April 1, 2026 • 43 mins
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Today, we reshare our reasoning with Dr. Paul López Oro to trace the Garifuna story across Caribbean history, from St Vincent and the Carib Wars to forced exile in 1797 and the building of communities along the Central America Caribbean coast in Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, Nicaragua, and beyond. Along the way, we wrestle with what it means to be Black and Indigenous at the same time, especially in societies that insist those identities must be separate.
We dig into the “void in the archive” and why collective memory and oral tradition become more than storytelling. For Garifuna communities, memory shapes political life right now: claims to ancestral territories, fights for land rights, and daily resistance to anti-Blackness and anti-Indigeneity in nationalist narratives that erase contributions made long before the modern republics were born. From there, we explore Garifuna Settlement Day as an embodied archive and a public demand for visibility, first in Belize and later in New York City. We connect diaspora routes to labor history in the United States, including pathways through New Orleans and the long work of building community “in the company of” other Black populations.
Dr. Paul Joseph López Oro is an Assistant Professor and Director of Africana Studies at Bryn Mawr College. He is a transdisciplinary Black Studies scholar whose teaching and research interests are on Black Latin American and U.S. Black Latinx social movements, Black diaspora theories and ethnographies, and Black Queer Feminisms. His research interests include Black politics in Latin America, the Caribbean and U.S. AfroLatinidades, Black Latinx LGBTQ movements and performances, and Black transnationalism. He is working on his first book manuscript, Indigenous Blackness: The Queer Politics of Self-Making Garifuna New York, is a transdisciplinary ethnographic study analyzing oral histories, performances, social media, film, literary texts and visual cultures to unearth the political, intellectual, cultural and spiritual genealogies of Garifuna women and subaltern geographies of Garifuna LGBTQ+ folks at the forefront of Garifuna transnational movements in New York City.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a Guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, Alexandra Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Great talking.
(00:21):
Hello everyone, and welcome backto another episode of Strictly
Facts, the Guide to CaribbeanHistory and Culture.
In today's episode, we'refollowing up on a very necessary
history that we briefly touchedupon in our conversation on
Belize.
Oftentimes, in discussions ofrace and ethnicity in the
Caribbean in general, we tend tofocus on black populations,
(00:42):
oftentimes the descendants ofenslaved Africans, and
additionally Asian populations,you know, usually from India or
China, descendants of indenturedservants.
But less often do we reallyconsider indigenous communities
like the Tayina or the Arawak,especially in the present moment
in the fact that, contrary topopular belief, indigenous
(01:02):
communities still exist in theCaribbean today.
Joining us today to chat aboutindigenous Caribbean communities
and the long overshadowedhistory of one particular
community, the Garafuna, is Dr.
Pablo José Lopez Oro.
Dr.
Oro, thank you so much forjoining Strictly Facts today.
Why don't you begin by tellingus a bit about yourself and how
(01:24):
you became passionate aboutstudying Indigenous Caribbean
communities like the Garafuna?
SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm incredibly honored andhumbled to be in your amazing
company.
All the love for your podcast.
I'm incredibly grateful to bepart of this conversation.
So, um, where did it all kind ofstart?
So, Garifuna folks are BlackIndigenous community from St.
Vincent, whose history ofmarunage, see marunaje in St.
(01:52):
Vincent and their eventual exilefrom British colonial powers in
1797, landom in CentralAmerica's Caribbean coast,
particularly the Bay Islands ofHonduras.
And then there's mainlandmigration to Belize, Guatemala,
mainland Honduras, andNicaragua.
I am a third-generation BrooklynKnight of Garifana-Honduran
(02:13):
descent.
I'm really particular about thethird generation Brooklyn
Knight, particularly because mypaternal line, which is from
Dangriga, Belize, migrates toNew York City, specifically
Harlem, in 1962, which reallydetails a larger hemispheric
movement of Black Indigenouscommunities, specifically
Garifana folks have been in theUS, and particularly the US
(02:36):
South, due to their labor withthe United Fruit Company, have
been in the US since the 1950s.
And this is a community thatremains slightly understudied,
but also simultaneously reallystudied.
So there's this interesting kindof scholarly conundrum around
garifuna folks, particularlybecause garifuna folks, as Black
(02:58):
indigenous peoples, um, kind ofreally create this scholarly
puzzle for particularly foranthropologists, right?
So there's a ton of ethnographicresearch on Garifuna folks in
Central America.
There isn't enough scholarshipon Garifuna folks in the US.
So this is where my work ismaking an intervention and
contribution to the body ofscholarship on Black diaspora
(03:20):
studies and hopefully on Blackindigenous studies, right?
To kind of think about well,what does it mean to start
considering peoples of Africandescent in the Americas,
particularly uh survivors of theMiddle Passage and their
descendants as indigenous to theAmericas?
And Garifuna folks really modelto us the possibilities of
indigenous blackness in reallygenitive ways.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
It's so funny that you said that because you jump
right in almost to my firstquestion.
One that we touched a bit uponin my discussion on the Maroons
in Jamaica as well.
The Garifuna, in our particulardiscussion today, are
descendants of, as youmentioned, indigenous
communities, um, whether that bethe Arawak or the Kalingo, as
(04:04):
well as enslaved Africans.
Um could you walk us a bitthrough what is known about this
early history and the connectionbetween Black and Indigenous
groups, you know, in that sortof 17th, 18th century period?
SPEAKER_02 (04:17):
Absolutely.
Um, so in terms of the Garifunacontext, right, a lot of the
collective memory, right?
So I turned to, you know, tokind of think about even
Hartman's work around thearchive, right?
There is a void in the archive,right?
Um, and Mark Anderson at theUniversity of California, Santa
Cruz really does this reallyphenomenal work of kind of
teasing out um British archivesto kind of get a sense of, well,
(04:41):
you know, Garifuna folks werecalled black Caribs.
There was a moments of YellowCaribs, Red Caribs in St.
Vincent.
But the collective memory thatGarifuna folks have throughout
the diaspora is that we aredescendants of shipwrecked
slaves, right?
Um, that a lot of our collectivenostalgia around ancestry in St.
Vincent is about a certain kindof uh fugitive freedom, right?
(05:04):
It's about a simaronaje, uh amaronage that is really built on
being shipwrecked slaves, butalso Arawak Arab peoples, right?
And this hybridity reallyinforms um our political
subjectivity.
It really informs the wayGarifuna folks negotiate 21st
century politics in CentralAmerica around land rights, land
(05:29):
titles, uh, particularly when umGarifuna activists refer to
Central America's Caribbeancoast as terrenos ancestrales,
right?
Ancestral territories, and whatdoes it mean for Black
Indigenous people to make land,to create land, and to construct
land as ancestral, um, which isactually quite not unique to
(05:49):
Garifuna folks, right?
Um, black Colombians, I'mthinking particularly around the
labor and political activism ofFrancia Marquez, where she talks
about her community in Colombiafrom the 15th, 16th century as
being built by enslavedAfricans, right?
That this is her ancestral land,right?
That even though Africa is thishomeland, that Colombia, right,
(06:10):
La Toma Colombia is herancestral land.
And in fact, black folksthroughout Latin America and the
Caribbean have used land inreally important ways to
negotiate their not only theirblackness, but their rights in
that space, um, especiallywithin nations that deny their
existence and and particularlyerase their existence to the
(06:30):
building of the nation state.
One thing about Garifona folksin particular, about this
collective memory about beingshipwrecked, is that there's
this um turn to culture, right?
So there's this, you know,choreographed problematic
negotiation when it comes toshipwreck slaveness, right?
Because there's also adistancing to the histories of
(06:52):
plantation life.
There's also a distancing toslavery that I'm not really
particularly convinced yet thatthat distancing does much, if
any, if that makes sense, right?
Like I think that distancing isdone to also say, well, this is
why our culture has stayedintact.
And I'm not really certain thatthat is actually the cause,
right?
And I think there's somethingparticularly interesting about
(07:14):
the collective history aroundmarunage, self-governance, um,
particularly on the island ofSt.
Vincent, that allows for thispolitical imaginary to become
really expansive, right?
Whether it's archivallyfact-checked or not.
Um, and in fact, my work isreally much more interested in
political imaginations, right?
(07:34):
So thinking about this, eventhis idea of Garifuna's
settlement day in CentralAmerica, right?
So I'm not interested in whetherthe archive can prove what
actually happened when Garifunafolks were exiled to Central
America's Caribbean coast.
What I'm actually reallyinterested is how Garifuna folks
right now use that collectivememory, that social memory of
(07:55):
the arrival to Central Americaas a position of freedom, right?
As a position of fugitivegeographies, of maroon
geographies, right?
And I think in particular,what's really interesting in the
case of Garifuna folks is thatin all of the nation states that
Garifana folks reside and liveand thrive in, their
racialization and interpolationas Black people really questions
(08:17):
their indigeneity because we arewe're still in this 21st century
moment where we compartmentalizeindigenous people and black
people as separate, right?
As in mutually exclusive fromeach other.
And we don't really reckon withthe histories that are quite
literally at the intersectionsof each other, right?
Um Garifana folks really modelto us what does it mean to
(08:38):
actually think and engage on thepolitical histories of living
and breathing Black Indigenousfolks, right?
Who also are called to performtheir indigeneity in really
different ways, right?
And who are called to reallyenact indigeneity because their
blackness, right, and theirblack bodies are still described
as non-indigenous.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
I want us to take a step back because I think a lot
of what you got to, I want tostill get to.
But for those who may not befamiliar with Getarfuna's
history, you know, we've jumpedfrom St.
Vincent to Central America toNew York to, you know, the
diaspora.
But could you walk us a bitthrough concretely what happens
(09:21):
particularly in in St.
Vincent that forces this exileabroad to, you know, the Central
American coast and maybe whatlens to, you know, the first and
second Caribbears in the 18thcentury, et cetera?
SPEAKER_02 (09:35):
Absolutely.
So what's happening in St.
Vincent is that here you havethe emergence of Garifano
peoples and they'reself-governed, right?
They're constantly in battlewith uh British and French
colonial powers in St.
Vincent, and they're verysuccessful, right?
And they're actually um in thecolonial records, they're seen
as these really hostile,warrior-like Africans, right?
(09:56):
They're literally understood asthese constant militant
enslavement resisting Europeancolonial rule, and it actually
creates this very um importanthistory around military.
Um, there is this uh Garifunachief, um, which is adorned and
loved and venerated, JosephSatuye, um, who is understood to
(10:18):
have fought against the Britishand won and was really
successful.
And there's actually there's areally fascinating story behind
Satouye and his wife Baruda.
Um, Baruda was uh one ofSatouye's wives, and essentially
one of the kind of politicalimaginaries around that story is
that uh there's cross-dressing.
(10:38):
One of the military strategiesagainst uh the British and the
French was to have the soldierscross-dress.
So the men were in women attire,and the military didn't expect.
So it's this big moment whereBaruda says, and I'm gonna say
it in Spanish because the wayit's kind of collectively said
and memorialized is that um sivos no te pones los pantalones,
(11:02):
yo me pongo los pantalones,right?
So if you don't put your pantson, I'll put them on, right?
And this is like kind of theoral history that has kind of
transgenerationally passed on.
And it's actually really tellingabout the gender politics,
right?
It's really telling, um,particularly because Garyfuna
folks are a matrilineal society,right?
So women are not simply justkind of these placeholders on
(11:23):
the economic labor division.
Like literally, women are theancestral connection, the
landowners, right?
They're the ones that have umancestral knowledge that is
passed on to women.
The matrilineal is beyondeconomics, right?
It's beyond the labor division.
It's quite literally in the veryfabric of the entire culture.
(11:43):
So, because of that matrilinealpractice and custom and
tradition, this narrativeactually is really informative,
right?
It really tells us that Garifunawomen were at the forefront of
the military prowls, right?
The forefront of military geniuswhen it comes to how Garifuna
folks were able to battleagainst the British and the
French.
Um, so this moment, this kind ofscene around the Carib Wars, um,
(12:08):
if we were to like Garifunizeit, um, is to really actually
understand that Garifuna womengave that military intelligence
to Garifuna men.
Um, and it's actually a reallypowerful oral history that
remains, but still slightly ontowed because matrilineal
society and culture doesn'tnecessarily mean that massage
noir doesn't exist, thatpatriarchy is very much still
(12:29):
intact, even though there's amatrilineal um culture and
society.
So I think it's important for meto like pinpoint that a little
bit.
But also what's happening herein the exile in St.
Vincent is that Garifana folksaren't exile because they just
don't succumb to to Europeancolonial forces.
And and the the treaty, like theactual treaty between Garifana
(12:51):
folks and the British was like,you gotta go, right?
You gotta go.
Uh the British had a lot ofplans with St.
Vincent.
They had imagined St.
Vincent to be another pearl ofthe West Indies, and they just
had to literally take out theBlack Caribs, right?
And at that point, Garifunafolks are in the archive, are
being called Black Caribs.
Once again, Mark Anderson writeshis gorgeous piece for the
(13:12):
Journal of TransformingAnthropology, where he's like,
there's these different racialcategorizations that's happening
in the archives.
There's Red Caribs, there'syellow Caribs, there's Black
Caribs, and the Garifuna folks,Garinagu, are the Black Caribs,
and they're the most resistingones, right?
So there's this collectivememory is really telling to the
ideas of like survival andresistance and perseverance,
(13:35):
right, in the face of Europeancolonization, um, which really
kind of marks the diaspora, theGarifuna diaspora, right?
Because one of the big momentsin the arrival, it's a rival of
exile, right?
It's a rival of British colonialforces, just taking Garifuna
folks off of St.
Vincent.
And St.
Vincent is quite literally theancestral homeland of Garinagu.
(13:56):
And Garinagu is the pluralformation of Garifuna.
So I'll go back and forthbecause it's like in my brain,
it makes more sense to like it'sall of us.
So Garinagu, um, and Garifuna iskind of just like the
descriptive adjective of theculture and music, but that
exile is really important inCentral America because in that
exile, you know, Garifuna folksare arriving to a Central
(14:18):
American Caribbean coast wherethere are already other black
folks, where there are Creole,Mosquito, Linca, where there are
other indigenous communities aswell, who are also resisting
European colonialism, right?
So this long history of Blackand Indigenous resistance on
Central America's Caribbeancoast, Garifuna folks are
walking into it in 1797.
(14:40):
Um and it becomes a reallyimportant marker because that's
happening before the wars ofindependence of 1821.
And that's an important datebecause that means Garifuna
folks and Creole folks andMosquito folks and Linca folks,
they're fighting in these warsof independence.
But they don't get to benarrated into that national
(15:01):
historical project, right?
They're certainly left outbecause of their blackness and
indigeneity.
So when we look at CentralAmerica's kind of nationalist
ideologies and politicalimaginaries, black and
indigenous people are left out,even though they have been
present and contributingcenturies before the birth of
the republic.
That's not uniquely like aCentral America context, but I
(15:24):
think Central America takes itto the next level.
There's literally a, to borrowfrom Michelle Rolfe, right?
There's a particular likeintentional silencing of the
past.
And this is how anti-blacknessand anti-indigeneity remained uh
prevalent, right?
Very pervasive in CentralAmerican nationalism is that
they're literally written out.
They don't exist, right?
(15:45):
And the only time you kind ofhear Garifana folks is like the
United Fruit Company.
Well, Garifana folks have beenin Central America at least 200
years by the time United FruitCompany becomes a presence on
Central America's Caribbeancoast.
SPEAKER_00 (15:58):
You know, one of my reasons for starting strictly
facts is the fact of like, whydon't we know?
And I mean, we as a collective,right?
As Caribbean people, itshouldn't just be us in pockets
knowing our own history.
And so to sort of continue offthis point that you're making of
the shift to Central America orthe, you know, the forced exile
(16:19):
to Central America, because itwasn't by choice.
And I want to reiterate thatpoint.
The Garafuna, you know, areforcibly exiled.
A number of them go to Roatan,an island off Honduras, which in
a very cruel history, like theisland was uninhabitable for a
large part, right?
You know, with the support ofSpain, that helps them
(16:40):
transition to sort of mainlandas well, right?
But then it becomes, as you'resaying, a challenge between the
indigenous populations that werealready in Central America.
So could you help usproblematize that a bit more?
Um, what necessarily takes placeas they are relocating and how
(17:01):
that, you know, maybe thoseproblems are persisting to the
present.
SPEAKER_02 (17:05):
Yeah, no, thank you.
Thank you.
You are making me dig into myhistorian cat.
There's so much work on this.
I also want to like just likeverbally cite, you know, um, the
work of Edmund T.
Gordon, Juliet Hooker, uhCharles Hale, Mark Anderson,
Courtney Desiree Morris, andeven like Garifuna scholars,
(17:27):
right?
Joseph Palacio, Media Miranda.
Like there's this history andreckoning with deeply
understanding that once Garifunafolks are exiled by the British
in 1797 and they arrive toRoatang and they arrive to other
the other Bay Islands ofHonduras and they they kind of
immerse themselves in thesetransgenerational migrations to
Belize, Guatemala, Nicaragua,and mainland Honduras, it has
(17:51):
everything to do with theirnegotiations with Spanish
colonizers.
And I think it's important toalso reckon with the fact that
Garinago folks had multiplecolonizers, were colonized by
the British, were colonized bythe French.
Um, and then their lastcolonizer were the Spanish,
right?
So this is why the majority ofGarifana folks who have not been
(18:13):
intermarried into Creole homes,right, have a Spanish last name.
Um this is like AurelioMartinez, right?
Like the big kind of hugeGarifana musicians, yeah,
they're gonna have palacios,right?
Um, even though they're inBelize, right?
So there's this longer historyabout Spanish colonialism and
the negotiations they did withSpanish colonizers.
And one of the realities aboutthat history is that the British
(18:35):
were still there, that theBritish were also still in
Central America's Caribbeancoast.
So this was a really strategicmove by Garina Ruth to be able
to negotiate with the Spanishbecause they had already been
dealing with the British in St.
Vincent.
There was this allyship thatreally kind of um benefited
obviously a lot more Spanishcolonizers than they would
(18:55):
Garifana folks.
But in fact, that history isreally telling in the present
because one of the ways in whichGarifana activists in Central
America fight for ancestral landrights is reminding mestizos and
reminding Spanish, thedescendants of Spanish
colonizers, we did this treaty.
This is our land, right?
(19:16):
We did this pact with you, therewas this contract, there was
this treaty for land in exchangefor military power, for military
engagement.
And I think it's important tonot like void that history
because I think that historygets silenced incredibly um
frequently in the context ofCentral American history, but
it's a history that also reallytells us about how Spanish
(19:40):
colonialism's anti-Black impulseis strategic, because here you
have this Black Indigenouscommunity who got kicked out of
St.
Vincent because the Britishcouldn't handle their military
power.
Literally, their resistance,their rebellion, right?
Their maronage, right?
And the Spanish use thatmarinage for their advantage,
right?
(20:00):
And in fact, it was Garif andthe folks who really ended up,
you know, fighting against theBritish on Central America's
Caribbean coast, specifically inHonduras, right?
And this is why there was thiskind of physical removal of
British colonizers to the moreuh British Honduras, which is
present-day Belize.
Um, and that history isincredibly important because it
really shapes the politicalimaginaries of the geography and
(20:23):
also the Caribbean coast ofCentral America.
It really highlights the historyof black and indigenous folks in
that space that doesn't getcentered in the dominant
narrative.
One of the persistent politicalimaginaries around being
Garifuna in the hemisphere isthat resistance, right?
Is the knowing that we arewarrior-like people, right?
(20:45):
That we will fight, that we willfight against European
colonialism, that we will fightum for our lives and we will
fight for our culture and ourland.
Because one thing that is reallypersistent is that Garifuna
culture has not stayed intactbecause that's not how culture
works, um, but there's parts ofGaryfuna culture that are
(21:06):
fragmented from St.
Vincent, that are fragmentedfrom Central America, that are
fragmented from the UnitedStates, right?
Um, and my work in particularlooks at those fragmentations in
New York City.
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
I do want to um talk about, as you're talking about
lived and sort of feltimaginaries, I do want to talk
about the meaning of settlementday, right?
Have to name activists likeThomas Vincent Adonimos from
Brazil, who was literally one ofthe pioneering activists saying,
like, we really need to adhereand celebrate this history.
(21:40):
I know you you did it a bit forus a little bit earlier, but
could you talk about really whatsettlement day means for
Geticuna populations?
SPEAKER_02 (21:48):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And I'm so grateful that youbrought that question up,
particularly because it's thesecond chapter of my very much
in progress book manuscript.
Um, Gadita.
Settlement day is incrediblyimportant, and it's incredibly
important for multiple reasons.
And thank you for bringingThomas Vincent Ramos into this
space.
(22:08):
Uh, a phenomenal garifuna man,born in Honduras, raised in
Belize, and I think it'simportant to highlight that,
right?
That it's important to highlightthat in many ways, um, Garifuna
communities, peoples, andcultures and histories are
borderless, right?
When we think about CentralAmerica's Caribbean coast.
And I love the fact that he wasborn in Honduras, particularly
(22:31):
in Puerto Cortes, which isactually very close to Belize
and Guatemala, and his constantmigration between both spaces is
just so telling of how blackfolks have always transcended
borders, right?
And I'm just like, this is aperfect example of how a Black
Indigenous man and communitiestranscend borders, and these
borders don't mean anything,right?
(22:51):
Like in many ways.
So the reason I spend time withGharifana Settlement Day,
because it becomes reallyfertile grounds to think about
the public performances of ouraround Gharifuna.
And particularly, I'm interestedin this idea of arrival and this
idea of arriving as exile,particularly because it's
(23:14):
grounded in this idea ofresistance.
It's grounded in this idea ofbeing marooned.
And being marooned means thatthere's a particular negotiation
with the land, right?
And land and ancestors, right?
So these enactments that havebeen happening since the 80s,
and Belize is actually the firstkind of location where Garifuna
(23:34):
Settlement Day happens in theAmericas.
And the second one is inBrooklyn, New York, which is why
it is incredibly important inthe book manuscript because a
lot of folks don't know that,right?
That a lot of folks don't knowthat Garifana Settlement Day
emerges out of the politicalactivism of a Garifuna Honduran
in Belize who really wanted tohave the Belizean nation state
(23:57):
recognize the culturalcontributions of Garifuna folks.
And in many ways, kind of in areally simplistic terminology
around uh political activism,Garifuna Settlement Day is about
quite literally the politics ofvisibility, right?
It's literally saying we havearrived, we've been present, we
have been present, and we'rereenacting what our ancestors
(24:17):
did in 1797.
And that reenactment has a hugespiritual, intellectual, and
political commitment toGarifunanis, to the Garifuna
diaspora, but also to claimingum ancestral rights to land,
claiming ancestral rights tonation states that were in
non-existent, right?
(24:39):
That there is a history ofGarifuna folks prior to the
nation state.
And this Garifuna Settlement Dayalso allows for a conjuring of
ancestral memory.
You know, this is where I'm likeHartman really gave us what we
needed to have in Venus and 2Xbecause it's like, what does it
mean to literally take embodiedarchives of ancestral memory and
(25:01):
perform it publicly, right?
And perform it, you know, one ofthe things about that
performance is that it's alsonot just a Garifona performance,
right?
That in many ways the gaze isthe nation state, right?
That in the context of CentralAmerica, you know, Garifona
Settlement Day has evolved intothese huge multicultural um
celebrations where the nationstate, the mestizo nation state,
(25:24):
right, can come and say, yes, wehave black people and their
culture is authentic and theirculture is amazing.
Come spend money here.
These are the communities.
And I think one of the obviouslythe origins of that was to honor
and to remember the ancestors,right?
And to make space, right?
And I think Garifuna folks, um,like all Black and Indigenous
folks throughout the diaspora,have been really strategic about
(25:47):
making space and creating space.
And Garifuna Settlement Day isdoing that, right?
It's literally carving andconjuring an ancestral space for
Garifuna folks from yesterday,from today, and for tomorrow,
because particularly Garifanafolks' concerns around culture,
right?
This idea of losing culture, oflosing the language, of losing
the knowledge that the ancestorsbrought with them.
(26:10):
So there's also this kind ofcontemporary push to bring um
younger generations of Garinagointo these performances so they
can remember and honor theirancestors, right?
And what I really love is likefolks are not fact checking
anything, right?
Like there is no, there is noarchival evidence of this and
(26:30):
that, like even the size of theship, even the idea of like what
did the answers just physicallybring with them.
But what I love about GharifanaSettlement Day is that there's a
conjuring of politicalimaginaries that come into that
space.
The historical fact-checking isso irrelevant, so entirely
irrelevant because theperformance of arriving, the
(26:52):
performance of surviving thatarrival, right?
The brutality of that exile, youknow, it wasn't just like a, you
know, that exile was reallyincredibly violent.
It wasn't this kind of, yep,just get on and go.
It was violent getting on andthen getting off, right?
And I think it's important thatum Garifuna Settlement Day
continues to be the space whereGarifuna folks, in the context
(27:12):
of Central America, are able tonegotiate with the nation state
and also create a space fortheir visibility.
Now, Garifuna Settlement Day inNew York City, those are a
different kind of politics,right?
Particularly because there'sjust no physical ancestral land
there to make, right?
To kind of create.
So a lot of the work that I dowhen I'm analyzing Garifuna
(27:33):
Settlement Day in GrandConcourse in the Bronx, right?
In Eastern Parkway in Brooklynor in downtown, you know,
Manhattan or Brooklyn is thisidea of well, what is it about
indigenous blackness in thecompany of African Americans,
with Indians, other Afro-Latinxcommunities that is disrupting
(27:56):
Garifana Settlement Day, right?
There's something about GarifanaSettlement Day as a disruption
to what we normally understandto be indigenous, to be black,
to be Central American, but it'salso a borrowing a lot from
other Black immigrantcommunities, right?
So the West Indian Day Parade,that's entirely Black Caribbean
(28:16):
immigrant labor that we have theEastern Parkway every Labor Day
because of Black Caribbeanimmigrants who wanted to make
sure that their cultureremained, right?
That even though they're in theUnited States, even though
they're in a differentgeography, that they wanted a
space to really venerate andhonor and celebrate their
culture.
So Garifana folks are reallybuilding off of the activism of
(28:39):
West Indians, Puerto Ricans,Dominicans in the New York City
context.
I'm also constantly thinkingabout what is this multicultural
melting pot moment in New York,um, particularly because
Garifana Solomon Day emergesafter David Denkins.
Um and David Dinkins is reallycritical to the visibility that
Garifuna folks get through likebilingual, bilingual education
(29:02):
programs for Garifuna folks.
I mean, remember, like Garifunafolks are migrating from Central
America to the Caribbean coastand they're speaking Spanish,
right?
They're coming intoSpanish-speaking communities in
New York City and New Orleansand LA and Houston.
So there was this moment in the90s where there was this
programming, right?
There's a Garifuna Day in CityHall, right?
There's this kind of um literalformation of creating Garifuna
(29:26):
cultural visibility.
And I'm always wondering what isboth intellectually and
politically at stake.
And I have a couple of answersto that.
Like I have a couple ofwonderings and thinkings.
We can save it for the book.
SPEAKER_01 (29:38):
You don't gotta get it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
I think what you said about settlement day, I do
want to just reinforce because Ithink there are a lot of ways
our histories are told and justlike depreciated in value.
The fact that Settlement Day islike, we're gonna tell y'all
what happened, right?
Um, we're gonna show it.
And, you know, even the factthat when we do quote unquote
(30:05):
have these archives, right, theydon't point us in the way
oftentimes because they weren'twritten by us.
So the fact that we haveSettlement Day as this very
present annual celebration, um,and are just basically like, you
could say that the ship was thissize, but you know, it is what
it is, and we're going to, youknow, relive what is most
(30:27):
beautiful, um, what is most truefor us, I think is really
important.
Yes.
You're bringing up New York, soI've obviously got to do a
discussion of diaspora, right?
I mean, I am a product of thediaspora, so like I'm not
trading diaspora or anything inthe butt think, you know, there
are often problems like braindrain, like um all of these
(30:49):
issues that arise where movementis considered.
And, you know, as a Caribbeanpeople, I think movement,
migration is inherent to who weare, right?
There are pockets of useverywhere around the world.
I remember studying abroad incollege and like finding a
Jamaican in Greece, right?
Like because we move.
(31:10):
How does that impact Yarrafunapopulations today?
Um, you did touch on it a bit,you know, in terms of like
reinforcing histories, but whatare sort of those problems um
and the connections also, as youwere talking about, you know,
with New York?
Um, but you know, even as NicoleRamsey mentioned, um, there are
big Belizean populations inCalifornia as well.
(31:32):
And so how are these pocketscoming together of people?
SPEAKER_02 (31:37):
That is a dissertation question right
there.
Um, you know, a couple of thingscome to mind.
There are already two monographsin the world on garifno folks in
New York.
Um, Sarah England writes anethnography, um, particularly on
first generation Garifna NewYorkers from the 90s, 80s, and
(31:57):
90s.
Um, so she really doesn't paymuch attention to the
communities from the 60s, 70s.
Um, I'm quite literallyinterested in generations that
have already been in the US fortwo to three to four, but she
does a beautiful job on reallyarticulating the transnational
aspect of Garifuna New Yorkers'activism around um notions of
(32:20):
land, of notions of indigenity.
And then Paul ChristopherJohnson writes this other
manuscript on Garifuna religion.
Um, and his kind of huge debateis like essentially trying to
figure out how African isGarifuna religion.
Um, and he obviously even coversthat yes, Garifuna folks are
very African and veryindigenous.
(32:41):
And I'm like, yes, sir.
But I think one of the thingsthat gets left out of both of
those manuscripts and kind ofthe larger history of Garifana
folks in the US is that Garifunafolks are entering the US as
imperial subjects.
They're not leaving CentralAmerica because of a civil war
or a revolution, right?
They're leaving Central Americabecause of anti-blackness.
(33:04):
And they're leaving CentralAmerica because the United Fruit
Company gives them an economicopportunity to leave.
And they're going to NewOrleans, right?
New Orleans is quite literallyan extension of the banana
republic in Central America.
That's an important piece ofhistory that gets left out a
lot, particularly because um NewOrleans, as one of the mechas of
(33:26):
the Black Atlantic world.
I mean, Garifana folks areentering the US South, right?
So Glenn Chambers writes thisamazing recent book on like
essentially black CentralAmericans in New Orleans and how
they're negotiating theirCentral American-ness, their
lapinidad, right?
In that time period, they'reHispanic and their blackness in
New Orleans.
(33:47):
That part of history becomesreally important because New
York is actually a later part inthe migration, right?
That New York actually isn't asum central to the story, right?
It's not the beginning to thestory of the reasonable folks in
the US.
And I really want to be able tocenter New Orleans in a way
that's in conversation with NewYork, because in many ways, the
(34:08):
financial offices and thefinancial structures of the
United Fruit Company were inboth places, right?
They were in New Orleans andthey were in New York.
And the reason I start there isbecause it's important to think
about, you know, to borrow fromthe work of Lada Putnam, what
does it mean to think ofGarifana folks in the company of
other Black communities, right?
So I'm interested in the ways inwhich, in the company of African
(34:32):
Americans, in the company of theSchomburg Center, right?
How does that really shift thediasporic contours of Black
indigenity?
Um, and in particular, I bringSchomburg into the conversation
not only because of the namingof a Black Puerto Rican man, one
of the most important archivesof black culture in the
hemisphere, but it's also aspace that allows for this in
(34:57):
the company of to reallyhighlight, right?
So one tendency that happens inthe body of literature on black
Latinx immigrants is thatthere's this tension with
African Americans, right?
That there's this kind ofcultural tension, right?
This language, linguistictension.
And I think those tensions arelike incredibly real, they
exist, but they're not thehallmark of the relationship.
(35:20):
That at some point, the factthat Garifana folks, second and
third generation, are going toHBCUs, that's not a tension.
That's a falling into USblackness as a form of diasporic
solidarity.
That in many ways, the ways inwhich Latinab is so anti-black
in the US, is that of coursethat Ifana folks are gonna go to
(35:41):
Megar Everest College beforethey go to Bodigua College.
Absolutely, right?
There's a space for Garifunafolks as both Caribbeans, as
Central Americans, as part ofthe Black diaspora.
These tensions exist, but theyat some point, blackness
transcends those tensions,right?
And that these spaces um becomereally important because one of
(36:04):
the earlier activists um withinthe Garifina spaces in the Bronx
and Brooklyn, they're WestIndians, right?
West Indians are modeling toread from the folks what does it
mean to literally talk aboutyour Black ethnicity um in a
space, right?
Um and they really model that.
And it's incredibly importantbecause one of the things that I
discovered in the ChamburgCenter, so you know, I'm like,
(36:26):
you know, finished my qualifyingexams, I'm, you know, did my
dissertation perspectives, andI'm like, okay, I'm going back
home to New York and I'm gonnado this work.
And I go to the Chamber reallyhappy and it's like, yeah, I'm
gonna look for Garifuna stuff.
And they're like, I found likemaybe three things, three
things.
And I actually had to combthrough West Indian archives in
the chamber to actually findGarifuna stuff.
(36:49):
And I was like, this is sointeresting.
It's interesting because I'm notsurprised that Garifuna archives
are in West Indian archives,right?
Um, because of the communitiesthat were already in New York,
right?
But also the communities thatwere already in New York and the
ways in which that they wouldalso allow garifuna folks to
space, right?
So of course I didn't findgarifuna stuff in El Centro de
(37:11):
El Centro de EstudiosPuertorriqueños, right?
Even though Garifuna folks arepart of, right?
Aida Lambert, who's a Garifanawoman from Honduras, in the 60s,
living in East Harlem, she'spart of the founding committee
on El Defile de la Hispanidad.
But I don't find Garifuna stuffin Dominican archives or Puerto
Rican archives, right?
(37:32):
So it's so fascinating to me toalways find it in West Indian
archives because it makescomplete sense.
And even though there's alanguage barrier, it ends up not
being an actual barrier.
Um, and I think it's importantto think about I always love the
idea of in the company ofbecause I want to really move
away from this kind of pervasiveidea of like there's these
tensions, and yeah, there's God,we're human, right?
(37:55):
So there are tensions, butthey're tensions that are really
um rooted in these kind of whitesupremacist ideologies around
ethnicity and all of thesethings.
And I'm just like, yeah, thetension is irrelevant.
Like, let's get to the work.
And the work is blackness,right?
The work in the context ofGuerrifuna folks, it's
indigenous blackness, right?
And they're really articulatinga certain kind of indigeneity
(38:17):
that is of African descent.
SPEAKER_00 (38:19):
So you've heard it here, folks.
Definitions or, you know, thedistinctions between being black
and indigenous, particularly inthis Garafuna context, are null.
Like, you know, there areCaribbean indigenous communities
countered to the sort of youknow overwhelming narrative.
They didn't, they weren't allkilled, you know, from Columbus
(38:41):
and that whole, you know, 1492story.
Um, they are present, they areliving, they are, you know,
existing and breathing andchanging the world still today.
Like this was like probably oneof my favorite episodes.
So thank you so much.
This was so great.
I have to ask my favoritequestion though.
Everybody knows this is myfavorite question of all.
(39:03):
Um, I love music, I loveculture.
Um, that's what I write, that'swhat I study.
What are some of your favoriteexamples of Garrafuna history or
Garrafuna culture throughhistory?
You know, where do we see someof the art just really
highlighting Garrafuna historybeautifully?
And it could be settlement day.
(39:23):
I that was probably me givingyou one, but you know, if you
want to, you can use that one.
I will, I will take it from you.
But um, yes, I I would love tobe like, what is the the one
song or the novel or the filmthat I definitely have to check
out?
SPEAKER_02 (39:38):
So I love Aurelio Martinez.
I deeply respect his activismthrough Garifuna music, through
Garifuna dance.
And there's this song calledAfrica that he writes um at a
time period where there's thesetwo very different garifna
organizations in Honduras.
One is called Ofrane, which isone of the oldest ones,
(39:59):
Organización Fratelán Negra deHonduras, and then Odeco,
Organización de DesarrolloÉtico.
Um and both of them just arethey really both politically
really different, particularlybecause one is much more
interested in like Garifana landfreedom, and then the other one
is more interested in kind ofbeing integrated into Honduran
nation states, right?
(40:19):
So one is always constantly moreinterested in government and one
is more actually interested incommunity-based activism.
Um, and there's not a hierarchy,I'm not putting the binaries of
the dichotomy, but he writesthis song, Afiga, right?
It's a story, it's a song thatreally details the Gary Funa
diaspora from Africa to St.
Vincent, from St.
(40:40):
Vincent to Roatang, fromRowatang to mainland Central
America's Caribbean coast, andthen from Central America's
Caribbean coast to the UnitedStates.
And it's a song that reallycaptures the multiplicity, the
resistance, the rebellion, themarinage.
But it's also a reminder abouthow Africa is at the core of
this, right?
That in many ways Garifana folkscan talk about their
(41:04):
indigeneity, they can talk abouttheir culture, but we can't
forget Africa, right?
That Africa gave us all of thisculture.
And this is where the kind ofnegotiations around indigeneity
and blackness um become reallycomplicated, right?
And they get complicated becausehybridity is kind of the core of
the narrative, but this songreally reminds us that the
(41:25):
motherland is Africa, right?
That in many ways, Garifunafolks wouldn't be Garifuna folks
without Africa.
And it's a gorgeous song, and heit's kind of like a little bit
of a Garifuna ballad.
Um the drumming is really low.
Um, and it's really soothing tohear his words and reclaiming of
Africa as the motherland ofGarifuna folks.
SPEAKER_00 (41:45):
Boyago, stay tuned for Strictly Fact Sounds, where
we connect our history to popculture.
For this Strictly Fact Sounds,what better way to pair the
knowledge and resources Dr.
Lopez Ora shared with us thanwith two documentaries?
Filmmaker Andrea Leland hasdeveloped two great
documentaries on the Garrafuna.
(42:07):
The first entitled The GarrafunaJourney Historicizes the Culture
and Beliefs through Food, Dance,Music, and Spirituality.
And her more recent film,Yorame, which means Homeland,
was released in 2013.
Much like our episode today, thecompanion film recounts the
lesser-known history of theIndigenous community in St.
(42:28):
Vincent and their story ofresistance, repair, and memory.
Check out both online from ourStrictly Facts Syllabus now.
Thank you so much for joining meon Strictly Facts Today.
This was such a generativeconversation.
It was so great talking withyou, Dr.
Lopez Oro.
(42:49):
I hope the listeners enjoyedthis.
We'll have links to all of thereadings and you know,
activists, et cetera, that wementioned in this episode on our
Strictly Facts Syllabus online.
And we hope you enjoyed thisepisode, everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (43:03):
Thank you.
Appreciate y'all.
SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
Thanks for tuning in to Strictly Facts.
Visit strictlyfactspodcast.comfor more information from each
episode.
Follow us at Strictly Facts Podon Instagram and Facebook and at
StrictlyFacts PD on Twitter.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a Guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, Alexandra Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Great talking.
(00:21):
Hello everyone, and welcome backto another episode of Strictly
Facts, the Guide to CaribbeanHistory and Culture.
In today's episode, we'refollowing up on a very necessary
history that we briefly touchedupon in our conversation on
Belize.
Oftentimes, in discussions ofrace and ethnicity in the
Caribbean in general, we tend tofocus on black populations,
(00:42):
oftentimes the descendants ofenslaved Africans, and
additionally Asian populations,you know, usually from India or
China, descendants of indenturedservants.
But less often do we reallyconsider indigenous communities
like the Tayina or the Arawak,especially in the present moment
in the fact that, contrary topopular belief, indigenous
(01:02):
communities still exist in theCaribbean today.
Joining us today to chat aboutindigenous Caribbean communities
and the long overshadowedhistory of one particular
community, the Garafuna, is Dr.
Pablo José Lopez Oro.
Dr.
Oro, thank you so much forjoining Strictly Facts today.
Why don't you begin by tellingus a bit about yourself and how
(01:24):
you became passionate aboutstudying Indigenous Caribbean
communities like the Garafuna?
SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm incredibly honored andhumbled to be in your amazing
company.
All the love for your podcast.
I'm incredibly grateful to bepart of this conversation.
So, um, where did it all kind ofstart?
So, Garifuna folks are BlackIndigenous community from St.
Vincent, whose history ofmarunage, see marunaje in St.
(01:52):
Vincent and their eventual exilefrom British colonial powers in
1797, landom in CentralAmerica's Caribbean coast,
particularly the Bay Islands ofHonduras.
And then there's mainlandmigration to Belize, Guatemala,
mainland Honduras, andNicaragua.
I am a third-generation BrooklynKnight of Garifana-Honduran
(02:13):
descent.
I'm really particular about thethird generation Brooklyn
Knight, particularly because mypaternal line, which is from
Dangriga, Belize, migrates toNew York City, specifically
Harlem, in 1962, which reallydetails a larger hemispheric
movement of Black Indigenouscommunities, specifically
Garifana folks have been in theUS, and particularly the US
(02:36):
South, due to their labor withthe United Fruit Company, have
been in the US since the 1950s.
And this is a community thatremains slightly understudied,
but also simultaneously reallystudied.
So there's this interesting kindof scholarly conundrum around
garifuna folks, particularlybecause garifuna folks, as Black
(02:58):
indigenous peoples, um, kind ofreally create this scholarly
puzzle for particularly foranthropologists, right?
So there's a ton of ethnographicresearch on Garifuna folks in
Central America.
There isn't enough scholarshipon Garifuna folks in the US.
So this is where my work ismaking an intervention and
contribution to the body ofscholarship on Black diaspora
(03:20):
studies and hopefully on Blackindigenous studies, right?
To kind of think about well,what does it mean to start
considering peoples of Africandescent in the Americas,
particularly uh survivors of theMiddle Passage and their
descendants as indigenous to theAmericas?
And Garifuna folks really modelto us the possibilities of
indigenous blackness in reallygenitive ways.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
It's so funny that you said that because you jump
right in almost to my firstquestion.
One that we touched a bit uponin my discussion on the Maroons
in Jamaica as well.
The Garifuna, in our particulardiscussion today, are
descendants of, as youmentioned, indigenous
communities, um, whether that bethe Arawak or the Kalingo, as
(04:04):
well as enslaved Africans.
Um could you walk us a bitthrough what is known about this
early history and the connectionbetween Black and Indigenous
groups, you know, in that sortof 17th, 18th century period?
SPEAKER_02 (04:17):
Absolutely.
Um, so in terms of the Garifunacontext, right, a lot of the
collective memory, right?
So I turned to, you know, tokind of think about even
Hartman's work around thearchive, right?
There is a void in the archive,right?
Um, and Mark Anderson at theUniversity of California, Santa
Cruz really does this reallyphenomenal work of kind of
teasing out um British archivesto kind of get a sense of, well,
(04:41):
you know, Garifuna folks werecalled black Caribs.
There was a moments of YellowCaribs, Red Caribs in St.
Vincent.
But the collective memory thatGarifuna folks have throughout
the diaspora is that we aredescendants of shipwrecked
slaves, right?
Um, that a lot of our collectivenostalgia around ancestry in St.
Vincent is about a certain kindof uh fugitive freedom, right?
(05:04):
It's about a simaronaje, uh amaronage that is really built on
being shipwrecked slaves, butalso Arawak Arab peoples, right?
And this hybridity reallyinforms um our political
subjectivity.
It really informs the wayGarifuna folks negotiate 21st
century politics in CentralAmerica around land rights, land
(05:29):
titles, uh, particularly when umGarifuna activists refer to
Central America's Caribbeancoast as terrenos ancestrales,
right?
Ancestral territories, and whatdoes it mean for Black
Indigenous people to make land,to create land, and to construct
land as ancestral, um, which isactually quite not unique to
(05:49):
Garifuna folks, right?
Um, black Colombians, I'mthinking particularly around the
labor and political activism ofFrancia Marquez, where she talks
about her community in Colombiafrom the 15th, 16th century as
being built by enslavedAfricans, right?
That this is her ancestral land,right?
That even though Africa is thishomeland, that Colombia, right,
(06:10):
La Toma Colombia is herancestral land.
And in fact, black folksthroughout Latin America and the
Caribbean have used land inreally important ways to
negotiate their not only theirblackness, but their rights in
that space, um, especiallywithin nations that deny their
existence and and particularlyerase their existence to the
(06:30):
building of the nation state.
One thing about Garifona folksin particular, about this
collective memory about beingshipwrecked, is that there's
this um turn to culture, right?
So there's this, you know,choreographed problematic
negotiation when it comes toshipwreck slaveness, right?
Because there's also adistancing to the histories of
(06:52):
plantation life.
There's also a distancing toslavery that I'm not really
particularly convinced yet thatthat distancing does much, if
any, if that makes sense, right?
Like I think that distancing isdone to also say, well, this is
why our culture has stayedintact.
And I'm not really certain thatthat is actually the cause,
right?
And I think there's somethingparticularly interesting about
(07:14):
the collective history aroundmarunage, self-governance, um,
particularly on the island ofSt.
Vincent, that allows for thispolitical imaginary to become
really expansive, right?
Whether it's archivallyfact-checked or not.
Um, and in fact, my work isreally much more interested in
political imaginations, right?
(07:34):
So thinking about this, eventhis idea of Garifuna's
settlement day in CentralAmerica, right?
So I'm not interested in whetherthe archive can prove what
actually happened when Garifunafolks were exiled to Central
America's Caribbean coast.
What I'm actually reallyinterested is how Garifuna folks
right now use that collectivememory, that social memory of
(07:55):
the arrival to Central Americaas a position of freedom, right?
As a position of fugitivegeographies, of maroon
geographies, right?
And I think in particular,what's really interesting in the
case of Garifuna folks is thatin all of the nation states that
Garifana folks reside and liveand thrive in, their
racialization and interpolationas Black people really questions
(08:17):
their indigeneity because we arewe're still in this 21st century
moment where we compartmentalizeindigenous people and black
people as separate, right?
As in mutually exclusive fromeach other.
And we don't really reckon withthe histories that are quite
literally at the intersectionsof each other, right?
Um Garifana folks really modelto us what does it mean to
(08:38):
actually think and engage on thepolitical histories of living
and breathing Black Indigenousfolks, right?
Who also are called to performtheir indigeneity in really
different ways, right?
And who are called to reallyenact indigeneity because their
blackness, right, and theirblack bodies are still described
as non-indigenous.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
I want us to take a step back because I think a lot
of what you got to, I want tostill get to.
But for those who may not befamiliar with Getarfuna's
history, you know, we've jumpedfrom St.
Vincent to Central America toNew York to, you know, the
diaspora.
But could you walk us a bitthrough concretely what happens
(09:21):
particularly in in St.
Vincent that forces this exileabroad to, you know, the Central
American coast and maybe whatlens to, you know, the first and
second Caribbears in the 18thcentury, et cetera?
SPEAKER_02 (09:35):
Absolutely.
So what's happening in St.
Vincent is that here you havethe emergence of Garifano
peoples and they'reself-governed, right?
They're constantly in battlewith uh British and French
colonial powers in St.
Vincent, and they're verysuccessful, right?
And they're actually um in thecolonial records, they're seen
as these really hostile,warrior-like Africans, right?
(09:56):
They're literally understood asthese constant militant
enslavement resisting Europeancolonial rule, and it actually
creates this very um importanthistory around military.
Um, there is this uh Garifunachief, um, which is adorned and
loved and venerated, JosephSatuye, um, who is understood to
(10:18):
have fought against the Britishand won and was really
successful.
And there's actually there's areally fascinating story behind
Satouye and his wife Baruda.
Um, Baruda was uh one ofSatouye's wives, and essentially
one of the kind of politicalimaginaries around that story is
that uh there's cross-dressing.
(10:38):
One of the military strategiesagainst uh the British and the
French was to have the soldierscross-dress.
So the men were in women attire,and the military didn't expect.
So it's this big moment whereBaruda says, and I'm gonna say
it in Spanish because the wayit's kind of collectively said
and memorialized is that um sivos no te pones los pantalones,
(11:02):
yo me pongo los pantalones,right?
So if you don't put your pantson, I'll put them on, right?
And this is like kind of theoral history that has kind of
transgenerationally passed on.
And it's actually really tellingabout the gender politics,
right?
It's really telling, um,particularly because Garyfuna
folks are a matrilineal society,right?
So women are not simply justkind of these placeholders on
(11:23):
the economic labor division.
Like literally, women are theancestral connection, the
landowners, right?
They're the ones that have umancestral knowledge that is
passed on to women.
The matrilineal is beyondeconomics, right?
It's beyond the labor division.
It's quite literally in the veryfabric of the entire culture.
(11:43):
So, because of that matrilinealpractice and custom and
tradition, this narrativeactually is really informative,
right?
It really tells us that Garifunawomen were at the forefront of
the military prowls, right?
The forefront of military geniuswhen it comes to how Garifuna
folks were able to battleagainst the British and the
French.
Um, so this moment, this kind ofscene around the Carib Wars, um,
(12:08):
if we were to like Garifunizeit, um, is to really actually
understand that Garifuna womengave that military intelligence
to Garifuna men.
Um, and it's actually a reallypowerful oral history that
remains, but still slightly ontowed because matrilineal
society and culture doesn'tnecessarily mean that massage
noir doesn't exist, thatpatriarchy is very much still
(12:29):
intact, even though there's amatrilineal um culture and
society.
So I think it's important for meto like pinpoint that a little
bit.
But also what's happening herein the exile in St.
Vincent is that Garifana folksaren't exile because they just
don't succumb to to Europeancolonial forces.
And and the the treaty, like theactual treaty between Garifana
(12:51):
folks and the British was like,you gotta go, right?
You gotta go.
Uh the British had a lot ofplans with St.
Vincent.
They had imagined St.
Vincent to be another pearl ofthe West Indies, and they just
had to literally take out theBlack Caribs, right?
And at that point, Garifunafolks are in the archive, are
being called Black Caribs.
Once again, Mark Anderson writeshis gorgeous piece for the
(13:12):
Journal of TransformingAnthropology, where he's like,
there's these different racialcategorizations that's happening
in the archives.
There's Red Caribs, there'syellow Caribs, there's Black
Caribs, and the Garifuna folks,Garinagu, are the Black Caribs,
and they're the most resistingones, right?
So there's this collectivememory is really telling to the
ideas of like survival andresistance and perseverance,
(13:35):
right, in the face of Europeancolonization, um, which really
kind of marks the diaspora, theGarifuna diaspora, right?
Because one of the big momentsin the arrival, it's a rival of
exile, right?
It's a rival of British colonialforces, just taking Garifuna
folks off of St.
Vincent.
And St.
Vincent is quite literally theancestral homeland of Garinagu.
(13:56):
And Garinagu is the pluralformation of Garifuna.
So I'll go back and forthbecause it's like in my brain,
it makes more sense to like it'sall of us.
So Garinagu, um, and Garifuna iskind of just like the
descriptive adjective of theculture and music, but that
exile is really important inCentral America because in that
exile, you know, Garifuna folksare arriving to a Central
(14:18):
American Caribbean coast wherethere are already other black
folks, where there are Creole,Mosquito, Linca, where there are
other indigenous communities aswell, who are also resisting
European colonialism, right?
So this long history of Blackand Indigenous resistance on
Central America's Caribbeancoast, Garifuna folks are
walking into it in 1797.
(14:40):
Um and it becomes a reallyimportant marker because that's
happening before the wars ofindependence of 1821.
And that's an important datebecause that means Garifuna
folks and Creole folks andMosquito folks and Linca folks,
they're fighting in these warsof independence.
But they don't get to benarrated into that national
(15:01):
historical project, right?
They're certainly left outbecause of their blackness and
indigeneity.
So when we look at CentralAmerica's kind of nationalist
ideologies and politicalimaginaries, black and
indigenous people are left out,even though they have been
present and contributingcenturies before the birth of
the republic.
That's not uniquely like aCentral America context, but I
(15:24):
think Central America takes itto the next level.
There's literally a, to borrowfrom Michelle Rolfe, right?
There's a particular likeintentional silencing of the
past.
And this is how anti-blacknessand anti-indigeneity remained uh
prevalent, right?
Very pervasive in CentralAmerican nationalism is that
they're literally written out.
They don't exist, right?
(15:45):
And the only time you kind ofhear Garifana folks is like the
United Fruit Company.
Well, Garifana folks have beenin Central America at least 200
years by the time United FruitCompany becomes a presence on
Central America's Caribbeancoast.
SPEAKER_00 (15:58):
You know, one of my reasons for starting strictly
facts is the fact of like, whydon't we know?
And I mean, we as a collective,right?
As Caribbean people, itshouldn't just be us in pockets
knowing our own history.
And so to sort of continue offthis point that you're making of
the shift to Central America orthe, you know, the forced exile
(16:19):
to Central America, because itwasn't by choice.
And I want to reiterate thatpoint.
The Garafuna, you know, areforcibly exiled.
A number of them go to Roatan,an island off Honduras, which in
a very cruel history, like theisland was uninhabitable for a
large part, right?
You know, with the support ofSpain, that helps them
(16:40):
transition to sort of mainlandas well, right?
But then it becomes, as you'resaying, a challenge between the
indigenous populations that werealready in Central America.
So could you help usproblematize that a bit more?
Um, what necessarily takes placeas they are relocating and how
(17:01):
that, you know, maybe thoseproblems are persisting to the
present.
SPEAKER_02 (17:05):
Yeah, no, thank you.
Thank you.
You are making me dig into myhistorian cat.
There's so much work on this.
I also want to like just likeverbally cite, you know, um, the
work of Edmund T.
Gordon, Juliet Hooker, uhCharles Hale, Mark Anderson,
Courtney Desiree Morris, andeven like Garifuna scholars,
(17:27):
right?
Joseph Palacio, Media Miranda.
Like there's this history andreckoning with deeply
understanding that once Garifunafolks are exiled by the British
in 1797 and they arrive toRoatang and they arrive to other
the other Bay Islands ofHonduras and they they kind of
immerse themselves in thesetransgenerational migrations to
Belize, Guatemala, Nicaragua,and mainland Honduras, it has
(17:51):
everything to do with theirnegotiations with Spanish
colonizers.
And I think it's important toalso reckon with the fact that
Garinago folks had multiplecolonizers, were colonized by
the British, were colonized bythe French.
Um, and then their lastcolonizer were the Spanish,
right?
So this is why the majority ofGarifana folks who have not been
(18:13):
intermarried into Creole homes,right, have a Spanish last name.
Um this is like AurelioMartinez, right?
Like the big kind of hugeGarifana musicians, yeah,
they're gonna have palacios,right?
Um, even though they're inBelize, right?
So there's this longer historyabout Spanish colonialism and
the negotiations they did withSpanish colonizers.
And one of the realities aboutthat history is that the British
(18:35):
were still there, that theBritish were also still in
Central America's Caribbeancoast.
So this was a really strategicmove by Garina Ruth to be able
to negotiate with the Spanishbecause they had already been
dealing with the British in St.
Vincent.
There was this allyship thatreally kind of um benefited
obviously a lot more Spanishcolonizers than they would
(18:55):
Garifana folks.
But in fact, that history isreally telling in the present
because one of the ways in whichGarifana activists in Central
America fight for ancestral landrights is reminding mestizos and
reminding Spanish, thedescendants of Spanish
colonizers, we did this treaty.
This is our land, right?
(19:16):
We did this pact with you, therewas this contract, there was
this treaty for land in exchangefor military power, for military
engagement.
And I think it's important tonot like void that history
because I think that historygets silenced incredibly um
frequently in the context ofCentral American history, but
it's a history that also reallytells us about how Spanish
(19:40):
colonialism's anti-Black impulseis strategic, because here you
have this Black Indigenouscommunity who got kicked out of
St.
Vincent because the Britishcouldn't handle their military
power.
Literally, their resistance,their rebellion, right?
Their maronage, right?
And the Spanish use thatmarinage for their advantage,
right?
(20:00):
And in fact, it was Garif andthe folks who really ended up,
you know, fighting against theBritish on Central America's
Caribbean coast, specifically inHonduras, right?
And this is why there was thiskind of physical removal of
British colonizers to the moreuh British Honduras, which is
present-day Belize.
Um, and that history isincredibly important because it
really shapes the politicalimaginaries of the geography and
(20:23):
also the Caribbean coast ofCentral America.
It really highlights the historyof black and indigenous folks in
that space that doesn't getcentered in the dominant
narrative.
One of the persistent politicalimaginaries around being
Garifuna in the hemisphere isthat resistance, right?
Is the knowing that we arewarrior-like people, right?
(20:45):
That we will fight, that we willfight against European
colonialism, that we will fightum for our lives and we will
fight for our culture and ourland.
Because one thing that is reallypersistent is that Garifuna
culture has not stayed intactbecause that's not how culture
works, um, but there's parts ofGaryfuna culture that are
(21:06):
fragmented from St.
Vincent, that are fragmentedfrom Central America, that are
fragmented from the UnitedStates, right?
Um, and my work in particularlooks at those fragmentations in
New York City.
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
I do want to um talk about, as you're talking about
lived and sort of feltimaginaries, I do want to talk
about the meaning of settlementday, right?
Have to name activists likeThomas Vincent Adonimos from
Brazil, who was literally one ofthe pioneering activists saying,
like, we really need to adhereand celebrate this history.
(21:40):
I know you you did it a bit forus a little bit earlier, but
could you talk about really whatsettlement day means for
Geticuna populations?
SPEAKER_02 (21:48):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And I'm so grateful that youbrought that question up,
particularly because it's thesecond chapter of my very much
in progress book manuscript.
Um, Gadita.
Settlement day is incrediblyimportant, and it's incredibly
important for multiple reasons.
And thank you for bringingThomas Vincent Ramos into this
space.
(22:08):
Uh, a phenomenal garifuna man,born in Honduras, raised in
Belize, and I think it'simportant to highlight that,
right?
That it's important to highlightthat in many ways, um, Garifuna
communities, peoples, andcultures and histories are
borderless, right?
When we think about CentralAmerica's Caribbean coast.
And I love the fact that he wasborn in Honduras, particularly
(22:31):
in Puerto Cortes, which isactually very close to Belize
and Guatemala, and his constantmigration between both spaces is
just so telling of how blackfolks have always transcended
borders, right?
And I'm just like, this is aperfect example of how a Black
Indigenous man and communitiestranscend borders, and these
borders don't mean anything,right?
(22:51):
Like in many ways.
So the reason I spend time withGharifana Settlement Day,
because it becomes reallyfertile grounds to think about
the public performances of ouraround Gharifuna.
And particularly, I'm interestedin this idea of arrival and this
idea of arriving as exile,particularly because it's
(23:14):
grounded in this idea ofresistance.
It's grounded in this idea ofbeing marooned.
And being marooned means thatthere's a particular negotiation
with the land, right?
And land and ancestors, right?
So these enactments that havebeen happening since the 80s,
and Belize is actually the firstkind of location where Garifuna
(23:34):
Settlement Day happens in theAmericas.
And the second one is inBrooklyn, New York, which is why
it is incredibly important inthe book manuscript because a
lot of folks don't know that,right?
That a lot of folks don't knowthat Garifana Settlement Day
emerges out of the politicalactivism of a Garifuna Honduran
in Belize who really wanted tohave the Belizean nation state
(23:57):
recognize the culturalcontributions of Garifuna folks.
And in many ways, kind of in areally simplistic terminology
around uh political activism,Garifuna Settlement Day is about
quite literally the politics ofvisibility, right?
It's literally saying we havearrived, we've been present, we
have been present, and we'rereenacting what our ancestors
(24:17):
did in 1797.
And that reenactment has a hugespiritual, intellectual, and
political commitment toGarifunanis, to the Garifuna
diaspora, but also to claimingum ancestral rights to land,
claiming ancestral rights tonation states that were in
non-existent, right?
(24:39):
That there is a history ofGarifuna folks prior to the
nation state.
And this Garifuna Settlement Dayalso allows for a conjuring of
ancestral memory.
You know, this is where I'm likeHartman really gave us what we
needed to have in Venus and 2Xbecause it's like, what does it
mean to literally take embodiedarchives of ancestral memory and
(25:01):
perform it publicly, right?
And perform it, you know, one ofthe things about that
performance is that it's alsonot just a Garifona performance,
right?
That in many ways the gaze isthe nation state, right?
That in the context of CentralAmerica, you know, Garifona
Settlement Day has evolved intothese huge multicultural um
celebrations where the nationstate, the mestizo nation state,
(25:24):
right, can come and say, yes, wehave black people and their
culture is authentic and theirculture is amazing.
Come spend money here.
These are the communities.
And I think one of the obviouslythe origins of that was to honor
and to remember the ancestors,right?
And to make space, right?
And I think Garifuna folks, um,like all Black and Indigenous
folks throughout the diaspora,have been really strategic about
(25:47):
making space and creating space.
And Garifuna Settlement Day isdoing that, right?
It's literally carving andconjuring an ancestral space for
Garifuna folks from yesterday,from today, and for tomorrow,
because particularly Garifanafolks' concerns around culture,
right?
This idea of losing culture, oflosing the language, of losing
the knowledge that the ancestorsbrought with them.
(26:10):
So there's also this kind ofcontemporary push to bring um
younger generations of Garinagointo these performances so they
can remember and honor theirancestors, right?
And what I really love is likefolks are not fact checking
anything, right?
Like there is no, there is noarchival evidence of this and
(26:30):
that, like even the size of theship, even the idea of like what
did the answers just physicallybring with them.
But what I love about GharifanaSettlement Day is that there's a
conjuring of politicalimaginaries that come into that
space.
The historical fact-checking isso irrelevant, so entirely
irrelevant because theperformance of arriving, the
(26:52):
performance of surviving thatarrival, right?
The brutality of that exile, youknow, it wasn't just like a, you
know, that exile was reallyincredibly violent.
It wasn't this kind of, yep,just get on and go.
It was violent getting on andthen getting off, right?
And I think it's important thatum Garifuna Settlement Day
continues to be the space whereGarifuna folks, in the context
(27:12):
of Central America, are able tonegotiate with the nation state
and also create a space fortheir visibility.
Now, Garifuna Settlement Day inNew York City, those are a
different kind of politics,right?
Particularly because there'sjust no physical ancestral land
there to make, right?
To kind of create.
So a lot of the work that I dowhen I'm analyzing Garifuna
(27:33):
Settlement Day in GrandConcourse in the Bronx, right?
In Eastern Parkway in Brooklynor in downtown, you know,
Manhattan or Brooklyn is thisidea of well, what is it about
indigenous blackness in thecompany of African Americans,
with Indians, other Afro-Latinxcommunities that is disrupting
(27:56):
Garifana Settlement Day, right?
There's something about GarifanaSettlement Day as a disruption
to what we normally understandto be indigenous, to be black,
to be Central American, but it'salso a borrowing a lot from
other Black immigrantcommunities, right?
So the West Indian Day Parade,that's entirely Black Caribbean
(28:16):
immigrant labor that we have theEastern Parkway every Labor Day
because of Black Caribbeanimmigrants who wanted to make
sure that their cultureremained, right?
That even though they're in theUnited States, even though
they're in a differentgeography, that they wanted a
space to really venerate andhonor and celebrate their
culture.
So Garifana folks are reallybuilding off of the activism of
(28:39):
West Indians, Puerto Ricans,Dominicans in the New York City
context.
I'm also constantly thinkingabout what is this multicultural
melting pot moment in New York,um, particularly because
Garifana Solomon Day emergesafter David Denkins.
Um and David Dinkins is reallycritical to the visibility that
Garifuna folks get through likebilingual, bilingual education
(29:02):
programs for Garifuna folks.
I mean, remember, like Garifunafolks are migrating from Central
America to the Caribbean coastand they're speaking Spanish,
right?
They're coming intoSpanish-speaking communities in
New York City and New Orleansand LA and Houston.
So there was this moment in the90s where there was this
programming, right?
There's a Garifuna Day in CityHall, right?
There's this kind of um literalformation of creating Garifuna
(29:26):
cultural visibility.
And I'm always wondering what isboth intellectually and
politically at stake.
And I have a couple of answersto that.
Like I have a couple ofwonderings and thinkings.
We can save it for the book.
SPEAKER_01 (29:38):
You don't gotta get it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
I think what you said about settlement day, I do
want to just reinforce because Ithink there are a lot of ways
our histories are told and justlike depreciated in value.
The fact that Settlement Day islike, we're gonna tell y'all
what happened, right?
Um, we're gonna show it.
And, you know, even the factthat when we do quote unquote
(30:05):
have these archives, right, theydon't point us in the way
oftentimes because they weren'twritten by us.
So the fact that we haveSettlement Day as this very
present annual celebration, um,and are just basically like, you
could say that the ship was thissize, but you know, it is what
it is, and we're going to, youknow, relive what is most
(30:27):
beautiful, um, what is most truefor us, I think is really
important.
Yes.
You're bringing up New York, soI've obviously got to do a
discussion of diaspora, right?
I mean, I am a product of thediaspora, so like I'm not
trading diaspora or anything inthe butt think, you know, there
are often problems like braindrain, like um all of these
(30:49):
issues that arise where movementis considered.
And, you know, as a Caribbeanpeople, I think movement,
migration is inherent to who weare, right?
There are pockets of useverywhere around the world.
I remember studying abroad incollege and like finding a
Jamaican in Greece, right?
Like because we move.
(31:10):
How does that impact Yarrafunapopulations today?
Um, you did touch on it a bit,you know, in terms of like
reinforcing histories, but whatare sort of those problems um
and the connections also, as youwere talking about, you know,
with New York?
Um, but you know, even as NicoleRamsey mentioned, um, there are
big Belizean populations inCalifornia as well.
(31:32):
And so how are these pocketscoming together of people?
SPEAKER_02 (31:37):
That is a dissertation question right
there.
Um, you know, a couple of thingscome to mind.
There are already two monographsin the world on garifno folks in
New York.
Um, Sarah England writes anethnography, um, particularly on
first generation Garifna NewYorkers from the 90s, 80s, and
(31:57):
90s.
Um, so she really doesn't paymuch attention to the
communities from the 60s, 70s.
Um, I'm quite literallyinterested in generations that
have already been in the US fortwo to three to four, but she
does a beautiful job on reallyarticulating the transnational
aspect of Garifuna New Yorkers'activism around um notions of
(32:20):
land, of notions of indigenity.
And then Paul ChristopherJohnson writes this other
manuscript on Garifuna religion.
Um, and his kind of huge debateis like essentially trying to
figure out how African isGarifuna religion.
Um, and he obviously even coversthat yes, Garifuna folks are
very African and veryindigenous.
(32:41):
And I'm like, yes, sir.
But I think one of the thingsthat gets left out of both of
those manuscripts and kind ofthe larger history of Garifana
folks in the US is that Garifunafolks are entering the US as
imperial subjects.
They're not leaving CentralAmerica because of a civil war
or a revolution, right?
They're leaving Central Americabecause of anti-blackness.
(33:04):
And they're leaving CentralAmerica because the United Fruit
Company gives them an economicopportunity to leave.
And they're going to NewOrleans, right?
New Orleans is quite literallyan extension of the banana
republic in Central America.
That's an important piece ofhistory that gets left out a
lot, particularly because um NewOrleans, as one of the mechas of
(33:26):
the Black Atlantic world.
I mean, Garifana folks areentering the US South, right?
So Glenn Chambers writes thisamazing recent book on like
essentially black CentralAmericans in New Orleans and how
they're negotiating theirCentral American-ness, their
lapinidad, right?
In that time period, they'reHispanic and their blackness in
New Orleans.
(33:47):
That part of history becomesreally important because New
York is actually a later part inthe migration, right?
That New York actually isn't asum central to the story, right?
It's not the beginning to thestory of the reasonable folks in
the US.
And I really want to be able tocenter New Orleans in a way
that's in conversation with NewYork, because in many ways, the
(34:08):
financial offices and thefinancial structures of the
United Fruit Company were inboth places, right?
They were in New Orleans andthey were in New York.
And the reason I start there isbecause it's important to think
about, you know, to borrow fromthe work of Lada Putnam, what
does it mean to think ofGarifana folks in the company of
other Black communities, right?
So I'm interested in the ways inwhich, in the company of African
(34:32):
Americans, in the company of theSchomburg Center, right?
How does that really shift thediasporic contours of Black
indigenity?
Um, and in particular, I bringSchomburg into the conversation
not only because of the namingof a Black Puerto Rican man, one
of the most important archivesof black culture in the
hemisphere, but it's also aspace that allows for this in
(34:57):
the company of to reallyhighlight, right?
So one tendency that happens inthe body of literature on black
Latinx immigrants is thatthere's this tension with
African Americans, right?
That there's this kind ofcultural tension, right?
This language, linguistictension.
And I think those tensions arelike incredibly real, they
exist, but they're not thehallmark of the relationship.
(35:20):
That at some point, the factthat Garifana folks, second and
third generation, are going toHBCUs, that's not a tension.
That's a falling into USblackness as a form of diasporic
solidarity.
That in many ways, the ways inwhich Latinab is so anti-black
in the US, is that of coursethat Ifana folks are gonna go to
(35:41):
Megar Everest College beforethey go to Bodigua College.
Absolutely, right?
There's a space for Garifunafolks as both Caribbeans, as
Central Americans, as part ofthe Black diaspora.
These tensions exist, but theyat some point, blackness
transcends those tensions,right?
And that these spaces um becomereally important because one of
(36:04):
the earlier activists um withinthe Garifina spaces in the Bronx
and Brooklyn, they're WestIndians, right?
West Indians are modeling toread from the folks what does it
mean to literally talk aboutyour Black ethnicity um in a
space, right?
Um and they really model that.
And it's incredibly importantbecause one of the things that I
discovered in the ChamburgCenter, so you know, I'm like,
(36:26):
you know, finished my qualifyingexams, I'm, you know, did my
dissertation perspectives, andI'm like, okay, I'm going back
home to New York and I'm gonnado this work.
And I go to the Chamber reallyhappy and it's like, yeah, I'm
gonna look for Garifuna stuff.
And they're like, I found likemaybe three things, three
things.
And I actually had to combthrough West Indian archives in
the chamber to actually findGarifuna stuff.
(36:49):
And I was like, this is sointeresting.
It's interesting because I'm notsurprised that Garifuna archives
are in West Indian archives,right?
Um, because of the communitiesthat were already in New York,
right?
But also the communities thatwere already in New York and the
ways in which that they wouldalso allow garifuna folks to
space, right?
So of course I didn't findgarifuna stuff in El Centro de
(37:11):
El Centro de EstudiosPuertorriqueños, right?
Even though Garifuna folks arepart of, right?
Aida Lambert, who's a Garifanawoman from Honduras, in the 60s,
living in East Harlem, she'spart of the founding committee
on El Defile de la Hispanidad.
But I don't find Garifuna stuffin Dominican archives or Puerto
Rican archives, right?
(37:32):
So it's so fascinating to me toalways find it in West Indian
archives because it makescomplete sense.
And even though there's alanguage barrier, it ends up not
being an actual barrier.
Um, and I think it's importantto think about I always love the
idea of in the company ofbecause I want to really move
away from this kind of pervasiveidea of like there's these
tensions, and yeah, there's God,we're human, right?
(37:55):
So there are tensions, butthey're tensions that are really
um rooted in these kind of whitesupremacist ideologies around
ethnicity and all of thesethings.
And I'm just like, yeah, thetension is irrelevant.
Like, let's get to the work.
And the work is blackness,right?
The work in the context ofGuerrifuna folks, it's
indigenous blackness, right?
And they're really articulatinga certain kind of indigeneity
(38:17):
that is of African descent.
SPEAKER_00 (38:19):
So you've heard it here, folks.
Definitions or, you know, thedistinctions between being black
and indigenous, particularly inthis Garafuna context, are null.
Like, you know, there areCaribbean indigenous communities
countered to the sort of youknow overwhelming narrative.
They didn't, they weren't allkilled, you know, from Columbus
(38:41):
and that whole, you know, 1492story.
Um, they are present, they areliving, they are, you know,
existing and breathing andchanging the world still today.
Like this was like probably oneof my favorite episodes.
So thank you so much.
This was so great.
I have to ask my favoritequestion though.
Everybody knows this is myfavorite question of all.
(39:03):
Um, I love music, I loveculture.
Um, that's what I write, that'swhat I study.
What are some of your favoriteexamples of Garrafuna history or
Garrafuna culture throughhistory?
You know, where do we see someof the art just really
highlighting Garrafuna historybeautifully?
And it could be settlement day.
(39:23):
I that was probably me givingyou one, but you know, if you
want to, you can use that one.
I will, I will take it from you.
But um, yes, I I would love tobe like, what is the the one
song or the novel or the filmthat I definitely have to check
out?
SPEAKER_02 (39:38):
So I love Aurelio Martinez.
I deeply respect his activismthrough Garifuna music, through
Garifuna dance.
And there's this song calledAfrica that he writes um at a
time period where there's thesetwo very different garifna
organizations in Honduras.
One is called Ofrane, which isone of the oldest ones,
(39:59):
Organización Fratelán Negra deHonduras, and then Odeco,
Organización de DesarrolloÉtico.
Um and both of them just arethey really both politically
really different, particularlybecause one is much more
interested in like Garifana landfreedom, and then the other one
is more interested in kind ofbeing integrated into Honduran
nation states, right?
(40:19):
So one is always constantly moreinterested in government and one
is more actually interested incommunity-based activism.
Um, and there's not a hierarchy,I'm not putting the binaries of
the dichotomy, but he writesthis song, Afiga, right?
It's a story, it's a song thatreally details the Gary Funa
diaspora from Africa to St.
Vincent, from St.
(40:40):
Vincent to Roatang, fromRowatang to mainland Central
America's Caribbean coast, andthen from Central America's
Caribbean coast to the UnitedStates.
And it's a song that reallycaptures the multiplicity, the
resistance, the rebellion, themarinage.
But it's also a reminder abouthow Africa is at the core of
this, right?
That in many ways Garifana folkscan talk about their
(41:04):
indigeneity, they can talk abouttheir culture, but we can't
forget Africa, right?
That Africa gave us all of thisculture.
And this is where the kind ofnegotiations around indigeneity
and blackness um become reallycomplicated, right?
And they get complicated becausehybridity is kind of the core of
the narrative, but this songreally reminds us that the
(41:25):
motherland is Africa, right?
That in many ways, Garifunafolks wouldn't be Garifuna folks
without Africa.
And it's a gorgeous song, and heit's kind of like a little bit
of a Garifuna ballad.
Um the drumming is really low.
Um, and it's really soothing tohear his words and reclaiming of
Africa as the motherland ofGarifuna folks.
SPEAKER_00 (41:45):
Boyago, stay tuned for Strictly Fact Sounds, where
we connect our history to popculture.
For this Strictly Fact Sounds,what better way to pair the
knowledge and resources Dr.
Lopez Ora shared with us thanwith two documentaries?
Filmmaker Andrea Leland hasdeveloped two great
documentaries on the Garrafuna.
(42:07):
The first entitled The GarrafunaJourney Historicizes the Culture
and Beliefs through Food, Dance,Music, and Spirituality.
And her more recent film,Yorame, which means Homeland,
was released in 2013.
Much like our episode today, thecompanion film recounts the
lesser-known history of theIndigenous community in St.
(42:28):
Vincent and their story ofresistance, repair, and memory.
Check out both online from ourStrictly Facts Syllabus now.
Thank you so much for joining meon Strictly Facts Today.
This was such a generativeconversation.
It was so great talking withyou, Dr.
Lopez Oro.
(42:49):
I hope the listeners enjoyedthis.
We'll have links to all of thereadings and you know,
activists, et cetera, that wementioned in this episode on our
Strictly Facts Syllabus online.
And we hope you enjoyed thisepisode, everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (43:03):
Thank you.
Appreciate y'all.
SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
Thanks for tuning in to Strictly Facts.
Visit strictlyfactspodcast.comfor more information from each
episode.
Follow us at Strictly Facts Podon Instagram and Facebook and at
StrictlyFacts PD on Twitter.
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