Episode 9: Ellen Francese on Creative Permission, Perfectionism, AI, and Art as Survival

Episode Transcript
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Joey Stuckey (00:00):
Welcome once again to the Stuck on Sound Podcast.
I'm your host, Joey Stuckey.
And man, you know, I I am sofortunate to know so many
interesting people.
That is the great thing aboutbeing an artist and traveling
and speaking and doing all thesedifferent things.
It's the people you meet.
That's that's that's the actualreal blessing of the whole thing

(00:20):
because very few of us in themusic industry are rich.
So we are rich in in otherthings besides cash.
But I have a dear friend, anabsolutely brilliant person with
us today to talk about many,many things.
And it is Professor EllenFranchese, and I am so grateful
to have her here.
Welcome, my friends.
Good to good to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 (00:41):
It's lovely to be here, Joey.
Thank you.

Well, you you were uh my professor uh uh at an
online class I took at Berkeley,and we became instant friends,
and um and I just thought thatso many people um need to hear
your voice uh in in in our worldat the moment because there's so

(01:05):
many disruptive sort of elementsin uh in in in art.
You know, I I of course, youknow, music is what I do, but of
course, there's you know visualart, there's and there's there's
uh there's there's you knownovels and there's all kinds of
things going on.
And um, and you're just such abrilliant person at like you
know, framing and understandingthings and thinking about you

(01:28):
know art in profound ways.
And and I think you would agreewith me that uh I take being an
artist very seriously.
I I think it's uh a privilegebut also a responsibility to to
talk about things that areimportant as an artist and uh to
to introduce new ideas into thesocial consciousness, to

(01:48):
preserve history, to do allthese things.
And so um I just was so excitedto to have you come on and talk
about several things.
But before we jump into thatrabbit hole, I want to I want to
talk to you about how you foundum because your the class you
taught was was a class aboutartistry and finding your voice
as an artist, which is soimportant.

(02:10):
And um I just wanted to talk toyou about the journey that led
you to to to to be an artist andthen to teach and to help others
you know be the best versions ofthemselves they can be.
So I wanted to kind of startwith that question that but it's
got an origin story, you know,what how did you get where you
are?

SPEAKER_01 (02:29):
Well, there's no one timeline here.
Yeah, I would say, but the uh mymother was the one I think
responsible for many of thethings that you mention.
She was a visual artist.
Um, she wanted to be a visualartist in terms of career, but
at the time she grew up, shewasn't allowed to do that.

(02:50):
So she studied art at what usedto be Mass College of Art.
They have a new name, I don'tknow now.
But um she and wanted to be afashion designer, actually, but
she ended up doing musiceducation, right?
And particularly working withautistic kids, you know, through
visual art.
So she was grateful for what shedid.

(03:11):
However, you know, she, as Isaid, she wanted to be a creator
only, you know, and be able toexplore what that meant.
She was a painter primarily anda weaver as well.
So um she also taught artclasses in our house.
So I got a lot of benefit fromthat.
I saw not only how she was withstudents, and she was the same

(03:34):
with me.
There was no right or wrong.
Uh, curiosity led everything,and this was a good thing.
She would give feedback if interms of skill, if I wanted to
understand options in terms ofshaping something or whatever.
But as I said, there was noright or wrong.
I could be as messy as I want.
And that lack of boundaries andthe honoring of the individual

(03:57):
curiosity is a really profoundthing that gets often subverted
in a society where uhcompetition rules related to
status, external validation, youknow, all these things that
derail us, perfectionismultimately, and all this derails
us and really uh builds a wallbetween honoring ourselves as

(04:19):
who we are, whatever that maymean, what we value, what we
see, what we feel that we cangive ourselves permission, what
a terrible word to even have touse, to uh create something.
And so I knew new bound noboundaries whatsoever, you know,
in that way.
And so I felt very comfortable,whatever I was doing, whether it
was visual art or dance ortheater or writing or you know,

(04:41):
anything.
I I was really free with that.
So I never worried about whatpeople had to say, other than to
learn humbly and gratefully fromother people.
And just learning about art too,you know, how to see and what
seeing means, to be really quietand spending time with
something.
And the same thing with thatway, we could apply that to
listening or anything else,right?

(05:02):
And so that was a real gift,too.
So I lived an artist life in somany disciplines, you know,
growing up.
And I and I saw what it was tobe a teacher was doing the very
thing that my mother did, youknow, to help people feel that
they could honor who theyunderstood to be themselves.
I never sought to have my ownvoice because I felt I always

(05:24):
had it.
I never even considered what myown voice was.
I just created, you know, butthat doesn't say that I'm not
like when I write a poem, I canevaluate it, stand back.
And I love wrestling withlanguage and that kind of thing.
And that's not a dishonoring, itis a working through and finding
out more about my intentionalityin relation to what I'm writing.

(05:47):
So I think it's a really goodbalance between being able to be
free to say whatever I want tosay and whatever way I want it,
as well as having the capacityto stand back and check in with
myself and my intention and tocobble editing together and all
of this.
And so it's a beautiful journey.
And this is the kind of thingthat I've always hoped that I

(06:10):
could offer my students, youknow, that kind of thinking,
that that curiosity is somethingthat we have to honor, that
we're all artists and artiststhat transcends all borders.
Do you know, as a scientist, asan anthropologist, as a do you
know, there's no objective,subjective.
Everything is subjective as muchas we wish to say that something

(06:30):
is objective.
It isn't, you know, history isnot objective.
It's if we could talk to amillion people, we still would
not get the full story, whateverthat means, of a particular
event.
And so I think that needs to beseen too, that we are all
artists, we are in the sameplane of existence.
And to really use our art notonly for ourselves, if it offers

(06:51):
us something, and so manyartists will say that it does,
it certainly I would say helpedme through difficult times,
though not consciously.
I just it just did, you know.
And uh, but also if I felt likeI wanted to share it, I could
share it freely, do you know,and not worry about what people
would think.
And if they liked it, fine.
If they didn't like it, that'sokay too.

(07:13):
It's kind of like you release anew life into the world and it
goes about whatever it goesabout, you know, and and that
and that's a fine thing, do youknow?
I know people talk about legacyand you know, all this, and I
understand it, I truly do, but Ithink that we can have a richer
relationship with ourselves asartists if we don't buy into

(07:35):
what people think in a way ofjudgment.
And will this be a timelesspiece?
And do I have an original voice?
We say what we want to say andwe we release it, you know, and
I think that's it.
I didn't, yeah.
I listened to a Paul Simon, thisis relates, a Paul Simon
interview, and he had, I don'tknow, when he put out his seven

(07:57):
psalms, but he talked about thatvery thing when asked about
legacy.
I mean, we still I still adoresongs from whatever it was, the
60s, uh beautiful songs.
Oh my gosh.
Anyway, uh, and and it's justlike that.
Like he doesn't worry about ifpeople will like it and 10 years
will they like something,whatever.

(08:18):
He just says that you know, itevery every piece of art has its
life, and if people embrace it,they do.
And if they don't, thensomething else will come along
that they're that they embrace,and that is it.
So he has this kind of differentview than a lot of artists, but
allows him to be free when hecreates art.
And I think that again is keyfor all artists.

So absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, and and andinterestingly, uh, as a young
artist, because I I always feltspiritually compelled to to
create music.
And when I you know, my first myearly life um was uh survival
because I'm a brain tumorsurvivor and you know I'm blind
and I have all these uh funhealth challenges that that I

(09:02):
you know learned to deal with.
And I manage them and I do whatI want to do by and large.
Uh so but but it wasn't until Iwas late teens that I was
healthy enough to really thinkof anything else besides you
know basic survival.
But when I did, um I remember myfirst record came out and I was
21 or whatever, and uh it was avery, I think the first real, or

(09:25):
at least for me anyway, thefirst real big creation uh where
other people are involved bynecessity.
You know, you got your drummer,you got your whatever, uh,
besides just me.
Um the first one was toughbecause nobody trusted my nobody
trusted my voice or my vision atat first.
And uh, and so you know, I hadto sort of advocate for myself.

(09:46):
It's like, look, I you know, youdon't have to like it, you just
have to play it.
You don't have to, but I had agirlfriend at the time, and one
of her friends came up to me.
And why she felt compelled to dothis, I'll never know.
But she's like, her friend cameup and said, I don't like your
music.
I said, Okay.
And she's like, That doesn'tthat doesn't bother you?
I was like, I don't care whatyou think.
I mean, it's yeah, you know,it's like you don't have to like

(10:06):
it, it's fine.
I mean, it's you know, you don'tyou don't have to find it of
value.
Uh it's I find it of value, andand you know, I I believe in in
putting in the you know, puttingin the work and working hard to
make it, as you beautifullysaid, like the most authentic,
you know, representation of whatI intend.
You know, that's that's the workthat we're putting into it.

(10:28):
You know, that's the 10,000hours.
But it's I've I've also, youknow, you said something to me
in class, and I don't know ifyou'll remember this, but it was
a profound moment for me becauseum I had been trained in um
marketing.
And um, and so you know, we talkabout targeting our audience and
using you know demographicinformation and psychographic

(10:50):
information.
And you, you know, the the thegoal was has never been for me
to like have a hit record perse, but I do want to be able to
eat.
You know, I do want to be ableto make a living off the art.
But you told me so I was worriedabout stuff like that, and I was
always like very uh I'm aworrier, I admit it.
And so uh, but you told me like,don't worry so much, just just

(11:11):
do what you do, and people willlove it and they'll be fine.
And I'm paraphrasing, but butthat was so powerful for me to
lean in because I've been toldmy whole life that my
eclecticism was a problem from amarketing standpoint, and um,
and uh, and then you gave me thecourage uh to just lean into it
and just just do it and youknow, whatever happened
happened.

(11:32):
So I I appreciate that.
And that was a really profoundmoment for me.
And I I think that you've you'vereally encapsulated uh you know
how people you know can you knowhave the journey that they that
they have um and and just bejust enjoy it because it's such
a beautiful thing to to do whatwe do and to get a chance to do
what we do, you know, for aliving.

(11:53):
And and and you in particular, Imean, I feel like being a good
teacher is a real calling.
Um there are people that arevery talented artists, you know,
or or any discipline that teach,but not all of them are good
teachers.
I mean, you know, they they mayhave the science down or
whatever, but there's there'smore.
Um and and you you you you arereally called, I feel, to be a

(12:16):
teacher.
And I and I now know that um,you know, a lot of that came
from the inspiration of yourmom, which I think is really
cool.
But when you were first going toschool, what was what was your
intention then when you were,you know, in in your in your
late teens, early 20s?
Like what was your what path didyou think you were headed down?

SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Well, such a hard I didn't do a lot of thinking as
much as I did a lot of thinking,you know, if you know what I
mean.
Like do you know?
I was always engaged in likedeep things and reading deep
things and that and really beingintellectually curious, but I
didn't really think deeply aboutmy life.
Uh I just, but I was deeplyengaged in art all the time and

(12:55):
like not 24 hours a day, butpretty much like all the time.
I always had something with me.
We didn't have the technology,actually, thank goodness.
As we had have now, you know, soI have like my sketch pad and I
have my notebook to write poemsand other ideas.
I have my beautiful pen, which Ireally love and I still wish I
had it, and made a little pouchfor it.

(13:16):
And you know, like I'm I wouldcarry my recorder with me.
Like I would like be packed upall the time, you know, and just
like ready to to whatever that Idon't know, I needed to move, I
needed to think, I needed towrite, I needed to sketch, I
need to like all of this.
And so that really was my life.
Like art, the arts like drove mecompletely.
Uh so when it came to trying tofigure out, I guess you're

(13:38):
asking about, well, okay, nowwhat do we want to do with the
so-called the rest of our life,which I think is in some ways a
very difficult and in some waysunfair question because then I
have to like commit to somethingwhen I don't so many things, you
know.
Again, I grew up with the artsand I grew up teaching because
my I was able to teach alongsidemy mother, you know, to help her
out in group lessons.

(13:59):
So, you know, all that.
So I think inherently, uhinstinctively, I was a teacher,
uh, but more than that, I wantedto help people because again,
primarily her students, even inour house, were kids who needed
extra care.
And she did the visual art.
And so, you know, I saw I hadthat heart, that sense of
service too.
So that was a very deep part of,you know, me, as well as the

(14:23):
need and drive to do the arts.
So uh after great deliberation,I don't think it's an
interesting story, but anyway,so it was either visual art
school, like Rhode Island Schoolof Design or something like
this, go there, because I alsolove silversmithing.
I love construction.

I don't interesting things.

SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
And that was probably my strength in terms of
visual art.
So I thought, okay, we go therebecause they have a program
there too, or I will go to aliberal arts school and focus on
theater and dance.
And so I didn't really know whatto do.
I said, okay, I can bring mysilversmithing equipment with
me, which I shouldn't have.
I'm soldering in my dorm room.
I'm a fire happening.
That's great.

(15:01):
At any rate, so I brought all myequipment.
See, I can do this, I cancontinue my visual art, and uh
you can do the theater and umthe dance.
And so, yeah, but you know,circumstances are circumstances,
and I became ill and I couldn'tdo theater, I couldn't do the
night shift, and I couldn'tdance six hours a day.
So um that was that.

(15:23):
But I did do dance maybe oneclass a day.
I was able to audit because avery nice teacher who was
dancing with Maris Cunninghamfrom New York City let me just
audit when I was feeling wellenough, and it was really great.
But I moved from the performingarts to um ultimately majoring
in writing.
Gotcha.
And write prose and really Imajored in prose there, though

(15:45):
poetry was always my go-to um,you know, way of writing.
And so that's what I did.
And I took a quick sidestep tosocial work, hence the service
part.
But I I never really knew how toput them together.
And I and maybe it just I don'tknow, I didn't ask enough
questions, or people didn'treally understand who I am in

(16:07):
terms of any advisor I had atthe school.
I have no idea.
But whatever it was, I reallynever found a path of art and um
service that really um was agood fit for me.
You know, I did I did a littlevisual art working with autistic
kids like my mother did, andthat it helped, it was a good
heart thing, but I didn't seethat as I want to do that every

(16:30):
day.
Didn't so I returned to thevisual art and just ended up,
you know, teaching on a collegelevel ultimately.
And that's kind of it.
So, but you know, when I I dowrite every day, thank goodness
I committed myself to that.
And so, you know, I'll I'llwrite a poem every day.
When I have time, I'll go backand do the editing, you know,

(16:51):
that really wonderfulintentional work that you
mentioned, the hours put in.
And, you know, if I can, I'll dosome visual art, do a sidestep
and do some weaving or somethinglike that.
Not an ideal life, but my heartfeels at least connected to the
writing because I think writingmeans a whole lot to me.
You know, I always wrote aswell, and so that uh so that

(17:14):
serves me for now, and myteaching is the service part.
Right and service, no matterwhat topic I'm teaching, you
know.
Yeah.

And and well, I mean, it really is service
because you know, the the thingthat I sort of have done over
the past couple years, um, andand I think this relates to you
a lot, because over the pastcouple of years I have uh
realized that um there's uh anenormous amount of anxiety uh in

(17:47):
our in our society at themoment.
And uh and um you know, uh I Igo and do master classes and and
talk about all the nerdy, youknow, technical stuff of audio
and microphone positions and allthis, you know, stuff.
And um it's all important, butuh but the thing is one of the
things I've been trying to do isgive these uh younger students,

(18:09):
you know, the permission um toto not be perfect, which is
something you actually touchedon in the beginning of our
conversation.
And um the the the the sort ofyou know, I basically reject the
notion of the perfect mix.
Um I could literally spend therest of my life on a song and
find something to tweak.

(18:31):
I mean, I just could.
And so what I've started doingis taking hit songs, playing
them for the students, tellingthem the chart position, telling
them like how how much peoplethe chart position in and of
itself is you know not the goal,but it's it shows it's it's a
metric as to how much this songmeans to people that they want
to hear it so much.
And then I say, now I'm gonnatell you everything that's wrong

(18:53):
with this mix.
And so I break it down, pointout every single flaw, and then
say, now does anybody actuallycare or enjoy the song less?
And of course, nobody does.
That's you know, it doesn't itdoesn't really affect them in in
any in any way, but it's it'sthe idea of you know when how do
you know when when the piece ofart or in in my specific case

(19:14):
when the mix is done?
Because uh because as I say, youcan tweak it forever.
And so my my it's pretty simplebut but profound in the sense
that uh it's done when itcommunicates the message you
intended.
And and at that point, it'sdone.
As soon as that happens, stop.
Stop stop messing with it.
And you know, so that's that'ssomething that I think, you

(19:36):
know, that that you did, whetheryou knew it or not, you did that
for me um when when I was inyour class, because uh uh, you
know, I had I had kind of gotteninto the headspace of you know,
the anxiety of uh, you know,being a professional and the
anxiety of you know trying to bean artist, but also, you know,

(19:56):
making sure that I put food onthe table and you know, all
these things.
And so, you know, I think Ithink the the conversation that
we're having and the things thatyou're touching on, you know, um
the permission and the grace andthe you know the creative
process of just kind of lettingit do its thing, that's not to
say you can't you can't tweak itor you can't make it better, or
you can't use these surgicalskills to refine it.

(20:18):
But uh, but I think that's areally important message.
And I, for one, am glad you'reout there um, you know,
preaching this, you know,sharing this perspective,
because it's really important.
Just just the amount of anxietythat that there's there seems to
be a new baseline of anxiety,uh, especially with some of the
younger folks that are gettinginto the you know, getting into

(20:38):
the arts for the first time.
Um, do you see that from yourperspective?
Are you seeing the same, thesame kind of thing when you're
teaching classes?

SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
Yes, sadly, yes.
Um well just to look atBerkeley, you know, I've been at
Berkeley for not Berkeley Onlinefor 20 years, but in Boston and
maybe I don't know how long I'vebeen with Berkeley Online,
honestly, at least 10, but I'veno idea.
I I don't mean time is a strangething, but it is yeah, but the
students, particularly thestudents in Boston, you know.

(21:08):
I um because online you get someolder students, it's a different
mix, you know.
You get you know, it's sowhatever.
So we're not talking BerkeleyOnline.

SPEAKER_04 (21:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
But my Boston students have changed
dramatically.
When I've entered a long timeago, we could have fun in the
classroom, they could be easywith me, they could be easy with
each other, they would theywould create a community
together in the classroom.
I mean, we talked about that aclassroom is a a learning

(21:37):
community, but nonetheless, theywere open to it and easy with
it.
Now that doesn't happen.
I mean, they if they know eachother beforehand, then they'll
sit next to each other.
They try to sit way far away,they resist sitting in circles,
they just they're incrediblyanxious, they can't let go of
their phone, they can't closetheir computer, they use AI

(21:58):
incredibly much.
And they are fearful.
They literally tremble.
And I think too that thisapplies to their music.
I asked them, like I work withinternational students.
So I'm not just talking aboutAmerican culture here, which is
I think is again the same kindof thing that's competitiveness
and you know, you are what youput out in a product oriented.

(22:20):
And once we can simplifyanything, then it has to be that
perfect product.
Otherwise, it does it doesn'thave the same value, you know,
all of this, which has nothingto do with the intention of the
creation to begin with.
And so perfectionism really is adivide between the self and what
we're doing.
And and if we talk about astudent writing a paper, you

(22:43):
know, that's a creative act.
You know, you're you see youragency and your capacity to
express something.
And I do have them write aboutperfectionism in the hope that
by putting it on paper, so tospeak, they could begin to have
a more uh distant, you know, ata distant look at themselves to
realize that perfectionism isgetting in their way, you know,

(23:06):
in some way or another, eitherthat maybe they should reject it
completely or at least tempertheir relationship with it,
because they have been shaped byall kinds of things, by family
and culture and everything else,and even global at this point,
you know, that you have to beperfect, you know, people won't
love you.
And it really comes down tolove.

(23:27):
Every fear comes down to love.
It does.
And so if they don't, if theydon't write that perfect paper,
then they will fail and thenthey will be rejected and
they'll be alone in the world.
And this sounds like anexaggeration, but it is not,
because fear and love andacceptance, belonging, which is
one of the most belonging, Ithink, is the most fundamental
need of a human being.

(23:48):
We are individuals, but we alsoare communal beings, and to
belong really is is thatfundamental element, and they
feel that they will be outsideof things if they don't do that
perfect job.
They don't listen to my words,if they're too anxious.
I mean, I've seen studentstremble, literally tremble,
literally.

(24:09):
Yeah, you know, panic attacks,this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 (24:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (24:12):
Right.
So it is a hard thing.
And and what we need is we needto have a lot of not just voices
saying it, but somehow they'reallowing us to show that it's
okay.
You know, when I respond, I Ihave to grade.
I wish Berkeley didn't havegrades.
But, you know, I in comments,you know, I will support what

(24:33):
they're saying and I don't focuson unnecessary things because I
don't want them to worry.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Right.
It is the risk of honesty intheir papers, their courage to
look at themselves, you know,all of this, and then share it
with me.
That is the important thing, andand that is transferable to any
context.

(24:53):
So I don't know.
So, lecture, as I say, lectures,I think you you use the word,
the verb preach.
I can't because I can only showthrough what I do how I am in
the classroom with them, andhope that I don't see a lot of
impact immediately, but I'velived long enough to know that

(25:14):
perhaps I did impact one personor two.
And if I'm able to do that, andthe impact is a slow kind of
emergence, and maybe that personneeded to hear that and tested
it out in a year, two years,five years, whatever, has opened
up, you know, in that kind ofcourage needed to reject
perfectionism, then this is agood thing.

(25:35):
So, you know, I think teachersjust plant seeds in good faith
uh and hopefully do it with uhhumility and the and gratitude
for being able to do theplanting.
And that's all we can do, youknow, and be as loving as we can
and express that love.
That is it.
I mean, I think that is theimportant thing to have them

(25:56):
feel safe.
And it's hard to feel safe inall kinds of contexts and the
classroom because it is one ofthe safer spaces, at least it
can be it should be, yeah.
And so we enforce it too byhaving class rules that they
write.
We will be respectful, we willlisten, we won't interrupt, we
won't, you know, like we writeour class rules.

(26:18):
I mean, they do, I don't, and wepost them up and you know, refer
to them.
And so hopefully that is atleast the beginning of that
potential uh experience offeeling safe to explore and open
up the self without the worriesof uh perfect, because perfect
doesn't exist.
I'm absolutely absolutely notall and I'm grateful for it.

(26:38):
I am grateful for it.

I'd never be able to make it if I if I had to be
perfect.

SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
No, there's nothing to live for, number one.
How do you arrive?
Do you ever really want toarrive?
You know, and what does arrivalmean?

Yeah, what does it even mean?
That's right.

SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
It's the joy that there's always some the universe
is bigger than what we're ableto perceive.
It goes back to week one in ourcourse with the Lao Tzu quote
that we think that we look at ablank piece of paper and now
it's up to us just to putsomething on it, not
understanding that if we open upfor perception, we are engaged
with the universe, yeah, themultiverses.

(27:13):
You know, like everything isthere, everything is there.
We collaborate with the universein some way when we create.
It would be a rather egotisticalperspective, perhaps, to say
that we are, you know, it is allup to us.
It's not up to us.
So much bears on us.
Do you know what we think wecarry, what we see, all of this.

(27:33):
And and there's more that wedon't even know, but things are
um, you know, the differentimpacts of things that are all
swirling around us.
So I do believe that uh we justto stay humble and open, you
know, is a really wonderful way.
Show up for the hard work, asElizabeth Yilbert said in her
TED Talk, but also know thatyou're not in it alone, that

(27:54):
your muse or your daemon, as sheput it, or your genius, meaning
like a little house elf, youknow, the Romans had, you know,
uh, that you're incollaboration, you know, you're
in collaboration, and whateverhappens, happens.
And that is the thing, you know,not to feel like you have to set
a goal and achieve that goal.

(28:15):
It is the actual engagement withthe art.
That is the process and that isthe joy of it.

Absolutely right.
And it's interesting too becauseone of the things that um I
mean, I I I want to say thiscarefully, but one of the things
that I've been struck by is thatuh there are different places in
the world um where it's easierto find that community that's

(28:46):
welcoming uh and is joyful ineach other's triumphs and and
successes and supportive whenthere are hard times.
And then there are places thatare very cliquish where you know
you just it's it's hard to bepart of the community at all.
Um and I I I I really am, Iguess, I guess saddened would be
the right word.

(29:07):
I'm saddened to see that in thearts at all, frankly, because
there's a lot of pers peoplethat feel, you know, that if if
they are uh if they're notcompetitive, that there's not
enough, there's not enough uhthere's not enough fame to go
around or whatever, whatever itis you're seeking, right?
I mean, there's not you knowthere's not enough to go around.

(29:27):
And of course, my perspective onthat is that you know, the more
we work together, um the thebigger the opportunities are,
you know, the the the the largerspectrum of of things can be
done.
And it's interesting, theselittle zones that you kind of
find as you go.
Strangely enough, I mean, I'vejust recently found a community
in Los Angeles um uh uh that'sthat's just so welcoming and

(29:50):
collaborative.
And uh, you know, and I'm I'mflying out there again to do
some more work, you know, laterthis year.
And uh it's just reallyinteresting to see these sort of
pockets.
But the um I I do remember in mytime on Berkeley Online, um I
did feel uh and I was veryexcited.
This is one of the things thatyou know made me so happy to to

(30:13):
be in that uh in that programwas that uh there was a real
community and and and uh we wenine times out of ten, uh the
classes became you knowcompatriots and collaborators.
And whenever I would tourthrough an area, I could call my

(30:33):
my Berkeley online classmatesand they would come see a show.
They would come up with theirfriends and they'd come out and
support us.
And all I had to do is pick upthe phone and say, Hey, I'm
gonna be in your area.
And they're like, Okay, we'll bethere.
You know, and it it was justit's fantastic, but I don't I
don't see that as much as I usedto.
I don't, I don't, you know, itseems it seems uh just so
slightly different.
I think I think the anxiety isyou know a big part of that, you

(30:55):
know, that that there's there'sjust so much stress, but you're
you're absolutely correct asusual, that uh, you know,
everything we we experienceshapes us in ways we can't
really fully predict orunderstand.
And certainly uh my art has beenshaped by being a brain tumor
survivor.
I mean, I um I I I wouldn't I'mnot I'm not nervous about it or

(31:18):
or upset about it, but I do feelthat I am more aware of the idea
that I have a finite amount oftime to accomplish, you know,
like to like to like you know,do all the things that I want to
do with with with my craft.
And so uh uh I pretty much havetwo speeds, which is full speed
ahead and asleep.
That's what I do, you know.

(31:38):
Um do you ever do you ever Iwanna, if you don't mind, I want
to talk about something becauseI have a disability.
I know you said you got sick umuh earlier in your in your
journey, and and I really, youknow, I I used to not talk about
it much because uh there was arisk, and and I have paid the
price for this.

(31:58):
There was a risk of peoplethinking that you're sick and
you can't you can't be ofservice, that you can't
participate, that you are not upto the challenge or that you're
not worth waiting on.
And um, and so there's a risk,and I've lost some gigs.
Yeah, I've lost some someopportunities because I was
honest.
Um, but I recently, I'm agovernor for the for the Grammy
board, uh, Atlanta chapter, uh,and I'm also what's called their

(32:22):
dream ambassador.
Um, and I won't get into whatthat is, but it's it's it's
basically making sure that allthe disparate voices of the
recording academy are are seenand felt felt seen.
And um, and so I I uh we alwaysthe board members take it
particularly seriously to havementees.
And I was so fortunate to get ayoung lady mentee who has some

(32:44):
real health struggles, but she'sin she's in the music and film
industry, and I was able to giveher some some comfort in one
sense that she's not alone, thatthat they're you know, I'm I'm
doing everything I want to do,uh, and and and you know, I have
to manage my health challengesuh still.
I mean, you know, I still haveto manage them very carefully.

(33:07):
Um, and so uh, but but she's notalone, number one.
And then number two, you know,give her permission to like to
like talk about it if she if shewanted to.
Um, so I mean, do you I meanwhat do you what do you think?
I my perspective was I basicallyI'm giving you the short
version.
I I'm verbose as you know, uh,but uh the short version was if

(33:28):
they can't see your value, umsomebody else will, so don't
worry about it.
You don't want to work with themanyway.
I mean, that's that's kind ofhow I feel about it.
Like if you if you if you can'ttell from from the quality of
the work that I put out that I'mnot that I'm not worth um
participating with, then thenyou know move on to to where you
feel feel uh you know that thatyou're you're you're you're in

(33:49):
the right place.
Um but but you know, managingmanaging you know health issues
uh as an artist, which is beingan artist is already
challenging.
Um, you know, um I mean what wasthat like?
And and you know, how how do youhow do you feel about that,
about that process of uh ofbeing honest about it or talking

(34:10):
about it, like should you,shouldn't you?
What do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
I'm a private person.
Yeah so that's probably the mostpublic I've been ever.
So it's kind of weird, but I'mnot looking at anybody, so
except your lovely picture.
Do you know?
So I don't know.
But I don't know.
There's a lot, there's a lotthat you've said, and if I could
just remind me what you justasked me.
Can you remember that?
I'm not good at it.
I can.

(34:35):
Okay, do you remember that part?
But when you said I was uh whenyou said about people being
divisive and people are humanbeings, you know, it doesn't
matter what industry, they'rehuman beings, you know, and the
ego gets in the way.
Sure.
The ego and a whole lot of otherthings, you know, like women
being left out at parts of themusic industry.
I mean, that's just huge.
And so, you know, we have allthis, and so it always is to

(34:57):
find your allies.

SPEAKER_05 (34:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (34:59):
You know, if someone is not going to respect you,
then they're having issues.
It's not your issue, it'stheirs, and then you just move
on and find someone else.
Do you know?
And whether it's the band thatyou are creating or you're
selling your music, or you know,whatever it might be, you need
to find your allies becausepeople aren't always able, they
don't have the courage, thewillingness, which is related to

(35:21):
courage, to look at, I guess,what we could call difference.
Yeah.
Right.
Because in the end, we can onlylove through our differences.
Yeah.
Otherwise, you're just lovingyourself.
It's like, yay, me.
You know, it's like that'sreally what it is.
And to build community is tobridge through difference and
recognize the difference, right?
So, but many people aren't ableto do that because it is a hard

(35:44):
and scary thing, you know,because you're breaking down
those protective walls.
And so, like for an artist, Imean, an artist can wait until
maybe if someone breaks it down,but otherwise, there's always
someone, always people outthere, as you found out in LA, I
think you said, that there arepeople that are not bound by
that kind of fear, that kind ofegoism, whatever it might be,

(36:06):
and are willing to open up andbring someone into the fold,
right?
And so that is really it.
And just to remember, as VictorWuton said, uh, that we are
already worthy, you know, helearned it from his mom.
And as soon as he came out ofthe womb, he was already worthy.
Inside, that's it.
It didn't matter what peoplesaid, it didn't matter what he

(36:27):
did, none of that mattered.
That self-worth was inherent forhim as a human being on this
planet.
And I think that if we can lookat that as a foundation stone,
because indeed it is, then wecan better manage the external
challenges, you know, that areout there living on a planet

(36:48):
with human beings who areimperfect and malleable and you
know, up and down and all this,right?
So I think that's really it's achallenge because it challenges
uh predominant uh points ofview, but nonetheless, I think
that's it.
And then we we hope that at somepoint, I know you mentioned the

(37:08):
Grammy thing, and I think thatit's really great.
I also I my heart sinks too, notbecause of what you're doing,
but generally that you know youhave to have the Grammy,
otherwise you're nothing.
You know what I mean?
Right, right.
And then and some schools, uh,we won't name them, uh, tend to
like push like we celebrate thepeople who got the Grammys, and

(37:28):
anyone else you don't even talkabout.
Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 (37:30):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 (37:31):
So this is a problem.
We all, every human being offersa blessing, yes, you know, to
this world.
And we have to remember that, wehave to remember that to stay
humble and grateful, and then wecan create family together.
We really can, do you know?
My son considered his big bandhis second family, do you know?

(37:52):
And so when you're able toconsider people, not in your
biological family as family,then you know you can work
anything out, and you know thatyou celebrate each other, right?
And that if you look to eachother, you look to learn or
celebrate, but not to diminishyourselves or to aggreg
aggrandize yourself either.
It's just absolutely yeah.

(38:13):
So it's a really good thing.
So back, yeah.

Yeah, I I mean that that is that is the goal.
I mean, at my at my studio, um,I mean, the uh I have a mantra
that Joey Stucky's a drama freezone.
And uh and what I mean by that,I say that sort of tongue in
cheek, but my my point is thatum we're we're here to make
records and we're gonna andwe're we're grateful that we are

(38:36):
getting to spend this timetogether to do something you
know positive and to to do itjoyfully.
And we and that that is reallythe experience that that I that
I insist upon bringing to thetable of uh of you know being a
being a part of the team thatthat helps an artist you know

(38:57):
get their art ready to beshared, um, you know, in in in
the sense of a recorded, youknow, a fixed format recorded
piece of art.
Um, you know, we we we really wereally focus a lot on the
joyfulness and maintainingjoyfulness, even amongst
adversity.
Um, you know, uh becausesometimes you know making a
record's hard.

(39:18):
I mean, you know, and it's ityou know, there there are times
we're like, oh, I feel like I'venever picked up this guitar
before in my life.
What's going on today?
But uh it's just, you know, wewe just we do that and we're so
excited to welcome people to thecommunity.
And and I always believe ingiving of my time.
And you know, when people newcome to town, I mean, I will

(39:38):
absolutely say, you're you'rewelcome here and like stop by
for a visit unless, you know,uh, unless let's let's talk and
let's let's get to know eachother and let's share.
And it's it's an absolute joyand privilege when that happens.
It just really is.
And you're right, we we'vetalked about it on this show
before uh with some otherguests.
You know, the the Grammy,there's nothing wrong with being

(39:58):
celebrated for anaccomplishment.
That's that's fine.
But a lot of people, when theysee that as the end gold, you
know, when when when when that'syou know the the end uh when
when that's the purpose.
It's not it's not it's notwhether the music's you know
reaching people or whether youenjoyed making it or anything

(40:19):
else.
If you the there are those whofeel, you know, if you don't
have that accolade, then thenthere's no value that attaches.
And you you know, that's that'sa really sad situation.
And I I think that's uh as yousay, that's a that's a real
problem.
I think I think the um you knowthe the anytime anytime that you
have this sort of have to havethe external validation to to

(40:42):
enjoy what you've done, um, Imean it just seems to me that
you know you're you're burningyou're burning daylight.
You're you're missing a chanceto to be joyful and to to to to
be appreciative and and and youknow and find value within
yourself.
And I will say that my mom anddad did such an incredible job.
Um, and this is before there wasno ADA when I was a child.

(41:06):
There was no, you know, therewas no uh there was no system in
place to help really uh when Iwas a child of the the the 80s,
you know.
And and so um they did such anincredible job not making me
feel like I was weird or that Iwas different in a bad way, uh
uh or or you know that I waslike too sick to to do things.

(41:27):
Like if I if I if I felt like itand I thought I could, then then
we would.
And if if I didn't, then wesaid, well we'll we'll do it
next time.
You know, it was they they justreally stepped up to the plate
and and just somehow throughthrough their love of me,
somehow they made everythingokay.

(41:48):
And they they really gave me asense of self-worth so that I
didn't feel bad about myself.
I didn't feel like upset that Iwas, I mean, I didn't want to be
sick, but I mean, you know,nobody likes to be in the
hospital all the time.
But but but I mean, but I mean,you know, they didn't, I didn't
feel like I was a burden.
I didn't feel like I was likesignificantly different from

(42:10):
anybody else, uh, whether Icould see or not see, whether I
had, you know, I was sick or notsick, and you know, uh, they
just I just sort of just got onwith living and and and and you
know, did everything I could.
So that's the that's theexperience that I try to bring
um to my to my field, to my tomy craft as as much as I can.
Um but but they allowed me to,much like your mom, they they

(42:34):
allowed me to be curious and toexplore things and you know, and
and all that stuff.
And it was really, reallyimportant.
And that's kind of the thingthat I'm doing now in the studio
is letting the artists explore,and then I guide them with some
ideas, and they can take them oror not take them.
It doesn't offend me if theydecide they don't want to, you
know, so I I can help them, youknow, you know, explore uh the

(42:58):
world of sound together.
But I I do think that, you know,as I say, you know, there there
is a challenge um of of uh of ofof being being comfortable in
who you are, and then as yousay, just to also to to to find
that love and to and to shareit.
That is that is the ultimategoal.
And I have a song that I wrotecalled One Song at a Time, which

(43:19):
is encapsulates exactly what yousaid of planting the seed and
hoping that you know it it doessome good.
And and uh I'm content to tobring joy and positivity and
inspiration to people one personat a time, one song at a time,
yeah, you know, for as long asI'm able to do it.
Um but I I just yeah, I justthought that it was, you know,

(43:40):
that it was interesting the thethe um just you know the way
that uh for me the arts havealways been a great source of
comfort and uh and you knowgreat source of uh inspiration
and make me feel better when I'mhaving a bad you know, a bad day
physically.
Uh because there there are daysMost of the time I'm I make it

(44:02):
work.
But every once in a while, uh mymy body will get the better of
me.
I'm like, oh, okay, today's notgonna happen.
I've gotta I'm gonna have to sitdown today.
But uh it's handy to having awife that's a nurse because she
can tell me when I'm when I'mpushing too hard.
Because my instincts to push.
My instincts to just pushthrough it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (44:21):
Yeah, of course.
It's a survival instinct.
I mean, I know you would I saidI was a private person and I am,
so but when you know I startgetting sick, it's then a matter
of doing two things.
One, what can you do to empoweryourself, right?
Yeah.
What works and what doesn't.
And then two, reframing whatblessing means.

SPEAKER_03 (44:41):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (44:41):
Right.
And so those things, I don'tknow, I didn't do a particularly
good job.
Like when I first got sick, likein college, I was just like, I
don't know, it was sort ofday-to-day, you know, not, you
know, I trying to sort thingsout.
But when I got older,particularly when I was
diagnosed in my, I don't evenknow how old I was, like my late
20s, then um I said, okay, nowwhat am I going to do?

(45:02):
So at first it was like adesperation.
I have to do something concrete,right?
To speak to my absolute uh kindof the betrayal of the body,
this violation that'll be forthe rest of my life.
And you know, what do I do?
Like everything was completelyuprooted and whatever, at least
that what I that's what I felt.
And I refused to lie down to it.

(45:22):
Right.
And so I never went to supportgroups because I felt that I
just couldn't, I couldn't livewith other people's suffering.
You know, it's like I'm justdealing with mine.
So anyway, and uh so I did themost concrete thing I could do,
which was um be a bodybuilder,as strange as that was.

SPEAKER_04 (45:39):
So interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (45:40):
Yeah, yeah, because it was concrete, it was
absolutely concrete.
So I could manage because Icouldn't run anymore.
I, you know, I couldn't do thosekinds of things because I could
barely breathe.
And so I could always go in thegym and do this, but not that,
this, but not that.
And and of course, the way I amI took it to an extreme because
I needed that extreme physicalevidence that I could be this

(46:04):
living paradox of the moststrong version of myself that I
ever could be, all the whilebeing uh the weakest version of
myself because of the illness.
I love paradoxes, you know.
So, anyway, so this is it.
And this really helped me.
And also I framed, as I like towrite, as I said, this kind of

(46:24):
metaphor.
And so I became it's sort oflike I became the warrior,
right?
The warrior who would rise up,you know, courageously every
day, get out of bed and dowhatever, right?
So, but after a point, uh, themetaphor was difficult to keep
living with the warrior, withthe shields get heavy and all
this, you know what I mean?

(46:45):
It's like armor's heavy.
So I realized, and JamesBaldwin, I love James Baldwin,
but he has some quote that youknow, we can we can't, we can at
some point we can't keepfighting the battle, right?
So I realized that I could notcontinue to be the warrior, at
least the warrior only.
And so I kind of translated myrole with in relation,

(47:08):
everything is relation to theillness, to companion, like how
can I walk with you?
You know, how do we walktogether?
Interesting life.
And so at times I have to be thewarrior, I do.
But generally, uh, what is moresustainable is the companion,
you know, how to live on aday-to-day basis with this
thing, how to talk to it, youknow, negotiate my feelings and

(47:31):
all of this.
And I really didn't share, Ididn't share anything about
myself at all unless I had to.

unknown (47:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (47:40):
You know what I'm saying?
Like if a situation put me in aparticular risk related to my
illness, I would have to say,you know, something like this.
But otherwise I went undergroundbecause I didn't see the point
in sharing, because it's aninvisible illness and don't
understand it.
And so, which I understand thatthey don't understand it.
Um, but nonetheless, and soeventually I did have to apply

(48:02):
for disability at Berkeley, youknow, like I can only walk, I
can't always walk this, this,this, you know what I mean?
Like, I need this, that, that.
And that was very difficultthings.
That's another negotiation.
How do you and this applies toanything as an artist, too?
It's okay if you go for advice,it's okay if you your idea is
not chosen in a collaborativecontext, you know what I mean?

(48:24):
Like all this.
And so, because people see it asa weakness, asking for help or
or leading towards someoneelse's voice or something like
this.
And so I had to negotiate how doI keep my strength going and say
that I have to make thiscompromise by asking for help,
right?
And so all of these things arereally great lessons.

(48:45):
But in the end, on a on a daythat for a minute or two, or
sometimes a whole day, when whenI am able to walk and feel
strong or whatever, and I'vegone back to the gym too.
For the last month, I've beengoing back to the gym, which is
great because I needed to dothat again.
Yes, I need again, you know, at71 years old, yay me.
Anyway, so so yeah, it's it'sbeen great because I needed it.

(49:06):
See, again, the strategy, youknow, okay, we got to fight all
these things happening, so let'sdo it.
But it's lovely.
There are blessings every day,every day.
And so the blessings don't innumber, do not have to equal the
so-called curses.
Absolutely.
The so-called curse is ablessing.
It really is.
If we reframe it and understandthat if we if I were not sick,

(49:31):
then I may not notice all thesethings.
I would not feel the joy of theblessings that I do.
It just in contrast.
And so this is it.
I mean, we kind of live in aworld of balances, you know.
If you suffer for these twothings, then the only thing
that'll balance out is two goodthings.
And no, not it at all.
Not at all.
I mean, I could have faroutweighed the difficult with

(49:53):
like the moment, just that onemoment in a day when I looked
out at the sun on the lake,like, you know, and then
everything else poofs away, youknow, and what a beautiful
blessing it is, and how gratefulwe can be that we're able to
witness that, and we may nothave witnessed it if we were
just in a different mode, adifferent life, you know, like
all of this.

(50:14):
And so I don't know if thatanswered your question, but this
is kind of it.
And finally I ended up writingabout it.
So this isn't the second mostpublic thing, you know.
Yeah, yeah.

Well, I appreciate you, I appreciate you talking to
me about it because I just feellike it's so important to let
people know that that you don'tthat you can um you can have a
life that's worthwhile, um, youknow, essentially if you decide
to.
I mean, that's that's at somepoint it you know becomes a

(50:43):
joyfulness becomes a choice.
And you know, and you're right.
What I love that you said, andand this is so cool because you
know, some days you have to bethe warrior and some days you
don't.
I mean, it's you have acomplicated uh you know
relationship that's evolving.
And uh, and there are days whereI where I'm absolutely psych
myself up and I feel terrible,and but I psych myself up and

(51:07):
and just you know get it get itdone.
And you know, but the thingabout what's different for me
and is a blessing in some ways,um, is that I have been doing
this since I was 18 months old.
And so I I'm I'm good at it.
I mean, you know, I it's it'snot new for me.
Like I wasn't, you know, in my20s and all of a sudden, you

(51:28):
know, everything changed, or youknow, that or that that's kind
of so you know, for me, um, youknow, I have a bit of an
advantage in in the sense thatI've been learn I've learned how
to deal with this for a longtime.
And when I was young, I had alot of people helping me carry
the load and teaching me how tohow to handle things and how to
deal with it.

(51:48):
And my parents were there toalways, you know, uh tell me uh,
you know, it it's this is okay.
You know, this is this is okay.
And so that's you know, that I Italk about it now.
As I say, when I was younger, Ididn't.
Uh the blindness is honestlylike the easy part to handle.
It's the it's the other stuff.

(52:09):
I take about 40 pills a day.
And it and you know, and uh, andand there are days that I go, oh
my God, not another pill.
But um, you know, better livingthrough chemistry.
But it's it's it's uh it's oneof those things where um you
know I'm I'm taking things thatum replacements from things my
body doesn't do.
So like I don't have adrenalfunction, which can be very
challenging.
So anyway, I appreciate yousharing that with me.

(52:30):
And and I want to touch on onone last thing um uh while while
I got you, and and and this isuh this is my pet peeve.
I'm gonna admit this is mysoapbox.
I'm gonna I'm gonna try and beuh not too too too soapboxy, but
I do want, and you mentioned itbriefly, I do want to talk about
as an artist, your thoughts onartificial intelligence and and

(52:55):
its disruption in the in thecreative spaces.
Like I I'm just real interestedin your perspective on this.
Um I have some very uh specificthoughts, which everybody knows
already, so I'm not gonna boreyou with those again, but uh,
but I'm just curious how whatyou what you're seeing and what
you're thinking about aboutthat.

SPEAKER_01 (53:13):
Okay.
Well, first of all, I do want toacknowledge that I can
understand people saying that AIis a tool like the computer
itself or like a cell phone oreven a paintbrush, right?
It's a tool, and people canargue that point and there's
validity to it.
However, um given that I wasborn and lived my first two

(53:36):
decades with or more, evenwithout a computer, I didn't
even had a word processor incollege and a word processor,
really heavy thing.
So just to kind of put it that Ireally came from a different
planet, so to speak, in thatway, do you know?
So I I've been living the highcontrast of it.
But I do see the danger of it,and I really fear it, and I it's

(54:00):
not because it's change.
I mean, change is anything is adisruptor.
Anything that changes, right?
That that uh says, okay, we dothis and now our world will
change.
Of course, it means disruption,and generally disruption offers
both positive and negative.
The positive is efficiency andgreater capacity, maybe to do

(54:21):
certain things.
I mean, I don't know, for AI, Iguess.
I don't know.
I haven't touched it, I refuseit.
But umetheless, but I doinherently, you know,
instinctively fear it, and Ihave seen the results, as I had
mentioned earlier, of on mystudents in terms of just
technology technology itself.

(54:41):
I have seen my students notwrite at all anything of their
own, and then it's completelyAI.
And they trust AI to the pointthat they don't even reread a
paper that actually iscompletely off topic, right?
I mean, like this.
And so they have completelyyielded who they are as being
blessed to be human beings whohave the capacity to think and

(55:06):
express.
They have completely given upthat freedom.
Now, this is a scary thing, justgenerally for humanity.
There was a philosopher, uh, Idon't know, he has a long list
of things that he did, but hewas a French person who wrote
the well, in translation, it's atechnological society, and wrote
it in 1954.

(55:28):
And he talks about this thatjust if we allow ourselves to
create, he called it latechnique, but he wasn't just
talking about technology.
He really meant an environmentthat we created, you know, with
technology, and that we let thatenvironment, not the natural
environment, that doesn't existfor us anymore, right?

(55:50):
That but these this uh he callsit an ensemble, actually, that
is this technological ensemblein which we live, we allow it
to, it's a milieu.
That was his word, and he itallows that technological
environment to define us, and wethink through efficiency that we

(56:11):
are free, but in fact, freedomis an illusion.
It is not this technology, thisillusory kind of world that
we've created with technologygeneral, and I even know what he
would say about AI, and theman's not alive anymore, but I
can just imagine that we are notliberated as we think we are,
but this world that we'vecreated actually enslaves us,

(56:33):
but it's the illusion offreedom.
Right.
And so I think about that, and Ieven think about the song that
came out in 69, do you know,like the year 25-25?
It was by Zeger and Evans.
Do you know that one?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like we won't need to have oureyes, our teeth, our hands, our
legs, our, you know, we won'teven have family.

(56:54):
We just choose it, like kind ofgoing to a test tube store.
Like we're subjugating ourhumanity.
We are blessed.
We come into this world and wehave so much capacity to feel,
to think, to create.
We are all artists, we are allborn artists.
We are just some are blessed toactually live out their art and

(57:16):
some are not.
But our instinct is to be anartist, is to create.
We just see these examplesthroughout history.
If you go to World War II, yousee prisoners, you know, Jewish
prisoners in concentration, ormaybe not just Jewish, but in
concentration camps, orTerranstadt, where all that
beautiful music came out ofknowing these composers, knew

(57:38):
that they inevitably, and it'strue, would be shipped off and
killed, right?
But yet they wrote, even Senatorthe former Senator John McCain,
when he was a prisoner of war,right?
He he tapcoated, well, hereceived the tapcoat of poetry.
And it was through thetapcoating of poetry that he was
able to live as a prisoner ofwar for the length of time that

(58:02):
he did.
A Chinese dissident who died inprison relatively recently, he
was not given paper and pencil.
So he wrote poems in the air.
We are driven, we are driven tocreate because we know this is
the blessing that we have as ahuman being.
We know it is the food beyondfood, more fundamental than

(58:25):
food, clothing and so forth.
The poet Maya Angelou said thatblack slaves survive because of
music and storytelling, thecreative act.
She didn't include food there oranything else, right?
We need to create.
And AI, we are subjugatingourselves, we're surrendering

(58:46):
who we are in that creativecapacity, who we are as human
beings, fully aware of theblessings and being grateful for
them, and then use them to honorthem.
We are giving those totechnology, and then where will
we be?
We we maybe maybe the poemssound great, maybe the music
sounds great, the everything islovely, and we and maybe it is,

(59:09):
and some of it looks cool, Iguess.
I'm not judging quality oranything else, but I'm saying
what is the cost?
We have to look at the cost, andthe cost I think is too great,
and so I am fearful.

I I'm with you on this, and I have gotten uh a lot
of hate directed my way uh onFacebook and places like that
where I try to very reasonably,you know, articulate the points
that you've just made sobeautifully.
And and and you know, my mypoint is like, well, without the
without the struggle, withoutthe humanity, like what is the

(59:46):
purpose of the content thatyou're making?
I mean, what you know, how dohow is it how is it valuable?
Um, and and that's that's thereal question.
And and you're right, we'resurrendering all these things to
the technology.
And I, you know, um I I considermyself a bit of a scientist.
I mean, I I exist in a verytechnical world.

(01:00:07):
I mean, I I deal withfrequencies and and dynamics and
all these things that are uhmanipulated to make recordings,
and you know, the microphoneplacement is uh is based on
scientific principle uh of howthings work and you know what
the polar pattern is and how I'mcapturing fundamental
frequencies based or partials orovertones or so there's all this

(01:00:29):
stuff, but you know, that stuffis all in aid um of making
something as a human.
Uh it's not in lieu of it.
And and I and what's reallyconcerning is uh that um you
know people are are are sort ofanthropomorphizing some of these
chatbots and and giving themattributes they don't actually

(01:00:52):
have.
And and I just have to say, heyguys, you know, the the it's not
really thinking.
It's not really this is youknow, this is not a this is not
a real being.
You know, this is this is aprogram and that's that's
designed to uh and and thecreators of these AI chatbots
admit it.
I mean, they're designed toreinforce whatever bias you
bring to the table.
Um, so you know, it's there's nocollaboration or anything like

(01:01:15):
that.
I mean, uh so it is concerning.
And I I am um I'm an avid readerjust as you are.
Uh, and uh um, you know, as a asa sick child, meaning books for
my refuge.
And uh, you know, I don't knowif if you read much Isaac
Asimov, but I uh, you know, hewas a brilliant man who who
wrote a lot of different books,but you know, he has the ideas
of these three laws of roboticsand and uh you know ways of

(01:01:37):
putting guardrails aroundtechnology um so that we we we
view it in its place as a as atool uh and don't surrender to
it.
Um I'm afraid of um you know uhwithout getting way political,
um you know, there's somecompanies out there who have
recently released a 22-pointmanifesto that essentially says

(01:02:02):
that the people that create thisAI technology should be
governing the world and uh andeverybody should be using and
you know these big corporationsare trying to make AI um uh part
of our lives in a way that's soprofound that we can't imagine
not being not having them.
And I I'm you know I'm alreadyaware that I rely too much on my

(01:02:25):
cell phone because it's beenseducely made very powerful in
our lives.
And the truth is we don't reallyneed it.
I mean, not really.
I mean, I mean when I was a kid,I didn't have it, I didn't miss
it.
I mean, you know, but but now Ifeel like like something's wrong
if I don't have my phone.
Uh and and so I think there'syou know, I think there's a

(01:02:46):
danger in in that that's part ofthe insidiousness of of being
trapped by uh by the technologyand and sort of suckered into
thinking that we have to have itand we have to surrender our
humanity to it.
So yeah, I I feel very much thesame way.
And um, and and the thing is, Imean, you know, I can I can I
can make the most cogent,relevant, you know, points and

(01:03:10):
and very gently, like not tryingto shame anybody, not trying to
say that AI doesn't have thingsit can do and should do.
Uh but man, it's uh the thecritical thinking, you know,
about this about this uhtechnology is is uh is not as
prevalent as one might think.
And and boy, people just like,oh, you're a Luddite.

(01:03:31):
I'm like, no, I'm I'm reallynot.
I rely on technology to survive.
I use screen readers as a blindperson.
So I like technology, but youknow, this this AI is it is it
is troublesome.
Um and you know, the I that'ssomething that we're gonna
continue to struggle with, Isuppose, you know, as artists
and as as as beings, um, youknow, for the next little while.

(01:03:53):
So this is why people like youare so important to me uh to
share that perspective and anduh to help us continue to think
um about you know the cost uh ofof what it is.
So I appreciate that and uh andappreciate you you you sharing
that with me because that'sreally you said it better than I
could.

(01:04:14):
So which is why I ask you to bewith yesterday, because I'm so
I'm so uh enamored at your atyour at your mind and your
spirit.
I'm so such a fan of the beingthat you are, and I appreciate
your your time very much so.
And and I want to say one otherthing um before I allow you to
to close with any thoughts thatwe haven't talked about.

(01:04:35):
Uh, I just want to say that mywife and I uh talk about you on
a on a regular basis, and one ofthe things that you have always
said, and that is when you toldme in class the definition of
silly.
And uh and that silly originallymeant blessed.

(01:04:57):
And uh, and so we uh we are verysilly.
I have a weird sense of humor,and you know, I'm I'm joyful, I
laugh at silly stuff, and youknow, I I collect unashamedly.
I'm a man in my late 40s thatcollects stuffed animals.
Um I love them.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:12):
I've always got two bunnies that are looking at me
right now.

Joey Stuckey (01:05:14):
Oh nice! I listen, I am I where wherever we travel,
I always grab a stuffed animalsomewhere because it's a very
tangible um souvenir for me.
Obviously, like postcards andposters, you know, don't really
have an impact on you if youcan't see them.
But but a little stuffed animaldoes.
And so um I actually have Iactually have found one now.

(01:05:36):
Uh I'm not gonna promote thebrand because they're not
sponsoring me, but they should.
But I I've found I've found onethat's weighted and I have
chronic pain in uh in myshoulder and my neck.
And uh this little guy is soawesome because I can put him on
top of my hot pad or my ice packand keep it from moving.
So great.

(01:05:56):
And so I have this I have thislittle dinosaur I carry with me
when we try.
And I said it, but anyway, yeah,I I love stuffed animals and you
know, I love, I just love I lovebeing silly.
I love and we are silly all daylong.
And uh and you know, we just wewe love to laugh and we love to
bring joy.
And that was such a whenever Imean we we think of you so

(01:06:18):
because we I mean I must say,you know, what does silly mean,
Jen?
And she's like blessed.
And so we we are we you knowwe're we're always we we think
of you a lot because you are soawesome.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:30):
Yeah.

So I wanted you, I just wanted you to know how
special you are and uh and totell you publicly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:37):
Well, thank you so much.
Well, we we need to always goback to children and watch them
play.
And do you know, because thenext uh meaning after the the
etymological route, which wassilly, was uh innocence, right?
And and so how were we beforethe world taught us to be
something else?
And so it's it's so important.

(01:06:57):
So these little stuffed animalslike the like the dinosaur you
have and the two bunnies, eachthey have their own personality,
feel differently.
One sits up and one isn't.
Yeah, so they all do you know,they each offer us something, do
you know, and to like kind oferase the boundaries, you know,
and just be a human being on theplanet, you know, and appreciate
the source of joy that it is tohave that wonder and that

(01:07:22):
permission to be silly, as yousay, uh as adults, you know.

Yeah, so important.
It just it helps me like justcope.
I really, I just I love it.
And uh, and I have to say mywife is so wonderful because she
uh she she thinks thateverything I do is perfectly
normal and uh and that she's youknow, I've I've you know, I I

(01:07:47):
mean I grew up as uh uh obsessedwith sound and I still am.
And uh, you know, I haverecorders everywhere, I have
microphones everywhere.
I mean, it's just they're justyou just you know, they're
everywhere.
And she, if I hear aninteresting sound while we're
walking through New New YorkCity or something, she doesn't
think I'm crazy at all when Istop and go, hang on, I gotta
record this.

(01:08:08):
She just lets me be, she justlets me be blessed, lets me be
silly, and let me do whatever Iwant.
And uh and uh, you know, and andshe joins in the fun, you know,
and and it's just it'sfantastic, it really is.
And and it makes life so worthliving.
Is there anything else you wantto put out in the universe
before I allow you to have therest of your day back?
Um that we didn't cover,anything you think is important

(01:08:29):
that people should should hear.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:32):
Well, I don't know.
I mean, who am I really?
I'm not offering any way ofliving a life as an expert, you
know.
I only speak from the life thatI live, and I try to recognize
that other people thinkdifferently.
Sure.
Anything that I've said is justasking for people to just take a

(01:08:52):
chance and sort of open thewindow and kind of test that
air, you know, what is thatlike, you know?
I think that's important.
But at the end of the day, and Idon't mean this necessarily in a
religious sense, but we wedon't, and I think even Jacques
Alul talked about this, thatthat, you know, the world is
full of uncertainty.
I mean, it is, and it always hasbeen, by the way, even as much

(01:09:15):
as we create plans and do allthese things, every moment is
uncertain.
And so to understand that livingis a matter of faith that, oh,
who was it?
There was a philosopher, hislast name is Weinger, and he
taught he had what I call the asif philosophy, that we live as
if we have another moment andanother moment.
And it's not said in a morbidway, but it's said to really

(01:09:38):
hone in on the blessings thatare that are offered to us
moment by moment and moment.
So living is really an act offaith in that way, and it comes
as a Lulu said at the price ofdoubt.
Of course, we do doubt, we areafraid, but if we can recognize
that and take the step forward,right?
And with eagerness and with artto bolster us, to know, to rise

(01:10:02):
up every day, as my my Angelousaid, then we will have that
courage, we will have that senseof agency that art gives us,
that sustains us, that'sinternal and not external.
Yes.

Absolutely, absolutely.
And it and that is that is thatis the price.
That is, that is the that's thepriceless thing, um, and why I
wanted you so much for aconversation on this podcast,
because the goal is always toeducate and entertain, but but
also um just to share these newideas.
And as I told you, you know, themy concern has has always has
been uh the higher sort of baselevel of anxiety that I've been

(01:10:40):
detecting in our industry.
Um and so uh we're we're we'rehopeful that uh that people will
find some some some kernel ofinspiration that will guide them
to new pathways.
So that's always that's alwaysthe goal.
And uh, and if not, maybe theygot they get were entertained by
some of the some of the sillythings we had to say.
So that's that's good.
And I'm glad to know you're astuffed analyl enthusiast.

(01:11:01):
So I thank you so much for yourtime and no pressure, but you're
my guru as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:07):
So I appreciate it.
Yeah, well, thank you.
It's been such a joy talking toyou.
It really has.
It's been so long.
I don't even know how long agowere you in the class, Joey?

I can't remember that far back.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:22):
This is a thing.
So what a joy it is to stillstay connected over.

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:28):
Yeah, that's a blessing in and of itself.

It it really is, my friend.
And please, uh, please I'm gonnastay in better touch because you
and I always communicate aroundthe holidays, and um, and I
always make sure you know we'rethinking about you.
But we we need to we need tonext time I'm in Boston, I just
hadn't been back that way, butuh a visit's overdue.
So it's I would love it.
And I I appreciate you and andtell Nick I said hello, and uh

(01:11:52):
we'll stay in good touch, and Iwill let you know when this when
this airs so you can listen toit or or not.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:58):
Nick would love to hear it.
So thank you.

Yeah, well he'll get he'll he'll get some he may
get a secret or two that hedidn't know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:04):
I don't know about that.
We share a lot, like I like youand Jen do.

So yeah, yeah, we're we're we're a team.
Every yeah, I mean everything wedo is you know we're we're we're
uh we have no secrets.
We we know we Jen knows I'm notperfect, she's okay with it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:18):
Yeah, no.
Well, no one is Joey.
That's right.
She loves you for who you are,not for I don't know what some
illusory kind of an illusion,whatever it might be.

So I thank you.
Have a wonderful day.
Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:31):
All right, take care.

Much love, friend.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:34):
Same here.

Bye bye.
Bye.

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Episode 9: Ellen Francese on Creative Permission, Perfectionism, AI, and Art as Survival

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