Episode 13: Ross Hogarth on Van Halen, Multiple Grammys, Musicianship in the Studio, and the Human Heart of Record-Making

Episode Transcript
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Joey Stuckey (00:00):
Welcome once again to Stuck on Sound.
Man, I have lived such a blessedlife and uh so, so grateful to
know so many interesting,talented, and above all kind
people.
And one of my favorites is withus today, my buddy Ross Hogarth.
Ross, thank you so much formaking time, my friend.
How are you?

SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
I'm great, Joey.
Thank you for having me and anduh kicking off my week here with
you.
Absolutely.

I listen, you it's made my week already,
absolutely.
You know, I I have to tell you,you uh you have been such an
inspiration to me in so manydifferent ways.
Um but when we got to meet uhback in the uh long, long past
of 2017, um you were just uhsuch a gracious person with your

(00:44):
time and talent and and uh andeverything, and and we just
became instant friends.
And I and I'm so grateful forthat.
And uh I I love visiting withyou whenever I'm in LA and
getting a chance to just hangand talk and and visit.
And uh one of the things that umI think is so important for
people to understand is um youknow how how each of these

(01:07):
people like yourself withamazing careers got started.
Um and um and and and then kindof where where things ended up,
because I always find that thethe road you start on is not
necessarily the road you end on.
So I wanted to um to take youback on a journey uh uh and and
ask you to tell me about youngRoss Hogarth before you were uh

(01:28):
an icon in our business and howyou ended up getting into this
crazy thing we call the musicbusiness.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
Well, thanks, Joey.
Um here, remind me.
Did we met originally, you andyour father?
We met on one of the uh I wasteaching, right?
And that was Yeah, yeah, that'sright.
That's absolutely right.
2017.

You got it, my friend.
That was that was thatsweetwater.

SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
Yeah, thanks for reminding me.
Because yeah, I loved meetingyou and your dad, and and uh
really appreciated therelationship with you, you and
your father too, because that'sthat's very cool.
Um yeah, young me.
So without boring you um toomuch, uh yeah, I was born, you

(02:10):
know, when people startconversations like that, you
just groan and you go, oh mygosh, you're gonna, yeah.
Um, but yeah, I was um, youknow, I don't believe that
music, I don't often believethat we choose music.
It chooses us.
And uh yeah, so for me, musicchose me.
Um I started as a drummer.

(02:32):
I was taking all the stuffingout of the couch with soup
spoons at some pardon me, atsome very young age, you know,
um three or four years old.
I was already banging oneverything, pots and pans and
pasta spoons, and you know, andI grew up in New York and you
know, they threw me in thebasement with uh a Slingerland

(02:53):
blue pearl drum kit, which inthose days was not expensive.
Um I wish I still had it becauseit was That was my next
question.
Yeah, man, that's like I havegear uh gear regret over that.
Um but um my older uh my fatherand my older brothers, um, there
was a mandolin around the housethat didn't have all the

(03:15):
strings.
My older brothers hadinstruments and I gravitated to
melody.
Um, but I was all about thegroove.
And uh as I got older, I youknow I did drum core, but I also
started picking on instrumentsand became uh you know a guitar
player.
Um there were uh my mother'sbest friend is a was a folk

(03:39):
singer named Pete Seegert.
Oh yeah.
So uh in that circle there werebanjos and fiddles and mandolins
and acoustic instruments and uhso all those things, but I was
also a classic rocker, you know,because I grew up as a product
of the music that was the musicthat you know my brothers
listened to even more so than meat the time, which I gravitated

(04:02):
to their albums, Led Zeppelinand the Beatles and Humble Pie
and Soul Music and Jazz.
Anyway, all of that just becamejust who I was.
I was just a product of everymusical influence that I could
soak up.
And I played um guitar and Iplayed in uh shitty bands, and I

(04:23):
also I loved the sound of theFrench horn, so I learned how to
play French horn because I lovedum the uh Mozart horn concerto.
So all those things my momwanted me to learn piano, so I,
you know, I took piano and youknow, music chooses us.
It's like what was my safe placeamidst um a bunch of chaos, and

(04:45):
uh that led to me being about 14years old, 13, 14 years old,
amidst the chaos of New York andthe chaos of my life, um, and
kind of having this epiphanythat I wanted to be part of
music, I wanted to work with thegreatest, and I probably and may
not do it as a player, eventhough I was a pretty adept

(05:08):
guitar player by then already,and uh had some pretty decent
skills.
Um so what that led toeventually, uh given a couple of
circuitous choices like joiningthe Merchant Marines at 16, I
ended up in California, pardonme, and um I by sort of the

(05:29):
grace of God connecting withsome amazing musicians and
amazing people, um I was livingin Santa Cruz, which is a
beautiful beach town, and I wasworking in a club called The
Catalyst, which is the best clubup the coast.
Everybody played there, and inthat day and age, um Bonnie

(05:53):
Raitt, um uh Doobie Brothers andJackson Brown's road crew were
all part of a scene in SantaCruz which I uh became part of,
and I became a roadie, and Ibecame a guitar tech.
And uh the people that mentoredme were 20 years older-ish, and

(06:13):
you know, I did guitars forDavid Lindley and Wright David
Lindley, who was, and for theyounger people don't know David
Lindley, but he was JacksonBrown's multi-instrumentalist,
and he played lap steel andfiddle and bazooki and all sorts
of he won the Panga banjo andfiddle contest.
He was a multi, like a uh, youknow, a total ninja

(06:37):
multi-instrumentalist.
He plays the melody of runningon empty, and he played um, you
know, he was Jackson's musicalfoil.
And uh, and I as a drummer, Iwas able to work for people like
Mick Fleetwood and Jim Keltner.
And so I was I found my way touh working with the what I
believe are some of the greatestmusicians of that era, which I

(07:00):
call the Mellow Mafia, and and Ilearned how to show up.
I learned early on um that ifyou're on time, you're late, um,
you say yes to some things thatmay not um look at that moment
like some great opportunitybecause it's hard work, it's

(07:20):
disguised as hard work.
And uh I became a guy who youcould count on and would show up
and would do what was said andneeded.
And um I learned how to solderfrom a guitar amp builder um of
the highest caliber, a guy namedHoward Alexander Dumble.
And I sat in his shop wiring upthe amps that Lindley and Lowell

(07:44):
from Feet and Rye and you know,guys like Robin Ford and Larry
Carleton.
They were all in and out of theshop, and I became that's cool.
Yeah, so I was making Dumbleamps, learning how to solder,
learning how to fix shit,learning how to, you know, I
knew I then needed moreelectronics understanding.
I took night courses and coursesin uh in the uh community

(08:06):
colleges to become better at um,so I, you know, I didn't ever go
to college.
I didn't, you know, I barelygraduated high school, but I
always knew I needed to keeplike learning of what I don't
know.
That's kind of like part of mydeal is like, you know, when you
start to know what you don'tknow, that's when you start to
become more wise.
Um, so that's kind of the shortthing because what that all did

(08:28):
was lead me into the studio.
I was fortunate because I workedwith all these um musicians that
were, you know, great and makingrecords.
When a lot of them went in thestudio, I would go in and I
would set up their gear and Iwould be part of the session and
just you know, listening andhanging in the corner.
And um, what eventually happenedwas uh one of the engineers on a

(08:51):
record wasn't getting out of thechair to go walk out into the
live room to go listen to thesounds that were coming, and he
was just lazy and sitting thereat the desk reaching for EQ and
compression and trying to makeshit sound the way it was
supposed to sound.
And the you know, David Lindleysays to me, he goes, you know,

(09:12):
could you go out in the room,Ross, and check out um, because
he wasn't happy with what wascoming out of the speakers, and
uh, you know, and that's a bigdeal.
Like, you know, if the sound atthe source isn't what's right,
then that's the problem.
But if it's if the sound at thesource is awesome, then how it's
getting out of the speakers isthe problem.

(09:33):
And uh so I went out andeverything sounded great, and I
went back in and told him, andand it still kind of sounded
like ass coming out of thespeakers, and he got annoyed,
and you know, he realized thatthis engineer wasn't willing to
like get up and go listen andcome back in and figure out why
whatever he was doing wasn'ttranslating, you know, and
that's a big lesson I learnedvery quickly that um if it's not

(09:57):
translating and it's happeningat the source, it's our job to
get it to translate one way oranother.
So I got thrown in the chair anduh, you know, I became an
engineer.
I love it.
That's awesome.
Yeah, so uh great.
Yeah, so my my my careerstarted, you know, again by the

(10:17):
grace of God, on you know,building on hard work and
showing up to musicians andbecoming friends with the guys
that mattered, um, and uh beingon the road and learning a lot
about how you deal withmusicians and the personalities
that you navigate.
And uh, you know, I went frombeing like uh low-level roadie

(10:38):
to being more counted on and aproduction manager and a sound
man, um, and uh made my way intothe studio on all those things,
and that led forward, you know,onward.

I I love this.
And you know, I I've I've alwaysyou know told my students and um
you know any any interns oranyone that will listen um to be
where things are happening anduh and just be part of it.
I mean, you know, just just getin there and and and and do
something, whether it's it maynot be exactly what you wanted
to do, but you gotta startsomewhere.
And you know, you just get inthere and and just be part of it

(11:11):
and and also you know be open tolearn from everybody you come in
contact with.
Um and I think those are arepowerful lessons.
And I I remember uh we haddinner one time and you have
mentioned to me uh aninteresting connection with
Georgia, which is where I'mbased, um, that you had done
some um some some road work withwith the Dixie Dregs.

(11:34):
So I remember yeah, I rememberthat.
And uh um how now now did didyou after that session when you
got thrown into the chair, wereyou were you instantly on on
call or were you still doingroad like roadie work or how did
that?

SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
No, I I I I stayed being I stayed being a you know
that was the first taste of likethis is what my future looks
like, but how do I actually havea future doing this?
Um yeah.
And uh going back to the DixieDrake story, that's like a
classic moment of saying yesbecause that goes back to uh

(12:10):
late 70s, it was about 78, Ithink, and uh I was living in
Santa Cruz, hadn't met my wifeyet, um, or my girlfriend to
become my wife.
I met her in 79 in the catalystin the in the club.
But in 78, I was um you knowworking on and off the road.
And when I was off the road, Iwas at the catalyst and and uh I
was doing load-in, I was doingmonitors, I was running sound if

(12:33):
needed, I was a bartender orwhatever, you know, and I was
illegal.
I wasn't even they didn't evenknow that I wasn't even, you
know, had a fake ID.
When I met my wife, I had a fakeID.
Oh, nice.
It's the one thing she holdsagainst me, you know, is that
when I met her, I actually liedabout my age because I didn't
know if I could tell her becauseI didn't want anyone to find

(12:54):
out.
That's hilarious.
I was I was renting carsunderage.
The guy, Marty, at backstage carand truck in North Hollywood
would rent me because he it wasanyway.
That's a tension.
But anyway, so the day that theDixie Dregs came through town,
um, the uh awesome and amazingand beautiful uh guy Twiggs
Linden, who was the AlmondBrothers road manager um back in

(13:17):
the day, um, was the one thathad taken the Dixie Dregs under
his wing and helped had hadthem, you know, got them a deal
on Capricorn and uh, you know,your hometown.
And uh and uh so they had comedown the west coast um and they
were in what was called theBlackhearted Woman, which is the
uh the sleeper bobtail truckthat the Almond brothers had,

(13:40):
where the gear would fit in theback and you still had room for
people, you know, to sleep andyou know, and uh not enough for
the whole band and crew, but thethe the the crew would sleep and
the gear and everything.
It was like very cut-downversion of touring.
And uh so they come through townand uh Jeff Burkhart was uh he

(14:01):
was the Almond Brothers lightingguy, he was on that tour, and a
guy named Dave Dopp Calvin, whowas a sound guy from Atlanta,
and uh Microwave, who's nolonger with us, was the guitar
tech, and then Twiggs, who youknow was the Almond Brothers
road manager, and and uh and hethis and they came through and
Microwave was having a problemgetting uh Steve Morse's MOOC

(14:25):
pedals hooked up through uh a uha nine uh you know, through a
control voltage thing where hewould control it back in the
day.
There was no MIDI, obviously.
And uh and I knew enough how tomake that work because they were
struggling at soundcheck to makethe shit work.
And I just kind of stepped upand said, you know, I think I
can help you here.

(14:45):
Um, you know, I am a guitartech, but I'm just now uh today
I'm your loader.
You know, I was doing load-inand loadout.
And they were like, Yeah,anything, man.
And we just started talkingabout everyone we knew and
little feed and all these peoplethat we had these connections
with.
And I said to Twigs, I said, youknow, I met you in in in uh 19

(15:06):
uh 70 or 71 at the Fillmore Eastum uh when I was a kid, you
know, and uh he's like heremembered um because I was
dying to get in to see that umthe show that was that became
live at Fillmore East.
It was like Johnny Winter wasthe opening act.
That's a whole nother storybecause you know I produced that

(15:27):
last record that we won theGrammy on dedicated to Johnny.
But anyway, so I I got it, I gotthe shit working, and then they
asked me, Hey, do you want tojump on the road with us and uh
take off tonight and be you knowpart of the crew?
And uh I just said, yeah, sure.
I went back to my apartment,little crabby little place I was

(15:47):
living, and threw a bag togetherand some clean socks and stuff,
and uh and took off and workedon the road on their first tour.
They were playing for 99 cents.
That was the whole thing.
You know, that you know theywere charging less than a dollar
to come see the Dixie Drags.
It was amazing.

I mean, those guys are just ridiculous.
I mean, the the the the talentlevel is just insane.
Uh I mean, you know, Steve's theguitar player is a guitar
player.
You know, I mean he's he's justhe's just uh I they're there
it's hard to comprehend howmagical those guys are.

SPEAKER_00 (16:22):
And just to tell just to tell another like crazy
story.
So cut to 1986, which is rightnow 40 years, because last
weekend was my wife, Chris, andI, our 40th wedding anniversary.
Oh, cool.
And in 1986, I was making REM'srecord, Life's Rich Pageant, in

(16:42):
Indiana.
One of my faves.
Yeah, because uh Mellencamp, wehad built the studio called
Belmont, which John still that'swhere he makes records and
rehearses out of and stuff.
Um and when he went on the roadfrom Scarecrow, the studio which
had been basically brand newfrom Scarecrow, Don Gaiman, the
producer, said, Yeah, we'regonna go um make REM's record.

(17:07):
And uh REM's guitar tech wasMicrowave, who was the guitar
tech back in 1978.
Right.
That you know, and we had stayedin touch through REM, um, or
just through being friends.
And uh so now we were in thestudio together making REM's
record together.
Um, it was super cool becausewhen like you know, we started

(17:31):
connecting on that, making thatrecord.
Um, he was like, I know thisdude, I know our engineer, man.
You know, he saved our ass backwith the dregs.
It was really cool.
Um that's awesome.
Yeah, unfortunately he gotcancer and he passed away.
But uh yeah, that was you know,these wild things that happen
like that, where you know, youjust part of everything is

(17:53):
connections and you know, beingconnected and showing up and
pardon me, but not being a dick.
Yeah, absolutely.
And and then somewhere down theroad, if I was an asshole, uh
you know, and then you know,stepping in the studio with REM,
it would have been like, oh man,that guy was a dick.
I don't know if we want himaround.
Um you know, so part of it islike you don't know where

(18:15):
anything leads, but you know,you try your best today to to do
something that may, you know,have a ripple effect, and you
don't know where it goes.
But you know, that was one ofthose cool things.
Yeah, and then you and I talkabout it because uh yeah, you
know, you there you are downthere in you know the heart and

(18:36):
soul of what was the heart andsoul of the Southern music that
um was everything, you know,Capricorn Records was, you know,
Marshall Tucker and Wet Willieand the audience.

Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, I mean, you know, II I've always been um uh
historian here in my town andand uh spent many years in FM
radio and uh you know justpromoting independent music, but
also you know, the stuff we didin the past.
And uh Jimmy Hall and ChuckLavelle and all those guys,
Randall Bramlant, all goodfriends of mine.

(19:07):
And um, you know, they'rethey're just the talent's
ridiculous.
Uh I mean it's just so so muchtalent.
Um and and yeah, for for about adecade, this this where we are
here in Macon, Georgia was wasthe hub.
I mean, that was that was it.
I mean, you know, people andthis is when, you know, people
there was no internet, therewere no, you know, uh you you
couldn't you couldn't do thingsremotely, and people moved to

(19:30):
places they felt would advancetheir career.
Um and I don't I don't know ifthat's I don't know if what do
you what do you think?
Do you think we still have to dothat today, or do you think you
can work from anywhere nowadays?
Because uh back then, I mean Iknow Wet Willie like came to Al
from Alabama and said we'regoing to make in Georgia because
that's that's where we need tobe, you know, and and so what do
you think?

SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
Well I think there's certain places that have you
don't even know why you know youcan try to put your finger on
why something becomes um youknow the hub of something like
but you can definitely point toit around the country, you know,
you can say you know, Macon,Capricorn Records, you know, you

(20:10):
can say Memphis, you can um, youknow, you can say Stax Volt uh
Soul Music, you can go toDetroit to Detroit, Motown, um
you know, you go down and youlook at Austin and you look at
you know outlaw country and umalso just blues, Texas blues,
you look at New Orleans, youknow, coming down from the

(20:33):
Mississippi, and then you lookat Chicago, and there are all
these different places where Ithink the truly authentic music
that was made there was madethere.
It wasn't like some guy in hisuh hotel room on a laptop in um,
you know, who knows where, youknow, Minneapolis, you know, um

(20:54):
a mixture between prints andlike bands like the replacements
or you know, you know, so Ithink there's certain areas, San
Francisco, you know, this youknow, the spacey good, you know,
the the dead and and uh and alsojust the new wave and the you
know just uh LA and the deep,you know, um uh uh amount of

(21:16):
it's just I think uh there was atime where you had to go to get
into that, to steep yourself init.
Um and uh and if if you didn'tyou know you may not have gotten
the true influences that werethere, that were and why that
happens, muscle shoals, youknow.

(21:37):
I don't even know.
I think there's somethingmetaphysical that we can't put
our finger on, but it certainlyexists.
You know, it's like theconversations that people have
about things that aremetaphysical.
Just because you don't see itdoesn't mean it's not there.
Um and uh that you know goes tolike people's conception of God,
you know, whatever God is, youknow, it's like if if you're

(21:59):
only going Going to believe itif you see it, then you may not
believe it.
But I've seen it, you know, I'veseen different things come out
of these areas, and you don'tknow why, but you know, I'll go
down to Austin, Texas, and whenI'm in Austin, there's something
about being there because Iproduce artists from Austin like
James McMurtry and I work withmy favorite guitar player, David

(22:22):
Grissom.
And when we make music there,it's a certain thing.
And like when REM came toIndiana and got out a um, you
know, um uh sheesh, you know,they're from uh I'm trying to
Athens.
Athens.
When they left Athens and theycome up to Indiana, they're

(22:43):
gonna make a different kind ofmusic being in Indiana than they
are gonna make in Athens.
There's just something about it,you know.
So I've just seen it.
Um it's one of the reasons Idon't love working in New York,
because it's really hard, youknow, to work for me in um a
high rise on the 11th floor.

(23:04):
Um, and you know, I I love thethe ease and comfort of, oh, we
need another guitar amp.
All right, it's 10 minutes away,or it's 15 minutes away, or you
can shoot to a not that youdidn't have Sam Ash and Manny's,
but in general, getting gear inNew York is really hard and
getting around New York isreally hard.

(23:24):
Lugging your gear is reallyhard.
All of it's hard.
So there's something that comesout of the making of that music
that shows up in that way, wherelike in your in an area where
it's super easy, the grooves area little easier, the feeling,
the vibes a little smoother orwhatever.
I don't know.

You know what I mean?
I like that.
I think I think that all makessense.
I mean, you're right.
I mean, you know, I'm a studioowner, and and um uh, you know,
I I it doesn't really make sensefor me financially, per se, to
not be recording at my studio.
But that being said, I'm comingto LA uh to record uh the Les

(24:05):
Paul studio.
And and you know, I'm doing thatbecause there's a vibe and a
presence and something I thinkis gonna you know be meaningful
for for the art that I want tomake.
So I totally get it.
I I think that makes total senseto me.
I mean, there's you know,different different places have
different you know vibes andexperiences, and and there's
something about you know, I workwith people collaboratively over

(24:25):
the internet all the time, butthere is something about being
in the same space togetherthat's magical.
There's a there's a there's atransfer of energy.
Um you know uh it's hard toexplain, but it it's it's always
a superior you know experience,I think, when you can get a
bunch of guys in the in the roomand and and you just make some
music together.
I love it.
I love doing that.

SPEAKER_00 (24:46):
Yeah, I'm absolutely um, you know, I'm of the modern
age.
I do what I need to do.
Um I mix here out of my studio.
A lot of people send me files.
I never see them in person.
We might meet on Zoom orsomething.
I mix the record, I send it.
Sometimes it's like living in avacuum.

(25:07):
There's some period of timewhere I don't get any notes, any
feedback.
You know, my head starts to tellme that they hate what I'm doing
and my mixes suck, you know.
Because I love I love the moreinstant response of like, oh, I
love it, or I don't, oh, let'schange that or whatever.
Yeah.
For me, the making of music, Ijust find when people aren't in

(25:31):
the room together, somethingdoesn't happen that can only
happen when they're in the roomtogether.
Totally with that.
You know, what you just said,the transference of energy, the
connectivity of energy, the Imean, unless you're a solo
musician making solo music, um,which I still believe I've made

(25:54):
records with solo musicianswhere me being in the room
matters to them.
Oh, yeah.
Oh yeah.
So that the people that engineerthemselves that just do it at
home because they have to, I'llnever tell them not to.
But the minute you get someoneout of the room, oh out of their
room, into another room, andthis is I mean, I am just such I

(26:18):
all most of all the my favoritemusic that I ever either
listened to or have made wasmade because people are around
other people.

Yeah, totally, totally.
And you know, I love that.
And you know, you're right.
I mean, sometimes you have to,you know, uh, I got a band in
Texas right now.
They're uh they you know, theythey want to come to to be with
me, but they they can't.
So, you know, we're we're doingeverything remotely, and um and
they they send me uh uh a takeof their thing, and I'll say,

(26:50):
uh, you need to look at the theuh you know the timing of that
bass line and also in the chorusthe drums are a little busy, and
you know, we'll we'll do it youknow, stupid text messages, but
it you know, it it gets the jobdone, but it's not the same
thing, you know.
Um but but they I I I I love Ilove what you say about about uh
you know just experiencing musictogether, because that's really

(27:14):
the whole point, really, is toto be together in a moment.
Uh that's what music can bringus, whether we're listening to a
record or we're we're making therecord.
I mean, it's you know, I Iremember as as a kid, I don't
this didn't really happenanymore.
And and maybe you'll have asimilar experience.
I don't know.
But in the I was a kid in the80s and I was a sick child,
very, very sick, you know, fromthe brain tumor uh that took my

(27:36):
eyesight and almost died abunch, and you know, uh had had
times where I couldn't leave thehouse.
But uh my friends would comeover and we would all spend our
allowances on records.
And once a week we get togetherand everybody bring their new
record, and um and we'd all sitthere and play it for hours and
just you know, just talk aboutwhat we heard and you know what

(27:57):
it meant and all these things.
And I I personally feel like Ishould have some of Michael
Jackson's publishing because Iwore out at least five copies of
Thriller as a blind kid tryingto put the needle on the song I
wanted to hear, scratching themall up.
So you know, I had to rebuythem.
So, you know, anyway, but it itwas it was an amazing
experience, and and you know Idon't think people do that like

(28:19):
they used to.
Did you get together and listento records when you were you
know with your friends?

SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely.
Um, and you know, sharingrecords and you know, the whole
the whole experience of therecord was and is my history of
why I do what I do.
I mean, I would sit there withthe actual album cover, yeah,
and I'd stare at every credit.

(28:45):
Yeah, I would read every singlecredit, and I you know, learn
the names of every musician thatplayed on everybody's shit, and
you know, and aspired to meetand be around those people.
It was very much an album withan album cover is a living,

(29:06):
breathing thing, and that'ssomething that is if you're not
into like if you're you know,and it happens to me now where
I'll you know, produce engineer,mix a record, and I'll give a CD
even to one of my nieces ornephews or someone, and then I
won't get any feedback oranything about it, and then I'll
check in and I'll say, Wow, youknow, similarly, like, hey, that

(29:28):
really must have sucked.
You don't even want to tell mehow bad it is.
And uh, they go, No, we have noway to listen to it, you know.
And so the only place thatpeople now that don't have like
a turntable or a CD player isthe internet, and the internet
has either wrong credits or nocredits.
That's right.
So all of us that do what we dohave lost the ability to be

(29:53):
known for what we do, and in andoften the credits are wrong
because there's someone whodoesn't care and doesn't
understand the value of credits,putting the credits up.
There's you know, some assistantto an assistant that just, you
know, and and I could just go onand and start to like rub a sore

(30:13):
wound that I try to make sure Idon't, you know, start calling
out people.
But um that whole experience ofholding a vinyl, you know,
holding a cover and reading thecredits is what is inspired me
to do what I do because I'dstarted to see, like, for
example, someone who I believeum was one of the greatest

(30:36):
engineers that we've ever had,one of the coolest people I ever
knew, and one of the people thatI feel mentored me at times when
I was able to be around and talkwas the great Al Schmidt.
And, you know, we just lost DaveMason a month or so ago, who was
a friend of mine too, I wasfortunate to know.
And he put out a record in 1970called Alone Together.

(31:00):
It was one of the greatestrecords ever made.
And uh the songwriting and theplaying and just that whole
record, and when the record,when I got my first Alone
Together, it was on RainbowVinyl.
It was the coolest frickin' Ohwow! Yeah, that is cool.
Just the beautiful multicolorvinyl, and I wore a hole in

(31:20):
that, and I probably ownedprobably three copies or four
copies of that record because Ilistened to it until the until
the grooves fell off.
And uh and I would read thecredits and it says, you know,
mixed by Al Schmidt.
And then a couple years later,Jackson Brown, Late for the Sky,
one of my favorite Jackson Brownrecords.

(31:41):
And then, you know, I aspired towork with these guys and to make
records sound like this.
And then I bucket list, youknow, I ended up, you know, and
have ended up in my life, youknow, checking a lot of the
bucket list, you know, thosechecks, you know, I, you know,
it's it's one of those thingswhere I would say to my wife,
you know, when we'd go onvacation or something, if I get

(32:02):
a phone call from Stevie Wonder,uh Joni Mitchell, Paul
McCartney, you know, then I'mgonna have to leave vacation to
go.
But everybody else, I'm gonnasay I'm too busy, you know.
Yeah.
So, you know, you look at therecords that I listened to and
would stare at the albumcredits, you know, and Al
Schmidt, mixed late for thisguy, you know, and here's this

(32:25):
record changing my life.
And I'm like, someday I'm gonnameet that guy.
I want to ask him questions.
Tom Dowd.
You know, you know, we wouldn'tknow what Tom Dowd did if we
didn't have credits.
I mean, yeah.
And, you know, Tom Dowd changedthe face of recording, and his
story is one of the greateststories ever told about you know

(32:49):
becoming something you don'texpect.
He was a legitimate rocketscience scientist.
He was a nuclear physicist.
He went to the Atoll Islandswhen we tested the atomic bomb.
And he came back to go back toColombia to finish up, you know,
his higher level of um mastersor whatever.

(33:10):
And he knew government secretsthat he couldn't tell his
teacher, who was teachingnuclear fission at five years,
you know, like he knew fiveyears ahead what that was being
taught at Columbia.
And it was very debilitatingthat he was like, I can't
continue to do this.
I know more than the teacherthat's gonna teach and grade me.

(33:31):
He was out in a jazz club and hemet Nesway and Ahmed Erdogan,
who were starting AtlanticRecords, and they needed an
engineer.
They didn't know that they weregonna get uh, you know, like
some people go, Hey, I I I'm nota rocket scientist.
Well, he was.
Exactly, yeah.
You know, and yeah, and and uh,you know, and the things that
Tom Dowd brought to ourrecording, not only culture, but

(33:55):
the and and uh, you know, it's ait's a shame because these
credits and the things that wesee on the vinyl covers have
changed like the whole likecourse of many of us that do
what we do.
Yeah.
And I wonder, you know, how thatwith that, that's one of the

(34:18):
reasons that I totally getbehind, you know, whether it's a
podcast or going to BlackbirdAcademy and teaching and trying
to bring awareness to these kidsthat are really into doing what
we do, but have the are sort ofat a deficit of what we call the
information age, which is sortof the misinformation age, I
think.

(34:39):
Preach.

Yeah, that's right.
And you know, that's that'sactually uh the two things that
annoy me the most uh uh aboutbeing blind is uh not able to
drive, which is a real pain inthe butt.
But the other one is I can'tread the liner notes, and uh I I
so want to.
And it it just vexes me.
So, but I had an interestingthing happen where uh I was

(35:02):
having dinner uh with a with agroup of colleagues, and Michael
Beinhorn was there, and um, andso I'm sitting there and we're
talking, having a good time, andyou know, uh you know, as as I
try to do, I leave, you know,with new friends.
And uh I'm sitting there uhthree or four weeks later, and
uh an interview comes acrossFacebook.

(35:23):
It's Michael Beinhorn talkingabout making one of my favorite
records, which is super unknownby SoundGarden.
And I had no idea that the guyI'd had dinner with uh, you
know, did one of my favoriterecords because I can't read the
letter notes.
And so it was hilarious.
I mean, and I've told him thatstory that, you know, it's just
but but I mean it's it's youknow, the you do pick up things,

(35:46):
and I will tell you, um, I amwith you a hundred percent on
these these digital credits.
Uh uh I'm a governor with therecording academy and an RPE
wing in particular uh has beenreally preaching and trying to
push the boat out to getmetadata properly uh
encapsulated in every projectand so that the the credits go

(36:09):
where they belong and and thedigital credits are shown.
And it's an uphill climb.
Uh it it some people are notinterested.
I don't know why.
It just seems fair, it justseems courteous to list all the
people that make these thingspossible and and uh why why it's
such a hard push, I don't know,but there are some of us out
there pushing for it.
So that's that's just you know,that is something that we're

(36:31):
doing.
And of course, I can't speak forthe recording academy.
I have to be very careful to saythat, but uh, you know, I I can
tell you that we are we are weare trying because it's just
it's just wrong not to have it,uh, and not and not to have it
right.

SPEAKER_00 (36:44):
And this is something we've been pushing for
years now.
You know, there the reason thatthere is the um producer and
engineer wing of the Grammys isbecause um I don't know, I would
have to say not yeah, maybe 35years, somewhere early 90s, you

(37:06):
know, Ed Cherney, Al Schmidt, umyou know, there's a handful of
the leaders of you know, theguys that aren't even around
anymore, but they had this idea.
Um, Chris Stone from the recordplant who created what we ended
up becoming, which was the MPGE,the Music Producers Guild.

(37:29):
Um and uh we became a guild witha dollar a day due with$365 to
be part of it.
And that guild, you know, whichthen encompassed a lot of us uh
for a few years, um then wereabsorbed into and became NARAS

(37:53):
producer and engineer wing.
And that so the guild, which umthere was some photos floating
around recently that I had thatI gave um one of my dear friends
Michael Frondelli, because hewas one of the you know, there
were guys that were on theforefront of it, and then a
bunch of us that you know werethe earliest guys had signed up
because you know, it wasn't justlike the the meta alliance where

(38:16):
they have seven or eight guys.
No, we had like a lot of a lotof us.
There were, you know, a fewcouple hundred plus, and then
just more every year.
But one of there were two thingsthat we were really into, and
neither one of them havehappened yet.
And I'm not dishing on the thethe the P, you know, the
producer engineer wing of Naris,because it's just it's sort of

(38:37):
like trying to put your fingerin, you know, the story of the
finger in the dike, and you justcan't stop the flood.
Um, there's just too manyissues.
But we wanted credits.
We wanted to make sure, becausewe could already see with with
digital and cds and and what wascoming is Napster and downloads
that credits were going the waygoing away.

(38:58):
And yeah, and they weren'tcorrect.
And and the other was that youknow, SAG Aftra has and and you
know, movie uh have they havegreat health insurance.
Like my guys that I know thatare like grips on the stages
have like great health insurancewhere producer music like even

(39:18):
musicians that don't sing umunless they're part of the
union, we don't have any help.
We all pay independent healthinsurance and pay a fortune for
it, obviously.
That's a whole nother story.
I'm not gonna just saying,because you know you have you're
challenged every day with yourhealth and that's right.
And you know, I'm sure the onlyway you, you know, you pay a

(39:39):
fortune for health insurance soyou don't have to go bankrupt
when you it's ridiculous, right?
Yeah.
So, you know, and if you were inSAG AFTRA and you were part of
that, which I'm not sure you areor not, you'd have better health
insurance.
It would, you know, that'spretty good, you know.
Um, and we just we have pushedon things that, you know,
because the issues pile up, um,this one gets lost in the sauce

(40:03):
because it doesn't seem likeit's that important.
But it is because it's thehistory of the shoulders of the
people we stand on, you know,that is what creates who we are
moving forward.
And when you lose the history,when you don't know, you know,
when all you can say is, well,yeah, Al Schmidt won 20 some odd

(40:24):
Grammys, but you go, well, whatrecords?
I can't find which ones, or TomTom Dowd, or you know, Ed
Cherney, or you know, all thegreats that going back and back
and back and back and back.
Eventually, you know, those ofus who are still alive, um, a
lot of us depend on the creditto get the next job.

Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And and it's just a professionalcourtesy.
I mean, it's just, you know,it's just it's just something
that should be done because it'sthe right thing to do.
I mean, you know, I I try to Ican't I can't force my clients
to put credits on anything, butI always turn in a list of
credits, especially if I haveinterns uh working with me,

(41:06):
because some of these kids, thiswill be their first bite at the
apple, and a credit on a recordis really helpful.
And um, and so I I always say,look, I can't I cannot promise
that the client will include it,but I will submit it and I will
I will follow up and remindthem.
And I'd say, you know, probably70% of them put do do what I ask
them to do uh and put the kids'names on it, and uh then you

(41:28):
know, probably 40% of themactually send me a copy of the
record to give to the to the tothe intern.
Uh, you know, but it's you youdo what you can, but it's you're
right.
I mean, it it is it is somethingthat absolutely has to be done
for so many reasons.
I have a question for youthough, because uh I I knew you
played guitar.
I did not know you started lifeuh as a drummer.

(41:50):
Uh and and I'm one I know thatplaying a bunch of different
musical instruments for surehelps you as a producer.
Like, for example, like I'm I'ma low side of adequate keyboard
player.
I know everybody thinks theblind guy should play keyboards,
but uh because of Stevie andRay.
But uh uh, you know, I I I'mreally I mean, low side of
adequate may even be too kind,but it does help me, you know, I

(42:11):
understand enough about it thatI can assist others that are
great players.
How much do you I'm sure you useyour knowledge in that way, but
how much do you actually getinto uh playing at this point in
your career?
Do you do you still play yourguitar?
Do you do you do sessions withit?
Do you write?
What's going on?
Do you ever release your ownmusic?

SPEAKER_00 (42:28):
Okay.
It's funny because I got closerback to it during the pandemic.
You know, I brought my moreinstruments back into my studio
and I was doing a lot moreplaying because we had a lot
more free time.
Um I I uh was down in Februaryworking with Billy Strings, and
uh, you know, the song thatEdgar and I were working on that

(42:49):
we brought to Billy, um, I waslearning, um I I ended picking
my mandolin back up to kind ofcome up with, you know, for me,
you know, when we were workingout like the the song and stuff,
um, you know, the the way that amandolin operates in bluegrass
music, um, the mandolin is sortof the snare drum, you know,

(43:11):
it's sort of mixture between thehi-hat and the snare drum of of
the music, because a lot ofbluegrass has no drums, you
know.
And so the right hand of themandolin is almost more
important than anything.
And I have a really good righthand, fortunately, as a drummer.
And I have, I mean, again,there's no humble brag going on,
it's just telling the truth.
I have really good time.

(43:33):
I've always had really goodtime.
It's what made me a really goodrhythm guitar player, and I
became less focused on becominga left handed shredder, even
though I um like to learn a lotof.
I I mean, I can't play eruptionor anything.
I'm not a tapper.
Um, and when I watched and whenI worked with Eddie, I was

(43:53):
always marveling at his righthand and the groove that he and
Alex had together.
So I'm a very much focusedrhythm.
I mean, I Have a really solidgroove.
And uh, you know, when it comesto my own playing, I the music I
play is more like uh open tuningLeo Kaki meets um slide guitar
or something because I haveworked for so many years with

(44:15):
slide guitar players and I knowlots of open tunings and stuff,
but I also love playing uh banjoand mandolin, um, two of my
favorite instruments.
So when I was working, going towork with Billy, I brushed up on
my banjo and mandolin playing.
So I, you know, wouldn't be sucha hack if I did pick up an
instrument.
But you know, he's such anincredible, he's an incredible

(44:35):
mandolin and banjo player,besides being acoustic guitar
maestro.
I didn't even want to embarrassmyself being around Jerry
Douglas, Sam Bush, and and uhand and Billy Strings.
But oh I I I know exactly whatyou mean.
But I do, you know, I uhthroughout my career, I I should
have a thing that says on mybusiness card the bridges are
free.
You know, I've given away a lotof bridges.

(44:56):
Um you know, working with at-shirt.
It is, and I I you know, I won'tcall out any of the artists, but
you know, I if they're playing asong and you know, and I'm like,
you know, how about we go to theyou know the the relative minor
or maybe go to the sixth minor,you know.
I mean, I know music.
I'm a you know, I I I speak thelanguage and and uh and
groove-wise, it's something thatreally helped me with analog

(45:18):
tape back in the day.
It's one of the things thatcemented my relationship with
Larry Carleton because he had afoot pedal that he would use to
punch in for himself because hecould never find an engineer
that knew how to get in and outwhen he wanted to do guitar solo
punches.
And when we worked together, hedidn't need to do that because I
could go in and out on a guitaron a Larry Carlton guitar solo

(45:39):
and not like wreck it.
You know, that was one of thethings that a lot of engineers
didn't trust themselves wouldlike jump up out of the chair
and put a leader in on like theend of the punch so that they
never erased the note comingout.
But I had such good time.
I could and the way thatMellencamp arranged songs is
he'd have the whole band playeverything.

(46:00):
Like, you know, he'd have, youknow, back then before David
Grissom was in the band, he'dhave Larry Crane and Mike
Wonchek, the two guitar players,and he had Lisa Germano, the
fiddle player, and John Casello,who either played accordion or
organ, and he had Pat and uh andand the Crystal playing Shakers
and singing, and we'd, you know,the whole song would go down and

(46:20):
with all this music, and thenhe'd come in the control room,
and when we got a take, he'dhave me erase the parts that he
didn't want.
And sometimes it'd be like alittle fiddle thing that right
after that little fiddle thingwas the thing he wanted.
So he'd have me erase it.
And I'd, you know, at first Iwas like, You really want me to
erase it?
He's like, Yeah, just make it goaway.

(46:40):
Now, if I couldn't get out intime, I would have been wrecking
what would have been theperformance, and that you know,
to save and be safe, a lot ofengineers who don't trust
themselves, you know, stop andput a leader in, cut the tape,
actually, on the the point wherethe out is.
But you know, for me, I wouldhave gotten fired.
Millicamp would have never hadthe teaching.

(47:01):
Seriously, I would have been outof that chair and home.
And so, and I just knew I hadgood enough time to get in and
out.
Because on an analog tapemachine, you have to anticipate
the in and anticipate the out.
If you come out on the downbeat,you're out, you're erasing.
You know, so it's always like,you know, a 16th or 32nd or 64
note.
You know, you have to be like,get out, get it, you know, it's

(47:22):
like you know, and and if you'relooking at the tape counter,
you're fucked.
So, you know, when it comes toanalog tape and recording on
analog tape, where you're tryingto, you know, there's nothing
about like, you know, Pro Toolsbeing a quick punch where you
can just pull the thing aroundand it's all non-volatile.
So, you know, I made a careerfor myself because of being a

(47:43):
drummer and having really goodtime and being a musician and
knowing notes, where thecommunication is like if you
don't, and if you can'tcommunicate, it's like going to
some foreign country and notknowing the language, you might
be able to get away with it forlike, you know, an hour or a
half a day, but you're not goingto have a career.
So, you know, fortunately forme, I've used it through my

(48:06):
whole career, and I, andparticularly when it comes to
producing, I'm very much intothe arrangement of how many,
like I love odd bars and oddtime, you know, like sometimes
on folk singers like JamesMcMurtry that writes like seven
or eight verses.
It you got to do things, havelike weird sleight of hand where
like you might have a seven,four bar to get back to the next

(48:28):
verse, which is hanging justlong enough so the listener has
time to just digest the lyric.
And that seven, four bar, thatodd time that makes it hang,
just that extra beat or twobeats before it goes boom back
into like a vocal or a moment,is just enough to create the
tension and release and tensionrelease that you need to keep

(48:51):
the listener interested.
Even though the story is a goodstory, if it comes off like a
run-on sentence, it can lose thelistener.
Like any good storyteller, themusic has to be the storyteller
for a storytell.
So, um, and like anything, I I Ijust call it there's sometimes
there's good math and sometimesthere's bad math.

(49:11):
Like bad math is when it's justlike a Tetris, the same four,
for, you know, eight, eight,eight, eight, or eight, you
know, two, two-bar reintro.
Every it's always a two-barreintro, and you always know
exactly what's next.
I like, you know, when thingsare a little bit, you know, off.
And so that comes from that, youknow, having sat behind the kit
as a kid and played andunderstand what it is to create

(49:36):
a a dynamic, too, you know.

That's amazing.
Yeah.
And do you it what whatinstrument do you feel the most
affinity with?
I mean, what what's the one thatreally you know uh uh informs
you the most?

SPEAKER_00 (49:48):
Um when I when it's electric guitar, it's always
going to be a strat.
I'm just a strat player.
I love my strat.
Um, I you know, tellies arecool, but I never enjoyed a Les
Paul.
Uh, really don't dig playing aLes Paul.
I love listening to people whocan play Les Pauls and make them
sing, but for me a strat is justand acoustic guitar is my

(50:10):
favorite instrument.
Um, I have a couple of acousticsthat are my favorite acoustics.
I have a uh um a 12-string guildthat has you know some great
stories behind it, butultimately that guitar, every
time I pick it up, I don't wantto put it down.
That's awesome.
Um and then I have a uh J45, um,that's a really great, but I

(50:31):
have a triple watt Martin.
That is my favorite little guythat just he's small and it's
just you know, it's a parlorguitar and it's just really fun
to play because it's so smalland intimate.
Um, and those are, you know, andthen I love playing mandolin.
I mean, mandolin is one of myfavorite instruments to play
because it's just there's somuch music in that neck um that

(50:54):
is not obvious, you know, and soit's a challenge for me.
And it's a rhythm instrument.
I get to play that really purelylike a rhythm instrument and
like it, chick it, chick-it, youknow.
It really is something thataccentuates my love of rhythm.

That is really cool.
And I, you know, I have a I havea problem with the mandolin.
Um, I have one, and the reason Ihave one is because of REM.
You know, that was like, youknow, uh, you know, everybody at
that at that, you know,remembers uh the moment the
mandolin became this big thingin 1991 or whatever it was.
Uh, you know, and so I have amandolin that I that I bought.

(51:33):
But uh my hands are real big,and um I have a hard time
scrunching my fingers up to fiton the mandolin.
And there there I found amandolin that I could play
really well that had a biggerneck, and I loved it until I saw
the price, and then I was like,I do not play this well enough
to justify this instrument.
So we're gonna put this onedown.

SPEAKER_00 (51:52):
So yeah, you might find yourself a tenor, you know.
You know, a tenor, you mightfind a tenor.
And uh, but uh you're right, youknow, that's one of the reasons
I I I owned and had a killerRickenbacker guitar.
I couldn't play it.
It the neck was too small.
It was it was just too thestrings were too close together,
and you know, the you know, Ibecause I love the sound of a

(52:13):
Ricky 12 string.

Oh yeah, yeah, man.
I mean that's just one of akind.
I actually uh uh had had aRickenbacker as a kid, and uh
and somebody stole the guitarfrom the blind man, which
there's a special place in hellfor that.
Uh but anyway, uh my guitar gotstolen, and uh and I I looked
for it for a day and then andthen found it in a pawn shop and
it's a whole story.

(52:35):
But anyway, I I I love that youyou know love music and and and
you love all of it, and and Ifeel the same way.
And I have to say, I don't knowif you remember, uh, but over
dinner you played me a littlebit of a demo uh that you were
gonna take down to Nashville forGary Douglas and those guys to
to play on.
And uh it was it was out justfantastic to listen to that, and

(52:58):
then uh uh played me over, andand this is what people need to
know.
So Ross Hogarth's rough mix thatI heard over a cell phone where
I don't know whose record I itwas, I I but it had Joe Bonamasa
on it.
Uh I heard a little rough mix uhof something, and uh I was like,

(53:20):
you know, his rough mix over hiscell phone is probably better
than my final mix.
I was like, this is so good,it's it's just ridiculous.
Like, are you sure that's arough mix?
Like, are you sure?
So, I mean, your mixes areabsolutely just you know
masterpieces.
I I love them so much.

(53:41):
Um, and and there's so many coolthings you do that are uh a
mystery to me.
But um I I I did wonder, like,you know, we we talk about um
you know, we talk about the thespirit of music and and and we
and you know I I'm a bigbeliever in you know intention,
uh inspiration.
I think both those things shouldand can coexist.

(54:04):
And uh and and I I I I love allmusic.
I love I think you know you cantake an influence from anywhere
and and and do something withit.
And so, you know, we talk aboutabout the spirit of music, and
of course we have all thesetechnical things we worry about,
but at the end of the day, whatwe're trying to capture is that
that lightning in the bottle,that pure essence of of joy and
and or or sorrow or whatever itis that's being communicated.

(54:27):
But uh, you know, I have to Ihave to talk to you a little bit
about gear because uh we're allwe're all gear nerds, and I I
want to I'm gonna be honest, Iprobably have a problem that
requires an intervention becauseI do have severe uh mic envy uh
and and lustful thoughts aboutmicrophones.

(54:48):
And uh and you know, I I've I Ihad a lot of goals when I got in
this business, and now my goalis is to die with one more
microphone than Sylvia Massey.
That's kind of my new goal.
So so anyway, I say that tonguein cheek, kinda.
Uh, but tell me, you know, withyou, like what what is your
favorite things that you like tohave on a record?

(55:10):
Do you have a do you have acertain thing that you like to
take with you regardless ofwhat's going on?
I mean, do you do you do youfeel any any kind of like you
know, how do you you preferplugins or analog or what's
what's the Ross Hogarth secretsauce uh from you that that you
that you carry with you fromproject to project?

SPEAKER_00 (55:28):
Well, you know, I love yeah, I mean I I have the
same, I mean, I I have like Italked about selling the drum
kit and there's other thingsthat I've sold and other you
know we have regret about like,oh my god, I can't believe I
sold that back then or whatever.
Um but I do have a pretty sweetcollection of microphones, and
those are my tools.
I I look at myself like acarpenter, and uh when I walk

(55:51):
into a studio, I look at myself,you know, having done a fair
amount of that in my earlierpart of my life, you know,
carpentry and building.
And I, you know, I I wouldn'texpect guys to show up at my
house and then be asking me ifthey could borrow like you know,
my router or my you know, planeor whatever.

(56:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I'd be like, wow, thisguy doesn't have any tools, you
know.
So generally when I walk into astudio, give or take, um I have
a fair amount of microphonesthat I'm gonna use of my own
because I know what they are, Iknow what they do, and then you
know, I'll I'll you know add toit, you know, like when I go to
East West, they have M50s, youknow.

(56:32):
Of course, I don't own M50s, Idon't have a decadry of M50s,
yeah.
But I do have some, you know,great B and K slash DPA omnies,
and I have ribbon mics andRoyer, you know, it's pretty
well documented.
My love of Royer and myadvocation, like I advocate and
have been an advocate for them.

(56:53):
And uh so, you know, there's amicrophone that they have, which
is the tube stereo microphone,the SF24 V, which I love the
SF-24, but the V, the tubestereo is like on just about
every recording I do, give ortake.
Um drums or what?
Um it could it can, you know, itcan be it, it can be drums,

(57:16):
percussion, B3, can be guitarroom, definitely strings, horns.
Um, you know, it's likeeverywhere.
And uh so I have uh I only haveone 24 V, but I got two SF24s,
and those um to the to thegeneral naked listener wouldn't
be able to notice, except maybeon strings and horns and very

(57:39):
much a detail.
But for me, the 24V has adifferent reach.
Um, same thing with the 122V,which is the tube um, you know,
ribbon uh that's the upgradefrom the 121 to the 122 to the
122V.
We use those on Van Halen'sguitars.
I use them all the time.
But the 121 is like uh go-to onevery, you know, if I'm not

(58:04):
using something else, I'm usingthe 121 on every guitar with an
added you know dynamic.
Um, you know, so there's thingsthat I do and use on every
session generally that um justgive me the result, give or
take.
Like I I have a BK5 that soundsreally great on guitar, but you
can't get it up close enoughthat it goes in phase with a 57

(58:26):
or something like that.
So the BK5 is a great guitar ampmic, but you get it too close,
you're gonna blow it, and italso won't be, you know, it just
you can't do it.
So that's the problem withcertain microphones, is that if
you want to use more than one ofthem, you can't, you know, get
it in phase, and that's thebeauty of the 121, the 122 with
the pad, and the 122 V.

(58:47):
Um, and I know that you know AEAand other people make mics.
I just um it's sort of likethere hasn't been enough time in
my life to try every singleribbon mic that everybody has
now, and I know there are quitea few good ones, and it's not
like I'm just advocating forRoyer because I'm a shill for
them, but it's I've been withthat working with John Jennings

(59:09):
and and the guys that run thatcompany.

Dave Royer's a genius.
I mean, geez.

SPEAKER_00 (59:14):
Yeah, Dave Royer designed all the Mojave
microphones most of the time.
Oh, I know.
You know, so initially Mojavewas, and you're really good
friends, Dusty.
Now, you know, you guys playmusic together.
He's a great bass player.
Um, and I I I love Mojave's, youknow, in place of uh 67s and
other such.
But my 67 is I have an amazing67, you know, Klaus Heine, who's

(59:36):
probably for me one of thegreatest microphone uh he just
knows my he's you know one ofthe last living microphone guys,
you know, that knows what a realthe sound of, you know.
I have plenty of guys that dogreat work on microphones.
I'm good friends with AndrewMannheim and kind of fair about
other guys, but for me, KlausHeine is the guy, and when he

(59:59):
works on a microphone, itbecomes the best microphone that
I have.
Like that 67 will beat anybody's67 unless it's another Klaus
Heine 67.
My C12 will beat just abouteverybody else's C12 unless it's
a Klaus C12.
Um, you know, so there are thesemicrophones, KM54 is, you know,
Sheps.
I love the Sheps on acousticinstruments, you know.

(01:00:21):
Um and I have these B and KOmnis, and I also have their uh
um unidirectional cardioids, anduh that is the company that
became DPA.
So, you know, for me,microphones, you know, when you
have a great source, the nextthing in line, people can get
all caught up with the preampand the EQ and all that.

(01:00:44):
But a great microphone in frontof a great instrument doesn't
need um, you know, EQ.
You just let it let themicrophone do the job.
So absolutely.
Yeah, so a lot of the recordingsthat I do come from the source
to the microphone, and the waywe made records for a really

(01:01:04):
long time before consoles andlarge format consoles started to
go away, is we never thoughtabout what preamps because we
were on a console.
And so whether you were on aNeve, an API, a Trident Series
80, which I made a shitload ofrecords on because a series 80
we had at Rumbo, we had it inMellencamps, you know, the
records that were done on Series80, Tridents, there's a very

(01:01:27):
neutral, open, it doesn't havethe fatness and the thickness of
a knee, and it doesn't have thegrit and the grind of an API.
But, you know, you I you couldlist like a long list of records
from like Guns N' Roses appetiteto like Motley Girls to like
Mellencamp to like Stone TemplePilots to like you know, there's

(01:01:49):
like you just go down the listof records that were made on a
Trident 80, um, or a you know,or a Trident A, you know, A
range, or you know, any numberof these consoles, you just made
records on the console.
You didn't go in and startpicking and choosing a dozen
different preamps.
You just put the cable into thewall and it showed up at the
desk and you pushed the data upand you started to check your

(01:02:12):
face and go to work.
You know what I mean?
Seriously.
I love it.
I love it.
So, you know, people go, Oh, Idon't really love the neo tech.
Well, that's okay, but ashitload of great records were
made on neotech.
You know, it wasn't you know aparticularly maintenance-free
console, but you know, it andMCIs.
I mean, MCIs got down in incriterion.

(01:02:34):
I mean, Tom Dowd, you know, hemade a ton of records on MCIs.
People are like, I don't reallylove the MCI.
Well, that's okay.
Do you love the records thatwere made on it?
You know, I mean, do you do youdo you like Layla?
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, I love it.
It's like, so I mean, there area lot of desks that were just
the desks, and then there areother desks that have this, you

(01:02:56):
know, somewhat amazing uhhistory, the helios, you know,
the you know, just the it's justyou go on and on and on.
But for me, it's the source,it's the microphone, and then
it's whatever you're gonna putit into.
And and uh yeah, I mean, heliossound incredible on electric

(01:03:19):
guitars, they're just greatconsoles.
But would will I take a greatmicrophone over a helios desk?
I mean, a helios desk is notgonna solve the problem of a
shitty microphone.
That's for sure.
Just not.
Yeah.
You know, you're a bad source.

Joey Stuckey (01:03:36):
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
I mean, these microphones areour air substitutes.
That's what we're using, youknow, to capture the sound.
I mean, the microphone is isreally important to me.
Uh I've always thought micplacement was, you know, like my
my best skill.
Um and and you know, and and andthat's the thing.
And you know, unfortunately,that's not you know, uh no no

(01:03:56):
disrespect to online schoolsbecause I went to Berkeley
online and got a lot of valueout of it, but uh I went for
music business as opposed to thetechnical side.
But um the thing is, I mean, youknow, you it's hard to learn mic
technique online.
Um, so you you really I feelneed to somehow get into some
sort of studio space and try thescientific method out as what

(01:04:17):
happens when I do this?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:19):
Well you asked me what my favorite thing is, and
and in the end it's air.
Yeah.
That's right.
I love recording air, I lovehaving air, and and that's why
any like amp simulator and allthese things uh that do you know
great great job of what they do,but they are only simulating

(01:04:43):
air.
Right.
And there's no there's justthere's no replacement for
putting a mic up in a room andhaving air.
There just isn't.
Now, most people that are makingrecords at home in their closets
and this and that, well, theyneed all the other stuff, you
know, and then they have to havetheir favorite, you know,
whatever it might be.

(01:05:04):
Um, I don't have honestly thepatience anymore in my life to
go through a hundred amp sims totry to find what sounds good on
a DI.
Man, that drives I'm with you.
Yeah.
I it just it'll it drives mebonkers.
I will take that DI that I'msent and I'll on my own time and

(01:05:26):
dime, I'll go into a friend'sstudio and reamp it.

Well, hey, that's I love that.
I think that's great.
I think that's great.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:36):
Man, I just don't have the the patience.
I just don't, you know.

I I'm with you.
I mean, I I there there arethere are clients that, you
know, come into the studio andwant to spend 90 minutes paging
through reverbs.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:54):
Yeah, I take my time sometimes.
You know, that's where because Idon't any more I don't own a
plate and I don't have a chamberhere.
So I do and have taken the time.
Like I have an afternoon, I'lltake the time instead of like
searching through amp sims andshit.
I will go listen to a bunch ofdifferent plugins of reverb that

(01:06:16):
I haven't used.
And it's one of the reasonsthat, you know, I'll do a little
quick pimp here.
But a few years back, you know,six or seven years ago, um, I
had this idea when they, youknow, the companies were coming
out with, you know, the chambersand plates of famous studios.
One of my favorite and mostfavorite studios, and I have a

(01:06:36):
long history and friendshipwith, is Sunset Sound.
And I had this idea for theSunset Sound, you know, they
have their Sunset Sound Chamberone is, you know, this the sound
of like, you know, you know, VanHalen and the Doors and lots of
great records, and they'reawesome.
So I had this idea, I brought itto Paul Camarada, and he said,

(01:06:57):
Yeah, run with it.
He's the owner.
And I went to a couple ofdifferent companies, and I ended
up having dinner one night withmy friend Dave Kurzner, who's
the K with his brother of IKMultimedia.
IK.
And so Kurzner and I had dinner,and I brought him my idea as we
sat there, you know, eatingsushi.
Um, and uh he took it to hisbrother, and what we did was the

(01:07:23):
uh it's called Sunset SoundStudio Reverb, and that was the
first version, and that's thechambers and the plates and the
rooms of Sunset Sound of theirthree studios, one, two, and
three.
And then a couple years ago, itwas we upgraded it where you
could move around the room, andit also you could take a room
and put it into a chamber orwhatever, the same way we do

(01:07:46):
that.
And uh so Sunset Sound StudioReverb 2 came out this last
year, and uh, and and that isSunset Sound.
You have the rooms, you have thethe ISO booths, you have the
chambers and the plates, and uhall in one easily usable GUI,
and that works, and that's oneof my favorite reverbs, and I

(01:08:07):
helped with the idea and thedesign and everything.
Um and so you know there aresome really great plugins
because for me I have to useplugins when it comes to
reverbs.
I don't I do use my pedals andmy uh I have a um, you know, I
have a um Echoplex and I, youknow, often will you be using

(01:08:28):
those for slap, but a lot of thetape simulators I use for for
slap.
I don't really love them for asmuch like the tape thing, but as
much like the use for like, youknow, a 16 uh 15 ips uh slap or
something, you know what I mean?
So um yeah, that's thedeficiency of me mixing here.
I do have bricastis.

(01:08:49):
I love my bricastis becausethat's the closest thing to real
chambers and plates because ofthe definition of the bricasti
and the lack of um digitalaliasing and chatter that
happens on longer reverbs um inin in plug-in domains.
So the two bricastis tend to bemy dedicated plate and my

(01:09:10):
dedicated chamber, along withyou know, some of the ones that
really work, like UA,Hittsville, and um Oceanway and
Capital Chamber.
And you know, it's it's great.
We have these, you know.
Um, you know, and uh and thenwhen I'm in a real studio, uh
like at you know, well, can't goto Capitol anymore, but East

(01:09:30):
West and Sunset.
A lot of times I will print theactual chamber.

And that is so cool.
I love that idea.
That is great.
I and I I'm I know what I'mdoing when I when I'm done
talking to you, I'm gonna go buysome uh IK plugins.
So that's uh you you've sold atleast one.
Um that's uh that's good stuff.
I I I want to ask you uh two twofinal things before I let you
go.
And and um the the first one isis there a record you made where

(01:10:00):
you're like, okay, I this is it.
This is I'm I have I have donesomething uh that that is
absolutely uh a bucket list forme.
I have done something that I'mI'm uh just this is this is a
realized dream.
Is there like a record where youwhere you just had an epiphany

(01:10:20):
of like, hey, this turned outexactly how I thought it would,
how I hoped it would?
Uh it is it is uh a testamentand a monument to all the years
I've put into the business.
And it might be the first recordyou did or the last record you
did, I don't know, but is thereone record that really stands
out for you?
Um in in in your I mean you'vedone so many great ones, but
well, there are records thereare records we make where in

(01:10:44):
that moment we have no idea thatthat record is gonna be
something.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:51):
And I mentioned one of them because it was the year
that I you know we got committedto being married, we were
planning a wedding, go out backto Indiana, and I'm making REM's
life's rich pageant, and thereare all these college kids at IU
that are freaking out becauseREM, this college band, this

(01:11:14):
band, you know, that collegekids love is in their town.
And I was not a college kid.
I was, you know, I by then I wasalready a pretty scuzzed up
veteran.
Um was already coming into myown as a jaded and sarcastic
human.
And uh I'm kidding, but um hey,sarcasm gets me through my day.

(01:11:39):
Are you kidding me?

I don't make a friend one, I gotta have
something.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:42):
Yeah, you can't see it, but there's this meme that
shows a salt shaker and it andit says sarcasm, and then the
the the tagline is I sprinklethat shit on everything.
I love it.
That's great.
But uh so I was making REM'srecord, not having any idea
what, but just knowing thatsomehow musically and just

(01:12:03):
everything came together on thatrecord, musically and sonically,
and friendship-wise, it wasreally special.
And then cut to, you know, 40years later, 30 years later,
when you see the the the REMfans and they're saying, you
know, this is my favoriterecord.

(01:12:23):
Or, you know, or people come upto me and say, you know, like
even a weekend ago, someone cameup to me and said, This morning
I was listening to REM's LiveSwitch Patent, I didn't realize
that you'd made it.
And man, that record changed mylife.
I was in college, and it was therecord that, you know, and uh
and I was like, wow, that'scool, you know.
So sometimes it's that, it's notthe actual, like, so that

(01:12:46):
actually holds a lot of gravitasbecause it's I came home from
Indiana, flew straight into likehaving to go try on tuxes and
make sure that the tuxes were,you know, it was like a week
before the wedding, and my wife,yeah, and she'd been planning
the wedding with her sisters andher family, and I wasn't even
here.
And uh, so that was prettygreat.

(01:13:08):
That that record's one of them.
And uh, and it was the first uhum plaque that they ever won.
That was a gold record then, andthey went on to sell you know
millions of records, but thatwas their first gold record.
That was important.
Um yeah, so that was animportant thing, and uh and then
cut to uh late mid-late mid-late90s.

(01:13:33):
I connected with a guy named KevMoe and uh blues artist that you
know we'd gone on to become bestfriends and win Grammys
together.
And uh I just bonded with him,and we bonded in a time when
things were not great in hispersonal life, and they were a
little dodgy in my personallife, and my dad had died.

(01:13:54):
And uh we just came together andwe made a record and we cut it
live with musicians, and therewas such a symbiosis and uh just
things going on in the making ofthat record that just to this
day, when I listen to Kebmo SlowDown, which we won Best
Contemporary Blues that year, Ijust feel like we nailed it.

(01:14:17):
I just feel like I nailed it.
I nailed the vibe of gettingmusicians and they're playing in
a room, and uh everything youever want out of a really honest
record.
And I guess you know, the votersand the Grammys believed it too.
Um, and Kev Moe and I have hadthis ongoing relationship to
this day where I just look up tohim like a big brother, and

(01:14:39):
we've made other records andwe've won like Taj Moe together,
you know, nominated for bestengineer.
I didn't win in 2014.
But that but a couple years ago,I feel like I used every, well,
and Van Halen's record, I feellike I used every people skill
that I had ever acquired throughmy life on the road, dealing
with hard situations andmusicians that may not get

(01:15:02):
along.
All those are well documentedbetween David Lee Roth and the
band and all.
But I was able to pull acrossthe finish line a different kind
of truth in 2012.
And it took years to make thatrecord.
But one of the things that Ibelieve was the, you know, I had
my ingredient to that record wasgetting it done.
Was that like that thing thatyou have, that belief in

(01:15:26):
yourself that no matter what,you're gonna finish this.
That thing that you when you getup in the morning and you say,
Well, today's a really, youknow, it's I I you know life's
perfect today, and I'm not happyabout it, you know, that thing.
You know what I'm saying?
And yeah, yeah.
And and and I, you know, thatrecord, the greatest

(01:15:48):
accomplishment of that recordfor me is not as much sonically
or anything like that.
It's about getting it done.
And I got it done.
And I made what will now be thelast Van Halen record and the
first record with David Lee Rothsince 1984, and all those things
that made it really hard to getdone.
I got done, and with no lack ofuh adversity.

(01:16:13):
Um, and then you talk about whenit all sort of comes together uh
on a lot of different levels.
The record I made that we wonBest Contemporary Blues for in
22 or 23, I'm not positive whatyear it won, but you know, I
made a record called BrotherJohnny, which is a guitar
player's record honoring JohnnyWinner.
And I produced Edgar Winner, whois like another big brother, and

(01:16:36):
we're making another recordright now.
But that record, I feel we sonailed it, and we nailed it
because when it was all done andmixed and mastered, Edgar called
me up and said, This is thehappiest and the most fulfilling
moment I've ever had.
And whether we win a Grammy ornot, I love this record and I

(01:16:57):
can listen to it.
And it was a record honoring hisbig brother, one of the most
iconic blues men in the historyof music, Johnny.
And we brought in, and I broughtin, and I made phone calls to
all sorts of people, my friends,you know, Derek Trucks, Warren
Haynes, Billy Gibbons, JoeWalsh.
We had Ringo and MichaelMcDonald and Robin Ford and

(01:17:19):
Steve Lukather and my buddy PhilX, David Grissom.
And I had Taylor Hawkins, who,you know, isn't alive anymore,
but he sang instead of playeddrums.
I called up Taylor, who was amusicologist, and I said,
Taylor, I want you on thisrecord.
You know, he's like, Oh, I loveJohnny.
Yeah, I'll play on anything youwant.
I go, No, I want you to sing,dude.

(01:17:40):
He's like, You want me to sing?
Because Taylor is an amazingsinger.
People don't know that he sangall like behind Grohl, all like
it was, he was the like thecornstarch in the roux.
If you don't have cornstarch,you can't make a roux, you know,
for your, you know, it doesn'twork, you know.
So he was that thickener in thesound of the foo fighters that

(01:18:02):
you you know that you'll neverhave again because he's not
there.
And uh so um, yeah, so thatrecord when it was done, I knew
that we had done somethingmeaningful.
Um that it was something that umthat we I had achieved, you
know, um something utilizing youknow all the skills that you

(01:18:27):
have in life and you puttogether and you know picking
the songs, creating, casting theartists, engineering it, cutting
it, mixing it, and then theartist, uh the brother, the
little brother says that yeah,he gets to say, and he gets to
be the scorekeeper and say, Wewon.

(01:18:49):
Sometimes I don't get to be thescorekeeper, you know.
You know, I don't get to likeand for those who don't know
what a roux is, it's what youmake gumbo out of, you know.
So when you're making gumbo, yougotta make the roux.
It's the thing that holds it alltogether.
You're it's got the sausage andthe the the rice and the the the
shrimp and all of that, but ifyou don't hold it together with

(01:19:11):
the roux, which is the the thething that holds it together,
you know, as as Joey started ourconversation with the gravy.
You know, yeah, yeah,absolutely.
You gotta, you know, sosometimes I'm the chef,
sometimes I'm the waiter, I'mthe dishwasher, I'm the cleanup

(01:19:32):
guy, I'm sweeping up, you know,I'm fixing shit that breaks, I'm
cleaning up aisle four, youknow, all of the above.

And uh always a problem on aisle four.
Always a problem.
You know what's saying you know,I I I have a memory of this,
actually, Ross.
I don't know if you'll remember.
I believe you were actually uhunder the weather uh for the
Grammys um that that year thatthat record won.
Didn't you go?
Yeah, yeah.
And I I uh I actually was thereand texted you.

(01:20:04):
You you guys just won.
I don't know if you rememberthat, but but I actually texted
you uh when when uh when he whenhe when Edgar came out and and
accepted.
Uh and uh I don't know, I thinklike I said, I think you were
under the weather or something,but anyway, um that was that was
uh I remember that in 22 or 23.
You're right.
That was uh I had COVID.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:22):
I had a 104 fever.
I was lying in bed, I waswatching the Grammys on my iPad,
yeah, yeah, instead feeling liketotal ass.
And yeah, and when Edgar I wassupposed to walk him up there
because he, as you, he's notfully blind, but he's legally
blind, he's basically blind.
Well, he can come to unionmeetings, so that's good.

(01:20:44):
And he yeah, and he like had ahard time getting up on the
stage to go the right direction.
Oh, I I understand it well, andI was watching this go down, and
I was thinking, man, I'msupposed to be there, I'm
supposed to walk him up there.
And yeah, it was like, and mywife is in the other side of the

(01:21:06):
house trying to stay away fromme with COVID, and all she heard
was me whelping like a dogbecause I had no voice, nothing.
But I was like a our our I waslike our dog whelping in pain,
but out of joy for the fact thatwe had won.
It was really cool, you know.
Because you don't, you know, wedon't make records to win
Grammys, but you'd make themit's nice.

(01:21:27):
It's nice, man.
I mean, if anyone says I don'treally care about a Grammy,
they're lying to you.
Oh, of course they are.

You know, well, I I I've tried to steal Alan
Parsons, but the the problemwith being blind is you can't
tell when people are looking atyou.
And uh I was trying to take hisaway off the top of the console,
but they they saw me.
So uh you just need a biggercoat.
You know, that may be the secretto the next successful phase of
my life.
I'm gonna Ross Hogar says I needa bigger coat.

(01:21:55):
I'm gonna get one and see if ifthings change.
Yes.
Uh you know, the more the moreGrammys you can stuff over your
coat, the better things are.
The the the last thing I want toask you, and and uh and I I um
you know I I have to ask thisbecause it's it's it's much on
my heart and mind uh these days.
Uh, and that is I'm wonderingwhat you think about uh AI and

(01:22:17):
the creative music space.

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:20):
You know, it's it's just a such an interesting time.
I mean I mean I'll fess up thatwhen it comes to asking
questions of things and like youknow, I use I mean, I'll use uh
chat GPT, I'll jump to Gemini,I'll go to Claude, you know, I
just I'm but I've explored theSuno world, which I think is

(01:22:43):
probably one of the more used ummusical AI generators, and uh
between you and me there'ssomething that happens when I
listen to it.
Um it's so damn perfect, it's sodamn impeccable.
It just there's no way a humancould have had any part of that.

(01:23:05):
Um and uh and also it does somereally weird things when it
comes to like trying to get itto do like I've tried to get
Suno to like play in like drop Dand like you know, try to get it
to play like uh Steven Still'sBlack Queen, like if you want to

(01:23:27):
get it, like trying to get it todo something swampy and cool and
whatever.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:33):
And it does cheese music pretty well.
I mean, it turns like you know,it it turns your it can
definitely do, you know, cheesesauce, like you know, but I
think you probably and Iprobably could make a way better
homemade cheese sauce, you know.
Um, it's just there's somethingabout Suno that kind of freaks
me out.
And uh the thing that we weretalking about a few minutes ago

(01:23:54):
about musicians in a room andthe way that people react with
each other.
I just don't think that you'reever gonna teach it that because
um it's sort of like do youreally believe that a robot can
feel it's like watching likethat movie artificial

(01:24:14):
intelligence from like 20 yearsago or whatever.
Um you know, I don't know whereit's going.
I if I you know I can't predictthe future, but all I know is
that when I listen to it, thesame way when I listen, I'm just
telling you, I have a realproblem when people because like
I'll just give you an example.
Like I make records that I lovethe imperfections.

(01:24:38):
And I always say to people,don't get rid of all your
imperfections.
The greatest music that you'veever loved to listen to is
imperfect.
Musicians are not perfect, we'renot perfect as people.
People aren't perfect.
Don't ever expect people to beperfect, you'll always be
disappointed, you know, justeverywhere in life.
So if you want your music to beabsolutely perfect, you'll spend

(01:24:59):
a lot of time, you know, tryingto pardon me to your listeners,
but fly fuck something, youknow, that little fly, you know,
it's like um, it's not gonnahappen.
It's just not you ever, youknow, it's no one's gonna ever
hear it.
But I hear when things are tooperfect.
So when it comes to like tuningvocals, I will go through and

(01:25:20):
we'll tune the whole vocal, butI'll only drop in the one or two
words here and there or a half aline where the performance was
awesome, but the pitch was justoff enough that it's gonna
affect me down the road.
Um, but I always love whensomeone's going a little sharp
to get to a chorus, you know.
I think that's awesome becauseit shows that there's some
emotion there.

(01:25:40):
And, you know, my I always pointto uh to Bill Withers' lovely
day.
Um if lovely day was made today,on the end of Lovely Day, when
he goes and sings the word day,and those days are about you
know 10-15 seconds long, andhe's running out of air.

(01:26:01):
The pitches on those, you know,he goes lovely day, and he holds
day for like forever.
Go listen to Lovely Day andthink about what that song would
be like if you were giving thatto your like Pro Tools guy and
he was tuning those vocals,they'd become organ notes.
They'd be like organ notewithout vibrato, mmm, like a car

(01:26:25):
horn.
Yeah, but what you get out ofthat guy singing lovely day is a
guy who's so emotional aboutthis word day that it just
doesn't stay in tune becauseit's not perfect.
But the perfect thing is likewhen you're having that
beautiful day and you're drivingsomewhere and it's a beautiful
day and you just feel great.

(01:26:47):
There's always gonna be like,you know, for you, you have like
some physical challenges andyou're blind.
You know, a lot of people,someone's best day is that just
today.
Yeah.
And it's not maybe the best daythey've ever had in their whole
life, but it's the best dayyou're gonna get today.

(01:27:08):
Yeah.
Today.
So I believe in those things,and I believe that's what makes
records timeless is when there'ssomething about them.
Like go listen to any LedZeppelin song.
You know, people hated J, youknow, like like Robert Plant and
even Jimmy Page, you know, heleaves so many like clammy, sort

(01:27:30):
of like finger caught on thefret things on Led Zeppelin
songs, but they're freakingawesome.
They really are.
They really are.
In today's world, you just cleanall that up and you'd get rid of
it all, and it'd be allhomogenized.
So it's a long way for me tojust say I have a really hard
time listening to likehomogenized, pasteurized music.

(01:27:52):
I just do.
It bums me out because itdoesn't allow me to feel the
full max of feeling.
And uh when people give me someSuno stuff and they go, hey,
this is awesome, I realize whotheir audience is.
It's you know, oh and I don'tmean intelligent like somehow
I'm smarter, but I've justlistened to more music and I,

(01:28:14):
you know, the odds are that I'mgonna know a little bit more
about music than most people ispretty good because I've been
doing this so long and listeningto so much music.
I have an opinion on it.
And my opinion is that I willcontinue to make records with
imperfections so that thoserecords stand forward, moving
forward.
And for the people that want tomake absolutely perfect records,

(01:28:36):
that's for them to do.
But I'm I don't do that.
I can't do that because in inthe end, when I close my eyes on
any record that I'm making, Iwant it to make me feel the way
that I am intending to feel onthat, whatever the song is that
I'm trying to deliver.
And whether I'm producing,engineering, or mixing it, when
people give me, there's certainthings that I'll do when I'm

(01:28:58):
mixing.
Like often the thing that I dobelieve in, like when a chorus
lands, sometimes I will nudgelike the drums or a bass or
whatever, so or even a vocal.
So when it lands, it goes boomon the chorus, just on the
downbeat.
So you get that impact of thetop of a chorus instead of it

(01:29:20):
kind of going kick and then youknow, it doesn't really land.
But we did that back in the dayby shaving tape.
You know, we did drum editing byshaving off little bits of tape.
It's not like it hasn't beendone for you know basically
decades.
It's just some people did it andsome people didn't do it.

(01:29:42):
But I made plenty of recordswhere the producer would say,
Hey man, could you tighten thatup a little bit?
You know, and we'd shave off alittle tape and it'll just go
boom.
You know what I'm saying?
You know, so it's not like wehaven't been doing that.
It's just it's so much easier todo it now.
But in general, when it comes tothe the pitch and the time
timing and the tuning and allthose things that make music

(01:30:04):
sound way more perfect, um, Istay I stay a little bit more in
the game of like keep it real.

Yeah, I I think that's a beautiful point.
And and absolutely, I mean, thefact of the matter is that uh
the struggle, the limitationsimposed by the imperfections uh
can be quite profound and andbeautiful.
And uh, you know, I think thatum you know for me uh the uh as

(01:30:34):
a human, the struggles I gothrough uh, you know, just to
stay on two feet sometimes uhmakes it when I'm making music
more poignant, you know.
Um and uh I I work hard to beknowledgeable, I work hard to be
skilled, but I mean obviously,you know, I'm not perfect, never
will be, and that and I'm noteven gonna try.

(01:30:54):
I mean, I always want to do mybest, but that's not perfection.
And uh I I don't I don't knowthat I believe in the idea of a
perfect mix anyway.
But uh I I think I think some ofthe the the the weird sort of
things that happen in a mix andand and you know some of the
imperfections and thelimitations are actually what's
beautiful.
I mean, you think about the B3organ, I think grinds and clunks

(01:31:16):
and grits and yeah, and that'spart of the charm.
I mean, that's that's what welove.
Yeah, we love all that stuff.
When they when they tried todigitize it in the 90s, nobody
wanted to hear that.
I mean, you know, so so I I'mwith you.
I I totally agree.
I mean, you want something thatmoves you and that you can feel
you know, there's a presencebehind, and and uh I think
that's totally true.
And you have certainly made uhsome absolutely phenomenal

(01:31:39):
records, and uh what a privilegeto to get a chance to hear those
and and and get a chance to callyour friend and and to get a
chance to talk with you today onthe podcast.
I I really appreciate it, myfriend.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:50):
Well, Joey, back at you too, you know, you got a
heart of gold, you got, youknow, you're you're one of those
guys that, you know, when I metyou, you're just like, you know,
you're inquisitive and you'rejust trying to keep growing.
And uh regardless of life'schallenges, I uh, you know, and
that's something that I dobelieve is that, you know.

(01:32:12):
Because I am, you know, someonethat uses God in, you know, I
love that word, you know, andthat God gives us certain
challenges that become, youknow, our doorways to growth.
And and then, you know, you'resomeone that has taken that on,
and uh, you're awesome.
And and uh I appreciate givingthe opportunity to just like

(01:32:34):
shoot the shit and riff withyou, buddy.

It's always a pleasure, my friend.
And listen, uh, I I appreciateyou so much.
And you know, you can go andhear all the amazing guests on
the podcast that have somethingcool to say.
They may not all be as cool asRoss, but you can't have it all.
He's also a handsome man, so I'mtold.
But you can always check themout anywhere you get your
podcast or at the handy URL,www.stuckonsound.com.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 13: Ross Hogarth on Van Halen, Multiple Grammys, Musicianship in the Studio, and the Human Heart of Record-Making

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Episode 13: Ross Hogarth on Van Halen, Multiple Grammys, Musicianship in the Studio, and the Human Heart of Record-Making

Betrayal Weekly