Fresh paint, new keys, and a hidden problem you can’t see: the air. We dive into the realities of indoor air quality in brand‑new homes and rentals, where VOCs, moisture, and access restrictions can collide to create costly, preventable issues. From carbon dioxide and ventilation to radon, particles, and the chemistry of off‑gassing, we break down what actually matters and how to test it without wasting time or money.
We share field stories from pre‑drywall inspections and new developments where dehumidifiers were unplugged, basements stayed wet, and “mold curtains” formed under stairs. You’ll hear practical steps to clear VOCs before move‑in, set up effective drying, and verify results with targeted testing. We also call out red flags like builder policies that limit site access and leases that ban mold or air sampling altogether—signals that should push you to negotiate, document, or walk away. For renters and buyers alike, we outline how to protect your health: ask for access milestones, bring in third‑party inspectors, and insist on transparent remediation when problems appear.
We also debunk the comfort of simple numbers. The popular 100‑square‑foot DIY rule overlooks sensitivity and complexity, and research tools like ERMI and HERTSMI were never meant for routine home decisions. Instead, choose protocols that match the problem: moisture mapping, surface confirmation, calibrated air sampling, and continuous CO2 and humidity monitoring. With certified labs and disciplined methods, you can turn data into action—dry, ventilate, remove sources, and verify your fix. If you found this helpful, follow the show, share it with a friend who’s building or renting, and leave a quick review to help others breathe easier.
To learn more about Habitation Investigation, the Three-time Winner of the Best Home Inspection Company in the Midwest Plus the Winner of Consumer Choice Award for Columbus Ohio visit Home Inspection Columbus Ohio - Habitation Investigation (homeinspectionsinohio.com)
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Episode Transcript
Hey everybody, this is Jim, and of course Laura is
here for our podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:06):
Hi, honey.
Your voice sounds scratchy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
Yes, Laura had a cold and then gave me the cold.
But I my nose is totally clear.
SPEAKER_02 (00:17):
Yeah, I never got that bad.
But my voice got messed up, andI have no clue who I got it
from.
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
Who knows?
But my voice is a littlescratchy.
Laura says deep and sexy.
SPEAKER_02 (00:31):
Yes, honey, that that's what I say.
SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
That's what I thought.
Alright, so we did teach a classthe other day.
Laura taught the first half ofit.
I did the second half of itbecause voices.
Her voice, yeah, her voice isstarting to give out.
But we don't have fevers oranything, so the belief is if
you don't have a fever, you'renot contagious.
I don't know if that's reallytrue or not, but I we we felt
(00:53):
fine.
SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
I don't think I've ever had a fever.
SPEAKER_00 (00:56):
No.
So anyway, we taught a class.
It was on air quality, which isa pretty broad subject, which is
it's not just mold.
It's everything.
It is particles that arefloating in the air.
It's carbon monoxide, carbondioxide.
SPEAKER_02 (01:15):
If you have too much of that, um chemicals from
manufactured stuff modeling,yeah.
Radon.
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
The VOCs from out eye, anything that's floating in
the air.
That is part of your air qualityand the pollutants that could be
in it.
But we were talking, and thendid some did one of the real
estate agents were teaching aclassroom?
Because we're we're do we didthis uh at an office.
(01:43):
Yes.
Often we teach online becauseit's super convenient and it's
just convenient for everybody,really.
But this is at an office, andwas an agent that asked a
question about doing air qualityon new builds, or that's even
necessary.
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
I think it was something like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
So, how'd that conversation go?
SPEAKER_02 (02:05):
Basically, that it's very good to do air testing on
new builds, but you know you'regonna come back with stuff.
So the conversation got intowell, how do you get rid of VOCs
in a new build then?
If you know that you've gotthem, what what do you do?
So we talked a little bit aboutsome alternatives and what they
(02:27):
could do before somebody movesin.
So that agent was actuallycontemplating doing something
like that for um for her clientsthen before they move into the
house when she does new builds.
SPEAKER_00 (02:40):
Yeah, because there aren't there's some things you
can do.
It what it depends on thebuilder.
Well, we talk about this, butwith the somebody asked, well,
will the builder let you do dosome of the things?
You know, and this is where wereally got different
conversations, is we don't knowwhether the builder would let
you or not.
There are some builders, and Idid some pre-drywall inspection
here recently.
(03:01):
The owner or buyer of that housewas not allowed to be set foot
in their new house, or what'sgonna be their house, at all the
entire time.
They can only be there for thatlike two-hour time slot that I'm
there doing the pre-drywall, andthen again at the final, they
(03:21):
were not allowed to be there atall, which seems crazy to me.
SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
I I'm sorry, I would still say no.
I would walk, but that's justme.
I mean, we were when we werebuilding our house, we were
literally here every week.
Our builder expected it from us,like he wasn't surprised.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
No, he knew the type of work that we do, right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
So he knew he he willingly volunteered himself
for that one, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
And he did a fantastic job.
SPEAKER_02 (03:48):
Yes, he did.
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Nothing's ever perfect, but he did a fantastic
job.
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
He did as close as you could get.
SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
Yes, yeah.
It's mainly him and his son whodo the work, and then they
subcontract out for uh you knoweight things.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
Like trusses and stuff like that.
They needed help with the craneto pick it up.
SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
Correct.
So you know they you have tooutsource some things.
But the conversation regardingthe new builds is like, well,
they may not let you in there toto do any of these things.
Then we end up, well, is moldeven in new houses because
they're not old.
SPEAKER_02 (04:18):
Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_00 (04:19):
And we're like, wow, there's this whole community
that we have new developmentthat we the house we went into,
it had been remediated two orthree three times before it was
finished, and we can stillvisibly see mold growth in this
place.
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Habitation investigation is the way to go
for a home inspection in Ohio.
Trusted licensed home inspectorsfor your needs from radon to
mold to warranty.
For a great home inspection, youreally can't go.
(04:59):
Visit home inspections inOhio.com.
SPEAKER_02 (05:04):
And I can't they wanted to power wash the walls
in the basement because that wassuch a good idea to get out, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
I can understand if it's really muddy.
Well, you're you're gonna washit, but man, you need to have
some good dehumidifiers in thereto suck that moisture out quick.
And this place, they they theywould unplug the dehumidifiers
when the workers came there.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
And then they'd forget to plug them back in.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Yeah.
But the buyers of that house inthat new development, they're
like, wow, let's look at otherhouses in the neighborhood.
Maybe they don't have the mold.
No, every single house they toldus had the very similar mold.
And we and Laura called thatmold curtains.
The reason she's calling it moldcurtains, if you aren't familiar
(05:53):
with Spanish moss that you'llfind on the trees in Georgia,
Florida, that's what the moldlooked like that was dangling on
the underside of the basementstairs.
SPEAKER_02 (06:06):
Yes.
So and we do have pictures to toprove that.
SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
So And that was after like two remediations.
SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
That was after the Yeah, because we went out.
Yeah, I don't remember.
Like the there there were acouple of times we were out
there and we did our own testingfor stuff for them, so I don't
remember where it all fell.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
Yeah, but I I know they've been remediated at least
once before we went out therethe first time.
But well, then thisconversation, we got new builds
we added to that thing.
Well, if you have somebody who'sleasing an apartment, we talk
about the weird stuff that we'veseen agreements that maybe a
builder puts in, like, hey, youyou can't be out here looking at
(06:52):
anything until we give you theokay, which makes to me that's
suspicious.
I'm like, why am I not able tosee what are you skipping on?
What and apparently knowing,knowingly skipping on that you
don't want us to see.
But anyway, that took us intothe conversation while there's
some apartment buildings orlandlords that in the agreement
(07:15):
you agree that you are not gonnado any kind of air quality or
mold testing in the place.
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
Danger, danger, Will Robins, danger.
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
Why would you put that in there?
Unless you know you got aproblem.
Unless you're like a slum lordand you're expecting well, I
don't want them testing for moldbecause they're gonna find mold.
If you had a house that was youknow it's in good shape, no mold
issues, no moisture issues,you'd be like, Yeah, go ahead
and test.
It's gonna verify the house isin good shape.
If you are telling them theycannot do mold testing, or they
(07:47):
doing that would violate thelease, that's a problem while
they know they likely have anissue.
Or they've had an issue and theycovered it up or they cleaned
it, and they're afraid it mightcome back.
SPEAKER_02 (07:58):
Or they didn't clean it well because they just did it
themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Yeah, and I I understand landlords wanting to
keep things uh cost effectivefor themselves.
I understand that completely.
But you have still have to do itcorrectly.
SPEAKER_02 (08:11):
Well, and and that also got us into the
conversation that the EPA saysthat an area 10 by 10 square
feet is a do-it-yourselfproject.
SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:22):
But how did the EPA come up with that number?
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
Yeah, because that has been a kind of like a
standard that's kind of gone.
For years everywhere.
EPA says that's a do-it-yourselfproject, which kind of helps it
minimizes the severity of theissue, which I guess if you have
a two square foot area mold,that's not you probably do not
need to have a remediationcompany come in and take care of
(08:45):
it.
It's all gonna depend on yourskill level, your tolerance for
wanting to do your own labor,and maybe how allergic you are a
family member is.
But Laura, where did that 10 by10 square foot moldy air, where
did that even come from, and whodid that appease?
SPEAKER_02 (09:05):
So that came from New York, and it was appeasing
landlords who didn't want tohave to fix things that small
and hire a contractor out for itbecause they wouldn't have had
the money to do that and itwould have become expensive.
So they were literally appeasedwhen the EPA said, okay, fine,
(09:27):
you can do it yourself up to ahundred, you know, ten by ten
square foot, hundred squarefoot, and anything over that
then.
Um, so it's up to a hundred, andthen a hundred square feet.
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
A hundred square feet.
So ten by ten, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
And then there's two other levels.
So like up to three fifty, andthen anything over three fifty.
So it's like do it yourself, andthen like an intermediate, and
then a more you've got someissues here, and you need to
definitely have somebody takecare of it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
So was was all right, so does New York State or
New York City even have its ownEPA?
SPEAKER_02 (10:03):
I'm sure I think all states do.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Each state has their own.
I think they do.
So this is probably just a NewYork City or New York State
compromise thing to appeaselandlords so landlords could do
mold repairs or mediationinexpensively.
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
Yeah.
And it's kind of just stuckacross the country.
Kind of like the the whole ErmieHurts Me thing.
That was an EPA thing too.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Explain Ermie and Hurts Me.
SPEAKER_02 (10:32):
So they are they were created by the EPA for
laboratory study, and it waslaboratory study of what?
I'm trying to remember.
So it was to study the mold loadimpact on some specific health
condition.
And I can't remember what thehealth condition was.
But there was a very specificprotocol that you had to do, and
(10:56):
then based upon that protocol,there were like load levels that
they would have, and like therewere certain numbers that you
would get, but you have to dothat specific protocol and and
do it that way to be able to usethose numbers.
Well, the ERMI looks at 25 moldspecies, the Hertzme looks at
(11:18):
like 30 or 50 or something likethat, not much of a difference.
And there's like thousands uponthousands of mold species that
exist that we know of.
I think it's 100,000.
You're literally just looking at25 out of that, and you could
have something significantlydifferent, and it wouldn't show
up.
SPEAKER_00 (11:35):
So the army only looks at 25 different mold
species.
SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
25 different species, and that's it.
It does not look at anythingother than those 25.
And then on top of that, the EPAhas actually come out six times
that I know of off the top of myhead on the internet saying this
is not to be used in aresidence.
This was only for a laboratorystudy.
(11:59):
You should not be using this todetermine issues in the home.
SPEAKER_00 (12:03):
So ERMI, not a good test.
SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
Not a good standard to figure out what's going on in
your house.
You need uh and the the ERMItests that I have seen don't
follow the standard um protocolthat the EPA created to do that
test.
So you can't even use thosenumbers with that protocol
(12:27):
because like they're taking aSwiffer wet uh one of those
Swiffer thingies and justmopping it all over the floor to
pick it up.
You don't have, you know, likewhat the square footage is, you
don't have any of the stuff thatyou were supposed to have to be
able to correlate with whattheir chart is that that say
you've got a problem you don't.
SPEAKER_00 (12:47):
So there's no there's no standard on how they
do the test.
So if anybody any moldremediation or testing will say
professional is wants to do anermie, or you say it hurts me
also in your house or anapartment building, get a new
one, it is not an appropriatetest according to the EPA to do
(13:08):
the standard's not set 'causeit's the the Swiffer thing.
You you could swiffer a hugeroom, okay, which alright face
it, you got a huge ballroom, youswiffer all that with one
swiffer, send it into the lab.
You're gonna pick up some stuffeasily, but you could do a a
(13:29):
another swiffer in a in a littleroom, okay?
And that that ballroom is gonnalook like it's massively
contaminated because all thepores picked up and say this
total number in that ballroom isthe total number of spores you
(13:51):
picked up in that small room.
Okay, total number, but theballroom is like ten times the
size.
That ballroom, in reality, iscleaner than that small room
because you but you're not gonnaget that back on on the data
because you'll just reflect onit.
Do not use Ermie or HertzMe,that that may hurt their
(14:11):
feelings, but EPA has said youguys are designed for laboratory
use only, probably becausethere's standards and uh
conditions for for study.
So anyway, you maybe seriously,uh a home inspection company
that does testing that followsthe protocol from a uh certified
(14:32):
lab is a great way to go.
Laura is normally certified,which means you've gone through
a lot of extra training, whichhelps make sure all of our
inspectors do things correctlybecause if they have questions,
Laura's a person to talk to.
So I can't think of anythingelse, but if you want a class in
your office, give us a call.
(14:53):
We can definitely do that class.
We have like 25 classes, maybe26.
SPEAKER_02 (14:57):
I've got another uh class on decks that we're hoping
that the state will approve witheverything else.
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
Hopefully, within a few weeks, that'll be all
approved, and we'll put that on.
We need to schedule some moreonline, also.
SPEAKER_02 (15:07):
Yeah, we do.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
We do have another class coming up in that office.
SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
Two more one in February and one in March.
SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
So contact contact us if you want an office class.
We can do that.
So I think that's about it forthis one.
Uh yeah, calls for CE classes.
And then if you have moldquestions, indoor air quality
questions, give give us a call.
Thank you.
Bye bye.
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
Bye, everyone.
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