May 13, 2026 • 55 mins
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Museums don’t just preserve history. They decide which stories become a nation’s memory and which stories get buried under polite silence. I’m joined by Kevin Farmer, Deputy Director of the Barbados Museum and Historical Society, to talk about Caribbean museums as real tools of nation building, cultural heritage, and post-independence identity. We start by tracing the roots of colonial museums and collections built to explain the Caribbean to Europe, often without listening to Indigenous knowledge or acknowledging the realities of slavery, resistance, and survival. From there, we move into the radical energy of the post-1960s period, when new scholars, artists, national galleries, and cultural movements helped reshape what counted as “our” history and “our” creativity across the region.
Then we get practical about what museums still need to fix: whose voices were pushed aside, how co-curation and community collaboration can change exhibitions, and why documenting migration and labor history is urgent before firsthand accounts disappear. We also dig into decolonizing museums through provenance work and repatriation, and how technology can help connect Caribbean stories across borders and the diaspora.
Kevin Farmer is currently Deputy Director of the Barbados Museum and Historical Society (BMHS). As Deputy Director of the Barbados Museum, he has the responsibility for museum exhibition programming and capital campaign fundraising. He holds a Master’s degree in History (Heritage Studies) from the University of the West Indies, Cave Hill, Barbados, and has lectured in Archaeology at the Department of History at the University of the West Indies, St. Augustine, Trinidad and taught at the UWI Cave Hill in their MA Heritage Studies program. His research interests include the creation of cultural identity in post-colonial states, the role of museums in national development, the management and curation of archaeological resources, and the role of heritage in national development.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, Dr.
Alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello, Walton people, andwelcome back to another episode
(00:22):
of Strictly Facts, a guide toCaribbean history and culture.
I'm your host, AlexandriaMiller, and we're kicking off
this episode with an amazingdiscussion about nation building
and national identity.
We've had several conversationsabout protests, campaigns for
Caribbean freedom, the processesby which many of our islands
(00:42):
went through to approachindependence, like the West
Indian Federation.
And you may have even thoughtabout important attributes of
nation building, like flags,national anthems, for instance.
But along that trajectory, haveyou considered how important
museums are in shaping newstories for our islands, once
disparaged by extraction, forcedlabor, and of course the
(01:05):
demeaning stories and socialhierarchies created by colonial
conquest?
Museums, of course, have manypurposes as vessels of
education, for archival accessand artifact holding, for public
consumption, of course, the listcould go on, but I think
particularly for the region,museums are also a way to combat
(01:28):
centuries of injustice as toldby our history.
So joining our conversationtoday to share the story of
Caribbean museums and nationbuilding, particularly post-the
mid-20th century, and you know,to take us forward into
contemporary times with the workthat is being done today is Mr.
Kevin Farmer, Deputy Director ofthe Barbados Museum and
(01:51):
Historical Society.
Mr.
Farmer, thank you so much forjoining me.
Why don't we begin with yousharing a bit about yourself for
our strictly facts audience, umyour personal connection to the
Caribbean, of course, and whatinspired your passions for
museum history and a little bitmore background in your work in
archaeology?
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
Okay, thank you, Alessandria.
It's great to be here.
I know we only have a short timeto discuss.
So I'm a historian andhistorical archaeologist by
training, born in Barbados, um,but I consider myself to be a
West Indian or Caribbean person.
Um, educated at the Universityof the West Indies at Cape Hill
(02:31):
and at Mona and back to CapeHill.
I've taught at St.
Augustine in Trinidad.
So I've traveled the three maincampuses of the UWI and um
worked in Trinidad and traveledall over the region.
And for me, museums are reallyour storytellers.
(02:52):
It's where our tangible andtangible memories are held, and
it's that space that allows usalmost a free reign into
discussing who we are (03:02):
the good, the bad, the ugly.
It's a space where marginalizedvoices get to be heard.
Um, whether there are poor whitecommunity of Barbados, um, East
Indian communities in Barbados,um, as well as diving into and
(03:26):
exploring the nuances ofenslavement.
For me, that's the importance ofmuseums.
Um, being the space wheremultiple stories can be told at
any time or told together.
And it's where the thecollective memory of a nation
resides and where the importanceof not only continuing the
(03:48):
memory but learning from thepast as well becomes really,
very important in in a way,expressing who we are as a
people and understanding why wedo certain things or why certain
things might have happened inthe past, so that hopefully we
don't repeat it.
Um, so in a way, we are thephysical manifestation of
(04:09):
Sankofa.
We look back in order that wecan chart our way forward.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
Indeed, to go back and fetch it, as they would say,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
Yes, to go back and fetch it.
And and I would say that myinterest in history started at a
very young age.
Um, from my my mom taking me tothe public library here at home,
and she reminded me that thefirst book I ever borrowed was a
history book, which is kind offunny.
I was about maybe five or six.
(04:39):
So I've always been fascinatedby the past, but about what it
can tell us about our future andour present.
And I guess the family history,now that I think about it, drove
me in that direction.
So on my father's side, hisfather was born in Panama of
Barbadian parents who went tobuild the canal.
(05:01):
And I just found that to beutterly fascinating.
And they sent their childrenback to be raised in Barbados.
Um, so I guess that earlyconnection, understanding
migration and how it affectsfamilies and the history behind
why you are where you are, um,kind of fascinated me as a young
(05:23):
child.
And that fascination just kindof kept hold uh during secondary
school and then choosing historyas a first degree.
Um archaeology came aboutbecause those were the courses
offered, and it made merecognize that a simple object
could have as many stories as abook, and and the multiple
(05:46):
stories that can be told about asimple object is what in fact
drew me to that discipline.
And of course, all of thatculminates in almost the open
experience that is a museum.
There's text, there are objects,there's sound, there's moving
image, and and there's the spacein which to tell these stories
(06:11):
and the time to really dive intothem and try to understand them,
and then to see how people getfascinated by learning these uh
new facts.
But first, one of the hardestthings to do in a museum is
write text.
250 words to try to get over allof this in-depth information.
(06:35):
It really taught you how to besuccinct, um, and in a way, how
to in a way tease the audienceto learn more.
In my early career, I found thatreally, really fascinating.
And I still do.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
Thank you so much for sharing just a bit about who
you are and all that isinvolved, I think, really in
museum building that you knowthose on maybe our side, my
side, um, might not even thinkof.
So really appreciate you sharinga bit about that.
I definitely want to kick offour discussion today with taking
(07:12):
us a little bit even beforegetting to, you know, these
post-independence createdmuseums, um, and really chart
what was some of the you knowimpetus for colonially
established museums, if there'sa way of putting it, um, what
purpose they served at the timebefore, you know, many of our
(07:32):
islands became independent andthe goals of those curators, um,
many of those who were, youknow, obviously coming from UK,
from France, Netherlands, thelist could go on, right?
Um, just to really establish areference point for what happens
um later on as we'll continue onin our conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (07:55):
No problem.
So I'll I'll start that firstwith a shameless plug.
Uh so a couple of years ago, Iwas quite privileged.
Um my director at the museum,Alessandra Cummings, is very
well known in the museum world,not only in the region, but
outside of it.
Um we got together with anothercolleague, um, Rosalind Russell
from Australia, and came up withthe idea for a Caribbean museums
(08:20):
book.
Because so often when you'relooking for research on
Caribbean museums, it's notwritten by people in the
Caribbean.
Or we might be asked to write asmall um article in a large
anthology uh made up of personsfrom around the world in
museology, but it was never onethat was specifically focused on
(08:40):
the Caribbean.
Um so we brainstormed andrecognized that we need to tell
the full story of thedevelopment of museums in this
region.
And the title for me was mostapp, From Plantation to Nation,
because it's coming out of thatenlightenment era of trying to
order the world around it.
Um, that we get intocategorization by by Linnaeus,
(09:04):
who people remember for hisclassification of people into
racial hierarchies.
But before that, he was reallythe one who came up with how do
we categorize the world that wesee?
What's the taxonomy in thenomenclature?
And he did all of that work.
And so from very early on, wecan almost start to say that as
(09:27):
persons encountered this newworld, they began to collect and
try to, in their limited way,bring some order to it.
Um, of course, telling theirparticular story.
So very much very early on,those colonial collections were
really about telling the storyof the space that they found
(09:49):
through their particular lens,not necessarily listening or
even fully understanding um whatthe indigenous knowledge was.
So I guess the classic examplefor me would be the core
collection that started theBritish Museum has its origins
in the Caribbean.
(10:10):
So Sahan Sloan collection, whichwas purchased by the British
Parliament, that went on to bethe British Museum's founding
collection, a lot of thatcollection was based on what he
um found, kept, took up,borrowed, stole, maybe in some
(10:31):
instances, um, of the space thathe'd now come into as a young
physician, whether in Jamaica orBarbados, or his travels,
because he was in the in theretinue of the governor at the
time.
And that formed hisunderstanding of this new world
that he was finding.
And it's about understandingthat new world, almost in
(10:56):
juxtaposition to the world youalready knew, is really the
nucleus of what early museums orearly cabinets of curiosities
would have been in this region.
Uh, so we go back to thedevelopment of the Institute of
Jamaica and what was called theVictorian Institute in the 19th
(11:17):
century.
Um, those are really the firstuh early museums set up as
museums in the English-speakingCaribbean at the time.
But the outlook was colonial inthat how do we better understand
the space that we're in relativeto where we've come from?
(11:39):
So the collections and thestories always covered the
indigenous or are the enslavedor the indentured.
It was never our story.
Um, so even the setup of themuseum where I work at the
Barbados Museum, created in1933, is very much as a colonial
(12:02):
museum.
It's really how the elite sawthemselves and saw the history
of the island around them injuxtaposition to the UK, to the
mother country.
And one great example of this,we when you look through some of
the early documents at themuseum, um they outlined, oh, we
(12:26):
want to look at archaeology andunderstand the native past, we
want to understand architectureand how we, I mean, we meaning
Europeans got here and theability to trace that.
But one of the early foundingmembers said, but we don't want
to talk about enslavement.
We we don't want to remind umthe local population of where
(12:51):
they came from, because thatmight incite them to rebellion.
And it's only when you dive intothe history and you recognize
that a lot of our history asenslaved people is very much
foundationally about ourresistance to that enslavement.
You know, understand why thatwas said.
Because how do you want tocontrol a people and then still
(13:13):
acknowledge the fact that, well,they fought against this control
from the get-go.
But in the post-colonial wherewe are now, it's important to
tell those stories because weneed to understand that we are
the descendants of persons whoresisted.
We are descendants of those whosurvive.
(13:33):
We are not victims, and that'san extremely important narrative
to tell coming out of theindependence movement of the
60s, recognizing that there'sstill some English-speaking
islands that are still notindependent.
They're still colonies of theUnited Kingdom, even though
(13:54):
they'll try to find some reallyfancy, wonderful word to dress
it up, um, like the French do insaying Department de Autonomia.
Yeah, still a colony.
You still don't have controlover your own internal or
foreign policy.
You don't.
So museums become the spacesthat get to tell those stories,
(14:15):
but we got to recognize where wecame from.
We came in the most part from aninstitution that sought to say,
um, well, yes, you're a colony,and this is how you should
behave, um, relative to themother country, as opposed to
really telling the truth aboutwho we are and how we got here
(14:38):
and the nuances that developed.
Um, and I think that's ourresponsibility today is to not
only speak truth to power, butto uncover that truth wherever
it is and to give voice to it.
And over the last decade at themuseum, um, we've gotten into
(15:02):
looking at how we can havegreater collaboration with the
community in terms of how do webring these exhibits or public
programming together.
So, anywhere from what initiallyI discussed in Plantation Nation
to Old Talk, or what a colleagueof mine, Natalie McGuire Batson,
(15:23):
has just developed in terms ofcommunity engagement.
I've now forgot what her termis.
I'll come back to me duringduring the course of this
discussion.
Um but she has uh she'sformulated uh a really good
foundation of what that couldbe, and allowing our museums to
speak to multivocality as well,because we live in a region
(15:47):
where we're all mixed.
Um, persons are white, personsare black, persons are
in-between, and Indian andChinese, and African and
Javanese, depending on where yougo, and indigenous, depending on
where you go in the region.
So that our museums then need tobe reflective of those histories
and those stories.
(16:08):
And I think that's criticallyimportant, especially when we
look at the world that we're in,that people are divided along
not only ethnic but religiouslines.
How do we combat that in thespace in which we live?
How do we give voice to it?
I think that's criticallyimportant.
And how do we tell some of thoseuntold stories?
(16:30):
Um, so that's part of theongoing research.
And recognizing that the curatoris not as he or she was seen 50
years ago as the person who'scontrolling the door at the
entrance.
You know, you're not thegatekeeper, you're simply the
(16:50):
facilitator and the guardian toensure that these stories are
passed on from generation togeneration.
And I think that's how Caribbeanmuseums and galleries are
evolving.
SPEAKER_00 (17:05):
I think that was beautifully said and even takes
me to my next question, right?
We have obviously, as youpointed, a set of museums that
were founded prior to ournationalist movements and how
they've evolved.
But really, in your scope, howhave you seen those that you
know came up post-independencehighlight reshaping our national
(17:28):
identity?
I know places like NationalGallery of Jamaica was the first
art gallery, National ArtGallery of the Anglophone
Caribbean being founded in Ithink 1974.
Um, but really, what was thescope of those museums coming to
be and what ideas did they havein mind, especially as the
(17:48):
nations are forming, um,especially as, you know, their
new ways of us talking?
There is also at the time, youknow, scholars really having
either been educated abroad in,you know, the quote unquote
former mother country, dependingon, you know, the years here,
but coming back and reallywanting to be like, okay, this
is the history of Jamaica orBarbados as told through our
(18:11):
eyes.
How did those two dynamicsreally work together to shape
the future of museumspost-colonially?
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
Um, when we take a look at those post-independent
um museums, galleries, heritagesites in the post-independence
period, and it's a radicalrethink of who we are.
And part of it is really aboutthose new academics who are I
(18:41):
were being trained at UniversityCollege of the West Indies,
which is established in 48,first at Mona, and how they in
turn respond to the creation ofthis young nation.
We've moved through Federation,purposes have lamented oh, there
it didn't work out in 62.
But there's this agitation.
(19:01):
We need to be independent.
Look at what's happened inIndia, look at what's happening
in Africa.
Um, some of these potentialleaders went to school with
those persons who were leadingthose nationalist movements in
those um spaces, whether it'sAfrica or the subcontinent.
And the history was changing.
(19:24):
So the social history that isbeing taught and being
researched in the late 60s and70s, um that privileges us um
built on on the on Williams'thesis of capitalism and
slavery, Walter Rodney's howyou're underdeveloped Africa,
(19:47):
um, Elsa Kavaya, um WoodwillMarshall, Sidney Mint.
All of that is is building up tothe point where who are we?
What are we?
What have we done?
How do we showcase this?
How do we channel all of thisenergy into this into this
(20:10):
independent movement?
So you've got the development ofthe National Art Gallery in in
Jamaica, but I will sayalongside that for Jamaica that
I find most interesting is thedevelopment of what was a craft
museum in in Spanish Tongue atthe same time, which really to
(20:32):
me said we're privileging ourability to innovate at uh at a
local level.
And so craft is not just craft,craft is about how we have found
solutions to local problems in agiven space.
(20:53):
And so the two of them together,so art at one end, which is seen
up there, and and craft, whichis seen down there, and they
both have their independentspaces to tell the story of
Jamaica.
Um, and of course, thedevelopment of the Adamani
school, um, that also saidacademics are great, but there
(21:16):
must be equal footing for theartists.
Whether the person is a visualartist or dancer or singer or
poet or playwright, they must beequal footing.
And the 70s then becomes pivotalfor a whole number of reasons.
The black power movement, thethe acknowledgement, even though
we haven't fully acknowledgedit, how black Mycenaean students
(21:41):
and Black Mycenaeanintellectuals are in fact
foundational to the civil rightsmovement in the states in the
60s and 70s.
Um we don't pay enough attentionto that.
And all of them coming togetherin the region to begin.
To have the question about whowe are and recognize that 74
(22:04):
period, we're getting into thefirst CARI Festa, which is about
us celebrating us.
So here we are, these regionalgovernments coming together.
And for the audience who don'tremember CARIFESTA or Karifta
and may only see Karifta as anathletics competition, uh,
(22:25):
Karifta is really the precursorto CARICOM, or should we say it
is the stepchild of federation,um, where there's a recognition
that there is some good to behad by bringing us together in a
regional market systemeconomically.
(22:46):
But then person said, well,economics is one thing, but what
about the social and cultural?
And that breeds car fasta.
And and for that almost decade,there's a series of policy
workshops and meetings andgatherings about how do we
advance our respective cultures.
(23:08):
So Kamal Braffit writes uh whatis almost the pillar of what our
cultural policy is in the 70s.
The same thing happens inJamaica and it happens in
Trinidad, and these are stillour guiding documents to today,
coming out of that radicalphase.
We're still in that radicalphase because we we continue to
(23:32):
evolve and refine those policydocuments and bring them to
life.
Um, in some cases, um whathappens on the street overtakes
the policy.
We just have to look at the thegrowth and development of ska
and mento into reggae and andthe independent producers and
(23:55):
and singers.
There's there's an earlyBarbadian singer, but he's one
of the early reggae singers inJamaica.
In fact, Bob Marley and theWailers were his backup at one
point.
And and there's a there'sthere's a wonderful story where
Bob mentions him.
The name will come back to me atsome time.
Um and we need to tell thestories because even though we
(24:21):
see music as national, music atthat time was very Caribbean.
Musicians moved wherever therewas work, didn't stay static.
Um, and and that needs also tobe acknowledged and recognized.
But all of this is coalescing,and part of the manifestation of
(24:43):
that is actually the developmentof some of those early
institutions.
So Jackie Opal was the was thesinger in Barbados who made it
big in Jamaica, um, singing skaand reggae, and then moved back
to Barbados to invent a newmusic called Spooch, but he died
(25:03):
quite young.
But but pivotal in thedevelopment of reggae and
bringing to light um Tosh andMarley and the Whalers.
So we also need to understandthe interconnectedness of our
stories as well.
But here you have for the firsttime, 74 as a precursor to
(25:24):
Carfasta, um, where you actuallyget to see your own art and not
just your own art utilizing theEuropean canon, but your own
intuitive artists presentingwhat they see of themselves to
you.
So you almost have thatreflective mirror.
(25:45):
Here's how we see ourselves.
Let's let's really have a talkabout this, and that goes on to
spawn a whole set of um nationalgalleries throughout the region,
or the creation of nationalcollections, sands, galleries.
And at the same time, you'llfind that most of the postcard
(26:08):
institutions, oddly enough, aregalleries.
They're not necessarily museums,they're they're all about the
visual.
That might have been adeliberate policy.
We we got to go back and reallytake a critical look at what
those policy documents um weresaying.
Um, but it's about acknowledgingthat we can create and that we
(26:30):
can innovate.
And I still think that we aresomewhat in that particular
sphere as well, where we arerecognizing and acknowledging
that we are creators and notjust consumers.
And and and the interestingthing for me to note is that
(26:52):
National Gallery Jamaica in 74happens after the first CARI
Festa, which is 1972 in Guyana.
So, you know, what is the whatis the impetus um from CARI
Festa that leads to thedevelopment of national
galleries um in the 1970s andearly 80s in the region.
(27:14):
Um, but it's about recognizing,for me, it's about recognizing
that we are creative andacknowledging that.
And then, of course, at the endof the day, the artist is always
the original critique of theirsociety, uh, whether in music,
dance, song, or or movingvisuals.
(27:35):
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
That brings me to a point you made earlier, um,
really thinking about thediversity of the region, right?
You know, in terms of artidentity and national makeup or
ethnic makeup, right, and racialmakeup.
We have people of Asian descent,people of African descent, et
(27:57):
cetera, et cetera.
Um, I've, you know, we've hadepisodes on Jewish identity in
the Caribbean and um all of thatto say our national movements
were really, in a sense, touphold our black populations,
right?
Ones that um were plagued bycenturies of enslavement and
wanting to reshape the memory ofwhat was, you know, determined
(28:21):
by the colonial bodies.
How successful do you thinkthese museums springing up post
the 60s, how successful werethey in doing that?
And then, you know, as anadd-on, what were maybe some of
the challenges or what hasevolved since then to also
uphold the legacies of, youknow, say indeed indentured
(28:42):
servitude or, you know, many ofthe other um ethnic bodies we
have?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Yeah.
Um, critically, we were theyweren't very good at telling the
story of everyone um simplybecause they were so focused on
dealing with the binary.
How do you deal with telling thestory of an island or country
(29:08):
that has come out of thiscolonial oppression?
And and the major colonialoppression was about enslavement
and and being a colony.
How do you position your people,the majority of whom are of
African descent for the mostpart, in building them up and
(29:29):
making them realize that theycould achieve everything?
So that early post-independentdevelopment of uh museums and
art galleries and heritageinstitutions was very much about
confronting that colonial pastand in some doing, pushing um
(29:52):
smaller groups, um marginalizedin terms of I'm dealing with
size, not necessarily economicclout, um, to the periphery.
And it's only in the last 20years, 30 years, because you've
got now remember, we're in 2024.
Wow, which is amazing for someof us.
(30:12):
So 24 years ago, it was 2000, 10years before that, we're we're
at 1990.
So in the last 34 years, becausewe have in a way successfully
planted what it is to be uh anindependent nation state, um,
that we can begin to say, okay,what are the other stories that
(30:34):
we've not been telling?
And in fact, when you look inthose spaces, the mere fact that
you've got museums or galleriesdedicated to um the Jewish past,
Asian, and Asian meaning SouthAsian as well, so indentured
andor China andor Java also saysum that that initial movement
(31:02):
failed them.
And we've got to acknowledgethat.
Um even even in terms of howthose national museums told the
story of women, in most casesthey didn't.
They told the stories of elitewomen for the most part, but not
of everyday women.
Um, so part of the redress, I'llsay, in the last 20 years is
(31:25):
about bringing the marginalvoices from the periphery to the
core and giving them the space.
And I think we're right now inthat particular period.
Um, so uh at the BarbadosMuseum, if you were to go to um
our website, we we speak to someof how we've engaged with those
(31:48):
communities.
We're in the middle, midst ofdoing an online digital
exhibition on East Indianmigration to Barbados, which
didn't happen during the periodof indentureship.
Um, in fact, it's a early 1910,1920 migration directly from
India to Barbados, personslooking for economic
(32:11):
opportunity, but not indentured.
Um, so it's it's different thanwhat happens in Jamaica, Guyana,
Trinidad, Suriname, forinstance.
But we recognize that there's aneed to tell that story.
Um, and just recently I did aprogram where I spoke about the
poor white community inBarbados, which we refer to as
(32:33):
um red legs.
Um I can't remember what theJamaican term is.
Um in the French Islands, it ispetit biket, small white.
Um, but we need to recognize andgive voice to those communities
because they're still here withus.
(32:54):
Uh, and to understand how theysee themselves in relation to
the nation state is is extremelyimportant.
And and then, of course, how dowe deal with women?
One, how do we deal with evermarginalized groups, um, whether
they are hearing or sightingpaired?
(33:14):
How do we allow our exhibitionsto be accessible to them?
So these are still some of thethings that we're we're
grappling with now.
But I think we've we've come along way, but there's so much
fervor that we need to go um togive voice.
Um, I remember a couple of yearsago going to National Museums
(33:36):
Jamaica, the Social HistoryMuseum, and they had a really
fantastic exhibition on um theearly development of SCA and
Mento, something that you mightnot have seen 30 years before.
Um, so there's a reason um tothen dive into sub-genres and
subcultures um to understand andbring them out to the fore and
(33:59):
allow those stories to be told.
Um, I think that is where weneed to go.
So now the intersection betweenfilm and how film and
documentaries can help museumsreach new audiences and tell
those stories becomes animportant tool in how we develop
(34:21):
our interaction and activity andprogramming and accessibility uh
becomes critically, criticallyimportant.
And the other aspect in thereis, and we're still trying to
figure this out, how best do weengage the community to find out
what they really want to see ata museum?
(34:44):
We've got to do that as well.
You can never make theassumption that we know best, we
do not.
So that's why co-curation is isso fundamental as a tool of
engagement where the communitiesbecome co-curators with you in
whatever you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
As you were talking, I also thought of Trinidad's um
Indian Caribbean museum sprangup during 2006.
So, you know, very much in linewith this.
SPEAKER_01 (35:13):
Very much in line.
Yeah, very much in line.
Um, and and then of course,there are those things that
happened in this century thatwe've not even delved into
properly.
There's no trade union museumper se.
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
Um, there isn't a museum of migration.
So we better understand whatmigration to Cuba, Panama,
Colombia, internal, well, when Isay internal, internal carbine
migration.
Um, Barbanians to Trinidad inthe 1890s and the early part of
(35:51):
the 20th century.
Uh, migrations to Jamaicafollowing United Food Company
around the turn of the century,how does that alter populations
as well?
So there's so much more to betold, and there's so many
different stories that we haveyet to explore, is that we've
got to start the work now.
Um, because unfortunately, we'vewe're missing out on almost the
(36:13):
firsthand accounts of the peoplewho were directly involved in
that.
Um, it almost makes me thinkthat as a region, we we need to
have a wider program similar towhat happened in the States
after the depression, where umwas it working, was it working
(36:34):
People's Association went intodifferent spaces and simply
recording the lived experienceof people, um, recognizing that
it was important enough torecord it.
Maybe they didn't quite knowwhat to do with it.
When the mere fact that youarchived that material meant
that 20, 30, 40 years later,someone can go back to it and
have an understanding of whatall of that meant and write
(36:56):
books, have documentaries,create exhibits.
We need to be doing that now.
Um, in in terms of labormovements, migration, um, the
progress of women, how do wedeal with marginalized groups?
We need to capture thatinformation now.
Also, it's going to be lost tous.
And I think that's that's one ofthe key things that museums can
(37:20):
do.
Um, recognizing, of course, thenit means that as one of the
institutions, we need we need tobe placed firmly within the
developmental agenda of ourgovernments, which for the most
part only remembers culture onceor twice a year, whether it's
carnival or some larger nationalevent, um, that they then
(37:42):
decide, oh dear, yes, we need acultural component.
Cultural component has alwaysbeen here.
Um, you just, you know, need topay a bit more attention to it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:53):
I couldn't have you on this episode without talking
about, you know, more recentconversations uh around museums.
I think this more so um hascontended with museums in the
quote unquote developed world,right?
So I I particularly think ofthat scene in Black Panther in
(38:14):
the first movie, um, you know,when the curator is like, oh,
this is from da-da-da-da-da, youknow.
Um, and then, you know,rightfully so, um, she gets
clapped backed on in a sense andis like, actually, this artifact
that, you know, you've held inyour museum for however long was
stolen, right?
(38:35):
And so I that's something that Inecessarily haven't thought
about in terms of um whatartifacts and things that we
hold, or you know, if there havebeen attempts to get artifacts
back from the UK, from France,um, and even just how things
have been, you know, moved orrepatriated back for our region.
SPEAKER_01 (38:58):
We're slowly in that beginning process of
repatriation, but there's a stepbefore that.
We we actually have to have theengagement where we understand,
well, what's in your collectionthat speaks about us?
In some instances, um, a lot ofthe museums um in in the former
(39:23):
metropoles don't know what theyhave.
Um I've been part of a grouprecently, or invited on to a
group recently, um, museums inScotland who are trying to
understand what's in theircollection in the Caribbean and
Africa.
Because in some instances, theircurators aren't trained in those
(39:45):
areas, so they don't know, orthey haven't really done the
deep dive into their catalogs tounderstand the provenance of
what they have, and thenbeginning to have conversations
with us in the region, not onlyabout what the object is, um,
but what does it say?
And then the the largerconversation about okay, great,
(40:07):
you have it, we don't.
How do we look at repatriation?
What does that look like?
Um, and it might be an easierdiscussion in Scotland who have
begun to repatriate over thelast almost two decades
material, as opposed to inEngland, where they're so
resistant.
Because, of course, if theystarted to go down one line, we
(40:29):
all know that the Greeks willremind them the elgin marbles
don't belong to you.
There's spoils of war, there'sthere's a need for some you know
reversal and reciprocity.
Yes.
Um, but we're getting there.
So I know later on this yearthere's going to be a
repatriation of a naturalhistory object from Scotland to
(40:51):
Jamaica, which is going to beamazing.
So I look forward to when theythey release that information.
I just mentioned it here um topique interest and to tease.
Um, but Shani Roper at UWI Muna,who's a curator there, is the
person to talk to about that.
But repatriation is beginning.
(41:13):
Those conversations arehappening, perhaps not as fast
as we would like.
Um, but but they're happening.
And even in the areas ofarchaeology, we begin to have
discussions about well, whatdoes archaeology look like when
we've got outside researcherscoming in?
Um, there's need to talk about adecolonization around that as
(41:36):
well, because all of ourinstitutions, for the most part,
and our disciplines, um,especially archaeology, are
created out of colonial context.
And in fact, created because ofcolonization.
Um, how do how do they at thefoundational level begin to
redress how they were createdfor the future?
(41:58):
How do they address theimbalances and what does
decolonization look like?
Um, not only global north toglobal south, uh, but global
south to global south.
And there are going to be somedifficult discussions, but
necessary discussions, which wehave to have if we want to be
(42:20):
honest in the telling of thatstory.
Um yeah, and I think that'swhere we're going.
We we also recognize thatthere's been pushback, whether
it's being termed as beinganti-woke, whatever that is.
Um but for me, it's about thetelling of the truth.
It's about no longer hidinghistorical facts, but being open
(42:47):
and transparent about them andseeing how they can lead to
healing on the one side, closingof trauma at the other, but it's
necessary.
SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
That brings me to, you know, one of my favorite
questions of all, as ourlisteners will know, I ask this
question every episode.
Um, I think, and as you rightlypointed to, in terms of our
music, um, our festivals,carnival, et cetera, there is a
way that our popular cultureholds our history that, you
(43:21):
know, people might not alwaysput the two and two together.
And so my aim through thisquestion is always to weed that
out a little bit and, you know,maybe get our listeners to read
a novel or, you know, listen toa song that references a
particular moment in ourhistory.
So is there something like thatfor you that is really
(43:42):
reflective of museums andnational identity coming up
during this period that ishighlighted in popular culture?
SPEAKER_01 (43:51):
Oh wow.
Uh yes.
And what I'm going to bring tomind will reference both.
Jamaica, but it has resonance.
So we have a small Africangallery here at the museum that
we created about a decade ago.
It was a temporary exhibitionthat stood up for 17 years
(44:12):
because people were sointerested.
And then around 2000, we said,okay, we need to make this a
permanent gallery.
And so we expanded the galleryfrom 200 square feet to 800
square feet and sought to tellin very broad breath strokes
about the history of thecontinent going back from the
(44:33):
development of early hominidsinto Homo sapiens all the way up
to what Africa looks today.
And there is one exhibition whenwe take people through, we
remind them of Bob Marley's songWar.
(44:56):
Because it's an Ethiopianscroll.
So and we we use that to showhow global events continue to
(45:19):
shape us and how we in turncontinue to shape the world
around us.
And to remind people that thoughwe might see ourselves as small,
our impact on the world is somuch greater than that.
And this is for me a veryimportant message that anyone
(45:42):
coming through a museum in theregion should leave knowing our
impact on the wider world.
(46:03):
I think it's Zimbabwe.
And we we have Marley SongZimbabwe and reminding people of
the invitation at the time, youknow, so to recognize
connections but also recognizeresonance.
Um for me.
The other more important objectI'll point to in our museum is
(46:25):
we have a small agate beadexcavated from the enslaved
barrel ground at Newton, whichis a plantation here.
Now, this agate bead, I remindpeople, is globalization.
It's an agate bead that comesfrom India, made its way across
the Atlantic, was buried in thecoffin of an enslaved man who
(46:49):
was brought to an island in theMid-Atlantic to grow an Asian
grass called sugar cane forprocess and export to Europe.
And this is the 18th century.
So globalization starts here.
Understand why we are where weare and the outsize role that we
(47:11):
have played in the world andwill continue to play, um, to
ground us as to who we are andto recognize that our story
doesn't begin and end withenslavement, but is a much
larger story as well, as apeople.
SPEAKER_00 (47:27):
I will definitely add those to our strictly fact
syllabus, as well as yourco-edited book From Plantation
to Nation, which I think walksus through beautifully some of,
you know, not only the historyof those founding museums during
our colonial period, but alsothe history of museums like the
National Gallery in Jamaica,like the Junkanoo Museum in
(47:51):
Bahamas, that are really, youknow, doing the work that we've
been talking about today,showcasing the histories of not
just, you know, those who werecolonized, but also those
smaller subset groups who have,you know, didn't necessarily get
the early recognition in ourimmediate post-colonial period.
So definitely wanted tohighlight that as well.
(48:13):
And I'll add it to our SterlyFact Syllabus and in the show
notes.
Um, and so for my final questionfor our conversation today,
we've talked about some of theways that museums have been
evolving, some of the work thatneeds to be done.
We are now in a period whereseveral islands have even, you
know, moved to republic status,or as you very well know, of
(48:37):
course, right?
Um, or, you know, have beentalking about moving to republic
status as well.
How do you think museums willreflect the last 50-ish, you
know, depending on which island,of course, but the last few
decades of us being independentfor the future and, you know,
just what ways you see themeither shaping the future, um,
(48:59):
using things like technology toconnect across even the region
and the diaspora?
SPEAKER_01 (49:05):
Um let me take it first, starting with the
movement towards Republicanstatus.
Uh, for me, the movement towardsRepublican status is the
continuation of a continuum.
Um, from the time we werebrought, forcibly brought here,
we resisted.
The various ways in which wehave resisted and manifested
(49:27):
that resistance lies both inphysical rebellion, moves
through to the establishment oftrade unions, the want to have
workers' and people's rights tothe independence movement in the
1960s, um, through torepublicanism.
(49:48):
So for me, it's a continuum,it's the last four or five
hundred years continuum towardsself-government and self-rule.
But in that, recognizing thatwe're not the only people in
this space, but how do we bringalong our indigenous communities
in the spaces in which they'restill found?
(50:08):
How do we bring along ourmarginalized communities in the
spaces where they are?
And utilizing technology notonly to capture memory, but
utilizing technology to createcontent that allows us to tell
the interconnectedness of thosestories across our entire
(50:31):
region.
Um, our carbine sea is not ablock.
Our carbine sea is conduit toeach other.
And the various stories thatwe've told over time, the fact
that a national hero of Barbadosis born in Trinidad, with
Barbadian parents, you know, thefact that one of the major um
(50:56):
labor leaders in Trinidad comesfrom a smaller island called
Grenada, we need to tell theinterconnectedness of those
stories.
So technology allows us tocapture, but also then allows us
to build up content.
Um, I look forward to the daywhere we ourselves together
(51:17):
create uh a documentary calledthe Caribbean and not have to
watch one on the BBC that reallydoesn't reflect us.
Like, likewise, with podcastslike yours, we we go to that
online portal and download thosemultiple stories about us.
I think that's where technologyis pushing us, and I think
(51:39):
that's where we need where weneed to go.
Um so podcasts like yours andothers being the Coursera or or
the West Indiana of who we arebecomes necessary going forward.
And it's in the small and and inthe big things.
(52:02):
Um whether it's about thecomplexities of the rums that we
we create and drink, or it'sabout how we take that basic
product called cornmeal and turnit into so many different
things, whether it's um dukunnaor peme or conki or kinke, turn
(52:29):
cornmeal or cuckoo or polento,you know, it's it's about
creating that and having accessto it and understanding the
connectedness between them, Ithink is where we're going.
And technology will will andshould allow us to do that.
It should make our storiesaccessible and our shared paths
(52:53):
accessible as well.
And I think that's where museumsneed to go.
We need to see ourselves ascontent creators across multiple
platforms, utilizing all media.
That is that is what we are.
In fact, that that makes usstand out in terms of the
(53:13):
heritage sphere in the region.
We are content creators uhbecause we house both
two-dimensional andthree-dimensional, tangible and
intangible objects of our pastthat can speak to a future.
Um, and I think that's where ourstrength lies.
And it's how we need to build onand build out the telling of our
(53:35):
story.
SPEAKER_00 (53:36):
I have no final words after that.
I think that was effectivelysaid.
Um, thank you for the work thatyou're doing for all of the
museum curators, you know,really helping to shape not only
the education and awareness thatwe have for the region, um, the
movements that we've made acrossthe world, really and our impact
(53:56):
on the world.
Um, and really just, you know,changing the landscape of how we
define ourselves away from, youknow, what was colonially
imposed.
So thank you so much, Mr.
Farmer, of course, for joiningme for this episode to our
Strictly Facts family.
I hope you enjoyed learning abit about museums, the history
of them, and how they're movingforward.
(54:18):
And I will, of course, add allof the, you know, many things we
talked about, whether it's theresources, the books, the songs,
um, and links, of course, to theBarbados Museum and Historical
Society, to our um syllabus andshow notes for you all to check
out yourselves.
So again, thank you so much forlistening.
Thank you, Mr.
Farmer and Lickle Moore,everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (54:40):
Yeah, thank you very much.
I enjoyed it.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, Dr.
Alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello, Walton people, andwelcome back to another episode
(00:22):
of Strictly Facts, a guide toCaribbean history and culture.
I'm your host, AlexandriaMiller, and we're kicking off
this episode with an amazingdiscussion about nation building
and national identity.
We've had several conversationsabout protests, campaigns for
Caribbean freedom, the processesby which many of our islands
(00:42):
went through to approachindependence, like the West
Indian Federation.
And you may have even thoughtabout important attributes of
nation building, like flags,national anthems, for instance.
But along that trajectory, haveyou considered how important
museums are in shaping newstories for our islands, once
disparaged by extraction, forcedlabor, and of course the
(01:05):
demeaning stories and socialhierarchies created by colonial
conquest?
Museums, of course, have manypurposes as vessels of
education, for archival accessand artifact holding, for public
consumption, of course, the listcould go on, but I think
particularly for the region,museums are also a way to combat
(01:28):
centuries of injustice as toldby our history.
So joining our conversationtoday to share the story of
Caribbean museums and nationbuilding, particularly post-the
mid-20th century, and you know,to take us forward into
contemporary times with the workthat is being done today is Mr.
Kevin Farmer, Deputy Director ofthe Barbados Museum and
(01:51):
Historical Society.
Mr.
Farmer, thank you so much forjoining me.
Why don't we begin with yousharing a bit about yourself for
our strictly facts audience, umyour personal connection to the
Caribbean, of course, and whatinspired your passions for
museum history and a little bitmore background in your work in
archaeology?
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
Okay, thank you, Alessandria.
It's great to be here.
I know we only have a short timeto discuss.
So I'm a historian andhistorical archaeologist by
training, born in Barbados, um,but I consider myself to be a
West Indian or Caribbean person.
Um, educated at the Universityof the West Indies at Cape Hill
(02:31):
and at Mona and back to CapeHill.
I've taught at St.
Augustine in Trinidad.
So I've traveled the three maincampuses of the UWI and um
worked in Trinidad and traveledall over the region.
And for me, museums are reallyour storytellers.
(02:52):
It's where our tangible andtangible memories are held, and
it's that space that allows usalmost a free reign into
discussing who we are (03:02):
the good, the bad, the ugly.
It's a space where marginalizedvoices get to be heard.
Um, whether there are poor whitecommunity of Barbados, um, East
Indian communities in Barbados,um, as well as diving into and
(03:26):
exploring the nuances ofenslavement.
For me, that's the importance ofmuseums.
Um, being the space wheremultiple stories can be told at
any time or told together.
And it's where the thecollective memory of a nation
resides and where the importanceof not only continuing the
(03:48):
memory but learning from thepast as well becomes really,
very important in in a way,expressing who we are as a
people and understanding why wedo certain things or why certain
things might have happened inthe past, so that hopefully we
don't repeat it.
Um, so in a way, we are thephysical manifestation of
(04:09):
Sankofa.
We look back in order that wecan chart our way forward.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
Indeed, to go back and fetch it, as they would say,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
Yes, to go back and fetch it.
And and I would say that myinterest in history started at a
very young age.
Um, from my my mom taking me tothe public library here at home,
and she reminded me that thefirst book I ever borrowed was a
history book, which is kind offunny.
I was about maybe five or six.
(04:39):
So I've always been fascinatedby the past, but about what it
can tell us about our future andour present.
And I guess the family history,now that I think about it, drove
me in that direction.
So on my father's side, hisfather was born in Panama of
Barbadian parents who went tobuild the canal.
(05:01):
And I just found that to beutterly fascinating.
And they sent their childrenback to be raised in Barbados.
Um, so I guess that earlyconnection, understanding
migration and how it affectsfamilies and the history behind
why you are where you are, um,kind of fascinated me as a young
(05:23):
child.
And that fascination just kindof kept hold uh during secondary
school and then choosing historyas a first degree.
Um archaeology came aboutbecause those were the courses
offered, and it made merecognize that a simple object
could have as many stories as abook, and and the multiple
(05:46):
stories that can be told about asimple object is what in fact
drew me to that discipline.
And of course, all of thatculminates in almost the open
experience that is a museum.
There's text, there are objects,there's sound, there's moving
image, and and there's the spacein which to tell these stories
(06:11):
and the time to really dive intothem and try to understand them,
and then to see how people getfascinated by learning these uh
new facts.
But first, one of the hardestthings to do in a museum is
write text.
250 words to try to get over allof this in-depth information.
(06:35):
It really taught you how to besuccinct, um, and in a way, how
to in a way tease the audienceto learn more.
In my early career, I found thatreally, really fascinating.
And I still do.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
Thank you so much for sharing just a bit about who
you are and all that isinvolved, I think, really in
museum building that you knowthose on maybe our side, my
side, um, might not even thinkof.
So really appreciate you sharinga bit about that.
I definitely want to kick offour discussion today with taking
(07:12):
us a little bit even beforegetting to, you know, these
post-independence createdmuseums, um, and really chart
what was some of the you knowimpetus for colonially
established museums, if there'sa way of putting it, um, what
purpose they served at the timebefore, you know, many of our
(07:32):
islands became independent andthe goals of those curators, um,
many of those who were, youknow, obviously coming from UK,
from France, Netherlands, thelist could go on, right?
Um, just to really establish areference point for what happens
um later on as we'll continue onin our conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (07:55):
No problem.
So I'll I'll start that firstwith a shameless plug.
Uh so a couple of years ago, Iwas quite privileged.
Um my director at the museum,Alessandra Cummings, is very
well known in the museum world,not only in the region, but
outside of it.
Um we got together with anothercolleague, um, Rosalind Russell
from Australia, and came up withthe idea for a Caribbean museums
(08:20):
book.
Because so often when you'relooking for research on
Caribbean museums, it's notwritten by people in the
Caribbean.
Or we might be asked to write asmall um article in a large
anthology uh made up of personsfrom around the world in
museology, but it was never onethat was specifically focused on
(08:40):
the Caribbean.
Um so we brainstormed andrecognized that we need to tell
the full story of thedevelopment of museums in this
region.
And the title for me was mostapp, From Plantation to Nation,
because it's coming out of thatenlightenment era of trying to
order the world around it.
Um, that we get intocategorization by by Linnaeus,
(09:04):
who people remember for hisclassification of people into
racial hierarchies.
But before that, he was reallythe one who came up with how do
we categorize the world that wesee?
What's the taxonomy in thenomenclature?
And he did all of that work.
And so from very early on, wecan almost start to say that as
(09:27):
persons encountered this newworld, they began to collect and
try to, in their limited way,bring some order to it.
Um, of course, telling theirparticular story.
So very much very early on,those colonial collections were
really about telling the storyof the space that they found
(09:49):
through their particular lens,not necessarily listening or
even fully understanding um whatthe indigenous knowledge was.
So I guess the classic examplefor me would be the core
collection that started theBritish Museum has its origins
in the Caribbean.
(10:10):
So Sahan Sloan collection, whichwas purchased by the British
Parliament, that went on to bethe British Museum's founding
collection, a lot of thatcollection was based on what he
um found, kept, took up,borrowed, stole, maybe in some
(10:31):
instances, um, of the space thathe'd now come into as a young
physician, whether in Jamaica orBarbados, or his travels,
because he was in the in theretinue of the governor at the
time.
And that formed hisunderstanding of this new world
that he was finding.
And it's about understandingthat new world, almost in
(10:56):
juxtaposition to the world youalready knew, is really the
nucleus of what early museums orearly cabinets of curiosities
would have been in this region.
Uh, so we go back to thedevelopment of the Institute of
Jamaica and what was called theVictorian Institute in the 19th
(11:17):
century.
Um, those are really the firstuh early museums set up as
museums in the English-speakingCaribbean at the time.
But the outlook was colonial inthat how do we better understand
the space that we're in relativeto where we've come from?
(11:39):
So the collections and thestories always covered the
indigenous or are the enslavedor the indentured.
It was never our story.
Um, so even the setup of themuseum where I work at the
Barbados Museum, created in1933, is very much as a colonial
(12:02):
museum.
It's really how the elite sawthemselves and saw the history
of the island around them injuxtaposition to the UK, to the
mother country.
And one great example of this,we when you look through some of
the early documents at themuseum, um they outlined, oh, we
(12:26):
want to look at archaeology andunderstand the native past, we
want to understand architectureand how we, I mean, we meaning
Europeans got here and theability to trace that.
But one of the early foundingmembers said, but we don't want
to talk about enslavement.
We we don't want to remind umthe local population of where
(12:51):
they came from, because thatmight incite them to rebellion.
And it's only when you dive intothe history and you recognize
that a lot of our history asenslaved people is very much
foundationally about ourresistance to that enslavement.
You know, understand why thatwas said.
Because how do you want tocontrol a people and then still
(13:13):
acknowledge the fact that, well,they fought against this control
from the get-go.
But in the post-colonial wherewe are now, it's important to
tell those stories because weneed to understand that we are
the descendants of persons whoresisted.
We are descendants of those whosurvive.
(13:33):
We are not victims, and that'san extremely important narrative
to tell coming out of theindependence movement of the
60s, recognizing that there'sstill some English-speaking
islands that are still notindependent.
They're still colonies of theUnited Kingdom, even though
(13:54):
they'll try to find some reallyfancy, wonderful word to dress
it up, um, like the French do insaying Department de Autonomia.
Yeah, still a colony.
You still don't have controlover your own internal or
foreign policy.
You don't.
So museums become the spacesthat get to tell those stories,
(14:15):
but we got to recognize where wecame from.
We came in the most part from aninstitution that sought to say,
um, well, yes, you're a colony,and this is how you should
behave, um, relative to themother country, as opposed to
really telling the truth aboutwho we are and how we got here
(14:38):
and the nuances that developed.
Um, and I think that's ourresponsibility today is to not
only speak truth to power, butto uncover that truth wherever
it is and to give voice to it.
And over the last decade at themuseum, um, we've gotten into
(15:02):
looking at how we can havegreater collaboration with the
community in terms of how do webring these exhibits or public
programming together.
So, anywhere from what initiallyI discussed in Plantation Nation
to Old Talk, or what a colleagueof mine, Natalie McGuire Batson,
(15:23):
has just developed in terms ofcommunity engagement.
I've now forgot what her termis.
I'll come back to me duringduring the course of this
discussion.
Um but she has uh she'sformulated uh a really good
foundation of what that couldbe, and allowing our museums to
speak to multivocality as well,because we live in a region
(15:47):
where we're all mixed.
Um, persons are white, personsare black, persons are
in-between, and Indian andChinese, and African and
Javanese, depending on where yougo, and indigenous, depending on
where you go in the region.
So that our museums then need tobe reflective of those histories
and those stories.
(16:08):
And I think that's criticallyimportant, especially when we
look at the world that we're in,that people are divided along
not only ethnic but religiouslines.
How do we combat that in thespace in which we live?
How do we give voice to it?
I think that's criticallyimportant.
And how do we tell some of thoseuntold stories?
(16:30):
Um, so that's part of theongoing research.
And recognizing that the curatoris not as he or she was seen 50
years ago as the person who'scontrolling the door at the
entrance.
You know, you're not thegatekeeper, you're simply the
(16:50):
facilitator and the guardian toensure that these stories are
passed on from generation togeneration.
And I think that's how Caribbeanmuseums and galleries are
evolving.
SPEAKER_00 (17:05):
I think that was beautifully said and even takes
me to my next question, right?
We have obviously, as youpointed, a set of museums that
were founded prior to ournationalist movements and how
they've evolved.
But really, in your scope, howhave you seen those that you
know came up post-independencehighlight reshaping our national
(17:28):
identity?
I know places like NationalGallery of Jamaica was the first
art gallery, National ArtGallery of the Anglophone
Caribbean being founded in Ithink 1974.
Um, but really, what was thescope of those museums coming to
be and what ideas did they havein mind, especially as the
(17:48):
nations are forming, um,especially as, you know, their
new ways of us talking?
There is also at the time, youknow, scholars really having
either been educated abroad in,you know, the quote unquote
former mother country, dependingon, you know, the years here,
but coming back and reallywanting to be like, okay, this
is the history of Jamaica orBarbados as told through our
(18:11):
eyes.
How did those two dynamicsreally work together to shape
the future of museumspost-colonially?
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
Um, when we take a look at those post-independent
um museums, galleries, heritagesites in the post-independence
period, and it's a radicalrethink of who we are.
And part of it is really aboutthose new academics who are I
(18:41):
were being trained at UniversityCollege of the West Indies,
which is established in 48,first at Mona, and how they in
turn respond to the creation ofthis young nation.
We've moved through Federation,purposes have lamented oh, there
it didn't work out in 62.
But there's this agitation.
(19:01):
We need to be independent.
Look at what's happened inIndia, look at what's happening
in Africa.
Um, some of these potentialleaders went to school with
those persons who were leadingthose nationalist movements in
those um spaces, whether it'sAfrica or the subcontinent.
And the history was changing.
(19:24):
So the social history that isbeing taught and being
researched in the late 60s and70s, um that privileges us um
built on on the on Williams'thesis of capitalism and
slavery, Walter Rodney's howyou're underdeveloped Africa,
(19:47):
um, Elsa Kavaya, um WoodwillMarshall, Sidney Mint.
All of that is is building up tothe point where who are we?
What are we?
What have we done?
How do we showcase this?
How do we channel all of thisenergy into this into this
(20:10):
independent movement?
So you've got the development ofthe National Art Gallery in in
Jamaica, but I will sayalongside that for Jamaica that
I find most interesting is thedevelopment of what was a craft
museum in in Spanish Tongue atthe same time, which really to
(20:32):
me said we're privileging ourability to innovate at uh at a
local level.
And so craft is not just craft,craft is about how we have found
solutions to local problems in agiven space.
(20:53):
And so the two of them together,so art at one end, which is seen
up there, and and craft, whichis seen down there, and they
both have their independentspaces to tell the story of
Jamaica.
Um, and of course, thedevelopment of the Adamani
school, um, that also saidacademics are great, but there
(21:16):
must be equal footing for theartists.
Whether the person is a visualartist or dancer or singer or
poet or playwright, they must beequal footing.
And the 70s then becomes pivotalfor a whole number of reasons.
The black power movement, thethe acknowledgement, even though
we haven't fully acknowledgedit, how black Mycenaean students
(21:41):
and Black Mycenaeanintellectuals are in fact
foundational to the civil rightsmovement in the states in the
60s and 70s.
Um we don't pay enough attentionto that.
And all of them coming togetherin the region to begin.
To have the question about whowe are and recognize that 74
(22:04):
period, we're getting into thefirst CARI Festa, which is about
us celebrating us.
So here we are, these regionalgovernments coming together.
And for the audience who don'tremember CARIFESTA or Karifta
and may only see Karifta as anathletics competition, uh,
(22:25):
Karifta is really the precursorto CARICOM, or should we say it
is the stepchild of federation,um, where there's a recognition
that there is some good to behad by bringing us together in a
regional market systemeconomically.
(22:46):
But then person said, well,economics is one thing, but what
about the social and cultural?
And that breeds car fasta.
And and for that almost decade,there's a series of policy
workshops and meetings andgatherings about how do we
advance our respective cultures.
(23:08):
So Kamal Braffit writes uh whatis almost the pillar of what our
cultural policy is in the 70s.
The same thing happens inJamaica and it happens in
Trinidad, and these are stillour guiding documents to today,
coming out of that radicalphase.
We're still in that radicalphase because we we continue to
(23:32):
evolve and refine those policydocuments and bring them to
life.
Um, in some cases, um whathappens on the street overtakes
the policy.
We just have to look at the thegrowth and development of ska
and mento into reggae and andthe independent producers and
(23:55):
and singers.
There's there's an earlyBarbadian singer, but he's one
of the early reggae singers inJamaica.
In fact, Bob Marley and theWailers were his backup at one
point.
And and there's a there'sthere's a wonderful story where
Bob mentions him.
The name will come back to me atsome time.
Um and we need to tell thestories because even though we
(24:21):
see music as national, music atthat time was very Caribbean.
Musicians moved wherever therewas work, didn't stay static.
Um, and and that needs also tobe acknowledged and recognized.
But all of this is coalescing,and part of the manifestation of
(24:43):
that is actually the developmentof some of those early
institutions.
So Jackie Opal was the was thesinger in Barbados who made it
big in Jamaica, um, singing skaand reggae, and then moved back
to Barbados to invent a newmusic called Spooch, but he died
(25:03):
quite young.
But but pivotal in thedevelopment of reggae and
bringing to light um Tosh andMarley and the Whalers.
So we also need to understandthe interconnectedness of our
stories as well.
But here you have for the firsttime, 74 as a precursor to
(25:24):
Carfasta, um, where you actuallyget to see your own art and not
just your own art utilizing theEuropean canon, but your own
intuitive artists presentingwhat they see of themselves to
you.
So you almost have thatreflective mirror.
(25:45):
Here's how we see ourselves.
Let's let's really have a talkabout this, and that goes on to
spawn a whole set of um nationalgalleries throughout the region,
or the creation of nationalcollections, sands, galleries.
And at the same time, you'llfind that most of the postcard
(26:08):
institutions, oddly enough, aregalleries.
They're not necessarily museums,they're they're all about the
visual.
That might have been adeliberate policy.
We we got to go back and reallytake a critical look at what
those policy documents um weresaying.
Um, but it's about acknowledgingthat we can create and that we
(26:30):
can innovate.
And I still think that we aresomewhat in that particular
sphere as well, where we arerecognizing and acknowledging
that we are creators and notjust consumers.
And and and the interestingthing for me to note is that
(26:52):
National Gallery Jamaica in 74happens after the first CARI
Festa, which is 1972 in Guyana.
So, you know, what is the whatis the impetus um from CARI
Festa that leads to thedevelopment of national
galleries um in the 1970s andearly 80s in the region.
(27:14):
Um, but it's about recognizing,for me, it's about recognizing
that we are creative andacknowledging that.
And then, of course, at the endof the day, the artist is always
the original critique of theirsociety, uh, whether in music,
dance, song, or or movingvisuals.
(27:35):
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
That brings me to a point you made earlier, um,
really thinking about thediversity of the region, right?
You know, in terms of artidentity and national makeup or
ethnic makeup, right, and racialmakeup.
We have people of Asian descent,people of African descent, et
(27:57):
cetera, et cetera.
Um, I've, you know, we've hadepisodes on Jewish identity in
the Caribbean and um all of thatto say our national movements
were really, in a sense, touphold our black populations,
right?
Ones that um were plagued bycenturies of enslavement and
wanting to reshape the memory ofwhat was, you know, determined
(28:21):
by the colonial bodies.
How successful do you thinkthese museums springing up post
the 60s, how successful werethey in doing that?
And then, you know, as anadd-on, what were maybe some of
the challenges or what hasevolved since then to also
uphold the legacies of, youknow, say indeed indentured
(28:42):
servitude or, you know, many ofthe other um ethnic bodies we
have?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Yeah.
Um, critically, we were theyweren't very good at telling the
story of everyone um simplybecause they were so focused on
dealing with the binary.
How do you deal with telling thestory of an island or country
(29:08):
that has come out of thiscolonial oppression?
And and the major colonialoppression was about enslavement
and and being a colony.
How do you position your people,the majority of whom are of
African descent for the mostpart, in building them up and
(29:29):
making them realize that theycould achieve everything?
So that early post-independentdevelopment of uh museums and
art galleries and heritageinstitutions was very much about
confronting that colonial pastand in some doing, pushing um
(29:52):
smaller groups, um marginalizedin terms of I'm dealing with
size, not necessarily economicclout, um, to the periphery.
And it's only in the last 20years, 30 years, because you've
got now remember, we're in 2024.
Wow, which is amazing for someof us.
(30:12):
So 24 years ago, it was 2000, 10years before that, we're we're
at 1990.
So in the last 34 years, becausewe have in a way successfully
planted what it is to be uh anindependent nation state, um,
that we can begin to say, okay,what are the other stories that
(30:34):
we've not been telling?
And in fact, when you look inthose spaces, the mere fact that
you've got museums or galleriesdedicated to um the Jewish past,
Asian, and Asian meaning SouthAsian as well, so indentured
andor China andor Java also saysum that that initial movement
(31:02):
failed them.
And we've got to acknowledgethat.
Um even even in terms of howthose national museums told the
story of women, in most casesthey didn't.
They told the stories of elitewomen for the most part, but not
of everyday women.
Um, so part of the redress, I'llsay, in the last 20 years is
(31:25):
about bringing the marginalvoices from the periphery to the
core and giving them the space.
And I think we're right now inthat particular period.
Um, so uh at the BarbadosMuseum, if you were to go to um
our website, we we speak to someof how we've engaged with those
(31:48):
communities.
We're in the middle, midst ofdoing an online digital
exhibition on East Indianmigration to Barbados, which
didn't happen during the periodof indentureship.
Um, in fact, it's a early 1910,1920 migration directly from
India to Barbados, personslooking for economic
(32:11):
opportunity, but not indentured.
Um, so it's it's different thanwhat happens in Jamaica, Guyana,
Trinidad, Suriname, forinstance.
But we recognize that there's aneed to tell that story.
Um, and just recently I did aprogram where I spoke about the
poor white community inBarbados, which we refer to as
(32:33):
um red legs.
Um I can't remember what theJamaican term is.
Um in the French Islands, it ispetit biket, small white.
Um, but we need to recognize andgive voice to those communities
because they're still here withus.
(32:54):
Uh, and to understand how theysee themselves in relation to
the nation state is is extremelyimportant.
And and then, of course, how dowe deal with women?
One, how do we deal with evermarginalized groups, um, whether
they are hearing or sightingpaired?
(33:14):
How do we allow our exhibitionsto be accessible to them?
So these are still some of thethings that we're we're
grappling with now.
But I think we've we've come along way, but there's so much
fervor that we need to go um togive voice.
Um, I remember a couple of yearsago going to National Museums
(33:36):
Jamaica, the Social HistoryMuseum, and they had a really
fantastic exhibition on um theearly development of SCA and
Mento, something that you mightnot have seen 30 years before.
Um, so there's a reason um tothen dive into sub-genres and
subcultures um to understand andbring them out to the fore and
(33:59):
allow those stories to be told.
Um, I think that is where weneed to go.
So now the intersection betweenfilm and how film and
documentaries can help museumsreach new audiences and tell
those stories becomes animportant tool in how we develop
(34:21):
our interaction and activity andprogramming and accessibility uh
becomes critically, criticallyimportant.
And the other aspect in thereis, and we're still trying to
figure this out, how best do weengage the community to find out
what they really want to see ata museum?
(34:44):
We've got to do that as well.
You can never make theassumption that we know best, we
do not.
So that's why co-curation is isso fundamental as a tool of
engagement where the communitiesbecome co-curators with you in
whatever you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
As you were talking, I also thought of Trinidad's um
Indian Caribbean museum sprangup during 2006.
So, you know, very much in linewith this.
SPEAKER_01 (35:13):
Very much in line.
Yeah, very much in line.
Um, and and then of course,there are those things that
happened in this century thatwe've not even delved into
properly.
There's no trade union museumper se.
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
Um, there isn't a museum of migration.
So we better understand whatmigration to Cuba, Panama,
Colombia, internal, well, when Isay internal, internal carbine
migration.
Um, Barbanians to Trinidad inthe 1890s and the early part of
(35:51):
the 20th century.
Uh, migrations to Jamaicafollowing United Food Company
around the turn of the century,how does that alter populations
as well?
So there's so much more to betold, and there's so many
different stories that we haveyet to explore, is that we've
got to start the work now.
Um, because unfortunately, we'vewe're missing out on almost the
(36:13):
firsthand accounts of the peoplewho were directly involved in
that.
Um, it almost makes me thinkthat as a region, we we need to
have a wider program similar towhat happened in the States
after the depression, where umwas it working, was it working
(36:34):
People's Association went intodifferent spaces and simply
recording the lived experienceof people, um, recognizing that
it was important enough torecord it.
Maybe they didn't quite knowwhat to do with it.
When the mere fact that youarchived that material meant
that 20, 30, 40 years later,someone can go back to it and
have an understanding of whatall of that meant and write
(36:56):
books, have documentaries,create exhibits.
We need to be doing that now.
Um, in in terms of labormovements, migration, um, the
progress of women, how do wedeal with marginalized groups?
We need to capture thatinformation now.
Also, it's going to be lost tous.
And I think that's that's one ofthe key things that museums can
(37:20):
do.
Um, recognizing, of course, thenit means that as one of the
institutions, we need we need tobe placed firmly within the
developmental agenda of ourgovernments, which for the most
part only remembers culture onceor twice a year, whether it's
carnival or some larger nationalevent, um, that they then
(37:42):
decide, oh dear, yes, we need acultural component.
Cultural component has alwaysbeen here.
Um, you just, you know, need topay a bit more attention to it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:53):
I couldn't have you on this episode without talking
about, you know, more recentconversations uh around museums.
I think this more so um hascontended with museums in the
quote unquote developed world,right?
So I I particularly think ofthat scene in Black Panther in
(38:14):
the first movie, um, you know,when the curator is like, oh,
this is from da-da-da-da-da, youknow.
Um, and then, you know,rightfully so, um, she gets
clapped backed on in a sense andis like, actually, this artifact
that, you know, you've held inyour museum for however long was
stolen, right?
(38:35):
And so I that's something that Inecessarily haven't thought
about in terms of um whatartifacts and things that we
hold, or you know, if there havebeen attempts to get artifacts
back from the UK, from France,um, and even just how things
have been, you know, moved orrepatriated back for our region.
SPEAKER_01 (38:58):
We're slowly in that beginning process of
repatriation, but there's a stepbefore that.
We we actually have to have theengagement where we understand,
well, what's in your collectionthat speaks about us?
In some instances, um, a lot ofthe museums um in in the former
(39:23):
metropoles don't know what theyhave.
Um I've been part of a grouprecently, or invited on to a
group recently, um, museums inScotland who are trying to
understand what's in theircollection in the Caribbean and
Africa.
Because in some instances, theircurators aren't trained in those
(39:45):
areas, so they don't know, orthey haven't really done the
deep dive into their catalogs tounderstand the provenance of
what they have, and thenbeginning to have conversations
with us in the region, not onlyabout what the object is, um,
but what does it say?
And then the the largerconversation about okay, great,
(40:07):
you have it, we don't.
How do we look at repatriation?
What does that look like?
Um, and it might be an easierdiscussion in Scotland who have
begun to repatriate over thelast almost two decades
material, as opposed to inEngland, where they're so
resistant.
Because, of course, if theystarted to go down one line, we
(40:29):
all know that the Greeks willremind them the elgin marbles
don't belong to you.
There's spoils of war, there'sthere's a need for some you know
reversal and reciprocity.
Yes.
Um, but we're getting there.
So I know later on this yearthere's going to be a
repatriation of a naturalhistory object from Scotland to
(40:51):
Jamaica, which is going to beamazing.
So I look forward to when theythey release that information.
I just mentioned it here um topique interest and to tease.
Um, but Shani Roper at UWI Muna,who's a curator there, is the
person to talk to about that.
But repatriation is beginning.
(41:13):
Those conversations arehappening, perhaps not as fast
as we would like.
Um, but but they're happening.
And even in the areas ofarchaeology, we begin to have
discussions about well, whatdoes archaeology look like when
we've got outside researcherscoming in?
Um, there's need to talk about adecolonization around that as
(41:36):
well, because all of ourinstitutions, for the most part,
and our disciplines, um,especially archaeology, are
created out of colonial context.
And in fact, created because ofcolonization.
Um, how do how do they at thefoundational level begin to
redress how they were createdfor the future?
(41:58):
How do they address theimbalances and what does
decolonization look like?
Um, not only global north toglobal south, uh, but global
south to global south.
And there are going to be somedifficult discussions, but
necessary discussions, which wehave to have if we want to be
(42:20):
honest in the telling of thatstory.
Um yeah, and I think that'swhere we're going.
We we also recognize thatthere's been pushback, whether
it's being termed as beinganti-woke, whatever that is.
Um but for me, it's about thetelling of the truth.
It's about no longer hidinghistorical facts, but being open
(42:47):
and transparent about them andseeing how they can lead to
healing on the one side, closingof trauma at the other, but it's
necessary.
SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
That brings me to, you know, one of my favorite
questions of all, as ourlisteners will know, I ask this
question every episode.
Um, I think, and as you rightlypointed to, in terms of our
music, um, our festivals,carnival, et cetera, there is a
way that our popular cultureholds our history that, you
(43:21):
know, people might not alwaysput the two and two together.
And so my aim through thisquestion is always to weed that
out a little bit and, you know,maybe get our listeners to read
a novel or, you know, listen toa song that references a
particular moment in ourhistory.
So is there something like thatfor you that is really
(43:42):
reflective of museums andnational identity coming up
during this period that ishighlighted in popular culture?
SPEAKER_01 (43:51):
Oh wow.
Uh yes.
And what I'm going to bring tomind will reference both.
Jamaica, but it has resonance.
So we have a small Africangallery here at the museum that
we created about a decade ago.
It was a temporary exhibitionthat stood up for 17 years
(44:12):
because people were sointerested.
And then around 2000, we said,okay, we need to make this a
permanent gallery.
And so we expanded the galleryfrom 200 square feet to 800
square feet and sought to tellin very broad breath strokes
about the history of thecontinent going back from the
(44:33):
development of early hominidsinto Homo sapiens all the way up
to what Africa looks today.
And there is one exhibition whenwe take people through, we
remind them of Bob Marley's songWar.
(44:56):
Because it's an Ethiopianscroll.
So and we we use that to showhow global events continue to
(45:19):
shape us and how we in turncontinue to shape the world
around us.
And to remind people that thoughwe might see ourselves as small,
our impact on the world is somuch greater than that.
And this is for me a veryimportant message that anyone
(45:42):
coming through a museum in theregion should leave knowing our
impact on the wider world.
(46:03):
I think it's Zimbabwe.
And we we have Marley SongZimbabwe and reminding people of
the invitation at the time, youknow, so to recognize
connections but also recognizeresonance.
Um for me.
The other more important objectI'll point to in our museum is
(46:25):
we have a small agate beadexcavated from the enslaved
barrel ground at Newton, whichis a plantation here.
Now, this agate bead, I remindpeople, is globalization.
It's an agate bead that comesfrom India, made its way across
the Atlantic, was buried in thecoffin of an enslaved man who
(46:49):
was brought to an island in theMid-Atlantic to grow an Asian
grass called sugar cane forprocess and export to Europe.
And this is the 18th century.
So globalization starts here.
Understand why we are where weare and the outsize role that we
(47:11):
have played in the world andwill continue to play, um, to
ground us as to who we are andto recognize that our story
doesn't begin and end withenslavement, but is a much
larger story as well, as apeople.
SPEAKER_00 (47:27):
I will definitely add those to our strictly fact
syllabus, as well as yourco-edited book From Plantation
to Nation, which I think walksus through beautifully some of,
you know, not only the historyof those founding museums during
our colonial period, but alsothe history of museums like the
National Gallery in Jamaica,like the Junkanoo Museum in
(47:51):
Bahamas, that are really, youknow, doing the work that we've
been talking about today,showcasing the histories of not
just, you know, those who werecolonized, but also those
smaller subset groups who have,you know, didn't necessarily get
the early recognition in ourimmediate post-colonial period.
So definitely wanted tohighlight that as well.
(48:13):
And I'll add it to our SterlyFact Syllabus and in the show
notes.
Um, and so for my final questionfor our conversation today,
we've talked about some of theways that museums have been
evolving, some of the work thatneeds to be done.
We are now in a period whereseveral islands have even, you
know, moved to republic status,or as you very well know, of
(48:37):
course, right?
Um, or, you know, have beentalking about moving to republic
status as well.
How do you think museums willreflect the last 50-ish, you
know, depending on which island,of course, but the last few
decades of us being independentfor the future and, you know,
just what ways you see themeither shaping the future, um,
(48:59):
using things like technology toconnect across even the region
and the diaspora?
SPEAKER_01 (49:05):
Um let me take it first, starting with the
movement towards Republicanstatus.
Uh, for me, the movement towardsRepublican status is the
continuation of a continuum.
Um, from the time we werebrought, forcibly brought here,
we resisted.
The various ways in which wehave resisted and manifested
(49:27):
that resistance lies both inphysical rebellion, moves
through to the establishment oftrade unions, the want to have
workers' and people's rights tothe independence movement in the
1960s, um, through torepublicanism.
(49:48):
So for me, it's a continuum,it's the last four or five
hundred years continuum towardsself-government and self-rule.
But in that, recognizing thatwe're not the only people in
this space, but how do we bringalong our indigenous communities
in the spaces in which they'restill found?
(50:08):
How do we bring along ourmarginalized communities in the
spaces where they are?
And utilizing technology notonly to capture memory, but
utilizing technology to createcontent that allows us to tell
the interconnectedness of thosestories across our entire
(50:31):
region.
Um, our carbine sea is not ablock.
Our carbine sea is conduit toeach other.
And the various stories thatwe've told over time, the fact
that a national hero of Barbadosis born in Trinidad, with
Barbadian parents, you know, thefact that one of the major um
(50:56):
labor leaders in Trinidad comesfrom a smaller island called
Grenada, we need to tell theinterconnectedness of those
stories.
So technology allows us tocapture, but also then allows us
to build up content.
Um, I look forward to the daywhere we ourselves together
(51:17):
create uh a documentary calledthe Caribbean and not have to
watch one on the BBC that reallydoesn't reflect us.
Like, likewise, with podcastslike yours, we we go to that
online portal and download thosemultiple stories about us.
I think that's where technologyis pushing us, and I think
(51:39):
that's where we need where weneed to go.
Um so podcasts like yours andothers being the Coursera or or
the West Indiana of who we arebecomes necessary going forward.
And it's in the small and and inthe big things.
(52:02):
Um whether it's about thecomplexities of the rums that we
we create and drink, or it'sabout how we take that basic
product called cornmeal and turnit into so many different
things, whether it's um dukunnaor peme or conki or kinke, turn
(52:29):
cornmeal or cuckoo or polento,you know, it's it's about
creating that and having accessto it and understanding the
connectedness between them, Ithink is where we're going.
And technology will will andshould allow us to do that.
It should make our storiesaccessible and our shared paths
(52:53):
accessible as well.
And I think that's where museumsneed to go.
We need to see ourselves ascontent creators across multiple
platforms, utilizing all media.
That is that is what we are.
In fact, that that makes usstand out in terms of the
(53:13):
heritage sphere in the region.
We are content creators uhbecause we house both
two-dimensional andthree-dimensional, tangible and
intangible objects of our pastthat can speak to a future.
Um, and I think that's where ourstrength lies.
And it's how we need to build onand build out the telling of our
(53:35):
story.
SPEAKER_00 (53:36):
I have no final words after that.
I think that was effectivelysaid.
Um, thank you for the work thatyou're doing for all of the
museum curators, you know,really helping to shape not only
the education and awareness thatwe have for the region, um, the
movements that we've made acrossthe world, really and our impact
(53:56):
on the world.
Um, and really just, you know,changing the landscape of how we
define ourselves away from, youknow, what was colonially
imposed.
So thank you so much, Mr.
Farmer, of course, for joiningme for this episode to our
Strictly Facts family.
I hope you enjoyed learning abit about museums, the history
of them, and how they're movingforward.
(54:18):
And I will, of course, add allof the, you know, many things we
talked about, whether it's theresources, the books, the songs,
um, and links, of course, to theBarbados Museum and Historical
Society, to our um syllabus andshow notes for you all to check
out yourselves.
So again, thank you so much forlistening.
Thank you, Mr.
Farmer and Lickle Moore,everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (54:40):
Yeah, thank you very much.
I enjoyed it.
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