpublic lands, for the

(13:02):
environment.
So, yeah, I was fortunateenough to come back here and
start working for, uh, sua,southern Utah Wilderness
Alliance, right off the bat.
Um it it was.
You know there were a few bumpsalong the way, but got back
here and worked with SUA for 10years, wow.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
What were some of the highlights there?
I mean things you got to workon um kind of in summary.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
So many, uh you know, while I was there, um, we had a
few big lawsuits that we wesucceeded in stopping some bad
projects.
We also, uh, you know, onething I was proud of is we
worked with two different uh oiland gas companies out in the

(13:47):
Uinta Basin and areas that wecared about to work on some and
negotiate some compromises tohelp protect vulnerable lands.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
I'm sure that has to do with a lot of I mean oil out
there and kind of the frictionthat tends to lie between those
two.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
right, I mean that's the big oil and gas producing
part of the state.
Um, the the last few years ofmy time there were largely spent
working to negotiate a bigpublic lands bill.
Uh, the best way I can describeit is this was the bill that
had to fail so that we could getBears Ears National Monument.

(14:27):
President Obama had made clearto the Utah congressional
delegation that he wasinterested in doing what the
tribes had asked.
And this intertribal coalitionof a number of different tribes
that were asking the presidentto set aside Bears Ears National
Monument, he had told Utah'scongressional delegation tribes
want me to do this.
Of different tribes that wereasking the president to set
aside Bears Ears NationalMonument.

(14:47):
He had told Utah'scongressional delegation tribes
want me to do this.
I'm very inclined to do it, butI'll give you space and time to
see if you can figure this out,see if you can put together
legislatively a package for thisarea.
And the delegation ultimatelydidn't succeed and that's part

(15:10):
of like I said that was part of.
One of the checklist items forus to get the monument was that
we had to have that opportunity.
That was a meaningfulexperience to me that would be
engaged in those discussionsCertainly saw a lot of you know.
It's shaped a lot of mythinking on political dynamics
in part why I think ourpolitical leadership is so bad

(15:33):
on public lands.
Um really had a firsthand viewof that when I was there, um and
, as you know, fed into a lot ofwhat I'm trying to do with O2
Utah.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, I'm sure that's that's a good ask and say is I
bet that all set such a strongfoundation?
Because obviously what you'redoing a lot now is dealing with
probably a lot of those samelegislative bodies, a lot of
those same processes and a lotof those I mean conflicts that
can arise, I mean between I meanlegislation trying to get
things done, people trying tokeep their power, get reelected
and at the same time, try tobalance what the people they

(16:09):
represent want, and so that'sawesome that you were able to do
that for 10 years.
I mean kind of looking at thatexperience in hindsight and
postmortem.
That middle schooler you, orthat pre-law school you, if you
could go back and talk to thatperson, would you?
I mean, what would you say tothem about the experience and if
it met those expectations thatyou had at the time?

Speaker 2 (16:30):
oh, yeah for sure.
Yeah, nothing, I wouldn't sayanything different, so just keep
at it.
Sure it was.
I mean, I, I love that job, Ilove doing that work.
I hear people talk about thesunday scaries.
You know, never once felt thatwhen I was working at sua, like
sunday night would roll aroundand I think, oh, I have to go to

(16:52):
work tomorrow, great, sweet.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, it was always a joy to go into the office do
you still work with a lot ofthose people in sua or kind of
some?

Speaker 2 (17:01):
not enough.
Uh, you know, eventually Ireached a point where I felt
like I had some ideas and kindof feelings that I wanted to
follow and that it was timefortersweet to leave SUA after

(17:24):
10 years than you know, somefeeling of like, oh I'm done or
I reached the end of my linehere.
It was kind of hard to stepaway just because I loved it so
much.
I loved everybody there Iworked with.
I thought the issue was greatyeah.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
So then?
So you had these feelings ofwanting to do something else and
move on.
So what was the next step afterthat?

Speaker 2 (17:46):
Went back to school the old Debbie Madison.
Ties into your.
Yeah, exactly, I had to gofinish high school.
I don't know why I justpictured you waiting for the bus
?
Just back to school.
Yeah, back to school.
And people I really admiredthat I thought were doing

(18:08):
interesting things, had eitherdone business school or done
similar type training and thekind of the way they thought
about problems, were going aboutsolving problems, was really
intriguing to me.
Um cause, law school, you know.
In contrast, law school and lawis a very established, formal

(18:31):
way for addressing issues,addressing problems, and, um, I,
obviously there are greatthings about the law, but there
are also some potentialshortcomings.
And having seen how otherpeople approach big problems, I
thought that I wanted to trysomething similar.

(18:53):
So, yeah, I went back to school, went to business school, moved
to California for that Becauseyou also asked about my forays
in and out of Salt Lake, so thiswas another one, my forays in
and out of Salt Lake, so thiswas another one.
In that 10-year period Imentioned briefly, I did spend a
year working remotely fromCanada, british Columbia,
victoria, british Columbia.
It's a pretty area, yeah,definitely.

(19:15):
Yeah, pacific Northwest, it wasgreat.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Don't get me started about the Pacific Northwest.
It's the only place that holdsa candle to Utah in my opinion.
But yeah, I could talk aboutthat for hours.
So you realize you're in yourcareer, you go to law school,
you see the shortcomings inlet's call it, this whole
process, legal system, and thenyou kind of see business as this
other avenue to maybe solve forthese shortcomings that you

(19:40):
found in law.
I mean, how was that experienceand how did that build upon
that foundation that you hadwith SUA and in law school
previously?

Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, it was incredible.
I thought that, like I said,after 10 years at SUA, there
were kind of two main feelingsand reasons why I wanted to set
out to leave.
One was I had had my firstchild and it really changed how
I felt about climate change.
I would say before that I was,I was kind of worried about it.

(20:10):
I thought it was a big issue,but then, when I had a child,
really became super concernedand at one point, pretty
depressed because I I felt likeit was one thing for me to mess
up the world for myself andanother thing to do it for
somebody else, and somebody elsewho is going to see even more

(20:30):
of those impacts, and didn'tthink that I was doing enough to
address that.
So that was one compunction.
And then the second that we'vetalked about feeling like, yeah,

(20:55):
it's probably time to makemyself a little uncomfortable
and go out and see some new anddifferent things to figure out
how I can be a more effectiveadvocate.
Those were really the twodrivers in wanting to do it.
And I found the business schoolexperience again going back to
law being established.
Business school experienceagain going back to law being
established.
Law school at the highest level.
I think law school is abouthelping people understand how to
avoid risk.
Business school, on the otherhand, is about identifying and

(21:21):
figuring out ways to takeadvantage of risk.
It's a much different riskrelationship.
Yeah, that's kind of the twobiggest differences, or those
are the.
That's the biggest difference,I feel like, between those two
forms of education in a nutshell.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, I almost I don't know why it comes to mind,
but I almost imagine, like somelike Greek statue or something
that like they're always supersymbolic, right, and it's almost
like I know that there is astatue of it, but it's like a
spear in one hand and a shieldin the other, where it's almost
like your law school experiencesthe shield and like almost like
you kind of explained this,like risk averseness and how to
face risk, and then on thebusiness side, it's almost like

(21:57):
this spear of saying, well, howdo we take advantage of this,
how do we be more like offensiveor aggressive with it?
So I mean, in that experience Imean, was your experience in
business school a lot of?
I mean, was any of yourcoursework or any of the
professors you interacted withmore specifically on your
long-term aspirations, or was ita little bit more general than
that?

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Sometimes I felt like a foreigner in a strange land
because most people in going tobusiness school they were there.
The program I did in particularwas designed for people that
were a little bit older thantraditional business school.
They were there.
The program I did in particularwas designed for people that
were a little bit older thantraditional business school
students who had more experience.
We weren't executive MBAs, sothese were kind of mid-career.

(22:37):
It was the mid-career space andsome people were going just to
kind of help them springboard inwhat they were doing.
But a lot of people coming fromspaces like finance, venture
capital, banking, traditionalkind of financial or business
sectors, people in that spacewho were saying you know, I've

(23:07):
come from environmental advocacyand I'm taking this flyer to
see if this has anything for meto learn from.
Uh, so I wouldn't say I did endup taking, when I was in
business school I was about tosay there wasn't you know, a lot
of coursework that was directlydesigned to help environmental
advocates become more effective.
But so much of it was reallyimpactful.

(23:30):
I think in particular thecourses that I took at the
business school that had to dowith interpersonal dynamics,
social emotional learning,leadership, things that people
would often describe as softskills, found incredibly helpful
.
Thought that those courses inparticular had a lot for me to

(23:50):
learn from.
You know accounting I hope myaccounting professor isn't
listening still Like, why did Ieven have to take that?
Was less enthused about some ofthose courses there was, you
know maybe one other one I'llflag.
That was a hard skill.
I took a class called MeasuringImpact, taught by this really

(24:11):
interesting professor who's beenon the forefront of a lot of
research around.
He's actually in the politicalscience space, but Measuring
Impact was essentially learninghow to take this technique of
randomized controlled trials andapply it to all kinds of

(24:31):
different spaces that peoplemight be in.
And in terms of a hard skill andjust thinking around, you know,
aside from my soft skillclasses, that one was probably
the most impactful maybe themost impactful course I've taken
of any of my scholastic career.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
That's interesting Cause go for it.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
Oh, I was going to say cause.
I feel like, at the end youknow I joke sometimes that the
two big questions that arealways swirling around, um, are,
you know, know, existential forpeople and epistemological,
like hat, which is, how do we,uh, how do we identify truth,
what's true, what's real and, uh, you know, is as silly as this

(25:19):
sounds, uh, randomized controltrials, that basic thing you
learned in school, like if youwant to learn something, go out
and do a test, go out and do anexperiment, and you need to have
a control, you need to havesomething that is essentially,
you know, not being manipulatedby you.

(25:42):
It's not being.
You know, this is how the worldworks when the question you're
asking isn't applied to it.
And then your treatment groupand it's certainly in our work
here we have implemented anumber of randomized control
trials, or we try and make, youknow, the best approximation

(26:02):
that we can for some of the workwe do.
It changed my mindset around.
You know, this is another thingthat came out of business
school.
I feel like a lot of problemsthat come up, I don't know the
answer and I can guess, but Ifeel much more comfortable
saying like I don't know theanswer.
Let's try something and see ifthis actually helps us

(26:26):
understand this problem better.
Or let's let's just go out anddo our best guess about how we
can solve this and see if itworks out, and to not be so
worried about knowing the answerup front.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
No, I like that a lot and it kind of reminds me of
kind of two things.
Is one again my last job I hadbefore I'm at now.
We did so I was doingconsulting, but there's also an
impact investing fund.
They're trying to get off theground and we're trying to work
with these entrepreneurs allaround the world trying to solve
all of these issues the socialdevelopment goals from the

(27:01):
United Nations, and like, thehardest thing is like like we
would have to put together thesememos of okay, so here's the
dollar amount of impact thatwe're having.
And it was always this issue oflike okay, so if we're, let's
say, providing dialysis care toum, uh, uh, people with um,
kidney failure in Mexico, howdoes that compare to a place in

(27:23):
Africa that's providing naturalgas via what's it called oh my
God, composting?
And so it's like well, how dowe have a thesis where it's like
one is human lives, one is likefarming, agricultural and
economic growth.
But at the end of the day,anybody you talk to who's going
to write a check wants to knowwhat this check's going towards,

(27:45):
and then also not only wantingto know the double bottom line
but also wanting to know whattheir return is going to be like
and if they're going to get, Imean, those green fuzzies on top
of it.
But then also, second, what itreminds me of is, I feel like
and I'm someone who works, Imean, a lot in data always has
people coming to me asking forquestions, sometimes very
ambiguous and like hey, I thinkthe mature thing of a lot of

(28:05):
things like that is to say Idon't know, because we don't
know everything.
And if someone thinks theyalways have an answer, then
they're probably either lying ordon't know what they're talking
about.
And it always takes me back to,like, the scientific method.
It's so simple, but it works.
In 99% of things.
It's like oh well, what aboutthis?
Be like I don't know, but Ihave a hypothesis that this, and
if we do this, then we caneither accept or reject it.

(28:26):
And if we do like it's, it'ssomething I remember learning in
like middle school science,being like well, this is stupid,
what do you mean?
I'm not going to be a scientist.
And then now here I am justchuckling about my seventh grade
science teacher and it turnsout he yeah, I went to my
daughter's.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
It's funny.
You should say that my daughterjust finished fifth grade Shout
out In the middle of the year.
Yeah, congrats.
She finished elementary school.
She had a science fair and Iwent to the science fair and you
know all the kids, theirteachers, have been working with
them to say let's ask basicquestions and in their case it
was things like which soccerball will bounce the highest?

(29:04):
Which surface allows a soccerball to travel farther?
Why do avalanches happen?
Just these basic questions.
And they literally sat down,you know, did it just the way
you described, had a hypothesis,experimented, and then they had
to, you know, make theirobservation and say was I right?

(29:27):
Was I wrong?
If I was wrong, maybe why?
And like I was so excited I wastelling the kids, like this is
how it really works, like thisis such a good skill, remember
this.
And you know they're probablyall thinking like you're weird,
like no, none of this.
You know, in the same way, itdidn't sink in for us.
Hopefully this youngergeneration it'll stay with them.
But yeah, the science fair, Iwas very excited about the

(29:49):
scientific method.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
for them, big science fair guy.
Yeah exactly Big big sciencefair guy.
Oh, that's awesome.
So you wrap up school inCalifornia I mean, do you stick
around there at all, or is itkind of graduation?
And load up the van.
We're going back to Utah.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Came back I was trying to figure out.
Again, looking back, it seemslike a much more clear path, but
at the time there was a lotmore kind of feeling around in
the dark.
I did know, um, in school, thatone of the big questions I was
interested in and wanted anddidn't feel like was being

(30:26):
addressed.
And if there was something thatI wanted to create or try and
work on, it was this issue ofwhy and I would say specifically
why are Republicans so bad,elected officials so bad on
climate?
America's in this was, andespecially at the time in this
unique place of of developedcountries, of having like a

(30:49):
uniquely bad major party, thatmost people were still you know,
and some of me feels like, well, who cares?
We shouldn't even ask them.
You know, recognizing thereality of science and what was
happening with climate changeand you know a lot of that I
think could be laid at the feetof the Republican Party.
And there are many efforts towork on climate.

(31:14):
There are many efforts to workpolitically, to pass bills Side
note which I would say wereincredibly successful.
I mean, the landscape forclimate action is so different
now than when I was in schooland then it was two years ago
but I kept thinking why is itthat Republicans are so bad and

(31:34):
the environmental communityisn't doing anything to address
that?
And specifically for 45% of thecountry where Republicans will
only get elected.
And you know, maybe oneadditional comment there is
there are some groups out theresaying, hey, we want to work on
Republicans in the environment.
I find them completelyunsatisfying because basically

(31:55):
it's saying these groups say weare Republicans who want to work
on climate and what we'll cheerpeople on for, what we'll be
happy with is if a Republicansays that climate change is
happening and a good example ofthis is here in Utah.
John Curtis, representative, iskind of the poster child of

(32:20):
this.
He'll say that climate changeis happening.
He even formed a bipartisanclimate caucus in Congress.
I am not aware of and haven'tseen anything that he's done or
voted for meaningfully toaddress climate.
And that's the part that I thinkis so unsatisfying about these

(32:42):
current efforts with Republicans.
It's basically like here's apat on the back for saying
climate change is real, but thenyou can turn around and say
that the way we're going tosolve climate change is by
developing more fossil fuels.
That's literally what theRepublicans in Utah say Like oh,
I'm serious about climate andthe way we're going to solve it
is more fossil fuels, americanfossil fuels.
I think that's absurd.
You should be left out of aroom Like if there's a big

(33:04):
problem, offer a reasonable orreal solution, and none of them
have.
That was the issue that I wanted, that I kept thinking about
when I was in business school.
Why is that?
Because I don't think, you know, in these modern times and
again I'm talking about somethings that I think are very
loaded and they have lots ofcultural connotation, but I was
thinking about them more in theway of how do we solve that?

(33:25):
How do we address the fact thatRepublicans in Congress in
particular are so bad on climate?
By my, you know, my estimationthe best way to change where
they were was in how corporateAmerica interacts with Congress.
Nobody's more effective atgetting the legislation they

(33:47):
want than you know these.
Like we talked about thewell-lobbied corporations, maybe
no better example thanpharmaceutical industry that
gets its way with bothRepublicans and Democrats.
I mean, I think it's soastounding of people.
Remember these fights About ayear ago.

(34:11):
Two years ago, there werefights over President Biden was
proposing, among other things,that the government should be
able to negotiate with drugmanufacturers over the prices of
drugs.
I mean, they're a huge buyer.
Usually when you buy a lot ofthings, you come in and say like
I want a deal.
Yeah, us government isspecifically in many cases

(34:33):
prohibited from doing thatbecause the pharmaceutical
industry is such an effectivelobbyist.
You know they come up with allkinds of reasons but at the end
of the day it's absurd.
Every other majorindustrialized country allows
their government to negotiateand they get way better prices
on drugs.
During that time, kyrsten Sinema, senator from Arizona, was

(34:57):
basically, by my estimation,willing to lose her seat to
defend the pharmaceuticalindustry, to defend values that
they thought were just patentlyabsurd.
You know, because I think thepharmaceutical industry was so
effective at lobbying her andothers.
But she was the poster childfor somebody who had really been

(35:18):
persuaded by the message fromthe pharmaceutical industry.
Again, looking at it, let'sjust set aside, you know, is
that right or is that wrong?
I looked at that and saidthere's an effective way to get
legislators to do what you want,and it seemed to me that the
key that the environmentalcommunity had really been

(35:39):
missing with Republicans and theway you change them is you had
to participate in theirelections.
That's what all thesecorporations do.
They donate money to help.
The reason money is importantis if you run for office, like
when I ended up doing this.
If you run for office, yourbiggest task is getting elected,
and to get elected you have toraise absurd amounts of money.

(36:04):
You really do Because there'sno other way to get your name
out there.
There's no other way to get infront of voters, especially in
today's world.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Literally.
It's crazy to me, especiallyworking in tech.
There is a dollar amount to getin front of any person at any
time.
Obviously we think historicallyof this election process and
getting your message out.
It's like, oh yeah, let's gospend millions of dollars on TV
ads.
Every American in the 60s, 70sand 80s is crowding around the

(36:33):
TV during primetime hours andthat'll see it.
And then now it's like we carryon these things in our pockets,
we have these screens in frontof us all the time that we work
from, and all of a sudden it'sjust like it's almost at this
point, just, you can't, youdon't even realize it, but
you'll just see ad after adafter ad and a million of those.
Later you realize like, oh wait, like I was talking to someone.
I was like, oh hey, did you seethat ad about this?
And they're like no, I'm like,oh well, I think they just paid

(36:56):
a million dollars for us to havethis conversation.
And so it's crazy to see howthis kind of of corollary effect
between, like technology and Imean ads and being able to put
anything at any given space tothis power effect that it has on
legislation, and they likecorrelated and grown to this
effect where, to your point,like this power dynamic, has

(37:17):
just kind of ballooned up morethan we ever thought it was
going to happen.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, tech's let's stick with tech for a second.
You know campaigns andelections are to politicians.
What for your funding roundsare going and raising money.
You have an idea, you have aconcept, you have a technology.
You've got to raise money toscale up, to let people know

(37:40):
that that exists, to find buyers, you know, whatever it might be
, it takes that funding so thatyou can expand to a larger
audience, so that you can expandto a larger audience, so that
you can actually succeed.
And that's what elections are.
And it is the best opportunityto actually change how a
politician thinks about an issue.
It's when politicians decidewho their friends are, who they

(38:01):
don't like.
And I think that for too long inthe climate space, the
environmental space generally,we've felt like the power of our
ideas should carry the day Inpolitics.
Sometimes that works, butclearly with climate it wasn't
working.
With Republicans, and electionsin my mind and elections in my

(38:24):
mind were the way that we couldchange that.
And you know not to go too fardown that road.
We can talk about that morebecause it's not just, you know,
throwing somebody out, becausein certain places where
Republicans get elected like yousee there, you know no Democrat
could ever beat them.
So it's not like you're goingto run a Democrat against them,

(38:45):
but you take advantage of thefact that they need help, they
need assistance, that you couldmaybe have Republican primaries
you could have one Republicanbeat a different Republican.
But it's taking that approachthat corporate America uses
their engagement withfundraising, with elections, to

(39:07):
really start a relationship andcreate trust and build
priorities.
And that was the problem that Ikept thinking about in business
school and felt like I wanted to.
I didn't see that being done bythe environmental community.
I thought that we needed to andwas suspicious that if that was
going to work, a place likeUtah was one of the best places

(39:30):
to go pilot that, because anyenvironmental issue we want to
make progress on the state levelhere means working with
Republicans, and it meant thatI'd have to use, I'd have to
test out could a bunch ofenviros, you know, could people
that were saying climate changeis the key problem of our time?

(39:52):
Could we show up in thesereally Republican strongholds
like Utah County and DavisCounty and work with Republican
legislators to get them to dogood legislation to address
problems?
So I had that in my mind, wasthinking about it and that was

(40:14):
part, big part of what broughtme back to Utah.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Totally.
And that's one thing I reallydo love about Utah and I think
the pandemic brought it front ofmind to me, because I mean
flashback to 2020, 2021,.
We have, I mean, the pandemic.
We see politics get so muchmore power and how they're
dealing with everything and kindof all these checks and
balances and I was supergrateful and I think we saw this
both on a local scale and on abroad national scale but these

(40:39):
city, these liberal cities andconservative States started to
have almost like these internalchecks and balances.
So you had these far right ideasand methodologies start to pull
.
Then you have these far leftideologies start to pull and it
kind of met in the middle betterthan a lot of other situations.
That's why you have, I meanSalt Lake, grow a ton.
You had I mean Nashville,charleston, like all of these

(41:04):
places start to have this moreand see this economic growth as
people can kind of grow toeverywhere.
And I think to your point where,when these places where there's
been this gridlock, where it'slike, hey, if you're not a
Republican, then we're not goingto do any, I mean nothing's
going to get done, nothing'sgoing to get by, especially in
these topics that are sorelevant, but especially in Salt
Lake, where we see thispopulation of Salt Lake growing

(41:24):
so much compared to these otherareas and all of a sudden, this
like quote liberal voice isstarting to become so much more
of a voice and people have tostart paying attention and give
more credence to that.
And so so you come.
So you're in Californiabusiness school.
You see these, these issuesthat you want to solve.
Um, is this when you startedout to Utah, are you still still

(41:44):
in your, your development stage?

Speaker 2 (41:49):
No.
So I had been thinking aboutthat and and felt like that was
a problem I wanted to work on.
But then there was a littledeviation.
First I decided while I was inschool that I also wanted to
come back and run for mayor ofSalt Lake city.
Uh yeah, so the I knew at thetime two things.
One, we had a mayor who was, whoseemed to be unpopular, just

(42:09):
because anytime I talked tosomebody from back home they
would bring that up, notprompted by me, like people just
kept saying like ugh, thismayor.
And I thought that'sinteresting.
Clearly there's some high levelof dissatisfaction.
And then, second, while I wasin California, trump was elected
and one of the first things hedid was pull us out of the Paris

(42:30):
Climate Accords.
So it felt like super low timefor climate work.
And I was reading these storieswhile I was in California in
national media about how thestates and cities were picking
up the slack, and routinely theykept mentioning Salt Lake as

(42:51):
one of the places doing that.
And I again thought that wasinteresting.
Salt Lake had this nationalplatform to show that it was
working on climate change.
Now, the specific policies thatSalt Lake was pursuing I didn't
think were very.
I didn't think it was realclimate action.
I thought they were gettingcredit for it, but it wasn't a
very adventurous policy well, no, it was that the city had said

(43:14):
that it wanted 100 cleanelectricity by 2032.
But my time at uh in california, at stanford, which was really
kind of the center for cleanenergy and for climate work, it
became apparent to me that cleanenergy would be achievable way
before that, that this was.
I think people are now startingto understand that clean energy

(43:37):
, once when the sun's availableand when the wind is blowing it
is now uh here in our area, thecheapest way to produce
electricity.
It's cheaper than coal.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
It's like down to the dollar per kilowatt.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yeah, cheaper than natural gas, and I didn't think
people understood that and sojust saw like things are really
going to change on this front.
Somebody could run for mayor ofSalt Lake and have a platform
to talk about climate, to pushbolder policies and actually
have that disseminated to a muchlarger audience than just the

(44:08):
city, than just Utah, so decidedthat I wanted to run for mayor.
I also felt like, hey, thiswill be a good.
In the same way we were talkingabout the scientific method and
just experimenting.
I thought it'll be interesting.
I probably won't win, but I'llget an opportunity to raise an
issue and I will also likelylearn a lot from the experience,

(44:31):
which definitely turned out tobe the case on both fronts.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
What were some of the takeaways from that election
process that then fueled, I mean, what you did down the road?

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Oh, it was so formative.
You know, I, like I we talkedabout, I had the suspicion that
elections were important.
Then, when I ran as a candidate, I realized like, oh, this is
absurd, how important electionsare.
Talk about validating ahypothesis.
In the state of Utah I waseliminated at the primary stage

(45:07):
and here in the state, our racefor mayor of Salt Lake is
probably, you know, outside ofthe governor's race, outside of
federal races.
So Congress, you know, theHouse of Representatives or
Senate, the county mayor's racehere.
Now some of the Salt LakeCounty-wide races are becoming a

(45:30):
bit more expensive, but beyondthat, this is probably, you know
, this is right there as one ofthe most expensive races in the
state.
What did that mean?
That meant I had to spend allof my day on the phone pestering
people, asking them if theythey donate to my campaign,
which was such an eye-openingexperience one, I mean, super

(45:53):
uncomfortable to just call uprandom people and strangers and
say, hey, you don't know me oryou barely know me, give me
money.
I mean it was uncomfortable.
Call good friends and familyand say like, hey, give me money
.
That you know that.
But seeing how critical that was, and this in particular was,

(46:14):
you know the huge thing for me,seeing that when you're just
watching politics as a hobby,when you're armchairing politics
, it's easy to say like, nah, Idon't like these people or I do
like those people, or that's adumb issue or that's a dumb idea
.
When you're running and youneed to raise absurd amounts of
money and you encounter someonelike that that before you would

(46:37):
have, just, you know, not giventhe time of day, all of a sudden
you find yourself listening alot more than you would, because
you need something from themand you can't.
You can't get elected, youcan't, especially in a
competitive race like that,being kind of uh, an elitist
snob.
Frankly, yeah, um, you have tobuild coalitions, you have to,

(47:00):
you have to engage peopleoutside of your immediate circle
, and I found myself being waymore intellectually flexible
with issues.
I found myself, you know,having conversations with people
that I probably wouldn'tnormally and that, to me, was
really a key takeaway from thisLike, oh yes, here's the time
when I need to go out and getsomething.

(47:20):
I need people's votes, I needtheir support, I need their
money.
So, yeah, I'm going to dothings, I'm going to accommodate
them so that I can ultimatelyget into office and do the
things that I want.
And that was such aneye-opening experience to me

(47:41):
from running for office, I mean,in addition to my.
The other thing I'd say is,before that I came from a policy
background.
Policy background is likethinking deeply about a problem
and trying to figure outdifferent ways to solve it.
Elections aren't.
That's not elections.
Elections are show.
Elections are conveyinginformation to people in a
really quick fashion about whatyou'd like to do, what your

(48:03):
disposition is, why they shouldcome to your side and you know,
trying to convey on a campaignthe very nitty-gritty way that
you'd go about trying to getclean energy for Salt Lake,
that's not necessarily acampaign issue.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
And not a hot button issue.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Yeah, campaigns you have to convey to people quickly
.
I want to tackle climate changethis is a key issue for me.
I want to tackle homelessnessthis is a key issue for me and
you have to figure out ways toconvey that information quickly.
And so that was also a biglearning experience.
I felt like maybe the last weekof my campaign I started to get
a hang of it a little bit more,but of course, by then way too

(48:44):
late, right.
But that's another thing.
People that run for the firsttime usually mess it up.
They usually do it wrong.
Probably most of the time theylose, and I knew that going in.
But it was a huge learningexperience to do that.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
That's awesome Because I always I mean, there's
one thing I've learned likerecently in life is very few
things are taught and usuallyhave to be learned, and I feel
like that's a great example ofit.
You could sit down with anybodyand they could say oh yeah,
elections are tough, you have tomeet with a lot of different
people, you have to be able toconvey different messages to
different people and essentiallyget a check from them.

(49:22):
But until you are in that seatand understanding it, it's a
whole different perspective andan experience that I'm sure just
only I mean no so like fueledkind of what you're doing now
and and gave you thatcomfortability and that
experience to help you be moresuccessful where you are now.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yeah, yeah, no, I'm.
I'm really grateful that I didit, because it was one of my.
I would describe it as one ofmy most successful failures.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
I love that term successful failures, because
that's one thing that even me,like I know that in order to
succeed you have to fail andfail and fail and fail and fail
and fail and learn and learn andlearn and learn.
But very few people talk aboutbe like, oh, this failure is
what gave me my success or gaveme what I needed to learn in
order to do so.
And sometimes we think so likemyopically about it, that we

(50:08):
just look at this failure that'son our lap at the moment and
can't process that or getthrough it to the point of force
forward into kind of what we'remore called to be or what we do
need to learn in order to takethose next steps forward.
So I like that successfulfailure, most successful failure
.
So so you have this quote,successful failure from being a

(50:28):
mayor.
You have this experience.
I mean talking with, I meanimportant people, powerful
people, I mean having success ingetting checks from these
people.
That seems so daunting at thetime.
Um, and then you took thatexperience from running for
mayor and pivoted into kind ofan adjacent way with, I would
assume, o2 Utah.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
At this point, yeah, so after that took a little time
to decompress, but it was clearto me there was a lot of
promise behind my idea thatelections meant something.
And now I had gone through theexperience of running for office
and I felt like I saw okay, notonly is this an incredible
leverage point, but I've learnedsome of the issues that we, or

(51:10):
some of the realities of runninga campaign and how, if there
were an organization that camein and started working with
politicians when they wererunning for office, how we could
add value to their campaigns,how we could take advantage of
campaigns to push the issuesthat we wanted to push.
And at that point decided tostart out to Utah and the whole

(51:33):
goal was to make an impact on,specifically, air quality and
climate issues here at the statelevel, working with the
legislature.
But what we were going to dodifferent was show up during
elections both in Republicandistricts, democratic districts,

(51:53):
swing districts and takeadvantage of that time period to
start building relationships,cultivate those relationships
and then give policymakersspecific policy that we wanted
them to implement.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
Yeah, and before your mayor experience would you have
, I would have started withelections, but I wouldn't have

(52:29):
understood why electionsmattered.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
I wouldn't have understood how to effectively
push in elections, how toeffectively work, um, to try and
persuade people that wererunning to work on our issues.
Uh, had I not done that?
But that's a great questionbecause, yeah, it really that
learning experience from runningand failing was so valuable in

(52:56):
creating O2.
Utah really had shaped.
You know how I do this now.
It just would not be the samehad I not, had I not gone
through that.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Awesome.
No, I love that.
And I mean I guess let's kindof focus on kind of OT, Utah
what you're working on today,and kind of the current
landscape of what you're doingin Utah, Because I mean, only
within the past couple of yearshave there gotten a ton of
national exposure to I mean SaltLake and Utah and some of the
threats of climate, and I thinkthere's a lot more ears perked

(53:27):
up to it.
But unfortunately, at the sametime, I feel like we're so
plagued by all of these thingstrying to get our attention of
almost existential crises orthis is the biggest issue that
we almost grow numb to it.
So I mean, if I see someone say, oh my gosh, did you hear about
this?
I'd be like oh, aliens, Like wegot to the point now where we
are like unfazed that thegovernment has said aliens are

(53:49):
real and we have evidence, andwe're like cool, Anyway, do you
see this real?
Do you see this TikTok?
And it's, it's wild to me Cause, like I don't know, I'll never
forget when, um, I think I wasin Washington actually and I
read the New York times articlethat they had about the great
salt lake levels going downlistening to the podcast that
they put out and it's a lot ofvery strong language and like.

(54:11):
Not only that, but there's Imean examples and receipts of I
can't remember the name of thelake that essentially happened
to in California, where theirlake went dry those same sort of
heavy metals at the riverbedand the dust came up and all of
a sudden the city's gone becauseno one can live there, and now
it's almost paints this pictureof oh, we love Salt Lake, but
how much do you love wearing agas mask every time you go out

(54:32):
because these winds will blow up?
And here's all these metals.
And I mean we see thesesolutions, but they're kind of I
mean quote solutions unquote,but kind of would love to hear a
little bit more about just someof maybe the more tactical
things that you're working onand key priorities that you're
focused on.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Just because making pushing legislation, making
change, is difficult and we'reyoung, we've really tried to
stay focused on pushingambitious air quality
legislation.
The great thing about air isthat you get kind of two for one

(55:15):
with that.
Most of the things we do toimprove our air quality have a
similar impact on our carbonemissions, so we've stayed
focused on that.
You know, certainly I'mwatching what's happening with
the Great Salt Lake and where wecan, we try and talk to
policymakers about that.
But what I've seen is that toget good policy, the policy

(55:35):
itself is about 5% of your work.
5%.
95% is building relationshipswith policymakers.
It's, you know, frankly.
I talked about money forpoliticians, but I have a team
here that is doing this fulltime.
They don't.
That doesn't happen unless Iraise money and pay them a

(55:58):
salary and, as I thinkunromantic as it sounds, that's
really a key part of advocacyand making change is money,
again, fundraising.
You know we're dealing with acollective action problem.
This is what we had talkedabout.
Everybody benefits from cleanair, but who's paying money so

(56:22):
that we can have our ownlobbyists, so that we can show
up and compete in that samespace as all these corporations
that don't want the state to doanything about our pollution
problem.
So that's a key part of it.
It just takes a lot of work.
That's a key part of it.
It just takes a lot of work.

(56:42):
You know, there's so much thatthe policy itself is that little
tip of the iceberg above water.
The body of the iceberg is arethings like that the time that
we've spent in elections, thetime that we've spent raising
money, the time that we've spentgoing through the channels that
legislators want for you to beable to come in and talk to them
about issues, and it's just,it's.

(57:02):
There's a lot behind it, youknow, with O2, maybe to give you
make that more concrete.
Essentially, for our first twoyears, I felt like our main task
was just to be consequentialenough in elections that we'd
even matter.
When I say showing up andhelping in elections, you have
to bring time, you have to bringresources, you have to bring

(57:23):
knowledge, you have to bringmoney to help, and that doesn't
happen overnight.
And really before we could workon any policy, we really had to
be showing up in electionshelping people when they were
running for office.
Really for two years before wecould even turn to pushing any
policy.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
No, I like that and it's like it kind of reminds me
of really sports.
I guess the first place mybrain went to is like I mean,
you've watched the jazz play?
I mean a game itself?
Is that 5%?
But showing up every day in thegym and shooting free throws
and running drills, that is that95%.
And for you it's like okay,well, if I'm going to pay my

(58:06):
staff, if I'm going to make animpact, I got to go hit the
phones, I got to go talk to allthese people, I got to develop
these relationships During thatprocess, when and obviously it
dovetails well with your mayoralexperience, or mayoral race
experience of what were some ofthose popular talk tracks, or I
mean issues that you would bringup that would give you the most

(58:27):
success.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Now or when I was running for mayor, maybe both.
When I was running for mayor,there were a few different
issues that I was talking aboutand highlighting, but I think
the one that tended to resonatethe most with my supporters was
how I approached air quality,and you know, this was here's a

(58:51):
great learning experience for me, again coming from a policy
background on air quality.
When I was running for mayor Italked about kind of three steps
I thought that the city shouldtake.
The least consequential interms of actually reducing air
pollution was that I wanted thecity to start a process to try
and move the refinery on thenorth end of town.

(59:14):
It's a big polluter, but movingany one company- and we're
talking specifically about likeBeck Street, yeah, okay, but
moving any one company and we'retalking specifically about like
backstreet, yeah, okay.
Yeah, exactly, I wanted to.
I thought the city should workto get that out of, uh, salt
lake city and it's and I stillfeel that way.
I think it's a terrible idea.
In terms of actual pollutionreduction, though that's uh, you

(59:35):
know, that's a drop in thebucket.
That's one thing that has tohappen.
It's not the biggest thing, butout on the campaign trail, when
I would say I think we shouldmove the refinery, there was
nothing that spoke to peoplemore strongly than that, even
though I felt like the impactwas limited.
And that's kind of where Ilearned about the difference
between elections and policy,and I think a lot of that came

(59:57):
because everybody can understandthat.
I mean, the refinery is in yourface.
People see it, peopleunderstand that here's a
business that's making money byjust dumping its waste on
residents, and that's not right.
It's not.
And you know the rest of oursystem operates as like oh,
you're okay, you got this permit, you can dump it, but like what

(01:00:19):
if you, at your house, youdecided that you, when you went
to throw your garbage out everyday, you were going to throw
half of it in your garbage canand the other half into your
neighbor's yard, you'd feelashamed of yourself.
Anyone should, but for thatrefinery.
That's what they do on a dailybasis and that's what it
communicated to people.
They weren't so, you know,people weren't taking the time

(01:00:41):
to sit down and, like, measureout every ounce of pollution
that was coming out of therefinery and say, well, you know
, that will get us some somepart of the way.
But boy, what you should beproposing is everyone have an
electric car.
What you should be proposing isthis that spoke to people and
that issue.
That was an eye-opener to me tosee that, like communicating

(01:01:04):
important ideas to peoplethrough what you talk to them
about.
And so air quality was the onethat I saw resonated the most
with people, because I was alsotalking about things like I
wanted the city to get to 100%clean electricity by 2023.
And that was the one that I wasthe most energized by.
I thought that that was the onethat we could accomplish most

(01:01:25):
quickly.
That would have the biggestimpact on our carbon emissions,
but I don't think it resonatedwith people as strongly as my
proposal that we move therefinery.
So there you know, oncommunication I learned about, I
saw that air quality tended toland well with the people who
who were my supporters and whovoted for me, um, and I think

(01:01:49):
that also helped them tounderstand how serious I was
about air quality.
And um, because, you know,running in Salt Lake city, every
mayoral candidate is going totalk about air quality.
Everybody's going to say like Iwant to do something about this
.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Because I feel like it's one of those things where I
mean going back to our exampleof risk.
I mean, one of the prime waysto calculate risk is exposure
times, impact.
And if you think about everyUtah, especially in the Wasatch
Front, like if you bring up airquality in the winter, everybody
has an opinion, Everybody rollstheir eyes, everybody wants a
solution, and so I feel likethat is something that resonates

(01:02:27):
so much compared to I mean,let's keep using the example of
the refineries on Beck Street.
I mean, I grew up, so myparents sorry, we grew up in the
avenues.
My grandparents lived in NorthSalt Lake, so we would always do
that drive around 11th Ave,around City Creek, down Beck
Street and over, and everysingle time we'd be like oh,
that's kind of like.
It's just very like the strongjuxtaposition of this

(01:02:48):
neighborhood literally rightthere, one of the most populous
in Salt Lake proper, and thenall of a sudden there's this
refinery right here.
I remember there was one timewhere so my mom's a big runner
and I don't remember why she didthis in hindsight it was kind
of dumb, but she's like, I'mgonna run to our grandparents
house today when we go to this,like family dinner and like I
was I mean, I had been youngerthan 10 so I was like, okay, mom

(01:03:09):
, like you run every day, whocares?
And she called us because Iguess she had a cell phone then
because that's the only way.
But she's like I'm on phone,man, you have a collect call
from mom.
And she's like come pick me up,my lungs are dying.
I can't do this.
And that was like the firstreal, like contextual experience
that I can put my finger on oflike bad air person I know who

(01:03:34):
can run very well and shouldn'thave an issue, is having an
issue.
I don't think this is good.
Well, and shouldn't have anissue, is having an issue.
I don't think this is good,yeah.
And so I think yeah to thatpoint.
I mean it's, it's somethingthat resonates with so many
people and people want asolution.
But then it's you like startthrowing them.
Like some of the solutions, likeI think one thing that in
particular, that's keeping usfrom being this like middle
ground, like tertiary city,secondary city in the U S, to

(01:03:55):
really like growing to be aprimary hub, is public
transportation, like I meantracks is fine, um, I mean if
you use it, it being the time ittakes to take tracks between
driving is so big that there'sno way.
I mean I had a for a lot of thebeginning of 2022 and in late
2021.
Um, I mean, I lived across thestreet from a tracks I mean a

(01:04:17):
front runner station, and I wasworking down in lehigh and I was
like, hey, if I just get anelectric scooter, I can hop on
the train, work on the train,get off the train, have a fun
little scooter ride where I'mjamming out to music for 10
minutes, go to the office andthen do the same.
So I, like net, was wasting 40minutes less a day.
It was being productive becauseI work on the train and, at the
same time, like I felt like Iwas actually doing like my own

(01:04:38):
part to fix it, but at the sametime, that doesn't work for a
lot of people.
Bus system here is not asreliable as we'd like, Tracks
isn't as fast as we'd like and alot of I mean just things that
would keep people from that andif you pull people today of like
, their propensity to use publictransportation be very low.
However, I do think there is ahuge opportunity in utah for
like e-bikes, because I mean,I've lived in seattle for a time

(01:05:01):
where I mean very walkable city, especially if you're living in
the city, and then they havetheir train system which works
pretty well, they have a reallygood bus system, so it's easy to
get around um, but then likehere I mean it's salt lake is
spread out enough where I meanobviously you can't walk um,
especially even just thinkingabout salt lake proper and like
kind of the main hubs of likesugar house and downtown and I

(01:05:21):
think it's like even like therising like maven districts and
over in um, uh, marmaladedistricts, like that's still
very far apart and like there'sno easy way publicly to do so.
But then we have this like ideaof e-bikes where it's like, oh
cool, it's kind of like a bike,well, it's like you can cover
about the same distance as youcan as a car with minimal effort

(01:05:41):
, pretty easily, yeah, andwithout having that huge
sacrifice of time and so.
But it's like that.
I mean the consumer behavioryou would have to change to get
people to buy e-bikes would bewild.
Compared to again like thesenarratives like hey, here's this
refinery that's blowing all ofthis smoke into here.

(01:06:01):
It's very contextual for peopleand doesn't necessarily cause a
huge personal habit change.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Compared to moving a factory, yeah, I mean you gave
me this heads up beforehand.
You want to talk about what aresome things that I thought the
city could do better, what wouldmake salt lake better?
And I think you've hit the nailon the head, for one of the key
issues is the way that we getaround, and I just don't think a
community that's based on uh,cars is ever as good as a

(01:06:32):
community that you can get outand move around by public
transportation, especially bywalking or being on a bike.
Everywhere that I've visited,everywhere that I've lived, that
issue is, I feel, like one ofthe closest connectors to how
much I enjoy living there.
Like, am I dependent on a car?

(01:06:53):
Is the only way that I can gosee a friend to get in a car,
the only way that I can get tothe grocery store?
A car I just don't.
I've found I don't like thosecommunities.
I can go see a friend to get ina car.
The only way that I can get tothe grocery store?
A car I just don't.
I've found I don't like thosecommunities as much as the ones
that you feel like you have aneighborhood and you can get
around, and I do think, yeah,salt Lake City, one of the key
issues we need is better beingable to get around the city in a

(01:07:16):
better fashion than in a car,and I actually, on this one, I
think in particular it's aboutinfrastructure.
One of the keys isinfrastructure.
I ride my bike a lot and when Iwas working at SUA, typically
got to work I was living inSugarhouse, got to work by bike,
just a standard bike and I wasout there.
But it's, you know, I guess,for me, the thing I realized is

(01:07:39):
I recently got an e-bike totransport my girls to two girls.
When I was riding around on abike, you know I was worried
about cars, I was worried abouttraffic, but I'd ride pretty
much any road in the city.
Now that I have my kids on myback, oh, I'm very aware, much
more aware, of what's going onwith cars.

(01:08:00):
What routes I will take?
Most of our streets are notfriendly for bikes.
They're not safe for bikes.
I mean sure, if you're you're adude in your 30s and you're
willing to like ride in and outof traffic, yeah, you can ride
anywhere.
That's not how we're going toget people on the streets like
you.
Need streets that are safe forkids to ride on and we don don't
have that in many places andit's really about we've invested

(01:08:22):
and prioritized ourinfrastructure, is investing in
and designed to move peoplearound in cars, and that's so.
That's how people move around.
I think if you spend time onthings like the S line or now
some of these new bike trailsthat have popped up all of a
sudden, you see, oh, they getused, like once you have a place

(01:08:43):
that anybody can go and feelcomfortable moving along, it's
actually really pleasant, theyget used, and we don't have that
in many places of the city andI think that's probably, you
know, one of the key things weneed to add because, especially
bikes, to prioritize bikes,prioritize walking, prioritize

(01:09:21):
methods of getting around thecity that aren't individual cars
.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
Totally and it's like and I think it's so primed for
it as well Cause I mean over inthe past I mean let's throw out
a number of 10 years at least.
In my experience I feel likepeople have become a lot more
bike friendly in general.
I mean road biking, I feel like, has become a lot more popular.
A lot more people are gettinginto mountain biking.
So it's like, hey, well, youhave this bike as a I mean, a

(01:09:45):
hobby, a recreation.
Now let's kind of pivot a littlebit and also be this way of
commuting um in such a way andlike into your point of like
cities you've lived in, where itmakes you enjoy more and
happiness of life.
I mean like, hey, you'regetting more exercise, which I
mean we don't get into detailsof the correlation of exercise
and happiness, but then you getto experience your community
more, cause, instead of being inthis box where you probably

(01:10:07):
have something playing in thebackground, you're actually
hearing the people talk, you'rehearing the wind blow and the
trees and seeing all of theactual things, which gives us a
better experience in general aswell.
And so, yeah, I love the waythat you hit that Cause, like
when I was in Seattle I didn'thave a car.
I just, I mean, walked mostplaces.
I mean, they had a lot ofreally good bike and scooter
rentals, so I would do that.
Worst case scenario, I'm takingan Uber, um, but yeah, I like

(01:10:35):
that and I mean I think that's akind of theme in general that I
Lake in general of how we'rethinking about communities and
how people want to have acommunity, and I think the more
opportunity we have to beexposed to people and that
community, the better offeveryone will be.
And what better way for a causeis cleaning up our air, which,
again, everybody has some sortof experience with and a pretty
strong opinion too.

(01:10:56):
So, on top of kind of like theway we get around and the way
our infrastructure works, I mean, what are some of these other
key things that you think needto change in order to get our
air quality or get our cityenvironmentally where we need to
be?

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
I think three of the key issues for Salt Lake City to
be a better city in the future.
One is, yes, transportation howwe get around having it be safe
for people on foot and on bike,even more public transportation
options.
That's a key.
Air quality is another one,because it's one of the biggest
detriments about living here.
I think a third is the cost ofhousing.

(01:11:29):
I mean, the city isunaffordable and I think there
are a lot of things that goalong with housing areas that
become more and more expensive.
Um, you know, I think about Iwas recently living in South
Salt Lake for a little whilewhich is much less expensive.
Uh, there is so much more.

(01:11:50):
Uh, you know, a place where you, where a wider array of people
can live, a wider array ofpeople can afford to open new
businesses.
Just take, you know, I think agood measure on this front is
restaurants.
Salt Lake has some greatrestaurants.
We've got, you know, the reallyhigh-end restaurants we don't

(01:12:13):
have as compared to South SaltLake.
You know, in the neighborhoodI'm in now in Marmalade, we
don't have anywhere near theavailability and diversity of
ethnic food that South Salt Lakedid, because it's really
expensive to try If you're goingto take a flyer and open a
restaurant like South Salt Lakeis a much cheaper option than
Salt Lake and we miss out on alot of things because we've

(01:12:34):
become so unaffordable.
It is also something that youknow.
Salt Lake essentially chasesaway people who are looking, who
are younger, starting families,looking to buy their first home
.
You can't do that in Salt Lakeand we have.
I remember this when I wasrunning for mayor.
We had this big gap inpopulation.

(01:12:55):
My estimation, you'd see,essentially this huge crowd of
20 year olds, early 30 year olds, people who are coming here
after school, could afford anapartment because they were
living there with three otherpeople right, you're splitting
rent that way and so we had arelatively big population and we
had this big population ofpeople in their late fifties and

(01:13:17):
older and this gap in between,like people really couldn't
start families here, and thiswas before things got especially
bad.
So we're missing out.
We're chasing people out of ourcity, missing out on
opportunities because it's soexpensive.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
Yeah, especially when you think about the future.
I mean I don't know why Japancomes to mind the most, but like
they're having.
I mean, their birth rates areso low and the biggest thing for
them is like, oh well, we won'tbe able to take care of our
elderly because we don't havethis population to support it.
And in the same way, when we,if we want to continue this
economic growth in thiscontinual forge of, like Salt

(01:13:55):
Lake, being more of a bigger doton the map than it was, we have
to continually try to drawpeople of all sorts of ages and
backgrounds and especiallypriming the beginning of the
funnel of the youth and gettingthere as well and supporting
those families.
Because I mean, obviouslythere's the build that passed
that gave $20,000 to first-timehomeowners for new builds.
But at the same time, to yourpoint, it's like, oh so you want

(01:14:17):
me to go all the way toHarriman, you want me to go
essentially away from anywherethat I I mean it's probably more
of a personal opinion than mostbut I don't want to go live in
a place that I don't necessarilywant to live in just because
there's a financial incentive.
I want to be able to be where Iwant to be and have an option
to be there and I totally, and Ithink my experience in Seattle
has done something similar andit kind of correlates the two,

(01:14:39):
between public transportationand affordable housing.
Because, like in Utah, I mean,like up until four years ago you
could buy a house in Salt Lakepretty reasonably, most places,
and then now it's gotten soridiculous.
And then interest rates now,even if prices do come down a
little bit, still doesn't makeany sense.
And with Seattle I mean, likeobviously with Salt Lake we're
geographically restrained by themountains, by the lake, et

(01:15:00):
cetera, and it's very similar toSeattle where I mean Seattle
itself is formed on a peninsulaand then kind of another
peninsula, and so I meanobviously you can't build houses
in water.
Actually you can.
There In the South Lake Unionthere's literally houseboats you
can buy, but the only way tosolve that is better
transportation.
So if you are living outside, abetter way to get in, which I
feel like front runner and someof those things do a better job

(01:15:21):
about, but at the same timeintercity stuff is a lot more
difficult.
So it's it's funny how like youstart pulling on one thread of
one issue and it starts tocorrelate to the other and it
all ends up being this kind ofgiant tangled ball of yarn,
that's, I mean, complicated, butat the same time we're
motivated, and getting moremotivated, to tackle some of
these issues more and be alittle bit more aggressive.

Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
See, higher costs there than other places.
But I'm also suspicious thatthe way we go about permitting

(01:16:01):
new construction, therestrictions that we place, we
are a big part of the problem.
We're making things be moreexpensive than they have to be.
And you know again I wouldpoint to political dynamics and
especially I'd think about howelections happen.
You know the fact that Salt LakeCity one very small part I
don't this is certainly not thekey thing that we need to do

(01:16:24):
accessory dwelling units, theselittle mother-in-law apartments
that people can add in the backor, you know, build in a garage
or above a garage.
It's still really hard to do inSalt Lake and I think at the
city level they've gotten hungup on issues like well, we need
to.
You know, people are worriedabout having to compete for

(01:16:46):
parking out on their street andso because of that we're not
going to do in certainneighborhoods we're not going to
add accessory dwelling units.
I think that's kind of anexcuse, but the fact that it's
more important that we havesuper convenience for our cars
than that we have affordablehousing for people and we've
decided that that's a moreimportant issue than adding as

(01:17:09):
much housing as quickly as wecan to address the lack of
affordability here in the city.

Speaker 1 (01:17:15):
Cool Talk about the bill that you recently passed to
help with the bromine levelsand how it's going to make an
impact on Salt Lake citizens.
Yeah, talk about the bill thatyou recently passed to help with
the bromine levels and how it'sgoing to make an impact on Salt
Lake citizens.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
Yeah.
So we had in our legislation aproposal that the state of Utah
should start regulating brominepollution because and I said
this was a really unique Utahproblem Federally there isn't a
standard for bromine emissionsin the air.
There isn't a standard at thestate level because people

(01:17:45):
didn't know that this was suchan issue for pollution and also
it's really not likely to be aproblem in many other places
than here on the Wasatch Front,where we happen to have this
company that's processingsaltwater, so one of the few
places you'd find bromine.
Combined with this, thesemeteorological conditions where

(01:18:10):
you know, as we know, in thewinter you get these conditions
where we don't have stormscoming in or out.
You just have this massive airthat kind of parks itself over
the Wasatch Front and doesn'treally let anything out because
of that super unique situation.
So nobody was regulating bromine.
We had new research saying itwas really impactful for our
pollution levels.

(01:18:30):
So our legislation basicallysaid this is something we should
limit and work to reduce.
Because that wasn't no, it'snot.
The state wasn't doing anythingabout it and the bill we passed
does that.
Creates a pathway for the stateof Utah to create a standard.

(01:18:52):
Start limiting this pollutant,start reducing it.
So that you know we're tacklingsomething that at some, in
worst case scenario, like I said, is making our wintertime
pollution spikes 10 to 25% worsethan they would be.

Speaker 1 (01:19:08):
Yeah, and it's like you said, like the Beck Street I
mean doing removing thatrefinery like maybe 5% impact.
But this, especially when youthink about again the risk
calculation of being impactversus exposure, when you have
these high levels of bromine ina place where it's going to sit
there for a long amount of time,based on how the city sits in
the mountains and the weatherpatterns, it's a pretty bad

(01:19:30):
situation for us, especially inour quality of life and our
health.
Corley's told that.
So, thinking about the linebetween either your middle
school self of dreaming to workat SUA and work on these
environmental processes andstarting, or being in the
mayoral race and starting O2Utah to getting to this place
where you passed legislation, Imean, what was that feeling like

(01:19:51):
?
Kind of feeling like you wereone step in making your dreams
come true.
It's still kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:19:56):
I mean it's really changed how I've thought about
whether, or talking about again,a pollutant that's making air
quality here 10 to 25% worse.
I don't think there's anythingthat I've seen from the

(01:20:29):
legislature in the last fewdecades that even comes close to
such a potential forsignificant reduction a
potential for significantreduction.
So there's a little bit ofshock, like, oh yeah, it
actually worked.
Actually, we got somethingthrough and all that hard work
paid off.
I think we moved on to verymuch an idea of like, how do we

(01:20:56):
build on this?
What's next?
We've got a lot of ideas.
Now we've got to startimplementing.
We have to take what we learnedin that process lot of ideas.
Now we've got to startimplementing.
We have to take what we learnedin that process, which was how
we engage with legislators, howyou start working on legislation
and build on that to do evenmore.
So that's how we've movedforward on this thought.
You know thinking let's takeadvantage of what we've learned

(01:21:17):
to do even more, and certainlylet's take this out to people
and say, hey, come help us withyour support, with your
donations, with you showing up,with you reaching out to
policymakers.
Look, we've seen promise, we'veseen potential.
Come join us, help us continueto make a difference.
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
Yeah, I mean kudos to you for getting that done.
Um, I mean we're all going tobenefit from it, and especially,
like you said when, before youwent to business school, you now
had this daughter and like,wanted the future for her to be
brighter and is so much morerelevant for you, cause, I mean
your life is your life.
But to pass it on to someone youlove, um, and hand them this I

(01:21:55):
mean burning house and say enjoyyour inheritance, compared to
saying, hey, like we're, we'regoing to take care of this house
, that we have this city that welove and move forward.
So so, congrats to all yoursuccess you're having and love
that you're happy with thesuccess you've had, but really
motivated to keep moving forwardand keep, I mean, pushing for
these issues that you're sopassionate about and a lot of
people around here are sothinking about.

(01:22:16):
I mean the future, I mean whatkeeps you here.
I mean I know if there'ssomething I know about david,
it's if I ask him what are youup to this weekend or you have
any travel plans?
I will soon, within the next 10minutes, learn about an obscure
part of utah that I didn't evenknow existed.
So I know outdoors is a bigpart of that for you and and
forming those experiences withyour family um yeah, I mean my,

(01:22:40):
my family and friends here.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
Such an important part of my life and that's one
of the great things about beinghere is having that network.
Uh, you know, brings me a lotof happiness and a lot of joy,
so that's a that's a key thing.
The people that I know and lovehere, uh, part of what keeps me
here.
Another part, big part, is theoutdoors and being in one of the

(01:23:04):
most incredible places reallyin the world, both for an
impressive geography but alsothe amazing thing we have, is
that so close to us are justvast amounts of public lands,
lands we all own, lands that youcan essentially go anywhere,
explore anything, go visit theseplaces, and it's such so few

(01:23:25):
people have that have such anincredible ability to get out
here.
That is one of the key thingsthat keeps me here and, yeah,
I'd love to go out and justexplore public lands, go camp,
visit random corners of thestate, especially, you know, the
less visited, the less I knowabout it, the better, because

(01:23:46):
it's an opportunity to go to seesomething new.
I have continued skiing mainlyresort skiing to to mostly
backcountry skiing and splitboarding my opinion, the best
activity, uh, ever invented byhumans, I will say, uh, split

(01:24:08):
boarding and backcountry skiing,yeah, backcountry skiing, split
boarding, it's the pinnacle,it's the gold standard.
There's nothing better.
It is the pinnacle of of humanmovement and human recreation.
Um, that in the winter, yeah,it's that the the.
There's nothing I would ratherdo than be out exploring a new

(01:24:29):
place in the back country.
Um, we have some of the bestsnow in the world, some of the
best access in the world, soit's a great place to be for
that.
Uh, that kind of takes all ofmy focus in the winter.
Um, dabble a little bit inclimbing.
Uh, you know, also lovebackpacking.

(01:24:51):
Uh, rafting, like taking mygirls out to some of the rivers
here in the States.
So that wealth of outdooraccess and opportunities in Utah
is pretty tough to beat.

Speaker 1 (01:25:02):
What are maybe your favorite three or four places
that you've been in Utah?
Bonus points if it's moreobscure.

Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
Boy, that's hard to answer.
I have so many favorite places.
Just, I would say the last year, some places that I've visited
that I've really enjoyed someskiing in um, both the
Stansberry range and the pilotrange, uh, have been great.
I've I've really tried to andloved getting out to more of

(01:25:34):
Utah's great basin and Westdesert, because there's so many
spaces there that just don't getvisited at all and it's got its
own beauty, its own uniqueenvironments.
I don't want to give away allmy secrets.

Speaker 1 (01:25:50):
You can't give away your spots but that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
Yeah, at a high level .
Those are two places I'll flag.
You know, southern Utah, theColorado plateau, is absolutely
incredible.
There's so many incredibleplaces.
Hard to you know name just one.

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
Totally so.
We'll wrap up with twoquestions.
First question is if you couldinvite someone to be on the
Small Lake City podcast tointerview and hear their story,
who would you want to hear from?

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
Boy, that's a good question.
You know, I think, someoneworth talking to who's pretty
interesting Dustin Buckthall.
He started and has beenbuilding his empire at the front
climbing gym and prettyincredible I mean.
I went from a grad student whokind of on the side went in on a

(01:26:49):
small little bouldering gym andnow has built these incredible
climbing gyms, is expanding, isbuilding climbing walls now
around the country buildingclimbing holds, is kind of
creating a construction companyas well on the side.

(01:27:09):
So pretty dynamic story thatI've watched a lot of like way
back in the day had a pass tothe front when it was just this
little bouldering gym.
Now it's a madhouse.
Yeah, and multiple and you knowthis.
He's built this whole empireand it's pretty impressive.

Speaker 1 (01:27:30):
No, I love that.
And then, lastly, if peoplewant to find out more about O2
Utah or donate or follow you onsocial media, where do they find
you?

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
Yeah, the website o2utahorg.
We're on the socials.
You know how to do that again,O2 Utah.
But sure Love people to comeget involved.
They really do make adifference.
I know these problems thatwe've talked about, like air
quality and climate.
I know that's on a lot ofpeople's minds right now,
watching this record heat acrossthe world and can be pretty

(01:27:58):
depressing, and I hear you, Ifelt it the same thing.
I think an antidote to that isget involved and you do make a
difference.
Again, I've seen firsthand sofew legislators are hearing from
people that they need to dosomething about air, they need

(01:28:19):
to do something about climate.
So if you're concerned aboutthose things, get involved.
We'll help you make adifference.

Speaker 1 (01:28:25):
Yeah, check out the website.
I mean, donate if you can,volunteer if you can.
I know it's a lot of thingsthat we all are passionate about
is protecting this valley andprotecting our health at the
same time, and making sure it'shere for generations to come and
our kids and our kids' kidscontinue to be the place that we
want it to be, but we have toprotect it and maintain it in
order to do so.
Yeah, so thanks, david, forcoming on and excited to keep

(01:28:49):
watching all the fun work thatyou're doing.

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):
Eric, thanks for having me.
I had a great conversation.
I've enjoyed this.

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):
Absolutely Likewise.
Thank you so much for listeningto this week's episode of small
lake city podcast.
Don't forget to like, follow,review, subscribe and share this

(01:29:15):
episode with your friends andwe'll catch you next week.
We'll see you there.

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Vault Episode 2: O2 Utah/ Stewardship Utah - David Garbett

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Vault Episode 2: O2 Utah/ Stewardship Utah - David Garbett