June 10, 2026 • 47 mins
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Caribbean culture is one of the most copied, quoted, and consumed forces on the planet and yet the Caribbean is still too often treated like a place to extract value from, not a place to build value with. That tension sits at the heart of my conversation with Alistair Scott, founder of the Diaspora Legacy Collective, as we dig into how Caribbean futures can be shaped through renewed connection with Africa and the global African diaspora for Caribbean American Heritage Month. We get specific about cultural and creative industries (CCIs) and why music, film, fashion, festivals, and digital storytelling should be treated as serious economic development strategy. That leads us into intellectual property rights, licensing, brand protection, and the unglamorous but critical reality that policy only works when governments invest in enforcement capacity.
From there, we zoom out to the bigger architecture of Afro-Caribbean cooperation: new business modalities that make cross-diaspora partnerships easier, visa and mobility barriers that slow trade, and why language learning and education can function like infrastructure. Along the way, we challenge misinformation that distorts Pan-Africanism, lift up older cooperative models like partner and susu, and point to modern examples like YouTube creator networks and major cultural moments that prove collaboration already works when we let it. If you care about Caribbean history, Caribbean culture, the creative economy, diaspora development, or people-centered sustainability, you’ll leave with both a clearer diagnosis and a more practical vision.
Alistair Scott is founder of the nonprofit, Diaspora Legacy Collective. He is also Principal Advisor at Synergy Ecosystems LLC, a coaching and connections service. A lifelong development generalist and Pan African educator, Alistair is passionate about applying a systems and sustainability lens to rethinking how we organize thriving economies and societies. His career over the last two decades has spanned extensive community development, tourism, workforce development, sales and education; and as a civil servant, entrepreneur and non-profit professional across the U.S and the Caribbean.
He has built up expertise in fostering developing and deploying social capital, particularly when he led the build out of Basta’s Alumni Success workstream and also in his advisory of African diasporan entrepreneurs and young professionals in the diaspora. Alistair also maintains a blog on addressing socio-economic and African diasporan themes, including futuristic takes on countries like Jamaica and Haiti and published a fictional essay in the Atlantic Fellowship’s Moya magazine.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, Dr.
Alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello everyone, Wa Guan Pan WataGuan.
(00:22):
Welcome back to another episodeof Strictly Facts, a guide to
Caribbean history and culture,where we explore the past in
order to better understand thepossibilities of the future.
Today's conversation is centeredaround imagination and
possibility, specifically howCaribbean futures are being
shaped through renewedconnections with the African
(00:43):
continent and its globaldiaspora.
I am certainly not the first andcertainly won't be the last to
say this, but one of thegreatest facets of the Caribbean
is our people and subsequentlythe culture we've built and
produced together.
For generations, the Caribbeanhas been positioned within
global systems primarily as asite of extraction of land, of
(01:06):
labor, of resources, while itspeople's creativity and
intellectual power have beenundervalued or commodified
elsewhere.
Yet across the region and theAfrican continent and wider
diaspora, creative industriescontinue to thrive, offering new
ways of thinking aboutdevelopment, trade, solidarity,
(01:29):
especially, that centers peopleas the most valuable resources.
And if you're unfamiliar withthe term creative industries, or
more broadly referred to ascultural and creative industries
or CCIs, they are the economicsectors that combine creative
products and commercializationof creation, particularly
(01:51):
thinking about, you know,artistic works, whether that be
music, film, fashion, etc.
This is, of course, you know,making so much tremendous sense
to me in terms of the power ofour CCIs when, you know, if you
have your ear to the ground,there is always a festival going
on.
Um, you know, carnival, ofcourse.
That's a whole that actually isan episode idea that I've I've
(02:14):
longed for for a long time todo.
So, but we'll we'll circle backon that.
But all that to say, um, in thisepisode, we're exploring how
CCIs in areas like music, likefilm, as I said, and others
point towards more intentional,people-centered models, not just
for the Caribbean, but for thebetterment of African and
(02:35):
Caribbean connection.
We'll reflect on what it wouldtake to support these futures,
what structural changes areneeded, and how these
possibilities exist within acomplex global political
landscape.
Ultimately, this conversationinvites us to imagine what
becomes possible when Caribbeanand African futures are shaped
by collaboration, creativity,and shared vision.
(02:59):
I'm really grateful to be joinedby Aleister Scott for this very
timely discussion.
Alistair is the founder of thenonprofit Diaspora Legacy
Collective and has several,several years of experience in
community development and thepassion for, as you guessed it,
our creative and culturalindustries.
So, Alistair, I'll turn it overto you.
(03:21):
Why don't you let our listenersknow a little bit more about
you, where you call home, andwhat inspired your passion for
development, pan-Africanism, andsustainability?
SPEAKER_03 (03:31):
Thanks, Alexandra.
Thank you for having me.
Um where I call home.
As an uh immigrant in this uhNorth American land, I am very
much very, very Jamaican as Iwas born, grew up there, came to
the US for college a long timeago, and promptly ran straight
back to Jamaica after college.
(03:53):
Um and then spent another decadeworking there.
So very rooted.
I'm a Kingstonian, I'm aWolmerian, I wear it proudly.
Yeah, like that's why I was kindof brought into uh this world of
Pan-Africanism through a historyteacher of mine at Ulmers, also
(04:15):
Walmerian himself, still teachesthere, actually, now teaching my
nephew.
Love that.
Um after you know, we sufferedthrough the the kind of content
in the textbook, he often wouldmake a deal with us that if he
would behave just tolerablyenough, he would give us some
extra at the end of the class,and that he called, you know,
(04:36):
Black My Story as best part ofevery class.
Right?
And so I had a good fortune ofgetting that sort of extra
knowledge and grounding up toCXCs, fourth, fifth form, and
then in sixth form with therough introduction to A levels
through a more spectacular F formy first assignment.
(04:56):
I kind of reset the hype afterthe CXE grades.
But all that to say that openedup the world about how are we
connected to the continent, someof the things that we thought
were nothing but turn out to bea huge deal, who are some of
these characters from the past,um, what's in a name, so many
(05:17):
things.
And so it sparked, you know, alifelong love for me.
Where sustainability enters thepicture is a bit later.
So I was as a child, evenbefore.
Like, you know, six, seven, Iwatched Captain Planet.
I was all about that.
I wanted to save theenvironment, you know, recycling
as I was that child.
Um, that tempered in highschool.
(05:38):
But uh definitely through mystudies in college and then
through working communities inJamaica that resurfaced and then
was even more uh sort ofcemented through my wife's work.
She's an environmentalist, andso I learned a lot from her and
her work, you know, teaching it,being uh a practitioner in
(06:00):
Jamaica as well.
And so, like in later life, I'vedone a lot of my own education,
you know, listening to realprofessionals in the field,
reading quite a bit tounderstand, like, especially for
now, you know, climate change,how it impacts us, what we need
to do about it, and so on.
So that's a bit about just howI've come to these interests.
SPEAKER_02 (06:21):
Thank you for sharing.
I wanted us to really start ourconversation with talking about
visions for the future, as Isort of alluded to in my intro.
I think there are a lot ofdifferent avenues we could take
this, and you know, it certainlychanges depending on who you
ask.
I think for me, you know, thereare certain things that are very
(06:43):
important, sort of um anunderstanding of a decolonial
way of being, right?
That you were sort of alsoalluding to, um, talking about
and you know, what's in a nameand all of these things.
It can be in gender rights, itcan be in climate change, um,
and you know, how the Caribbeansurvives, given the fact that,
(07:03):
you know, we are some of thesmallest contributors, but are
so severely impacted by climatechange?
There's a myriad of things, butyou know, sort of given the
impetus of our conversation,especially in terms of the
creative and culturalindustries, what is your vision
for the future of, you know, ourpeople, especially in tandem
(07:25):
with our connection to theAfrican diaspora?
And how have you seen these sortof you know, current
trajectories fall short?
Or, you know, maybe there arecertain ones that you think are
doing completely well as well?
SPEAKER_03 (07:37):
As you said, there's so much and so many angles,
right?
My vision, I I've I've forcedmyself in the last few years to
uh craft intentionally positivevisions of the future.
Um, because the negative stuffis really easy.
It's all around us.
There's very many very excellentexperts who do that work, um,
(07:58):
and I read a lot of them.
And so I I've I've put effortinto well, what does the good
part look like if we can?
And so for me, that is uh aworld in which uh African and
Caribbean creativity is explodedand is um properly facilitated
(08:21):
by private sector by governmentsbecause it is the bedrock of our
development.
So I say that, say our peopleare our sort of inexhaustible,
most fungible uh resource,right?
It's evergreen and it'slimitless, not in terms of the
(08:41):
number of people, but in termsof what people create, right?
So technology is just what wework through, it's us.
And so uh a future where we areproperly using that to create
value, and then we are you knowensuring that people are valued
(09:01):
for that is a future I want tosee.
Um to give you a kind of quickexample of how that might be
grounded in reality, um, if wethink about our um sports,
right?
Of course, you know, come fromJamaica, we love sprints.
But the physical facilities inJamaica that have allowed us to
(09:22):
develop in sprinting, a lot ofthat came from Cuban investment.
We didn't pay for that, right?
But we've benefited hand overfist.
We could be, and we are in smallnumbers, training folks from
around the world about how to dothat.
That can be expanded tenfold,even without moving.
So Jamaicans can go, likeeverything else.
(09:44):
There's athletes right nowfilming themselves for their own
blogs.
We can teach that way, you canmarket and brand and license it.
There's so many ways, right?
And it's just our sort of uniqueaddition to the world magnified.
And obviously the reverse canoccur.
And so there's a lot of goodwork out there uh for these
(10:07):
kinds of visions.
If we think about our music,there's many ways in which we
can, you know, have robustproperty protections for the
intellectual property propertywhere we are keeping the value
of the thing where it comesfrom, um, while allowing people
(10:27):
to continue to create and makethings.
And so, like one of the sort ofbest ways of that is if we just
look at the current musicindustry, if we look at
Afrobeats and how Afrobeats cameabout, despite you know, an
environment that did notfacilitate it very well, it
happened anyway because of theforce of creatives, right, and
(10:52):
that innovation and us beingable to then expand the thing.
And so where this has not shownup well, one of the things that
bugged me, honestly, is a longtime ago I participated in
Jamaica's Vision 2030 planningformally.
I was on the Cultural andCreative Industries Committee.
(11:12):
Um, we spent six months workingon that part of the plan with
many of the heads of agencies inJamaica, people who were
definitely gifted, like nobodywas paid for this.
Everybody was taking time offwork half a day, you know, every
week for months.
And so we did not get to dothose same intellectual property
(11:36):
protections that were outlinedin that document.
That whole thing was stifled,you know, in in very, you know,
kind of public ways that peopleare very familiar with with how
we kill policy.
But that document, even when thework we did was heavily
influenced by an older documentstill, um, which I took as the
(11:58):
sort of founding theme of aseries of substantial articles I
did.
So the cultural superstate isfrom an actual ministry document
from 2002 that was guiding uhthe Ministry of Culture at the
time.
So there's so much more we coulddo, and it's not that stuff
doesn't exist, it's right there,we can get it and just implement
(12:18):
it.
Um but while saying so, there'sstill lots of good examples on
the ground.
There's, you know, NGOs working,there's artists doing cool
things.
Um, we have pieces of theinfrastructure that we can use
to do a lot more.
SPEAKER_02 (12:35):
You brought up music, and I have written a bit
in my own work about CCI.
The nerd in me had to pull up afew numbers, right?
Um, and so this is coming froman intergovernmental report.
Um, so it says, you know, musicexports alone reportedly
generated, and this is our USdollars 80 to$100 million
(12:59):
annually for Jamaica, accountingfor at the time, um 1.7% of
total goods and service exports.
Furthermore, the entertainmentsector as a whole generated um
about 71 billion Jamaicandollars between 2012 and 2016 in
US dollars for our listeners whomay be unfamiliar, that's about
(13:21):
500 million um USD.
They're stemming those numbersfrom um over 100,000 event
permits, um, events that werehappening um during those
five-year span.
Um, and the fact that, you know,these events not only are
generating money, they'reobviously, of course, generating
(13:42):
jobs subsequently, but that is amassive percentage of, you know,
our wealth, you know, and toyour point, right?
This also goes then to the thewealth and importance of our
people and of our culture,right?
And so when we talk aboutCaribbean futures and, you know,
really building greaterconnections between the
(14:03):
Caribbean and our diasporas,what does it mean for us to
really treat creatives, youknow, are these people that
we're talking about, um,treating creatives, cultural
workers, entrepreneurs, andstorytellers as our most
valuable resources rather thanjust, you know, people that are
a part of who we are, which isit is what it I think one of the
(14:25):
most, again, beautiful thingsabout us is we just create, we
just do the thing and put itupon TikTok, Instagram, what did
and and then it's not only thatit becomes so massive and
important for us culturally, butit extends out, you know,
amongst various other peoplesand becomes like a you know,
people are like, whoa, you know,I've had people come up to me
(14:48):
and be like, Oh, I heard thisJamaican song on TikTok and you
translate it for me and all ofthese things.
So I just really want us to sortof um cement this understanding
in the value of our people increating, um, because I think
when you look at the numbers, itit gets tricky and complicated,
right?
Because when I quote a numberlike, you know, we made$500
(15:11):
million USD between 2012 and2016.
Somebody could I look panda andsay, wait, then who did it go
to?
Who, you know, and it it beginsthe whole conversation about
these structures, intellectualproperty rights, as you were
alluding to earlier, and severalthings.
But I I just want us to hone inon um these challenges and
(15:34):
perhaps how we can betterreshape and redefine the the
importance of our people becauseI think in a lot of ways it's
not always seen in the moment,right?
Like if you take somebody likeMiss Liu, Miss Liu is a
tremendous figure in ourunderstanding today, right?
Right.
But was she given that samerespect and you know,
(15:55):
understanding in her time?
That's a whole notherconversation, but all that to
say.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
Yeah, I I think if we knew our past, this would be
a no-brainer.
We wouldn't be discussing it,right?
It's because we've been cut off,because that is exactly what our
people um have done formillennia.
Um, it makes me think about notjust the role of uh, you know,
(16:24):
what the the French kind ofmistakenly call grills, right?
Or other such people who are,you know, historians using music
strategically.
Uh jollies who are more kind ofdeep historians, but also like a
conscience for uh societies,right, and rulers.
But also if we look at howartisans were regarded, they
(16:48):
were very central and veryimportant.
So to put into context, I'llnever forget just the look on my
face, like to myself, when Ilearned about uh African
metallurgy in like you know,clean six, seven hundred years
before Europeans got their headsaround it, which was better for
(17:09):
the environment, better qualitymetal than Europeans produced
centuries later with so-calledlower tech.
Our people have a long, long,long, long, long history of
centering the people who createthat was always the engine of
our societies.
And so if we understand that, wesee those same people today
(17:33):
walking around, they'recreating.
What we are doing, or what wehave done, is to keep stopping
those people from creating andcreating value for all of us
that we can then benefit from.
What we see is what it lookslike at the bare minimum, right?
It's just what people havecreated in spite of the
(17:55):
barriers.
What would have happened if umwe had put Bob Marley here
today?
I don't know how much money thatman would have made, would have
been obscene.
Right?
Um and he's just like your mostkind of common garden variety
example.
But to your point about justlike the the numbers and how
(18:16):
this kind of can uh tally up, ifwe understand the value that
people bring when they create,and the fact that they are
creating things that unlikefood, it lasts, you know.
After you've digested it, itkeeps giving.
Right?
And so you keep having value ontop of value, which increases
(18:39):
the value of the thing as moreand more people consume it.
Unlike oil and so many otherthings, you know, that are so
tangible.
Um, so just economicallyspeaking, it's a no-brainer that
you have these elements thattake very little comparatively
to produce something that canadd value for decades
(19:03):
conservatively.
That's kind of one angle of, youknow, looking at it.
It makes me think also about howthis thing can uh expand.
In watching like vloggers andyou know artists and so on.
I was fascinated a few years agoduring during the pandemic when
we all were stuck to ourscreens.
(19:24):
You know, I was watching aJamaican vlogger, and I was
watching him kind of cultivatehis audience over time, and I
see how he'd bring on differentpeople and kind of give them a
platform.
And then over time, I saw him,you know, bring some people on,
then those people could grow.
Some of them surpassed him invalue, right?
(19:45):
Didn't stop them from doing worktogether.
And then that pattern keptrepeating to kind of bring it
home today.
I watch Asafa's content online,right?
And I'm part of the car guy, soI like the car stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (20:00):
I'm a meet the Mitchell's girl, admittedly.
There you go.
SPEAKER_03 (20:03):
Right.
I went to school again so I canget it.
Yeah.
Those people on the back end,they are meeting, they're
sharing equipment, they'resharing space, right?
Um, and they use it to createmore things.
So there's a there's a Ghanaianvlogger I love to watch, who is
(20:24):
always featuring the Africancontinent and business
opportunities and all thepositive stuff.
And that Jamaican vlog I waswatching years ago, remember
when that young man went toGhana, this much more popular
Ghanaian YouTuber took himaround.
Guy stayed in his house.
SPEAKER_02 (20:40):
I've seen that.
SPEAKER_03 (20:42):
Yeah, there you go.
For a solid month, creatingvideos at the same time.
And so these guys are monetizingoff YouTube, each using the same
thing.
That's efficiency, right?
And then now I see Asafa, youknow, get pulled into this
little group of vloggers, right?
(21:04):
Which then produces more moneyfor everybody involved.
Come to this uh HurricaneMelissa thing, I see this
vlogger come in, he gets inAsafa's car, they go deliver
some stuff down a Cent.
Right?
You can't put a money, you can'tput a value on that part.
The guy was here, he was inJamaica for about 48 hours, and
(21:26):
that's what he did with histime, right?
And that's just like a smallexample.
Um, so if we center ourcreatives, we are centering a
big chunk of our economicengine.
We're centering uh an essentialpiece of who we are and ensuring
that we respect it and pay itforward.
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
I think to that point, there are a lot of people
who are talking about our CCIs,right?
It's not like we're just havingthis conversation in a bubble.
Most of us have certainministries of culture.
In whatever you know we callthem in different forms.
Um, there are scholars talkingabout this, of course.
You know, I think of scholarslike Keith Nurse, Susan Burke,
(22:09):
Deborah Hinkling Gordon.
Um, I can keep going.
Um but also, as you're saying,right, creatives who may not
necessarily be using the thethis terminology in terms of
CCIs, right?
But they are steep in it, andthis is the work that they're
doing, and trying to figure outhow to make livelihoods,
(22:31):
generate incomes, and generate,you know, generational wealth
also in that.
But I think as you were alsosort of pointing us to, there
are definitely some issues inhow this has been substantiated,
or maybe a lack of support mightbe a better way of framing that.
Um, and that's not to say thingsare aren't evolving.
(22:53):
I believe just last year um inJamaica, the ministry, our
ministry of culture changed to,I believe it's like there's like
a new form of health insurancespecifically for creatives who
are registered within our CCIframework, right?
Which, you know, to me soundedlike an amazing idea because you
can think of if you're anindependent, right, if you're an
(23:16):
independent entrepreneur, um,not having that safeguard,
anything that happens to you,your family, whatever is
straight out-of-pocket costs,right?
And so to me, that I I just sortof wanted to gauge from you what
are some of the structuralchanges, um, be that policy,
funding, you know, IP, as wewere talking about, intellectual
(23:37):
property, educationalinvestments, et cetera, that you
really feel like we would needto make to certainly affect
greater change and really allowfor these creative
collaborations to truly flourishas you were talking about.
SPEAKER_03 (23:52):
I think there's some key changes.
If I start with what I think wein the Caribbean and even in
African countries can doourselves without external
players, there's a mindsetpiece, which is the biggest,
there's a big policy piece, andthen there's some operational
stuff.
Um, the mindset one is to switchto understanding that we are
(24:13):
investing in ourselves.
And if these things areinvestments, it means you're
putting in today to get moretomorrow from the thing.
You're not looking to extractthe value, to deplete it, right?
You're looking to build it.
Um what this would mean inpractice is that take
(24:35):
intellectual property, forexample, one of the big barriers
for um Jamaica, if, you know, interms of like, you know, the
indicators, the GIs, um, andlike securing different brands
or colours, blah, blah, blah.
It's simply that there's justtoo few lawyers in that, you
know, um, intellectual propertyoffice, right?
(24:55):
And part of that reason is okay,you can't afford to hire more.
And uh to me, that's silly.
Those people, if you hire moreof them, we will gain so much
money from hiring them that itwill pay for them very quickly
and create a revenue stream intothe country.
(25:16):
How do we know this?
Ask Puma.
Long before you know the recentthings with you know them doing
the stuff.
I remember 20 odd years agoseeing Puma use our colours in
big, huge billboards.
SPEAKER_02 (25:29):
I do too, but there you go.
SPEAKER_03 (25:31):
With some grandmas in them church clothes clock up.
Yes.
Right?
Ask the Marley family when theycarry whoever to court, it'll
pay for itself easily.
It's what?
Like if you invest in, put theresources out front, you'll
reap.
Um two is in terms of policy, wehave to create literally new
(25:56):
policy and new modalities to dobusiness, especially across um
the diaspora.
Um, I remember writing a blogabout uh something I termed, I
didn't want to call itPan-African because I know
especially people in theCaribbean don't like that term
really.
So I call it, you know,trans-African uh partnerships
and trans-African businesses.
SPEAKER_02 (26:17):
I would ask you to say more, but I don't want it to
cut off itself.
SPEAKER_03 (26:21):
Oh yeah, oh, cause that would get yes.
I have so many things to say onthat.
Um, you know, and that's justlike a bit of myopia on our
part.
But we need structures thatenable us to connect and do
business and do life together.
That's your your visa regimes,that is changing how we think
about language.
(26:42):
Um, so I admire Haitians becausethey teach their language, and
it doesn't stop them fromlearning French.
My roommate in college, Kenyan,you know, we both did A levels,
but what?
He comes, he did his A levels,but he spoke three, maybe four
(27:02):
languages coming into college.
Right?
Me, I was stuck with this, youknow, in my head about speak
proper English as all that wasin my brain at the time.
Huge disadvantage.
So with our increasing facility,we can open up a lot just by
doing that.
So in the region, for example,we should all be learning some
(27:25):
African lingua franca.
It doesn't have to be uh aSwahili at all.
It can be many other things, youknow, your household, whatever.
It can be a tree language sinceso many of us, definitely in
Jamaica and in like EasternCaribbean, so many of us do have
you know um hereditary fromGhana and surrounding areas.
(27:46):
But we should all be learningSpanish.
And I didn't like Spanish inschool, hated it, but it's
common sense.
Right, and so by changing thosethings at the policy level, we'd
open ourselves up.
But in terms of the types ofbusinesses, it means that we
need to have modes of business.
Like literally, when you go tothe company's office to register
(28:07):
a business, you need differenttypes that would say, okay, you
are doing this partnership withum somebody in Haiti for this
purpose, you're doing anotherkind of thing, you're doing a
licensing agreement, and there'sa form of business that allows
it and brings down the barriersto trade because we should
(28:28):
literally be marketing andbranding akey that is that is
produced in Ghana, right?
And ship all that come here sowe don't have to you and I don't
have to spend$17 a tin.
We could be spending nine.
It's that.
So those modalities are thethings that internally we can do
(28:52):
if we think differently aboutthese things.
SPEAKER_02 (28:56):
I'm going to push back on that point because I do,
if you'll entertain me a littlebit.
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
Um well I I sort of do want you to to name what
you've seen as the issues withpeople's understanding of or you
know, acceptance ofPan-Africanism.
Because, and I say that becauseI think in a lot of ways, what
we're talking about builds on orpotentially could build on um
(29:22):
older Pan-African and diasporicconnections and the ways that
we've been able to buildtogether, especially as we move
across, you know, nations andand extend our diaspora out, the
way that we've been able to notonly live and survive, but
thrive and build certaincommunities, whether that's in
(29:44):
England, in Toronto, it youknow, it goes on and on.
And that's just me from anAnglophone speaking Caribbean
perspective, naming thoseplaces.
And so, one, what what do yousee as that issue with with the
framing of Panafhrinism?
But more directly to ourconversation, how do us sort of
(30:07):
reorienting our understandingsof the potential for our um
cultural and creativeindustries, you know, create new
models for us to, you know,trade and build economic
cooperation and also build onthese older frameworks that we
might not even be intentionallythinking about because they're
(30:29):
so innate to us.
Uh not too long ago, and this isjust to give another like
smaller example, not too longago I had a conversation talking
about Padna.
Like the way that Padna has sentpeople to school, has built
hoses, right, has you know sentpeople to med school, etc.
Like is a is a very importantpart of our culture and still
(30:49):
is.
And so if we are sort ofunderstanding the impact of um
where we've come from and youknow turning it on its head a
little bit, obviously, becausenew technologies, etc.
But what are what are some ofthe potentials that we have um
to create change and greatereconomic prosperity for us in
(31:11):
unity together?
SPEAKER_03 (31:12):
Yeah, those are all exciting things to meet because
as you said, there are so manythings in our culture, in our
history, that we can bringforward or that we can magnify
so that we can all thrive.
But we have first have to valueself.
And so we have to literally, uhas some people, it's like
decolonize our tongues.
(31:32):
We need to get this stuff out ofour heads.
Um, and so a lot of thedisinformation around, say, one
of my favorite people,disinformation around Marcus
Cari, for example, get out ofthe head because then you start
to see some common sense things.
So if you take his most malignedidea with the ships, right, and
(31:54):
see why Kwame Nkrumah wantedthat thing in the middle of his
national flag, it is clearlybecause if you look around for
centuries up to this very day,everybody has ships making a ton
of money moving things.
So obviously, shipping is a goodidea, right?
And then if you have peoplebeing able to crowdfund a
(32:18):
shipping company, this also is avery good idea because we all
aspire to you know put money inthe stock market and get rich
tomorrow.
Um, it's also a good idearecognizing all the different
places we are, and okay, you youstop, stop, and you drop off,
and you pick up.
This is elemental trade.
So the concept seems to be quitecommon sense.
(32:42):
The execution, much to bedesired.
But we've been sort of grown upto you know goof out those
things.
You know, I was a little dartman thinking silly, right?
And so that's the stuff killingus.
Um, because we've been doingthese things.
I was listening to uh TrevorFonnow uh interview me and
(33:03):
Motley recently, you know, TimeSabados, and they were talking
about the same partner, right?
And I made me think aboutcompanies like Susu, which have
built a nice, you know, digitalenterprise out of it.
And so that's the point.
All those things in our heritagewe can bring forward and remix
and make into powerful uhthings.
(33:26):
Um, I think literally to comeback to say Haiti, Haitians can
be the gateway for the Caribbeanand for West Africans,
French-speaking West Africans,into the US market, for example,
because they straddle not justthe language facility, but
unlike, say, Jamaicans or unlikeTrine's, they're more like uh
(33:49):
Brazilians in a sense becausethey embody so much more, you
know, recognizable Africanculture in their ways of knowing
and being still.
So they're far betterinterlocutors, right?
Um, so there's opportunitiesthere.
So I think if we understood ourpeople and understood that
(34:09):
period when Pan-Africanism wasgoing on, what they were trying
to do, we would far moreunderstand where the
opportunities are.
Because if we look at each otherwithout the middle person, then
you see that no, there's somestuff here.
Last example I'd pull on is I'vecome to really admire both of
the women Garvey uh married,right?
(34:30):
So we know Amy Jake wrote allthe books, ran the businesses,
kept everybody sane.
One one incredible, cuts off tothis woman, right?
But the other lady, all Ilearned in high school was that
okay, they were married for afew months and I'm separate and
she still worked in the thing.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
And they mix up, it mixed up, and that is why it was
a very recent episode, strictly.
Because it nothing the mix-up isthe story, and it's not the
mix-up that should be theimportant part of the story.
But anyways, me vex about it,but it's alright, career.
SPEAKER_03 (35:04):
Here is one lady who went around the world building
and selling Pan-Africanism andmaking all the connections.
She got to travel to thecontinent several times where he
never go.
Right?
She got to meet stars, you know,connecting everybody and moving
stuff forward in the background,right?
That tells us just literallyjust the role women play in our
(35:28):
societies culturally as well.
You know?
If you're talking about eitherto stop around the men and be
like, come get it, get yourselftogether, let's get this thing
done.
Or that person stitchingtogether and managing and moving
and pushing, right?
Using the brain power to push anidea, um, these are all old
(35:49):
things.
And so that to me is the powerof Pan-Africanism.
But we have so much spacebetween that and the
misinformation that we alldigest so often, you know, that
it becomes a thing.
SPEAKER_02 (36:03):
There definitely needs to be greater orientation
around our education.
And whether that be, you know,in the classroom, which of
course for a lot of people wouldthink is the most, you know,
direct change, but alsoeducation outside of the
classroom too.
Um, I think there's definitelysort of a mythos and
(36:24):
misunderstanding of a lot of umart history generally.
But I think what's been mostpuzzling to me, and this is just
off a tangent, is that the 20thcentury was wedia, you know.
It it would be one thing maybeif we were talking about the
1800, the 17 and 1800s under solong ago.
But like we're talking about mygrandparents' time that my you
(36:47):
know, but all that to say, inour conversation, we have given
so many examples of you know,ways that our pop culture is
definitely evidence of theimpact of our cultural and
creative industries.
I have one that I'm going toreference, but I definitely
wanted to ask you what are someof your favorite examples of the
(37:09):
wealth and possibilities of ourCCIs as they show up in
Caribbean popular culture.
SPEAKER_03 (37:14):
As a 90s uh person, right?
But in the 80s, coming of age inthe 90s, there's still
something, there's always uhthings that will stick with me,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
Nothing like 90s dancer, nothing like it.
SPEAKER_03 (37:28):
Um I like how it's you know spawned so much.
It created regular ton.
One rhythm.
Right?
They didn't even understand whatthe rhythm was about, and it
still spawned a whole othergenre of music.
That for me is is reallypowerful.
It's a really powerful example.
(37:49):
But also, if I think about othertypes of, you know, creative
endeavors like food.
Um, I remember when I learnedthat for the the UK, you know,
curry, you know, the mostpopular, you know, lunchtime
dish.
And I'm like, okay, it's thismashup between obviously
Indians, Pakistanis coming withthe curry, but a lot of it's
Jamaican curry too.
(38:10):
And so that ability, there'ssomething there with how well we
are able to literally, you know,like because we said
colonization reverse, right?
But we literally are.
We do that, we transmit ideaspowerfully, and we are really
good at it to the point where Iknow I forget who it was, but
(38:31):
like some Nigerian guy, I was atsome conference and he was like,
you know, grew up in England,he's like he's so influenced by
Jamaican culture and by carnivalculture, and you know, Nigerians
are pretty uh, you know,adamant, you know, and strong
about their thing, but stillit's like it's overwhelming,
(38:55):
right?
So there is a the extent towhich Caribbean people in any
space rub their culture off onthe people around them while
usually keeping their own is athing.
And so like that I marvel at.
And there's a lot there that wecan and should be doing with
that.
(39:15):
I think the other big thing I Ilook at for you know Caribbean
culture writ large and just howit goes out into the world is if
I think about just Jamaica as agroup, you know, I have not met
anyone.
And like, you know, we've beenin US for a decade, and even for
(39:37):
like my good friends who travela lot more than I do, never met
somebody who never heard ofJamaica.
Hasn't happened.
They may not know exactly whereit is, but they know about it,
they know they like it, even ifthey don't know why they like
it.
But they're for it you must beable to build on that right in
(40:02):
so many ways.
And it's not just about themoney, but that sort of uh
cultural capital is is too realto ignore.
SPEAKER_02 (40:13):
I thought of very sort of similarly in the same
lines because I was there at theshow, um, was that December 2022
now when Burnaboy performed inon that national stadium.
Um and now to Born Burnaboy'scredit, he did not just come to
Jamaica, he went to variousother islands in the Caribbean.
So it was it was a verypan-Caribbean tour, right, to
(40:34):
bridge.
I mean, I'm not trying to getinto a favoritism argument, but
but all that to say, right?
The fact that, you know, thereare these moments, especially in
popular culture like that, thatdemonstrate, as you were saying,
the impact and influence, right,for him and PopCon to do a song
(40:54):
together that hits charts,right, globally and all of these
things really demonstrates thepower of not only who we are and
our abilities to build, but Iremember standing in the stadium
and you know, obviously I'm partof the show, I'm singing along,
etc.
But to some of the points thatyou were making on language
earlier, I know how half thepeople that there probably never
(41:19):
spoke a lick of whatever, right?
But everybody figure everybodyvery quickly figure out what
Igbo and Shio and all the thingsmeant, right?
And so there is a a way that,you know, when we work together
um and sort of building in thisframework of Pan-Africanism, as
you were saying, allows us tosolidify ourselves from like a
(41:43):
psychological perspective, ofcourse, an economic perspective,
um, building cooperation, butthere are there are just so many
possibilities there, and Iwanted to for us to give space
to that.
I'm going to ask one morequestion because you know, I
feel like we could go on and on.
Um, but you know, lookingforward, what might a future of
(42:05):
Caribbean and Africandevelopment sort of in a model
sense look like?
Um, in your view, if we werereally to intentionally build
around this creative labor andour shared histories and you
know, well collective well-beingreally as the foundation of our
sustainable development?
SPEAKER_03 (42:24):
Well, I think there are a lot of pieces in place
that can pretend to be reallygood.
By that I mean so we are alreadythe sixth region for the African
Union, which is huge.
Right?
And that is, you know, the wholediaspora.
If we were to really use thosethings and especially look at
(42:49):
each other without thatmiddleman, then we can have a
future where we are part of thefastest growing, most dynamic
trading block, where we are umthe most diverse set of like uh
(43:10):
connected people because theAfrican continent has the
richest diversity in mostmeasures, you know, languages,
stuff under the ground, thepeople there, blah blah blah.
Never end.
If we were to make sure peoplecan move, and it's a point that
me and Matley was making theother day as well, if we ensure
(43:33):
people can move, the ideas willmove, the money will move, we
can have a society where we arefar more integrated digitally,
educationally, culturally,because for all of us who live
somewhere else outside of theCaribbean, we meet other people
(43:54):
of African descent, we know it'sour people.
Right?
It's in the look in the eye, youdrop our shoulder, all the
things, you kiss it eat,whatever you want to pick on,
how we like with food, it's ourpeople.
We know that.
And so we can build economiesthat understand that and sort of
(44:14):
thrive on that connectivity.
Um to put it into brass tacks, Ican imagine where we have
integrated educational systems,right?
Where you know a teacher in St.
Vincent doing a geography lessonum on, you know, uh, say the
Aldevi Gorge and the valleysaround it, you know, those kids,
(44:38):
it could be a digital classroom,or where the kids are like in a
WhatsApp group with kids inKenya and Uganda.
What the name of that somethingthere?
Da-da-da-da.
Right?
Like, show me a picture,da-da-da, your parents tomorrow
in dear, yes.
That'd be awesome.
Um, we can have a situationwhere we are all multilingual
(45:01):
because our economicarrangements and social
arrangements require that, whichmakes us stronger even outside.
Um, so there's a lot of room forthat in a kind of growing part
of the world that's superdynamic, where we can use the
technology to have a societythat is very people focused,
(45:24):
that is a fun place to be, um,and that is very stimulating and
creative, all very possible.
And better food.
SPEAKER_02 (45:37):
That's wonderfully said.
I I definitely agree.
I, you know, I started off withthis point of Caribbean futures
because I think sometimes therealities of where we are um are
so pressing, and I'm not takingfrom that, but the reality is
sometimes so pressing that it'shard to sort of imagine what
that looked like, what thatmight look like in practice,
(45:58):
right?
Or um we say sweeping thingslike decolonize our knowledge,
right?
But we don't we don't know whatthat might look like.
But to your point, right?
It could be a a WhatsApp groupwith kids in Kenya and kids in
St.
Vincent.
So there are so manypossibilities.
Um there, I thank you so muchfor joining me for this episode.
(46:19):
I think we've been able to coversuch a rich discussion of you
know what the future of you knowthe Caribbean might look like
and also the future of Caribbeanand African diasport connection
might look like as well.
Um, for our listeners who aretuning in, I hope you enjoyed
this episode.
We certainly do.
Um, if you want to follow alongmore with um Alastair, he is a
(46:43):
phenomenal writer, I will alsosay.
Um, and I will link his blog inour show notes if you want to
check out more.
So big up to him for that.
Um, but yes, overall, I thinkyou know, our cultural and
creative industries aredefinitely a place for us to
further tap into.
Um and so if you have thoughts,you know, if you enjoyed this
episode and want to want to hearmore about, you know, other
(47:06):
possibilities for our CCIs,definitely send me a message and
you know, we can bring furtherconversations about the CCIs to
the fore.
Till next time, everyone.
As always, look more.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, Dr.
Alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello everyone, Wa Guan Pan WataGuan.
(00:22):
Welcome back to another episodeof Strictly Facts, a guide to
Caribbean history and culture,where we explore the past in
order to better understand thepossibilities of the future.
Today's conversation is centeredaround imagination and
possibility, specifically howCaribbean futures are being
shaped through renewedconnections with the African
(00:43):
continent and its globaldiaspora.
I am certainly not the first andcertainly won't be the last to
say this, but one of thegreatest facets of the Caribbean
is our people and subsequentlythe culture we've built and
produced together.
For generations, the Caribbeanhas been positioned within
global systems primarily as asite of extraction of land, of
(01:06):
labor, of resources, while itspeople's creativity and
intellectual power have beenundervalued or commodified
elsewhere.
Yet across the region and theAfrican continent and wider
diaspora, creative industriescontinue to thrive, offering new
ways of thinking aboutdevelopment, trade, solidarity,
(01:29):
especially, that centers peopleas the most valuable resources.
And if you're unfamiliar withthe term creative industries, or
more broadly referred to ascultural and creative industries
or CCIs, they are the economicsectors that combine creative
products and commercializationof creation, particularly
(01:51):
thinking about, you know,artistic works, whether that be
music, film, fashion, etc.
This is, of course, you know,making so much tremendous sense
to me in terms of the power ofour CCIs when, you know, if you
have your ear to the ground,there is always a festival going
on.
Um, you know, carnival, ofcourse.
That's a whole that actually isan episode idea that I've I've
(02:14):
longed for for a long time todo.
So, but we'll we'll circle backon that.
But all that to say, um, in thisepisode, we're exploring how
CCIs in areas like music, likefilm, as I said, and others
point towards more intentional,people-centered models, not just
for the Caribbean, but for thebetterment of African and
(02:35):
Caribbean connection.
We'll reflect on what it wouldtake to support these futures,
what structural changes areneeded, and how these
possibilities exist within acomplex global political
landscape.
Ultimately, this conversationinvites us to imagine what
becomes possible when Caribbeanand African futures are shaped
by collaboration, creativity,and shared vision.
(02:59):
I'm really grateful to be joinedby Aleister Scott for this very
timely discussion.
Alistair is the founder of thenonprofit Diaspora Legacy
Collective and has several,several years of experience in
community development and thepassion for, as you guessed it,
our creative and culturalindustries.
So, Alistair, I'll turn it overto you.
(03:21):
Why don't you let our listenersknow a little bit more about
you, where you call home, andwhat inspired your passion for
development, pan-Africanism, andsustainability?
SPEAKER_03 (03:31):
Thanks, Alexandra.
Thank you for having me.
Um where I call home.
As an uh immigrant in this uhNorth American land, I am very
much very, very Jamaican as Iwas born, grew up there, came to
the US for college a long timeago, and promptly ran straight
back to Jamaica after college.
(03:53):
Um and then spent another decadeworking there.
So very rooted.
I'm a Kingstonian, I'm aWolmerian, I wear it proudly.
Yeah, like that's why I was kindof brought into uh this world of
Pan-Africanism through a historyteacher of mine at Ulmers, also
(04:15):
Walmerian himself, still teachesthere, actually, now teaching my
nephew.
Love that.
Um after you know, we sufferedthrough the the kind of content
in the textbook, he often wouldmake a deal with us that if he
would behave just tolerablyenough, he would give us some
extra at the end of the class,and that he called, you know,
(04:36):
Black My Story as best part ofevery class.
Right?
And so I had a good fortune ofgetting that sort of extra
knowledge and grounding up toCXCs, fourth, fifth form, and
then in sixth form with therough introduction to A levels
through a more spectacular F formy first assignment.
(04:56):
I kind of reset the hype afterthe CXE grades.
But all that to say that openedup the world about how are we
connected to the continent, someof the things that we thought
were nothing but turn out to bea huge deal, who are some of
these characters from the past,um, what's in a name, so many
(05:17):
things.
And so it sparked, you know, alifelong love for me.
Where sustainability enters thepicture is a bit later.
So I was as a child, evenbefore.
Like, you know, six, seven, Iwatched Captain Planet.
I was all about that.
I wanted to save theenvironment, you know, recycling
as I was that child.
Um, that tempered in highschool.
(05:38):
But uh definitely through mystudies in college and then
through working communities inJamaica that resurfaced and then
was even more uh sort ofcemented through my wife's work.
She's an environmentalist, andso I learned a lot from her and
her work, you know, teaching it,being uh a practitioner in
(06:00):
Jamaica as well.
And so, like in later life, I'vedone a lot of my own education,
you know, listening to realprofessionals in the field,
reading quite a bit tounderstand, like, especially for
now, you know, climate change,how it impacts us, what we need
to do about it, and so on.
So that's a bit about just howI've come to these interests.
SPEAKER_02 (06:21):
Thank you for sharing.
I wanted us to really start ourconversation with talking about
visions for the future, as Isort of alluded to in my intro.
I think there are a lot ofdifferent avenues we could take
this, and you know, it certainlychanges depending on who you
ask.
I think for me, you know, thereare certain things that are very
(06:43):
important, sort of um anunderstanding of a decolonial
way of being, right?
That you were sort of alsoalluding to, um, talking about
and you know, what's in a nameand all of these things.
It can be in gender rights, itcan be in climate change, um,
and you know, how the Caribbeansurvives, given the fact that,
(07:03):
you know, we are some of thesmallest contributors, but are
so severely impacted by climatechange?
There's a myriad of things, butyou know, sort of given the
impetus of our conversation,especially in terms of the
creative and culturalindustries, what is your vision
for the future of, you know, ourpeople, especially in tandem
(07:25):
with our connection to theAfrican diaspora?
And how have you seen these sortof you know, current
trajectories fall short?
Or, you know, maybe there arecertain ones that you think are
doing completely well as well?
SPEAKER_03 (07:37):
As you said, there's so much and so many angles,
right?
My vision, I I've I've forcedmyself in the last few years to
uh craft intentionally positivevisions of the future.
Um, because the negative stuffis really easy.
It's all around us.
There's very many very excellentexperts who do that work, um,
(07:58):
and I read a lot of them.
And so I I've I've put effortinto well, what does the good
part look like if we can?
And so for me, that is uh aworld in which uh African and
Caribbean creativity is explodedand is um properly facilitated
(08:21):
by private sector by governmentsbecause it is the bedrock of our
development.
So I say that, say our peopleare our sort of inexhaustible,
most fungible uh resource,right?
It's evergreen and it'slimitless, not in terms of the
(08:41):
number of people, but in termsof what people create, right?
So technology is just what wework through, it's us.
And so uh a future where we areproperly using that to create
value, and then we are you knowensuring that people are valued
(09:01):
for that is a future I want tosee.
Um to give you a kind of quickexample of how that might be
grounded in reality, um, if wethink about our um sports,
right?
Of course, you know, come fromJamaica, we love sprints.
But the physical facilities inJamaica that have allowed us to
(09:22):
develop in sprinting, a lot ofthat came from Cuban investment.
We didn't pay for that, right?
But we've benefited hand overfist.
We could be, and we are in smallnumbers, training folks from
around the world about how to dothat.
That can be expanded tenfold,even without moving.
So Jamaicans can go, likeeverything else.
(09:44):
There's athletes right nowfilming themselves for their own
blogs.
We can teach that way, you canmarket and brand and license it.
There's so many ways, right?
And it's just our sort of uniqueaddition to the world magnified.
And obviously the reverse canoccur.
And so there's a lot of goodwork out there uh for these
(10:07):
kinds of visions.
If we think about our music,there's many ways in which we
can, you know, have robustproperty protections for the
intellectual property propertywhere we are keeping the value
of the thing where it comesfrom, um, while allowing people
(10:27):
to continue to create and makethings.
And so, like one of the sort ofbest ways of that is if we just
look at the current musicindustry, if we look at
Afrobeats and how Afrobeats cameabout, despite you know, an
environment that did notfacilitate it very well, it
happened anyway because of theforce of creatives, right, and
(10:52):
that innovation and us beingable to then expand the thing.
And so where this has not shownup well, one of the things that
bugged me, honestly, is a longtime ago I participated in
Jamaica's Vision 2030 planningformally.
I was on the Cultural andCreative Industries Committee.
(11:12):
Um, we spent six months workingon that part of the plan with
many of the heads of agencies inJamaica, people who were
definitely gifted, like nobodywas paid for this.
Everybody was taking time offwork half a day, you know, every
week for months.
And so we did not get to dothose same intellectual property
(11:36):
protections that were outlinedin that document.
That whole thing was stifled,you know, in in very, you know,
kind of public ways that peopleare very familiar with with how
we kill policy.
But that document, even when thework we did was heavily
influenced by an older documentstill, um, which I took as the
(11:58):
sort of founding theme of aseries of substantial articles I
did.
So the cultural superstate isfrom an actual ministry document
from 2002 that was guiding uhthe Ministry of Culture at the
time.
So there's so much more we coulddo, and it's not that stuff
doesn't exist, it's right there,we can get it and just implement
(12:18):
it.
Um but while saying so, there'sstill lots of good examples on
the ground.
There's, you know, NGOs working,there's artists doing cool
things.
Um, we have pieces of theinfrastructure that we can use
to do a lot more.
SPEAKER_02 (12:35):
You brought up music, and I have written a bit
in my own work about CCI.
The nerd in me had to pull up afew numbers, right?
Um, and so this is coming froman intergovernmental report.
Um, so it says, you know, musicexports alone reportedly
generated, and this is our USdollars 80 to$100 million
(12:59):
annually for Jamaica, accountingfor at the time, um 1.7% of
total goods and service exports.
Furthermore, the entertainmentsector as a whole generated um
about 71 billion Jamaicandollars between 2012 and 2016 in
US dollars for our listeners whomay be unfamiliar, that's about
(13:21):
500 million um USD.
They're stemming those numbersfrom um over 100,000 event
permits, um, events that werehappening um during those
five-year span.
Um, and the fact that, you know,these events not only are
generating money, they'reobviously, of course, generating
(13:42):
jobs subsequently, but that is amassive percentage of, you know,
our wealth, you know, and toyour point, right?
This also goes then to the thewealth and importance of our
people and of our culture,right?
And so when we talk aboutCaribbean futures and, you know,
really building greaterconnections between the
(14:03):
Caribbean and our diasporas,what does it mean for us to
really treat creatives, youknow, are these people that
we're talking about, um,treating creatives, cultural
workers, entrepreneurs, andstorytellers as our most
valuable resources rather thanjust, you know, people that are
a part of who we are, which isit is what it I think one of the
(14:25):
most, again, beautiful thingsabout us is we just create, we
just do the thing and put itupon TikTok, Instagram, what did
and and then it's not only thatit becomes so massive and
important for us culturally, butit extends out, you know,
amongst various other peoplesand becomes like a you know,
people are like, whoa, you know,I've had people come up to me
(14:48):
and be like, Oh, I heard thisJamaican song on TikTok and you
translate it for me and all ofthese things.
So I just really want us to sortof um cement this understanding
in the value of our people increating, um, because I think
when you look at the numbers, itit gets tricky and complicated,
right?
Because when I quote a numberlike, you know, we made$500
(15:11):
million USD between 2012 and2016.
Somebody could I look panda andsay, wait, then who did it go
to?
Who, you know, and it it beginsthe whole conversation about
these structures, intellectualproperty rights, as you were
alluding to earlier, and severalthings.
But I I just want us to hone inon um these challenges and
(15:34):
perhaps how we can betterreshape and redefine the the
importance of our people becauseI think in a lot of ways it's
not always seen in the moment,right?
Like if you take somebody likeMiss Liu, Miss Liu is a
tremendous figure in ourunderstanding today, right?
Right.
But was she given that samerespect and you know,
(15:55):
understanding in her time?
That's a whole notherconversation, but all that to
say.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
Yeah, I I think if we knew our past, this would be
a no-brainer.
We wouldn't be discussing it,right?
It's because we've been cut off,because that is exactly what our
people um have done formillennia.
Um, it makes me think about notjust the role of uh, you know,
(16:24):
what the the French kind ofmistakenly call grills, right?
Or other such people who are,you know, historians using music
strategically.
Uh jollies who are more kind ofdeep historians, but also like a
conscience for uh societies,right, and rulers.
But also if we look at howartisans were regarded, they
(16:48):
were very central and veryimportant.
So to put into context, I'llnever forget just the look on my
face, like to myself, when Ilearned about uh African
metallurgy in like you know,clean six, seven hundred years
before Europeans got their headsaround it, which was better for
(17:09):
the environment, better qualitymetal than Europeans produced
centuries later with so-calledlower tech.
Our people have a long, long,long, long, long history of
centering the people who createthat was always the engine of
our societies.
And so if we understand that, wesee those same people today
(17:33):
walking around, they'recreating.
What we are doing, or what wehave done, is to keep stopping
those people from creating andcreating value for all of us
that we can then benefit from.
What we see is what it lookslike at the bare minimum, right?
It's just what people havecreated in spite of the
(17:55):
barriers.
What would have happened if umwe had put Bob Marley here
today?
I don't know how much money thatman would have made, would have
been obscene.
Right?
Um and he's just like your mostkind of common garden variety
example.
But to your point about justlike the the numbers and how
(18:16):
this kind of can uh tally up, ifwe understand the value that
people bring when they create,and the fact that they are
creating things that unlikefood, it lasts, you know.
After you've digested it, itkeeps giving.
Right?
And so you keep having value ontop of value, which increases
(18:39):
the value of the thing as moreand more people consume it.
Unlike oil and so many otherthings, you know, that are so
tangible.
Um, so just economicallyspeaking, it's a no-brainer that
you have these elements thattake very little comparatively
to produce something that canadd value for decades
(19:03):
conservatively.
That's kind of one angle of, youknow, looking at it.
It makes me think also about howthis thing can uh expand.
In watching like vloggers andyou know artists and so on.
I was fascinated a few years agoduring during the pandemic when
we all were stuck to ourscreens.
(19:24):
You know, I was watching aJamaican vlogger, and I was
watching him kind of cultivatehis audience over time, and I
see how he'd bring on differentpeople and kind of give them a
platform.
And then over time, I saw him,you know, bring some people on,
then those people could grow.
Some of them surpassed him invalue, right?
(19:45):
Didn't stop them from doing worktogether.
And then that pattern keptrepeating to kind of bring it
home today.
I watch Asafa's content online,right?
And I'm part of the car guy, soI like the car stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (20:00):
I'm a meet the Mitchell's girl, admittedly.
There you go.
SPEAKER_03 (20:03):
Right.
I went to school again so I canget it.
Yeah.
Those people on the back end,they are meeting, they're
sharing equipment, they'resharing space, right?
Um, and they use it to createmore things.
So there's a there's a Ghanaianvlogger I love to watch, who is
(20:24):
always featuring the Africancontinent and business
opportunities and all thepositive stuff.
And that Jamaican vlog I waswatching years ago, remember
when that young man went toGhana, this much more popular
Ghanaian YouTuber took himaround.
Guy stayed in his house.
SPEAKER_02 (20:40):
I've seen that.
SPEAKER_03 (20:42):
Yeah, there you go.
For a solid month, creatingvideos at the same time.
And so these guys are monetizingoff YouTube, each using the same
thing.
That's efficiency, right?
And then now I see Asafa, youknow, get pulled into this
little group of vloggers, right?
(21:04):
Which then produces more moneyfor everybody involved.
Come to this uh HurricaneMelissa thing, I see this
vlogger come in, he gets inAsafa's car, they go deliver
some stuff down a Cent.
Right?
You can't put a money, you can'tput a value on that part.
The guy was here, he was inJamaica for about 48 hours, and
(21:26):
that's what he did with histime, right?
And that's just like a smallexample.
Um, so if we center ourcreatives, we are centering a
big chunk of our economicengine.
We're centering uh an essentialpiece of who we are and ensuring
that we respect it and pay itforward.
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
I think to that point, there are a lot of people
who are talking about our CCIs,right?
It's not like we're just havingthis conversation in a bubble.
Most of us have certainministries of culture.
In whatever you know we callthem in different forms.
Um, there are scholars talkingabout this, of course.
You know, I think of scholarslike Keith Nurse, Susan Burke,
(22:09):
Deborah Hinkling Gordon.
Um, I can keep going.
Um but also, as you're saying,right, creatives who may not
necessarily be using the thethis terminology in terms of
CCIs, right?
But they are steep in it, andthis is the work that they're
doing, and trying to figure outhow to make livelihoods,
(22:31):
generate incomes, and generate,you know, generational wealth
also in that.
But I think as you were alsosort of pointing us to, there
are definitely some issues inhow this has been substantiated,
or maybe a lack of support mightbe a better way of framing that.
Um, and that's not to say thingsare aren't evolving.
(22:53):
I believe just last year um inJamaica, the ministry, our
ministry of culture changed to,I believe it's like there's like
a new form of health insurancespecifically for creatives who
are registered within our CCIframework, right?
Which, you know, to me soundedlike an amazing idea because you
can think of if you're anindependent, right, if you're an
(23:16):
independent entrepreneur, um,not having that safeguard,
anything that happens to you,your family, whatever is
straight out-of-pocket costs,right?
And so to me, that I I just sortof wanted to gauge from you what
are some of the structuralchanges, um, be that policy,
funding, you know, IP, as wewere talking about, intellectual
(23:37):
property, educationalinvestments, et cetera, that you
really feel like we would needto make to certainly affect
greater change and really allowfor these creative
collaborations to truly flourishas you were talking about.
SPEAKER_03 (23:52):
I think there's some key changes.
If I start with what I think wein the Caribbean and even in
African countries can doourselves without external
players, there's a mindsetpiece, which is the biggest,
there's a big policy piece, andthen there's some operational
stuff.
Um, the mindset one is to switchto understanding that we are
(24:13):
investing in ourselves.
And if these things areinvestments, it means you're
putting in today to get moretomorrow from the thing.
You're not looking to extractthe value, to deplete it, right?
You're looking to build it.
Um what this would mean inpractice is that take
(24:35):
intellectual property, forexample, one of the big barriers
for um Jamaica, if, you know, interms of like, you know, the
indicators, the GIs, um, andlike securing different brands
or colours, blah, blah, blah.
It's simply that there's justtoo few lawyers in that, you
know, um, intellectual propertyoffice, right?
(24:55):
And part of that reason is okay,you can't afford to hire more.
And uh to me, that's silly.
Those people, if you hire moreof them, we will gain so much
money from hiring them that itwill pay for them very quickly
and create a revenue stream intothe country.
(25:16):
How do we know this?
Ask Puma.
Long before you know the recentthings with you know them doing
the stuff.
I remember 20 odd years agoseeing Puma use our colours in
big, huge billboards.
SPEAKER_02 (25:29):
I do too, but there you go.
SPEAKER_03 (25:31):
With some grandmas in them church clothes clock up.
Yes.
Right?
Ask the Marley family when theycarry whoever to court, it'll
pay for itself easily.
It's what?
Like if you invest in, put theresources out front, you'll
reap.
Um two is in terms of policy, wehave to create literally new
(25:56):
policy and new modalities to dobusiness, especially across um
the diaspora.
Um, I remember writing a blogabout uh something I termed, I
didn't want to call itPan-African because I know
especially people in theCaribbean don't like that term
really.
So I call it, you know,trans-African uh partnerships
and trans-African businesses.
SPEAKER_02 (26:17):
I would ask you to say more, but I don't want it to
cut off itself.
SPEAKER_03 (26:21):
Oh yeah, oh, cause that would get yes.
I have so many things to say onthat.
Um, you know, and that's justlike a bit of myopia on our
part.
But we need structures thatenable us to connect and do
business and do life together.
That's your your visa regimes,that is changing how we think
about language.
(26:42):
Um, so I admire Haitians becausethey teach their language, and
it doesn't stop them fromlearning French.
My roommate in college, Kenyan,you know, we both did A levels,
but what?
He comes, he did his A levels,but he spoke three, maybe four
(27:02):
languages coming into college.
Right?
Me, I was stuck with this, youknow, in my head about speak
proper English as all that wasin my brain at the time.
Huge disadvantage.
So with our increasing facility,we can open up a lot just by
doing that.
So in the region, for example,we should all be learning some
(27:25):
African lingua franca.
It doesn't have to be uh aSwahili at all.
It can be many other things, youknow, your household, whatever.
It can be a tree language sinceso many of us, definitely in
Jamaica and in like EasternCaribbean, so many of us do have
you know um hereditary fromGhana and surrounding areas.
(27:46):
But we should all be learningSpanish.
And I didn't like Spanish inschool, hated it, but it's
common sense.
Right, and so by changing thosethings at the policy level, we'd
open ourselves up.
But in terms of the types ofbusinesses, it means that we
need to have modes of business.
Like literally, when you go tothe company's office to register
(28:07):
a business, you need differenttypes that would say, okay, you
are doing this partnership withum somebody in Haiti for this
purpose, you're doing anotherkind of thing, you're doing a
licensing agreement, and there'sa form of business that allows
it and brings down the barriersto trade because we should
(28:28):
literally be marketing andbranding akey that is that is
produced in Ghana, right?
And ship all that come here sowe don't have to you and I don't
have to spend$17 a tin.
We could be spending nine.
It's that.
So those modalities are thethings that internally we can do
(28:52):
if we think differently aboutthese things.
SPEAKER_02 (28:56):
I'm going to push back on that point because I do,
if you'll entertain me a littlebit.
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
Um well I I sort of do want you to to name what
you've seen as the issues withpeople's understanding of or you
know, acceptance ofPan-Africanism.
Because, and I say that becauseI think in a lot of ways, what
we're talking about builds on orpotentially could build on um
(29:22):
older Pan-African and diasporicconnections and the ways that
we've been able to buildtogether, especially as we move
across, you know, nations andand extend our diaspora out, the
way that we've been able to notonly live and survive, but
thrive and build certaincommunities, whether that's in
(29:44):
England, in Toronto, it youknow, it goes on and on.
And that's just me from anAnglophone speaking Caribbean
perspective, naming thoseplaces.
And so, one, what what do yousee as that issue with with the
framing of Panafhrinism?
But more directly to ourconversation, how do us sort of
(30:07):
reorienting our understandingsof the potential for our um
cultural and creativeindustries, you know, create new
models for us to, you know,trade and build economic
cooperation and also build onthese older frameworks that we
might not even be intentionallythinking about because they're
(30:29):
so innate to us.
Uh not too long ago, and this isjust to give another like
smaller example, not too longago I had a conversation talking
about Padna.
Like the way that Padna has sentpeople to school, has built
hoses, right, has you know sentpeople to med school, etc.
Like is a is a very importantpart of our culture and still
(30:49):
is.
And so if we are sort ofunderstanding the impact of um
where we've come from and youknow turning it on its head a
little bit, obviously, becausenew technologies, etc.
But what are what are some ofthe potentials that we have um
to create change and greatereconomic prosperity for us in
(31:11):
unity together?
SPEAKER_03 (31:12):
Yeah, those are all exciting things to meet because
as you said, there are so manythings in our culture, in our
history, that we can bringforward or that we can magnify
so that we can all thrive.
But we have first have to valueself.
And so we have to literally, uhas some people, it's like
decolonize our tongues.
(31:32):
We need to get this stuff out ofour heads.
Um, and so a lot of thedisinformation around, say, one
of my favorite people,disinformation around Marcus
Cari, for example, get out ofthe head because then you start
to see some common sense things.
So if you take his most malignedidea with the ships, right, and
(31:54):
see why Kwame Nkrumah wantedthat thing in the middle of his
national flag, it is clearlybecause if you look around for
centuries up to this very day,everybody has ships making a ton
of money moving things.
So obviously, shipping is a goodidea, right?
And then if you have peoplebeing able to crowdfund a
(32:18):
shipping company, this also is avery good idea because we all
aspire to you know put money inthe stock market and get rich
tomorrow.
Um, it's also a good idearecognizing all the different
places we are, and okay, you youstop, stop, and you drop off,
and you pick up.
This is elemental trade.
So the concept seems to be quitecommon sense.
(32:42):
The execution, much to bedesired.
But we've been sort of grown upto you know goof out those
things.
You know, I was a little dartman thinking silly, right?
And so that's the stuff killingus.
Um, because we've been doingthese things.
I was listening to uh TrevorFonnow uh interview me and
(33:03):
Motley recently, you know, TimeSabados, and they were talking
about the same partner, right?
And I made me think aboutcompanies like Susu, which have
built a nice, you know, digitalenterprise out of it.
And so that's the point.
All those things in our heritagewe can bring forward and remix
and make into powerful uhthings.
(33:26):
Um, I think literally to comeback to say Haiti, Haitians can
be the gateway for the Caribbeanand for West Africans,
French-speaking West Africans,into the US market, for example,
because they straddle not justthe language facility, but
unlike, say, Jamaicans or unlikeTrine's, they're more like uh
(33:49):
Brazilians in a sense becausethey embody so much more, you
know, recognizable Africanculture in their ways of knowing
and being still.
So they're far betterinterlocutors, right?
Um, so there's opportunitiesthere.
So I think if we understood ourpeople and understood that
(34:09):
period when Pan-Africanism wasgoing on, what they were trying
to do, we would far moreunderstand where the
opportunities are.
Because if we look at each otherwithout the middle person, then
you see that no, there's somestuff here.
Last example I'd pull on is I'vecome to really admire both of
the women Garvey uh married,right?
(34:30):
So we know Amy Jake wrote allthe books, ran the businesses,
kept everybody sane.
One one incredible, cuts off tothis woman, right?
But the other lady, all Ilearned in high school was that
okay, they were married for afew months and I'm separate and
she still worked in the thing.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
And they mix up, it mixed up, and that is why it was
a very recent episode, strictly.
Because it nothing the mix-up isthe story, and it's not the
mix-up that should be theimportant part of the story.
But anyways, me vex about it,but it's alright, career.
SPEAKER_03 (35:04):
Here is one lady who went around the world building
and selling Pan-Africanism andmaking all the connections.
She got to travel to thecontinent several times where he
never go.
Right?
She got to meet stars, you know,connecting everybody and moving
stuff forward in the background,right?
That tells us just literallyjust the role women play in our
(35:28):
societies culturally as well.
You know?
If you're talking about eitherto stop around the men and be
like, come get it, get yourselftogether, let's get this thing
done.
Or that person stitchingtogether and managing and moving
and pushing, right?
Using the brain power to push anidea, um, these are all old
(35:49):
things.
And so that to me is the powerof Pan-Africanism.
But we have so much spacebetween that and the
misinformation that we alldigest so often, you know, that
it becomes a thing.
SPEAKER_02 (36:03):
There definitely needs to be greater orientation
around our education.
And whether that be, you know,in the classroom, which of
course for a lot of people wouldthink is the most, you know,
direct change, but alsoeducation outside of the
classroom too.
Um, I think there's definitelysort of a mythos and
(36:24):
misunderstanding of a lot of umart history generally.
But I think what's been mostpuzzling to me, and this is just
off a tangent, is that the 20thcentury was wedia, you know.
It it would be one thing maybeif we were talking about the
1800, the 17 and 1800s under solong ago.
But like we're talking about mygrandparents' time that my you
(36:47):
know, but all that to say, inour conversation, we have given
so many examples of you know,ways that our pop culture is
definitely evidence of theimpact of our cultural and
creative industries.
I have one that I'm going toreference, but I definitely
wanted to ask you what are someof your favorite examples of the
(37:09):
wealth and possibilities of ourCCIs as they show up in
Caribbean popular culture.
SPEAKER_03 (37:14):
As a 90s uh person, right?
But in the 80s, coming of age inthe 90s, there's still
something, there's always uhthings that will stick with me,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
Nothing like 90s dancer, nothing like it.
SPEAKER_03 (37:28):
Um I like how it's you know spawned so much.
It created regular ton.
One rhythm.
Right?
They didn't even understand whatthe rhythm was about, and it
still spawned a whole othergenre of music.
That for me is is reallypowerful.
It's a really powerful example.
(37:49):
But also, if I think about othertypes of, you know, creative
endeavors like food.
Um, I remember when I learnedthat for the the UK, you know,
curry, you know, the mostpopular, you know, lunchtime
dish.
And I'm like, okay, it's thismashup between obviously
Indians, Pakistanis coming withthe curry, but a lot of it's
Jamaican curry too.
(38:10):
And so that ability, there'ssomething there with how well we
are able to literally, you know,like because we said
colonization reverse, right?
But we literally are.
We do that, we transmit ideaspowerfully, and we are really
good at it to the point where Iknow I forget who it was, but
(38:31):
like some Nigerian guy, I was atsome conference and he was like,
you know, grew up in England,he's like he's so influenced by
Jamaican culture and by carnivalculture, and you know, Nigerians
are pretty uh, you know,adamant, you know, and strong
about their thing, but stillit's like it's overwhelming,
(38:55):
right?
So there is a the extent towhich Caribbean people in any
space rub their culture off onthe people around them while
usually keeping their own is athing.
And so like that I marvel at.
And there's a lot there that wecan and should be doing with
that.
(39:15):
I think the other big thing I Ilook at for you know Caribbean
culture writ large and just howit goes out into the world is if
I think about just Jamaica as agroup, you know, I have not met
anyone.
And like, you know, we've beenin US for a decade, and even for
(39:37):
like my good friends who travela lot more than I do, never met
somebody who never heard ofJamaica.
Hasn't happened.
They may not know exactly whereit is, but they know about it,
they know they like it, even ifthey don't know why they like
it.
But they're for it you must beable to build on that right in
(40:02):
so many ways.
And it's not just about themoney, but that sort of uh
cultural capital is is too realto ignore.
SPEAKER_02 (40:13):
I thought of very sort of similarly in the same
lines because I was there at theshow, um, was that December 2022
now when Burnaboy performed inon that national stadium.
Um and now to Born Burnaboy'scredit, he did not just come to
Jamaica, he went to variousother islands in the Caribbean.
So it was it was a verypan-Caribbean tour, right, to
(40:34):
bridge.
I mean, I'm not trying to getinto a favoritism argument, but
but all that to say, right?
The fact that, you know, thereare these moments, especially in
popular culture like that, thatdemonstrate, as you were saying,
the impact and influence, right,for him and PopCon to do a song
(40:54):
together that hits charts,right, globally and all of these
things really demonstrates thepower of not only who we are and
our abilities to build, but Iremember standing in the stadium
and you know, obviously I'm partof the show, I'm singing along,
etc.
But to some of the points thatyou were making on language
earlier, I know how half thepeople that there probably never
(41:19):
spoke a lick of whatever, right?
But everybody figure everybodyvery quickly figure out what
Igbo and Shio and all the thingsmeant, right?
And so there is a a way that,you know, when we work together
um and sort of building in thisframework of Pan-Africanism, as
you were saying, allows us tosolidify ourselves from like a
(41:43):
psychological perspective, ofcourse, an economic perspective,
um, building cooperation, butthere are there are just so many
possibilities there, and Iwanted to for us to give space
to that.
I'm going to ask one morequestion because you know, I
feel like we could go on and on.
Um, but you know, lookingforward, what might a future of
(42:05):
Caribbean and Africandevelopment sort of in a model
sense look like?
Um, in your view, if we werereally to intentionally build
around this creative labor andour shared histories and you
know, well collective well-beingreally as the foundation of our
sustainable development?
SPEAKER_03 (42:24):
Well, I think there are a lot of pieces in place
that can pretend to be reallygood.
By that I mean so we are alreadythe sixth region for the African
Union, which is huge.
Right?
And that is, you know, the wholediaspora.
If we were to really use thosethings and especially look at
(42:49):
each other without thatmiddleman, then we can have a
future where we are part of thefastest growing, most dynamic
trading block, where we are umthe most diverse set of like uh
(43:10):
connected people because theAfrican continent has the
richest diversity in mostmeasures, you know, languages,
stuff under the ground, thepeople there, blah blah blah.
Never end.
If we were to make sure peoplecan move, and it's a point that
me and Matley was making theother day as well, if we ensure
(43:33):
people can move, the ideas willmove, the money will move, we
can have a society where we arefar more integrated digitally,
educationally, culturally,because for all of us who live
somewhere else outside of theCaribbean, we meet other people
(43:54):
of African descent, we know it'sour people.
Right?
It's in the look in the eye, youdrop our shoulder, all the
things, you kiss it eat,whatever you want to pick on,
how we like with food, it's ourpeople.
We know that.
And so we can build economiesthat understand that and sort of
(44:14):
thrive on that connectivity.
Um to put it into brass tacks, Ican imagine where we have
integrated educational systems,right?
Where you know a teacher in St.
Vincent doing a geography lessonum on, you know, uh, say the
Aldevi Gorge and the valleysaround it, you know, those kids,
(44:38):
it could be a digital classroom,or where the kids are like in a
WhatsApp group with kids inKenya and Uganda.
What the name of that somethingthere?
Da-da-da-da.
Right?
Like, show me a picture,da-da-da, your parents tomorrow
in dear, yes.
That'd be awesome.
Um, we can have a situationwhere we are all multilingual
(45:01):
because our economicarrangements and social
arrangements require that, whichmakes us stronger even outside.
Um, so there's a lot of room forthat in a kind of growing part
of the world that's superdynamic, where we can use the
technology to have a societythat is very people focused,
(45:24):
that is a fun place to be, um,and that is very stimulating and
creative, all very possible.
And better food.
SPEAKER_02 (45:37):
That's wonderfully said.
I I definitely agree.
I, you know, I started off withthis point of Caribbean futures
because I think sometimes therealities of where we are um are
so pressing, and I'm not takingfrom that, but the reality is
sometimes so pressing that it'shard to sort of imagine what
that looked like, what thatmight look like in practice,
(45:58):
right?
Or um we say sweeping thingslike decolonize our knowledge,
right?
But we don't we don't know whatthat might look like.
But to your point, right?
It could be a a WhatsApp groupwith kids in Kenya and kids in
St.
Vincent.
So there are so manypossibilities.
Um there, I thank you so muchfor joining me for this episode.
(46:19):
I think we've been able to coversuch a rich discussion of you
know what the future of you knowthe Caribbean might look like
and also the future of Caribbeanand African diasport connection
might look like as well.
Um, for our listeners who aretuning in, I hope you enjoyed
this episode.
We certainly do.
Um, if you want to follow alongmore with um Alastair, he is a
(46:43):
phenomenal writer, I will alsosay.
Um, and I will link his blog inour show notes if you want to
check out more.
So big up to him for that.
Um, but yes, overall, I thinkyou know, our cultural and
creative industries aredefinitely a place for us to
further tap into.
Um and so if you have thoughts,you know, if you enjoyed this
episode and want to want to hearmore about, you know, other
(47:06):
possibilities for our CCIs,definitely send me a message and
you know, we can bring furtherconversations about the CCIs to
the fore.
Till next time, everyone.
As always, look more.
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