August 7, 2025 • 29 mins
We can't simply squeeze ourselves into expected heteronormative structures and find happiness. It’s not going to happen! That’s why Tom Bruett, a therapist and founder of the Queer Relationship Institute, wrote the book, The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men: From Honeymoon to Lasting Commitment, a guide that provides the tools to build a rich, deep gay relationship. In any romantic relationship or friendship, there will be differences. This is how we learn about our partners and ourselves, and how we can grow in a relationship. If we do not go through the differentiation process, it creates angry fighting and static toxicity, Bruett finds. In this podcast, we talk about how to connect with your partner when you are not on the same page, and how to start the differentiation process and end with problem solving and a deep, sustaining and committed relationship. It will not happen if you are trying to create a carbon copy of a heterosexual relationship. It’s time to find queer joy, Bruett exclaims.
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Unknown (00:00):
Tom,
JOE KORT (00:05):
welcome everyone to smart sex, smart love. We're
talking about sex goes beyondthe taboo, and talking about
love goes beyond, beyond thehoneymoon. My guest today is Tom
brew it, a therapist, trainer,consultant and author who works
extensively with the queercommunity. He's the founder of
queer relationship Institute,which provide which provides
therapy for queer folks andtraining for therapists who work
(00:28):
with queer relationships. Hisbook, The go to relationship
guide for gay men, fromhoneymoon to lasting commitment,
provides the tools to build arich, deep gay relationship.
Today, Tom is going to talkabout his new book. Welcome Tom,
thanks, Joe. I'm so excited tobe here, and I'm excited to have
you here. I've been watching youon Tiktok and Instagram, and
watching your practice grow, andthen this book coming out, so
(00:50):
I'm so happy to talk to youabout it all.
TOM BRUETT (00:53):
I'm really excited to be here. All right. Well,
let's just get right into it.
Why did you write this book? Iwrote this book because I was
kind of tired of recommendingbooks to clients that were
incredibly heteronormative.
There's a lot of really greatbooks out there. I mean, you've
written a book on gayrelationships, but there's very
few actual books out there ongay relationships. And I think
(01:14):
we just get more out of aresource when it's written for
us. There's case examples thathave us, you know. And so I
really wanted to create aresource that people could look
at and work on to improve theirrelationship. That's great. And
Tom, can you tell us a littlebit about the book? It has a
developmental model built intoit. Is that? Right? Yeah. So the
developmental model, my mentors,doctors, Alan Bader and Peter
(01:34):
Pearson, they founded this modelof couples therapy that's
basically three pillars. Sothere's attachment science,
there's neurobiology, and thenthere's differentiation theory.
And so the differentiationtheory, I think, is what sets it
apart from a lot of differentmodels out there, because it's
really about, how can youconnect with your own wants,
feelings, wishes, desires, andthen tolerate the anxiety that
(01:54):
comes up in a relationship whenyour partner inevitably wants
something different, right?
Right? Right? And so, right, thewhole differentiation, did you
do? You know who David schnarchwas? So David schnarch was, you
know, the big He didn't createdifferentiation. I think he'd
see borrow from Bowen's work,didn't he? Yes,
JOE KORT (02:13):
yeah, but he would be like, God, love him. He's now
deceased, but he was probablyone of the most undifferentiated
humans you would ever meet, eventhough his work was all about
differentiation,that's great. I love
differentiation because it's allabout what makes you right
doesn't make me wrong, whatmakes you good doesn't make me
bad. Can you say more aboutthat? Yeah, I think, like, if we
and I think this concept, like,it's really important in
(02:35):
romantic relationships andfriendships and all that kind of
stuff. But I think even this, ifwe could bring this concept even
further out into the world andto community at large, like
there's going to be differences,and differences are okay.
Differences are how we learnabout ourselves and our partners
and our the people who areimportant in our lives. And so
often we, you know, we getlocked into this pattern of not
differentiating and not reallysharing what's important to us
(02:58):
in our romantic relationships,and it just creates, you know,
either a lot of stale toxicityor a lot of angry fighting.
And I love what you're saying,because it's pretty much most
relationships. But what makesthe book and your work different
with queer relationships aroundthose same issues?
TOM BRUETT (03:16):
So I talk a lot about the things that have
impacted us as queer men, gaymen in in our, you know, growing
up in development. So thedevelopmental differentiation
theory, that's a big componentof of this work. In this book,
really deals with some specificthings that we, we encounter as
gay men. And I've, I've come toa couple of your trainings, so I
know you speak a lot about this,and, you know, there's just,
(03:38):
there are differences to be tobeing queer. I mean, just from
the media representation to theinternalized homophobia to the
overt homophobia, let me thinkabout sex and how, you know,
just the experience of beingqueer really impacts how we show
up in our with our pleasure andour and our bodies and our sex,
JOE KORT (03:58):
right? It's the doubling of the genders, right?
So two women are going to showup very different than two men.
They're going to show up verydifferent from men and
TOM BRUETT (04:04):
women. Yes, yeah.
And I think the gay experiencesis different, you know, we're
not just trying to create carboncopies of heterosexual
relationships. You know, there'sdifferent, different structures,
different sex, sexualities atplay. There's different, you
know, family and communityaspects too.
JOE KORT (04:19):
I spent all of my early years, up until your age,
your your Is it okay if I sayyour age? Sure, okay, then
you're 40, right? In my 40s, Ihad built a heteronormative
relationship with my husband,and I realized, what the hell am
I doing? I'm gay. I don't haveto be heteronormative. I can do
this any way I want. Would youagree that gay and lesbian and
queer relationships have morefreedoms than straight couples.
TOM BRUETT (04:42):
Yeah, it's not all doom and gloom. I think, you
know, certainly I was in apretty, you know,
heteronormative typerelationship earlier on in my
life, and this, the relationshipthat I'm in now is is so much
better, because I could bedifferentiated, and we can, you
know, have differentrelationship structures and
different ways of really.
Communicating about our wantsand needs and desires, and it's
not you know you're when you'reraised just male in this in this
(05:04):
culture, it's very difficult toactually get in touch with all
that internal stuff and then toactually be vulnerable and take
a risk and share it withsomebody else. Can be really
scary.
JOE KORT (05:15):
Yes, especially when we took taking risks and being
vulnerable as LGBT people hasbeen mostly met with trauma,
abuse and rejection, and nowwe're being asked to do it
relationship, right? So that canbring that all up. Yeah, yeah, I
don't know, as your experience,do you work with lesbian couples
TOM BRUETT (05:32):
as well? I do work with a couple lesbian couples,
yep, because
JOE KORT (05:35):
I always find that I and I jokingly say this, but
it's kind of true that you needthe jaws of life to separate
them, because there's so muchoneness. Whereas with gay male
couples, my experience is I haveto feel like the woman in the
relationship, where women say,hey, come back to the
relationship. Come back into theDo you experience that? Or do
you have a different way thatyou see things?
TOM BRUETT (05:54):
Yeah, I think that that does speak to the
attachment piece. I mean, weknow a lot more gay men fall on
the avoidance side of things.
And so, you know, I think whenyou just separate the gender
piece out in attachment, it'slike, okay, if you have two
pretty avoidant people in arelationship, a lot of the work
is going to be, how do youactually take some steps towards
each other and and build somegroup projects, or do some
things together that feelconnecting and bonding, yes,
JOE KORT (06:17):
rather than competitive. And like you say,
avoidant, that's well said,Actually, talk about your seven
developmental stages in thebook. Or you say seven stages,
I'm calling developmental tellus what
TOM BRUETT (06:29):
they are. Yeah. So the seven stages, there's,
there's five that come fromEllen and Pete's original
theory, which are the honeymoonstage, the discovering
differences stage, theexploration stage, and then the
reconnection stage, and thenyou're working towards a goal of
mutual interdependence. I'veadded two additional stages
there. So the second queeradolescence, I think, is really
(06:50):
important. Really importantdevelopmental stage for a lot of
LGBT people, because, you know,our developmental experience is
different. We don't usually comethrough adolescence at the times
our bodies are kind of goingthrough physical adolescence,
and that really does shift theway you're kind of learning
about yourself and relationshipsand all that kind of stuff. And
(07:11):
then the other stage I added wasan agreement stage. I think this
is important for allrelationships, but especially if
you're differentiating andyou're going out and exploring
and trying different things,you've got to come back and
reestablish those agreements ina really clear
JOE KORT (07:24):
way. I like that. And how do you help the couples do
that? So
TOM BRUETT (07:28):
it's really through the process of learning to
differentiate. And I think ofit, I always tell them, it's
like a muscle. So we're going tobe working on building this
muscle of differentiation, andI'm going to be encouraging you
to first. The first step is selfdifferentiation, getting in
there and figuring out what isimportant to you, and then kind
of building up the skills totake those risks and share those
with your partner, and then totolerate that tension like it
(07:49):
can feel really tense if you'veavoided differentiating and
being yourself in a relationshiplike, kind of like you were
describing with your husband.
I'm sure it was a process rightto change those unspoken or
spoken agreements?
JOE KORT (08:01):
Yes, yep, even when I am the level you're using the
word agreement, I use them toowith couples, and I even ask if
somebody tells me they'remonogamous, I will ask them, I
have you negotiated yourmonogamy, because most people
don't understand that's anagreement too.
TOM BRUETT (08:16):
I have quoted you in the book. Yes, I'll look for
that. Thank you. You're welcome.
Thank you for all you've donefor our community. I
JOE KORT (08:26):
love I've loved doing all this, and I love watching
people come up behind me andlearning from them. And I love
that you're working with EllenBader, because she was always
like in the background of allthe theorists and other couples.
But I always loved her work. Iused to use her. She has this
couples contract. I don't know.
She still uses it. I borrowedit, and then she has this one
line that I love when you forbidyour partner you invite secrecy.
(08:46):
Yes, I love that.
TOM BRUETT (08:52):
Yeah, she's done. I mean, she does so much work with
betrayal and infidelity and allthat kind of stuff, which it
takes a lot of differentiationto work through those cases when
there's been a lot of betrayal,or, yeah, any kind of trust
eroding
JOE KORT (09:06):
totally. All right, so you talked about the gay
adolescents, second adolescence.
How does it impact relation?
Well, what is it? First of all,if you could be a little more
explaining, and then how does itimpact?
TOM BRUETT (09:15):
So the second queer adolescence, this is certainly
not a phrase I've coined. Imean, it's kind of around there,
out and about, but I think it'ssomething that we're finally
acknowledging as in the queercommunity, because so many of
us, I'll just speak for myexperience, you know, people, I
would say it's a lot differentfor people who are younger than
me, but I'm still getting 20year olds in my office who are
disowned and, you know, so it'slike the stuff is still there.
(09:36):
But if you're, if you're comingto know who you are, and you're
having to keep bits and piecesof that secret. And then you're,
you know, also trying to figureout how to be in relationship
with somebody else. It's almostimpossible, I think. And so, you
know, in typical adolescence,your brain is developing. You're
experimenting. You're trying allsorts of fun and interesting
things. So many times as queerpeople, we do this after we come
(09:57):
out, or, you know, if you comeout in your 20s, maybe you do
it. You. 20s. If you come outlater than that, maybe it
happens then. And I always say,like, these stages are fluid, so
just because you came through ita little bit doesn't mean you're
not going to go back to it attimes. But you know, people will
sometimes call it like your slutphase, or, you know, you're
having a lot of differentpartners, or you're, you know,
you're just trying andexperimenting, exploring and
(10:17):
figuring out who you are in
JOE KORT (10:19):
the sex addiction community. What I used to hate
when I was part of it is theywould call it sex addiction.
You're acting out in thathypersexual and I used to say,
what you're talking about, thisis delayed adolescence. You
don't understand. Have you everheard somebody calling it a sex
addiction?
TOM BRUETT (10:33):
Yeah, yeah. I mean the sex addiction, I think just
from the inception of that termhas been really dangerous for
the gay male community, but
JOE KORT (10:44):
terrible, right? And I always like to tell clients,
especially if they're 40s, 50s,60s, I've even sure you have two
in their 70s, when they're indelayed adolescence, at least
this time you have money and youdon't have acne, so you get to
enjoy it.
TOM BRUETT (10:58):
And I love that, because I think so often we have
to look for the joy, the queerjoy, the resilience. Because if
we only stay in the thechallenging parts, like it's,
it's, I don't think we're doinganyone a service. I
JOE KORT (11:09):
love that. What you just said, queer joy, wow. Do
you say that a lot?
TOM BRUETT (11:13):
I do, yeah, yeah.
JOE KORT (11:15):
Say more
TOM BRUETT (11:16):
about I just think it's something that so often.
You know, we can read like, ifyou're, if I'm giving a
presentation right on gay malethe gay male population, all of
the statistics are really, youknow, very difficult to absorb.
If we look at just the mentalhealth statistics, you know, the
substance use, all that kind ofstuff. But there's also so much
(11:36):
more about being a queer personthat is full of joy and
resilience. And, you know, Ithink Dan Savage has the quote
like we would during the heightof the AIDS epidemic, we would
bury our friends in the morning,and then we would go and party
at night as a form ofresistance. And I think we need
to, especially right now, like,stay attached to that,
JOE KORT (11:55):
especially right now, absolutely, you say in your
book, you talk aboutrelationship role models for gay
men? Will you share a fewthoughts on that?
TOM BRUETT (12:04):
Well, I think, I mean, I mentioned this a little
bit earlier, but I think you'rea role model, right? I mean, we
lost an entire generation of gaymen. I mean, not an entire
generation. There are people whohave survived, but it's very few
and far between, and so to losethat, you know that breadth of
of, like, our elders, I think itmakes it really challenging to
(12:24):
then look, you know, above usand into what are, what are
relationship structures andrelationships that work? And
there's very few examples, Ithink, out there, of, like,
especially gay men who are, youknow, living a life, who are
ahead of me in age and havefigured this out. And I mean,
you certainly are one of them.
You've been doing this for areally long time, and have
helped our community in a huge
JOE KORT (12:46):
way. Thank you. I've loved it, but I've had to have
my own right side, like BrianMcNaught. Do you know who that
is? Yep, he's been like myelder, right? And then we had,
when Mike and I first gottogether, we had a gay male
couple that were together longerthan us. Thank God, because they
normalize, like you talk aboutthat as well.
TOM BRUETT (13:03):
Oh yeah. I mean, especially, I think it's
shifting with with gay marriageand stuff. But, you know, there,
I think the statistics actuallyshow that LGBTQ couples that are
committed and, you know, staytogether longer than our
heterosexual counterparts. Butit's, I don't, I don't think we,
we can, we can't look into thefuture and say, like, Okay, this
is the kind of relationship Iwant for myself. I mean, there
was nothing on TV or media, andI know we shouldn't always look
(13:26):
to that those places forrelationship role models, but we
need it somewhere, right? If yougrow up in a straight household
and a straight community, andwhere are you getting the
inspiration for living a lifethat feels authentic to you,
JOE KORT (13:37):
right? My role model, or I guess my what I saw
normalized was making love. Doyou know that movie? Oh, it's
such a good movie. It didn't dowell at the box office. It
probably came out at a bad time.
It was like 1981 or something,and it was with Kay Jackson and
Michael onto Keene and HarryHamlin. There was about a gay
man in a marriage heterosexualand he comes out, and then he
has this adolescence and allthis stuff. It just was very
(14:01):
inspiring to think that I could,one was a doctor. One was, I
don't remember, but they have,like, really nice professional
jobs. And back then, you didn'tsee gay people with that, yeah.
I
TOM BRUETT (14:13):
mean, it certainly has shifted in a lot of ways.
But, you know, then there's somefrightening things happening in
the world today. So it's still,you know, we make a little bit
of progress, and then we go backa little bit
JOE KORT (14:23):
in Ellen's community.
Are you one of the is there alot of LGBT doing the work
you're doing? Are you one of thefew?
TOM BRUETT (14:30):
So, I mean, she's thankfully, I mean, she's been a
champion, kind of, since herfirst book in the late 80s. She
had a gay couple in one of herearly books, which, you know,
and she loves working with gayand lesbian and queer couples.
What she said is now thatthere's, as it's become more
accepting for therapists to beout, she's not getting as many
gay and queer referrals becausethey're going to therapists who
(14:53):
self identify as gay or queer.
And there's, I would say,there's a handful of people in
her community. And then that'swhy I really. Created this, this
other training program that'sall queer therapists, because I
wanted to, my early training wasat a place called queer life
space in the Castro in SanFrancisco. And it was, it was
amazing, because we were in acohort of queer, you know,
training therapists we wereworking with in queer community
(15:16):
mental health, and then everyweek we had trainers from around
the community come in and teachus. And there was something so
beautiful and safe aboutlearning in a space that, like,
you didn't have to defend partsof your identity. And, you know,
really, because I think it'shard to learn when that you're
having to have that shield up.
JOE KORT (15:35):
Yes, we'll talk about that training that I know you
offer these LGBT trainings forqueer therapists. Is that right?
TOM BRUETT (15:41):
Yeah. So I've taken, you know, a lot of the
principles from thedevelopmental model work pretty
well, just as they are with withqueer and gay relationships. But
I wanted to kind of create formsthat are all LGBTQ inclusive,
all of like, the role plays andthings you give your clients and
do all the code switching forpeople, so that they can just
learn the model, just likefigure it out. And it's been
really beautiful. I mean, thisyear we had, I had about 25
(16:04):
people from different parts ofthe world. We meet twice a
month, and it's just beenreally, really a beautiful
community.
JOE KORT (16:12):
I can't tell you how much I love this, because I have
a jaded perspective on how a lotof LGBT people feel like they're
the authority, and there isn't ashared authority. It's so
undifferentiated. How did youcreate a community that wants to
be together?
TOM BRUETT (16:27):
Well, I mean, something I say all the time is
like, the queer community is nota monolith. I can't possibly
speak for all of the queercommunity. I can't even speak
for like many of the gay men outthere, right? There's as many
queer and gay people as thereare queer and gay people out
there. Yeah. And so I justinvite other people to share
their you know, we're acommunity. A community means we
learn from each other, we growfrom each other. And, I mean,
there's some great therapists inthere who know a lot more about
(16:50):
neurodiversity than I do, or,you know, other topics. And
they'll, they'll share, they'llit's just a really nice, caring
place to be. I
JOE KORT (16:58):
know, I think it's great. I think you're it's, I
think I'm making this up becauseI don't know for sure, but it
feels rare. It doesn't feellike, if there is other ones,
it's got to be in pockets. Youdon't hear a lot about this
much. I my i feel like mystrength is teaching straight
people how to work with gaypeople. When I tried to bring
together our community like youdid, I'm not good at it, but you
are. It
TOM BRUETT (17:18):
just that's something I think that early
training at queer life spacereally just helped me figure out
how this could work. And, youknow, there's a lot of
differences in the queercommunity, and so we can't
pretend that those aren't goingto be there. But, you know, I
think just acknowledging them,differentiating, bringing it
into the space. And you know,there's no way that you can do
for me personally, like myjourney of every time I learn
(17:40):
something new in the therapeuticway, I grow exponentially as a
human, yeah? And so, you know,we're always evolving and
growing, and that's, I think,one of the beautiful things
about this
JOE KORT (17:48):
work, right? And then what you do is the same thing I
do. You teach it. You find a wayto make it a way to teach. I
love that about you,
TOM BRUETT (17:54):
yeah, yeah. It's really teaching is just, it
really is something that justlights me up. And I like working
with clients, but the teachinghas been really fun. Now.
JOE KORT (18:02):
What about singles?
People will watch us go, Oh,he's only going to be dealing
with relationships. What aboutme? What do you say to them?
TOM BRUETT (18:09):
Something I really, I really was writing this book,
thinking it would be for, youknow, gay couples who are
thinking about couples therapy.
Maybe they're having a littlebit of trouble, whatever. But
I've had a few people, a fewfriends and people in my
community who are single, whoare reading it, especially
younger gay men, and they'relike, Wow, I wish I had, you
know, there's no place to we canreally get these concepts. And
nobody's, nobody's teachingrelationship skills, I think,
(18:30):
just in general. And then youadd on being a gay man on top of
that. And you know, there's alot of people who are, are
feeling lost,
JOE KORT (18:40):
yes, and I always say, even just being men, right? Just
because people forget we're men,we were socialized as boys.
We're socialized as Terence realtalk. They've not turned our
backs on vulnerability. Not haverelational language. We don't
know how to we were taught torun from each other, not toward
each other. So then relationshipbecomes very hard. I'm sure you
see that.
TOM BRUETT (19:00):
Oh yeah, yeah. It's, it's, you know, just the
smallest little act ofvulnerability can feel like the
biggest risk in the world. Andthen you add on, like telling
your partner you want an openrelationship, or something
that's even, like, bigger thanthat, or I don't want kids, or
whatever it could be like that.
Those Those things can reallyupset the apple cart.
JOE KORT (19:17):
How do you deal with talking to couples about open
relationships? Do you just bringit up? Or how does it work? Do
TOM BRUETT (19:22):
work? I mean, I definitely follow where they
want to go, but I I myself, havebeen open relationship. I have
been since the beginning of thisrelationship, and I will
sometimes disclose that topeople, but there's usually, you
know, if they're coming tocouples therapy around it,
there's usually someone whowants it more and someone who
doesn't want it, right? And sogetting them to differentiate
and really get get clear on whatthey want about it, what they
(19:46):
don't want about it, what theirfears are. So, so often people
just want to go to problemsolving right away. And I mean,
that's how we're trained as men,especially like but if you don't
differentiate first and slowdown and really understand, then
you know you're solving thewrong problem. Many, many of the
times, yeah.
JOE KORT (20:00):
Yeah, right. And so many straight therapists, or
just therapists in general, feellike your model. If one wants
monogamy and one doesn't, or onewants something sexually and one
doesn't, then it means that youshouldn't do it because there's
somebody that doesn't. But Ilove what you're saying, and I
say the same thing.
Differentiation is anything onewants to move, one doesn't. One
wants more children or nochildren. One doesn't. It's
beyond just monogamy and sex.
(20:22):
Why do we only teachdifferentiation in everything
but monogamy and sex? And you'resaying, let's do it to
everything?
TOM BRUETT (20:28):
Yeah, I think it's, it is like, like, the hands
down, biggest skill I wish I hadlearned earlier in my life.
JOE KORT (20:35):
Why say more about that? It's, it's
TOM BRUETT (20:38):
something that for I'll just speak my experience
personally, like growing up as agay boy, a little gay boy who
was bullied extensively and allthis kind of stuff, I really
learned to hide and peopleplease. And so I could disappear
into relationships. I could makeother people feel really
comfortable, but I wasn't beingtrue and honest about what I
needed or wanted or desired. Andso taking those risks and like
(20:59):
and experimenting that way inrelationships. It's, it's like,
wow, I can actually, like, stayin connection with somebody and
also have some autonomy. Andit's just like a really
powerful, magical thing. Whatwould
JOE KORT (21:12):
you say to people that you kind of already answered it,
but I think it's good for us tobe direct about it. Who would
say, Well, why do Why wouldanybody need to go to a queer
therapist or queer trainer, likewe've we've made it right so
we're integrated. Why do we needto go back to being insulated?
What would you say?
TOM BRUETT (21:28):
Many of the reasons I hear and and like, like, a gay
couple will come in and they'llsay, oh, you know, we're having
sex issues. We just, we lovedour straight female therapist,
but we just didn't feelcomfortable talking about sex
with her, and there wassomething maybe she was doing,
or something from their pastthat, like, wasn't making that
possible. And so there just feellike there are some topics
where, you know, just becausewe're gay, does gay or queer, it
(21:50):
doesn't mean we understand everyaspect of the community, but
there's something about, like,just just opening the door, that
makes people feel, I think, alittle bit more understood, a
little bit safer. It's the samereason I'll really only go see a
gay doctor, because it's, youknow, I don't want to be not
that there's anything wrong withstraight doctors, and I'm sure I
could get the help and support Ineed, but I really want somebody
(22:11):
who understands and doesn'tpathologize or judge things
about being gay,
JOE KORT (22:16):
right? So that's just being gay friendly, but being
gay informed, yeah, right. Whatelse would you want people to
know about the work you're doingthat we haven't addressed so
far?
TOM BRUETT (22:27):
What else would I want people to know? I just I,
you know, I hope that peoplewill take a little bit of time
and read this book. And the goalhere is just to get people
talking about things. And so atthe end of each chapter in the
book, there's, there'squestions. So if you're reading
it with your partner, you can,you could journal the questions.
(22:47):
You can talk about them like thebook is structured as a way to
actually be a joint project witha partner, or if you're reading
it on your own, to kind ofjournal and get to know a little
bit more about yourself. And Ijust, I just, I really think
that strong relationships buildstrong communities. And I just
think our community, we just,we're like, we could just be so
much greater if we just dealtwith some of these issues that
(23:11):
so many of us have.
JOE KORT (23:13):
I totally agree. What about intergenerational
relationships? You know, I'venoticed in the last five years,
increase of negativity towardyou. Never used to be that way.
In my generation. It was, likejust known and understood, and
unlike in the straightcommunity, where there's always
judgment about older people withyounger people adults, where's
your stance on intergenerationalrelations?
TOM BRUETT (23:35):
I think whatever works for the person is what
works for the person. But youknow, it's so interesting,
because this topic does seem tobe a hot button topic like it. I
think I created a tick tock orsomething about age gap
relationships, and it's likeeverybody has comments on it.
People are this is a topic thatit seems like our community is
really, really invested in, forsome reason.
JOE KORT (23:55):
Well, I didn't understand it either. I did a
tick tock too, like two, threesummers ago, and I got
lambasted, like, just horrible,right? And I was like, What is
this? Is we? It was shocking.
And somebody put in thecomments, and then I got it,
this is, there's a whole body, ageneration, who grew up with
online, with Grindr, with, Idon't know, whatever the old
(24:16):
platform, right? I forget thenames now, but so, but they were
preyed upon by older men throughthese platforms. They never
dealt with it. They never gothelp for it. So they superimpose
that this is a power imbalance,and they they make it well, like
what happened to them is in thisrelationship, and that's not
(24:37):
what this is. Can you speak tothat a little bit? Well,
TOM BRUETT (24:42):
I think if we think about like, the topic of erotic
orientation, right? Some peopleare templates. People just are
attracted to what they'reattracted to. Some people are
attracted to younger guys. Somepeople are attracted to older
guys, different sizes, you know?
And that, I think, has to beokay. Some people are side. Some
people like to top. Some peoplereverse. Like these are just.
Just parts of what, what makesup your sexuality, and if we
(25:03):
could just stop pathologisingAll of it. I mean, as long as
you're not hurting anybody, aslong as it's consensual, you
know, it's legal, whatever thatmeans, you know, like, I think
we've got to just have a littlebit more space and graciousness
around, right?
JOE KORT (25:18):
I actually followed up to my video with this, and they
blasted me for this. But it'strue that when you have a
delayed adolescence, you mightbe in gay year, you might be
chronologically 50, but in gayyears, you're 25 and you meet a
25 year old, and you're in thesame place emotionally and
psychologically, right? So thatthat plays into
TOM BRUETT (25:38):
it, especially like, if we think about it's like a
really common therapist trope,right? Like, if you had a really
difficult traumatic experience,you stopped developing around
whatever age that was that youhad that traumatic experience.
So if your traumatic experiencewas something to do with your
sexual orientation or comingout, or whatever it was, it
makes sense that you would befrozen a little bit around
whatever was happening at thattime.
JOE KORT (25:59):
Yeah. How do you help somebody unfreeze around that
when they come in and they havethat delayed adolescence? What
do you do with
TOM BRUETT (26:06):
them? It takes so much trust. I mean, because
people come in, they trust us astherapists, but they would be
not wise to just automaticallytrust us, right? So it takes
time, and it takes they'reexperimenting with
differentiation with me. And Ithink one of the powers of for
thinking about individualtherapy is like, it gets to be a
(26:26):
reparative attachmentrelationship. And you know, when
we can have that experience witha therapist and connect and
like, actually heal through someof this stuff and go through the
process of differentiation andallow yourself to be fully seen
and taken in and cared for. Imean, personally, that was what
was the most healing about myown therapeutic journey. And
it's something that I thinkthat's part of what I think
(26:47):
change, how change happens intherapy.
JOE KORT (26:50):
I love that. That makes a lot of sense. Can you
tell people when your next roundof trainings are for LGBT
therapists?
TOM BRUETT (26:57):
Yeah. So the next one will start in September, and
it runs for nine months. I'mprobably going to open the I
keep it really small, so I don'tdo more than 30 people, and then
probably in the next like byJune 15, I should have it open
for people who want to sign
JOE KORT (27:12):
up. That's great. And where can they find you? They
can findme@queerrelationshipinstitute.com
TOM BRUETT (27:18):
and on there's the list of all the trainings, and
you can see the book and podcaststuff and everything.
JOE KORT (27:24):
Me, good, all right, good. And then you're on
YouTube, Tiktok, right?
Instagram,
TOM BRUETT (27:29):
yeah, not as prolific as you, but you know,
you have found a way to balanceit all to me, and it can be kind
of exhausting.
JOE KORT (27:35):
I know I don't, yeah, I have loved the marketing part
of this from the day I became atherapist. So I think that's
what it is. I'm a Marketingpassion, and I have a passion
for the work, but I know themarketing can be exhausting to
people, yeah,
TOM BRUETT (27:49):
but I love it, yeah.
And you're so good at I mean,you don't shy away from
controversial topics. You reallyput yourself out there. And I
mean that is practicingdifferentiation and being
vulnerable.
JOE KORT (27:59):
Thank you. I had a coach once say to me, you know,
you're controversial. I'm like,No, I'm not. She goes, Yes, you
are like, No, I'm not. Like, wehad a whole thing at the end. I
was like, Oh, I guess I am.
Thank you so much foracknowledging that before we
stop.
TOM BRUETT (28:15):
No, I'm just, I'm it's been great to talk with
you, and thanks for having meon.
JOE KORT (28:19):
Yeah, thank you so much Tom for coming on the show.
I'm looking forward to watchingmore of your work and your
videos and getting peoplereferred to your training. So
thank you. You can hear more ofmy podcasts on smart sex,
smartlove.com and you can alsofollow me on Twitter, Tiktok,
Instagram, Facebook, YouTube,and then if you want to go to my
(28:40):
website. It's Joe court, J, o,e, K O, R t.com, and all of my
handles everywhere is at Dr. Joecourt, thanks for listening, and
I'll see you next time you
Tom,
JOE KORT (00:05):
welcome everyone to smart sex, smart love. We're
talking about sex goes beyondthe taboo, and talking about
love goes beyond, beyond thehoneymoon. My guest today is Tom
brew it, a therapist, trainer,consultant and author who works
extensively with the queercommunity. He's the founder of
queer relationship Institute,which provide which provides
therapy for queer folks andtraining for therapists who work
(00:28):
with queer relationships. Hisbook, The go to relationship
guide for gay men, fromhoneymoon to lasting commitment,
provides the tools to build arich, deep gay relationship.
Today, Tom is going to talkabout his new book. Welcome Tom,
thanks, Joe. I'm so excited tobe here, and I'm excited to have
you here. I've been watching youon Tiktok and Instagram, and
watching your practice grow, andthen this book coming out, so
(00:50):
I'm so happy to talk to youabout it all.
TOM BRUETT (00:53):
I'm really excited to be here. All right. Well,
let's just get right into it.
Why did you write this book? Iwrote this book because I was
kind of tired of recommendingbooks to clients that were
incredibly heteronormative.
There's a lot of really greatbooks out there. I mean, you've
written a book on gayrelationships, but there's very
few actual books out there ongay relationships. And I think
(01:14):
we just get more out of aresource when it's written for
us. There's case examples thathave us, you know. And so I
really wanted to create aresource that people could look
at and work on to improve theirrelationship. That's great. And
Tom, can you tell us a littlebit about the book? It has a
developmental model built intoit. Is that? Right? Yeah. So the
developmental model, my mentors,doctors, Alan Bader and Peter
(01:34):
Pearson, they founded this modelof couples therapy that's
basically three pillars. Sothere's attachment science,
there's neurobiology, and thenthere's differentiation theory.
And so the differentiationtheory, I think, is what sets it
apart from a lot of differentmodels out there, because it's
really about, how can youconnect with your own wants,
feelings, wishes, desires, andthen tolerate the anxiety that
(01:54):
comes up in a relationship whenyour partner inevitably wants
something different, right?
Right? Right? And so, right, thewhole differentiation, did you
do? You know who David schnarchwas? So David schnarch was, you
know, the big He didn't createdifferentiation. I think he'd
see borrow from Bowen's work,didn't he? Yes,
JOE KORT (02:13):
yeah, but he would be like, God, love him. He's now
deceased, but he was probablyone of the most undifferentiated
humans you would ever meet, eventhough his work was all about
differentiation,that's great. I love
differentiation because it's allabout what makes you right
doesn't make me wrong, whatmakes you good doesn't make me
bad. Can you say more aboutthat? Yeah, I think, like, if we
and I think this concept, like,it's really important in
(02:35):
romantic relationships andfriendships and all that kind of
stuff. But I think even this, ifwe could bring this concept even
further out into the world andto community at large, like
there's going to be differences,and differences are okay.
Differences are how we learnabout ourselves and our partners
and our the people who areimportant in our lives. And so
often we, you know, we getlocked into this pattern of not
differentiating and not reallysharing what's important to us
(02:58):
in our romantic relationships,and it just creates, you know,
either a lot of stale toxicityor a lot of angry fighting.
And I love what you're saying,because it's pretty much most
relationships. But what makesthe book and your work different
with queer relationships aroundthose same issues?
TOM BRUETT (03:16):
So I talk a lot about the things that have
impacted us as queer men, gaymen in in our, you know, growing
up in development. So thedevelopmental differentiation
theory, that's a big componentof of this work. In this book,
really deals with some specificthings that we, we encounter as
gay men. And I've, I've come toa couple of your trainings, so I
know you speak a lot about this,and, you know, there's just,
(03:38):
there are differences to be tobeing queer. I mean, just from
the media representation to theinternalized homophobia to the
overt homophobia, let me thinkabout sex and how, you know,
just the experience of beingqueer really impacts how we show
up in our with our pleasure andour and our bodies and our sex,
JOE KORT (03:58):
right? It's the doubling of the genders, right?
So two women are going to showup very different than two men.
They're going to show up verydifferent from men and
TOM BRUETT (04:04):
women. Yes, yeah.
And I think the gay experiencesis different, you know, we're
not just trying to create carboncopies of heterosexual
relationships. You know, there'sdifferent, different structures,
different sex, sexualities atplay. There's different, you
know, family and communityaspects too.
JOE KORT (04:19):
I spent all of my early years, up until your age,
your your Is it okay if I sayyour age? Sure, okay, then
you're 40, right? In my 40s, Ihad built a heteronormative
relationship with my husband,and I realized, what the hell am
I doing? I'm gay. I don't haveto be heteronormative. I can do
this any way I want. Would youagree that gay and lesbian and
queer relationships have morefreedoms than straight couples.
TOM BRUETT (04:42):
Yeah, it's not all doom and gloom. I think, you
know, certainly I was in apretty, you know,
heteronormative typerelationship earlier on in my
life, and this, the relationshipthat I'm in now is is so much
better, because I could bedifferentiated, and we can, you
know, have differentrelationship structures and
different ways of really.
Communicating about our wantsand needs and desires, and it's
not you know you're when you'reraised just male in this in this
(05:04):
culture, it's very difficult toactually get in touch with all
that internal stuff and then toactually be vulnerable and take
a risk and share it withsomebody else. Can be really
scary.
JOE KORT (05:15):
Yes, especially when we took taking risks and being
vulnerable as LGBT people hasbeen mostly met with trauma,
abuse and rejection, and nowwe're being asked to do it
relationship, right? So that canbring that all up. Yeah, yeah, I
don't know, as your experience,do you work with lesbian couples
TOM BRUETT (05:32):
as well? I do work with a couple lesbian couples,
yep, because
JOE KORT (05:35):
I always find that I and I jokingly say this, but
it's kind of true that you needthe jaws of life to separate
them, because there's so muchoneness. Whereas with gay male
couples, my experience is I haveto feel like the woman in the
relationship, where women say,hey, come back to the
relationship. Come back into theDo you experience that? Or do
you have a different way thatyou see things?
TOM BRUETT (05:54):
Yeah, I think that that does speak to the
attachment piece. I mean, weknow a lot more gay men fall on
the avoidance side of things.
And so, you know, I think whenyou just separate the gender
piece out in attachment, it'slike, okay, if you have two
pretty avoidant people in arelationship, a lot of the work
is going to be, how do youactually take some steps towards
each other and and build somegroup projects, or do some
things together that feelconnecting and bonding, yes,
JOE KORT (06:17):
rather than competitive. And like you say,
avoidant, that's well said,Actually, talk about your seven
developmental stages in thebook. Or you say seven stages,
I'm calling developmental tellus what
TOM BRUETT (06:29):
they are. Yeah. So the seven stages, there's,
there's five that come fromEllen and Pete's original
theory, which are the honeymoonstage, the discovering
differences stage, theexploration stage, and then the
reconnection stage, and thenyou're working towards a goal of
mutual interdependence. I'veadded two additional stages
there. So the second queeradolescence, I think, is really
(06:50):
important. Really importantdevelopmental stage for a lot of
LGBT people, because, you know,our developmental experience is
different. We don't usually comethrough adolescence at the times
our bodies are kind of goingthrough physical adolescence,
and that really does shift theway you're kind of learning
about yourself and relationshipsand all that kind of stuff. And
(07:11):
then the other stage I added wasan agreement stage. I think this
is important for allrelationships, but especially if
you're differentiating andyou're going out and exploring
and trying different things,you've got to come back and
reestablish those agreements ina really clear
JOE KORT (07:24):
way. I like that. And how do you help the couples do
that? So
TOM BRUETT (07:28):
it's really through the process of learning to
differentiate. And I think ofit, I always tell them, it's
like a muscle. So we're going tobe working on building this
muscle of differentiation, andI'm going to be encouraging you
to first. The first step is selfdifferentiation, getting in
there and figuring out what isimportant to you, and then kind
of building up the skills totake those risks and share those
with your partner, and then totolerate that tension like it
(07:49):
can feel really tense if you'veavoided differentiating and
being yourself in a relationshiplike, kind of like you were
describing with your husband.
I'm sure it was a process rightto change those unspoken or
spoken agreements?
JOE KORT (08:01):
Yes, yep, even when I am the level you're using the
word agreement, I use them toowith couples, and I even ask if
somebody tells me they'remonogamous, I will ask them, I
have you negotiated yourmonogamy, because most people
don't understand that's anagreement too.
TOM BRUETT (08:16):
I have quoted you in the book. Yes, I'll look for
that. Thank you. You're welcome.
Thank you for all you've donefor our community. I
JOE KORT (08:26):
love I've loved doing all this, and I love watching
people come up behind me andlearning from them. And I love
that you're working with EllenBader, because she was always
like in the background of allthe theorists and other couples.
But I always loved her work. Iused to use her. She has this
couples contract. I don't know.
She still uses it. I borrowedit, and then she has this one
line that I love when you forbidyour partner you invite secrecy.
(08:46):
Yes, I love that.
TOM BRUETT (08:52):
Yeah, she's done. I mean, she does so much work with
betrayal and infidelity and allthat kind of stuff, which it
takes a lot of differentiationto work through those cases when
there's been a lot of betrayal,or, yeah, any kind of trust
eroding
JOE KORT (09:06):
totally. All right, so you talked about the gay
adolescents, second adolescence.
How does it impact relation?
Well, what is it? First of all,if you could be a little more
explaining, and then how does itimpact?
TOM BRUETT (09:15):
So the second queer adolescence, this is certainly
not a phrase I've coined. Imean, it's kind of around there,
out and about, but I think it'ssomething that we're finally
acknowledging as in the queercommunity, because so many of
us, I'll just speak for myexperience, you know, people, I
would say it's a lot differentfor people who are younger than
me, but I'm still getting 20year olds in my office who are
disowned and, you know, so it'slike the stuff is still there.
(09:36):
But if you're, if you're comingto know who you are, and you're
having to keep bits and piecesof that secret. And then you're,
you know, also trying to figureout how to be in relationship
with somebody else. It's almostimpossible, I think. And so, you
know, in typical adolescence,your brain is developing. You're
experimenting. You're trying allsorts of fun and interesting
things. So many times as queerpeople, we do this after we come
(09:57):
out, or, you know, if you comeout in your 20s, maybe you do
it. You. 20s. If you come outlater than that, maybe it
happens then. And I always say,like, these stages are fluid, so
just because you came through ita little bit doesn't mean you're
not going to go back to it attimes. But you know, people will
sometimes call it like your slutphase, or, you know, you're
having a lot of differentpartners, or you're, you know,
you're just trying andexperimenting, exploring and
(10:17):
figuring out who you are in
JOE KORT (10:19):
the sex addiction community. What I used to hate
when I was part of it is theywould call it sex addiction.
You're acting out in thathypersexual and I used to say,
what you're talking about, thisis delayed adolescence. You
don't understand. Have you everheard somebody calling it a sex
addiction?
TOM BRUETT (10:33):
Yeah, yeah. I mean the sex addiction, I think just
from the inception of that termhas been really dangerous for
the gay male community, but
JOE KORT (10:44):
terrible, right? And I always like to tell clients,
especially if they're 40s, 50s,60s, I've even sure you have two
in their 70s, when they're indelayed adolescence, at least
this time you have money and youdon't have acne, so you get to
enjoy it.
TOM BRUETT (10:58):
And I love that, because I think so often we have
to look for the joy, the queerjoy, the resilience. Because if
we only stay in the thechallenging parts, like it's,
it's, I don't think we're doinganyone a service. I
JOE KORT (11:09):
love that. What you just said, queer joy, wow. Do
you say that a lot?
TOM BRUETT (11:13):
I do, yeah, yeah.
JOE KORT (11:15):
Say more
TOM BRUETT (11:16):
about I just think it's something that so often.
You know, we can read like, ifyou're, if I'm giving a
presentation right on gay malethe gay male population, all of
the statistics are really, youknow, very difficult to absorb.
If we look at just the mentalhealth statistics, you know, the
substance use, all that kind ofstuff. But there's also so much
(11:36):
more about being a queer personthat is full of joy and
resilience. And, you know, Ithink Dan Savage has the quote
like we would during the heightof the AIDS epidemic, we would
bury our friends in the morning,and then we would go and party
at night as a form ofresistance. And I think we need
to, especially right now, like,stay attached to that,
JOE KORT (11:55):
especially right now, absolutely, you say in your
book, you talk aboutrelationship role models for gay
men? Will you share a fewthoughts on that?
TOM BRUETT (12:04):
Well, I think, I mean, I mentioned this a little
bit earlier, but I think you'rea role model, right? I mean, we
lost an entire generation of gaymen. I mean, not an entire
generation. There are people whohave survived, but it's very few
and far between, and so to losethat, you know that breadth of
of, like, our elders, I think itmakes it really challenging to
(12:24):
then look, you know, above usand into what are, what are
relationship structures andrelationships that work? And
there's very few examples, Ithink, out there, of, like,
especially gay men who are, youknow, living a life, who are
ahead of me in age and havefigured this out. And I mean,
you certainly are one of them.
You've been doing this for areally long time, and have
helped our community in a huge
JOE KORT (12:46):
way. Thank you. I've loved it, but I've had to have
my own right side, like BrianMcNaught. Do you know who that
is? Yep, he's been like myelder, right? And then we had,
when Mike and I first gottogether, we had a gay male
couple that were together longerthan us. Thank God, because they
normalize, like you talk aboutthat as well.
TOM BRUETT (13:03):
Oh yeah. I mean, especially, I think it's
shifting with with gay marriageand stuff. But, you know, there,
I think the statistics actuallyshow that LGBTQ couples that are
committed and, you know, staytogether longer than our
heterosexual counterparts. Butit's, I don't, I don't think we,
we can, we can't look into thefuture and say, like, Okay, this
is the kind of relationship Iwant for myself. I mean, there
was nothing on TV or media, andI know we shouldn't always look
(13:26):
to that those places forrelationship role models, but we
need it somewhere, right? If yougrow up in a straight household
and a straight community, andwhere are you getting the
inspiration for living a lifethat feels authentic to you,
JOE KORT (13:37):
right? My role model, or I guess my what I saw
normalized was making love. Doyou know that movie? Oh, it's
such a good movie. It didn't dowell at the box office. It
probably came out at a bad time.
It was like 1981 or something,and it was with Kay Jackson and
Michael onto Keene and HarryHamlin. There was about a gay
man in a marriage heterosexualand he comes out, and then he
has this adolescence and allthis stuff. It just was very
(14:01):
inspiring to think that I could,one was a doctor. One was, I
don't remember, but they have,like, really nice professional
jobs. And back then, you didn'tsee gay people with that, yeah.
I
TOM BRUETT (14:13):
mean, it certainly has shifted in a lot of ways.
But, you know, then there's somefrightening things happening in
the world today. So it's still,you know, we make a little bit
of progress, and then we go backa little bit
JOE KORT (14:23):
in Ellen's community.
Are you one of the is there alot of LGBT doing the work
you're doing? Are you one of thefew?
TOM BRUETT (14:30):
So, I mean, she's thankfully, I mean, she's been a
champion, kind of, since herfirst book in the late 80s. She
had a gay couple in one of herearly books, which, you know,
and she loves working with gayand lesbian and queer couples.
What she said is now thatthere's, as it's become more
accepting for therapists to beout, she's not getting as many
gay and queer referrals becausethey're going to therapists who
(14:53):
self identify as gay or queer.
And there's, I would say,there's a handful of people in
her community. And then that'swhy I really. Created this, this
other training program that'sall queer therapists, because I
wanted to, my early training wasat a place called queer life
space in the Castro in SanFrancisco. And it was, it was
amazing, because we were in acohort of queer, you know,
training therapists we wereworking with in queer community
(15:16):
mental health, and then everyweek we had trainers from around
the community come in and teachus. And there was something so
beautiful and safe aboutlearning in a space that, like,
you didn't have to defend partsof your identity. And, you know,
really, because I think it'shard to learn when that you're
having to have that shield up.
JOE KORT (15:35):
Yes, we'll talk about that training that I know you
offer these LGBT trainings forqueer therapists. Is that right?
TOM BRUETT (15:41):
Yeah. So I've taken, you know, a lot of the
principles from thedevelopmental model work pretty
well, just as they are with withqueer and gay relationships. But
I wanted to kind of create formsthat are all LGBTQ inclusive,
all of like, the role plays andthings you give your clients and
do all the code switching forpeople, so that they can just
learn the model, just likefigure it out. And it's been
really beautiful. I mean, thisyear we had, I had about 25
(16:04):
people from different parts ofthe world. We meet twice a
month, and it's just beenreally, really a beautiful
community.
JOE KORT (16:12):
I can't tell you how much I love this, because I have
a jaded perspective on how a lotof LGBT people feel like they're
the authority, and there isn't ashared authority. It's so
undifferentiated. How did youcreate a community that wants to
be together?
TOM BRUETT (16:27):
Well, I mean, something I say all the time is
like, the queer community is nota monolith. I can't possibly
speak for all of the queercommunity. I can't even speak
for like many of the gay men outthere, right? There's as many
queer and gay people as thereare queer and gay people out
there. Yeah. And so I justinvite other people to share
their you know, we're acommunity. A community means we
learn from each other, we growfrom each other. And, I mean,
there's some great therapists inthere who know a lot more about
(16:50):
neurodiversity than I do, or,you know, other topics. And
they'll, they'll share, they'llit's just a really nice, caring
place to be. I
JOE KORT (16:58):
know, I think it's great. I think you're it's, I
think I'm making this up becauseI don't know for sure, but it
feels rare. It doesn't feellike, if there is other ones,
it's got to be in pockets. Youdon't hear a lot about this
much. I my i feel like mystrength is teaching straight
people how to work with gaypeople. When I tried to bring
together our community like youdid, I'm not good at it, but you
are. It
TOM BRUETT (17:18):
just that's something I think that early
training at queer life spacereally just helped me figure out
how this could work. And, youknow, there's a lot of
differences in the queercommunity, and so we can't
pretend that those aren't goingto be there. But, you know, I
think just acknowledging them,differentiating, bringing it
into the space. And you know,there's no way that you can do
for me personally, like myjourney of every time I learn
(17:40):
something new in the therapeuticway, I grow exponentially as a
human, yeah? And so, you know,we're always evolving and
growing, and that's, I think,one of the beautiful things
about this
JOE KORT (17:48):
work, right? And then what you do is the same thing I
do. You teach it. You find a wayto make it a way to teach. I
love that about you,
TOM BRUETT (17:54):
yeah, yeah. It's really teaching is just, it
really is something that justlights me up. And I like working
with clients, but the teachinghas been really fun. Now.
JOE KORT (18:02):
What about singles?
People will watch us go, Oh,he's only going to be dealing
with relationships. What aboutme? What do you say to them?
TOM BRUETT (18:09):
Something I really, I really was writing this book,
thinking it would be for, youknow, gay couples who are
thinking about couples therapy.
Maybe they're having a littlebit of trouble, whatever. But
I've had a few people, a fewfriends and people in my
community who are single, whoare reading it, especially
younger gay men, and they'relike, Wow, I wish I had, you
know, there's no place to we canreally get these concepts. And
nobody's, nobody's teachingrelationship skills, I think,
(18:30):
just in general. And then youadd on being a gay man on top of
that. And you know, there's alot of people who are, are
feeling lost,
JOE KORT (18:40):
yes, and I always say, even just being men, right? Just
because people forget we're men,we were socialized as boys.
We're socialized as Terence realtalk. They've not turned our
backs on vulnerability. Not haverelational language. We don't
know how to we were taught torun from each other, not toward
each other. So then relationshipbecomes very hard. I'm sure you
see that.
TOM BRUETT (19:00):
Oh yeah, yeah. It's, it's, you know, just the
smallest little act ofvulnerability can feel like the
biggest risk in the world. Andthen you add on, like telling
your partner you want an openrelationship, or something
that's even, like, bigger thanthat, or I don't want kids, or
whatever it could be like that.
Those Those things can reallyupset the apple cart.
JOE KORT (19:17):
How do you deal with talking to couples about open
relationships? Do you just bringit up? Or how does it work? Do
TOM BRUETT (19:22):
work? I mean, I definitely follow where they
want to go, but I I myself, havebeen open relationship. I have
been since the beginning of thisrelationship, and I will
sometimes disclose that topeople, but there's usually, you
know, if they're coming tocouples therapy around it,
there's usually someone whowants it more and someone who
doesn't want it, right? And sogetting them to differentiate
and really get get clear on whatthey want about it, what they
(19:46):
don't want about it, what theirfears are. So, so often people
just want to go to problemsolving right away. And I mean,
that's how we're trained as men,especially like but if you don't
differentiate first and slowdown and really understand, then
you know you're solving thewrong problem. Many, many of the
times, yeah.
JOE KORT (20:00):
Yeah, right. And so many straight therapists, or
just therapists in general, feellike your model. If one wants
monogamy and one doesn't, or onewants something sexually and one
doesn't, then it means that youshouldn't do it because there's
somebody that doesn't. But Ilove what you're saying, and I
say the same thing.
Differentiation is anything onewants to move, one doesn't. One
wants more children or nochildren. One doesn't. It's
beyond just monogamy and sex.
(20:22):
Why do we only teachdifferentiation in everything
but monogamy and sex? And you'resaying, let's do it to
everything?
TOM BRUETT (20:28):
Yeah, I think it's, it is like, like, the hands
down, biggest skill I wish I hadlearned earlier in my life.
JOE KORT (20:35):
Why say more about that? It's, it's
TOM BRUETT (20:38):
something that for I'll just speak my experience
personally, like growing up as agay boy, a little gay boy who
was bullied extensively and allthis kind of stuff, I really
learned to hide and peopleplease. And so I could disappear
into relationships. I could makeother people feel really
comfortable, but I wasn't beingtrue and honest about what I
needed or wanted or desired. Andso taking those risks and like
(20:59):
and experimenting that way inrelationships. It's, it's like,
wow, I can actually, like, stayin connection with somebody and
also have some autonomy. Andit's just like a really
powerful, magical thing. Whatwould
JOE KORT (21:12):
you say to people that you kind of already answered it,
but I think it's good for us tobe direct about it. Who would
say, Well, why do Why wouldanybody need to go to a queer
therapist or queer trainer, likewe've we've made it right so
we're integrated. Why do we needto go back to being insulated?
What would you say?
TOM BRUETT (21:28):
Many of the reasons I hear and and like, like, a gay
couple will come in and they'llsay, oh, you know, we're having
sex issues. We just, we lovedour straight female therapist,
but we just didn't feelcomfortable talking about sex
with her, and there wassomething maybe she was doing,
or something from their pastthat, like, wasn't making that
possible. And so there just feellike there are some topics
where, you know, just becausewe're gay, does gay or queer, it
(21:50):
doesn't mean we understand everyaspect of the community, but
there's something about, like,just just opening the door, that
makes people feel, I think, alittle bit more understood, a
little bit safer. It's the samereason I'll really only go see a
gay doctor, because it's, youknow, I don't want to be not
that there's anything wrong withstraight doctors, and I'm sure I
could get the help and support Ineed, but I really want somebody
(22:11):
who understands and doesn'tpathologize or judge things
about being gay,
JOE KORT (22:16):
right? So that's just being gay friendly, but being
gay informed, yeah, right. Whatelse would you want people to
know about the work you're doingthat we haven't addressed so
far?
TOM BRUETT (22:27):
What else would I want people to know? I just I,
you know, I hope that peoplewill take a little bit of time
and read this book. And the goalhere is just to get people
talking about things. And so atthe end of each chapter in the
book, there's, there'squestions. So if you're reading
it with your partner, you can,you could journal the questions.
(22:47):
You can talk about them like thebook is structured as a way to
actually be a joint project witha partner, or if you're reading
it on your own, to kind ofjournal and get to know a little
bit more about yourself. And Ijust, I just, I really think
that strong relationships buildstrong communities. And I just
think our community, we just,we're like, we could just be so
much greater if we just dealtwith some of these issues that
(23:11):
so many of us have.
JOE KORT (23:13):
I totally agree. What about intergenerational
relationships? You know, I'venoticed in the last five years,
increase of negativity towardyou. Never used to be that way.
In my generation. It was, likejust known and understood, and
unlike in the straightcommunity, where there's always
judgment about older people withyounger people adults, where's
your stance on intergenerationalrelations?
TOM BRUETT (23:35):
I think whatever works for the person is what
works for the person. But youknow, it's so interesting,
because this topic does seem tobe a hot button topic like it. I
think I created a tick tock orsomething about age gap
relationships, and it's likeeverybody has comments on it.
People are this is a topic thatit seems like our community is
really, really invested in, forsome reason.
JOE KORT (23:55):
Well, I didn't understand it either. I did a
tick tock too, like two, threesummers ago, and I got
lambasted, like, just horrible,right? And I was like, What is
this? Is we? It was shocking.
And somebody put in thecomments, and then I got it,
this is, there's a whole body, ageneration, who grew up with
online, with Grindr, with, Idon't know, whatever the old
(24:16):
platform, right? I forget thenames now, but so, but they were
preyed upon by older men throughthese platforms. They never
dealt with it. They never gothelp for it. So they superimpose
that this is a power imbalance,and they they make it well, like
what happened to them is in thisrelationship, and that's not
(24:37):
what this is. Can you speak tothat a little bit? Well,
TOM BRUETT (24:42):
I think if we think about like, the topic of erotic
orientation, right? Some peopleare templates. People just are
attracted to what they'reattracted to. Some people are
attracted to younger guys. Somepeople are attracted to older
guys, different sizes, you know?
And that, I think, has to beokay. Some people are side. Some
people like to top. Some peoplereverse. Like these are just.
Just parts of what, what makesup your sexuality, and if we
(25:03):
could just stop pathologisingAll of it. I mean, as long as
you're not hurting anybody, aslong as it's consensual, you
know, it's legal, whatever thatmeans, you know, like, I think
we've got to just have a littlebit more space and graciousness
around, right?
JOE KORT (25:18):
I actually followed up to my video with this, and they
blasted me for this. But it'strue that when you have a
delayed adolescence, you mightbe in gay year, you might be
chronologically 50, but in gayyears, you're 25 and you meet a
25 year old, and you're in thesame place emotionally and
psychologically, right? So thatthat plays into
TOM BRUETT (25:38):
it, especially like, if we think about it's like a
really common therapist trope,right? Like, if you had a really
difficult traumatic experience,you stopped developing around
whatever age that was that youhad that traumatic experience.
So if your traumatic experiencewas something to do with your
sexual orientation or comingout, or whatever it was, it
makes sense that you would befrozen a little bit around
whatever was happening at thattime.
JOE KORT (25:59):
Yeah. How do you help somebody unfreeze around that
when they come in and they havethat delayed adolescence? What
do you do with
TOM BRUETT (26:06):
them? It takes so much trust. I mean, because
people come in, they trust us astherapists, but they would be
not wise to just automaticallytrust us, right? So it takes
time, and it takes they'reexperimenting with
differentiation with me. And Ithink one of the powers of for
thinking about individualtherapy is like, it gets to be a
(26:26):
reparative attachmentrelationship. And you know, when
we can have that experience witha therapist and connect and
like, actually heal through someof this stuff and go through the
process of differentiation andallow yourself to be fully seen
and taken in and cared for. Imean, personally, that was what
was the most healing about myown therapeutic journey. And
it's something that I thinkthat's part of what I think
(26:47):
change, how change happens intherapy.
JOE KORT (26:50):
I love that. That makes a lot of sense. Can you
tell people when your next roundof trainings are for LGBT
therapists?
TOM BRUETT (26:57):
Yeah. So the next one will start in September, and
it runs for nine months. I'mprobably going to open the I
keep it really small, so I don'tdo more than 30 people, and then
probably in the next like byJune 15, I should have it open
for people who want to sign
JOE KORT (27:12):
up. That's great. And where can they find you? They
can findme@queerrelationshipinstitute.com
TOM BRUETT (27:18):
and on there's the list of all the trainings, and
you can see the book and podcaststuff and everything.
JOE KORT (27:24):
Me, good, all right, good. And then you're on
YouTube, Tiktok, right?
Instagram,
TOM BRUETT (27:29):
yeah, not as prolific as you, but you know,
you have found a way to balanceit all to me, and it can be kind
of exhausting.
JOE KORT (27:35):
I know I don't, yeah, I have loved the marketing part
of this from the day I became atherapist. So I think that's
what it is. I'm a Marketingpassion, and I have a passion
for the work, but I know themarketing can be exhausting to
people, yeah,
TOM BRUETT (27:49):
but I love it, yeah.
And you're so good at I mean,you don't shy away from
controversial topics. You reallyput yourself out there. And I
mean that is practicingdifferentiation and being
vulnerable.
JOE KORT (27:59):
Thank you. I had a coach once say to me, you know,
you're controversial. I'm like,No, I'm not. She goes, Yes, you
are like, No, I'm not. Like, wehad a whole thing at the end. I
was like, Oh, I guess I am.
Thank you so much foracknowledging that before we
stop.
TOM BRUETT (28:15):
No, I'm just, I'm it's been great to talk with
you, and thanks for having meon.
JOE KORT (28:19):
Yeah, thank you so much Tom for coming on the show.
I'm looking forward to watchingmore of your work and your
videos and getting peoplereferred to your training. So
thank you. You can hear more ofmy podcasts on smart sex,
smartlove.com and you can alsofollow me on Twitter, Tiktok,
Instagram, Facebook, YouTube,and then if you want to go to my
(28:40):
website. It's Joe court, J, o,e, K O, R t.com, and all of my
handles everywhere is at Dr. Joecourt, thanks for listening, and
I'll see you next time you
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