November 4, 2025 • 49 mins
In this high-energy episode Nicky's welcomes productivity powerhouse and best-selling author Donna McGeorge. Get ready to shift how you think about work, life, and results as they unpack the game-changing concept behind Donna's latest book, Red Brick Thinking™.
Donna shows us how removing, rather than adding, can unlock productivity, peace, and progress. From tackling meetings and admin overload to decluttering mindsets and business processes, she brings practical strategies that you can implement immediately. No fluff. Just sharp insights and simple shifts with a big impact.
🔥 Topics covered:
- The Red Brick Thinking™ framework: what it is and why it matters now more than ever
- The hidden cost of "more" in business and life
- How subtraction leads to smart growth
- Spotting the signs of burnout, urgency, and unnecessary noise
- Real-life ways to “red brick” your calendar, meetings, habits, and systems
Whether you're a business owner, leader, or high performer, this episode will have you asking: What can I red brick today?
📕 Grab your copy of Red Brick Thinking here!
Connect with Donna at www.donnamcgeorge.com
Learn more about Nicky at nickymiklos.com
Grab The Growth Code™ here!
Get your a copy of Healthy Hustle: The New Blueprint to Thrive in Business & Life at www.healthyhustle.com.au
Contact: 0403 191 404 | hello@nickymiklos.com
Music by Jules Miklos-Woodley
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello everybody, and welcome tothis week's episode, where we
(00:32):
have the fabulous Donna McGeorgejoining us.
This podcast episode is filledto the brim with so many tips
and tools that you can implementright away to create space in
your day, in your business,whilst still getting results.
From boardrooms to auditoriums,Donna McGeorge sparks a
practical change that lasts.
(00:53):
And this podcast episode was noexception.
Donna is a sought-afterinternational speaker and
best-selling author of 15 books,including the 25-minute
meeting, first two hours, oneday refund.
I've mentioned ChatGPTRevolution previously, and her
latest book, Red Brick Thinking.
(01:14):
Now, Donna is all about helpingleaders, business owners, teams
to cut through the noise, tocreate space and capacity for
what is most important in theirlives.
Now she also has the cred toreally back up her work.
She's been featured in HarvardBusiness Review Forbes, the Fast
Company, and she's been onnational TV.
(01:35):
So whether it's working with 20leaders behind closed doors or
2,000 people in a packedauditorium, Donna is all about
delivering high-energy sessionsfilled with sharp insights,
relatable stories, andimmediately actionable ideas.
It's no jargon, no fluff, andnobody's gonna be checking their
(01:56):
emails while Donna is speaking.
And that is absolutely what shebrought to this podcast
episode.
I'm gonna let you dive straightin.
Enjoy.
Hello and welcome to thisawesome episode.
I am very excited because wehave the one, the only, Donna
McGeorge.
Cube cheering in thebackground.
(02:18):
And I as before we hit record,we thought shit, we better hit
record pretty quickly because wewere going straight into
awesome conversation.
But we were celebrating thefact that you are the first
guest uh for season four SmartBusiness Growth Podcast.
So thank you for joining me.
Speaker (02:31):
Oh I'm honoured, lady.
I'm so honoured to be here.
And any chance to have a yakwith you is always uh that makes
always any good day a good day,if I can do that.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
The feeling is absolutely mutual.
And uh I'm so excited to beable to tap into your smarts,
particularly around this littlebeauty.
Oh my god, look at that.
Speaker (02:53):
Okay, you in.
I did have someone else show mea few tags in their book, but
that's the most amount of tags.
Oh, what's the book I hadtagged?
Um, I think it was uh Tools ofTitans, I think, by Tim Ferris.
And and I it had threesections.
One was productivity, which ofcourse I'm interested in, one
was making money and one washealth.
(03:13):
And the productivity of makingmoney, so many tags.
Not one in the health one.
I skipped that bit.
I skipped the whole bit.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
What about that many tags?
This is awesome because it's sowell-rounded and I'm completely
obsessed.
And for those of you who arelistening and not watching the
YouTube video, you're probablythinking, what the heck is going
on?
I am holding up DonnaMcGeorge's brand new book, Red
Brick Thinking.
Actually, I think I'm an earlyreader.
This is officially at time ofrecording.
Has it been released?
I think I'm waiting for morecopies.
(03:44):
Yeah.
Speaker (03:44):
There was a wee delay of books coming out of um, I
don't know, they're on a slyboat from China or something.
And so there was a delay withthat.
It was due to be released onthe 29th of October.
So whenever this goes to press.
Um now it's probably a lot morelike uh about the 8th or 9th of
November.
And so there are very few.
(04:06):
They are in fact as scarce ashens teeth, those books.
You and you not only are youholding one in your hot little
hand, you've clearly read it andyou've tagged the sh out of it.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Like, I just love it.
Oh, seriously, this is one ofthose books that I will
definitely go back to.
And I'm not gonna lie, I had amoment as I was reading it
going, ooh, I'm one of the firstto read this.
Oh, hello, uh, core need forsignificance fulfilled right
there.
I love it.
So this book, Red BrickThinking, I also have a
beautiful big red box uh herethat it came in with lots of
(04:38):
goodies.
So I appreciate that so much.
Thank you.
Uh and by the time people arelistening to this, it will be so
close to, if not already, um,ready for you to buy.
So even if it's before releaseout, make sure you get in and um
order a pre-copy.
Now, we're gonna talk todayabout why this matters.
And that's that's the that'sthe first question I want to
(04:58):
start with you, um, Donna, isjust to really get an
understanding of first, whatactually is red brick thinking?
To give some context for ourlisteners and our viewers.
Speaker (05:08):
All right, so for those who are watching, here's a
little demo.
So years ago, I I wrote a bookcalled Uh The One Day Refund,
and that was uh several yearsago.
And when I was researching forthat book, I came across this
study um out of the Universityof Virginia, I think.
Um, and it talked about theidea that when we're presented
(05:30):
with problems, we tend to havewhat's called addition bias.
So we add things all the time.
And so I started playing aroundwith this little bridge, and
you can see it's a little bridgethat's a bit crooked, so one
side's higher than the other.
And I started saying to people,how would you fix this little
bridge?
So it's a little, for those ofyou who are listening, it's a
little Lego bridge, one leg ishigher than the other.
(05:52):
And and I would give peopleextra bricks, and 90% of people
would start whacking on brickslike they were auditioning for
the block, right?
They would just start stickingbricks on all over the place.
Very few people thought toremove a red brick.
And so that's where the idea ofred brick thinking came about.
(06:13):
So this addition bias that wehave.
So when we're presented with aproblem, we immediately go to
maybe I need another product,maybe I need another service,
maybe we need to even the phraseadd more value.
So more, more, more.
Whereas the question we couldask is, how do we take away
something that makes it easier?
Is there some friction we couldremove?
(06:34):
Are there some steps in ourcustomer experience that are not
that great?
Is there some things that we'redoing?
You know, you talk abouthealthy hustle as part of what
you do.
Are there some things that areunhealthy hustle that we could
remove?
Or if we want to have healthyhustle, what are we going to
stop doing uh to enable that?
And that's it's kind of whereit came about.
(06:54):
Uh, and that's where the littlered brick idea came about.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I love it.
And even as I was reading thebook, I went on a journey.
So, you know, I'm a big fan ofyour work, big fan of your
books, everything that you do.
And still, as I was reading itat the beginning, I was like,
okay, like I really am so herefor this message and everything
makes sense.
How do we do it?
And I feel like by the end,there was a bit more clarity for
me around actually how can wedo it?
(07:20):
And we'll we'll dive into thata little bit as well, I think,
you know, in this podcastepisode.
We won't give too much awaybecause everyone, you've got to
go get the book.
Uh yeah.
So, what led you to really kindof bring that concept to what
it is today?
Really, because I also hear,see, feel this is this feels
like a culmination of all of thework that you've done.
(07:43):
You know, I can I see bits of,and we've talked before around
some of your other books areamazing tip books and really
practical, actionable.
And so is this, but in adifferent way.
So, why do you think it wasimportant to bring red brick
thinking to the world in thismodern day landscape?
Speaker (08:01):
Wow, okay, there's lots going on in there.
So, first of all, um I'll putmyself, you know, rather
unashamedly in the same class asStephen King.
I'm a huge fan of Stephen King.
He writes a book every year,he's he's just a genius.
Um and he's got a very famousseries.
If you're a King fan, you knowabout the Dark Tower series.
(08:22):
And he says that his every bookhe's ever written at some level
is part of this Dark Toweruniverse.
And so I actually thinkeverything I've ever written
before was part of the red brickthinking universe.
And so I wrote books about25-minute meetings, asking
people to red brick 35 minutesout of their day.
(08:42):
I wrote about the first twohours, asking people to red
brick crap out of their morningso that they could use that
really great time to focus onthings that matter.
And then the one-day refund, ofcourse, was around how do we
remove 15% uh of our of our, Idon't know, waste and clutter to
create space and a buffer forourselves.
(09:03):
Prior to that, I always usedto, I mean, I wrote books about
how to train trainers andpresentation skills.
And my very first book wasabout removing PowerPoint.
So it was around don't usePowerPoint, use flipchats or
whiteboards or something likethat.
So even way back then when Ididn't even hadn't even really
thought about red brick thinkingor even productivity, I was
(09:24):
still looking at how do youstreamline, how do you make it
easier for for yourself and forothers to kind of get with
whatever program you're gettingwith.
And so why I think it'simportant now is I mean, gosh,
it's getting towards the end ofthe year.
We're coming up to theChristmas frenzy, if you will.
(09:45):
And so not only will we all beout madly shopping for everyone
for Christmas, which is going tojust add more stuff to
everyone's world.
And it's I'm not a Grinch, I'mall good with Christmas cheer.
And so we'll all get a bunch ofChristmas presents.
And then hot on the tail ofthat, bang on the tail of that,
is the Boxing Day sales, whichwe then accumulated a whole
(10:06):
bunch more stuff.
And there's there's someresearch that says by about um
it's about it's about six weeksafterwards, so Valentine's Day,
by about Valentine's Day, it'swhat like around that time of
the busiest times at the dump,as people then have to start
shedding all the stuff becausethey bought all the stuff.
And so I think it's importantbecause we are in a more
epidemic, we just buy more stuffall the time.
(10:28):
And we have burnout is a thing,right?
People are overwhelmed,overworked, over it,
over-stimulated.
So I reckon taking a pause andgoing, what could I take away?
I reckon the timing's reallyright for this.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I couldn't agree more.
And that's another thing Ireally love about the red brick
revolution, is that it really isacross all areas of life.
So as I'm reading this, I'mthinking, right, how can I apply
it?
What can I share with myclients?
Which, of course, clients thatare listening and watching,
you'll obviously be getting acopy of this from me.
And what can I, you know, whatcan we work on together?
(11:06):
But then even I started lookingaround going, right, I've got
to go through that basket thatI've been avoiding going
throughing to remove thatclutter, because that's
something even that I rememberhearing you say ages ago around
it is it's that clutter of mind,space, energy, and the stuff
that's in our house really hasan impact around that.
Speaker (11:25):
Um that's not new thinking, right?
Mari Kondo's been making traptons of money around that idea
for a really long time.
And I think at some level weall do, but but we agree that
yes, there's not many peoplethat say, no, I want to hang on
to my clutter.
Well, probably have a pathologyaround that.
But anywho, um differentpodcasts, a whole different
(11:46):
topic for a whole differentconversation.
Um but what we typically do iswe wait for a crisis.
We wait for our wardrobe to beoverwhelmed, we wait for the
guest that suddenly needs to useour guest room and there's no
room in there.
We wait until our garage isjust bulging at the seams, and
then we go, we should dosomething about this.
(12:07):
So red brick thinking suggeststhat we should be thinking about
this all the time.
So I'm I'm organizing an eventat the moment, and once a week
we get together with the crewthat is putting it together and
and we do our run through ourrun sheet and we run through all
the bits and pieces that we'redoing.
And every single time we redbrick something.
You know, whether it's an idea,someone says, Oh no, why don't
(12:30):
we do this?
And we talk about it for a bit,we go, nah, nah, let's just red
brick that, or we go, here'swhat we had planned to do, but
suddenly our agenda's looking alittle tight.
What can we red brick out ofthis?
And so it's now become part ofhow we speak, how we talk, how
we think.
And I think that's the realpower of it.
Don't wait, you know, if you'rea leader, don't wait till your
team's drowning.
(12:51):
You know, on your next planningday, what are our priorities
and what are we going to stopdoing to make space for that?
unknown (12:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, I love that.
And also the distinctionbetween little R and big R.
So again, I think that's what'sreally, you know, I find it's
really, really interesting andtimely.
So, and you would be very proudof me, Donna, because today, my
lunch, like I like to catch upwith my mom online for lunch
every now and then.
Um, and it finished it abouthalf an hour earlier.
(13:20):
And so I was like, you knowwhat, I'm not gonna fill that
space up.
Donna, we'd be so proud.
Yes, don't fill it up ifthere's a cancellation.
Um, and so instead I laid inthe hammock and I actually
stopped and I realized, and Iactually did the maths, I have
been, apart from sleeping, Ihave been non-going non-stop
going for the last 42 hours.
Now, some of that is awesomestuff, riding my bike, walking
(13:42):
the dogs, yoga, dance, amazingwork, all of that.
But I hadn't paused and itreally got me to reflect because
I I'm not used to that feelingthese days.
I'm actually really good withthe micro moments, the space
that we've talked about.
Um, but it actually was reallyinteresting to reflect because I
realized a couple of things.
One, I haven't felt like thatfor a while.
So, you know, alarm, alarm,make sure that I don't fall into
(14:06):
that habit.
But two, I think a big thingthat stops people from um red
bricking or creating space ornot filling up is this fear of
what's gonna happen if I stop.
The feeling I had was my energystarted to drop.
And I was like, oh no, if Ikeep going, my energy will stay
good.
Or, you know, it's that busy weget caught in that busy sort of
(14:27):
trap.
So again, I think it's reallyamazing timing, and we know the
burnout stats, and and you know,we talk about hustle.
Everyone, there's a wholechapter on unhealthy, how to
spot unhealthy hustle, andthat's a big uh brick that we
can read brick.
But what's your thoughts onthis whole factor around a big
barrier is fear around stoppingfor for all the multitudes of
(14:49):
reasons?
What's your thoughts on andwhat would you say to somebody
that can resonate with this thisconversation?
Speaker (14:55):
So, you know, the idea of first of all, people worry
about stopping.
You just named one that wasreally interesting.
If I don't maintain thisenergy, if I don't keep going,
what if it runs out?
Now, first of all, that's sucha false economy, right?
Because you can't maintain ituntil you rest, you know?
And for many of the things.
Right?
Yes, well, of course it's gonnadrop much sooner if you don't
(15:17):
take a break.
Yes.
And you know, so getting a goodnight's sleep goes part way
towards doing that.
But um, one of the things Italked about in one of my other
books was something called the15% rule, which is instead of
being 100% on 100% of the time,we try to operate the whole day
at about 85%.
And so it's it's very hard tosay how specifically do you do
that.
(15:37):
Now it's easy in your calendar,you just block out an extra
hour in your day so you're not,you know, back to back meetings.
But for me, it's like, youknow, it's nearly a made-up
thing.
You know, for me to operate at85% today, it means that I don't
have back-to-back meetings allday.
It means that I, my to-do listisn't massive, it's just I've
got a couple of things I want toget done.
It means I can have morningtea.
(15:58):
I've got a bit of a ritualwhere I have morning tea with
Steve and then we have lunchlater on.
And so these are the thingsthat, um, when things get a bit
crazy, they're the first thingsthat start to fall out.
And so I try really hard not todo that.
So I just don't try to operateat 85% capacity.
That's the first thing.
Your energy is going to runaway and deplete much quicker if
you don't take a break.
The second thing is ourtolerance for downtime and
(16:21):
boredom is really low.
And so there I just read astudy about this recently where
there's a direct correlationbetween the fact that we just
don't allow ourselves to bebored anymore and we constantly
look for stimulation, whetherit's phones or computers or
television or whatever we'reusing for stimulation.
So we and so we don't everallow ourselves to get bored.
(16:43):
And there's a correlationbetween that and the increase in
mental health issues.
And part of it is because whenwe get bored, quote unquote, in
the olden days, when we beforewe had all these devices, and we
might find ourselves sitting,swinging in a chair or like
sitting in the back garden orwhatever we might be doing, we'd
(17:04):
ask ourselves some of theharder questions in life.
So everything from what am Igoing to have for lunch today,
through to what is the meaningof life?
And we we gave ourselves spaceto talk to ourselves in our
heads.
Whereas we just don't do thatanymore.
We go, go, go, on, on, on.
In fact, one study showed thatpeople would rather give
(17:27):
themselves a mild electric shockthan be alone with their
thoughts.
Oh, that makes sense.
And so this idea that we'reconstantly on our devices and
doing things all the time, andwe never have to have moments of
boredom.
I think that's the real thing.
So I've been trying to trainmyself now.
I'm I'm on this path for that.
Who was the guy?
I mentioned him in my book, I'mjust having a mental blank now.
(17:48):
The guy that um went and did anabsolute uh detox.
He went into a cabin in themountains.
Yeah, went and did uh detox inthe mountains, and he said the
first few days he he was goingnuts.
And I reckon that would be likewhen you do a sugar detox.
Yeah.
If you go a bit crazy becauseit's an addiction that you're
detoxing.
His mind started talking to himin the best possible way.
(18:13):
I'm I'm I haven't done it yet,but I really am thinking about
doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Actually, I've been thinking about doing one of
those silent retreats, you know,10 days.
Ooh.
Um, yeah, I'm and he also talksabout there's some interesting
stats around it's it's theequivalent, you know, back in
the day we used to have anewspaper daily or weekly.
And these days it's theequivalent of having hundreds of
newspapers that is being, youknow, forced.
And there was an interesting, Idon't, oh, that's not in my
(18:41):
marked page.
It probably is somewhere.
But um it was you mentionedsomething, it it's the
equivalent of maybe 16full-length movies that we are
consuming every day.
I mean, we're not wired forthis.
So it's no wonder that we getourselves caught in this
whirlwind and the chaos.
And I guess the big message Ireally, really, really want our
listeners, our viewers to takeaway is, you know, really we're
(19:04):
we're kind of there's two layersof this that I see.
There's the deep work, youknow, understanding why can't I
be with myself or why do I haveto keep filling in?
I remember when I um used towork in corporate, I would have
to ring jewels on my way homeevery single day because I just
could not handle the silence.
Now I have come a very far awayfrom there.
But that's the deeper workaround, you know, what does that
(19:26):
look like?
Or detoxing or disconnecting.
But the thing I really wanteveryone to take away from this
is yes, that part is there.
And there's the smaller,simpler, easier things that you
can get started.
And that's why um throughoutthe book, but even at the end,
um, there's a piece that youtalked about around, you know,
red brick thinking doesn'trequire authorization.
(19:48):
Can you explain what thatmeans?
Because I actually think that'shugely impactful and really
important for people to considerand take away.
Do you mean that, you know, youdon't need permission for it?
Is that the is that the oneneeds perfect and the reason
that I say that is um some ofthe the clients that I work
with, it might be that they'renot the business owner, but
they're the leader.
And they're caught in thisenvironment that is dictated by
(20:10):
the business owner or a seniorleader.
And so they feel they don'thave any control or that it has
to be a big, huge conversationto create some change, or like
you talk about in the book, a20-page business plan.
But actually, how do we giveourselves permission if we're
stuck in an environment that wedon't have total control or
influence over?
Speaker (20:28):
Okay, so if your listeners right now are
listening, here you go,permission from your auntie
Donna, you have permission.
Done.
Tick, we've done that.
So I reckon you you you touchedon small R red bricks before,
small R and big R red bricks.
And I think straight up it'smuch easier for any individual
to go with the little R redbricks or the small R red
(20:49):
bricks.
And these are just littlethings.
Um, you know, it can beeverything from at home.
Everyone's got that box ofcables that they're keeping just
in case for their Nokia phonesthat they haven't used since
John Howard was prime minister.
And they're never going to useagain, but they keep them just
in case.
Or they can't remember what thecable was for, so they keep it
just in case.
I've got cables for Kindleswhen they first came out.
(21:11):
I don't even need them anymore,right?
Yeah.
Relatable.
And it could even be your linencloset or your wardrobe or like
there's small things that youhave control over.
You know, when we were moving,my parents, um my parents have
two beds.
They've got their bed and aguest bed.
Um, and they had 19 sets ofsheets.
Oh, wow.
Who needs that?
(21:33):
And I kept saying for mum, whatdo you need 19 sets of sheets
for?
Just in case.
I said, just in case what?
Under what circumstances areyou gonna burn through 19 sets
of sheets?
Because, oh, we might havevisitors.
Where are they gonna sleep?
We don't need 19 sheets ofsheets, right?
Anywho, so this idea of just incase some of the ones that we
carry for ourselves.
So we hang on to email foldersand notebooks and notes and
(21:59):
history we hang on to just incase I might need to somehow go
back and look at emails from 34years ago to prove that someone
lied in a meeting or somethinglike that, right?
So there's those small ones,and these are ones where you
look at your diary and you go,what meetings aren't adding any
value?
And so, do first of all, it'skind of like do it for yourself
(22:20):
first.
What are the little ones youcan get rid of?
And also, sometimes we putourselves, I think it it feels
like a big R red brick, but itkind of is a little one.
What pressure can you take offyourself?
What kind of rules and ritualsand routines have you set up for
yourself that no one knowsabout, no one cares about, and
wouldn't even notice if youstopped doing it?
(22:42):
Like, do you have a I've got toget to inbox zero by four
o'clock on a Friday?
No one knows or cares aboutthat.
But you put it under putyourself under pressure.
Because the big the the gettingrid of the little ones makes
space for you to think about thebig ones.
And sometimes the big onesmight need a bit more consensus
(23:02):
or discussion, like a zombieproject that's just wandering
around an organization suckingpeople's brains out, that we
might need to stop or a a groupmeeting.
I mean, I remember Shopify,everyone came back from leave
after their summer break, andShopify uh had deleted every
recurring meeting out ofeveryone's diaries.
(23:24):
Now, that's a pretty big uh redbrick.
That's a very big R.
And you know, you know, nearly,you know, 12 months down the
track from that, what's happenedis only about 20 to 30 percent
of those meetings went back in,which frees up so I have time
for people.
And so there might be things asleaders, there there could be
(23:46):
things you could red brick foryour team.
You know, the two-hour weeklywhip meeting that no one cares
about and no one has theircamera on because they're busy
doing their real work while themeeting's going on.
So I'm gonna say start with thelittle R1s first.
I am gonna say your personallife is a lot easier to red
brick than your professionallife, but it has an awesome
knock-on effect around that.
(24:06):
Um, and then make space tostart really thinking about and
analyzing the big R1s.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, I love that.
And so it's this whole piece,it's the 1%, isn't it?
And and a quote to quote DonnaMcGeorge, uh, I love how you
there's a line that you had inthe book, leaders caught in
constant urgency don't lead,they react.
And some examples that you havearound, so that's that urgency
piece.
And you know, I love how youbreak down the types of there's
(24:33):
cultural, stra uh structural,um, emotional red bricks that we
can remove.
And, you know, that's fromurgency.
And and even I literally wrotein my book, boom, exclamation
mark.
Um, when you talk about some ofthe noise red bricks, okay,
ready, ready, everybody?
Can you relate to this?
A detailed report delivered ontime that no one reads, a
(24:55):
well-attended meeting thatdoesn't move anything forward,
or a dashboard that's packedwith metrics that's obscure that
obscure what matters most.
Right?
Like we do this work, and it'sto your point, Donna.
I mean, you wrote this, so it'sall your point.
Um, to your point about umsometimes people don't even
(25:17):
know.
And I love that, you know, interms of the you don't need
permission.
A quick interruption to thispodcast episode.
I'm really curious, do you wantto close more sales in less
time?
If the answer is yes, which Ihope that it is, then you need
to get your hands on the growthcode.
It is going to give you threeproven frameworks and tools that
(25:37):
will help future-proof yourbusiness and scale with clarity.
All you have to do is head downto the show notes and click the
link below.
You can make changes andsometimes people don't even
realize.
But how many meetings are yourocking up to, or how many
reports are you writing?
Or, you know, these examplesare so relatable as key things
(26:00):
or a version of that we canactually challenge and create a
pause.
So, um, by noise as well, ofcourse, we're not talking the
radio or, you know, this awesomepodcast episode, but are there
any other insights aroundparticularly, I think noise and
urgency can really drag down alot of leaders?
Um, do you find that there'skey red bricks that would stand
(26:22):
out?
Also thinking a lot of what wetalk about on the podcast is
smart business growth sales.
So, what do you think?
Is it noise, urgency?
What do you think are the redbricks that are most commonly
holding people back or leadersback in this space?
Speaker (26:35):
Okay, so I'd ask your team, because here's one one
leader that I worked with uh hadjust joined a team and the they
they kept saying andcomplaining about how busy they
were.
They're busy, busy, busy, busy,busy.
But particular projects,deadlines, targets, we're not
getting met.
And his question is, what arethey busy doing if it's not
achieving the things thatthey're meant to be achieving?
(26:58):
And so I guarantee if you spoketo your sales team and said,
what's stopping you from makingmore sales, they're gonna say
admin.
And now I know there's someadmin we have to do.
I know there is.
Um, but I'd be saying to them,what's the kind of admin that's
getting in the way of you doingyour actual job?
There'll be admin, there'll bemeetings, they'll tell you.
(27:18):
So I don't know everyone'sbusiness well enough to be that
specific about it.
So the two piece places youwant to look at is one, when you
talk to people, when do they,when does the energy drop, their
shoulders drop, they're likethey just lose interest in
stuff.
What's the you know, what's thedrag?
You know, they they drag theirtheir feet getting stuff to you.
There, there are a few signs.
(27:39):
And the second one is theperson who's been in your
organization or team theshortest.
So if they've been there,usually about three months is a
good time to do it.
Go and ask them, what are theybewildered by?
All for because they're theones who are brand new in your
business and they're tryingreally hard to be good and do
all the good things, and thenthere's gonna be stuff that you
(28:01):
get them to do, and they'regonna be like, I wonder why we
do this.
They're not judgy or anythinglike that, but they're
bewildered about it.
So ask them what they'rebewildered about, and then sit
on your hands to preventyourselves from defending
whatever it is they'rebewildered by.
So they might, I'm bewilderedby, you know, the slide deck we
have to put together for ourweekly whip meeting, that people
(28:24):
only ever really pay attentionto the the second slide of the
10.
Why do we have to do the other10 again?
And so you're gonna be temptedto say, either because that's
how we've always done it, orthat data's really important, or
something.
Um, so when they tell you thething they're bewildered by,
just go, thank you.
I'll have a think about that.
(28:46):
Right?
Yeah.
Because part of the problemwith identifying red bricks is
the reason we did it in thefirst place was probably really
valid and really legit.
But here we are, five yearslater, the world has moved on
and life is different, and maybethat original reason doesn't
exist anymore, or there's othertechnologies or other ways in
(29:07):
which we're getting theinformation that we don't need
that.
And so the the process forfiguring out Red Bricks is to
spot them, and they're the cluesI've just given you.
Look for drops in energy inyourself as well.
You know, talk to your personthat's been there three months,
question them why do we havethem in the first place?
What was the outcome we weretrying to achieve?
Um, then now, unless you are ina life or death situation, most
(29:31):
of us aren't, unless youaren't, so you can just just
stop them.
Just stop them.
No one's gonna die, just stop.
Don't park it, don't just stopit and see what happens.
Pay attention to what happens,and then I want you to feel it
for yourself and watch othersfeel the relief of not having to
do that thing anymore.
(29:51):
And then spread the word.
Start saying to people hey,we've just had this nice
experience of red bricking this,everyone should be doing it.
So, really, those.
First two are the criticalones.
So spot them and question them.
And then stop it.
And then stop.
Spot question.
You know, and and I reckonthere's so many.
There's a there's a story inthe book about um a UK company
(30:13):
that makes matches, SwanVestors, and they most
matchboxes had two strikingstrips.
It was very common, it wascommon practice back in the day.
And then one day someone said,Well, what would happen if we
removed one of the strikingstrips?
And you know, and so they had abit of a think about that and
went, okay.
And so they did.
No fanfare, no announcement, nobig market research moment, no
(30:36):
chicken with our clients.
They just removed one strip.
And you know what?
Nothing happened.
No one even noticed.
People could still light theirmatches.
No one noticed.
And I reckon there's heaps ofstuff in your worlds that no one
would notice if you stopped.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So stop.
Definitely.
Okay, so any tips on spottingit?
Because that's the that's kindof the trigger point to kick it
to kick started.
What should people be lookingfor?
Um, you mentioned a couple,like drop in energy um for
yourself or for others.
Are there any other kind ofobvious places to start looking?
Speaker (31:15):
Your calendars, straight up.
Um, yep, you're you're alreadyhaving way too many meetings
than you should, and you'respending at least twice as long
as you should be in each ofthem.
So straight up you want to belooking at that.
Um, I would also say any timewhere it's it's because it's
always been done that way.
Right.
So anytime that's the answer.
(31:35):
So if you're training someoneand they say, How can we do it
this way?
Well, it's always been donethat way.
So um, any processes if you hadfor probably more than three or
four years, technology ismoving so fast and the world is
moving so fast that if you'restill doing something the same
way you did it three or fouryears ago, that's that could be
a red brick hiding in plainsight.
Um, where I'd go asking yourcustomers, where are we hard to
(31:59):
do business with?
What, you know, when people getonto our website, if they're
trying to order something orthey're trying to talk to one of
our salespeople, where do wemake it hard for them?
What do they complain a lotabout?
Where do we get feedback aboutthings that don't quite work the
way we'd like them to?
So you're gonna probably haveto go and ask questions of
(32:20):
people because it's gonna bedifferent for so many.
But for me, I I I spot it withmy energy just in my own, like
what when I look at my calendarfor the week and I look at
what's coming up and who I'mhanging out with and what I'm
doing, when you know, what's thedifference between, oh, I'm so
looking forward to that too?
Oh, crap, forgot about that.
Yeah, right.
And so the old crap forgotabout that.
(32:41):
Now, sometimes we've got to dothings we don't like.
No question, right?
I'm not suggesting thateverything's all hunky dory and
roses and Pollyanna-ish andblah, blah, blah.
But they are the ones that I doat least quit.
I spot that and then I questionit and go, now, how come that's
in my diary in the first place?
Why did I say yes to it?
What was my intention?
Fine, I'll suck it up and doit.
Yep.
Or uh note to self, don't dothat again.
(33:05):
Don't ever do that again.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And that's also where that question around if I'm
saying yes to this, what am Isaying no to?
And is it worth it?
Correct.
Is it worth it?
Um, which is really goodbecause sometimes we have to,
you're right, we do have to dothose things.
But the point here is theintentionality behind it.
It's not just getting caught upand swept up into, you know, in
this again, it's the chaos andthe whirlwind without
(33:27):
intentional, deliberate,conscious um thought around I'm
choosing to do this behavior.
And and I think the otherthing, you know, um, if you're
listening, watching, it's aboutagain, start with the little R's
because you will be amazed at,as Donna said, you start to get
this feeling of space.
You start to, you know, I hadthat 20 minutes in the hammock.
I a hundred percent have moreenergy now than if I would have
(33:50):
gone, right, I've got 20minutes.
What am I gonna do?
I've got to fill it withsomething else.
So I'm like, oh yeah, I feelpretty good.
I may have fallen asleep acouple of times as well.
Nothing wrong with the day nap,people.
Um, so it's those littlethings, then we start to have
different energy, and peoplewill notice that as well around
you.
Speaker (34:08):
Absolutely, and they'll start to take their cue from
you, right?
So I'm gonna say, don'tovercomplicate this.
Don't go for, you know, thebiggest red brick you can find.
It's the little ones, it'slittle things like tidying up
your disc.
Um, my sister did a campaign, Ithink it was some challenge she
signed up for, which was 40bags in 40 days.
(34:28):
And the bags could be any size,but she had to remove things
from her house.
So it could be a little Ziplocbag of old medications or
something like that from herbox, or it could be just one
lipstick that she didn't uh useanymore, or it could have been a
bag of clothes or you know,out-of-date stuff in your
pantry, stuff like that.
So I reckon I'm I'm justlooking around my desk right
(34:51):
now, thinking, I reckon I couldprobably have a crack at 40.
Even I, you just accumulatestuff over time, and I don't
want to wait until I'm movinghouse or it gets really
overwhelming.
It's like, what, you know, whatare half a dozen things I could
get rid of today, just from myworking environment, that will
(35:11):
create space for me.
Yeah.
Because you're absolutelyright.
You said it earlier.
There's a definite relationshipto physical space and then our
mental capacity.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Right.
Well, I know exactly what I'mdoing after this podcast episode
because I'm looking aroundbeing, I've got it, I've got
just a few delightful thingsaround me right now.
And and I even love, you know,again, we're talking this has a
positive, positive effect onmental health, on energy, on
environmental impact.
You know, you we talk aboutBoxing Day sales and and all of
all of that clutter that we'recreating, as well as helping you
(35:44):
really um create efficienciesand get those business results
that you want.
And absolutely, it's so relatedto healthy hustle in that,
yeah, we want to get out there,we want to do the work, but we
need to be deliberate andintentional about it and have
that holy with you.
The right work that will getthat will move the dial quicker,
not understand.
Speaker (36:03):
And I know because this is just the truth for everyone
I know, it's really some newawesome initiative that's gonna
suddenly bring home the bacon.
It's always doing somethingwe've always done, but better.
So not adding something new,just doing the thing that for
(36:25):
some reason maybe we're a bitbored with it or whatever, but
it's always the simple thingdone consistently well that gets
the best results.
It's not some, as you say, somenew CRM or some new um, you
know, fancy spreadsheet that cando a whole bunch of data
analysis.
It's rarely that it's theconversations we have.
So I'm I'm really I'm so withyou on this, that there's an
(36:50):
absolute direct correlation tocreating space to think and
breathe and then gettingresults.
It's there's no question thatthat happens.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Absolutely.
Even an example that comes tomind is oh my goodness, so many
sales people and sales leadersget caught on collateral, sales
collateral.
Actually, the collateral is notdoing the selling, it can
complement it, but as you say,it's that conversation, it's
that connection.
And um, let's red brick it, Itruly believe has to become a
mantra.
Um, I know certainly I'm gonnabring this into my coaching and
(37:23):
my conversations around what canwe actually remove.
And I think even understandingthe whole psychology behind, and
you talk about this in the bookum earlier on, and we're gone
all over the place, Donna.
We've gone to the back, to thefront, to the middle, to the
back, you know, we we got this.
Speaker (37:36):
Well, we all saw the those of you who are watching,
we all saw the stickerseverywhere.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which I actually think is kindof ironic because I definitely
added more to the book with abit of an overwhelming number of
tabs.
But anyway, um it's goodbecause I'll go back to my key
points.
Uh, yeah, so this whole piecearound, you know, understanding
why do we innately go to addingmore?
(38:01):
Because that is actually ourfirst instinct.
Our first instinct is not toremove.
Do you want to just share alittle bit about why do we
exactly goes back to being cavepeople, right?
Speaker (38:14):
So when we were in hunter-gatherer communities, the
more people that werecontributing, the more food and
the more preparation that wehad, and the more we had stored
ready for long, cold, horriblewinters or whatever, the more
likely we were to survive.
So the safety and numbers thingwas very real.
And so, because so that thisidea of accumulation is
(38:36):
certainly not a new one.
My my question that I wanteveryone to ask is what
specifically are youaccumulating and why?
And so is it just so we it it'sso ingrained into us to comfort
eat and to comfort shop and tocomfort consume.
So I get it's not easy.
(38:57):
And so it's just constantlyasking the question: do I really
need that?
Is this really gonna solve myproblem for me?
Is this going to improve myworld the way I hope?
Or is there something wealready have or something we
could take away?
And that would just make it somuch better.
So we are kind of resistingnature a little bit here.
Um that and I mean, we arebombarded daily on social media
(39:23):
about how to have more, be more,do more, you know, right from
the the, I call them theproductivity bros who are up at
four in the morning so you canget more done in your day, you
know, through to the retailers,no disrespect, who are wanting
us to buy their products and andthat we'll be better people if
(39:44):
only we have this particularmouse.
And so even though I've got aperfectly good mouse, this is
the one that I need to go outand buy.
So now I have another mouse.
And I haven't thrown away theother two just in case.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yes, true, so true.
So I are you you just made merealise um I was a productivity
bro uh over the last couple ofdays, and I do not recommend it.
Um back to being my like space,you know, creating Nikki self.
Um and the other interesting umperspective around this that
you talk about is that we'rerewarded, you know, creativity
and innovation up until thispoint, when we think about that,
(40:20):
we think about creatingsomething new, um, adding, and
again, it's that more.
And so I really, you know, I Itake on and I hear the challenge
that you are putting out therefrom the book around, well, what
if innovation and creativity weequally look at?
Hold up, like you say, do weneed to add or could we actually
red break and take somethingabout it?
(40:41):
Right?
Sorry, I get very excited aboutthis.
Speaker (40:44):
Right, no one gets employee of the month award from
saying, let's stop something orlet's kill a project, right?
Yes, having said that, mostdesign thinking involves
subtraction.
Um, in fact, most creativity,the simplicity of anything comes
from what we stop doing or whatwe remove.
(41:05):
I mean, the original RedBricker was Michelangelo, I
removed the bits that weren'tDavid, right?
So when I was researching forthis book and I was looking at
design thinking, it's so oftenpeople um in design, and they're
like really smart, cleverpeople, take things away.
And they have we get the leastamount of moving parts, the
(41:26):
least amount of surfaces, theleast amount of um you know,
manufacturing required to createthe thing, that's what they're
aiming for.
And yet for the rest of us,it's almost like we go, surely
it can't be that simple.
Right?
In fact, we've been soconditioned that addition or
(41:47):
more is better, that when whenyou know, when someone does
suggest something overlysimplistic, we really question
it because we're like, oh,surely it can't be that easy,
right?
Yeah, and so we're doubtful ofit.
Um, so there is a little bit ofmindset and conditioning to
play around with with this.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
So we've got the mind setting and and the challenging
our unconscious beliefs, aswell as there is that
instinctual factor.
And I think that's reallyimportant to mention because uh,
you know, things can be simplebut not always easy.
So if you're finding thatyou're wanting to have a go and
you have a crack, but then youfall back into old behaviors, be
kind with yourself.
Like it's cool.
This is a new um pattern, abehavior, the habit that you're
(42:27):
wanting to create.
So, you know, we are humans,but it's also equally as
important to make sure thatwe're focusing on these areas in
our business and in our life.
Um honestly, Donna, I feel likewe could, well, I got lots of
tabs, so we could just betalking forever about this.
But if there was one thing,actually, before I get to that
question, when when people dofall back into a pattern, so you
(42:50):
know, we go, we're creating anew habit, we've talked about
the reasons why um it can be,you know, a little bit more
challenging if we're notconsciously thinking about it.
What's your suggestion forpeople to do to make sure that
these new habits stick?
Speaker (43:03):
Keep it simple and do one at a time.
Yeah.
Right?
Often when you read a book likethis one, I talk about the red
cultural red bricks andstructural red bricks and
emotional red bricks.
And today I was writing anarticle for someone else and I
thought, gosh, there probablycould have been a section on
operational red bricks as well.
Right?
Because it's a little bit moretactical than maybe some of the
(43:23):
others, but yeah, there'sdefinitely operational red
bricks that exist.
And so the temptation is so inthe book I I refer to 15
different types of red bricks.
And so you read the book andyou go, that's it.
I'm gonna remove one of each,right?
No, no, no, no, no.
In fact, I I often say, people,read it, read one red brick at
a time and ponder it.
Because not every red brick,you might be okay with it.
(43:44):
Maybe you're really good atsaying no to family commitments
and obligations, so you don'tneed to worry about that one.
Or maybe you're really good atyour meetings and your calendar
and you don't need to worryabout looking at some of those
kinds of ones.
And so I would say, pick one,and I'd even go, this is because
I'm a wee bit lazy myself, um,I'd even say pick one that's a
(44:06):
bit easy to do first.
And so um when I wrote the25-minute meeting, I I said to
people, there's a really simplething you can put in every
meeting request, which is by theend of this meeting, it would
be great if, and so, and finishthe sentence.
And so everyone then knows whatthe meeting's about, what the
meeting's for, blah, blah, blah.
And it helps you make adecision about whether you go or
(44:27):
not.
So the so I'm in a state is forsomething as simple as
meetings, A, do that for all theones you're sending out.
But every meeting request youget, ask people to finish that
sentence for you so that youknow whether you need to show up
or not.
Because I reckon, I reckonthere's 40% of your meetings
right now you could probably getrid of.
So start with something small,like questioning your meetings
(44:49):
or how you're spending yourtime.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I love that because there are, I know for me, the
two that really, the two bricksthat really stood out was the
complexity brick and theovercommitment brick.
So they're the two that I butI'll pick one.
Damn it, how do you pick one?
Um, you know, but this is it,we've got to be really, we have
to actually learn to be moredecisive as well about what we
choose to focus on.
Speaker (45:11):
Um I'd even say decisive and discerning.
Right.
And so um I'm fairlydisciplined, so I can, I'm, I'm
fairly good at saying I'm justnot gonna do that anymore, and I
just don't do it.
Um, but I'm very discerningabout where I spend my time and
energy and effort because I knowI don't get to lie in a hammock
(45:32):
for half an hour every day.
Not that you do, but you getthe idea.
Um, I do really am veryconscious of where I'm spending
this incredible resource andsomewhat limited resource that I
have.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
It's so true.
I mean, even if we think aboutthe Oliver Berkman quote, you
know, we have 8,000 weeks onthis earth, how are we gonna
live them best?
Uh, you know, and managingenergy is so important around
this as well.
And, you know, a lot of theconversation I have is around
action with purpose and returnon effort and managing your
energy in between.
So this is such a beautiful wayto really bring that to life.
(46:07):
And I know that it's gonna havea huge impact on so many
people, individuals, teams,businesses.
You know, again, this is gonnahelp you be a healthier, happier
human and to get some reallykick-ass, awesome rocking
business results.
So, are there any finalthoughts, if there was one
message that you wanted to leavewith um the business owners,
the leaders that are listening,anybody that has tuned in for
(46:30):
this episode, what would thatbe?
Speaker (46:33):
Every time you remove a red brick, you're doing
something that your future selfwill thank you for.
And so if you're thinking, whatcould it be?
Maybe, I mean, I think if we'vetalked a bit about meetings, so
a recurring meeting, is there arecurring meeting you could
remove right now?
Because not only does today getthe benefit of that, but future
self gets the benefit of that.
(46:53):
And so I I'd love people to bethinking about what are some
things they could be doing orstopping doing that their future
self is gonna go, that'sglorious.
And it can be anything from, asI said, meetings to you know
what, I'm gonna red brick sugarfrom my diet because I know my
future self will thank me forthat.
So think of something, and andI I always think about this.
(47:15):
What could I do this afternoonthat my tomorrow self will be
really thrilled that I didbecause it just made tomorrow
morning so much better.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
I absolutely love that.
And I think the mantra isabsolutely let's red brick it.
What can we red brick?
I'm definitely gonna go.
Actually, I'm for sure.
My first action is tidying upmy desk and saying to Jules,
what can we red brick?
Uh so also share with us, reachout to us and let us know what
you have decided to red brick toremove to create those
(47:46):
efficiencies, space, and evenjust sometimes that feeling of
peace and lying in a hammock.
Donna, where can people followyou?
I'm gonna put all the links inthe show notes, but uh, you
know, any other um obviouslyyou're gonna Google Red Brick
Thinking and or I'll put thelink in the show notes.
Where else can people find youand all the messages?
Speaker (48:02):
I'm a shameless self-promoter.
You really can't miss me,frankly, on all the major
platforms.
I'm mostly on LinkedIn and alittle bit on Insta.
You'll get me atDonnaMcGeorge.com.
My books are for sale at allthe retailers online and uh, you
know, bricks and mortar.
Um, so watch out for it.
You can pre-order it now.
Uh the day of recording this,the pre-order is still on for
(48:24):
about another 10 days or so uhbefore it will then uh be being
sent out.
So yeah, little luck.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
You'll be able to get a copy of it.
And um also I did mention yourChat GPT revolution book in the
previous episode.
So there you go.
Just come to Donna and Nikkifor all of your business,
business and life needs.
Or maybe not all need, not allyour life needs, actually.
But have an amazing day,everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningus, and I look forward to seeing
you next week.
Hello everybody, and welcome tothis week's episode, where we
(00:32):
have the fabulous Donna McGeorgejoining us.
This podcast episode is filledto the brim with so many tips
and tools that you can implementright away to create space in
your day, in your business,whilst still getting results.
From boardrooms to auditoriums,Donna McGeorge sparks a
practical change that lasts.
(00:53):
And this podcast episode was noexception.
Donna is a sought-afterinternational speaker and
best-selling author of 15 books,including the 25-minute
meeting, first two hours, oneday refund.
I've mentioned ChatGPTRevolution previously, and her
latest book, Red Brick Thinking.
(01:14):
Now, Donna is all about helpingleaders, business owners, teams
to cut through the noise, tocreate space and capacity for
what is most important in theirlives.
Now she also has the cred toreally back up her work.
She's been featured in HarvardBusiness Review Forbes, the Fast
Company, and she's been onnational TV.
(01:35):
So whether it's working with 20leaders behind closed doors or
2,000 people in a packedauditorium, Donna is all about
delivering high-energy sessionsfilled with sharp insights,
relatable stories, andimmediately actionable ideas.
It's no jargon, no fluff, andnobody's gonna be checking their
(01:56):
emails while Donna is speaking.
And that is absolutely what shebrought to this podcast
episode.
I'm gonna let you dive straightin.
Enjoy.
Hello and welcome to thisawesome episode.
I am very excited because wehave the one, the only, Donna
McGeorge.
Cube cheering in thebackground.
(02:18):
And I as before we hit record,we thought shit, we better hit
record pretty quickly because wewere going straight into
awesome conversation.
But we were celebrating thefact that you are the first
guest uh for season four SmartBusiness Growth Podcast.
So thank you for joining me.
Speaker (02:31):
Oh I'm honoured, lady.
I'm so honoured to be here.
And any chance to have a yakwith you is always uh that makes
always any good day a good day,if I can do that.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
The feeling is absolutely mutual.
And uh I'm so excited to beable to tap into your smarts,
particularly around this littlebeauty.
Oh my god, look at that.
Speaker (02:53):
Okay, you in.
I did have someone else show mea few tags in their book, but
that's the most amount of tags.
Oh, what's the book I hadtagged?
Um, I think it was uh Tools ofTitans, I think, by Tim Ferris.
And and I it had threesections.
One was productivity, which ofcourse I'm interested in, one
was making money and one washealth.
(03:13):
And the productivity of makingmoney, so many tags.
Not one in the health one.
I skipped that bit.
I skipped the whole bit.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
What about that many tags?
This is awesome because it's sowell-rounded and I'm completely
obsessed.
And for those of you who arelistening and not watching the
YouTube video, you're probablythinking, what the heck is going
on?
I am holding up DonnaMcGeorge's brand new book, Red
Brick Thinking.
Actually, I think I'm an earlyreader.
This is officially at time ofrecording.
Has it been released?
I think I'm waiting for morecopies.
(03:44):
Yeah.
Speaker (03:44):
There was a wee delay of books coming out of um, I
don't know, they're on a slyboat from China or something.
And so there was a delay withthat.
It was due to be released onthe 29th of October.
So whenever this goes to press.
Um now it's probably a lot morelike uh about the 8th or 9th of
November.
And so there are very few.
(04:06):
They are in fact as scarce ashens teeth, those books.
You and you not only are youholding one in your hot little
hand, you've clearly read it andyou've tagged the sh out of it.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Like, I just love it.
Oh, seriously, this is one ofthose books that I will
definitely go back to.
And I'm not gonna lie, I had amoment as I was reading it
going, ooh, I'm one of the firstto read this.
Oh, hello, uh, core need forsignificance fulfilled right
there.
I love it.
So this book, Red BrickThinking, I also have a
beautiful big red box uh herethat it came in with lots of
(04:38):
goodies.
So I appreciate that so much.
Thank you.
Uh and by the time people arelistening to this, it will be so
close to, if not already, um,ready for you to buy.
So even if it's before releaseout, make sure you get in and um
order a pre-copy.
Now, we're gonna talk todayabout why this matters.
And that's that's the that'sthe first question I want to
(04:58):
start with you, um, Donna, isjust to really get an
understanding of first, whatactually is red brick thinking?
To give some context for ourlisteners and our viewers.
Speaker (05:08):
All right, so for those who are watching, here's a
little demo.
So years ago, I I wrote a bookcalled Uh The One Day Refund,
and that was uh several yearsago.
And when I was researching forthat book, I came across this
study um out of the Universityof Virginia, I think.
Um, and it talked about theidea that when we're presented
(05:30):
with problems, we tend to havewhat's called addition bias.
So we add things all the time.
And so I started playing aroundwith this little bridge, and
you can see it's a little bridgethat's a bit crooked, so one
side's higher than the other.
And I started saying to people,how would you fix this little
bridge?
So it's a little, for those ofyou who are listening, it's a
little Lego bridge, one leg ishigher than the other.
(05:52):
And and I would give peopleextra bricks, and 90% of people
would start whacking on brickslike they were auditioning for
the block, right?
They would just start stickingbricks on all over the place.
Very few people thought toremove a red brick.
And so that's where the idea ofred brick thinking came about.
(06:13):
So this addition bias that wehave.
So when we're presented with aproblem, we immediately go to
maybe I need another product,maybe I need another service,
maybe we need to even the phraseadd more value.
So more, more, more.
Whereas the question we couldask is, how do we take away
something that makes it easier?
Is there some friction we couldremove?
(06:34):
Are there some steps in ourcustomer experience that are not
that great?
Is there some things that we'redoing?
You know, you talk abouthealthy hustle as part of what
you do.
Are there some things that areunhealthy hustle that we could
remove?
Or if we want to have healthyhustle, what are we going to
stop doing uh to enable that?
And that's it's kind of whereit came about.
(06:54):
Uh, and that's where the littlered brick idea came about.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I love it.
And even as I was reading thebook, I went on a journey.
So, you know, I'm a big fan ofyour work, big fan of your
books, everything that you do.
And still, as I was reading itat the beginning, I was like,
okay, like I really am so herefor this message and everything
makes sense.
How do we do it?
And I feel like by the end,there was a bit more clarity for
me around actually how can wedo it?
(07:20):
And we'll we'll dive into thata little bit as well, I think,
you know, in this podcastepisode.
We won't give too much awaybecause everyone, you've got to
go get the book.
Uh yeah.
So, what led you to really kindof bring that concept to what
it is today?
Really, because I also hear,see, feel this is this feels
like a culmination of all of thework that you've done.
(07:43):
You know, I can I see bits of,and we've talked before around
some of your other books areamazing tip books and really
practical, actionable.
And so is this, but in adifferent way.
So, why do you think it wasimportant to bring red brick
thinking to the world in thismodern day landscape?
Speaker (08:01):
Wow, okay, there's lots going on in there.
So, first of all, um I'll putmyself, you know, rather
unashamedly in the same class asStephen King.
I'm a huge fan of Stephen King.
He writes a book every year,he's he's just a genius.
Um and he's got a very famousseries.
If you're a King fan, you knowabout the Dark Tower series.
(08:22):
And he says that his every bookhe's ever written at some level
is part of this Dark Toweruniverse.
And so I actually thinkeverything I've ever written
before was part of the red brickthinking universe.
And so I wrote books about25-minute meetings, asking
people to red brick 35 minutesout of their day.
(08:42):
I wrote about the first twohours, asking people to red
brick crap out of their morningso that they could use that
really great time to focus onthings that matter.
And then the one-day refund, ofcourse, was around how do we
remove 15% uh of our of our, Idon't know, waste and clutter to
create space and a buffer forourselves.
(09:03):
Prior to that, I always usedto, I mean, I wrote books about
how to train trainers andpresentation skills.
And my very first book wasabout removing PowerPoint.
So it was around don't usePowerPoint, use flipchats or
whiteboards or something likethat.
So even way back then when Ididn't even hadn't even really
thought about red brick thinkingor even productivity, I was
(09:24):
still looking at how do youstreamline, how do you make it
easier for for yourself and forothers to kind of get with
whatever program you're gettingwith.
And so why I think it'simportant now is I mean, gosh,
it's getting towards the end ofthe year.
We're coming up to theChristmas frenzy, if you will.
(09:45):
And so not only will we all beout madly shopping for everyone
for Christmas, which is going tojust add more stuff to
everyone's world.
And it's I'm not a Grinch, I'mall good with Christmas cheer.
And so we'll all get a bunch ofChristmas presents.
And then hot on the tail ofthat, bang on the tail of that,
is the Boxing Day sales, whichwe then accumulated a whole
(10:06):
bunch more stuff.
And there's there's someresearch that says by about um
it's about it's about six weeksafterwards, so Valentine's Day,
by about Valentine's Day, it'swhat like around that time of
the busiest times at the dump,as people then have to start
shedding all the stuff becausethey bought all the stuff.
And so I think it's importantbecause we are in a more
epidemic, we just buy more stuffall the time.
(10:28):
And we have burnout is a thing,right?
People are overwhelmed,overworked, over it,
over-stimulated.
So I reckon taking a pause andgoing, what could I take away?
I reckon the timing's reallyright for this.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I couldn't agree more.
And that's another thing Ireally love about the red brick
revolution, is that it really isacross all areas of life.
So as I'm reading this, I'mthinking, right, how can I apply
it?
What can I share with myclients?
Which, of course, clients thatare listening and watching,
you'll obviously be getting acopy of this from me.
And what can I, you know, whatcan we work on together?
(11:06):
But then even I started lookingaround going, right, I've got
to go through that basket thatI've been avoiding going
throughing to remove thatclutter, because that's
something even that I rememberhearing you say ages ago around
it is it's that clutter of mind,space, energy, and the stuff
that's in our house really hasan impact around that.
Speaker (11:25):
Um that's not new thinking, right?
Mari Kondo's been making traptons of money around that idea
for a really long time.
And I think at some level weall do, but but we agree that
yes, there's not many peoplethat say, no, I want to hang on
to my clutter.
Well, probably have a pathologyaround that.
But anywho, um differentpodcasts, a whole different
(11:46):
topic for a whole differentconversation.
Um but what we typically do iswe wait for a crisis.
We wait for our wardrobe to beoverwhelmed, we wait for the
guest that suddenly needs to useour guest room and there's no
room in there.
We wait until our garage isjust bulging at the seams, and
then we go, we should dosomething about this.
(12:07):
So red brick thinking suggeststhat we should be thinking about
this all the time.
So I'm I'm organizing an eventat the moment, and once a week
we get together with the crewthat is putting it together and
and we do our run through ourrun sheet and we run through all
the bits and pieces that we'redoing.
And every single time we redbrick something.
You know, whether it's an idea,someone says, Oh no, why don't
(12:30):
we do this?
And we talk about it for a bit,we go, nah, nah, let's just red
brick that, or we go, here'swhat we had planned to do, but
suddenly our agenda's looking alittle tight.
What can we red brick out ofthis?
And so it's now become part ofhow we speak, how we talk, how
we think.
And I think that's the realpower of it.
Don't wait, you know, if you'rea leader, don't wait till your
team's drowning.
(12:51):
You know, on your next planningday, what are our priorities
and what are we going to stopdoing to make space for that?
unknown (12:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, I love that.
And also the distinctionbetween little R and big R.
So again, I think that's what'sreally, you know, I find it's
really, really interesting andtimely.
So, and you would be very proudof me, Donna, because today, my
lunch, like I like to catch upwith my mom online for lunch
every now and then.
Um, and it finished it abouthalf an hour earlier.
(13:20):
And so I was like, you knowwhat, I'm not gonna fill that
space up.
Donna, we'd be so proud.
Yes, don't fill it up ifthere's a cancellation.
Um, and so instead I laid inthe hammock and I actually
stopped and I realized, and Iactually did the maths, I have
been, apart from sleeping, Ihave been non-going non-stop
going for the last 42 hours.
Now, some of that is awesomestuff, riding my bike, walking
(13:42):
the dogs, yoga, dance, amazingwork, all of that.
But I hadn't paused and itreally got me to reflect because
I I'm not used to that feelingthese days.
I'm actually really good withthe micro moments, the space
that we've talked about.
Um, but it actually was reallyinteresting to reflect because I
realized a couple of things.
One, I haven't felt like thatfor a while.
So, you know, alarm, alarm,make sure that I don't fall into
(14:06):
that habit.
But two, I think a big thingthat stops people from um red
bricking or creating space ornot filling up is this fear of
what's gonna happen if I stop.
The feeling I had was my energystarted to drop.
And I was like, oh no, if Ikeep going, my energy will stay
good.
Or, you know, it's that busy weget caught in that busy sort of
(14:27):
trap.
So again, I think it's reallyamazing timing, and we know the
burnout stats, and and you know,we talk about hustle.
Everyone, there's a wholechapter on unhealthy, how to
spot unhealthy hustle, andthat's a big uh brick that we
can read brick.
But what's your thoughts onthis whole factor around a big
barrier is fear around stoppingfor for all the multitudes of
(14:49):
reasons?
What's your thoughts on andwhat would you say to somebody
that can resonate with this thisconversation?
Speaker (14:55):
So, you know, the idea of first of all, people worry
about stopping.
You just named one that wasreally interesting.
If I don't maintain thisenergy, if I don't keep going,
what if it runs out?
Now, first of all, that's sucha false economy, right?
Because you can't maintain ituntil you rest, you know?
And for many of the things.
Right?
Yes, well, of course it's gonnadrop much sooner if you don't
(15:17):
take a break.
Yes.
And you know, so getting a goodnight's sleep goes part way
towards doing that.
But um, one of the things Italked about in one of my other
books was something called the15% rule, which is instead of
being 100% on 100% of the time,we try to operate the whole day
at about 85%.
And so it's it's very hard tosay how specifically do you do
that.
(15:37):
Now it's easy in your calendar,you just block out an extra
hour in your day so you're not,you know, back to back meetings.
But for me, it's like, youknow, it's nearly a made-up
thing.
You know, for me to operate at85% today, it means that I don't
have back-to-back meetings allday.
It means that I, my to-do listisn't massive, it's just I've
got a couple of things I want toget done.
It means I can have morningtea.
(15:58):
I've got a bit of a ritualwhere I have morning tea with
Steve and then we have lunchlater on.
And so these are the thingsthat, um, when things get a bit
crazy, they're the first thingsthat start to fall out.
And so I try really hard not todo that.
So I just don't try to operateat 85% capacity.
That's the first thing.
Your energy is going to runaway and deplete much quicker if
you don't take a break.
The second thing is ourtolerance for downtime and
(16:21):
boredom is really low.
And so there I just read astudy about this recently where
there's a direct correlationbetween the fact that we just
don't allow ourselves to bebored anymore and we constantly
look for stimulation, whetherit's phones or computers or
television or whatever we'reusing for stimulation.
So we and so we don't everallow ourselves to get bored.
(16:43):
And there's a correlationbetween that and the increase in
mental health issues.
And part of it is because whenwe get bored, quote unquote, in
the olden days, when we beforewe had all these devices, and we
might find ourselves sitting,swinging in a chair or like
sitting in the back garden orwhatever we might be doing, we'd
(17:04):
ask ourselves some of theharder questions in life.
So everything from what am Igoing to have for lunch today,
through to what is the meaningof life?
And we we gave ourselves spaceto talk to ourselves in our
heads.
Whereas we just don't do thatanymore.
We go, go, go, on, on, on.
In fact, one study showed thatpeople would rather give
(17:27):
themselves a mild electric shockthan be alone with their
thoughts.
Oh, that makes sense.
And so this idea that we'reconstantly on our devices and
doing things all the time, andwe never have to have moments of
boredom.
I think that's the real thing.
So I've been trying to trainmyself now.
I'm I'm on this path for that.
Who was the guy?
I mentioned him in my book, I'mjust having a mental blank now.
(17:48):
The guy that um went and did anabsolute uh detox.
He went into a cabin in themountains.
Yeah, went and did uh detox inthe mountains, and he said the
first few days he he was goingnuts.
And I reckon that would be likewhen you do a sugar detox.
Yeah.
If you go a bit crazy becauseit's an addiction that you're
detoxing.
His mind started talking to himin the best possible way.
(18:13):
I'm I'm I haven't done it yet,but I really am thinking about
doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Actually, I've been thinking about doing one of
those silent retreats, you know,10 days.
Ooh.
Um, yeah, I'm and he also talksabout there's some interesting
stats around it's it's theequivalent, you know, back in
the day we used to have anewspaper daily or weekly.
And these days it's theequivalent of having hundreds of
newspapers that is being, youknow, forced.
And there was an interesting, Idon't, oh, that's not in my
(18:41):
marked page.
It probably is somewhere.
But um it was you mentionedsomething, it it's the
equivalent of maybe 16full-length movies that we are
consuming every day.
I mean, we're not wired forthis.
So it's no wonder that we getourselves caught in this
whirlwind and the chaos.
And I guess the big message Ireally, really, really want our
listeners, our viewers to takeaway is, you know, really we're
(19:04):
we're kind of there's two layersof this that I see.
There's the deep work, youknow, understanding why can't I
be with myself or why do I haveto keep filling in?
I remember when I um used towork in corporate, I would have
to ring jewels on my way homeevery single day because I just
could not handle the silence.
Now I have come a very far awayfrom there.
But that's the deeper workaround, you know, what does that
(19:26):
look like?
Or detoxing or disconnecting.
But the thing I really wanteveryone to take away from this
is yes, that part is there.
And there's the smaller,simpler, easier things that you
can get started.
And that's why um throughoutthe book, but even at the end,
um, there's a piece that youtalked about around, you know,
red brick thinking doesn'trequire authorization.
(19:48):
Can you explain what thatmeans?
Because I actually think that'shugely impactful and really
important for people to considerand take away.
Do you mean that, you know, youdon't need permission for it?
Is that the is that the oneneeds perfect and the reason
that I say that is um some ofthe the clients that I work
with, it might be that they'renot the business owner, but
they're the leader.
And they're caught in thisenvironment that is dictated by
(20:10):
the business owner or a seniorleader.
And so they feel they don'thave any control or that it has
to be a big, huge conversationto create some change, or like
you talk about in the book, a20-page business plan.
But actually, how do we giveourselves permission if we're
stuck in an environment that wedon't have total control or
influence over?
Speaker (20:28):
Okay, so if your listeners right now are
listening, here you go,permission from your auntie
Donna, you have permission.
Done.
Tick, we've done that.
So I reckon you you you touchedon small R red bricks before,
small R and big R red bricks.
And I think straight up it'smuch easier for any individual
to go with the little R redbricks or the small R red
(20:49):
bricks.
And these are just littlethings.
Um, you know, it can beeverything from at home.
Everyone's got that box ofcables that they're keeping just
in case for their Nokia phonesthat they haven't used since
John Howard was prime minister.
And they're never going to useagain, but they keep them just
in case.
Or they can't remember what thecable was for, so they keep it
just in case.
I've got cables for Kindleswhen they first came out.
(21:11):
I don't even need them anymore,right?
Yeah.
Relatable.
And it could even be your linencloset or your wardrobe or like
there's small things that youhave control over.
You know, when we were moving,my parents, um my parents have
two beds.
They've got their bed and aguest bed.
Um, and they had 19 sets ofsheets.
Oh, wow.
Who needs that?
(21:33):
And I kept saying for mum, whatdo you need 19 sets of sheets
for?
Just in case.
I said, just in case what?
Under what circumstances areyou gonna burn through 19 sets
of sheets?
Because, oh, we might havevisitors.
Where are they gonna sleep?
We don't need 19 sheets ofsheets, right?
Anywho, so this idea of just incase some of the ones that we
carry for ourselves.
So we hang on to email foldersand notebooks and notes and
(21:59):
history we hang on to just incase I might need to somehow go
back and look at emails from 34years ago to prove that someone
lied in a meeting or somethinglike that, right?
So there's those small ones,and these are ones where you
look at your diary and you go,what meetings aren't adding any
value?
And so, do first of all, it'skind of like do it for yourself
(22:20):
first.
What are the little ones youcan get rid of?
And also, sometimes we putourselves, I think it it feels
like a big R red brick, but itkind of is a little one.
What pressure can you take offyourself?
What kind of rules and ritualsand routines have you set up for
yourself that no one knowsabout, no one cares about, and
wouldn't even notice if youstopped doing it?
(22:42):
Like, do you have a I've got toget to inbox zero by four
o'clock on a Friday?
No one knows or cares aboutthat.
But you put it under putyourself under pressure.
Because the big the the gettingrid of the little ones makes
space for you to think about thebig ones.
And sometimes the big onesmight need a bit more consensus
(23:02):
or discussion, like a zombieproject that's just wandering
around an organization suckingpeople's brains out, that we
might need to stop or a a groupmeeting.
I mean, I remember Shopify,everyone came back from leave
after their summer break, andShopify uh had deleted every
recurring meeting out ofeveryone's diaries.
(23:24):
Now, that's a pretty big uh redbrick.
That's a very big R.
And you know, you know, nearly,you know, 12 months down the
track from that, what's happenedis only about 20 to 30 percent
of those meetings went back in,which frees up so I have time
for people.
And so there might be things asleaders, there there could be
(23:46):
things you could red brick foryour team.
You know, the two-hour weeklywhip meeting that no one cares
about and no one has theircamera on because they're busy
doing their real work while themeeting's going on.
So I'm gonna say start with thelittle R1s first.
I am gonna say your personallife is a lot easier to red
brick than your professionallife, but it has an awesome
knock-on effect around that.
(24:06):
Um, and then make space tostart really thinking about and
analyzing the big R1s.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, I love that.
And so it's this whole piece,it's the 1%, isn't it?
And and a quote to quote DonnaMcGeorge, uh, I love how you
there's a line that you had inthe book, leaders caught in
constant urgency don't lead,they react.
And some examples that you havearound, so that's that urgency
piece.
And you know, I love how youbreak down the types of there's
(24:33):
cultural, stra uh structural,um, emotional red bricks that we
can remove.
And, you know, that's fromurgency.
And and even I literally wrotein my book, boom, exclamation
mark.
Um, when you talk about some ofthe noise red bricks, okay,
ready, ready, everybody?
Can you relate to this?
A detailed report delivered ontime that no one reads, a
(24:55):
well-attended meeting thatdoesn't move anything forward,
or a dashboard that's packedwith metrics that's obscure that
obscure what matters most.
Right?
Like we do this work, and it'sto your point, Donna.
I mean, you wrote this, so it'sall your point.
Um, to your point about umsometimes people don't even
(25:17):
know.
And I love that, you know, interms of the you don't need
permission.
A quick interruption to thispodcast episode.
I'm really curious, do you wantto close more sales in less
time?
If the answer is yes, which Ihope that it is, then you need
to get your hands on the growthcode.
It is going to give you threeproven frameworks and tools that
(25:37):
will help future-proof yourbusiness and scale with clarity.
All you have to do is head downto the show notes and click the
link below.
You can make changes andsometimes people don't even
realize.
But how many meetings are yourocking up to, or how many
reports are you writing?
Or, you know, these examplesare so relatable as key things
(26:00):
or a version of that we canactually challenge and create a
pause.
So, um, by noise as well, ofcourse, we're not talking the
radio or, you know, this awesomepodcast episode, but are there
any other insights aroundparticularly, I think noise and
urgency can really drag down alot of leaders?
Um, do you find that there'skey red bricks that would stand
(26:22):
out?
Also thinking a lot of what wetalk about on the podcast is
smart business growth sales.
So, what do you think?
Is it noise, urgency?
What do you think are the redbricks that are most commonly
holding people back or leadersback in this space?
Speaker (26:35):
Okay, so I'd ask your team, because here's one one
leader that I worked with uh hadjust joined a team and the they
they kept saying andcomplaining about how busy they
were.
They're busy, busy, busy, busy,busy.
But particular projects,deadlines, targets, we're not
getting met.
And his question is, what arethey busy doing if it's not
achieving the things thatthey're meant to be achieving?
(26:58):
And so I guarantee if you spoketo your sales team and said,
what's stopping you from makingmore sales, they're gonna say
admin.
And now I know there's someadmin we have to do.
I know there is.
Um, but I'd be saying to them,what's the kind of admin that's
getting in the way of you doingyour actual job?
There'll be admin, there'll bemeetings, they'll tell you.
(27:18):
So I don't know everyone'sbusiness well enough to be that
specific about it.
So the two piece places youwant to look at is one, when you
talk to people, when do they,when does the energy drop, their
shoulders drop, they're likethey just lose interest in
stuff.
What's the you know, what's thedrag?
You know, they they drag theirtheir feet getting stuff to you.
There, there are a few signs.
(27:39):
And the second one is theperson who's been in your
organization or team theshortest.
So if they've been there,usually about three months is a
good time to do it.
Go and ask them, what are theybewildered by?
All for because they're theones who are brand new in your
business and they're tryingreally hard to be good and do
all the good things, and thenthere's gonna be stuff that you
(28:01):
get them to do, and they'regonna be like, I wonder why we
do this.
They're not judgy or anythinglike that, but they're
bewildered about it.
So ask them what they'rebewildered about, and then sit
on your hands to preventyourselves from defending
whatever it is they'rebewildered by.
So they might, I'm bewilderedby, you know, the slide deck we
have to put together for ourweekly whip meeting, that people
(28:24):
only ever really pay attentionto the the second slide of the
10.
Why do we have to do the other10 again?
And so you're gonna be temptedto say, either because that's
how we've always done it, orthat data's really important, or
something.
Um, so when they tell you thething they're bewildered by,
just go, thank you.
I'll have a think about that.
(28:46):
Right?
Yeah.
Because part of the problemwith identifying red bricks is
the reason we did it in thefirst place was probably really
valid and really legit.
But here we are, five yearslater, the world has moved on
and life is different, and maybethat original reason doesn't
exist anymore, or there's othertechnologies or other ways in
(29:07):
which we're getting theinformation that we don't need
that.
And so the the process forfiguring out Red Bricks is to
spot them, and they're the cluesI've just given you.
Look for drops in energy inyourself as well.
You know, talk to your personthat's been there three months,
question them why do we havethem in the first place?
What was the outcome we weretrying to achieve?
Um, then now, unless you are ina life or death situation, most
(29:31):
of us aren't, unless youaren't, so you can just just
stop them.
Just stop them.
No one's gonna die, just stop.
Don't park it, don't just stopit and see what happens.
Pay attention to what happens,and then I want you to feel it
for yourself and watch othersfeel the relief of not having to
do that thing anymore.
(29:51):
And then spread the word.
Start saying to people hey,we've just had this nice
experience of red bricking this,everyone should be doing it.
So, really, those.
First two are the criticalones.
So spot them and question them.
And then stop it.
And then stop.
Spot question.
You know, and and I reckonthere's so many.
There's a there's a story inthe book about um a UK company
(30:13):
that makes matches, SwanVestors, and they most
matchboxes had two strikingstrips.
It was very common, it wascommon practice back in the day.
And then one day someone said,Well, what would happen if we
removed one of the strikingstrips?
And you know, and so they had abit of a think about that and
went, okay.
And so they did.
No fanfare, no announcement, nobig market research moment, no
(30:36):
chicken with our clients.
They just removed one strip.
And you know what?
Nothing happened.
No one even noticed.
People could still light theirmatches.
No one noticed.
And I reckon there's heaps ofstuff in your worlds that no one
would notice if you stopped.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So stop.
Definitely.
Okay, so any tips on spottingit?
Because that's the that's kindof the trigger point to kick it
to kick started.
What should people be lookingfor?
Um, you mentioned a couple,like drop in energy um for
yourself or for others.
Are there any other kind ofobvious places to start looking?
Speaker (31:15):
Your calendars, straight up.
Um, yep, you're you're alreadyhaving way too many meetings
than you should, and you'respending at least twice as long
as you should be in each ofthem.
So straight up you want to belooking at that.
Um, I would also say any timewhere it's it's because it's
always been done that way.
Right.
So anytime that's the answer.
(31:35):
So if you're training someoneand they say, How can we do it
this way?
Well, it's always been donethat way.
So um, any processes if you hadfor probably more than three or
four years, technology ismoving so fast and the world is
moving so fast that if you'restill doing something the same
way you did it three or fouryears ago, that's that could be
a red brick hiding in plainsight.
Um, where I'd go asking yourcustomers, where are we hard to
(31:59):
do business with?
What, you know, when people getonto our website, if they're
trying to order something orthey're trying to talk to one of
our salespeople, where do wemake it hard for them?
What do they complain a lotabout?
Where do we get feedback aboutthings that don't quite work the
way we'd like them to?
So you're gonna probably haveto go and ask questions of
(32:20):
people because it's gonna bedifferent for so many.
But for me, I I I spot it withmy energy just in my own, like
what when I look at my calendarfor the week and I look at
what's coming up and who I'mhanging out with and what I'm
doing, when you know, what's thedifference between, oh, I'm so
looking forward to that too?
Oh, crap, forgot about that.
Yeah, right.
And so the old crap forgotabout that.
(32:41):
Now, sometimes we've got to dothings we don't like.
No question, right?
I'm not suggesting thateverything's all hunky dory and
roses and Pollyanna-ish andblah, blah, blah.
But they are the ones that I doat least quit.
I spot that and then I questionit and go, now, how come that's
in my diary in the first place?
Why did I say yes to it?
What was my intention?
Fine, I'll suck it up and doit.
Yep.
Or uh note to self, don't dothat again.
(33:05):
Don't ever do that again.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And that's also where that question around if I'm
saying yes to this, what am Isaying no to?
And is it worth it?
Correct.
Is it worth it?
Um, which is really goodbecause sometimes we have to,
you're right, we do have to dothose things.
But the point here is theintentionality behind it.
It's not just getting caught upand swept up into, you know, in
this again, it's the chaos andthe whirlwind without
(33:27):
intentional, deliberate,conscious um thought around I'm
choosing to do this behavior.
And and I think the otherthing, you know, um, if you're
listening, watching, it's aboutagain, start with the little R's
because you will be amazed at,as Donna said, you start to get
this feeling of space.
You start to, you know, I hadthat 20 minutes in the hammock.
I a hundred percent have moreenergy now than if I would have
(33:50):
gone, right, I've got 20minutes.
What am I gonna do?
I've got to fill it withsomething else.
So I'm like, oh yeah, I feelpretty good.
I may have fallen asleep acouple of times as well.
Nothing wrong with the day nap,people.
Um, so it's those littlethings, then we start to have
different energy, and peoplewill notice that as well around
you.
Speaker (34:08):
Absolutely, and they'll start to take their cue from
you, right?
So I'm gonna say, don'tovercomplicate this.
Don't go for, you know, thebiggest red brick you can find.
It's the little ones, it'slittle things like tidying up
your disc.
Um, my sister did a campaign, Ithink it was some challenge she
signed up for, which was 40bags in 40 days.
(34:28):
And the bags could be any size,but she had to remove things
from her house.
So it could be a little Ziplocbag of old medications or
something like that from herbox, or it could be just one
lipstick that she didn't uh useanymore, or it could have been a
bag of clothes or you know,out-of-date stuff in your
pantry, stuff like that.
So I reckon I'm I'm justlooking around my desk right
(34:51):
now, thinking, I reckon I couldprobably have a crack at 40.
Even I, you just accumulatestuff over time, and I don't
want to wait until I'm movinghouse or it gets really
overwhelming.
It's like, what, you know, whatare half a dozen things I could
get rid of today, just from myworking environment, that will
(35:11):
create space for me.
Yeah.
Because you're absolutelyright.
You said it earlier.
There's a definite relationshipto physical space and then our
mental capacity.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Right.
Well, I know exactly what I'mdoing after this podcast episode
because I'm looking aroundbeing, I've got it, I've got
just a few delightful thingsaround me right now.
And and I even love, you know,again, we're talking this has a
positive, positive effect onmental health, on energy, on
environmental impact.
You know, you we talk aboutBoxing Day sales and and all of
all of that clutter that we'recreating, as well as helping you
(35:44):
really um create efficienciesand get those business results
that you want.
And absolutely, it's so relatedto healthy hustle in that,
yeah, we want to get out there,we want to do the work, but we
need to be deliberate andintentional about it and have
that holy with you.
The right work that will getthat will move the dial quicker,
not understand.
Speaker (36:03):
And I know because this is just the truth for everyone
I know, it's really some newawesome initiative that's gonna
suddenly bring home the bacon.
It's always doing somethingwe've always done, but better.
So not adding something new,just doing the thing that for
(36:25):
some reason maybe we're a bitbored with it or whatever, but
it's always the simple thingdone consistently well that gets
the best results.
It's not some, as you say, somenew CRM or some new um, you
know, fancy spreadsheet that cando a whole bunch of data
analysis.
It's rarely that it's theconversations we have.
So I'm I'm really I'm so withyou on this, that there's an
(36:50):
absolute direct correlation tocreating space to think and
breathe and then gettingresults.
It's there's no question thatthat happens.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Absolutely.
Even an example that comes tomind is oh my goodness, so many
sales people and sales leadersget caught on collateral, sales
collateral.
Actually, the collateral is notdoing the selling, it can
complement it, but as you say,it's that conversation, it's
that connection.
And um, let's red brick it, Itruly believe has to become a
mantra.
Um, I know certainly I'm gonnabring this into my coaching and
(37:23):
my conversations around what canwe actually remove.
And I think even understandingthe whole psychology behind, and
you talk about this in the bookum earlier on, and we're gone
all over the place, Donna.
We've gone to the back, to thefront, to the middle, to the
back, you know, we we got this.
Speaker (37:36):
Well, we all saw the those of you who are watching,
we all saw the stickerseverywhere.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which I actually think is kindof ironic because I definitely
added more to the book with abit of an overwhelming number of
tabs.
But anyway, um it's goodbecause I'll go back to my key
points.
Uh, yeah, so this whole piecearound, you know, understanding
why do we innately go to addingmore?
(38:01):
Because that is actually ourfirst instinct.
Our first instinct is not toremove.
Do you want to just share alittle bit about why do we
exactly goes back to being cavepeople, right?
Speaker (38:14):
So when we were in hunter-gatherer communities, the
more people that werecontributing, the more food and
the more preparation that wehad, and the more we had stored
ready for long, cold, horriblewinters or whatever, the more
likely we were to survive.
So the safety and numbers thingwas very real.
And so, because so that thisidea of accumulation is
(38:36):
certainly not a new one.
My my question that I wanteveryone to ask is what
specifically are youaccumulating and why?
And so is it just so we it it'sso ingrained into us to comfort
eat and to comfort shop and tocomfort consume.
So I get it's not easy.
(38:57):
And so it's just constantlyasking the question: do I really
need that?
Is this really gonna solve myproblem for me?
Is this going to improve myworld the way I hope?
Or is there something wealready have or something we
could take away?
And that would just make it somuch better.
So we are kind of resistingnature a little bit here.
Um that and I mean, we arebombarded daily on social media
(39:23):
about how to have more, be more,do more, you know, right from
the the, I call them theproductivity bros who are up at
four in the morning so you canget more done in your day, you
know, through to the retailers,no disrespect, who are wanting
us to buy their products and andthat we'll be better people if
(39:44):
only we have this particularmouse.
And so even though I've got aperfectly good mouse, this is
the one that I need to go outand buy.
So now I have another mouse.
And I haven't thrown away theother two just in case.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yes, true, so true.
So I are you you just made merealise um I was a productivity
bro uh over the last couple ofdays, and I do not recommend it.
Um back to being my like space,you know, creating Nikki self.
Um and the other interesting umperspective around this that
you talk about is that we'rerewarded, you know, creativity
and innovation up until thispoint, when we think about that,
(40:20):
we think about creatingsomething new, um, adding, and
again, it's that more.
And so I really, you know, I Itake on and I hear the challenge
that you are putting out therefrom the book around, well, what
if innovation and creativity weequally look at?
Hold up, like you say, do weneed to add or could we actually
red break and take somethingabout it?
(40:41):
Right?
Sorry, I get very excited aboutthis.
Speaker (40:44):
Right, no one gets employee of the month award from
saying, let's stop something orlet's kill a project, right?
Yes, having said that, mostdesign thinking involves
subtraction.
Um, in fact, most creativity,the simplicity of anything comes
from what we stop doing or whatwe remove.
(41:05):
I mean, the original RedBricker was Michelangelo, I
removed the bits that weren'tDavid, right?
So when I was researching forthis book and I was looking at
design thinking, it's so oftenpeople um in design, and they're
like really smart, cleverpeople, take things away.
And they have we get the leastamount of moving parts, the
(41:26):
least amount of surfaces, theleast amount of um you know,
manufacturing required to createthe thing, that's what they're
aiming for.
And yet for the rest of us,it's almost like we go, surely
it can't be that simple.
Right?
In fact, we've been soconditioned that addition or
(41:47):
more is better, that when whenyou know, when someone does
suggest something overlysimplistic, we really question
it because we're like, oh,surely it can't be that easy,
right?
Yeah, and so we're doubtful ofit.
Um, so there is a little bit ofmindset and conditioning to
play around with with this.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
So we've got the mind setting and and the challenging
our unconscious beliefs, aswell as there is that
instinctual factor.
And I think that's reallyimportant to mention because uh,
you know, things can be simplebut not always easy.
So if you're finding thatyou're wanting to have a go and
you have a crack, but then youfall back into old behaviors, be
kind with yourself.
Like it's cool.
This is a new um pattern, abehavior, the habit that you're
(42:27):
wanting to create.
So, you know, we are humans,but it's also equally as
important to make sure thatwe're focusing on these areas in
our business and in our life.
Um honestly, Donna, I feel likewe could, well, I got lots of
tabs, so we could just betalking forever about this.
But if there was one thing,actually, before I get to that
question, when when people dofall back into a pattern, so you
(42:50):
know, we go, we're creating anew habit, we've talked about
the reasons why um it can be,you know, a little bit more
challenging if we're notconsciously thinking about it.
What's your suggestion forpeople to do to make sure that
these new habits stick?
Speaker (43:03):
Keep it simple and do one at a time.
Yeah.
Right?
Often when you read a book likethis one, I talk about the red
cultural red bricks andstructural red bricks and
emotional red bricks.
And today I was writing anarticle for someone else and I
thought, gosh, there probablycould have been a section on
operational red bricks as well.
Right?
Because it's a little bit moretactical than maybe some of the
(43:23):
others, but yeah, there'sdefinitely operational red
bricks that exist.
And so the temptation is so inthe book I I refer to 15
different types of red bricks.
And so you read the book andyou go, that's it.
I'm gonna remove one of each,right?
No, no, no, no, no.
In fact, I I often say, people,read it, read one red brick at
a time and ponder it.
Because not every red brick,you might be okay with it.
(43:44):
Maybe you're really good atsaying no to family commitments
and obligations, so you don'tneed to worry about that one.
Or maybe you're really good atyour meetings and your calendar
and you don't need to worryabout looking at some of those
kinds of ones.
And so I would say, pick one,and I'd even go, this is because
I'm a wee bit lazy myself, um,I'd even say pick one that's a
(44:06):
bit easy to do first.
And so um when I wrote the25-minute meeting, I I said to
people, there's a really simplething you can put in every
meeting request, which is by theend of this meeting, it would
be great if, and so, and finishthe sentence.
And so everyone then knows whatthe meeting's about, what the
meeting's for, blah, blah, blah.
And it helps you make adecision about whether you go or
(44:27):
not.
So the so I'm in a state is forsomething as simple as
meetings, A, do that for all theones you're sending out.
But every meeting request youget, ask people to finish that
sentence for you so that youknow whether you need to show up
or not.
Because I reckon, I reckonthere's 40% of your meetings
right now you could probably getrid of.
So start with something small,like questioning your meetings
(44:49):
or how you're spending yourtime.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I love that because there are, I know for me, the
two that really, the two bricksthat really stood out was the
complexity brick and theovercommitment brick.
So they're the two that I butI'll pick one.
Damn it, how do you pick one?
Um, you know, but this is it,we've got to be really, we have
to actually learn to be moredecisive as well about what we
choose to focus on.
Speaker (45:11):
Um I'd even say decisive and discerning.
Right.
And so um I'm fairlydisciplined, so I can, I'm, I'm
fairly good at saying I'm justnot gonna do that anymore, and I
just don't do it.
Um, but I'm very discerningabout where I spend my time and
energy and effort because I knowI don't get to lie in a hammock
(45:32):
for half an hour every day.
Not that you do, but you getthe idea.
Um, I do really am veryconscious of where I'm spending
this incredible resource andsomewhat limited resource that I
have.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
It's so true.
I mean, even if we think aboutthe Oliver Berkman quote, you
know, we have 8,000 weeks onthis earth, how are we gonna
live them best?
Uh, you know, and managingenergy is so important around
this as well.
And, you know, a lot of theconversation I have is around
action with purpose and returnon effort and managing your
energy in between.
So this is such a beautiful wayto really bring that to life.
(46:07):
And I know that it's gonna havea huge impact on so many
people, individuals, teams,businesses.
You know, again, this is gonnahelp you be a healthier, happier
human and to get some reallykick-ass, awesome rocking
business results.
So, are there any finalthoughts, if there was one
message that you wanted to leavewith um the business owners,
the leaders that are listening,anybody that has tuned in for
(46:30):
this episode, what would thatbe?
Speaker (46:33):
Every time you remove a red brick, you're doing
something that your future selfwill thank you for.
And so if you're thinking, whatcould it be?
Maybe, I mean, I think if we'vetalked a bit about meetings, so
a recurring meeting, is there arecurring meeting you could
remove right now?
Because not only does today getthe benefit of that, but future
self gets the benefit of that.
(46:53):
And so I I'd love people to bethinking about what are some
things they could be doing orstopping doing that their future
self is gonna go, that'sglorious.
And it can be anything from, asI said, meetings to you know
what, I'm gonna red brick sugarfrom my diet because I know my
future self will thank me forthat.
So think of something, and andI I always think about this.
(47:15):
What could I do this afternoonthat my tomorrow self will be
really thrilled that I didbecause it just made tomorrow
morning so much better.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
I absolutely love that.
And I think the mantra isabsolutely let's red brick it.
What can we red brick?
I'm definitely gonna go.
Actually, I'm for sure.
My first action is tidying upmy desk and saying to Jules,
what can we red brick?
Uh so also share with us, reachout to us and let us know what
you have decided to red brick toremove to create those
(47:46):
efficiencies, space, and evenjust sometimes that feeling of
peace and lying in a hammock.
Donna, where can people followyou?
I'm gonna put all the links inthe show notes, but uh, you
know, any other um obviouslyyou're gonna Google Red Brick
Thinking and or I'll put thelink in the show notes.
Where else can people find youand all the messages?
Speaker (48:02):
I'm a shameless self-promoter.
You really can't miss me,frankly, on all the major
platforms.
I'm mostly on LinkedIn and alittle bit on Insta.
You'll get me atDonnaMcGeorge.com.
My books are for sale at allthe retailers online and uh, you
know, bricks and mortar.
Um, so watch out for it.
You can pre-order it now.
Uh the day of recording this,the pre-order is still on for
(48:24):
about another 10 days or so uhbefore it will then uh be being
sent out.
So yeah, little luck.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
You'll be able to get a copy of it.
And um also I did mention yourChat GPT revolution book in the
previous episode.
So there you go.
Just come to Donna and Nikkifor all of your business,
business and life needs.
Or maybe not all need, not allyour life needs, actually.
But have an amazing day,everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningus, and I look forward to seeing
you next week.
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