November 25, 2025 • 32 mins
Patriarchal expectations of men remain strongly embedded in our society and culture, but it’s time to break the guy code.
Men are stuck in a bubble internally; they are supposed to be stoic, strong and masculine, and uphold rigid norms placed on them from the past several generations, reports Dr. Christopher Wilson, a certified sex therapist who works with cishet and non-cishet men who are struggling with the patriarchal negative and want to break free of it.
Women have been hurt disproportionately through the years by the patriarchal model – voting rights, wage discrepancies, financial freedom – but this is changing. Unfortunately, the traditional model for men is not. They feel an internal battle; they don’t want to give up their position, but at the same time, they feel trapped in a small rigid box of social expectations that they cannot step out of or there will be repercussions, they feel.
Men want emotional expression, but in many cases, their female partners shut them down because they, too, are not prepared for this patriarchal change and don’t know how to handle it.
In this Smart Sex, Smart Love podcast, Dr. Wilson will talk about why men struggle with emotional recognition, the four domains where men can get hurt, and how men can break the guy code in a healthy way and be free to be who they are, which ultimately will lead to a better society for everyone.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
JOE KORT (00:00):
Chris, hello, everyone. Welcome to
(00:05):
Smart sex, smart love, wheretalking about sex goes beyond
the taboo and talking about lovegoes beyond the honeymoon. My
guest today is Dr ChristopherWilson, a certified sex
therapist supervisor, acertified sex therapist and an
AAMFT approved supervisor. He'sbeen working in social services
and mental health for more than20 years. He specializes in
(00:26):
helping men, CIS het and non CIShet to process concerns
regarding sexual functioning,gender and sexual orientation,
exploration and kink, sexualfetish interest or questioning.
He also often serves members ofthe LGBT community who are
struggling with sex, intimacy,gender and orientation concerns
(00:47):
to better understand themselvesand social inequalities that
they face. Doctor Wilson foundedthe Center for healthier
relationships, individuals andsexualities in 2017
with a focus on helping membersof the LGBT community struggling
with mental health and sexualityconcerns. He is licensed to
(01:07):
practice in Pennsylvania,Delaware, New York, New Jersey
and Connecticut. Today, he willbe talking how the patriarchy
negatively impacts men too.
Welcome, Chris, thanks forhaving me. Yes, I'm so glad
you're here. And it's really aninteresting topic for us,
because we often talk aboutpatriarchy hurting women, but it
also hurts men too.
DR. CHRIS WILSON (01:30):
Yeah, and it's important to recognize before we
have this conversation that likewomen are disproportionately
hurt by the patriarchy, and wethat are very visceral. We all
see it. We see it in wage gap.
We see it in ability to vote upuntil 1920 in this country, we
see it in ability to havefinancial freedom and not having
access to their own money untilthe 70s and 80s, depending on
(01:51):
which laws we're looking at. Soit's important to recognize
that, but we also oftentimes donot talk about how it impacts
men, particularly when we'rethinking about men. In this
context, we're thinking mostlyCIS heterosexual men, but also
could be applied to non cis menor even queer men in other
contexts. Well,
JOE KORT (02:13):
yes, I agree, totally.
What are patriarchalexpectations of men, in your
opinion?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (02:18):
So I see a lot of times in my clinical work,
men who feel like they can'ttalk about their feelings, they
feel like they are stuck in thislittle bubble internally to
themselves and no one else canunderstand or even accept it.
There's this idea that we haveto be stoic and strong and we
have to have like body ideals ofmasculinity and making sure that
(02:40):
we look a certain way, that isan ideal physique. These are all
pressures that men feel. One ofthe other pressures is around
sexuality, idea of like we mustalways be ready for sex. And
that's not always the case for alot of men, and so they feel
this strong sense of pressure toit hold these very specific,
rigid sexual scripts, or rigidmasculine archetypes and norms,
(03:02):
which a lot of men don't feelparticularly I would argue
younger men, at this point, Iwould say men, probably under
the age of 40 or maybe evenunder the age of 30, really have
moved away from some of thesescripts, but they're still
holding on to a lot of the oldvestiges as well from their
grandparent generation or theirparents generation. And for that
(03:23):
reason, they're still kind ofstruggling internally with them,
like, oh, I still have to liveup to the standard, even if
modern society think, okay,maybe I can move away from that
a little bit.
JOE KORT (03:32):
You know, the first time I have you ever thought
about what you're saying is fromTerrence reels work. I don't
want to talk about it. You knowthat book.
DR. CHRIS WILSON (03:39):
I don't know the book, but I know a little
bit of his work,
JOE KORT (03:42):
yeah, I really wish that he had continued on with
that. He didn't. I mean, he dida little bit, but he moved
toward relationship, but it wassuch an important book, and he
talked about how patriarchy onlyfavors certain men, not all men.
And that's kind of what you'resaying, isn't it?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (03:57):
Most certainly, I would argue that
patriarchy, for the most partbenefits white, cisgendered
heterosexual men. Yes, we canstill argue that men of color
are going to have some benefit.
We can argue that queer men aregoing to have some benefit,
whether we are cisgendered ornon cisgender. There are
benefits that come for trans menonce they have transitioned and
are read as masculine, they getthese benefits that other men
(04:20):
have gotten throughout time, butarguably, speaking, the highest
degree of power comes in men whoare cisgendered, straight and
white, even just if we'relooking at our country and and
specifically, like all of ourpresidents, have been men first
and foremost, and everyone,except for one, have been white,
(04:40):
and they've all been as far aspublicly known, they've all been
heterosexual, though there issome debate on whether a few of
them may have not been entirelyheterosexual.
JOE KORT (04:53):
What do you make of them online? How vicious people
are to straight white men andthat they're just. Open targets.
Now, nowadays, what do you say?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (05:02):
I think a lot of that comes from pushing back,
which makes sense. I mean, wehave an entire community that's
had to push back, strong, reallywomen who have had to push hard
to get their rights to beacknowledged. And I think we're
now seeing women feel empoweredenough to fight and challenge
men very publicly.
Unfortunately, I think one ofthe things that kind of misses
(05:22):
the mark in doing that is we'renot actually appealing to the
men. We're actually putting themon the defensive. So instead of
actually being brought to thetable, they're doubling down. I
would argue that it's one of thereasons that we're seeing such a
strong conservative base or sucha strong we must return back to
the old 1950 value ideology.
(05:45):
It's because men are feelinglike they've lost power, which
in some sense they have, whichis actually not necessarily a
bad thing. We want other peopleto have power. But
unfortunately, when someonefeels like they're looting
power, they're going to pushback hard against that. And of
course, the people who aretrying to gain the power are
going to push even harder to gettheir power that they deserve.
JOE KORT (06:04):
I love what you're saying, especially about what's
happening in the administrationright now and in the world, this
push back toward thisconservative. Men are men, women
are women, and it really doesfeel like it's going backwards,
but it makes sense from whatyou're saying that it would come
from this.
DR. CHRIS WILSON (06:21):
I can't say that there's an easy solution to
it, but the reality is like weneed to get men on board with
some of these positive socialchanges. In this context, I'm
thinking straight white men inparticular, but all men who you
know, arguably are notcisgendered, or is that wrong?
Arguably, that are all that arecisgendered, need to be, you
know, on board. And that's ahard sell in some respects,
because it's hard to say, Oh,well, I'm going to give up some
(06:41):
of my power and privilege sothat you can also have a seat at
the table. And conversely, weneed to somehow bring the same
men to the table ofconversations around that, which
is also a challenge.
JOE KORT (06:52):
Who do you think the patriarchy typically hurts?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (06:56):
I mean, when we think about it, typically,
we're thinking of it asKitchener women, predominantly.
But we can also argue that itimpacts trans women extremely
disproportionately. It's one ofthe reasons I would argue that
trans women are targeted forviolence, often murdered at
horrific rates, and it alsohurts people of color,
regardless of gender. So if evenmen of color and women of color
(07:20):
are disproportionately hurtbecause we see the systemic
power that gets put upon them bystraight, cis, white men in
particular. But the people thatwe don't always acknowledge are
those just white, straight menthat are also feeling pinched by
the same system that they'vecreated.
JOE KORT (07:38):
Okay, that's helpful to hear. What would you say? How
does it hurt those benefits?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (07:44):
So arguably, speaking, it keeps men in these
small, little boxes that theyhave to kind of adhere to, which
is that if you step outside ofthe lines of any kind of social
sphere, that's theacceptability, then it actually
is going to be repercussions.
And we, I've seen this sometimesin the couple they work with,
where they're men and womencouples, and the men are
actually asking for emotionalexpression to be heard, and
(08:06):
their female partner shut themdown immediately. And part of it
for oftentimes, the femalepartner is learning like, Oh,
he's allowed to have his ownemotions. They don't have to
mirror mine, and that's okay,but that's also a hard work for
her to do as well, like, oh, Ihave to be emotional vulnerable,
and I have to be willing to belistening. That's a hard
challenge for everybody,regardless of your gender. And
(08:26):
so a lot of men don't feel likethey can talk about their
emotions, because they feel likethey're going to get shut down
immediately. I would argue thatthere's four domains in which
men typically get hurt by thepatriarchy, and that's emotional
expression, which we've kind ofcovered. But gender expression,
the ability to actually playaround with gender presentation,
it's such a huge thing. And ofcourse, this changes through
(08:49):
decades, right? You know, therewere the time when the macarons
were a huge success, you know,culturally and they were wearing
wigs and rocking white makeup,you know. But in general, our
current societies that when menstep out of like a rigid box of
clothing, expression, forinstance, they get blasted. One
of the best examples I can thinkof recently, in recent years, at
least, was when Harry Stylesrocked a dress on the cover of a
(09:12):
magazine. Here is a straight,cis white man, as far as I know,
who is idolized by girls andwomen around the world, and yet
he got crucified in the mediafor wearing a dress, something
that is literally an article ofclothing that, up and through
the 1930s and 40s, young boyswould have worn because it was
(09:33):
just part of what children wore.
But we have this kind of rigididea that men are supposed to
wear, you know, only wear polos,or only wear, you know, button
up shirts, you know, T shirtslike that. That's the look that
you get. And then even likecolor, right like color or
(09:53):
design, like I'm wearing a shirtright now that has quite a bit
of color in it, but this is aextreme color for me to be
wearing. And and for a lot ofmen, they wouldn't want to wear
something of this color, or theywouldn't feel comfortable, I
should say, wearing this kind ofcolor because it's vibrant and
bright. You know, I can thinkback to a conversation I had
with one of my friends who is agay black man who happens to
(10:15):
wear more colorful clothing, andadmittedly, he rocks it with
extreme confidence. Love him forthat, and I personally, despite
the fact the work I do, I wouldnot feel nearly as comfortable
as he does wearing the samecolor. Now, part of that also
has to do with it. I'm a whitewhite person, those colors just
aren't going to look cute on me.
The reality is that, like he hegoes about the world wearing
(10:36):
things that are a little bitmore feminine and look. And he
has so much pride in doing it,and that is awesome. And we need
to see more men do that,regardless of sexual orientation
or regardless of race. Thatallows us to have more freedom
in who we are, whether that isthe clothing we wear or being
more emotionally expressive orusing hand gestures more often,
(10:57):
I tend to talk a lot with myhands, and that tends to be
considered a feminine trait. Andso it's breaking a little bit of
the social conventions aroundgender expression. And the other
two areas are around sexuality,and within that, to some extent,
body image, I see a lot of menwho struggle with this idea that
they have to always be confidentand know how to have sex as if,
(11:17):
like, they're somehow like, oh,we all got a manual when we came
out of the womb that you knowhow to have sex. No, you're
learning about sex just asanyone else. And it just happens
to be that you were born with apenis. And the reality is that I
also see in other contexts withsexuality, such as not being
able to explore around sexualorientation. A lot of men get
(11:39):
crucified if they've decided toexplore with other men, even if
they discern that they are trulystraight, 100% straight, they
get crucified or they'redoubted. Oh, well, you did one
time, so therefore you must begay. Nope, one time, it makes
the experiment. And I've alsoseen this in abuse. What I've
seen in that context is when menhave experienced early child
(12:03):
sexual abuse, oftentimes theydon't see it as sexual abuse.
They see it as an experiencethey were supposed to have, or
that young boys are supposed tobe given the opportunity for
sex. And so they were given theopportunity for sex, therefore
they must have enjoyed it,whether they actually or not,
whether they were emotionallyready for it or not. And so
these young boys grow up to beyoung men that I oftentimes work
(12:24):
with, and they're having a lotof shame and guilt around these
early sexual experiences, andthey have a hard time wrapping
their head around the fact thatit was abusive. And I think back
to a dated reference at thispoint, but there was an episode
of Glee that happened somewherein 2010 and it was one of the
teen characters comes out ashaving had been abused by an
(12:46):
older female when he was ayounger kid. And all the boys
go, Oh, you were so lucky. Andhe's like, okay, yeah, yeah,
you're right, I was lucky. Andin all reality, you can see the
pain in the character, and he'sfeeling so troubled. And Mr.
Shoes tries to step in, but hedoesn't even really know how to
challenge it, because he's likethe dominant narrative. Of
course, he should be like, evenif he can logically, the teacher
(13:07):
know that that wasn'tappropriate. And I think the
final area, and this kind ofreally touched on some of the
work you do. You know, we havethe term died, which you coined.
And I would say that there's alot of men that feel like they
have to have, you know, analintercourse, or, you know,
vaginal intercourse, and I'veworked with men that just don't
care for it, or, you know, maybethey care for it, but it's like,
(13:30):
not even on what I like to callthe top 10 menu items for them,
like they don't like they'll doit. It's okay. It's somewhat
enjoyable, but not going to be ahighlight. I was even talking to
a gentleman earlier this week,and he was just talking about
the fact that, like, yeah, he'sheterosexual, cisgendered, and
he enjoys it to an extent, butit's not going to be the thing
(13:53):
that he's actually going to bedriving over to a partner or to
have a hookup. It's not going tothing that he's going to ask his
significant other to engage inunless she really wants it.
JOE KORT (14:06):
I love these four areas, and i What do you think
about this? I don't know where Ilearned this, but we stopped
touching little boys by the ageof eight. We and I think I
learned this from Terrence realthat we teach them to turn their
backs on vulnerability andemotionality, and then they grew
up to be these men that don'tknow how to be vulnerable, can't
be emotional. Touch is notanything more than allowing
(14:28):
themselves to be sexualized orthrough a sexual and then
there's four ways they emote.
They emote through sex, work,sports and violence. Have you
ever heard this?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (14:38):
Oh, dumb.
Heard this, and I've seen it inthe work I've done, I would
actually argue it starts evenearlier than that. I would say
that somewhere between like,five and 10, we start changing
the narrative around young boys,instead of, you know, the boy
who scrapes his knee and thegirl who scrapes his knee, the
girl's gonna get coddling andcomfort, the boy's gonna be told
(14:58):
to get be tough and be strong.
That's probably gonna shift alittle bit between, like. Five
and 10, you know, and by thetime kids get into elementary
into middle school, they'redefinitely starting to feel
those messages. I oftentimes canthink back to like, somewhere
between about age 10 and aboutage 12, somewhere where, when I
(15:21):
was graduating from from gradeschool and going into middle
school, there was a definiteshift in my understanding of
like, what I was supposed to doand not supposed to be able to
do as a male socialized person,and crying was not allowed going
by. Was feeling sad. I would cryprivately in a room and no one
else would know, and I was stilla little boy. That's not
(15:43):
something little boys shouldhave to feel. And unfortunately,
men oftentimes feel this aswell, and they hold on to this
well into adulthood. I wouldargue it's one of the reasons
that we see that men over theage of 50 have a much higher
rate of suicide, because theyare holding all these feelings
in for so long and feel likethey cannot speak up, even if
(16:05):
they don't feel the way thatsociety tells them they're
supposed to feel. So anothergreat example of this is that,
you know, Michael Kimmel calledit the guy code, which is the
idea of like, we actually aresilent, and we silence
ourselves, even if we thinksomething else is wrong that
other men are doing. And this isa, definitely a tenement of the
(16:26):
the patriarchy ultimately, like,Oh, can't upset the balance at
all. So we've got to go aheadand stay in the status quo. And
one of the most public things Ican think of, in reference to
this, there was a young girl whowas sexually assaulted by a
group of old like older males,and she was violated by these
young men. And there were acouple of young men who didn't
(16:49):
take part in it, but they didn'tactually tell anyone that it was
going to happen. They walkedaway, but they didn't actually
stop it. They didn't tell themen to stop they didn't go and
contact somebody else. Theystayed silent, because otherwise
they would be upsetting thebalance of that patriarchal
system in that moment and theyweren't willing or weren't
(17:11):
confident or enough to do that.
JOE KORT (17:13):
Wow. How do you think, or why do you think men struggle
with emotional recognition and processing?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (17:19):
I think it comes down to a mix of
socialization and biologicalmakeup. We know that from
studies that look at like transmales, experiences that after
they've transitioned and they'vebeen on testosterone over a
period of time, they have atendency to not be able to
connect to their emotions nearlyas well as they did prior to
(17:39):
transitioning. So that that doesspeak to a biological
difference, right? Somethingabout testosterone, and I'm not
an endocrinologist, butsomething about testosterone
holds us back from feeling ourfeeling. And I would argue for
that reason, we have a tendencyto feel anger as like the main
thing that we can grab onto,because it's something that
we're allowed socially to do.
We're socially allowed as males,to express anger. We're socially
(18:01):
allowed to express a desire fora goal. We're socially allowed
to express a desire for sex, andon rare instances, we might be
allowed to cry. And I always saythe rare instances are like,
you're getting married, you havea death in your family, your
favorite sport team loses theSuper Bowl like these instances.
Maybe you can cry, butotherwise, nope. Must hold in
(18:25):
those emotions. And though I dothink it's a mixture of bio,
biological and social messaging,you know, just thinking back to,
like, being a young kid and notbeing able to express my
emotions despite the fact that,like, I wasn't the most
masculine kid on the face of theearth, but I still clearly took
that message again from an earlyage of Nope. Stuck it up. Hold
(18:49):
that in.
JOE KORT (18:52):
It's me too, and I suck it up and hold in. How I
walked, how I talked. Joey waslike the sissy boy, and, you
know, be a man, and we're goingto show you how to be a man. And
it was awful,
DR. CHRIS WILSON (19:03):
yeah, and that goes back to the gender
expression piece right now. Italked about it in reference to
clothing, but gender expressionis also physical attribute and
the way we present ourselves.
And like I said earlier, I talkwith my hands a lot. Can't,
let's see, because the screenright now, when I, when I was
lecturing as a professor, Iwould actually talk a lot with
my hand, and that's considered,typically speaking, to be a bit
(19:25):
more of a feminine trait. It'sprobably one of my strongest
feminine traits. There'sactually a funny picture from
years ago, my husband and I werewitnessing one of his mentors do
this dance performance, andthere was a moment where I'm
like, rocking some sort of like,I can't even mimic it, like,
some sort of gesture like this.
And I'm like, I don't normallystand like that, but apparently
(19:47):
I do just a funny moment lookingback on it, but it certainly
kind of articulate the fact thateven in looking at that, I was
still uncomfortable. You know,I'm a therapist who works
through all this stuff regularlywith clients, but seeing myself
in a. Relatively Stark, feminineor queer stance. I was
uncomfortable with it, and stilleven looking at the picture, I
think the picture was taken like10 years ago. At this point,
(20:10):
looking at the picture even now,I'm like, oh, that's cringy, but
I can accept and embrace that,because I guess that's who I am,
JOE KORT (20:17):
right? Because you were talked out of being that
way. So it's foreign to you, butit's part of you, yeah, how
does, how can men helpthemselves?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (20:26):
I think part of it is breaking that Geico,
you know, talking when men areseeing things that are not okay.
I remember the story of a youngfootball player, I think
football, and there were someother players making jokes about
raping women, and he stepped upand was like, This is not okay.
You all need to stop saying thisright now, because he recognized
(20:47):
like it was not okay. And partof the reason he recognized it,
whether he was like, mysignificant other was sexually
assaulted, this is not okay,these are not okay jokes. The
more men can do that, and it'snot an easy thing to do. The
more men can do that, the morewe will all have a society that
accepts people as they are. Theywill accept variation and
(21:09):
differences. And ultimately, Ithink that's the reason this
conversation is so important,until we get men, particularly
cis, straight Hetman, to reallystart to see how this hurts them
and conversely, hurts the restof society. We're not going to
see a change. Yes, women havebeen carrying a hefty burden in
trying to make social change,probably something about time,
(21:32):
and we need to start carryingsome of that, whether we're
fifth and HET or not, if we're amale socialized person or a male
identified person, we need tostart taking on some of the
ownership of those changes, andthat means breaking the guy
code. That means being free tobe who you are, and that means
dressing in a way that might bemore feminine. It might mean
(21:54):
sharing with a partner thatyou're not feeling super
sexually confident that maybeyou are worried about your penis
size, or you're worried aboutyour body shape, or you're
worried about sexualperformance, these are all
things that like, the more mencan do these things, the better
they're going to feel, thebetter society is going to be,
(22:15):
and the happier relationshipsare going to have.
JOE KORT (22:18):
I have a question that I love to hear your answer to
this, because people don't talkenough about they talk a lot
about misogyny, but and peopledon't even know the word for the
hatred of men. I'm sure you knowit. Yeah, misandry, yep. Yeah,
misandry, right. So how much ofthis do you think is based on misandry?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (22:32):
I think that one, the complicated one. I
think missandre Ultimately, it'sactually impacted by the
patriarchy. I think there is acertain level to where women
internalize some of thosemessages that the patriarchy is
that about men, and they theylobby that back towards men. So
for example, the times when menwill start speaking up about
(22:55):
their feelings, women willoftentimes shut the men down,
and part of that is becausethey're not used to or
accustomed to listening to malestalk about their feelings. So
the same system that's tellingthem not to talk about their
feelings about teaching women tonot learn to hear males
feelings, women are often reallygreat at conversing with one
another and supporting oneanother and actively listening,
(23:18):
but in the work I've done, I'veoftentimes seen women really
struggle to hear their malepartners out. I also think this
comes from a place of, to someextent, self preservation for
women, in some respects, havingto fight for rights, it's got to
be a daunting process, and I'mgoing to acknowledge the fact
(23:40):
that I am not a female assignedperson, so I don't want to try
to speak for women in that way.
But from the client I've workedwith, the friends I have, the
family room, I have that I'veseen have to fight for every
step of the way to get thethings that they need, I think
that end up causing women tooftentimes attack men in ways
that are not healthy orconstructive. The term toxic
(24:03):
masculinity gets thrown outthere a lot, and oftentimes I
cringe when I hear that phrase,because you're basically telling
men masculinity is that what yourepresent, what you feel is a
bad thing. That's not theintention of the message, but it
(24:24):
what gets translated. It'ssimilar to when people were
using the phrase defund thepolice. Well, they're not
actually saying, let's defundthe police and take away all our
funding. What they're saying is,hey, let's look at other ways to
use funding to help otherchallenges that are happening,
and maybe that will actuallylighten the load for the police
(24:45):
officers. I would argue the samething can be said for dealing
with a system of patriarchy, ifwe can find ways for men to be
able to be more emotionallyexpressive and for women to
listen more in those emotionalspace. Of it's going to offload
the emotional burden that womenhave to keep take on, and
hopefully free men to feel moreopen and honest and be true to
(25:06):
what they're feeling in theirlife. And that might take some
of the burden off of thepatriarchal system as well.
JOE KORT (25:15):
How would you say that patriarchy, patriarchy shows up
in couples therapy,
DR. CHRIS WILSON (25:20):
shows up nobody way, probably more than I
can kind of capture in a fewminutes, but I would argue that
it shows up with men shuttingdown and feeling like they can't
voice their opinion. It shows upin female partners, oftentimes
eye rolling or ridiculing theirmale partners. It shows up with
particularly around sex therapywith men feeling like they are
(25:42):
supposed to know how to have sexand that their female partners
also think that the male partneris supposed to know how to have
sex. It shows up with the ideathat men are afraid to learn
what they need to know about sexfrom their female partners, or,
in case, male male partners,where men feel like they should
know, and it's like, Nope, youshouldn't. And what you you
(26:05):
know, what you experienced withthe previous female partner,
might not translate to yourcurrent female partner. And
that's really, really importantto recognize that. I think there
are all ways in which I thinkone of the other ways too is
body image. We didn't really getto touch on that one too much,
but I would say that men don'tfeel very confident sometimes in
their bodies, and it's reallyhard for them to sometimes
(26:27):
actually voice that in coupletherapy, because they're the
idea like, oh, well, men aren'tsupposed to care about their
bodies. Well, no, men havealways cared about their bodies,
and probably we are out in acurrent time that it's more than
ever a society that says Men aresupposed to look a very
particular way. And so theydefinitely struggle to voice
(26:47):
those opinions, and also theystruggle to have their female
partners hear that. One happen.
The other thing I would saythat, going back to the idea of
doicism, I've had a number offemale partners when their male
partners start to talk abouttheir feelings, they just can't
process it. Kind of going backto the idea of women needing to
learn how to actively listenwith male partners, and males
(27:09):
needing to voice their feelings,but they genuinely have
expressed struggles to me aboutlike, I don't know how to be the
supportive person right now forhim, because I'm used to him. If
one of my clients said I'm usedto him being my rock, like I
don't know how to be the rock inthis situation, because I'm used
to him being that person. Now, Idon't think this is true for
(27:31):
every couple, and I don't thinkit's true for often younger
couples nowadays, but I woulddefinitely say that couples who
are 40 plus, oftentimes, thegendered storm, gender norms,
and that is derived, arguably,from the patriarchy.
JOE KORT (27:50):
I love all this. This is such an important topic. What
is the one more message that youwould leave people that we
haven't talked about?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (27:58):
I would probably say, the more that we
can have a society where weallow men to have freedom in who
they are, and we stop trying toput men in these narrow, rigid
boxes, and we fight our owninternal inclination to be in
those narrow, rigid boxes, Ithink the happier society will
be, and that can be whether it'sa style of dress. It can be a
(28:20):
sense of confidence or nonconfidence in sex. It can be
just owning the fact that wehave body image concerns. All
these things can help us breakthat narrow, rigid box that
keeps men feeling trapped, andin many ways, keeps women
trapped, and it keeps transfolks trapped and people of
color are trapped. So yeah, themore we can let people be who
(28:42):
they are and whatever that mightbe. Yes, there are some men who
really do believe in themasculine archetype, and that is
true to who they are. It's not afront, it's not them just trying
to fit a mold. That's actuallyhow they feel. But there are a
lot of other men who are like, Iwant to rock fun painted nails,
(29:03):
and I want to wear a skirt and Iwant to have one hair. You and I
are both old enough to rememberthe 80s and the awesome hair
band of the day like that wasbreaking the standard norm at
the time. And you know, a lot ofmen would feel really
uncomfortable doing that rightnow. In fact, just a couple
years ago, the whole man buntrend with a craze for a while,
(29:26):
and there was a lot of backlash,even in that like a lot of women
talking about how they eitherfound it sexy or not sexy, a lot
of men how they felt likeconfident or not confident in
that style. And the more that wecan just accept people for who
they are, how they want topresent in the world, who they
want to love, the more we canbreak some of these rigid
(29:49):
boundaries that the patriarchystepped up, the better
everyone's world is going to be.
JOE KORT (29:55):
I agree with you. And then you bring up man bun. That
always makes me so mad. Man bun,it's a bun. It's not a man
crush, it's a crush. It's not abromance, it's a romance. We
have to be reminded that, yeah,I'm having these feelings or I'm
having this hairstyle, but I'mstill a man.
DR. CHRIS WILSON (30:08):
Yeah, and it's great that you're calling me out
on that. I use that word withouteven thinking twice. I didn't
mean, yeah, no, I love that youcall me out. Actually, I had a I
did a presentation on this topica few months ago, and one of my
colleagues called me out on thefact that I was making this
assertion that a lot of malespaces had eroded, which I don't
think they were arguing againstthat, but they were also like,
(30:30):
yeah, female spaces have erodedtoo. We don't have them as much
as you think we do. And I'mlike, You know what? That's
probably a good thing for me totake in, because I would have
made a presumption, based onwhat I see, that those spaces do
exist, but they probably existin a much more, smaller
microcosm than they once did,and where men probably started
(30:52):
seeing the eradication of a lotof male male spaces back in the
probably like back far backsince, like the 1960s and 70s,
women have probably experiencedthat more in the last few
decades, and so they're feelingthe same pinch of like there's
not a space for me to just bewith other women. And men really
use to have a space that justfor other men. I'm not saying
(31:13):
that we need to be that rigidwhere it's you know, we're
completely segregatingeverything by sex, because I
don't think that's healthyeither, but I think there is a
certain level of a balancebetween, yeah, we need to have
spaces that are all inclusivefor everybody, and there can be
value in spaces that are genderspecific.
JOE KORT (31:31):
Agreed, totally agree.
So where can people find you? Chris,
DR. CHRIS WILSON (31:35):
so they can find me at the Center for
healthier relationships.com,which is my practice's website.
They can find me on Instagram,Chris wolfsonphg.com, or on
Facebook, at their otherrelationships, individuals and sexualities.
JOE KORT (31:50):
And are you gonna write a book about any of this?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (31:52):
I do have some definite outline in place for a
book. I just haven't got thereyet. I'm actually in talks right
now to do a presentation,possibly with the cognitive
behavioral Institute inPittsburgh. So I have to give
that together, and when I getthat together, then I'll
probably have more resources toactually pull together to start
actually creating the chaptersof the book.
JOE KORT (32:14):
I hope you do, because it's a lot of wisdom in what you
said. So thank you so much.
Thank you for having me, yep, soyou can hear more of my podcasts
at Smart sex, smart love.com andyou can also follow me on
Twitter, on tick tock,Instagram, Facebook, they're all
at Dr Joe court, D, R G, J o, e,K O, R t, or you can just go to
my website, www dot Joecourt.com thanks for Listening
(32:36):
until next time. Stay safe andstay healthy. You.
Chris, hello, everyone. Welcome to
(00:05):
Smart sex, smart love, wheretalking about sex goes beyond
the taboo and talking about lovegoes beyond the honeymoon. My
guest today is Dr ChristopherWilson, a certified sex
therapist supervisor, acertified sex therapist and an
AAMFT approved supervisor. He'sbeen working in social services
and mental health for more than20 years. He specializes in
(00:26):
helping men, CIS het and non CIShet to process concerns
regarding sexual functioning,gender and sexual orientation,
exploration and kink, sexualfetish interest or questioning.
He also often serves members ofthe LGBT community who are
struggling with sex, intimacy,gender and orientation concerns
(00:47):
to better understand themselvesand social inequalities that
they face. Doctor Wilson foundedthe Center for healthier
relationships, individuals andsexualities in 2017
with a focus on helping membersof the LGBT community struggling
with mental health and sexualityconcerns. He is licensed to
(01:07):
practice in Pennsylvania,Delaware, New York, New Jersey
and Connecticut. Today, he willbe talking how the patriarchy
negatively impacts men too.
Welcome, Chris, thanks forhaving me. Yes, I'm so glad
you're here. And it's really aninteresting topic for us,
because we often talk aboutpatriarchy hurting women, but it
also hurts men too.
DR. CHRIS WILSON (01:30):
Yeah, and it's important to recognize before we
have this conversation that likewomen are disproportionately
hurt by the patriarchy, and wethat are very visceral. We all
see it. We see it in wage gap.
We see it in ability to vote upuntil 1920 in this country, we
see it in ability to havefinancial freedom and not having
access to their own money untilthe 70s and 80s, depending on
(01:51):
which laws we're looking at. Soit's important to recognize
that, but we also oftentimes donot talk about how it impacts
men, particularly when we'rethinking about men. In this
context, we're thinking mostlyCIS heterosexual men, but also
could be applied to non cis menor even queer men in other
contexts. Well,
JOE KORT (02:13):
yes, I agree, totally.
What are patriarchalexpectations of men, in your
opinion?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (02:18):
So I see a lot of times in my clinical work,
men who feel like they can'ttalk about their feelings, they
feel like they are stuck in thislittle bubble internally to
themselves and no one else canunderstand or even accept it.
There's this idea that we haveto be stoic and strong and we
have to have like body ideals ofmasculinity and making sure that
(02:40):
we look a certain way, that isan ideal physique. These are all
pressures that men feel. One ofthe other pressures is around
sexuality, idea of like we mustalways be ready for sex. And
that's not always the case for alot of men, and so they feel
this strong sense of pressure toit hold these very specific,
rigid sexual scripts, or rigidmasculine archetypes and norms,
(03:02):
which a lot of men don't feelparticularly I would argue
younger men, at this point, Iwould say men, probably under
the age of 40 or maybe evenunder the age of 30, really have
moved away from some of thesescripts, but they're still
holding on to a lot of the oldvestiges as well from their
grandparent generation or theirparents generation. And for that
(03:23):
reason, they're still kind ofstruggling internally with them,
like, oh, I still have to liveup to the standard, even if
modern society think, okay,maybe I can move away from that
a little bit.
JOE KORT (03:32):
You know, the first time I have you ever thought
about what you're saying is fromTerrence reels work. I don't
want to talk about it. You knowthat book.
DR. CHRIS WILSON (03:39):
I don't know the book, but I know a little
bit of his work,
JOE KORT (03:42):
yeah, I really wish that he had continued on with
that. He didn't. I mean, he dida little bit, but he moved
toward relationship, but it wassuch an important book, and he
talked about how patriarchy onlyfavors certain men, not all men.
And that's kind of what you'resaying, isn't it?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (03:57):
Most certainly, I would argue that
patriarchy, for the most partbenefits white, cisgendered
heterosexual men. Yes, we canstill argue that men of color
are going to have some benefit.
We can argue that queer men aregoing to have some benefit,
whether we are cisgendered ornon cisgender. There are
benefits that come for trans menonce they have transitioned and
are read as masculine, they getthese benefits that other men
(04:20):
have gotten throughout time, butarguably, speaking, the highest
degree of power comes in men whoare cisgendered, straight and
white, even just if we'relooking at our country and and
specifically, like all of ourpresidents, have been men first
and foremost, and everyone,except for one, have been white,
(04:40):
and they've all been as far aspublicly known, they've all been
heterosexual, though there issome debate on whether a few of
them may have not been entirelyheterosexual.
JOE KORT (04:53):
What do you make of them online? How vicious people
are to straight white men andthat they're just. Open targets.
Now, nowadays, what do you say?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (05:02):
I think a lot of that comes from pushing back,
which makes sense. I mean, wehave an entire community that's
had to push back, strong, reallywomen who have had to push hard
to get their rights to beacknowledged. And I think we're
now seeing women feel empoweredenough to fight and challenge
men very publicly.
Unfortunately, I think one ofthe things that kind of misses
(05:22):
the mark in doing that is we'renot actually appealing to the
men. We're actually putting themon the defensive. So instead of
actually being brought to thetable, they're doubling down. I
would argue that it's one of thereasons that we're seeing such a
strong conservative base or sucha strong we must return back to
the old 1950 value ideology.
(05:45):
It's because men are feelinglike they've lost power, which
in some sense they have, whichis actually not necessarily a
bad thing. We want other peopleto have power. But
unfortunately, when someonefeels like they're looting
power, they're going to pushback hard against that. And of
course, the people who aretrying to gain the power are
going to push even harder to gettheir power that they deserve.
JOE KORT (06:04):
I love what you're saying, especially about what's
happening in the administrationright now and in the world, this
push back toward thisconservative. Men are men, women
are women, and it really doesfeel like it's going backwards,
but it makes sense from whatyou're saying that it would come
from this.
DR. CHRIS WILSON (06:21):
I can't say that there's an easy solution to
it, but the reality is like weneed to get men on board with
some of these positive socialchanges. In this context, I'm
thinking straight white men inparticular, but all men who you
know, arguably are notcisgendered, or is that wrong?
Arguably, that are all that arecisgendered, need to be, you
know, on board. And that's ahard sell in some respects,
because it's hard to say, Oh,well, I'm going to give up some
(06:41):
of my power and privilege sothat you can also have a seat at
the table. And conversely, weneed to somehow bring the same
men to the table ofconversations around that, which
is also a challenge.
JOE KORT (06:52):
Who do you think the patriarchy typically hurts?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (06:56):
I mean, when we think about it, typically,
we're thinking of it asKitchener women, predominantly.
But we can also argue that itimpacts trans women extremely
disproportionately. It's one ofthe reasons I would argue that
trans women are targeted forviolence, often murdered at
horrific rates, and it alsohurts people of color,
regardless of gender. So if evenmen of color and women of color
(07:20):
are disproportionately hurtbecause we see the systemic
power that gets put upon them bystraight, cis, white men in
particular. But the people thatwe don't always acknowledge are
those just white, straight menthat are also feeling pinched by
the same system that they'vecreated.
JOE KORT (07:38):
Okay, that's helpful to hear. What would you say? How
does it hurt those benefits?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (07:44):
So arguably, speaking, it keeps men in these
small, little boxes that theyhave to kind of adhere to, which
is that if you step outside ofthe lines of any kind of social
sphere, that's theacceptability, then it actually
is going to be repercussions.
And we, I've seen this sometimesin the couple they work with,
where they're men and womencouples, and the men are
actually asking for emotionalexpression to be heard, and
(08:06):
their female partner shut themdown immediately. And part of it
for oftentimes, the femalepartner is learning like, Oh,
he's allowed to have his ownemotions. They don't have to
mirror mine, and that's okay,but that's also a hard work for
her to do as well, like, oh, Ihave to be emotional vulnerable,
and I have to be willing to belistening. That's a hard
challenge for everybody,regardless of your gender. And
(08:26):
so a lot of men don't feel likethey can talk about their
emotions, because they feel likethey're going to get shut down
immediately. I would argue thatthere's four domains in which
men typically get hurt by thepatriarchy, and that's emotional
expression, which we've kind ofcovered. But gender expression,
the ability to actually playaround with gender presentation,
it's such a huge thing. And ofcourse, this changes through
(08:49):
decades, right? You know, therewere the time when the macarons
were a huge success, you know,culturally and they were wearing
wigs and rocking white makeup,you know. But in general, our
current societies that when menstep out of like a rigid box of
clothing, expression, forinstance, they get blasted. One
of the best examples I can thinkof recently, in recent years, at
least, was when Harry Stylesrocked a dress on the cover of a
(09:12):
magazine. Here is a straight,cis white man, as far as I know,
who is idolized by girls andwomen around the world, and yet
he got crucified in the mediafor wearing a dress, something
that is literally an article ofclothing that, up and through
the 1930s and 40s, young boyswould have worn because it was
(09:33):
just part of what children wore.
But we have this kind of rigididea that men are supposed to
wear, you know, only wear polos,or only wear, you know, button
up shirts, you know, T shirtslike that. That's the look that
you get. And then even likecolor, right like color or
(09:53):
design, like I'm wearing a shirtright now that has quite a bit
of color in it, but this is aextreme color for me to be
wearing. And and for a lot ofmen, they wouldn't want to wear
something of this color, or theywouldn't feel comfortable, I
should say, wearing this kind ofcolor because it's vibrant and
bright. You know, I can thinkback to a conversation I had
with one of my friends who is agay black man who happens to
(10:15):
wear more colorful clothing, andadmittedly, he rocks it with
extreme confidence. Love him forthat, and I personally, despite
the fact the work I do, I wouldnot feel nearly as comfortable
as he does wearing the samecolor. Now, part of that also
has to do with it. I'm a whitewhite person, those colors just
aren't going to look cute on me.
The reality is that, like he hegoes about the world wearing
(10:36):
things that are a little bitmore feminine and look. And he
has so much pride in doing it,and that is awesome. And we need
to see more men do that,regardless of sexual orientation
or regardless of race. Thatallows us to have more freedom
in who we are, whether that isthe clothing we wear or being
more emotionally expressive orusing hand gestures more often,
(10:57):
I tend to talk a lot with myhands, and that tends to be
considered a feminine trait. Andso it's breaking a little bit of
the social conventions aroundgender expression. And the other
two areas are around sexuality,and within that, to some extent,
body image, I see a lot of menwho struggle with this idea that
they have to always be confidentand know how to have sex as if,
(11:17):
like, they're somehow like, oh,we all got a manual when we came
out of the womb that you knowhow to have sex. No, you're
learning about sex just asanyone else. And it just happens
to be that you were born with apenis. And the reality is that I
also see in other contexts withsexuality, such as not being
able to explore around sexualorientation. A lot of men get
(11:39):
crucified if they've decided toexplore with other men, even if
they discern that they are trulystraight, 100% straight, they
get crucified or they'redoubted. Oh, well, you did one
time, so therefore you must begay. Nope, one time, it makes
the experiment. And I've alsoseen this in abuse. What I've
seen in that context is when menhave experienced early child
(12:03):
sexual abuse, oftentimes theydon't see it as sexual abuse.
They see it as an experiencethey were supposed to have, or
that young boys are supposed tobe given the opportunity for
sex. And so they were given theopportunity for sex, therefore
they must have enjoyed it,whether they actually or not,
whether they were emotionallyready for it or not. And so
these young boys grow up to beyoung men that I oftentimes work
(12:24):
with, and they're having a lotof shame and guilt around these
early sexual experiences, andthey have a hard time wrapping
their head around the fact thatit was abusive. And I think back
to a dated reference at thispoint, but there was an episode
of Glee that happened somewherein 2010 and it was one of the
teen characters comes out ashaving had been abused by an
(12:46):
older female when he was ayounger kid. And all the boys
go, Oh, you were so lucky. Andhe's like, okay, yeah, yeah,
you're right, I was lucky. Andin all reality, you can see the
pain in the character, and he'sfeeling so troubled. And Mr.
Shoes tries to step in, but hedoesn't even really know how to
challenge it, because he's likethe dominant narrative. Of
course, he should be like, evenif he can logically, the teacher
(13:07):
know that that wasn'tappropriate. And I think the
final area, and this kind ofreally touched on some of the
work you do. You know, we havethe term died, which you coined.
And I would say that there's alot of men that feel like they
have to have, you know, analintercourse, or, you know,
vaginal intercourse, and I'veworked with men that just don't
care for it, or, you know, maybethey care for it, but it's like,
(13:30):
not even on what I like to callthe top 10 menu items for them,
like they don't like they'll doit. It's okay. It's somewhat
enjoyable, but not going to be ahighlight. I was even talking to
a gentleman earlier this week,and he was just talking about
the fact that, like, yeah, he'sheterosexual, cisgendered, and
he enjoys it to an extent, butit's not going to be the thing
(13:53):
that he's actually going to bedriving over to a partner or to
have a hookup. It's not going tothing that he's going to ask his
significant other to engage inunless she really wants it.
JOE KORT (14:06):
I love these four areas, and i What do you think
about this? I don't know where Ilearned this, but we stopped
touching little boys by the ageof eight. We and I think I
learned this from Terrence realthat we teach them to turn their
backs on vulnerability andemotionality, and then they grew
up to be these men that don'tknow how to be vulnerable, can't
be emotional. Touch is notanything more than allowing
(14:28):
themselves to be sexualized orthrough a sexual and then
there's four ways they emote.
They emote through sex, work,sports and violence. Have you
ever heard this?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (14:38):
Oh, dumb.
Heard this, and I've seen it inthe work I've done, I would
actually argue it starts evenearlier than that. I would say
that somewhere between like,five and 10, we start changing
the narrative around young boys,instead of, you know, the boy
who scrapes his knee and thegirl who scrapes his knee, the
girl's gonna get coddling andcomfort, the boy's gonna be told
(14:58):
to get be tough and be strong.
That's probably gonna shift alittle bit between, like. Five
and 10, you know, and by thetime kids get into elementary
into middle school, they'redefinitely starting to feel
those messages. I oftentimes canthink back to like, somewhere
between about age 10 and aboutage 12, somewhere where, when I
(15:21):
was graduating from from gradeschool and going into middle
school, there was a definiteshift in my understanding of
like, what I was supposed to doand not supposed to be able to
do as a male socialized person,and crying was not allowed going
by. Was feeling sad. I would cryprivately in a room and no one
else would know, and I was stilla little boy. That's not
(15:43):
something little boys shouldhave to feel. And unfortunately,
men oftentimes feel this aswell, and they hold on to this
well into adulthood. I wouldargue it's one of the reasons
that we see that men over theage of 50 have a much higher
rate of suicide, because theyare holding all these feelings
in for so long and feel likethey cannot speak up, even if
(16:05):
they don't feel the way thatsociety tells them they're
supposed to feel. So anothergreat example of this is that,
you know, Michael Kimmel calledit the guy code, which is the
idea of like, we actually aresilent, and we silence
ourselves, even if we thinksomething else is wrong that
other men are doing. And this isa, definitely a tenement of the
(16:26):
the patriarchy ultimately, like,Oh, can't upset the balance at
all. So we've got to go aheadand stay in the status quo. And
one of the most public things Ican think of, in reference to
this, there was a young girl whowas sexually assaulted by a
group of old like older males,and she was violated by these
young men. And there were acouple of young men who didn't
(16:49):
take part in it, but they didn'tactually tell anyone that it was
going to happen. They walkedaway, but they didn't actually
stop it. They didn't tell themen to stop they didn't go and
contact somebody else. Theystayed silent, because otherwise
they would be upsetting thebalance of that patriarchal
system in that moment and theyweren't willing or weren't
(17:11):
confident or enough to do that.
JOE KORT (17:13):
Wow. How do you think, or why do you think men struggle
with emotional recognition and processing?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (17:19):
I think it comes down to a mix of
socialization and biologicalmakeup. We know that from
studies that look at like transmales, experiences that after
they've transitioned and they'vebeen on testosterone over a
period of time, they have atendency to not be able to
connect to their emotions nearlyas well as they did prior to
(17:39):
transitioning. So that that doesspeak to a biological
difference, right? Somethingabout testosterone, and I'm not
an endocrinologist, butsomething about testosterone
holds us back from feeling ourfeeling. And I would argue for
that reason, we have a tendencyto feel anger as like the main
thing that we can grab onto,because it's something that
we're allowed socially to do.
We're socially allowed as males,to express anger. We're socially
(18:01):
allowed to express a desire fora goal. We're socially allowed
to express a desire for sex, andon rare instances, we might be
allowed to cry. And I always saythe rare instances are like,
you're getting married, you havea death in your family, your
favorite sport team loses theSuper Bowl like these instances.
Maybe you can cry, butotherwise, nope. Must hold in
(18:25):
those emotions. And though I dothink it's a mixture of bio,
biological and social messaging,you know, just thinking back to,
like, being a young kid and notbeing able to express my
emotions despite the fact that,like, I wasn't the most
masculine kid on the face of theearth, but I still clearly took
that message again from an earlyage of Nope. Stuck it up. Hold
(18:49):
that in.
JOE KORT (18:52):
It's me too, and I suck it up and hold in. How I
walked, how I talked. Joey waslike the sissy boy, and, you
know, be a man, and we're goingto show you how to be a man. And
it was awful,
DR. CHRIS WILSON (19:03):
yeah, and that goes back to the gender
expression piece right now. Italked about it in reference to
clothing, but gender expressionis also physical attribute and
the way we present ourselves.
And like I said earlier, I talkwith my hands a lot. Can't,
let's see, because the screenright now, when I, when I was
lecturing as a professor, Iwould actually talk a lot with
my hand, and that's considered,typically speaking, to be a bit
(19:25):
more of a feminine trait. It'sprobably one of my strongest
feminine traits. There'sactually a funny picture from
years ago, my husband and I werewitnessing one of his mentors do
this dance performance, andthere was a moment where I'm
like, rocking some sort of like,I can't even mimic it, like,
some sort of gesture like this.
And I'm like, I don't normallystand like that, but apparently
(19:47):
I do just a funny moment lookingback on it, but it certainly
kind of articulate the fact thateven in looking at that, I was
still uncomfortable. You know,I'm a therapist who works
through all this stuff regularlywith clients, but seeing myself
in a. Relatively Stark, feminineor queer stance. I was
uncomfortable with it, and stilleven looking at the picture, I
think the picture was taken like10 years ago. At this point,
(20:10):
looking at the picture even now,I'm like, oh, that's cringy, but
I can accept and embrace that,because I guess that's who I am,
JOE KORT (20:17):
right? Because you were talked out of being that
way. So it's foreign to you, butit's part of you, yeah, how
does, how can men helpthemselves?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (20:26):
I think part of it is breaking that Geico,
you know, talking when men areseeing things that are not okay.
I remember the story of a youngfootball player, I think
football, and there were someother players making jokes about
raping women, and he stepped upand was like, This is not okay.
You all need to stop saying thisright now, because he recognized
(20:47):
like it was not okay. And partof the reason he recognized it,
whether he was like, mysignificant other was sexually
assaulted, this is not okay,these are not okay jokes. The
more men can do that, and it'snot an easy thing to do. The
more men can do that, the morewe will all have a society that
accepts people as they are. Theywill accept variation and
(21:09):
differences. And ultimately, Ithink that's the reason this
conversation is so important,until we get men, particularly
cis, straight Hetman, to reallystart to see how this hurts them
and conversely, hurts the restof society. We're not going to
see a change. Yes, women havebeen carrying a hefty burden in
trying to make social change,probably something about time,
(21:32):
and we need to start carryingsome of that, whether we're
fifth and HET or not, if we're amale socialized person or a male
identified person, we need tostart taking on some of the
ownership of those changes, andthat means breaking the guy
code. That means being free tobe who you are, and that means
dressing in a way that might bemore feminine. It might mean
(21:54):
sharing with a partner thatyou're not feeling super
sexually confident that maybeyou are worried about your penis
size, or you're worried aboutyour body shape, or you're
worried about sexualperformance, these are all
things that like, the more mencan do these things, the better
they're going to feel, thebetter society is going to be,
(22:15):
and the happier relationshipsare going to have.
JOE KORT (22:18):
I have a question that I love to hear your answer to
this, because people don't talkenough about they talk a lot
about misogyny, but and peopledon't even know the word for the
hatred of men. I'm sure you knowit. Yeah, misandry, yep. Yeah,
misandry, right. So how much ofthis do you think is based on misandry?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (22:32):
I think that one, the complicated one. I
think missandre Ultimately, it'sactually impacted by the
patriarchy. I think there is acertain level to where women
internalize some of thosemessages that the patriarchy is
that about men, and they theylobby that back towards men. So
for example, the times when menwill start speaking up about
(22:55):
their feelings, women willoftentimes shut the men down,
and part of that is becausethey're not used to or
accustomed to listening to malestalk about their feelings. So
the same system that's tellingthem not to talk about their
feelings about teaching women tonot learn to hear males
feelings, women are often reallygreat at conversing with one
another and supporting oneanother and actively listening,
(23:18):
but in the work I've done, I'veoftentimes seen women really
struggle to hear their malepartners out. I also think this
comes from a place of, to someextent, self preservation for
women, in some respects, havingto fight for rights, it's got to
be a daunting process, and I'mgoing to acknowledge the fact
(23:40):
that I am not a female assignedperson, so I don't want to try
to speak for women in that way.
But from the client I've workedwith, the friends I have, the
family room, I have that I'veseen have to fight for every
step of the way to get thethings that they need, I think
that end up causing women tooftentimes attack men in ways
that are not healthy orconstructive. The term toxic
(24:03):
masculinity gets thrown outthere a lot, and oftentimes I
cringe when I hear that phrase,because you're basically telling
men masculinity is that what yourepresent, what you feel is a
bad thing. That's not theintention of the message, but it
(24:24):
what gets translated. It'ssimilar to when people were
using the phrase defund thepolice. Well, they're not
actually saying, let's defundthe police and take away all our
funding. What they're saying is,hey, let's look at other ways to
use funding to help otherchallenges that are happening,
and maybe that will actuallylighten the load for the police
(24:45):
officers. I would argue the samething can be said for dealing
with a system of patriarchy, ifwe can find ways for men to be
able to be more emotionallyexpressive and for women to
listen more in those emotionalspace. Of it's going to offload
the emotional burden that womenhave to keep take on, and
hopefully free men to feel moreopen and honest and be true to
(25:06):
what they're feeling in theirlife. And that might take some
of the burden off of thepatriarchal system as well.
JOE KORT (25:15):
How would you say that patriarchy, patriarchy shows up
in couples therapy,
DR. CHRIS WILSON (25:20):
shows up nobody way, probably more than I
can kind of capture in a fewminutes, but I would argue that
it shows up with men shuttingdown and feeling like they can't
voice their opinion. It shows upin female partners, oftentimes
eye rolling or ridiculing theirmale partners. It shows up with
particularly around sex therapywith men feeling like they are
(25:42):
supposed to know how to have sexand that their female partners
also think that the male partneris supposed to know how to have
sex. It shows up with the ideathat men are afraid to learn
what they need to know about sexfrom their female partners, or,
in case, male male partners,where men feel like they should
know, and it's like, Nope, youshouldn't. And what you you
(26:05):
know, what you experienced withthe previous female partner,
might not translate to yourcurrent female partner. And
that's really, really importantto recognize that. I think there
are all ways in which I thinkone of the other ways too is
body image. We didn't really getto touch on that one too much,
but I would say that men don'tfeel very confident sometimes in
their bodies, and it's reallyhard for them to sometimes
(26:27):
actually voice that in coupletherapy, because they're the
idea like, oh, well, men aren'tsupposed to care about their
bodies. Well, no, men havealways cared about their bodies,
and probably we are out in acurrent time that it's more than
ever a society that says Men aresupposed to look a very
particular way. And so theydefinitely struggle to voice
(26:47):
those opinions, and also theystruggle to have their female
partners hear that. One happen.
The other thing I would saythat, going back to the idea of
doicism, I've had a number offemale partners when their male
partners start to talk abouttheir feelings, they just can't
process it. Kind of going backto the idea of women needing to
learn how to actively listenwith male partners, and males
(27:09):
needing to voice their feelings,but they genuinely have
expressed struggles to me aboutlike, I don't know how to be the
supportive person right now forhim, because I'm used to him. If
one of my clients said I'm usedto him being my rock, like I
don't know how to be the rock inthis situation, because I'm used
to him being that person. Now, Idon't think this is true for
(27:31):
every couple, and I don't thinkit's true for often younger
couples nowadays, but I woulddefinitely say that couples who
are 40 plus, oftentimes, thegendered storm, gender norms,
and that is derived, arguably,from the patriarchy.
JOE KORT (27:50):
I love all this. This is such an important topic. What
is the one more message that youwould leave people that we
haven't talked about?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (27:58):
I would probably say, the more that we
can have a society where weallow men to have freedom in who
they are, and we stop trying toput men in these narrow, rigid
boxes, and we fight our owninternal inclination to be in
those narrow, rigid boxes, Ithink the happier society will
be, and that can be whether it'sa style of dress. It can be a
(28:20):
sense of confidence or nonconfidence in sex. It can be
just owning the fact that wehave body image concerns. All
these things can help us breakthat narrow, rigid box that
keeps men feeling trapped, andin many ways, keeps women
trapped, and it keeps transfolks trapped and people of
color are trapped. So yeah, themore we can let people be who
(28:42):
they are and whatever that mightbe. Yes, there are some men who
really do believe in themasculine archetype, and that is
true to who they are. It's not afront, it's not them just trying
to fit a mold. That's actuallyhow they feel. But there are a
lot of other men who are like, Iwant to rock fun painted nails,
(29:03):
and I want to wear a skirt and Iwant to have one hair. You and I
are both old enough to rememberthe 80s and the awesome hair
band of the day like that wasbreaking the standard norm at
the time. And you know, a lot ofmen would feel really
uncomfortable doing that rightnow. In fact, just a couple
years ago, the whole man buntrend with a craze for a while,
(29:26):
and there was a lot of backlash,even in that like a lot of women
talking about how they eitherfound it sexy or not sexy, a lot
of men how they felt likeconfident or not confident in
that style. And the more that wecan just accept people for who
they are, how they want topresent in the world, who they
want to love, the more we canbreak some of these rigid
(29:49):
boundaries that the patriarchystepped up, the better
everyone's world is going to be.
JOE KORT (29:55):
I agree with you. And then you bring up man bun. That
always makes me so mad. Man bun,it's a bun. It's not a man
crush, it's a crush. It's not abromance, it's a romance. We
have to be reminded that, yeah,I'm having these feelings or I'm
having this hairstyle, but I'mstill a man.
DR. CHRIS WILSON (30:08):
Yeah, and it's great that you're calling me out
on that. I use that word withouteven thinking twice. I didn't
mean, yeah, no, I love that youcall me out. Actually, I had a I
did a presentation on this topica few months ago, and one of my
colleagues called me out on thefact that I was making this
assertion that a lot of malespaces had eroded, which I don't
think they were arguing againstthat, but they were also like,
(30:30):
yeah, female spaces have erodedtoo. We don't have them as much
as you think we do. And I'mlike, You know what? That's
probably a good thing for me totake in, because I would have
made a presumption, based onwhat I see, that those spaces do
exist, but they probably existin a much more, smaller
microcosm than they once did,and where men probably started
(30:52):
seeing the eradication of a lotof male male spaces back in the
probably like back far backsince, like the 1960s and 70s,
women have probably experiencedthat more in the last few
decades, and so they're feelingthe same pinch of like there's
not a space for me to just bewith other women. And men really
use to have a space that justfor other men. I'm not saying
(31:13):
that we need to be that rigidwhere it's you know, we're
completely segregatingeverything by sex, because I
don't think that's healthyeither, but I think there is a
certain level of a balancebetween, yeah, we need to have
spaces that are all inclusivefor everybody, and there can be
value in spaces that are genderspecific.
JOE KORT (31:31):
Agreed, totally agree.
So where can people find you? Chris,
DR. CHRIS WILSON (31:35):
so they can find me at the Center for
healthier relationships.com,which is my practice's website.
They can find me on Instagram,Chris wolfsonphg.com, or on
Facebook, at their otherrelationships, individuals and sexualities.
JOE KORT (31:50):
And are you gonna write a book about any of this?
DR. CHRIS WILSON (31:52):
I do have some definite outline in place for a
book. I just haven't got thereyet. I'm actually in talks right
now to do a presentation,possibly with the cognitive
behavioral Institute inPittsburgh. So I have to give
that together, and when I getthat together, then I'll
probably have more resources toactually pull together to start
actually creating the chaptersof the book.
JOE KORT (32:14):
I hope you do, because it's a lot of wisdom in what you
said. So thank you so much.
Thank you for having me, yep, soyou can hear more of my podcasts
at Smart sex, smart love.com andyou can also follow me on
Twitter, on tick tock,Instagram, Facebook, they're all
at Dr Joe court, D, R G, J o, e,K O, R t, or you can just go to
my website, www dot Joecourt.com thanks for Listening
(32:36):
until next time. Stay safe andstay healthy. You.
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