Episode 8: Thom “TK” Kidd on Analog Decisions, Producer Psychology, AI Tools, and Staying the Course

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joey Stuckey (00:00):
Welcome once again to the Stuck on Sound podcast.
I'm your host, Joey Stuckey.
And, you know, I am constantlyamazed, uh, frankly, uh at the
incredible level of guests thatcome on the show and just how
interesting they all are.
And today is one of my favoritepeople, uh, TK Tom Kidd, and he
is absolutely such a neat guy.

(00:22):
And um, boy, I'll tell you what,we're gonna we're gonna hear
some, I'm sure, tall tales, butalso uh I think you're gonna
probably walk away withsomething you didn't know
before.
So, Tom, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
I'm gonna call you TK from now on, but uh please
do, and you are incredibly waytoo kind.
Thank you, my friend.

Well, just put the check in the mail and we'll
everything will be fine.
Done, done.
And you know, as a blind man, Ican't tell how many zeros are on
it, so it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
I got consider it gigantic then.
Yes.

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
You you should yeah, and youknow, I can't tell what the
decimal point is either, so youjust you know have have fun.
Um listen, I want to tell you,um, you know, you're a real uh
down-to-earth fellow.
Um, but I I just wanted to letyou know that uh when we met uh
because of our service to therecording academy, um I I just

(01:13):
knew instinctually um that youwere someone that was gonna be
one of my friends you know forthe rest of my life.
And also uh there's just an airabout you of um uh of of
competence and talent.
I don't know how to explain ithonestly.
Uh but it but it what's reallytrue.
And and then um, you know, so Ihonestly didn't know much about

(01:39):
your career, but I could justtell that you were legit.
I mean, you you you knew whatyou were doing.
There's a there's a comfortlevel that people who have
worked hard to be good at theircraft, you know, exude.
And um uh, you know, and so so Ididn't really know a whole lot
about it.
And so I I uh I just I ask youon this show uh because because

(02:00):
of just my general impression ofyou that I've had for the past
you know many years.
Uh and then uh as I always do, Imake everybody send me a bio
because we have it for thelaunch page and you know all
this stuff.
And then I read about some ofthe things you'd done, and and I
was like, wow, I was I wastotally right, but also wow, I
didn't know this.

(02:20):
So so uh what I really want to Ialways you know we're gonna
we're gonna talk about you knowa few different things and and
uh I I tell everybody ahead oftime that this is a podcast for
nerds by nerds, and it's uh it'stotally about getting into the
weeds on art, technology, andthe business of music.
And of course, the other, well,of course I want it to be

(02:41):
entertaining and all that kindof good stuff.
The other thing is um I do feellike it is my mission uh to
combat uh ignorance wherever Ifind it uh and to try and
enlighten people and give them alittle piece of a little a
little nugget or two ofinformation that they can take
away from the broadcast and usefor the furtherment or

(03:02):
betterment of their lives.
And and and we I take that veryseriously.
So, you know, we'll we're gonnatalk about many things, but the
the thing I always like to startwith and it is this is the
origin story of the guests,because you know, everybody's
path to being in this businessof audio and music and art and
all this kind of stuff is reallyfascinating.
And and you just never know, youknow, where it comes from and

(03:25):
and all these all these myriadways of you know becoming part
of our industry.
And and you know, people ask me,like, you know, how how did you
manage to stay in the musicbusiness so long?
And you know, my answer is toodumb to quit.
I mean, I just you know, I mean,I do think this my wife, as you
know, uh is an advanced practicenurse, and I do think that

(03:46):
besides the medical trade, themusic business is the other
craziest business uh in theworld.
Um, but I just want to know,like, when did when did you
figure out that you wanted to bein this industry and and what
was it that led you, whatwatershed moment kind of led you
to, okay, this is what I'mdoing?

SPEAKER_02 (04:07):
Long story, but I actually I remember I remember
in, I believe it was ninthgrade, at the you know, the
guidance counselor says, Hey,what do you want to be when you
grow up?
Fill out this piece of paper.
And mine was I wanted to go toelectronics school and work in a
recording studio.
Interesting.
Both both parents are uhlifelong musicians.

(04:28):
Uh mom has been minister ofmusic at two different churches,
uh Methodist Church and a tempand a Jewish temple.
Uh she just retired from both,uh, one after 65 years and the
other after 42 years.
Amazing.
Dad was a high school choralteacher uh and was minister of
music at different churches uhthroughout me growing up and and

(04:50):
you know until not too recently.
Um both retired.
Mom has always done pianolessons for goodness knows how
many kids.
They both live in Knoxville, sohalf of Knoxville has learned
how to play piano from theirmom.
That's great.
But I I just grew up aroundmusic.
I grew up around high school,well, around musicals and you
know, being on stage.

(05:11):
And I was I thought I was adrummer until I recorded a real
drummer.
I'll get back to that.
Um but um I I just loved theelectronic side of it.
And that that always, you know,kept me fascinated, you know,
more than more than theory, morethan, you know, more than
arrangements.
And so I just kind of gravitatedto that.

(05:32):
My dad bought a sound system forhis choir when I was yeah, maybe
early high school.
And you know, so I I always sayI got into bands because I was
the guy that had the soundsystem, uh, not because I was a
good drummer.
Um and so uh fast forward, umwrote a letter to the AES,
beginning of my senior year, andjust said, hey, where's where

(05:55):
are, you know, how do I learn todo this?
Uh got connected with a schoolhere, uh, moved here to Atlanta
three weeks out of high school,um, three weeks, I'm sorry,
three months into that six-monthschool, which was actually not
an audio school, it was justkind of a sampling of the music
business.
Um got an internship from one ofmy instructors and started

(06:17):
working in a studio, emptyinggarbage cans and painting
offices.
And uh had incredible mentorsthere.
Uh one of them, the firstengineer I saw work there, was
Will Egliston, who is uh Gentleat USA now.
Oh wow.
The other was uh had a had along history of both Atlanta and
uh grew up kind of at thevillage in Los Angeles working

(06:39):
on some some incredible records.
So I had great mentors from thevery beginning, very
encouraging, but but you know,kept me in my lane where I
needed to be.
Um got thrown into the firereally quick there.
That was a small studio, uhtwo-room, 24-track studio in
downtown, down Simpson Street,no longer there.
Um got thrown into the firequick.

(07:01):
You know, three months in or soto the internship.
Went in one Friday and theengineer chief said, Oh, you got
a session tomorrow.
I was like, Oh, cool, what areyou working on?
He's like, No, no, it's you, andit's a you know, 30-piece choir
with a full band.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
So, you know, I'm sure I steppedon my feet and and but I figured
it out.
Um moved from there to uh aftera couple of years of emptying

(07:26):
garbage cans and doing gospelsessions, which were incredibly
formative, um got a call fromTom Wright, who had Cheshire
Sound, who I believe was thesecond largest facility in the
southeast at that point.
Um needed a chief engineer.
I've always been big at settinggoals, uh, both short term and
long term.
And one of my early, early goalsuh after I got an internship was

(07:49):
to be chief engineer of amulti-room facility by the time
I was 21.
Wow.
Um I'm not even sure I knew whatthat meant or entailed, but it
sounded awesome.
So the call from Tom Wright wasaround my 21st birthday.
Wow.
Um and the first session, likeliterally, we sat down in a
meeting one day.
He said, Okay, here's how muchyou'll make, here's what I

(08:10):
expect, blah, blah, blah.
Great, when do I start?
How about tomorrow morning?
You're gonna start mixing analbum for Peebo Bryson.
Oh my god.
It's like uh okay, never, Imean, you know, other than uh
you know the popular recordsthat everybody had heard, I
didn't know much about Pebo.
Sure.
Um that was awesome uh andincredible experience working
with him, you know, that a highstature artist.

(08:32):
I really only had a little bitof experience at crescendo um in
those first couple of years uhworking with high you know super
high profile artists that haveworked on the Gladys Knight and
the Pips record, and I washorrible.
Um uh but I'll and maybe I'llcome back to that.
Maybe I won't.
But um anyway, did the Pebotrecord.

(08:54):
Uh Peebo is still a dear friendand and client to this day.
40 years later, I hesitate tosay the number.
Don't don't don't do it.
Just saw him a couple of nightsago.
Still dear friends and and andclients.
Um that was a really pivotaltime uh in Atlanta because it
was just before the the LaFaceboom, as I call it.

(09:16):
Gotcha.
Um so but we were working on ouryou know, REM records and
Charlie Singleton cameo.
Like there was there was somereally cool records, Georgia
satellites, keep your hands toyourself.
Yeah, yeah.
All around that same time there.
Um then LaFace showed up, uhdropped into town.
I had through the work withPebo, uh, I got a referral to

(09:37):
the LaFace guys and uh and alsoCheshire.
Uh so they came there and westarted those early LaFay
sessions.
Uh Bobby Brown, Johnny Gill, mymy um gosh, uh first pebbles
record.
Um I remember Baby Face.
Um it was and I I described thatas you know, the UPS guy would

(10:00):
back the truck up and unloadplatinum records once a week.

SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
Uh it was it was an incredible time.

SPEAKER_02 (10:06):
And it was a formulative time for Atlanta
because that was that was trulythe beginning.
Um the maybe four four or fiveyears into my Cheshire time, um
decided to go independent.
Uh little face guys keptcalling, they were working all
over town.
Um that evolved into uh one ofthe writer or one of the

(10:30):
producers with LA and face wasDaryl Simmons.
And he was he was known as thesilent partner because you know
he he stayed in the backgroundbut co-wrote all those hits End
of the Road, like ridiculouscatalog.
Yeah, ridiculously talented,talented friend.
Um we were in a session atDoppler one day.
He said, Hey, I'm getting readyto build a facility.

(10:50):
You interested?
Yeah, sure, sounds like fun.
Um he said, I've picked adesigner, but that's all I got.
We're gonna figure the rest out.
So uh we spent uh some whilefinding a building.
We spent a year and a half indesign for the building, and
then in April of '96, uh weopened uh Silent Sound Studios.

(11:13):
We were right next door toDallas's studio, uh DARP, and
downtown Atlanta.
And that that opened togangbusters.
We we had incredible successthere, uh, him as the owner and
me as chief engineer.
You know, I uh it was it was awonderful experience in so many
ways, but you know, from thebeginning, it's like you know,

(11:36):
he he was he was very very vibeand fit and finish, and I was
the technical side of it.
So you know the the theframework of it is I'll pick out
the carpet and the drapes andyou got everything else.
I'm like, sure, sounds like fun.
So I got to hand pickeverything, um, you know, from
who was building the wires toyou know what they were wiring.
Um wow.

(11:56):
That's great.
Um nine years into that, Ibought the studio from Daryl,
continue to run it.
We had a 20 almost a 25-year runof you know, three or four
hundred million records all overthe world.
We were the we were the home forfor Elton for 20 something
years.
Um that I didn't know that.
How cool love class.

(12:17):
So that's that's both the originand and up to you know a few
years ago.

So yeah.
The the interesting thing to me,um you know, did you now I
you're you're obviously stillstill out there doing records.
And uh are you are you uh inyour own place now, or are you
just uh like going to whereveryou need to go, or what's your
what's your strategy in theevolving music industry?

SPEAKER_02 (12:43):
Uh I bounce around a lot.
Um when I sold the studio, mydecision to sell Silent Sound,
which was three months beforeCOVID, thank you very much.
Um that that worked out well.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (12:54):
Um I I just I I missed the time making records.
You know, I was I was definitelyspending more time on admin and
and you know, people managementand facility management.
I'm I'm I'm very hands-on if youknow something needs fix and I'm
not the guy that picks up thephone, I'm the guy that goes and
fixes it.
So gotcha.
Um, you know, it took a took asubstantial amount of time away

(13:14):
from from my passion of makingrecords.
So when I sold the the facility,I took my time building a mix
room uh out in Marietta.
Uh just me not recordinganybody, you know, so it's it's
literally just post and mix.
Um same timing.
Uh my dear friend John DriscollHopkins from Zach Brown, uh who

(13:36):
lives five minutes down theroad, opened a probably a 2,500
square foot live room uh at hishouse, and it's an incredible
sounding room.
It's like, all right, well, I'mjust gonna record everything
there.
So I do bounce around to otherother places, but that's my
primary go-to for for tracking,uh, mixing and post is in my
spot.

So it's it's interesting because you know
when you you had a a goal ofbeing chief engineer by 21, um
that is highly impressivebecause um you know, my
experience, well, first of all,as a brain tumor survivor, I was

(14:17):
too sick to really focus onanything but survival until I
was about 17.
And uh and so then you know Igot involved in music and all
this stuff.
But but uh but you know, I Imade my first record when I was
around 21 and 22, and it was apainful experience because
nobody, because I was so young,and I was playing with the only

(14:39):
musicians that could keep upwith me, you know, in the way
that was pleasing, uh, Idiscovered after after trial and
error, uh, were in theirforties.
And uh and so that was good.
I had their experience to drawon and their they had their
10,000 hours, you know, and andand and you know, that kind of
thing.
But it was also bad becausethey're like those kids, you

(15:01):
know, calling all the shots andwhat does he know?
And um, and the truth is, um allI really knew at that point was
what I wanted, whether it wasright or wrong, was something we
could debate, but but uh youknow it was it was it was just a
a real a real weird you knowposition to be in.
And and I came to the idea ofhaving my own studio uh because

(15:25):
as a blind person, I said, okay,you know, this is before I could
afford to have employees andbefore I was married, but like
as a blind person, you know,transportation is a real
difficult proposition.
There was no Uber, you know.
Uh and so um, you know, I wasthinking, what is it that would
allow me to be in the musicbusiness but bring people to me

(15:46):
um so that I don't have to go tothem?
And I thought, oh, a studiowould be ideal because that
doesn't seem like, oh, we haveto go to the blind guy.
No, you have to go to thestudio.
You know, like it's it's justpart of it's just part of the
you know what you did.
Um so I'm so fascinated of allof that to say, um, I'm so
fascinated that you had thischance at 21 to make a lot of

(16:09):
decisions and to be put in avery uh you know uh serious
position of of making decisionsand and all that kind of stuff.
Did you know um so I'm justwondering like how much how much
hand holding was there and howmuch did they just turn you
loose and let you go?
Like what was the what was thatexperience like?

(16:31):
Because that's really amazing tome.

SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
Great question.
And and there was I I like tosay there was probably a lot of
hand holding.
Um Tom Wright, who was the ownerof Cheshire, uh incredibly
smart, technical guy, fineengineer, um, all all the things
that that you would want, but asa as a business owner, you know,
as as I found later on, uh thatabsorbs so much time.

(16:57):
So, you know, as much of a quoteunquote chief engineer, uh, like
my business card said, back whenwe had business cards, uh I
still do.
Yeah.
Um it I really he was the chiefengineer because you know he was
we were taking apart gear, uh,he was taken apart and literally
redesigning.
He had his own line ofmicrophones, you know.

(17:19):
So, you know, respectfully, hehe was probably the chief
engineer.
But I but I was I was you knownumber one lead, whatever you
want to call it.
But um but yes, incredible,incredible experience seeing
what you know, maybe what achief engineer should be, being

(17:39):
able to watch, you know, the wayhe moved uh technically, uh, and
the way he tended to, you know,tended to issues.
There was a problem on a youknow, on a module on a desk,
we'd take lunch and he'd havethe as Darrell Simmons would
say, he had he'd have the hoodup.
He'd go in and start takingstuff apart and you know make it

(18:00):
right before we got back fromlunch.
So, you know, that's that's whata real chief engineer does.

So that's that's yeah, that's a really
interesting point because thatis one of the things that that
is very difficult where I am inin geography, you know,
geographically speaking, uh,there is no technical
infrastructure here of any kind.
Um so you don't have technicianshere that work on consoles, and

(18:27):
and I can't see to do it.
So um it's it's a real it's areal challenge.
I gotta bring someone down fromNorth Atlanta or Nashville or
whatever to to work on theconsoles and blah blah.
So that's that's you know, beingable to have that knowledge of
keeping things running,especially if you're a big, you
know, analog gear fan, which Iam, and I I think you are too,

(18:50):
um, you know, that's that's thatstuff's gonna need some love and
care.
It's gonna, you know, you'regonna have to you're gonna have
to clean it, you're gonna haveto rewire some of it, you're
gonna do all these things tokeep it running.
Um and that's that's a realchallenge.
But I you know, I I believe whenI teach students, because I've
taught at the university levelfor over a decade, music
technology and design to programand all this stuff.

(19:11):
And um I do believe in the ideaof throwing your students just
into the deep end and watch themswim.
But I also never set them up tofail.
So I would never ask them to dosomething I thought they could
not do.
Um, but I would ask them to dosomething they weren't
comfortable doing.

(19:32):
And did you did you find thatyou had that experience?
I mean, it sounds like you itsounds like you were pretty
stoic about the whole thing,like, oh what makes uh people
brising, uh, okay.
You know, like did it did itmake you nervous at all?
Did you did you have any doubts,or were you so young that you
that you you were you were tooyoung to have any doubts?
I mean, yeah, how did that work?

SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
Young and young and stupid is certainly certainly
lines right up there.
Um it helps you.
Naive, but but still, I I don'tknow that I necessarily thought
about you know the the guys atCrescendo or or or Cheshire or
wherever having my back.
But um yeah, I mean just kind ofsomebody I I was doing a record,

(20:15):
somebody used the word cavalierone time.
It's like God you just just dropin and you know just erase the
word and or something, you know,live analog tape, whatever.
Oh yeah.
It's like I hadn't reallythought of it's I just you know
just show up and and you know dowhat's needed.
Um it's about serving theartist.

Um well that that is very true, and there's a lot
of people that don't understandthat.

SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
Um go ahead.
No, I was gonna say those thoseguys were just you know, I'm I'm
one that that can watch asituation and go, oh, that's how
they're supposed to do that.
And you know, and uh I'm I'mvery competitive, so you know, I
I definitely want to want to doit, you know, three times as

(20:59):
good as what I just saw, youknow, the best way to do it was.
I love it.
And you know, Tom, for example,uh got to the Cheshire one day.
Tom said, Man, hop in the truck,we're gonna go over.
He got a U-Haul.
We're gonna go over and get aconsole.
Okay, great.
I don't know what for, but sure,let's do it.
Um we went over somewhere inBrookhaven, picked up uh an old

(21:21):
vintage knee desk.
My favorite took it back to theto the shop.
Um he he also had a uh his leadtech, Tom's lead tech was Greg
Lamping, who had a a longhistory of uh work with MCI,
installed desk for the BGs, likeincredible, another another
incredible example and andwonderful human.

(21:44):
Still friend.
Um but pulls a Neve desk intothe shop, start you know
disassembling it.
And this was kind of kind ofbefore kind of early days of
Neve modules and and modules ingeneral out of desk getting
racked.
Uh he had a Built for it.
Short story long, we used it fora while.

(22:04):
Michael Pinehorn ultimately gota hold of it, took it to the
West Coast, and that's the soundof Soundgarden Records, Corn
Records.
I mean, that that desk that TomWright pulled out of a garage in
Brookhaven.
Wow.
And it's actually that that rackis up for sale.
I saw it on Analog R recently.

He's actually my guest tomorrow.
Great.
Tell him I said hi.
I will.
I will.
Are you so do you do you stillcollect uh analog gear in this
day and age?

SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
It's bad, Joey.

Listen, I need an intervention with microphones.

SPEAKER_02 (22:50):
I mean I got a microphone problem.
Oh me too.
I mean, I yeah.

I'm waiting well they're they're your ear
substitutes, you know, butthey're they're they're like a
crayon box.
You want all the flavors.
You want to you want to have,you know, uh you want to have uh
choices, and and I I really dohave a problem.
I mean, there there needs to bean intervention.
There won't be.
Um because my wife actuallyempowers my my my my deficiency
here.
She uh I I I I've told thisstory before, but I mean I was

(23:17):
working one day in in in Chicagoat a studio um with a with a
band and and the the engineerthere the was saying uh uh oh
this this uh Royer 122 is evenbetter than the 121.
I was like, I highly doubt that.
I will I will be the I willdecide if that's true.
Let's put it up.
And so we put it up, and I waslike, oh, yeah, I really do like
this.

(23:37):
It's it's it's great.
It's it's you know it's a littledifferent than 121, but it's in
the same family.
And I just went on and on abouthow great it was.
And so Jen, my wife disappearedfor a little while and and then
she came back.
So I just ordered you once youstop talking about it.
Stop drilling about it.
But anyway, but I do, I mean,you know, my other goal, and I I
say this half tongue in cheek,but in deep in my heart I mean

(24:00):
this.
Like, my goal is to die with onemore microphone than Sylvia
Massey.
That's like my I've never mether, but I just but you know,
I'm gonna I'm I'm gunning forthat collection.
Um but but you know, the the thething that's so now you talked
about being a technical guy andwatching these guys disassemble
desks and stuff like that.

(24:21):
So you is that something thatyou do as well, or did you did
you start following in theirfootsteps to be able to repair
the consoles and and keep thingsrunning, or did you stay more on
the on the engineering side?

SPEAKER_02 (24:32):
Um I I will always be an engineer producer um
first.
But the yeah, you know, some ofit was out of necessity, but I I
also I would like to think I'msmart enough to know my limits.
Uh and I've important I've gotsome incredible phone numbers.

(24:52):
And it's like, hey, you know,bail me out of this.
I've gotten it to this point,and you know, I you know, but
you know, I I can I can getthere a fair amount of the time.
Uh I I still enjoy it.
You know, we we had a session umuh a mixed session at Silent,
and the the engineer sent me anote and said, Hey, the EQ on

(25:14):
you know module 56, you know,something way down on the end of
the desk.
Uh you know, I don't know aboutthe low end on that EQ, it's not
really responding.
Well, that was the beginning ofit was probably desk was getting
close to 20 years old, 18 yearsold, had been on the entire
time.
Um it's like, okay, caps arestarting to go in this thing.
So we we spent about two yearsum you know plenty of time

(25:36):
researching parts and and allthat, but we spent about two
years recapping that desk, youknow, a couple of modules at a
time.
You know, pull pull a moduleout, pull all the daughter
boards off, stick it back in,make it look like it's still
there, but it's just poweredoff, um, and do that while the
session's running.
Um wonderful tech uh engineer,great engineer uh from my old

(25:58):
studio, Randy Warnkin, uhstarted the process with me.
And I don't know that he haddone a lot of soldering work at
that point, but by a third ofthe way through, it's just
killing it.
It's like here, you do the rest.
Like he he he ultimately did themajority of that desk.
But um, but yeah, it was it'sit's kind of that.
It's like, okay, there's a need.
Um, and you know, for whateverreason, I'm gonna jump in there

(26:21):
with both feet and figure it outand do it better than it could
be done.

So yeah, I mean I I have a similar philosophy.
I mean, I I can't I cannot seeto to do the detail work, but I
am good at compensating, and um,and I am good at uh working
around problems, and the clientnever knows that that there was
a problem to begin with.
Like that, you know, I just Istay happy and positive and uh
hang on one second and take careof something.
You know, I don't I don't get Idon't get worked up.

(26:46):
I just make it work.

SPEAKER_02 (26:47):
Well, and and that that's that's like number one
best trait for an engineer islike you know, the place is
literally on fire.
And it's like, hang on, guys,let me let me fix this one
thing, I'll be right back withyou.
You know, the artist neverknows.
Yeah, you never pull them out oftheir flow.

That's well, I mean, you know, honestly, as a
producer, um, you know, I mean,we're really psychiatrists.
I mean, you know, the if we keepthe session happy and
productive, you know, and notlet anything, you know, get us
down.
I mean, that's that's probably80% of getting the record right.
You know, you know, it's andthat so you know you said in

(27:27):
earlier, and I don't I don'tknow that I believe you, but you
said that uh you weren't a verygood drummer, but your your your
musical skill as a producer,where does that, where does that
come from?
Did you go to school for fortheory or did you just pick it
up?
Or do you, you know, how I mean,you know, uh Rick Rubin says he
doesn't know anything aboutmusic theory and stuff like
that, which I find hard tobelieve, but I guess I guess

(27:49):
it's true if he said it.
So I mean, what is yourbackground from a musical
standpoint, not just the sonic,you know, the sonic landscape,
but from a musical standpoint,what is your what is your
background there?
How do you how do you fill inthose gaps?

SPEAKER_02 (28:00):
I I think Rick Rubin is probably the world's greatest
psychiatrist, by the way.
But he must be.
Back to your previous point.
Um grew up on literally grew upon stage since I was, you know,
I think I was in my firstmusical at two years old.
Oh my gosh.
In carousel.
And like I I'd go from, youknow, my mom doing obviously the

(28:21):
the the church work and thepiano lessons.
So I'd sit in I'd hear pianolessons going every day from the
time I get home from school tilldinner.
Um we'd go to um I'd go torehearsals, choir rehearsals.
So I'd I'd from literallyinfancy, I was around big choral
arrangements.
My dad was was very, veryforward thinking in in you know

(28:45):
how he challenged his choirs uhand you know, and even
extracurricular stuff like likehigh school musicals that you
know were not required for him.
He just had a passion for doingit.
So I was just around it.
You know, you you hear thosethings enough, you hear those
chords, you hear those mistakes,you hear kids, you know, that
that can't put two notestogether and and know that

(29:05):
they're clashing to you know toincredible performances, and you
know, you just kind of figure itout.
So for me, um that that's mymusical side.
You know, my my my saying I wasa drummer, and I thought I was a
drummer until I recorded a realdrummer was uh I was 18.
Uh the Georgia State jazz bandbooked a session for at

(29:28):
Crescendo.
Gary Hamm was the engineer, anduh they didn't have the drummer
at the time, is myunderstanding.
So they hired um a local drummeruh to come in and do the date,
and he started playing for youknow just for to get levels, and
it was just like, oh mygoodness, this guy.
And come to find out he was hewas my age, and it was just

(29:49):
like, oh shit, I don't y'all canhave these sticks.
It it's Sonny Emery.
Yes, Sonny was that guy, and I Igive him a hard time, he's the
one that made me stop playingdrums.
But uh, do you still play?
Do you do you have a you have aI've got my original old Ludwig
1972 Ludwig uh Pearl Kit, but umand and a collection of snare

(30:13):
drums.
That that's as an engineer, notas a drummer.
Understood.
But um no, I don't play, but butto see that level of talent and
and just ease and you knowcavalierness of just walking and
going, oh, this is just what Ido, is like I would have to
spend you know the next 20years, 24 hours a day, to even

(30:35):
think about being that good, andand would never achieve that as
a drummer.
Yeah, yeah, I gotcha.
Uh it it was but again, I alwaysknew I w I wanted to be an
engineer.
The the drumming thing was wasalways secondary to you know to
the electronics and the and thetechnical side.

So well, do you have a um do you have a sort of
a feel for what you think isimportant today in the modern
music business?
Because there's you know,there's a lot of home studio
stuff that that can be donethere.
I'm I'm all for home studio, youknow, pre-production.

(31:12):
Um I think that saves a lot oftime.
And um, you know, you can comein with a ghost track or
whatever you want to call it.
Um and and that that's helpful.
But I mean I mean, you know,there's a lot of people saying,
okay, big studios are back, alot of people saying big studios
are dead.
And you know, what what what'syour perspective on that?
But and and obviously, I mean, Iknow that you sold your big
studio uh now uh because youwant to get back to making

(31:36):
records, and that makes a lot ofsense to me because I do spend a
lot more time than I thought Iwould doing paperwork.
So it's like so I get that.
Um and my studio is not huge,but but anyway, the point is, I
mean, you know, I what what doyou think is the modern
landscape, you know, uh forpeople that are are getting into
the business now?
Um, you know, what what's whatis what's out there for them to

(31:58):
do?
It's it's different than whenwhen you started, and it's
definitely different from when Istarted.
Um you know, the the landscapeshave changed three or four times
since then.
So what what do you think whatdo you think is going on with
with the with the future of themusic business vis-a-vis you
know, production big productionsversus small productions?

SPEAKER_02 (32:17):
It's uh it's that's such a multi-layered answer.
Um there will always be a placefor a proper studio.
Um you know toward the end of myownership, the there was a lot
more of the and and we were wewere very concierge-based

(32:37):
facility, but but it I noticedmore and more bookings that that
were you know as much about anevent space as as you know as as
a studio.
Interesting.
Okay, you know, they that's justthey they needed a place, you
know, a a sonic place to to gettogether to not necessarily
create, but you know, just justgather.

(33:00):
Um and you know, and andcollaborate, you know, to to
build up to you know to the nextthing.
Or just hang out.
Um but there will always be aplace for for big studios.
Um the the cost of them, youknow, it isn't getting any

(33:21):
cheaper.
That's for sure.
But uh it's it's such a I'm I'mI'm going back and forth in my
brain here because of themulti-layer part.
I I want to jump to it, itshould it should always be
someone's go-to.
A formal studio should always besomeone's go-to for uh for

(33:42):
training, for to see how it'sdone.
Oh yeah.
YouTube only gets you so far.
And you know, there there's alot of folks that uh that think
that that's gonna be enough.
I saw Dave Pensada, herecommended a 512C on a such and
such.
Great, you know, have you heardthat?
No.

(34:03):
Exactly.
But you know, you go into a roomand you know, if you're smart,
you know you know to say aslittle as possible, uh, and and
listen as much as possible, yeahand and absorb uh uh you know
the in in a bigger facility I uhyou should be able to see uh

(34:23):
multiple different workflows,different people coming in,
different ways to approach thesame drum kit.
Um those are invaluable.
You you can't you can't teachthat and that's that's certainly
my my uh uh uh encouragement toanybody trying to get in.
It's like you know, first go gospend six months, go spend a

(34:47):
year, unpaid internship, youknow, do the crappiest work.
You know, I had a another friendthat owned a facility in town
that he'd hire an intern, and uhas soon as they you know signed
off on the on the paperwork,he'd hand them a toilet plunger.
Many people know that story andknow him.
Wonderful, wonderful human.

(35:07):
I do not disagree with that atall.
But you know, get in there andand learn the business uh of of
how a studio runs, and I thinkthis probably applies to a whole
lot more than the music businessor studios, but get in from the
beginning, see how everythingruns, see what's a pain in the
ass, see what you want to do,see what you don't want to do,
and then carve your path basedon based on what you see.

(35:30):
But you know nobody's gonna comelooking for you at home when
you've got your YouTube thingand you put your thing up on the
you know on the SoundCloud.
Nobody cares.

Yeah, I I I really I really agree with that.
I'll tell you why, becauseanyone can do it, and you don't
know how trustworthy theinformation is.
And you know, obviously if youget it from Dave Pensado or
somebody, you know, that youknow, he he he he obviously has
something to impart.

(36:02):
I don't know that you can imparta lot over, you know, a single
YouTube video or whatever, but Imean, you know, I've had
countless guitar students cometo me and say, Oh, over the
weekend I learned a sequel.
It's like, well, actually that'san F, but you know that's cute.
And it's just like you you youyou trusted the wrong source.
I mean, you know, and that'swhy, you know, as you say, like

(36:23):
being around it's the the thebest way.
I I I I would take it a stepfurther and just say, like, be
where things are happening,because that is that is really
what's gonna give you a careerversus not.
Like that's you know, beingbeing where things are happening
is really the the key.
And whatever that means.
I mean, you know, if your towndoesn't have a happening scene,

(36:45):
I've I've always had to createwhat I wanted, you know, for
myself.
I've I've you know, I nevernever had what I wanted in
place.
And I never had, at least in myearly days, I never had anyone
willing to let me come into thestudio and observe.
Or I mean I was willing to payfor the time.
He was like, hey, can I can Ibuy buy some time just to get in
here and learn?

(37:05):
And people like, yeah, no, youknow, I want to do that.
You know, so so I always justsort of built what I had.
I just sort of, okay, well, youknow, I'll just have to uh build
my own thing and do my ownthing.
And uh here in town, you know,there was uh I got frustrated
with the idea that there werelots of bands uh and there were
TV stations here in town thatwanted to have bands come on and

(37:27):
play uh on the weekends andstuff like that for to spice up
the 6 a.m.
news cycle.
Uh, but the audio was abysmalbecause these these TV stations
were not geared to handle music.
Yeah.
And so I was like, I am so tiredof being on television and
sounding just awful.
And and and uh so I went to oneof the stations and said, Look,

(37:49):
I I've got a studio, you've gotthe cameras, let's get together
and do something.
And and you know, we did.
So we made a show that I thinklasted like three years or
something, I forget exactly.
But you know, and so I bookedall the talent, I interviewed
all the the guests, I uhrecorded all the um, and it was
it was no studio trickery, itwas just live, you know, what it
is what it is kind of thing.

(38:10):
And uh we were very efficient.
We get we get four mans in andout four hours, uh uh or uh or a
little bit less.
And um, so I mean I always justsort of had to create my own
thing.
But if you can't later in life,uh I got to to hang out with
some really awesome people likeAlan Parsons and and just
different people that I couldlearn from my friend Ross
Hogarth and you know, all theseall these different cool people,

(38:33):
and I would go to master classesand stuff like that.
And you and you know, if youcome away with just one new
idea, it's totally worth it.
Um but I love I love I lovethat.
And you know, my heart is in thebig studio space.
I mean, that's just whether it'sreasonable or not to have one,
that's just what I want to do,what I want to do.
So that's what I do.

(38:53):
Uh so so you know, it's justlike I just I just kind of made
the decision like, well, thismay or may not be a good
financial decision, but it'sit's what's gonna make me happy
and keep me working until I fallover.
So, you know, that's kind of thething.
But both equally is important.
Yeah, I mean, but but now yousaid to me in one of our many
sort of conversations, um, andI'm I'm paraphrasing, but it I

(39:17):
something along the lines of uhyou always felt like you were a
better engineer when you had aconsole involved.
Um something something alongthose lines.
So do do you do you do youenjoy, I mean, do you have a a
console in your space?
Do you how much do you doeverything in the box?
How much do you rely on analog?
Like, you know, there's this isthis is the debate that starts
brawls at audio conferences, butbut uh don't make me go over

(39:41):
there.
The the well oh my favorite one,which I am just terrified of, is
what's the best microphone?
Like, oh dear god.
I was like, hey, um, yeah, sothere's gonna be a fight up
here, and I want to get out ofthe way because I can't see it
coming.
Uh, but um my answer to that iswhatever gets you to the sound
you want fast enough.
100%.
But but you know, I love themall.

(40:02):
As I said, I have a problem.
But but what are you so what areyou doing with with your gear
lust today?
How's what's what's going on inin TK's world with all the with
all the gear?
What's what's what's your what'syour go-to for making records
this these days?

SPEAKER_02 (40:15):
Definitely analog.
Um I have it uh out at HopkinsStudio uh that I mentioned
earlier, brighter shade, uhthere's a excuse me, there's a
small desk, um, but it's it's alot of outboard.
I've got a Neve Rack out there,he's got wonderful selection of
outboard.
Um so from a trackingstandpoint, that's the majority.

(40:36):
Um I definitely am I think abetter and faster uh in a
tracking date on you know whenI've got everything in front of
me.
Gotcha.
Um and I'm probably I'm probablyfaster on a mixing date as well.
Um I do I do actually like therecords that that I'm putting my

(40:58):
imprint on now more, or I likemy imprint on the records that
I'm putting on now, putting outnow, um, maybe more than I have
some of the console records thatI've done.
Um I I don't attribute that toas I primarily attribute that
just to ear, ear development.
Um and I'm and I'm in my ownworld and I don't have the

(41:19):
distractions of of either afacility or being in someone
else's facility where you knowfolks are coming and going and
this and that.
I can I can think when I need tothink.
Yeah.
Um but I'm I'm all in the box.
I got racks of analog gear here.
Uh I I rely on outboard forcompression, a lot of
compression, uh, a lot ofreverbs.

(41:41):
Uh you know a 480, uh hardware480 still sounds better than the
you know than the best umemulation of a 480, although
there are some great ones outthere.
Yeah.
Um so I I I tend to go that way.
Um lots of lots of analoginserts, but I'm I'm in the box.
Uh summing, mix bus summing,100%.

(42:03):
Uh that's that's actually a areally integral component, and
it it imparts some of that, youknow, some of that com combining
that a desk does.
Um, you know, the the sonicimprints you get from a desk,
right?
Just all those, you know,hundreds literally of paths
coming together to you knowthose two channels.
Um analog summing does that forme.

(42:26):
Uh, and I've I've got a coupleof different options on that
that I go back and forth with.
But um I I like me some tubesumming.
So that's me too.
That's absolutely that's thething.
I mean, I've I yeah, uh it's I'mI'm not a template mixer, uh, so
you know, I'm uh other thanother than just general routing,

(42:49):
uh kind of a ground-up uh youknow craftsman approach to
treating a record the way theway that record speaks to me.
Um my wife I I draw I draw adirect line to something my wife
said years ago about a designerthat could walk into a into an
empty room and see the finishedproduct, you know, the paint

(43:12):
color and the and the oh the thesofa thing's gonna be over the
all that.
It's like okay, well that'sthat's what music does to us is
you know we we hear a demo or wehear a lick or we hear a
whatever, and it's like oh, Igot 974,000 ideas about that.
Um so to be able to you know sitdown and and and work through

(43:34):
those however you get thereagain to your to your previous,
you know, however you ideallyyou can get there the fastest.
But um it's a beautiful thing tobe able to create in our own
environment.
So there's there's places forboth.
There's places to or there'stimes for both, uh being a
facility versus being your ownworld.

Well, that I I I will confess um that I do not
miss the hassle and thedestructive editing of analog
tape.
Like I I do not miss that.
I like the sound of analog tape.
I I just don't know that thatthe effort you know is worth it
at this point.

(44:14):
I mean, you know, it just itjust I I like it, but you know,
the reels are expensive, themachines need maintenance, the
there's you know destructiveediting and I hate winding tape
anyway.
It's just so annoying.

SPEAKER_02 (44:26):
So here's here's where here's where the fight
breaks out Joey.
Yeah yeah yeah hit me.
And and this came from thisactually came from Brendan
O'Brien who was a name droppingwho was oh he's a fantastic
engineer.
He was a client for for manyyears.
We were we were his B room nextto Southern Tracks which is of

(44:47):
course where he he made allthose incredible records.
But he spent a lot of time withus and and he was on a panel one
day through the academy and andthere was a wonderful
conversation with with him andSteve Lillywhite backstage and
they were they were talkingabout the decision making
process of analog versus well ofanalog tape versus a digital

(45:09):
workstation.
Right.
And you know he he described itas starting with you know this
many ideas and he put his handsout and he he said you know as
we go along we have to becauseof real estate because of you
know just technical restrictionsthat's exactly media
restrictions we have to makedecisions along the way.
And we build it down and he hekind of you know demonstrated a

(45:29):
pyramid you know down to youknow here's the two channels
that we all you know all thesedecisions come into.
But when we're working on a DOWwe start here and you know the
pyramid went opposite you knowthe ideas just keep coming and
the decisions get kicked downthe road and you know so that
part of analog that part ofanalog I do miss.

(45:50):
And of course we can approachyou know DAW work uh workstation
sessions the same way but wedon't because we have unlimited
everything.
So I I do miss that part.
And it's like well yep thattakes gone you said you could do
it better and you totally cannotbecause your voice is gone now
and we got to figure this outtomorrow.
Oh my God I know.

(46:10):
But so the the the pressure umyou know there's there's also
the component for me of and assilly as it sounds rewind time
there's there's time to there'stime between you know the end of
an idea or the end of presentingan idea to doing that again.
You're rewinding the tape you'rehaving the conversation you got

(46:32):
time for a drink of waterinstead of spacebar three
spacebar three space bar threelike and just pounding singers
and when when that isinteresting when workstations
first came out man I it was Iwas watching people just beat
the snot out of singers and theydidn't have a time to take a
drink of water like or orformulate a thought.

(46:52):
Give me another one one moretime one more time it's just
like God bless so um that thatpart of it you know and and
that's that's long lost now butum coming from an analog world
you know there was always thatbuild in that extra time I I had
a I had a producer I was soexcited as a 19 year old to be
doing this particular session hepulled me out in the hallway

(47:15):
he's like I need you to doyou're doing great you're you're
really doing great I need you todo one thing was like yeah what
what I gonna do what I got to doslow down let just chill out
because I was so anxious youknow to to make this incredible
impression and I was fast andit's like no sure let everybody
it's a vibe you got to sonurturing that vibe um is is

(47:38):
important and it's you know yougot to do it different ways when
when everything is instantaneousas it is now I think that's a
beautiful point and I had notthought of it.

And um the interesting thing um I mean you
know I complain about streamingall the time uh but I stream
music you know I I mean you knowI'm I think human beings are you
know somewhat will take the pathof least resistance and uh it's

(48:08):
just so easy to say oh yeah Ican um that that guitar takes
okay uh let's save that doanother one and then you you you
go down the road like oh my godthere's 400 tracks here it's
like how do we how do we figureout you know how do what we and
then we don't even remember whywe chose that one I was like oh
my god what did we why would wewhat did we think there why what
what do how did I make thatdecision what was I thinking

(48:30):
it's colored green but I don'tremember liking that one oh my
god and then well yeah and thenmy thing is just like you know
so many tracks and and so youknow and and um and I mean in
one way I will say control orcommand Z is a beautiful thing.
That that's uh I do like that.
I like the fact that I can makea mistake oh I did not mean to
do that and and you're youalready was able to save

(48:53):
yourself.
But you know there is you'reright.
I mean there when I started Iwas I as I say I was doing two
inch tape um at first and um youknow as you say there's real
estate you don't you don't havea uh you don't have a choice and
I had never thought about thatrewind time but that's a
wonderful point.
And it's one of those thingsthat really we should try to

(49:14):
build into our philosophy uh ofof taking taking a minute to do
it because it's it's kind oflike the other problem I have
where uh I basically eat toofast because um uh you know time
is always money and everybody'sin a hurry and you know I go
gobble gobble gobble and it'sgone.
Yeah and and really and that'snot good for you.
You know you need to you need toslow down you know you need to

(49:35):
and you need to appreciate whereyou are and I think the older
I've gotten you know the moreit's become about vibe and less
technical for me.
And that's you know at first itwas all you know polar patterns
and and uh frequency responseand uh all this and and all that
stuff's very important but umyou know you can also just sort

(49:57):
of uh uh figure figure out avibe and and move the microphone
you know walk around the roomand say oh it sounds good over
here let's stick a mic over hereright again I mean so there's
there there is a lot to that andthere's some people uh like Jack
Douglas who you know uh stilldoes a lot of tape but he he can
afford to uh I mean you know uhbut it but I I um I do I I'm I

(50:23):
guess the other thing that Iwould add to your to the
question I ask you uh to be ubernerdy about this um is what are
you if you're using you know alot of outboard gear for
character which is you know whatwe do we love tubes and we um
and all these things um how doyou how do you make that
recallable because in today'smusic business people want to

(50:45):
make really minor tweaks andthey're used to being a pull up
a DAW and just go click clickand here's your new mix.

SPEAKER_02 (50:52):
So how do you balance that you know revisions
and stuff but at the same timekeep your analog uh character
there's uh great question um I Istill have analog doc sheets um
I have a camera like everybodyelse does um but every every mix
pack you know has has finaldocumentation you know as a uh

(51:14):
as a as a digital PDF uh drawingof it um the other part some of
this uh I really got from fromDaryl Simmons uh back in the in
the early silent partner silentsound days was uh Darrell was a
hundred percent vibe and and didnot want to be technical because
it was all about the creativityright and and his catalog shows

(51:37):
that absolutely but if if heliked a particular module and
and there were three or foursounds out of that module that
he liked he bought three or fourof those modules and they just
stayed on that setting.
Ah and you know when it was timeto go to the bell thing out of
the blue box you know you flipover to that channel and then

(51:58):
you magically have the bellthing.
So there's a there's a lot ofthat for me.
I keep a uh like a pair of ofLexicon 480s you know a lot of
the stuff is in duplicate ortriplicate uh and you know can
go to some of the harder to findpieces you know TC1210s and that
kind of stuff um if if they'renot a set it and forget it um

(52:18):
it's it is minor changes um andI do have um I finished an album
uh two or three months ago and Istill have the the pieces of
tape I'm looking at the modulesnow uh the pieces of tape on
there from the differentsettings for the different songs
and I you know okay was thatwe're recalling that song today
let's go back to that um butyeah my my James Kingsland or

(52:42):
Kingsland um garbage ideas uhboxes are are are that uh you
know salt to taste I don't I'veI've got a pair of them I'd love
to have 25 of them because Iwould treat it just that same
way.
That's awesome.

That is that is really cool.
That's an interesting that'sreally interesting.
So yeah you know for me I I Ibecame uh an analog person uh
initially just because it waseasier as a blind person to to
deal with because if you areusing digital technology you
can't read that the and and it'sscreen dependent uh as to where

(53:19):
you are and what the function isand you know you got soft keys
that change function based onthe screen you're on but you
can't tell what screen you're onyou know the third knob for the
left always does the same thingon my on my knee strip or
whatever um so initially it waslike it was a thing of like
accessibility uh and and thenyou know of course uh I became a
fan of the sound and and and theand the vibe of it and and all

(53:41):
that so but but it is you knowit's one of the things that we
that we fight up about you knownot fight about but fight fight
to to find a good medium whenyou are sort of an analog you
know uh sort of uh devotee ifyou will uh it it it's it's one
of those things that peoplepeople want you know they want
that instant recallabilitybecause they're that's what

(54:02):
they're used to is that justlike oh I can just click a mouse
and I've made a change andhere's the new mix.
So there's a lot of there's alot of um there's a lot of
interesting people doinginteresting things and and and
to to kind of to kind of makethat possible.
But um I I pretty much the way II'm gonna start stealing your
idea uh because I just now forthe first time hired a sighted

(54:23):
assistant um and the reason forthat is that it took me a long
time to find someone that had mywork ethic and had my sense of
joy at all times.
And uh because uh Joey stuckhe's a drama free zone.
So uh uh you know I'm I'm happyto be alive and and that's the
joy that I bring to the sessionsand and if if you can't be

(54:46):
joyful it's not the place foryou.
So it's you know and uh and sohe has all these and and he's
also very very good with thecomputer and and really good
eyes and you know fast and anduh uh with with all the
different uh digital tools whichare harder for me that they're
possible but not but but harderso I mean it's it's nice to to
have that uh idea so I'm gonnaI'm gonna start having him take

(55:08):
pictures because a blind mantaking pictures is uh I mean
it's it's you know it's it'sit's not quality control is what
I'll say.
I w a a friend of mine uh that Iactually had on the podcast uh
it said to me that he thought itwould be interesting to do an
exhibit of of blind photographyand uh you know I mean if he I

(55:32):
told him if like look if you payfor it I'll do it.
I mean if you you know if you ifyou if you if you get someone
crazy enough to agree to thisexhibit uh I will take the
photos but anyway um I thinkthat's a brilliant idea to have
that map that you could go backto um and and to include it in
your include it in your in yourdeliverables I mean that's
that's brilliant that's a reallygood idea um and I didn't I

(55:55):
don't know why I didn't think ofthat before probably because I
don't think about cameras veryoften uh but I I think that's
really brilliant now do you doyou have a watershed moment
where you knew I mean I know youyou you took you you've taken to
to this field like a duck towater I mean you just had a a

(56:15):
natural affinity for it and Isensed that the first time we
met I just I just I picked up onit having never heard anything
you've done I just I was likedamn TK knows what he's doing um
and and uh you just have thataura so I know that you were
just said yes to everything andyou know kind of kind of got him
there and just and just figuredit out which I think is the sign

(56:36):
of anyone that really is goingto be successful they have that
ability to to do that whenthey're called to do something.
But do you have a watershedmoment at any point in your
career that you want to talkabout that really solidified for
you like yeah I I'm totallydoing the right thing.
This is this is what I'msupposed to spend my life doing

(56:57):
and and I I this is wonderful uhproof of that.
Do you do you have like awatershed record that you did or
a or just something thathappened that you're like, oh
this is this is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 (57:07):
I I made the right call I've I've definitely had
watershed moments but I I I'venever I never questioned it and
like ever and part of that was Iwasn't smart enough to have a
backup plan.
Yeah there wasn't anything tofall back on.
I mean I No I know what you meanyou know I I got out of high

(57:30):
school barely and um and youknow went to this technical
school that gave me a a piece ofpaper on the wall that you know
that nobody else would look atand go oh you did that not a
thing.
So um it was just always what Iwas supposed to do.
Now watershed moments of recordsthere's absolutely you know
moments of sitting in a in aroom with you know Elton John

(57:53):
and Phil Ramon doing a SpiceGirls record.
It's like oh yeah this is thisis fun.
I like this you know but uhAretha Franklin it's like yeah
I'm just yeah this is this is anAretha date another Aretha date.
You know it's moments like theywere not worthy.

(58:15):
But it's moments like that thatthat you know make make the the
the pain in the butt you knowthree weeks you know of of being
in the weeds with the consoleupside down and people calling
needing things and whatever youyou get to the end of those
dates and you make it throughand people are happy it's like
okay that was that was awesome.
Let's let's let's do this againtomorrow.

Yeah yeah well I I love that I mean I you know I
take great joy in almost inalmost every record not I will
not say every record there'ssome that I'm like oh dear god
how did I get talked into thisum and you know I have I've I've
got a client that shall remainnameless but um they're in a
different state uh that's one ofthe magics of the of the
internet that we can collaborateuh in different in different

(58:59):
states and they are veryspecific sort of micromanagey
clients which I wouldn't mindexcept that they don't know how
to tell me what they want whichof course makes it hard for me
to provide uh so I don't mindbeing micromanaged if somebody
has a roadmap um this is what Iwant this is what I want this is

(59:21):
what I want okay no problem cando but when you can't explain
the roadmap um and but but youalso want to micromanage uh
that's one of those days whereit's like you know blind and
drunk are bad ideas but I mightstart daydreaming well okay so
but but do you find greatsatisfaction at the end of you

(59:42):
know one of those to make themhappy or whatever when they're
like you know what that'sexactly what I had in mind even
though I told you to just makeit more you know orange you know
that's the you yeah so yeah Imean this this well this it's
actually just yesterday he saiduh using some expletives I
shan't repeat but he's like thisis awesome this is exactly what

(01:00:02):
I wanted I'm like oh thank godbecause I was running out of
ideas I didn't tell him that butI was like I was like oh my god
but but no but you know it it'strue the other thing I mean one
of the things that's you knowwhen when the client listens to
you as well um that's helpfulbecause I did a record that was
very it was very joyful I meanthe music was uh the the players

(01:00:27):
were incredible uh the the thethe music was joyful it was it's
a gospel record but it's a funkrecord it you know it's a funk
record but I mean it's it's ityou know with all these like you
know gospel lyrics and um butthe problem was I was not the
producer and yet they wanted myopinion on stuff so I was in a

(01:00:47):
weird position uh uh of of youknow not wanting to say too much
uh because that wasn't reallythe role I'd been hired to
fulfill but then also wanting tobe helpful so uh one of the
things that I had to sort ofexplain to them and I'm
wondering if you've ever hadthis experience um is you know I
wasn't part of the arrangementprocess and these gospel players

(01:01:11):
are really really good but theyweren't really listening to each
other so they played every lickthey knew all the time like
there was no on top of eachother yeah there was no there
was nothing cut out you knowthere was no okay we're gonna
feature the piano here but thenthe the bass is gonna take over
here and you know there wasthere was no arranger everybody

(01:01:33):
was just playing full out nowthe the the cool part of that
was from an energy perspectiveit was great but like from a mix
perspective it was really trickybecause it was you just can't
get all that stuff into focus.
I mean there's just you knowthere's too much happening and
so I told my client I was likelook I you know I wasn't part of

(01:01:54):
the arrangement conversationsthat wasn't you know what you
hired me to do uh you guys camein with these songs you know
theoretically fully formed andhere's the issue and I was like
so I've got to make some stufflike supportive I everything
cannot be in perfect focus whichis impossible on any mix but in
this particular case I was likeyou know I said so to me what

(01:02:16):
drives this music and makes youwant to get up and and praise is
the bass the drums and the vocaland everybody else is going to
have to be you knowornamentation you know right um
so you you know and and we madeit work and and it really it
really turned out great and youknow I you know you're you're at

(01:02:37):
a level um that I am not at likemy clients you you've made a lot
of records you know for recordlabels for artists that do it
for a living at a high level andyou know most of my clients are
some you know sort of sort ofmid-level uh uh at the beginning
of their journey um you know uhdoing it full time but um you
know not not not super superfamous or whatever you know and

(01:03:01):
and so you know the budgets wehave for stuff like this is is
pretty pretty limited typicallyum so one of the reasons one of
the things about working withAlan Parsons um was that I got
to see what a real budget lookedlike like he could take he could
take forever to make a decisionand I was like I was making
decisions like uh we should likeimmediately hey we gotta do this

(01:03:24):
he's like well we'll think aboutit and then we ended up coming
to the same conclusion um andAlan was extremely gracious to
me and kind to me and allowed meto participate you know and and
and actually made me feel like avaluable person to help and uh
he actually sent me a message umthat said it's on video so I can
prove it uh that that uh he saidI I had the best ears in the

(01:03:48):
music business which is not truebut I'm not gonna argue with
Alan Parsons about that and whywould you and why would you do
that and that's like that's likemy Grammy moment right that
that's my Grammy.
Alan Parsons says I'm cool.
You know and so but my point islike you know how do you you
know how do you how do youhandle that um those kind of
situations where you you haveyou I guess I I guess to say at

(01:04:12):
your level have you foundyourself having to save the
client from themselves?
Like have you you know have youhad to help make some decisions
that that uh you know that thatreally that that or do you find
that at the level you're playingat that the people are are are
super educated and you don'thave to do any hand holding I
mean what's the you know I I'vealways find that such an

(01:04:32):
interesting question.
Like you know the more the moretime that you are able to be an
artist, you know, does that doesthat help or is it really
helpful to have someone uh onthe other side of the glass that
helps you get out of your ownhead.
I mean that's you know I I Ifind again that the most of my
job is being a psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:52):
Well I I think that kind of depends on on on the
level of confidence and thelevel of ego um yeah you know on
on the other side of the glass.
You know it's for for me and Imaybe I'm maybe I'm telling
telling secrets I shouldn't butyou know for me if the the best

(01:05:13):
way my ideas um or orelaborations on other ideas can
come out is if it's the actuallythe artist idea or if you can
convince them that it was theiridea.
Yeah yeah hey you remember withit was like 30 minutes ago you
sang that thing that where youwent up at the end but then you
trailed off try that one moretime and they're like I don't
remember just just try that.

(01:05:34):
And of course you know it'sgreat because it was their idea.

Joey Stuckey (01:05:37):
Yeah it was you know not so much.
So well you're able you're ableto you know you're able to guide
them.
I I I I take your point thatyou're able to sort of guide and
and um and and that kind ofthing.
And and it's it's really youknow it's such an interesting
business um because you do findpeople that have um that that
have a uh uh I guess I won't sayoverinflated but have a have a

(01:05:59):
level of of confidence that canget in the way of of being
productive.
You know, that's like, you know,when it when when kind of
basically like cats.
I mean, you know, my cat thinksthat any idea that he has is a
good one.
And if it's my idea, he's not askeen.
Um so if if he jumps in my lap,that's appropriate.

(01:06:20):
If I pick him up, eh not somuch.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:22):
So but but that that ego and confidence is is such a
is such an important part aboutmost of the rest of of that
craft.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:34):
You know, knowing you know knowing how to how to
utilize that.

Well it's like Mc Jagger.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:39):
I mean Mc Jagger from a melodic standpoint ain't
the greatest singer in the worldbut man the swagger you know
just the confidence that he thathe pushes and and there was a in
in back in the Cheshire days uhI was doing night sessions with
goodness knows who and uh MickJagger actually came through

(01:06:59):
that day for a voiceover orsomething you know something
quick and everybody that wasthere would not shut up out
about what a nice kind genuineman he was.
Yeah it's like oh and that thatwas one of my first you know
somebody at that level just thatis so cool being oh you know
being received that way um youknow so again knowing you know

(01:07:22):
knowing when to apply that andand when to when to step back
you know that is exactly I havesaid that exact thing uh because
when I perform uh it's my stageand and I'm the most important
thing on it and then as soon asthe show's over you let all that
go.

You get rid of it.
You just don't you don't need itanymore.
But it is interesting.
I want to I want to conclude I II want to do two things before
we wrap up I want to first giveyou a chance to say anything
that you want to say that wehaven't touched on but I also
want to ask you my other petquestion besides origin stories.
And this one does cause a lot ofbrawls.
I have gotten a lot of hate forthis question not from the

(01:08:04):
podcast guests but from peopleonline.
I want to know your thoughts onAI because I have some very
definite thoughts uh but uh andI'm I'm quite uh vocal about
those but you what do you whatdo you think about AI?
I mean it's it's it's our newdisruptor you know it's it's the
it's the player piano it's thegramophone it's all these things

(01:08:27):
it's but it's uh it's I do thinkit's a little different uh than
some of the previous disruptorsin our business.
How do you feel about it?
What do you think about AI?

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:35):
That's really interesting that you said it's
the new player piano I neverthought about it that way but
it's I mean we've we've saidthat the different inventions
was going to ruin the musicbusiness since time immemorial
you know but uh we found ways ofliving with it will it ruin it
it it's it's gonna it's gonnadrastically change the the
business side of it from youknow from a label from the from

(01:08:57):
the way a label is able to makemoney um it's not just AI but
just natural evolution hasalready changed drastically the
internet has changed drasticallyum you know a label's approach
to um to who they have signedand the way they sign and who
they pick to sign and thedevelopment or sometimes lack

(01:09:20):
thereof you know compared towhat what you and I grew up
with.
But back to AI I I think it'sanother tool.
It's certainly a tool that weyou know nobody has any idea um
what that's going to look like ayear from now maybe a week from
now but um but as a as acreative tool it's incredible um

(01:09:42):
used properly it's incredible inmy eyes and I I typically use
the example I was doing a recordum Ruby Vale on the Sulphonics
uh album will be out uh Ibelieve shortly but uh there was
a there was a song toward theend and it's like guys we'd I'd
love to have a choir on this itwas it was you know I believe I

(01:10:03):
believe I was the one that saidthat however however the idea
came into the room and we werewe were late enough into the
project and it's like you knowwe all we all know what getting
a choir into a into a big roomcost and it's like you know what
let me let me give something ashot before we before we go down
that rabbit hole so um I Iactually came back to my spot uh

(01:10:25):
sang three maybe three fourdifferent parts I'm not a singer
but um sang three or fourdifferent parts melodimed myself
to be good enough and then stuckit into an AI engine um you know
stuck each part into you know thI picked three or four different
voices whatever it was uhbrought that back in and you

(01:10:45):
know it's it's not a featuredyou know we are the world choir
in song but it but it's it'sdefinitely a textural element
that you you know is isintentionally acquire and it
more than served the need.

So I don't know that you know again for where we
were in in the project um Idon't know that we we would have
you know gone down the choirrabbit hole but but the creative
idea was able to be used uh beable to be brought out you know
for a for a month longsubscription to two different
you know whatever whatever itwas I picked um yeah so from

(01:11:21):
that standpoint god we we allneed to have those tools and and
be you know proficient withthose tools uh just like we are
with any other tools um yeah howit gets integrated into plugins
you know the the actualinception of hey well uh uh uh
of of songwriting and I'll I'llwe'll use a different example um

(01:11:43):
I've got a Grammy U mentee whohad an idea for a song one of
the in our original meetings hesaid you know he he's not a he's
not an engineer but isfascinated and wanted to learn
more about it said you knowlet's get together and we'll
we'll actually you know start tocreate this song idea that you
have he came back in a latermeeting and said guess what and

(01:12:04):
he had he put his idea he hegave enough of a description of
how he wanted this song to feelhere's the lyrics this type of
singer whatever and was able toactually get a demo of his idea
out he would you had zerointention of releasing it making
money off of it or whatever butas a creative tool he was smart

(01:12:24):
enough to to spend the time anddig in and learn how to make
this thing um spit out the ideathat was swirling around in his
head yeah I I I you know duringyou're I I think you're usually
in LA for Grammy week um like Iam and I go to NAM as well and
and uh end up staying out therefor you know three weeks or

(01:12:45):
whatever and um there were a lotof you know I I attended a lot
of AI symposiums uh I think wellyou were at one with Will I am I
think you were there for thatone actually um and and so I
mean he had a lot of interestingthings to say smart man oh big
time and uh and the other thingwas you know I a lot of people
are using it as as a sketchpadand uh you know a lot of people

(01:13:06):
are using it for organizationaluh you know helping basically
sort of like a virtual assistantum but I I do I feel um you know
when it comes to some of thetools uh and I'm a big fan I'm
not gonna name any specific uhsoftware companies but there are
some software companies thathave AI tools and the tool says

(01:13:30):
something like uh might Isuggest uh where you start your
levels and my answer is no Idon't I don't need that thanks
but no I I'm I'm I'm I put in my10,000 hours I'm I'm a
professional and I'm gonna mixthe record the way I want to mix
it I don't need your input itreminds me of the Microsoft I
don't know if you remember thisbut it reminds me of Microsoft
Clippy uh everybody hated Clippyand you know Clippy was always

(01:13:54):
in the corner trying to say heycan I help you with your
punctuation no I don't I do notneed your assistance to put my
commas where they go um so so Imean you know I do sort of feel
uh annoyed uh that that a lot ofpeople are saying what the head
of Sunos said basically wasmusic's too hard and it's too

(01:14:17):
hard to learn an instrument andI don't want to do that but I
want to make music and uh soeverybody should be able to do
that.
And and I was just like you knowI think the struggle of bringing
an idea to fruition is whatgives it a lot of its magic and
a lot of its spirit and a lot ofits you know heart.

(01:14:38):
And uh and so I'm not sure youknow what value that sort of
solely AI generated idea from aa non-music professional has.
But the other thing that a lotof people aren't talking about
is that the actual law is notkeeping up with the technology
as usual.

(01:14:59):
We're always behind.
But in this instance uh we can'treally afford to be behind
anymore because it's changing sofast and being implemented in so
many places that you know um thethere there needs to be some
sense of what can be used andwhat can't be used, you know, uh
vis-a-vis copyright and thatkind of thing.

(01:15:19):
So we we we talk about that alot on this podcast because I
think it's important.
But um you know I I I don't Idon't object to AI completely I
mean I think it has wonderfulapplications.
Like I mean I would be thrilledif AI could and and this is
happening by the way I've beenI've been preaching this for
about six, seven years and it'sfinally happening.
AI is becoming a significanttool for um people that have a

(01:15:45):
disability it it it especiallyin the blind uh market there's a
lot of things going on with likemeta sunglasses and all these
things where AI is starting tobe able to describe the room
around you and help you get tothe door and all these things um
that that are wonderful.
And so for AI to be able to bemy eyes and to be you know uh

(01:16:05):
help me integrate with thevisual world is a beautiful
thing.
And it's something I've been youknow wanting to see happen for a
long time and I I reallyappreciate that.
And you know by the same token Ican get behind it being a tool.
I don't really like the idea ofyou know non-sentient beings
making art as much as you knowyou know I'm not real thrilled

(01:16:28):
about that idea.
It just doesn't appeal to me.
But but you know as I say I Ithink the big thing is I think
we have to talk about it umbecause it's it's here it's not
going anywhere and we've got tofigure out how how to integrate
it in our world in a way that isyou know ultimately beneficial
to to to man.

(01:16:49):
So that's that's kind of youknow it's it's not something you
can wish away and I'm not I'mI'm not a Luddite I don't I
don't hate technology you knowyou know I I'm not I'm not
opposed to it.
But I I do like I say I doprefer to mix my own records
without uh the computer gettinginvolved with telling me where
to start my levels.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:08):
Well and and to that you know there was uh a a a
friend mixer uh probably fivesix years ago um you know said
kind of kind of saw this not sawthis coming but but saw you know
saw the future of AI uh you knowin in our business and it's like
you know I I'm definitelylooking at at other options here

(01:17:29):
uh you know inside the the thecreative part of this business
because you know it won't belong before we can just throw
all the all the stems or all thetracks in you know into a thing
and it mixes it you know tendifferent ways and you know it's
like I don't think that's ever Imean in in in the upper
certainly in the upper tier uhof the industry I can't imagine

(01:17:52):
that that it gets that far pastyou know needing a human because
you know they somebody sends youthe same files they send me
they're gonna get differentrecords as you know any of our
that's exactly right and andthat's the beautiful part about
this is you know it's it's soit's so you know how do I how do

(01:18:16):
I see this this wonderfulcreative idea being presented um
you know and not hey okay that'sgreat make it you know make it
feel more like an Eric Claptonrecord send you know that's
that's not that's not a vibe andyeah yeah I think you know what
my my son I my son's I I I Ilisten to his perspective on you

(01:18:38):
know on on the world uh becauseit's a very different very
different view and and he's he'sover accentuated in recent years
how much his generation he'slate 20s um how much his
generation uh gravitates towardauthenticity and and that it's

(01:18:59):
it's a common thing and you knoweven even when that word doesn't
come up that's where he'sleaning and whether it's an
experience or or the you know anidea or and that that's really
stuck with me on that that thatgeneration that's growing up
with this stuff you know rightin front of them.

(01:19:20):
Yeah um you know is is able toseek out authenticity uh
especially in music but but artand life and you know having
their you know as as you and Iwould know their their BS filter
and it's you know their AIfilter on yeah and really really
gravitating to that so that thatrestored faith in the future.

Yeah no I mean there there's there is I'll tell
you the the the generationyou're talking about um there's
there's a lot of there's a lotof wonderful things uh about
them and um you know I there'sthere's some things like um
things that that were taboo uhfor us like talking about mental

(01:20:05):
health and you know it's nottaboo anymore it's you know it's
the people are able to talkabout it and and I think what
I've been seeing in a limitedway um you know and and I think
it's gonna just get bigger ispeople kind of going back
towards the boutique experienceor the authentic experience you
know vinyl records are are ourhip again uh my God you know you

(01:20:28):
spend 40 bucks on one now I meanyou know Joey Joey can't you
know charge that for his vinylrecords but but you know if
you're if you're I mean my I Ican sell mine for 20 and I'll
I'll I'll get some bites.
But you know there if you go toBarnes and Noble or you go to
you know uh you're gonna pay 40bucks for a vinyl record you
know and uh uh my buddy RossHogarth just gave me one that
he's uh one of his clients putout and um and I was like well I

(01:20:51):
appreciate you give me thisbecause uh it would have cost me
40 bucks if I wanted to buy itand I you know so I was like
right but but it it's it's I Ithink that there's I think there
there's a there's a yearning forfor something you know for
something that has has a has acontent that has actual you know
meaning and struggle andheartbeat yeah yeah sonic

(01:21:14):
characteristics that are I meanbecause you know technically
speaking um I think CDs you knowhave the you know have they have
a better frequency frequencyresponse than vinyl but um
vinyl's more fun to listen to Imean it's just you know it's
just it's just more fun so Imean it's interesting that that
things in our business uh thatand I guess this is kind of to

(01:21:35):
my point about AI there arethings in our business that are
actually not perfect and thereinlies the charm I mean you talk
about the B3 Orion I mean thatyou hear that thing grit and
grind you know you know I'msaying and that's that's but
that's that's it that's thesound.
Yeah and and it's it's the samething with vinyl I mean you know
technically speaking uh it'sit's got a more limited

(01:21:57):
frequency response than aBlu-ray uh but but it just is a
much more interesting listen.
So you know the the the it's alot of things in our field that
like are technically imperfectthat actually you know kind of
lend to the charm of of therecord or that you're trying to
produce but I I you know AI ishere and uh I I think the big
thing and Will I am said thisI'm I'm not saying it as well as

(01:22:19):
he said it but he said you knowessentially you need to own the
AI you need to own the contentyou need to own your likeness.
And when you do that, you knowyou can create some things using
AI that are that are moreequitable as an artist and and
and that kind of thing.
And you know how we move fromthe subscription or the utility

(01:22:41):
model uh that all the streamingservices use or that the AIs
use, I don't know because thethe the big companies know that
they this is how they make a lotof money.
So I don't know I don't know howyou're gonna move them away from
that from that model.
But anyway um I think that'sgreat.
I think your perspective isreally spot on and and uh I I do
I think you're right.
I think at the at the lowerlevels of the of the industry

(01:23:01):
where you've got entry people inthe entry phase um you know uh
can't afford to really uh youknow go to a big studio maybe uh
um you know some guys some guysare saying now I I don't really
agree with this one I mean sothere was a guy that at NAM that
said that he's not a good singerand so he used AI generated
voices um you know to be abetter singer and um and so that

(01:23:24):
he could impart to his clientmore kind of like his idea for
the songwriting aspect ofthings.
But you know I went to Berkeleyuh the second time I went to
school and um and we heardbecause you we heard some some
demos of of famous recordingsand uh you know some of these
demos were not that sexy.

(01:23:46):
I mean they you know they werepretty raw and I've sort of
evolved over the years the ideathat for a publishing demo not a
not an artist demo but apublishing demo like you know
less is more and you know thethe more that you can let the
singer or the artist that you'repitching to envision how they

(01:24:07):
would do it the better off youare.
So I don't know that like moreperfect vocals are necessarily
helpful.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:14):
I'm not sure about that but anyway it is an
interesting we said that whenautotune came out and we heard
we heard a Nora Jones recordwhere she bends into something
it's like ah anybody else wouldhave fixed that that's awesome
the way she did it though.
Oh I love it.
All the way back to demos youknow demos you used to have to
go in and and you know get yourget your buddies or whoever or

(01:24:35):
hire studio musicians to get anidea out and then Mitty came
along.
That's true.
Oh well now we're down to oneguy one girl that's okay it's it
but your your word disruptor isis it's there it's true it's
there.

Yep.
Well let let me let me closewith this my friend and thank
you so much for your time it'sbeen a joy really I just wanted
an excuse to chat with you.
But same but same but it's beena joy to to have you on the show
and and to to share yourperspective is there anything
you want to impart to uh anyonethat's uh crazy enough to be in
this business that we haven'ttalked about stay the course uh

(01:25:10):
if if you're supposed to bedoing it you will be um yeah
don't don't let life'sdistractions you know pull you
away from from what you'reultimately supposed to be you
know I I I could have driftedyou know two or three different
times but um again I didn't havea backup plan because I didn't

(01:25:32):
ever feel like I needed one.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:34):
I just this is just what I'm supposed to do.
And you know you you work forfree for so long and you know
maybe something comes out of itbut the next thing you just stay
the course uh it it will if ifyou're supposed to be doing it
it will pay off and if you'renot you should take every
experience that you gain alongthat path and utilize it toward

(01:25:56):
your next adventure because ifyou're not learning something
you're not paying attention.

Beautifully said I I am so um so grateful for that
perspective and and you knowit's it's funny because my I'm
I'm the same way in the sensethat I never had a a backup plan
uh for a career path which isunusual for me because um as
someone that's a you know blindbrain tumor survivor with a

(01:26:25):
myriad of challenges uh that Istill face um I like backup
plans I like to have backupplans to my backup plans because
I've never been able to dothings the same way as anybody
else and so I feel uncomfortabletypically speaking if I don't
have at least three or fouroptions that I can that I can

(01:26:45):
pivot to.
But when it came to you know thecreation of music through sound
through through musicianshipthrough all that stuff I never
really thought about it.
I was like well you know this isthis is what I'm this is what
I'm doing.
I was like this is this is ityou know as long as I can afford
to get a cheeseburger at the endof the day we're doing all right
there you go.
TK my friend what a what a joywhat a what a privilege and uh

(01:27:07):
thank you so much for your timeand um you know man I'm gonna
I'm gonna come one day and uhsit in the room and and absorb
absorb your work one day I'mjust gonna sit there and and um
I won't stay mostly quiet umI'll do I'll trade you I'll do
the same well that sounds thatsounds fair and I'll make it you
you gotta wear you gotta weardark sunglasses to be at be in

(01:27:28):
my studio you're gonna have tosold no weird the same
limitations I've got I love youmy friend I appreciate you I
love you too buddy thank you somuch for having me I genuinely
appreciate you take care muchlove

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 8: Thom “TK” Kidd on Analog Decisions, Producer Psychology, AI Tools, and Staying the Course

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Episode 8: Thom “TK” Kidd on Analog Decisions, Producer Psychology, AI Tools, and Staying the Course

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