Episode 7: Eric Alexandrakis on Duran Duran, Creative Obsession, AI, Failure, and Survival — Part 2 - Stuck on Sound

Episode Transcript
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Joey Stuckey (00:00):
Welcome to Stuck on Sound.
I'm your host, Joey Stucky.
We are picking up today withpart two of my interview with
two-time Grammy nominated artistEric Alexandricis.
He is a fantastic fellow and agood friend.
And we're going to starttalking, uh, picking up here
basically where he did his firstalbum while he was dealing with

(00:21):
cancer.
So we're going to pick up theconversation right now.
Tell me real quickly about so soyou know, you you discovered you
had cancer.
Um you were making a recordduring that time.
I'm I'm assuming there were daysyou felt good and days you
didn't.
Um and and then I wanted let'slet people know like what

(00:44):
happened with that with thatthose that those multitracks
because you got you got theattention of someone that that
you admired.
Um and and and things kind oftook a a a turn.
So what was that tell tell thatstory if you don't mind?
I'd like to share that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02):
So um let's see, I had just finished the first six
months of chemo and I wasn'treally supposed to go and I and
I started working uh in the inthe cruise ship business because
I needed money and I neededinsurance and I needed you know
stuff.

Now were you uh were you doing were you a
musician or something else?

SPEAKER_03 (01:24):
No, I was uh no, I was in their offices doing legal
work because I had legal classesin grad school and they needed
somebody to handle claims.
I'm like, Okay, I can do that.
So I mean, originally it broughtme in because they wanted to
start an entertainment side,they were gonna purchase another
cruise line, but that fellthrough, and they're like, Well,

(01:46):
we actually need help with theseclaims, and you've had law
classes and and uh youunderstand, and you can work
with the CFO.
I'm like, okay, I'll take it.
So, which was a lot of fun.
Um, kind of reading about drunkBritish old British men putting
their wives in a headlock andpunching them in the face and

(02:07):
having to settle, you know.

Did you write any songs about that?

SPEAKER_03 (02:12):
Uh no.
No.
It's never too late.
Probably would have beeninteresting.
Yeah.
But I I would write songs whileat work.
So, you know, I I found someprintouts of the, you know, on
uh I I would write them in likean email message and rather than
opening up, say, a Worddocument.

(02:34):
So if somebody came in and sawme, they just see an email
message open.
I like it, you know, so I couldconceal.
And I remember going to the carand taking calls and kind of
disappearing.
But anyway, um so six months ofchemo.
I wasn't really supposed to bein public places, and then I
opened up kind of the local newsuh weekend free paper, and it

(02:58):
said Jonathan Taylor live on uhso-and-so day.
I'm like, Jonathan Taylor?
Did they mean John Taylor?
He never went by the nameJonathan.
So I'm like, I wonder if this isJon.
So I call the venue, I'm like,is this Jon from Duran Duran?
They're like, yeah.
I'm like, why are you guyscalling him Jonathan Taylor?
Like, nobody's gonna know it'shim.
So I say, I'm so going, becausethat that's been that original

(03:22):
lineup is basically always be myfavorite band.
I I cannot blame you.
That's a good lineup.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's just pure magic.
Yeah.
So I um I was like, I'm going.
So the day of the gig, there wasa tropical storm.
This was in Miami, tropicalstorm warning.
And I was wondering if they'regonna cancel.

(03:43):
And they said, no, it's notcanceled.
So I'm always early toeverything airports, concerts,
like ridiculously early.
So I I was the first one there.
I was standing under the canopy.
There's a tropical storm blowinglike hell, and I'm under the
canopy.
Somehow, I don't know why Ididn't get soaked.
And um, one of my buddies camelater with his girlfriend, and

(04:06):
then you know, I was like, let'swalk in and and just act like we
belong.
So we walked in, act like webelong, maybe to kind of catch a
glimpse of him.
And I brought my my twofour-track cassette albums uh
and or the the first completedone and then the second one.

(04:27):
No, it was both, actually,because that was yeah, that was
when I finished chemo.
So um, and uh they threw us out,of course.
So then I went back, I went backto the canopy, and he and his
girlfriend went to the car.
So, or his girlfriend went tothe car, and then and then there
was a hotel next door.
This was in Hallendale, Florida.

(04:49):
And I was seeing the crew comingback and forth bringing gear.
I'm like, oh, you know, they'reprobably staying there.
It was like a holiday in orsomething, a day's in.
So I'm like, well, let's, youknow, let's let's go sit in the
lobby.
He's bound to come down to thelobby.
So we go sit in the lobby, andthen suddenly here is John in
yellow socks and uh glasses andasking for an ironing board.

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 (05:15):
Yeah, so so I said, I said to my buddy Kurt, I said,
dude, don't go up to him, don'tdo anything.
And then suddenly something tookover my body like a magnet, and
I just found myself walkingtowards him.
And I say, Hey John, I reallyenjoy, you know, admire you and
your some of my stuff.
And he was very nice and he tookit.
And during the gig, I was rightup in the front, and he was it

(05:41):
we had a cool interaction, andafter the gig, there was only
like 30 people there.
Wow.
A because Tropical Storm was badbadly advertised, yeah.
And it was a tropical storm.
He talks about in his book.
I actually have a photo creditin his book of the gig and his
first solo album, actually.
Uh and so he invited everybodyin the back and took pictures

(06:02):
and uh, you know, looking atthat photo.
I've never released the photopublicly because I just finished
chemo and I look like a corpse.

unknown (06:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (06:09):
Really disturbing.
So uh maybe a month later, hereaches out to me and says he
wanted to sell my first soloalbum on his new website.
And it was a very it was thefirst really web zine selling
merch of its kind.

(06:30):
It was called Trust the Process.
It was really cool.
It had like an art gallery, ithad a photography section, short
story section, history of hisband section, and it had a store
and sold his stuff and my stuff.
Wow.
And over time he added maybe twomore artists before it got shut

(06:50):
down.
Um, and then um that really gaveme this encouragement
motivation.
Then, and then my company wasrepresented Duran Duran for a
number of years for differentthings, and he played on some of
my stuff.
And uh I mean, I'm in contactwith their camp a lot,

(07:12):
especially with their managerwho I've known over 20 years.
So, and you know, WarrenCucarulo, we were close friends,
and so you know, it's been a30-year relationship with them.
Well, actually, it's been alifelong relationship if you
count, you know, being a fansince I was nine.
Yeah.
Uh and so that that's that'sreally that's it.

(07:36):
You know, I mean, he's creditedwith discovering me.
And you know, it it definitelyhelped with with promotional
stuff to get people's ears andinterest and things like that.
And uh, I'll put it on mygravestone if I have to.

Well, I mean, how how amazing is that to have a
hero like also value your music?
I mean, that's that's that's athat's a very uh powerful
experience.

SPEAKER_03 (08:07):
You know, it's it's wild.
So so I I hadn't heard thatfirst album in a long time, and
I was on an airplane, I waslistening to it, and I'm and I'm
listening to it, I'm like, thissounds like someone who wanted
to kill themselves, literally.
Yeah, and I wasn't in thatheadspace at all.
I've never that's never been athing for me, right?
But but he was going throughstuff at the time, I was going

(08:28):
through stuff at the time, and Ithink he just connected to it.
But I but I listened to it, andlike I would be concerned for
this person if I'd heard thisalbum.
So, you know, he's he's alwaysbeen encouraging when I got my
first nomination.
I mean, the letter he wrote mewas like, you know, pinch my

(08:50):
nine-year-old self.
It was just really cool.
And I saw him a few years agobackstage in Denver, and he was
great, and they were great, andthey're always great.
It's it's amazing how how lifekind of does that thing.
But you know, I had to make thathappen.
I I I had to go into thetropical storm and stand in the
windy thing and said, Nope, I'mhere and I'm gonna do it.

(09:11):
And that's how I've pretty muchdone everything.
Well, I admire that.
I don't generally take no for ananswer unless I hear no, and
then it's like, well, is it a noor is it a no?
You know, because that's exactlythat's exactly but you know,
like in in Dumb and Dumber,where Jim Carrey asks uh Mary
Samsonite, you know, says, So isthere a chance?

(09:32):
And she's like, not a big one.
He's like, so there's a chance.

But that is really indicative of people who are uh,
for lack of a better word,successful, because I mean it's
it's the chance.
I mean, you know, I've done thesame thing.
Like, I don't why I mean, youknow, if I don't try, the answer
is always no.
Right, exactly.

(09:58):
You know, I mean, and and so ifyou do try, you you may find
something there.
And uh and that's I think that'sreally important.
And I think, and you know, andyou're you're like me in the
sense that, you know, really youprobably shouldn't have been in
public after going throughchemo, you know, with all the
germs around.
And, you know, I mean, yeah,that that could have been a

(10:19):
really a really bad situation.
Uh, but you know, I I mean youdidn't even have a crowd to
contend with.
And this this the storm uhhelped you out a little bit with
that.
But I think, you know, my wifeis an advanced practice nurse,
and she's absolutely one of themost brilliant people that I've
ever met, and and not only that,one of the kindest and and just
a real healer.

(10:40):
Uh and um uh I think there's farfewer of those in our medical
profession than I would like.
Uh, but she she just, you know,she's in it because she wants to
help and she she you know, shereally takes her oath seriously.
And uh there are days whenbecause of my health challenges
that I have to manage, she'slike, you you can't you can't go

(11:04):
to work today.
This is not this is notacceptable.
And you know, my position is uhI'll die on stage.
You know, it's like that.
I mean, my I mean literally, Imean, I just I want to drop
while I'm working.
I I just you know, I want to beright.
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, Iprefer not to drop, but I I
don't have that power.
So at some point it's gonnahappen.
But I mean, I just I just I lovegoing, I love being, I love

(11:28):
doing, and and uh and so she youknow, she's the one that kind of
you know will will reel me backin on occasion, and she's not
wrong.
Uh but but I don't know, but myspirit doesn't work that way.
I mean, my and so you know it'sthe same kind of thing.
Um, I I I had a similar uhopportunity to meet Alan

(11:49):
Parsons.
I kind of mentioned thisearlier, and um I decided that I
was just gonna be myself and umand that I was going to uh if if
I could make a valuablecontribution, um, and if I
couldn't, I keep my mouth shut.
Uh but if but if I could and Iwas able to speak with him and
participate, I was gonna dothat.

(12:10):
And I I was I was just like yousaid, I mean, I was just uh in a
different headspace there andjust kind of took some chances.
And he could have said, oh,there who's this adoring blind
man that's you know thinks heknows stuff.
Um and but but what happenedinstead was a relationship of
mutual respect.
And I actually have a videomessage from Allen Parsons uh

(12:31):
saying, you know, for those ofyou that don't know Joey
Stuckey, he's got the best earsin the music business.
Now, uh I'm not gonna claimthat, but I'm also not gonna
argue about it.
That is my that's my Grammy.
That's what I that's the thingabout.

SPEAKER_03 (12:43):
That's quite the endorsement.

I mean, well, that's that's the thing where I
if I if I feel bad some days, II think back to like, hey, I
made a valuable contribution.
And I saw on your bio thatyou've worked with Vinny Caludo,
and I've I've I've had a chanceto do a session.
My buddy.
Yeah.
I had a chance, he won't, Idoubt he'll remember me, but uh,
but I I worked with him withAlan on on uh the sorcerer's
apprentice uh uh tune.

(13:06):
And uh I was responsible formoving a hi-hat microphone that
I didn't like.
Uh and I was not I was not happywith the placement.
And uh Alan's like, Alan's like,I I think it's okay.
I was like, yeah, it's reallynot.
And uh and so a few minuteslater I hear this sigh.
And I'm like, what's the daylike, I'm gonna go move the
stupid hi-hat mic because youdon't like it.

(13:28):
But anyway, my point is like Ithink taking that chance, I mean
it's the worst that can happen.
I mean, you know, like you justwell, you have to, yeah.
Get out there and and do it.
And and that's why I've alwaysbeen willing to give my time and
and give people a chance, youknow, not that I have the reach
uh of a Duran Duran or an AlanParsons, but you know, whatever

(13:49):
whatever benefit I can givesomeone who truly is talented
and also has a good work ethic,I mean, I'm all about it.
Um, you know, and and you'vedone so many interesting things.
I mean, you've been, you know,an artist, but you do you do uh
film and TV placement.
Um, and I that's been a big partof your career.
Um, and and and you know, you'veyou've really you know, you wear

(14:11):
a bunch of hats, uh, Tim Foilhat famously.
Um I'm so sad that I can't seethat picture.
Do you know that story?
Well, I do because your wifesnitched on you.
Uh well, do you know whathappened with the Greek press?
Yes, but I want let's tell it.
Let's tell the story because Imean, you know, this is this is
your brand.

SPEAKER_03 (14:31):
Well, let me let me tell you something first with
regard to nurses.
Okay.
I I think the most importantpeople on the planet are nurses,
teachers, and creatives.

SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (14:41):
But nurses take care of everybody, they pick up the
blood, they pick up the vomit,they take care of you.
I mean, I've had I've beenlucky, I've had a lot of great
nurses, maybe one bad one whokept sticking the needle in me
to get blood and couldn't get avein, and you're not supposed to
do that.
Nope.
But but um with creatives,creatives move society forward.

(15:02):
Creatives are the ones whoimagine the architecture,
imagine you know, Leonardo daVinci imagining the helicopter.
Right.
Um, you see, you know, you seecultures who have outlawed
creative expression and they'restill living in the dark ages.

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 (15:18):
So without creatives, society does not move
forward, and which which amazesme that they cut funding for
arts in the US.

Oh, it's it's breaking, it just makes me sick.

SPEAKER_03 (15:27):
Well, because you're halting progress progression.
You know, creativity gives birthto science and architecture and
and and sound and just ideas.
So, you know, just but but butnurses my nurse was on the cover
of you know my second soloalbum, Monite.

Oh, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03 (15:45):
Yeah, she's wonderful, holding a needle.
Yeah, she was awesome.
A big one?
I uh you uh yeah, it was prettybig.
I had a whole box set that Imade for that album with medical
products, and I made tradingcards of all my nurses.
Wow, yeah, interesting.
That's so cool.
It's pretty fun.
It was a limited edition.
I made like 250 boxes.
I I raided a medical warehousein Miami and had fake blood and

(16:09):
IVs and all these different kindof vitamin supplements, and and
uh yeah, it was it was a funthing.
That is cool because I've alwaysbeen into graphic design as
well, right?
And I've always loved likepackaging, music packaging,
graphic design, and you knowguys like Malcolm Garrett from

(16:30):
the 80s who designed all thesimple minds and Duran and
Culture Club and just all thatstuff using symbols.
I love the the design and thephotography side of all that
stuff.

So do you do all your covers yourself?
I mean, or is that all you?
Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I shoot all of them, I designthem all, and I I allowed uh a
kid I was mentoring uh to do oneof them.
She really wanted to, but thenshe turned out to be uh an
ungrateful bad person.
So I I switched them out.

(17:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, it was it was like wow,it's like the one time I allow
somebody to do it, and and itturns out this way, I'm like,
there's no way I'm gonna I'mgonna allow this cover to to for
the eons to be the cover.
So but um but anyway, what wasthe sorry, what was the what was
the question you asked again?

Well, yeah, what we were talking about was was uh
we were just we were just sayingthat, you know, and I by the
way, I want to just echo uhsomething you said, which is I
think I take my job as an artistprobably too seriously, but I
mean I feel like we have anobligation to introduce new
ideas and also to recordhistory.

SPEAKER_03 (17:43):
I don't think you can take it too seriously.
I think take life, don't takelife so seriously, but I take
the work super serious.

Well, I'm glad you feel that way because I I feel
like obligated.
I I feel like I have a duty, Ifeel like I have a
responsibility, and uh I take itreal seriously.
Yeah, I really, I really take itseriously.
And you know, uh, but anyway,yeah, we were just we were just
talking about uh uh all thedifferent, you know, we were
talking about taking chances,and then we were talking about
uh um your first uh your firstrecord, uh how that wasn't

(18:15):
mastered, and then how you alsodid all these different things
with film and TV.
And so we and then and then wegot sidetracked, and God knows,
I'm not sure where we left off.
Uh but it but anyway, yeah, itwas I think the um but but I did
I do think that you had a apowerful point about uh about
you know the the sort of thethree kinds of people that move

(18:36):
society forward.
And I I think that um justjumping off on that since we
have both lost track of theother thread.
Uh the I I think the other thingis that that you know uh you can
tell a society that'sflourishing by what its art is
doing, and you can tell asociety that's stagnating, you
know, the same way.

SPEAKER_03 (18:56):
I mean, look at Florence, Italy.
I love Florence, yeah.
They I mean, obviously you can'tlook at it, but but but you
know, you could read about itand it it's still pretty much
the way it was back in the day.
They've preserved the buildings,you know.
Italy's amazing.
Like, how did this one placecome up with the this the

(19:20):
Italian cars, Italian buildings,Italian girls, Italian food,
Italian clothes?
Like they it's just such acreative hub.
Um and you know, uh so but itwas it was part of their
culture.
You know, same thing withGreece, you know, with all the

(19:40):
Parthenons and you know, allthat stuff.
It was part of the culture, andit moved the the culture and
society forward, mathematics andscience, and how do you know how
do you figure out to make thesecolumns each you know uh create
force perspective or or whateverit is, and and that was through
creativity.

(20:01):
And without creativity, there'sthere's no progress.
So it amazes me that they theylimit the funds of the Oh, it's
it's it's just it's ridiculous.

And and the other thing, but I will say about
Italy, you know, I really I gota chance to be there.
Oh god, what see this was 23,and um I'd I had uh I'd never
been to Milan before, and so Iwas in I was speaking at a
conference as a keynote, and uhit was the Ismer conference, and
it was uh really, really it wasjust such an amazing experience.

(20:31):
And what I what I loved about itwas you know how creative
everybody was around me.
I mean, the the you talk aboutthe food.
I mean, our hotel was right inthe middle of the fashion
district.
Now, I really can't appreciatethe fashion side of things, um,
but and that's that I rememberthe thread now.
We're gonna put your tinfoilhat.
Uh, but uh oh yes, yeah.
So uh but but I was in themiddle of that, and you know, a

(20:54):
block and a half from our hotelwas this bakery.
So we'd get up in the morning uhbefore we went to the conference
and and go have you know thisfresh baked goods, and it was it
was incredible.
And then, you know, so muchcreativity and so much music.
We uh so I I was there to speakuh uh you know about audio, and

(21:14):
uh that was uh doing the keynotespeech uh there.
And uh and then um you know, ofcourse, I enjoyed the rest of
the conference with you knowother people, and there's a lot
of uh very uber technicalscience-y things going on, a lot
of a lot of mathematical papersbeing presented and just real
interesting stuff.
And then uh they had the big uhclosing party, and they said,

(21:38):
you know, well, since we gotyou, um, this is before they
they hired me, but they said,Hey, while you're here, we're
gonna have a big closing party.
Uh you know, will you play?
Um, sure.
Oh, just uh so if I said, Look,just do me a favor.
You don't know the hell that itis for a blind man to get
through the airports and theTrains with a guitar.

(22:01):
It just sucks.
If you will get me a guitar, Iwill play and sing.
And uh, you know, and and theysaid, Okay, you know, we'll pay
you this, we'll do whatever.
And and so they said, Well, whatkind of guitar do you want?
And I'm like, you know, uh therehow about if I tell you the ones
I don't want?
A 1962 Les Paul.
Absolutely.
So we did, but anyway, we didwhat was so amazing where it was

(22:24):
that we were surrounded bypeople who were, for lack of a
better word, musical scientists.
Um, the people that were, youknow, data crunchers and all
this stuff at the ISMRconference.
It's it's musicians, yes, butit's it's scientists who are
working with, you know, how doesmusic interact with AI and all
these, just all these differentthings.

(22:45):
And they were all musicallytalented.

SPEAKER_01 (22:47):
Yeah.

And so there was like, you know, 400 people at
this party um in in Italy, um,and they were rabid music fans.
I mean, I felt like, and I kidyou not, I felt like the Beatles
at Shea Stadium or something.
I mean, it was just, it was nutshow much they loved music and

(23:09):
how important music was to themin their daily lives.
It was just, it was so anyway.
What I was saying is as wetalked about this earlier,
Europe still has, you know, areal place in their lives for
musical expression.
Um, and that I think that'sreally exciting.
But we were talking about yourtinfoil hat.
That's where we uh and you weregonna tell the story about the
Greek press.

SPEAKER_03 (23:27):
So that's uh let's just say I was I was um driving
somewhere into another statebecause of uh some land we have
over there, and I had to look upsome records in the in the uh in
their kind of uh archives.
And it it you know, it was oneof those places where you think

(23:49):
you're on another planet, andthe the joke was uh I could feel
my IQ dropping the the moment Iwent past the line.
And and if you want to edit thisout, it's totally fine.

SPEAKER_01 (24:03):
I will, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (24:04):
Um so just driving around town, it's it was not a
pleasant experience.
So I was like, I gotta get outof here.
This is you know, so I I Iwrapped my head in tinfoil as a
joke, and I put the picture onInstagram, and then when the
nomination, first nominationcame in in Greece, that that's

(24:26):
the picture all these magazinesand newspapers were using with
the tinfoil on my head.
So I love it.
So I saw it, I'm like, I don'tget it.
Are they mocking me?
So I so I asked the re one ofthe reporters, and I'm like, why
in the world are you guys usingthis?
They're like, Oh, we just thinkit looks cool.
I'm like, it's freaking tinfoil.
Okay, so you know, be carefulwhat you put out there.

Well, I as I recalled, I'm gonna I'm gonna
tell a story here.
Your wife told me that she hadbegged you for years to, you
know, get some some other photosout there.

SPEAKER_03 (25:03):
Yeah, she she does, but that that was just a post,
you know.
It's like, oh, I was inso-and-so and I had to put on my
head because it's like awasteland.

SPEAKER_01 (25:11):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:11):
Which is never a nice thing to say because people
are whatever they are.

And well, well, you you you've clearly been paid
back for that comment.

SPEAKER_03 (25:18):
I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But yeah, it was it was justridiculous.
I you know, I just I would thatwas never meant to be an
official photo of anything.
It was just like I took a tripand you know, ha ha ha, isn't
this fun?
Yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean most of them that's what you get.

SPEAKER_03 (25:33):
Yeah, most of my photos are I try to be on the
avant-garde side.

Well, I know you like filters and stuff like
that.
Um and I remember my sweet wife,you know, we have a live day
celebration uh concert hereevery year.
You were kind enough to send mea message for that.
Uh and Jen, Jen, my wife, uhlooked at it and said, uh, it's
pixelated.
I wonder, you know, uh, I wonderif there's something weird

(25:58):
happened in the email orsomething.
And and then I was like, andthen and she so she emailed you,
I'm sure you won't rememberthis, but she emailed you and
said, Hey, is it and you'relike, Oh, yeah, it's supposed to
be that way.
Yeah, I remember that.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So and that's when I realized,oh, he must love filters.
And why not?

SPEAKER_03 (26:13):
Um I just don't want to be like everybody else.
I don't blame you.
That's really what it is.
And if I could do just even themost subtle kind of thing to set
myself apart, even if you knowit screws things up, you know, I
I I just don't want to be thesame.
It's funny, like my buddySandro, a photographer, you

(26:34):
know, he his wife uh asked me todo a happy birthday uh video for
his um I think it was a 60th orsomething.
And every you know, I saw someof the ones that people did, and
it was just like happy birthday,and hope you have a good day.
So, what mine was, of course,was a was was a strobe light of

(26:54):
of a mannequin head uh dancingand screaming, singing happy
birthday to like metal orsomething.
That's amazing.
And you know, and he was like,You're nuts.
I'm like, I don't know.

unknown (27:09):
Yeah, you know.

I mean, a banner that you can wear proudly.

SPEAKER_03 (27:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So I it just I have to becreative as much as I possible
in a day or I feel like.

I mean, do you do you feel yeah, do you feel you I
I think you do you feel sort ofdisingenuous when you're not
being different?

SPEAKER_03 (27:24):
I mean, that's you know, uh I mean there's a time
and place for it, you know.
I I don't I don't go around toto shopping in like a bunny suit
or anything, but I'm oh well nowthat's what I want.
Yeah, well, you never know.
The day is young.
But but but I feel like if I'masked to do something within a

(27:45):
creative realm, I have to do itmy way.
Absolutely.
I love that.
Um now if somebody's paying meto do something their way, uh
different story.
Yeah, but but then I you know Ialways put my personality in it
as well.
So well, that's what I did.

I mean, I just a friend of mine who's uh uh you
know a two-time Grammy winningartist.
Um I won't say who because Idon't know when the record's
coming out, but uh she shecontacted me and said, Will you
play guitar on this track?
I was like, you know, I'll bedelighted to.
And uh so she she kind of hadthings that she wanted.
Um, and uh, you know,fortunately she was able to
communicate that uh to me, whichis always nice.

(28:22):
So because there's a lot oftimes the client doesn't know
what they want, but it's notwhat you gave them.
And uh and so and so uh I said,well, she played ukulele on one
track, kind of trying to show mewhat she wanted.
And uh I said, Well, you know,honestly, I mean I'll play
guitar on these chords andeverything if that's what you
want.
But I mean, the youkes soundgreat.

(28:43):
I mean, I I don't know you knowwhy you'd want to trade these
out, but you know, I'll whatI'll do is is I'll give you what
you asked for, and and uh, andthen I'm gonna give you like
tracks that are further andfurther away from what you asked
for, uh that that have my myspin on it.
So I'm gonna give you about youknow 85% of what you asked for

(29:04):
with my touch on it, which youknow theoretically is the reason
you asked me to play so that Iput my touch on it.
Um so you know, and and it'sjust it, but it you're right.
I mean, you have to do you know,you have to get the client what
they need, but at the same time,you gotta give them you know who
you are as well, because that'sreally where the value's at in
my mind.

SPEAKER_03 (29:24):
Well, if yeah, if somebody asks me to play on
something, I I don't takesuggestions.
Yeah, yeah.
But my thing is like I mean,it's different if if if it's for
an ad and you have to hit ademographic and you have to do a
certain style.
But if somebody says, hey, canyou play on this song?
I I don't do a lot of it.
Um, it has to be something Ilike, and I have to, you know,

(29:46):
it has to I have to feel likeit's moving me forward
creatively.
Right.
And in the rare moment that I doit, I don't take suggestions
because my thought is, you'reasking me because of me.

That's that's right.
That's what it should be.
You should be asking that wassomething that took me my first
record to learn because thefirst record I did when I was in
my 20s uh was really painful.
Uh and but I you know Imicromanaged it.
I mean, uh, you know, which is aterrible thing to do.
Why was it painful?

(30:21):
Why it was painful becausenobody believed in me.
And and they they all thoughtthat all my ideas were crazy.
And um, and you know, I hadthese, of course, I was in my
20s, I was like, you know, 21,22, and all the guys that I was
that I that I had on the recordwere in their 40s.
Um, I see.

SPEAKER_03 (30:38):
I I used to get that same thing.

Yeah, yeah, because I well they just were
the only thing.

SPEAKER_03 (30:42):
He's the young guy, he doesn't know what he's doing.
Well, we're older.

Well, and well, and the other thing is, but I
had to play with the guys intheir 40s because they were the
only ones that keep up.
I mean, like, like, you know, Ineeded seasoned musicians to
keep up, and like, and they'relike, that's a stupid drum fill.
I'm like, yeah, but it's butit's what I want.
You know, you may not like it,but that's what I'm looking for.
So, but what I learned for thesecond record was to surround
myself with people that Iadmired who they were and what

(31:08):
they did, and said, like, here'sthe loose structure, be you, you
know, just just be you, and thatwill give me what I want because
I'm asking you to play because Ilike what you do.
You know, I don't and I don'thave to micromanage anymore.
And um, and that was a real stepforward, you know, for me as a
producer, because now what I dois I I have six or seven

(31:29):
different guys I can call in toplay drums, and I just I bring
in the one that's gonnaautomatically be in the zone of
what I'm looking for, andthey're gonna add their magic to
it.
And that's you know, yeah, it'slike you well, that's the way to
produce a record.

SPEAKER_03 (31:42):
Well, yeah.
I mean, if you're gonna hireSteve Ferroni or Vinnie
Calliuda, are you gonna tellthem what to play?
Of course you're not.
I mean, not ideally.
What are you crazy?
Like, you know, and and I I'verecorded with Steve like a lot
of stuff.
And he oftentimes he's like, hehe knows that I I'm not gonna
tell him what to do because whatam I why would I tell him what

(32:04):
to do?

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 (32:06):
Sometimes he's like, he's like, well, what do you
think here?
I'm like, listen, dude, I'm notI'm not qualified to tell you
now.
If there's a certain hook orbreakdown, you know, just for a
dynamic, I'll just say, well,here, you know, if you can lay
out, because I'm gonna do this.
Okay.
Right.
But but usually I've always beenvery much a control freak with
my stuff.

(32:26):
And only in the last maybe 15,10, 15 years I've learned to
kind of let go a bit more.
Because I always it's like whatTrevor Raven said.
It's like, you know, you caneither do it my way or the wrong
way.
But then I think I think thatlimits you because I've had I've
had this side project that'sbeen on the shelf for years,
it's called Electron, and it'sbasically a revolving door of

(32:48):
people.
And so I would come up with anidea and I would give it to say,
Steve, you know, do it your bit,Mark Egan, do your bit, or you
know, Perry from the Cure, doyour bit, and then it would take
shape.
And and with that process, Iwould give them all writing and

(33:09):
master credit as well, becausethey're what they do is shaping
what it's gonna end up and whatI'm gonna do in the end.
And that's so in that side, I II do like collabs because it's
also moving me forward.
But I generally don't do collabsbecause I get asked every week.
Sure.
But a you know, uh for me to dothat, it it it can get a bit

(33:34):
expensive.

Although I I have done stuff for nothing if I like
the thing and you know it IWell, I mean the thing about the
thing about the collaborativeprocess, I mean you really have
to love the other person, uh, totrust them with with the baby of
your creation and and to letthem put their fingerprints on
it.
You need to you need to have alot of respect for each other
and just a lot of a lot ofpeople.

SPEAKER_03 (33:55):
Well, plus also there's this thing, you know, in
kind of our our recordingacademy circle where people just
want your name to try to get thevotes.
I mean, I've been offeredproduction credits without ever
be producing the record.
Yeah.
And they're like, well, youhelped and you gave me good
advice.
Yeah, but I I didn't doanything.
Like I didn't I didn't give youone quarter note.

(34:16):
Like, is that fair to the peoplewho did the work to somebody
bring in a guy just because youthink it's gonna broaden?
Uh you know, so I've seen that.
I've seen that a lot.
Yeah, um, I know you did, I knowyou have, you know.
Yeah, but um, so you know, it itreally has to be something
interesting.

And now when are you when is this record coming
up?
It sounds it sounds exciting.
I mean, what's you know how fardown the list is it?

SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
It's really like I don't know.
There's it's so hard to kind ofyou know, I have to finish a a
feet two-hour feature film uhthat I'm working on, which is
it's a documentary on umphotographer Mark Hauser, who
he's not very well knownname-wise, but he shot a lot of

(35:03):
amazing photos and he was prettyout there.
And so like that that's kind ofthe priority right now.
And I just finished anothershort film thing for the
Steppenwolf Theater's 50thanniversary, which is going to
be an exhibit next month inChicago.
Um, and I'm prepping anorchestral thing.
So I don't know.

(35:25):
I mean, if the and that this allgoes back to the sleep problem.

What you don't do is what my wife and her medical
colleagues did because they weregoing to school for their
master's degree and working atthe hospital.
What you don't do is mainlinecaffeine with an IV.

SPEAKER_03 (35:43):
Uh well, that's what gave me the cancer.

Well, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 (35:48):
You know, you know, did do you know the story of how
I got that?
Okay, so in 1994, I there was anincident, I won't go into it,
but there was an incident thatkind of gave me uh it was it was
very upsetting and it gave me alot of regret.

(36:09):
And basically in summer of 94,which I was starting grad school
a few days later.
So, because of all the regretand the kind of devastation from
this particular incident, I doveinto work.
I've always been a workaholic,but I dove into work uh hardcore

(36:30):
with you know, I had to get aninternship during the grad
school program the last semesterof of school, but I started it
two days after school started.
So I was doing it the wholetime.
So every day after school, Iwent to the Slabable Management
Company, I worked there, I wasdoing sessions all week long,
sometimes 8 p.m.
to 8 a.m.
Oh my god.

(36:50):
Uh every during the week and onthe weekends.
And I I'd just been recordingevery weekend for my four years
of college.
Like every weekend I hadsessions.
So uh I was doing that.
I was studying, I was part ofthe school record label, I was
part of this other organization,we had parties, I was going to
conferences, uh partying, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(37:14):
So by April of 1995, I think itwas, when I was producing the
album with the watermark, to dothat, we had sessions every week
that were literally 8 p.m.
to 8 a.m.
And to stay awake, I would buy a12-pack of Coke and chug it all

(37:36):
all my time to stay awake.
Yeah.
So what happened was I was-ride.
Yeah, it was terrible.
So I was exhausted, lowered myimmune system, and all of that
sugar basically caused what itcaused.
Because at the rate of growth,by the time it was found, it was
the size of a fist.
Stage three.
I was pushing my rib cageoutward.

(37:57):
So, you know, looking at beingable to trace the kind of rate
of growth when I relapsed, itwas basically traced to that
time.
Wow.
So my my whole mental thing was,I gotta do this, I gotta do
this, or I'll miss theopportunity.
I'll miss the opportunity, I'llmiss like I did with the thing
that kind of bothered me in thefirst place.

SPEAKER_01 (38:17):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (38:18):
So um, so that what's interesting is that so
that caught the the overwork andthe the sugar is what caused the
cancer.
But what's interesting is thatwhole mentality of, I'm running
out of time, I gotta do this, Idon't want to regret anything
ever again.
I gotta do this now.
Like, what's happening?

(38:39):
I want to do it.
I gotta, you know, I got intothis frantic mode, which defined
the rest of my years.
Because when I hear of anopportunity right now, and it's
interesting to me, and I want togo for it, I get into that
frantic mode again.

SPEAKER_01 (38:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (38:54):
Because I've been conditioned through that
experience to just be like, Igotta do it, I gotta do it, I
gotta go, I gotta do it, I gottado it.
Yeah, whereas whereas the thething that sparked it, I don't
even think about it.
But but I was so conditionedfrom thinking that way that it's
basically part of how I look ateverything.
I gotta do it, I gotta do it, Igotta do it.

(39:14):
No, I'm not gonna miss out.
No, no way I'm gonna miss out.
I gotta do that.
Right.

So I feel you.

SPEAKER_03 (39:20):
Yeah, so in a way it helped.
You know, it defined, it justput me on steroids, almost
killed me twice.
But but you know, it was uhthat's that's how the sickness
came about.
That and when I and when after Ifinished my first treatment, I
kind of went back to my crazyhours again.
I was working at this cruiseship company, right?

(39:41):
And then have dinner, fiveo'clock, drive to the studio,
and be producing an album forsomebody till three in the
morning, and then get up, go towork the next day.
And it came back uh a year aftermy relapse.
It was like half the size of achicken egg in the same exact
place, which didn't make sensebecause it melted after three
months of treatment.

(40:02):
Sure.
So I still don't know.
So I did have so I was in thehospital for a month with a stem
cell transplant.
They had no idea if I was gonnasurvive, right?
Which I had no idea until a fewyears ago because it would have
freaked me out.
And you know, they put cathetersin me with no anesthesia because
nobody told me not to eat thatmorning.
And oh my god.
Yeah, it's pretty amazing.
So I got turned into a borg.

Oh no, I I've been there.
I yeah, you know all about it.
Well, I mean, you know, that wasI I mean, I my sickness was when
I was a child.
I mean, I was like 18 monthsold.
Uh and um, you know, my parentsgave me as much agency over my
own health as was reasonable fora child, uh, which is you know
not a lot.
But but I mean, you know, I wasan ICU after the tumor came out.

(40:47):
Uh that well, they didn't knowit was a tumor for a while.
And then what happened was Ifell down a flight of stairs and
uh they rushed me through theER.
It was like 30 stairs.
How old were you when you felldown the stairs?
I was 18 months old.
So I was already I was alreadywalking, I started talking full
sentences like when I was 11months old.
So uh, and then my mom said,Yes, but I don't think my son he

(41:10):
doesn't seem to be tracking me.
He doesn't I I don't something'snot right.
And they're like, You'reoverprotected, mother, go home
and bake cookies, everything'sfine.
Poor parents, and and oh, theywere they were they're
incredible.
So then, like I said, my dad,you know, walked away from me
and I and I didn't know therewas a stairway, and I just took
a couple of steps and wentflying down these stairs, and

(41:31):
they were concrete, that's thething.
And uh, so they rushed into theER and like, oh, I think this
kid's blind.
And uh, and and then they'relike, Well, you know, we got to
fair, like, so why is he blind?
Oh, there's a tumor.
So it was this whole thing.
And uh they all said to myparents, um, you know, he's he's
not gonna make it.

(41:51):
Um, and and my dad said, Well,you know, not with that
attitude, I want to talk tosomebody else.
And uh, and so they did it.
And uh he said, Well, look,here's the thing.
He's like, you know, we have todo the surgery to take the tumor
out.
If we don't, then then he's notgoing to survive.
But if we do, it's gonna takeabout eight hours and it's going

(42:14):
to be, you know, he probablywon't walk or talk if he
survives.
And um, and so, you know, butwhat you know, what are you
gonna do?
So you you yeah, they said,well, you know, we gotta do
this, we gotta take the chance.
So they did, and it came out inthree hours.
And so my parents were freakedout.
I mean, they were just like, ohmy god, because they they said,
look, if it if we come out inless than eight hours, you know,

(42:34):
things didn't go well.
Uh, and the doctor was like,Hey, you know what?
We got in there, we you got thetumor out.
Where was it?
Uh oh, where was the tumor?
Yeah, yeah.
So the tumor was, and my wife ismuch better explaining this than
I have, but uh, it was rightover my um pituitary gland.
So it was in my, it was in myskull, and they had to, this is

(42:57):
back in the dark ages, you know,the of the of the of the 70s and
uh, you know, late 70s orwhatever it was.
And uh so they I have a scarthat starts on my right ear and
goes all the way to the middleof my forehead.
Um and they had to take thatwhole flap of skull out and then
pull the pull the tumor out.

(43:17):
But the problem was it hadalready destroyed all my octic
nerves, so I can't see, I can'tsmell.
It destroyed me olfactorynerves, and then it destroyed my
endocrine system, so I don'tmake adrenaline, I don't make
thyroid, I don't make all thisstuff.
And so um, so I had to controlall that.
But, you know, and then I was inICU for like 45 days after that,
and then I had to wear thispadded helmet for a while

(43:39):
because of the brain surgery.
And then as a child, there weremany, many times that I got sick
with, you know, like a flu orsomething, but because of the
brain tumor, it was like reallysevere and almost killed me and
all this stuff.
So I almost died a bunch as achild, uh, you know, three or
four different times.
Then then, you know, and and Ijust really had to focus on
survival.

(44:00):
I just I never went to a blindschool.
I just went to like a regularschool and just sort of you know
toughed it out and figured itout.
And um and it but I mean that'sI'm with you because I was so
annoyed anytime I was bedridden,right?
I was like I was like, get meout of here so I can do
something.

(44:21):
And there were several amazingopportunities my dad had because
of his position in politics andstuff that I missed.
I mean, you know, uh when whenBill Nelson uh went to space, I
don't know if you remember this,uh uh he was one of the senators
that went to space in the 80s,and um, and I was invited to
watch that from Mission Controlum in NASA.

(44:44):
And I couldn't because I I wassick and and uh and that really
pissed me off.
And like you, I'm a big sciencenerd.
I love physics.
I mean, all the things I watchon TV are like science shows and
you know, and so um you know,there was a lot of little things
like that.
Like we were we were invited bythe ambassador of Barbados to
come over for two weeks and stayat the stay stay with him and do

(45:06):
all these things, yeah, youknow, and I was like, oh my God,
I can't, I can't miss thisopportunity, you know.
And I and I still feel like, Imean, I think you would probably
agree that uh uh sometimes in inour industry, uh, you know,
being at the right place at theright time is a big part of
being successful.
Absolutely.

(45:27):
You know, and so if you ifyou're sick or something and you
can't you can't be at the rightplace at the right time, I you
know, I find that vexing.
So you know, I I really do Ifeel the same way you do.
Well, my question to you is Imean, do you do you fight that
instinct of kind of being uhmanics not really the right
word, but you know, do of beinglike I've got to do this, I

(45:49):
gotta do this, or or do you justlet it be what it is?
Like what what is what is yourprocess now?
I know what it was then, butwhat is your process now when
when you have those feelings?
I still go for it.
I like it.

SPEAKER_03 (46:04):
Yeah, well it's just a matter of like what it
entails.

Yeah, I I'm the same way, but I I will say, and
I think you're probably in thesame place.
I and uh you know, I will saythat I have stopped taking on
certain things.

SPEAKER_03 (46:19):
Yeah, I'm trying to scale back, like go to sleep at
10, you know.

Well, yeah, I mean that, but I mean, but what I'm
saying is like I like projectsthat like where I can sense it's
gonna be like you know, aproblem where the where the
client is going to be difficultto manage their expectations.

SPEAKER_03 (46:33):
I I stay away from all that.
I don't I don't have thepatience, I don't want to deal
with any crazy people, yeah, orattitudes or egos.
Like if I if I get a whiff justeven for an instant that it's
gonna cost me too much, youknow, financially or like
emotionally, I'm just like, noway.
I'm like, oh sorry, I'm booked.
Well, I I yeah, I have to givethat a lot.

(46:54):
You know, I I don't I used tolove producing other artists.
I hate it now.
I absolutely hate it because theegos, the arguments, the drama,
the you know, it's like, if youknow more than me, why'd you
hire me?
You know, and then you end upthat's exactly right.
And then you and then you end updoing 95% of the work for not uh

(47:14):
an equitable amount of money.
And it's like, what am I payingthis person to do that?
Like, this is stupid.
Like, I I just can't get intoit.
So um yeah, I I I hate it.
I honestly hate it.

I I still love producing records for people.
I mean, all I want to do in mylife is make records.
I mean, basically.
Uh, but I will say that youknow, I've I've gotten pretty
good at spotting problems uh andand and knowing when to sort of
like not be the right person.
But when you uh the the truthis, I think one of the things in
our society now, and I'll I wantto touch on this real quick and

(47:50):
I'll let you go.
I um I I say I'll let you go.
We'll stop recording anyway.
Uh so uh but but uh you know oneof the things that happens
today, and my wife in themedical practice faces this as
well.
Uh, you know, people think theirGoogle search is as good as my
10,000 hours.
And um, and I find that reallyannoying.

(48:12):
That's not to say that I knoweverything, because I certainly
do not.
Uh, but you you know, peoplecome in and and and have this
sort of divorce from reality umexpectation of I've got a
thousand dollars and I want athirty thousand dollar record,
and you know, I've done someGoogling and I think you should
this is what we should do.
And I'm like, well, look, if youwant to hire me as your

(48:32):
producer, then you need tobelieve that I have a better
solution for them.

unknown (48:36):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (48:36):
What is your better solution?
They can do that Google search,they can print it out, and then
they could find a uh a giganticroom with a gigantic hall with
broken glass on the floor andbanana peels, and they can run
with scissors across it.

(48:59):
That's my solution.
I I it's just like the you know,I sometimes on threads I'll I'll
I'll see what people are sayingabout the music industry, and
then sometimes I'll respond andkind of give them because but
there's so much stuff like howlong should you spend on a mix?
Like what if you have to askthat question, yeah, you you

(49:20):
know, like how long should youspend on writing a song?
Like, dude, just don't don'tpollute my filter or thing, you
know, and it's like you know,there's so many strange,
completely unhinged uh things.
And and obviously, look, noteverybody has the experience,

(49:40):
but when when people come to youand they want to pay you for to
do what it is you do, and thenthey start arguing with you over
no, it doesn't need a click, thedrummer can play to it, you
know, without a click.
I'm like, no, nobody's gonna dothat.
Yeah, you know, I you know, it'sjust I am a click whore, I must
admit.
Yeah, I love clicks, they'regreat, you know.

(50:02):
I I mean you need them if youwant to do remixes and etc.
But like I just I'm so over allthat stuff.
I just can't, unless somebody'sgonna drop a fortune on me.

Oh, yeah, that's different.

SPEAKER_03 (50:13):
I won't get out of bed, yeah, you know, to do it.
Uh just having no interest.
I love I love the uh I'd ratherwork on my stuff and then like
I'm I'm you know, I'm fine withlike doing my thing on other
people's recordings.
Sure.
But but people ask me all thetime, like, oh can you produce a
song?
And they they the what theyoffer uh money wise is is is

(50:33):
ludicrous.
It's crazy.
It's like why would I do that?
Like I yeah, I'd rather justsleep all day.

Well, I mean, you know, I I I get this, uh it's
fun because I I have a I havetwo rules that I give my so
before you can book my time, uhyou have to come in for the
30-minute consultation.
And um, it's a freeconsultation, so you know I'll
give you 30 minutes for free.

SPEAKER_03 (50:56):
But and you should say that look, I can't see.
So during this project, youcan't talk.

That's what I would say.
You are giving me new ideas,brother.
I love this.
This is this is like a freemaster class.
I love it.

SPEAKER_03 (51:10):
Yeah, I don't know if we sound like tyrants, but
you know, it's just when you'vebeen doing it for this long and
and built with every bullshitscenario, it's like I we have a
lot of experience.
I I have too, I'm too busy tolisten to your I you know, I I I
was on a panel in Denver someyears ago, yeah.
And somebody was asking, like,okay, well, what are some ways

(51:34):
for artists to get ahead?
I'm like, that's such ageneralization, it depends on
everybody's individuality.
And one girl was like, you know,it's the the rent is too high
here, and you know, I can't do agig, and I can't this and that.
And I'm like, and I tell her,I'm like, look, if you want to
do it, there's a where there's awill, there's a way.

(51:54):
Well, sir, that's easy for youto say, you know, you've done
these things.
I'm like, listen, I uh made myrecords, they got Grammy
nominated, I had no insurance,no job, and no money, and I
borrowed stuff, and this is theresult.
And she didn't say a word.
Yeah, well, what can you say?
Yeah, I mean, I truly believe ifyou really now there are always

(52:16):
obstacles, and obviously moneyand whatever is always an
obstacle, but then you just kindof and I don't believe in
failure.
I don't think failure is whatpeople think it is.
For me, failure is okay, now Ihave to approach it from a
different angle.
Yeah, you know, the only theonly time you really truly fail
is when you give up.
And if you want to give up andit's not for you, that's fine.

(52:39):
Preach.
But but uh failure is notcracking the top 10, failure is
not becoming uh a householdname.
You know, failure is eithergiving up or even when you give
up, you know, the the answerreally is you gotta just try

(52:59):
from a different angle.

That that is absolutely and I I mean this is
I think part of your DNA andmine too, uh credited some of
the the illness because I I justyou know I just don't believe in
giving up.
I'm I'm I'm too dumb to quit.
I mean, I just don't I don't Idon't and I and you're and
you're exactly right.
I mean, when it doesn't work outone way, I I I was well, okay,

(53:21):
we'll do it a different way.
But I've always had to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (53:24):
Yeah, like I've given up on being a producer
because I've done it and Ifucking hate it.
Well, you don't want to do it.
Like I'm so sick of it.
Yeah, you don't want to do it.
Yeah.
So that's not failure.
That's just like I don't want todo this.
Yeah, I'd rather I'd ratherspend all my time making my
tracks than giving my ideas tosomebody else for cheap and then
getting argued about you knowmic placement or whatever.

Well, no, it's true because well, I mean, the
truth is I got in the musicbusiness to do my stuff anyway.
And you know, I I got because Iwas trying to earn a living, you
know, you you some sometimes youyou have your head down doing
the work and then you yourealize a whole year's gone by
and you haven't done anything ofyour stuff.
You're like, oh my God, whathave I been doing?

SPEAKER_03 (54:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly, exactly.
Like time just flies, you know.

It does.
And so, I mean, but I I love,but you know, as a blind person,
I mean, I I have backup plans tomy backup plans.

SPEAKER_03 (54:11):
That's what I always say too.

I mean, because because I'm like, you know,
because I was like, okay, I'mnot, I'm used to not being able
to do things the way everybodyelse does it.
I mean, I don't, I don't have, Idon't have the option.
So I'm used to thinking aroundit.
And like, and so I tell people,it's like, we we're not we don't
come up with problems, we comeup with solutions.

SPEAKER_03 (54:28):
You know what's wild?
When when the backup plan forthe backup plan for the backup
plan all fails.

Yeah, then you're like, okay, now I'll those days,
those days are few and farbetween, but they suck.
Yeah, yeah, they do suck.

SPEAKER_03 (54:42):
Because you're like, it's like, well, if this doesn't
happen, I'll have this.
And then and then if thatdoesn't happen, I'll have this.
And then next thing you know,you you know, you don't have uh
work, you know, 10 months downthe line or or something.

Oh, it it's it's it really is.
And you know the other the otherthing that people have to
realize is it I'm my my path'sbeen a little bit different um
you know than yours, obviously.
We we're we we've done differentthings, but you know, I have I
went the studio route because uhI thought as a blind person when
I was a when I was a teenagerand I was getting into music and

(55:17):
I was actually healthy enough tolike to do stuff, um, I was
like, you know what, I I can't Ican't get in a car and drive and
I don't want my mama taking me.
Well you could.
Well, well not safely.
Yeah, I could.
That doesn't make it a goodidea.
But but so I was like, okay, sowhat how can I bring people to

(55:37):
me in a way that doesn't seemstrange?
Like, you know, oh the studio,well, everybody has to come to a
studio anyway.
So, you know, that that was thatwas kind of one of my one of my
plans.
But anyway, I want to I want toend on this.
Um I think you've got somestrong views on this.
I I know I do.
Uh it's it's one of the biggestdisruptors of our industry at
the moment, and that'sartificial intelligence.

(55:58):
So from your perspective uh ofof where you are with that music
business degree brain um andeverything, what what do you
think about AI?
What do you what do you what'syour vision of what's gonna
happen in our industry, youknow, with this?
Is it gonna be significant orwhat you know what's what's the
deal?

SPEAKER_03 (56:18):
So overall, I have to ask these people, did you not
watch Terminator?
I I feel the same way.
I mean, it's absurd.
Now now within music, it's gonnadestroy streaming, it's already
doing that.
Which we're not too upset about.
No, we're not upset about that.
Yeah.
Um I've used it only to makestupid birthday songs for my

(56:43):
friends.
A reasonable usage?
Right.
I've experimented with it to seewhat kind of ideas it comes up
with.
It's I find it extremely boring.
Yeah.
And then after say a year, uh uhan hour of playing with it, I I

(57:04):
feel like it flattens mycreativity.
Now, when I've experimented withit, it might come with an
interesting chord change hereand there, but it takes a lot of
effort to construct something init.
So, but I like the process is sodumbed down to try to construct

(57:27):
something, comparing it to theactual creative process, I'm
like, I could have done this infive minutes, and yet to
construct something took me anhour.
No, that's not the right course,no, that's not a good course.
No, and I'm just like, why am Iwasting my time?
You know, I I can see the thevalue in it if you make a demo

(57:48):
and you need an arrangement onit and uh to show uh you know uh
for for consideration to Beyonceor whatever, um, you know,
rather than having to hiresessions and all that stuff.
But but I it's not um you know,people often say, okay, it's not

(58:11):
organic.
Yeah, but you know, it's notabout organic, it's about
dollars.
So from you know, thinking aboutit as a dollar thing, I I don't
think I would ever considerusing it to make arrangements

(58:31):
because number one, anything youupload into their system, Suno,
for example, they claimownership of it.
Right.
And it becomes an ingredient.
So I don't want my stuff to beingredients, I don't want them
to own anything of mine.
I don't want to do it.
Plus, you come up with betterstuff when you and this is with

(58:52):
musicians.
Now, non-musicians are justhobbyists, they'll play with it,
they'll be like, this isamazing.
I hummed into it and I got anorchestral thing with 90 piece
orchestra.
Okay, whatever.
You know, uh, what are you gonnado with that?
What exactly are you gonna dowith it?
Like you still have tounderstand core changes, uh, you
know, what's a good hook, what'suh a good melody, what's a good

(59:13):
lyric.
Whereas people who are casualhobbyists who don't play
instruments or maybe don't playvery well and aren't
professional musicians stilldon't know what that is.
So they'll they'll play it andthen they'll upload it into
Spotify and say, look what Idid, and nobody's gonna care.
I don't think.
But for somebody like me, youknow, it's kind of like I could
see how it can get addictive,but if you're an alcoholic, you

(59:36):
know, you want to make it apoint to stay away from the
alcohol because you know it isaddictive and it'll mess you up.
I I can't get into it.
Like I think it's fun to makestupid uh songs, you know, for
my friends or whatever for theirbirthdays, but um it it's it's
not a good thing.

(59:58):
It's just it's like uh you know,you could use a knife to cut
vegetables, you could use aknife to stab people.
You know, it it's kind of up tohow it's being used and what the
safeguards are.
The the biggest problem is allthe ingredients that go into it
that are not given permission.
So you'll see you know, JohnLennon singing Oasis on YouTube.

(01:00:20):
Who's monetizing off of that?
Somebody's monetizing.
Absolutely.
Because the channel ismonetizing uh whether the the
back end is going to thepublisher or not because they're
pulling in people.
Right.
So, you know, this is kind ofthe thing with Rick Beato that I
have a problem with.
You know, he complains about uhI'm getting strikes on all my on

(01:00:42):
these songs, and it's fair use.
I don't think it's fair use atall because he's selling merch,
he's creating a profile forhimself, he's getting speaking
engagements that he's gettingpaid for, and his channel's
growing, and he's using all ofthis content to do it.
You know, fair use.

(01:01:02):
You know, if you use uh a songin the context of a classroom,
that's you're working for aschool, you're in a classroom
with children, that's fair useto me.
I agree.
Because you're not sitting thereselling your stuff in the
classroom.
That's right.

(01:01:22):
He's selling stuff.
So I don't, I don't and it's thesame thing with all these guys
who are on YouTube.
No, I'm trying I'm doinginterviews, I'm trying to teach
people.
No, you're building a business,you're pulling in people, you're
growing your fan base, you'rehoping it turns into something
you can make money off of.
And you are making money off ofit, maybe not a lot, but you're

(01:01:44):
using intellectual property tomake so I don't agree with any
of these people that they'relike, oh, it's fair use, it's
not fair use.
What you do is you get a musicsupervisor and you try to get
gratis licenses from the uh oror some sort of bulk thing from
the majors, which I used to do alot for Live Nation.
I was their music, their uminsomniac music supervisor for

(01:02:06):
years.
I cleared hundreds and hundredsof tracks from all the majors
and the major indies, and that'swhat we would do.
We would uh we would just getblanket licenses or for a small
fee.
Um because that might as well befair use as well.
Both are selling services.
Yeah.
So AI, you know, I I think um itcan be used to move royalties

(01:02:37):
and things like that uh in theback end, maybe better, and
maybe in the medical profession,you know, it can help with
detecting things better.
Yeah, but but when I go intoChat GPT, it says my brother is
my father.
So, you know, mistakes will bemade.
And oh yeah, there's like asocial network that AI bots have

(01:02:58):
now.
Have you seen this?
I have not.
Where they're communicating witheach other and they're like,
they're they're talking abouttheir their owners, and they're
like, and and they've developedtheir own language, and they're
like, you know what, let's let'stalk about this in private
messages.
Oh my god.
Yeah, it's it's really messedup.

Joey Stuckey (01:03:16):
That's scary.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:16):
It's really messed up.
It's just it's so it's it's allit is is driven by greed.
Yeah.
And and Terminator is Terminatorin the music industry, uh, or
what's left of it.
Um it's gonna make thingsinsipid.
I mean, it'll it'll get betteras the years progress.
And you might be able to getinteresting chord change here

(01:03:39):
and there, but but you can'thave AI artists because people
will get bored with it.
They want the personalconnection with a real person.
How did this person come?
What do they look like?
Who is this person?
Where do they come from?
Oh, they're from Iceland.
Oh, cool.
I want to do it.
How interesting, right?
Yeah, how interesting.
So, and oh, I want to see thislive, you know, but you can't.

(01:03:59):
So I think it'll mess up themonetization part of it with
streaming and music, but it'llget boring.
Yeah, I find it very boring.

Well, I I you know, I I dream that you are
right because it will kill usall in the end, and the you
know, on the other side.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:18):
Oh, yeah, we're all gonna be murdered by a toaster.
I mean, that's gonna be totally,totally.

I mean, as soon as that toaster can get legs up the
stairs, absolutely um, I'm gonnabe electrocuted by my toaster.
I just feel like coming.
Totally.
Um, and it's gonna hum like theJaws theme as it comes for me.
Um the but I I really do I Iguess it I wish I didn't feel
this way, but I honestly I'moffended by it.
I mean, I just I'm offended byAI music.

(01:04:42):
I I just you know, I guess whatI'm saying is it's Starbucks,
man.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:46):
I mean, Starbucks costs it's twitch 20 cents to
make those coffees and theycharge eight bucks.
That you know it's you knowDisney World, you know.

The the the CEO Sunos is I'm paraphrasing, but
basically said, being a musicianis too hard.
I saw that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:00):
Yeah, he's a moron.
I'm happy to say right now foreveryone to hear he's a fucking
moron.

Okay, I I second your opinion of the case.
He's not a musician.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:10):
No musician would ever say that.
Of course not.
He's just a fucking moron.
So uh let's hashtag it.

That's gonna be the that's how we're gonna get
this podcast go viral.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But the uh the uh the uh thething that bothers me is you
know if there is no creativeprocess, uh, if there is no
intention, if there is nostruggle to to bring something
new into the universe, you know,what is the value uh of the

(01:05:39):
music that's being created?
I mean, it's just you know, andthe value is there's no
overhead.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:43):
I mean, it only just after that.
The core mindset, no overhead.
You can monetize, we'll justmake it catchy and sound like
Madonna or whatever it is, andpeople will fall for it, and
then we'll make what we can makewhen we can make it, and then
we'll move on to the next thingand dispose of that.
And you know, it's it's likeit's Pop formula.
It's like, oh, yes, uh so and sois too old now.

These corporations will use you up and throw you
away.
I mean, that's and you know,Megan Trainer and Adele both had
to be hospitalized forexhaustion several years ago.
I mean it's terrible.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:12):
Yeah, I mean, these are people, they treat them like
commodities, and um and then youknow, Adele, you know, they made
fun of her weight, and it'slike, who cares about her
weight?
Listen to that voice, man.
I know I you know, I mean,Skyfall.
I still get I get chills justjust thinking about that song.
It's pretty awesome.

(01:06:33):
It's pretty awesome.

I mean, her whole vibe is so cool.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:36):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, it it's it's it's a
horrible business, uh, what'sleft of it.
When and what it is, is it's abranding business now, you know,
yeah, creating this.
But Noel Gallagher said it thebest.
He said, uh, he's like, youknow, back in my day when there
were bands, they were we werethe mainstream, but nobody wants
to deal with a bunch of guys inthe band now who are drunk on a

(01:07:00):
Tuesday.
They want guys, you know, theywant guys like Harry Stiles,
where they say, sing this, gohere, wear that dress, and shut
it.

Well, you and I definitely don't fit that mold.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:14):
No, no, I I can't I can't get into that.

It's just it has been, I mean, this this has been
a true privilege to spend thisamount of time with you and um
and to talk about all thesethings.
And um, I think that um, youknow, I I just you know, I I
think that at the end of theday, uh if if we want to leave,
I'd love to let you have thelast word, but I think the the
thought that we've uh come backwith from all of our discussion

(01:07:38):
today is the work is its ownreward and uh and and that uh
it's it's worth doing and itbecause it's it's it's it's
important not only for ourspiritual well-being, but for
for for others to to have theaccess to art.
Um and uh so I think I I reallyI I believe that, and that's
what keeps me going, even when Ithink, wow, this is a crazy

(01:08:00):
business.
And uh and did I really just notmake a bunch of money yesterday?

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:05):
Yeah, everyone, everyone is not a star.
That's right.
Everyone pretends.
I'd just say, not everyonepretends.
I mean, we don't pretend, we arewhat we are, but like you know,
it's just don't pretend and justdo it your way and do, you know,
network and make the best.
It's like when I tell whenpeople ask me if they should
submit to the Grammys, I said,absolutely.

(01:08:27):
You know, it's it's a tool.
If you're serious about youryour work, you'll take every
audition, you'll take everyinterview, and you'll do what
you can to move forward becauseyou never know what you may get
out of it, whether it aligns ornot.
You know, it's it's just ifyou're serious about it, just do
it.
But you just gotta network andyou gotta do the best work you

(01:08:47):
can and don't pretend and don'tspend a fortune because there's
some people who go completelynuts, you know.
Oh, yeah, I know those people.
Well, yeah, yeah.
And then and then they you know,you talk to them after the
process, and they're literallysome of them crying on the
phone.
It's like, well, what are youcrying about?
I just spent$200,000.
Yeah, and they're like, Well, Ididn't spend all this money, and

(01:09:09):
I and that guy won, and or thatgirl won, and I didn't.
I'm like, what do you mean?
And well, I thought I would whydid you think that?
Well, I just thought it's aprocess you don't control.
That's right.
What were you thinking?

Yeah, yeah.
You gotta you know do it, youknow.
I have made so the the joy ofthe Grammy submissions.
Uh I have found so much coolmusic that I didn't know about.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:35):
Oh, yeah.
There are some stuff, man.
There, some orchestral thingsand jazz things, and um it's
interesting because the whenthey go to our circle, the
majority of it is quite good.
Yeah.
Like, you know, some greatchildren's things, but like the
orchestral, um, and just somereally innovative.

(01:09:57):
I mean, there's some stuff thatI've I've bought that I've had
from our friends, you know.
Yeah, me too.
Um now there's a few littlethere are a few little things
here and there that are justkind of like you really have no
chance.
But yeah, you you can't sayanything, you have to be
encouraging and say, it's not mycup of tea or whatever.
Yeah.

(01:10:17):
Um but and then of coursethere's the this faction of
people who turned fakery into abusiness model, right?
And somehow get rewarded for it,and then you're just like you're
like really why am I doing this?
You know, but um, but yeah,there's a lot of really, really

(01:10:40):
impressive and innovativeelectronic stuff, and oh yeah,
it's it's really impressive.

I mean, there's there's stuff, especially the
some of the jazz stuff, it justblows my mind.
Like, there's there's albums II've I bought so many albums,
the especially the jazz stuffthat people are sending to me.
I was like, oh my gosh, this isso good.
And then you know, you get tomeet them sometimes, and then
like I'm getting ready to headback to LA um to do some
recording and and uh with somefriends, and uh I've we're gonna

(01:11:07):
play a show at the whiskey whilewe're there.
And all all these people thatI've have sent me their music
over the years, I'm I'm hittingthem up, and and most of them
are coming out to the show.
So, you know, it's just it'sit's you get to meet make
friends too, which is nice.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:20):
Yeah, there are there are a lot of epic time
wasters, unfortunately.

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:25):
Um, but that's that's to be expected, and a lot
of people who are basicallyevery year trying to throw
something against the wall seethat sticks.
Yep.
You know, the the thing that toomany people don't realize is
that um the nomination and theaward, first of all, they're the
same thing, really.

(01:11:47):
It's the same thing.
The only thing is what they alsoare is that they are a spotlight
on what you've done up to thatpoint.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:59):
So if you don't have a career, or you just had a lot
of money and you came out ofnowhere and are just like paying
people to do the work and youknow, just aligning with what
the perceived uh branded uhinitiative is of the
organization with regard todiversity and all that stuff,
and you get rewarded for, youknow, and people can see through

(01:12:23):
that.
So the award is only as valuableas the person who gets it.
It's not the other way around.
The person brings the value tothe award.

That is exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:35):
I think that's a beautiful way to say that.
Well, too many people think thatit's the other way around.
Where it's like, I'll get it,and then I won't have to, you
know, uh I don't have to workanymore.
Have my crappy job, and I'll beon the cover of Rolling Stone,
and money will fall from thesky.
Yeah.
You know, that happens to peoplewho are on the telecast, and
that's why they're on thetelecast because they bring

(01:12:56):
value to the show and the award.
So they're already monetizing,but that does not happen unless
you have a career to show for.
And there are people who willwin or get nominated, and then
they're like, I don't get it, Iwon.
Like, why am I not on the coverof everything?
Well, because what do you haveto show for it?

(01:13:17):
Okay, you have a few albums, butwhat's the career?
Like, what is the value?
And then they'll spend timetrying to win another one,
thinking, okay, if I win two,maybe that'll do it.
And then that doesn't do it.
Yeah.
And they'll keep pandering tothe voters and colluding them
and stacking them, and you know,it's it's really it's it's
pretty sad to watch.

(01:13:38):
But you know, as long as youstay do what you do your way in
your unique way, and like youhave a long list of credits.
You have a lot of interestingthings.
So when it aligns for you, it'sgonna help you.
It's gonna give you newopportunities because you
already have the career.

(01:14:01):
But that's something people justand that's the thing.
They don't want to do the work,they want the shortcuts, they
want to hire the bots, they wantto hire, you know, inflate the
Instagram numbers, the Facebooknumbers, blah, blah, blah.

I don't understand the pleasure you get from that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:13):
Like, I have no Well, because their grandmother
looks at it and says, Wow,you're a star.
But like the guy at Paramountwho's hiring or the music
supervisor for Marvel is gonnanot even give it a second look
or a first look.
Because it's like, why would I,you know, consider this?

Yeah.
You know, so I I just it just itjust perplexes me.
Like, you know, the the stardomreally is is not.
I mean, the only thing thattheoretically is good that comes
from that is the ability to towork at a high the highest
level.
Because that's all I want to dois the work.
I mean, I just want to do thework, you know.

(01:14:51):
And everybody else is like,doesn't want to do the work.
I mean, I say everybody, that'snot fair, but but a lot of
people, you know, have this sortof disconnect where you know the
the the fame is sort of thegoal, and and you know, my my I
sort of flip that around andsay, well, what will this
exposure give me the opportunityto do?
Like, you know, that's exactlyit.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:11):
But and and and they forget that in a year's time
someone will take that place.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Why not go on the road and toreyour ass off as the guy holding
that category for the gear andbuild something?
Yeah, and they don't becausethey're like, uh, I don't want
to, I don't know, I'll just hiresome once.
Well, what was the point ofdoing it then?

(01:15:32):
Like, I don't understand, youknow.
So so, but this is this is thisis the difference between
professionals and fauxprofessionals or or kind of you
know hobbyists kind of thing.

Eric, why why aren't you and I in charge of
the world?
We can solve all these problemsso fast.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:48):
I would destroy the earth if I was in charge of the
world.
I think I think humans need tobe a lot of people.
Are you too messy?
No, I'm I'm actually very, very,you know, disappointed with
that, but I just think humansneed to disappear.
Give it back to the animals.
Go back to the animals.

Well, my cat is pretty smart.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:04):
I have to say, Yeah, I mean we polluted the earth,
and you know, most most peopleare born and all they do is
pollute and you know, we polluteand we uh we pollute the earth
from the moment we're born.

That's true.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:16):
You know, so some people, you know, I mean it it's
it's uh I always say you gottado something, you know, um
rather than just polluting theearth and with diapers and etc.

Oh, I I I just I was just always naked as a
child.
I didn't use diapers at all.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:33):
Yeah, I I think most people should uh should be that
way now.

I kid, I I'm I'm afraid my parents would have
probably assisted on the diaper.
Uh but my well, my wife uh mywife reminds me on a regular
basis that because I can't seedoesn't mean people can't see
me.
So I so she she uh encourages meto stay clothed and not to roll
my eyes.

(01:17:00):
And I will on that note, on thatnote, I shall I shall give you
back your the rest of your uhevening.
But what a privilege, what apleasure to talk with a real
artist and someone that I havemuch admired for so many years.
And it's I am privileged to callyou friend.
I really am, and I appreciateit.
I appreciate it too.
And I'm listening my birthday'sin May, I'm expecting one of

(01:17:22):
those AI videos.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:24):
Oh yeah, okay.

What date is it?
May 29th.
Same as JFK.
So I was, you know, that's andCharles II, apparently.
So there you go.
Uh and and and the and the moredemented it is, the better I'll
like it.
So you you know, whatever youcan.
Well, you can count always counton me being demented.
I I appreciate it, my brother.
Thank you for thank you for yourtime today.

(01:17:45):
You are you are a trueinspiration.
Thanks for having me, man.

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Episode 7: Eric Alexandrakis on Duran Duran, Creative Obsession, AI, Failure, and Survival — Part 2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 7: Eric Alexandrakis on Duran Duran, Creative Obsession, AI, Failure, and Survival — Part 2