May 11, 2026 • 48 mins
On this episode of Swallow Your Pride, we are talking about what SLPD is the SLPD, and who is it actually for? Theresa sits down with four speech-language pathologists who pursued the clinical doctorate while working full time, raising families, and staying deeply rooted in patient care. Dr. Erin McCarthy (D'Youville University / Northwestern), Dr. Irene Brettman (Mass General / MGH Institute), Dr. D'Anna Nowack (Baylor University / Nova Southeastern), and Dr. Courtney V. Moore (Rocky Mountain University) share why they chose the SLPD over the PhD or EdD, what the programs actually cover (hint: way more than you'd expect), and how the degree changed their career trajectories in ways they didn't see coming. They also break down the recent elimination of the CAA's 51% faculty rule and what that means for clinician-educators across the country. Whether you're considering an advanced degree or just curious about what the SLPD brings to the table, this one's worth your time.
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The post 397 – SLP to SLPD: What the Clinical Doctorate Actually Looks Like from the Inside appeared first on Swallow Your Pride Podcast.
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(00:00):
On this episode of the Sawyer Pride podcast,
we have four incredible guests on the show
today. And instead of reading you all four
full long bios, I'm gonna just give you
a quick version. I don't mean to downplay
any of the amazing credentials or success that
they have just so we can be timely
with this. So first up, we have doctor
Erin McCarthy. She's a board certified specialist in
(00:20):
swallowing disorders and the director of clinical education
at D'Youville University's graduate SLP program
and the owner of Rochester Feeding and Swallowing
Therapy in Rochester, New York. Her clinical work
spans pediatric dysphagia, adult neurogenic dysphagia, post activation
dysphagia, and the role of oral care in
preventing nonventilator
hospital acquired pneumonia.
(00:41):
Joining her is doctor Courtney Moore. He is
assistant program director at Rocky Mountain University of
Health Professions.
Courtney brings over fifteen years of clinical experience
and his doctoral capstone focused on dysphagia care
for acute stroke patients.
Next, we have doctor Deanna Nowak, a certified
SLP and certified brain injury specialist with more
than twenty five years in neurorehabilitation.
(01:01):
She's an assistant clinical professor and assistant clinical
director for the Baylor online program with deep
experience across inpatient rehab, acute care, and long
term care focused on dysphagia, motor speech, and
adult neurocognitive disorders. Her dissertation focused on evidence
based practice in the medical setting.
And last but not least, we have doctor
Irene Bretman. She's an acute she's an inpatient,
(01:22):
acute, and outpatient medical SLP in Boston and
an instructor in the MS and SLPD programs
at the MGH Institute of Health Professions.
Her work centers on dysphagia and aphasia in
the adult neurogenic population,
telemedicine and cultural humility in medical SLP.
Alright. So let's get into it.
(01:52):
Welcome to the Swallow Your Pride podcast. I'm
your host, Teresa Richard. I'm a board certified
specialist in swallowing and swallowing disorders,
a mobile thieves business owner and founder of
the Medis SLP collective.
This podcast is all about delivering the latest
evidence based practice to medical SLPs everywhere.
Whether you're a new clinician seeking tangible tools
for treatment or a seasoned vet stuck in
(02:13):
a rut, my goal is to help ditch
the old school ways of the past that
no longer serve you or your patients, to
reinvigorate your passion for our field, to broaden
your knowledge about our scope of practice, and
to inspire you to practice at the top
of your license. So if you're listening, I
encourage you to swallow your pride, be open
and willing to learn because let's face it,
your patients deserve that kind of care. With
(02:34):
that, let's dive right in. Just a quick
disclaimer that all statements and opinions expressed in
this episode do not reflect on the organizations
associated with the speakers and are their own
opinions solely.
Alright. Good morning, everybody. Thank you so much
for joining me. I'm I'm so, so, so
excited to record this episode with all of
you.
Erin, I'm gonna let you go first. I've
(02:56):
gosh. I've known Erin for many, many, many
years, and it's so fun to just be
at this point in our career where all
of your smart friends are doing really cool
stuff and actually saying and doing all of
the cool stuff they've said they wanted to
do over the years. So, Erin, take it
away. Who are you? Why are we here?
Well, hi. Good morning, Theresa. Thank you so
much for having us all on today.
My name is Doctor. Erin McCarthy and I
(03:17):
am the director of clinical education for D'Youville
University's,
speech pathology program
and the reason that we're joining all of
you today
is to talk about,
the SLPD,
the degree, which is the clinical doctorate for
speech pathology.
And I am joined today by, as you
(03:37):
said, some of my brilliant colleagues that I've
gotten to meet because of getting my SLPD
a few years ago. So, Doctor. Irene Bretman,
who is at, Mass Gen,
Doctor. Deanna Nowak, who is, at Baylor University,
and then Doctor. Courtney Moore, who is at,
Rocky Mountain University of Health Professions. And
(03:57):
so
we all,
we met
one another with over the course of the
past two years
as we joined a larger consortium
of clinicians
who,
had gotten their SLPD degree
SLPD degrees from various universities across the country.
(04:18):
And, we all
kind of came together a couple years ago
at the national,
CAPCID conference
and, we did a breakout networking group one
evening and just realized
how many of us were so passionate about
the profession,
so passionate about the degree,
so passionate about what we did and how
(04:40):
this degree really
elevated our,
professional
journeys that we were all on. So
over the course of the past two years,
we've been getting together
oh gosh, I don't know if it's monthly
or if it's quarterly, I don't remember,
but we've been getting together, we've been,
meeting regularly, we've been talking about issues in
(05:00):
the profession,
we've all,
joined together and written submissions to the CAPS
conference
to, ASHA. We just actually submitted again for,
this year to present.
Courtney presented,
last year,
on the SLPD degree. So,
I'm gonna let him talk a little bit
about that today.
(05:21):
And,
we just really wanted to come on and
answer some questions about it, talk about our,
personal reasons for pursuing SLPD,
and then give all of your listeners just
a little bit of insight into what the
degree actually is.
Because I know that I said that once
you know, I'm I'm on Facebook. I'm on
(05:43):
Instagram.
You know, I'm in all of these speech
pathology,
you know, listservs and chat rooms and everything.
And I would say probably once a month,
there's at least one person that comes on
and says, I wanna pursue a higher degree.
I'm thinking of doing SLPD
versus PhD. What's the difference?
And each one of us on here today
(06:05):
has all gotten on and, you know, tried
to enlighten and educate people on what the
SLPD degree is. So,
we thought, you know, why not come on
your podcast and do that? So with that,
I'm gonna turn it over to my colleagues.
Irene, if you wanna go next.
Sure. Thank you, Erin.
(06:25):
I am very excited to be here today.
So as Erin mentioned, I'm out in Boston.
I'm affiliated with Mass General primarily.
I'm an inpatient and outpatient clinical speech language
pathologist,
work in the adult medical space,
with the neuro population
and had been working clinically
(06:47):
for,
eight years when I kinda got that itch
of, you know, I wanna
wanna go back. I wanna learn more. I
wanna do more.
I, you know, wasn't really sure which path
to take. Should I do PhD? Should I
do an EDD?
And then I learned about the SLPD,
and I kind of,
you know, let it marinate
(07:08):
for a while
and then ultimately
decided to go back and do my SLPD
at the MGH Institute of Health Professions in
Boston,
which is where I got my master's.
And it was just, you know, it was
a it was a tremendous experience. And I
think in in many ways, it
elevated
(07:29):
my clinical practice.
And since then, you know, one of the
reasons that I I went for it was
because I
was very curious about kind of
bridging the clinical and the academic worlds and
had always been interested in research, but didn't
really know how to start. I wasn't really
sure what to do. And so this this
(07:51):
degree just felt very right for me for
a number of reasons, which I'm sure we'll
kinda go into. Decided on the SLPD, and
here I am.
Deanna?
I'm Deanna Nowak, and it is such an
honor to be here, and I'm super excited
to talk about this topic.
You know, my journey started adult medical, all
the different acute care, inpatient rehab, outpatient.
(08:14):
I just I fell in love with the
the medical side of it.
I'm a self proclaimed nerd, so I love
to learn.
But throughout that time, I really developed a
passion
for working with the graduate students that I
had, and I loved watching
their minds come in at the beginning of
the trimester and then learn so much.
(08:35):
So it just developed this passion for evidence
based practice and are we using teaching them
to use evidence based practice, think teaching them
to use critical thinking.
And so as time went on, after a
little more than twenty years, I was like,
okay, what's the next step? You know, what's
the next step? How can I invest myself
in these students' lives and and make a
(08:55):
bigger impact? And so I was like, well,
I love higher ed.
And I was like, well, a friend of
mine introduced me to the SLPD program. So
I did my SLPD at NOVA,
Southeastern University and have loved every minute since
I moved into higher ed, now working with
an online program and helping
students be successful
(09:16):
in their practical placements.
And Courtney? Good morning.
Theresa, thank you so much for having us.
It's an honor, like we all said, just
to be involved in this conversation
and be featured
on your podcast.
So my name is Courtney Moore. I am
the assistant director of the SLPD program at
(09:36):
Rocky Mountain University of Health Professions
located in Provo, Utah.
And similar to Irene and Diana,
have a bit of a medical focus in
the field of speech pathology with my clinical
experience.
I spent,
about seven years
across level one trauma,
(09:56):
acute care, outpatient, inpatient,
peds, adults,
but mostly
adult neurological disorder, dysphagia, cognitive linguistic,
evaluation and therapy. So it's been an exciting
career so far up until when when I
decided to go for the clinical doctorate. I
came to a point where I thought, this
(10:16):
is great. Love the pace. Love
being comfortable being uncomfortable,
especially in that, you know, that fast paced
acute care role.
But I was thinking about the future and
different ways of, you know, elevating my career,
opening options for how to progress, and,
and what my future career could look like
in this field.
(10:38):
And I started doing a little bit of
research as to okay. Well, if I were
to go back to school, what would that
look like? And for me,
I knew I wanted to
remain working full time, so I looked for,
some of the programs that allowed me to
do that. That's where I ended
up, deciding on going to Rocky Mountain.
(10:58):
Had a few colleagues that went there prior
to me, and they had some great views,
and and so we went went forth with
it.
Since graduating from the program,
it's I will say the SLPD proudly has
opened up quite a few different doors that
I had ever thought possible,
and from some of my cohort mates as
well.
Personally,
I entered into the SLPD thought process
(11:21):
wanting to
obtain more of a leadership role. I was
a lead SLP at the level on trauma
that I was at in West Palm Beach,
but I wanted to perhaps get into
director level,
admin type of roles,
or even delve into some of the academia.
And so this really opened up that door.
This made that possible for me.
(11:44):
And same thing with some of my colleagues
and some of the,
you know,
my esteemed colleagues here obviously have have really
transcended
some of their professional ceilings that they originally
set out by way of the SLPD.
So I feel really proud to have the
opportunity
to talk about it on the other side
and,
be in this grouping, you know, as we
(12:05):
talk about and and and really delve into
what whether the different,
programs
lie
and what can this SLPD offer. I there
was another
thought that was brought up
on bridging a gap, and I I totally
felt that because
sometimes when you get into
(12:25):
the mindset of, okay, this is a fast
paced environment. We have to be quick. We
have to be efficient.
At the same time,
you know, health care can sometimes
be an operational
operate as a business,
and so you have to be methodical.
And so when there's a strict when there's
a high volume
(12:45):
of patients to see,
you have to be well versed in the
type of practices you're offering to each patient
and being thoughtful and intentional in
individualizing,
these practices and these evaluations. So bridging that
gap between evidence based practice and practice based
evidence was a critical crossroad for me because
that's something that was a skill I developed
(13:08):
at RMU, at the SLPD across all of
our programs.
And that's something that I think that the
SLPD really offers is that in-depth
practical application of the evidence.
And in turn, it's made me a better
clinician,
a better professional, a better mentor, a better
supervisor.
And so I'm happy to be here and
and and chat about that.
(13:28):
Awesome. Thank you, Courtney. I've never heard it
put like that, so thank you. That was
actually very, very eloquent. So thank you. Yeah.
Erin, let's let's get into it. So, obviously,
now you all know why we are here
today.
But, yeah, where where do you wanna start?
Well, I think,
I think, you know, my colleagues here have
have already started the conversation really, really well.
I think all of them, were so completely
(13:52):
eloquent in saying, you
know, what the SLPD means to them and
why they pursued it. For me,
you know, I was much like all of
them. I wanted to I was working in,
the clinical space. I had been in,
acute
care for the majority of my career.
I was already at a supervisor's level at
(14:13):
my, community hospital,
but I really started to feel as though,
you know, I wanted to elevate myself.
I was the member of a,
community
of just really ambitious
and brilliant speech pathologists.
And so I thought, how am I going
to,
(14:33):
define myself? How am I going to separate
myself out if I want to reach the
next
rung of my career ladder?
And,
so again, you know, I was I was
looking at PhD programs.
I knew that I couldn't relocate because I
had a family and a son who was
very,
involved in his community and his sports
(14:55):
and,
so I was looking at that and then
I thought, oh, maybe I'll go for an
MBA, Maybe I'll go for a master's in
health care organization leadership.
And then one night, I was just, you
know, doom scrolling and was, you know, I
stumbled upon the Northwestern,
University
SLPD program curriculum,
(15:15):
and I just started, like, reading about it
more, and it had everything that I wanted.
It had research, which I definitely wanted to
do, and I had been engaging in that
at my hospital.
It had leadership courses, it had scholarship of
teaching and learning, it had, you know, the
educational, it had business,
it had,
(15:35):
quality improvement and process improvement classes. I mean,
it just had everything
and it had everything that I was interested
in, and I thought this would
be amazing. This would be an amazing program.
So,
you know, I'm
thrilled. I always tell everybody that
going for my SLPD
was the very best decision I ever made
(15:55):
in my professional career up to this point.
I just love it. I'm still good friends
with many of my cohort mates, and I
actually
have,
you know, used
a lot
of the information that I got from Northwestern,
not only during my
clinical day to day when I was still
at my hospital, but now that I've moved
(16:17):
into higher ed,
now that I've elevated my career, I've gone
into a completely different career path, not something
that I ever thought that I would do.
I really thought that I would be in
the acute care space forever
until I retired,
and so it just gave me a lot
of confidence to be able to do different
things in my career and to know that
(16:38):
I didn't have to just pigeonhole myself into
one thing.
And so after I finished the SLPD,
I did leave my position at the hospital.
I, opened my own private practice, which I
never ever ever was gonna do or wanted
to do, but I had the confidence to
do that because I knew how to do
market research. I knew how to write a
(16:59):
business plan.
I knew how to do all that stuff
now because of my degree.
And then about a year or so after
I opened my private practice, this position at
D'Youville University came up. We started a brand
new, graduate level program.
And so I got in on the ground
floor, and I, you know, became their director
of clinical education and established their entire
(17:21):
the entire clinical education
program for the for the,
for the speech pathology program. So it's just
been
an honor and just I look back at
it, and I'm like, man. And I don't
think I never would have pursued any of
that without this degree.
And I think as, you know, Courtney and
Irene and Deanna have all said is that
it's just given us not only the confidence
(17:43):
but the knowledge and the know how to
be able to do those things.
We all love research. I mean, we're still
engaging in that in our day to day
lives, in our current,
positions.
We want to do the research.
We wanna be engaged in it. We wanna
help shorten that, you know, seventeen year gap
(18:04):
that we know exists between research and then
clinical implementation
of, you know, the research into into, our
daily practice.
We wanna be involved in that, but we
also
want everyone to know what
this degree can do for you if you
wanna take a leadership position in your health
care organization
(18:25):
or in your school district,
if you wanna go into higher education, if
you wanna teach, if you want to whatever
you wanna do.
And so we want
to, you know, kind of define that and
answer those questions and say,
you know, this degree is really,
very, very valuable.
It's perfect if you really want to
(18:47):
still engage in the clinical space, which I
do, which we all do.
But then you also wanna do more. You
know, you wanna do more to get back
to the profession and help to elevate and
evolve the profession. So
Let me let me ask you, Erin. Would
you have been able to take that position
at D'Youville if had you not had the
SLPD?
(19:09):
I honestly don't know. I think that because
of my experience
and because of,
what I had and what I brought to
the position with my experience, I think that,
and the fact that I had, you know,
my doctorate,
I think that really gave me an advantage.
(19:30):
Do I know other directors of clinical education
who only have their master's degree? And I
shouldn't say only have their master's degree, but
have their master's degree and not an elevated
degree, advanced degree.
Yes. I do. Absolutely.
Do I think that,
you know,
starting a brand new program
in an area that is very well saturated
(19:52):
with well established,
well known prestigious speech pathology graduate programs,
do I think that I I would have
gotten the the position with with a master's
degree? I'm not quite sure.
But I think the SLPD
gave me that extra boost because I had
all of this additional experience.
Yeah.
(20:14):
Erin, can I jump in and kind of
piggyback off of what you said? I think
what I hear thanks.
I think what I hear everyone saying is
that and I certainly felt this to be
true for me.
The SLPD
made me feel like it gave me a
seat at the table. Right?
So I think you go for your masters
and you graduate
and you learn a lot. And we know
(20:36):
it's a very kind of compact time,
to kind of become a clinician as a
two year masters.
And then after that, you go on to
do your CF and you're working clinically.
And there is so much more that you
wanna learn. Right? And you're not exactly sure
how to do it.
Like Aaron said, you might be interested in
research. You might be interested in advocacy. You
(20:57):
might be interested in leadership or scholarship of
teaching and learning and all of that.
But sometimes it just feels like you don't
have an in because,
you have you know, you're working clinically all
the time,
and you don't really know the policies or
the procedures,
can use the example of research,
IRBs are intimidating,
(21:17):
and maybe
you don't know how to access them, you
don't know who to ask, right. And so
I think that
one of the beautiful benefits of pursuing the
SLPD
was that,
it made me it gave it equipped me
with the tools to access,
the right,
places and people, and it made me feel
(21:39):
like,
I could do them. Right? I could I
I knew how to
engage with the institutional review board. I knew
how to write a proposal.
I knew how to engage in advocacy. I
understood
how I wanted to engage in leadership and
(22:00):
and really what it meant to be a
leader. Right?
I felt that
that, advocacy was such an important part of
the profession that I didn't really know
how to,
engage with that prior.
Right?
And the beauty of it, and, Erin, I
(22:21):
had a very similar kind of thought process
to you, was that
I could do it from my home. Right?
I was I had two little kids at
home. I,
actually had my third child during the program,
and I felt that I couldn't relocate for
a graduate program.
And, but I was still very, very interested
(22:42):
in in pursuing higher education. And so when
I found the SLPD,
much like you, I thought this is truly
perfect. This hits on everything that I'm curious
about and have no idea how to start
doing. Right? Like, I felt very green.
And
and and it was
a lot of SLPD programs are hybrid. Right?
(23:03):
So they'll have, like,
a week or two on campus at during
at various points in the program.
Mine was, for the most part, fully remote,
and it was also the tail end of
COVID.
And so it was just
it it as the SLPD degree exists in
this post professional
space,
(23:23):
it really kind of,
I think, plugs a need for that
busy,
that busy speech pathologist who wears multiple hats
of
clinician
and,
you know,
parent or caregiver
or any of the other roles that we
play in our lives.
(23:45):
Irene, you,
and Aaron, you you both brought up
two points, two words that really stuck with
me, if I might add here,
confidence
and equity.
I think the SLPD
going through my program
still working,
(24:05):
like Irene was mentioning,
and 1000000%
respect for mamas. You guys are
incredible humans that able to complete your degree
and go through a program. Like, that is
I can't touch that.
Not even close.
So much respect to that.
But even just
(24:26):
feeling busy with work and still doing the
program,
having that flexibility
was critical for me to have
that application of what I'm learning in my
coursework
and correlating to my clinical practice.
But I say confidence because when you have
that
almost, like, a proven
(24:47):
track record in going through and completing your
research,
Irene, you mentioned the IRB,
running your study, especially in these settings.
And then you're I'm sure we've all experienced
a patient
that has said and again, no disrespect to
master's degree. That is that is an amazing
feat.
But
(25:08):
I'm sure we've all come across a patient
and as I said, oh, I wanna speak
to a doctor.
And now you can back that up and
say, well, actually, I've completed my advanced degree.
I've earned my doctorate, and I did my
research in what we're talking about right now.
And this is what the this is what
I'm guiding you with.
Suddenly, that confidence in owning the material,
(25:29):
in owning the research and knowing exactly
saying, hey. I've I've studied this research ad
nauseam, and I'm apply I've applied it
in clinical research, and I've seen what the
outcomes are, and this is what I'm guiding
you on. This is what I'm advising you
on.
I think that increases
the equity that the that the patients believe
(25:51):
in you, the equity that you have on
a rehab team where you have DPTs,
OTDs,
pharmDs,
then, of course, the physicians.
You know? Now suddenly, you've become, oh, well,
they've achieved
a higher
they've gone back and then reinvested their
career by completing this doctoral degree.
(26:13):
They must know they must have some equity
in their name, and then the confidence to
provide those from
Aaron
and
Irene
and
Deanna
is
like,
that that those were the driving from Erin
and Irene and Diana is like that that
(26:34):
those were the driving forces that I felt
really brought the value of doing this. And,
Erin, I think I believe you were probably
better sir suited
for your role at d u ville completing.
Was it absolutely necessary?
I'm not I would I wasn't necessarily in
the hiring committee, but I bet you were
a better candidate because of your experiences.
(26:54):
Well, I'm gonna springboard off of all of
you. And and, you know, I I I'm
I did mind. The the nice thing is
that, you know, it was it was
remote, but my kids were, two, four, and
six when I started my program.
And so it was quite the feat. I
know. It was it was it was it
was a challenge, but,
you know, and I'm just kind of listening
(27:15):
to Irene and Courtney and Erin, and I
just think there's I I I just resonate
with every single thing that you guys have
said. But I'm and and me being I
I I just was throughout the years, just
watching clinicians
and colleagues, like, kind of missing them, just
not always
I it's like, where's the evidence? We we
wanna go back to the evidence. What kind
of decisions are we making? What kind of
(27:36):
clinical reasoning
are we having? And I think one of
the things that I got from my doctorate
was how to not just do some research,
but how to consume it and how to
parse through it and how to understand it
so that then we can take that research
and make sure that we're
assessments that we could possibly do. And that's
(27:58):
it's one of the things that I teach
with my students. I'm like, you there's you
have to in my dysphasia class, you have
to follow the research. It is changing
so fast, but it is so intimidating.
When you pick up an article, you don't
know what to think. You you don't know
where to where to read and how to
how to pick things through. And that was
one of the big things that I felt,
(28:18):
on top of everything that that you guys
have already said, that helped me, that I
think would elevate
just me as a clinician
and me as as,
as as a professional.
Diane, I hear you saying that it helped
you become
a well versed consumer of literature.
Yes. Yeah.
(28:38):
I have a good experience.
Absolutely.
I would agree with that because, you know,
so through the Northwestern
program, I mean, I took, you know, at
least two
dedicated,
courses on research and research integration and and
analysis and all of that. And it did.
It taught me how to
(28:59):
read a research article differently, you know, not
from, like,
stem to stern, from the opening line to
the to the, you know, finishing paragraph.
I mean, it it taught me how to
really
read an article,
know how to analyze and synthesize the information,
and then be able to implement, you know,
directly into my,
(29:21):
you know, my patient's care
what I had read in that article.
I think the interesting thing, Teresa, too is,
you know, as we've all been working together
over the past couple of years and,
putting together these papers and, submissions and everything,
there's not a lot of literature out there
about what defines the SLPD
(29:43):
degree, but there is one
Hallmark article by Sylvan and Becker from 2022.
It was a qualitative study,
and so I think we all have it
and now in our professional library we all
have it on our you know, desktops to
readily access, but the interesting thing is is
that everything that Courtney, Irene, and Deanna, and
myself have have said
(30:03):
has been represented in this article as to
the reasons why people are pursuing the SLPD,
you know, the professional reasons, the personal reasons,
the fact that you can do it as
a hybrid program. You don't have to relocate.
You know, you want to elevate your career.
You want to get into leadership. You want
to get into higher ed, whatever.
It's all been represented in that article. And
(30:25):
so, it's a really fantastic article,
and,
I think that it's a great reference for
anyone who is thinking about,
do I want an advanced degree?
You know, do I want an SLPD? Do
I want a PhD? Do I want an
EDD?
And, again, we're not
we're not saying anything against any of those
(30:47):
other
degrees at all.
For all of us and all of our
SLPD colleagues,
this is a very common theme that we've
heard about why we all chose to pursue
it and the fact that we really wanted
to remain in that clinical
space. My best days, and I still say
that, my best days are the days when
(31:10):
I just get to focus on patient care,
you know, and I can go and see
my patients and help help them and, you
know,
solve a little piece of their puzzle,
care management puzzle and define a plan for
them and help them to move forward. So,
I think that that is, you know, really
something to consider if anyone is thinking about
(31:31):
getting an advanced degree and they're looking at
the SLPD versus a research doctorate,
you know, what is your end game? What
do you really wanna do? Do you wanna
remain clinical or at least some somewhat clinical,
or is your sole focus on
diving into, you know,
doing research.
Teresa, you're just at the end of your
(31:52):
PhD degree. You know? I mean, what made
you
choose to do PhD versus a different type
of advanced degree?
Yeah. Yeah. Good question. I mean, I I
know we've all had all these internal conversations
in our heads for at three in the
morning. You know? And, I
I think for me, just the PhD was
because I did wanna go more into research
(32:14):
and education.
Not not that I, you know, I always
wanna keep my foot in the door clinically,
but it just became, you know, abundantly more
clear that my path was going down towards,
you know, higher ed and and really diving
into research. So that's why the PhD program,
why I ended up doing it. That being
said, the caveat is, you know and and,
Courtney, I didn't didn't know you were at
(32:35):
RMU before this,
but was finding that
the PhD program that I could do online,
that's the only way I could was able
to do it. Same thing. I had a
one year old when I started my who
does that? Now that when you said that
out loud, Deanna, I was like, that's insane.
Yes. I had a two and a six
year old when I started my PhD program.
(32:56):
But, yeah, same thing. I I had to
be able to have the capabilities to just
do it online. So
yeah, but I I would love to hear,
you know, all of you guys, you know,
you know, did you look at the PhD?
Did you look at the EDD? And what
was the what was the the tipper for
going SLPD?
You know, I was very much
patient facing very much. That's just where my
(33:18):
interest was. That's where my passion was. Just
seeing that
grad having feeling that gratification
of patient improvement
instantly,
you know, of a fresh stroke patient and
patient with a stroke and
you seeing them just needing your care and
and really being so thankful for it, that's
where my passion was.
(33:38):
And
the thought of going back for
more
homework
and more schooling
and looking at all of the
the articles and the evidence
based practice and comparing and say, okay. Well,
what article
is most recent? And I honestly I would
(33:58):
feel lost feeling almost research illiterate at some
points because there was the numbers and the
trends and the values and what are the
outcomes and the the p values and the
and just so many different things that were
not
things you talked about or learned about on
a day to day basis at the hospital.
Didn't really matter at that at in that
(34:19):
sense.
And so
for me,
I knew that my passion was clinical.
I knew that I wanted something that,
you know, at the time,
you know, Rocky Mountain had, it was limited
residency, and now we have online only. So
we have a little bit of both. There's
even more flexibility,
as well as some of these other programs
(34:39):
that are represented here.
For me, it was important because it had
two facets of what I really wanted in
my careers, to maintain clinical,
elevate my professional
potential,
unlock some of the,
potential opportunities for opening a private practice. There's
courses on that or leadership roles. There's courses
on that
(35:00):
as I'm sure the other programs have as
well.
And so looking at the curriculum for me
versus the PhD just draw my drew my
attention more clearly,
more directly,
and the ability to have that flexibility and
still work full time and see my patients
and
and be at home for the most of
(35:20):
it, I I mean, was made the decision
very clear for me. And I,
you know, I I looked at a few
others, even some locally, but this just for
me, from what I want, and I think
that's important
for an applicant is to look at what
are your career objectives
before, and we do this in every advising
meeting.
I think it would we would all be
(35:40):
doing a disservice
to students who are on the journey of,
okay. I wanna advance my degree. I'm not
sure which direction I wanna go to. One
of the first questions we ask is, well,
where do you see yourself going in the
next five to ten years?
What are your interests? What is what are
you passionate about? And what is your professional
exposure right now?
From that, you can guide and shape and
(36:02):
mold the path
of a prospective student accordingly.
And we
advise students like, hey, if your goal is
I wanna be tenure track professor at a
level one at a at a at an
r at at a big r,
research institute, like, then perhaps you should consider,
you know, a PhD. But if you love
(36:24):
the clinical aspect, if you love
treating patients and having a leadership route
or
having that clinical
director role, you know, perhaps that might,
you know, relate more closely with the SLPD.
So that that was kinda my decision making
process.
Hey, Courtney. I just wanna I just wanna
(36:46):
jump in there because I think that question
is so interesting.
You know,
where do you see yourself in the next
five years? Because, again, and I can only
speak for myself,
but finishing the SLPD,
I mean, just
completely
I remember
thinking this and feeling this is that I
just I wanted
(37:07):
more. I wanted more from my career.
I wanted more from my professional path. I
knew I could do more. I knew that
I had fantastic experience from my, you know,
previous,
hospital job. I had leadership experience. I had
some research experience. I had presentation experience. I
had QI experience, but I wanted more.
(37:27):
And,
so I just think it's it's an interesting
question because if anybody had asked me that
question at the beginning of my
SLPD
journey, there's no way that I would have
said, oh, yeah. Afterwards, I'm gonna leave my
hospital job, and I'm gonna open my own
private practice, and I'm oh, I'm gonna go
full time into higher ed. Like, I I
never ever ever saw any of that stuff
(37:48):
for myself.
So I think, again, it's just,
this degree,
at least for myself, and I think, you
know, for the rest of my colleagues here,
has just fulfilled us
in a way that maybe
we didn't see coming.
That's cool. I love I love that, you
guys. This is awesome. Erin, that's a that's
(38:09):
a good thing to say. It has fulfilled
us. That is very true. I'll
I'll ditto that. I will too.
One thing that I wanna talk about and,
you know, hope my my friends and colleagues
here will jump in. So last week was
the,
annual capsid conference.
And so for Can you just share what
capsid is?
(38:30):
Yes. Can somebody help me with this acronym?
It's the council on
Academic programs and communication sciences disorders. Thank you
very much, Courtney. I appreciate it. But it's
it's the the annual national conference for,
higher educators for anyone who's in academia, both
from a speech pathology standpoint and from audiology
standpoint.
(38:51):
And it's an amazing conference because all of
the poster sessions and,
individual sessions,
are all geared towards and based towards those
of us who are in higher ed and
the, you know,
things the topics that are most relevant to
us and to our students at this point.
So
one of the things that,
(39:13):
the the four of us and then our
larger consortium
has been working on for the last two
years is, you know, really,
applying to and,
talking with
the,
CAA council, so the council on, academic accreditation
for speech pathology and audiology programs,
(39:35):
about this previous,
51
rule.
So if anyone had ever heard of this
is that,
there was this arbitrary rule that, you know,
higher education programs for our profession had to
have at least
51%
of their faculty that had a terminal degree,
so a PhD or an EDD.
(39:57):
And so when we all kinda got together
and started talking about
everything that we brought to our programs,
we instantly started talking about
where did this rule come from and and
why is this rule in place
and how how it's impacting
the our programs from being able to fulfill
that that that rule and that role
(40:19):
because
we know
that there is a,
decline
in the amount of individuals who are pursuing
a a degree
a doctorate's degree, a terminal doctorate's degree in
speech pathology. So all these programs are having
a really hard time
fulfilling their faculty requirements
and finding people to hire,
(40:40):
just to meet that rule.
And so we have been, you know, writing
to the CAA saying, you know, we'd like
you to reconsider this rule and and, you
know, consider the fact that you do have
SLPDs
who are working in these programs
who can who can fulfill that percentage rate.
You know?
So during the,
(41:03):
conference last week, the campsite conference,
they did announce that,
they're basically gonna be doing away with the
51 person. Amazing.
Amazing.
And so they didn't specifically say that SLPDs,
you know, counted towards, you know, the terminal
degree or anything like that, which is totally
fine,
(41:23):
for me. That's totally fine. I can't I
can't speak for the larger group.
But they are also saying that we want
programs to be able to hire, you know,
content experts
to teach these individual
courses.
So for anyone who has their master's degree,
who is a content expert in fluency or
(41:45):
in cognitive communication
and or in, you know, artic and phonology,
and wants to go in and be able
to teach that at the,
university level,
you know, it will no longer,
be counted against,
you know, this arbitrary 51%
rule for,
(42:06):
for that program,
which is really fantastic because then it just
opens up
this whole ability for,
these academic programs to be able to really
be bringing in,
somewhat of these content experts that might not
have their PhD or or EDD.
And so I think that that's
we're all very excited about that. We talked
(42:27):
about that during our meeting last week, when
we all hopped on together, and I just
think that's a, you know,
major progress.
Awesome.
I love that.
And, Erin, correct me if I'm wrong, but
for our, rehabilitation
colleagues,
occupational therapists and physical therapists,
their clinical doctorates are considered terminal degrees. Correct?
(42:50):
So for DPT,
Courtney, jump in with me on this one.
DPT, that is a terminal degree.
Now OTD has not been has it or
has it not been made mandatory at this
point?
It's not. I don't believe it's mandatory. I
believe the DPT is mandatory.
DPT is mandatory, but the OTD is not.
Correct.
(43:10):
Yeah. It's not.
And so, you know and I think that
also I think, you know, requiring a terminal
degree for our profession
is not the way the majority of speech
pathologists want to go.
You know, from
anecdotally from people that I've spoken with, and
then certainly from reading the Sylvan and Becker
(43:31):
article,
where they did a a a large, you
know, survey of speech pathologists,
is that most people are saying no. You
know, they don't want
the
it to be mandatory to go for some
sort of doctorate degree whatsoever
that, you know, people are afraid that it
would preclude then from, you know, people going
(43:52):
into our profession
as a whole. So,
but I do think that the fact that,
you
know, professionals and clinicians who have a master's
degree in SLPD
and or a PhD, an EDD, you know,
can now be recognized
in these higher education programs,
(44:14):
to be content experts and to be able
to to be hired,
you know, more freely,
I think is really gonna help.
I I agree with you. I think that
that's something that we've all spoken
about is,
you know, we don't necessarily compare our SLPD
to other degrees. We just we really enjoy
(44:35):
seeing it and think there's a tremendous
benefit to seeing it alongside
other degrees. Right? So it's not like an
SLPD versus PhD or EdD situation. It's there
is a tremendous value out of this degree
as a standalone degree,
And there is a lot of benefit in
collaborating with our PhD and EdD and master's
(44:57):
colleagues.
Right? All of them bring a lot to
the table. And it kind of makes me
think of this
pivotal paper that's not in the SLPD realm,
but actually in 1998,
Tourvelon and Marie Garcia
came out with a paper,
kind of encouraging folks to step away from
the term term cultural competence
(45:19):
and move towards cultural humility,
implying that, you know, when you use the
word competence, then it means that you can,
arrive at some kind of destination of knowledge
that you've learned all there is to know.
Right? Whereas the term cultural humility
sort of brings with it this understanding that
you're a lifelong learner, and you you there
is never enough time to learn everything you
(45:40):
need to know. Right? And that's kind of
what I think about when I think about
the SLPD
and my reason for pursuing the SLPD is,
like, hey. I'm a lifelong learner. I can
never know what it everything
about what I wanna know, but I wanna
keep learning. And this is a a tremendous
(46:01):
degree if you wanna keep learning,
accelerating your skills, and then parlaying those skills
into
the kind of different exciting parts of our
field that might previously have felt intimidating or
inaccessible.
Right. Irene, that that's the perfect example of
bridging the gap between
practice based evidence and evidence based practices collaborating
(46:22):
and coexisting in the space of furthering
the field in general.
So well said.
And I think, Irene, also, you know, that
brings back to the point, you know, your
earlier point of equity. Right? We're not we're
not saying that one degree is better than
the other. We're not saying that at all.
We want to be recognized as,
(46:44):
equal, you know, for what we can bring
to the table and what we can offer
to a program or to a school district
or to a health care organization or what
have you.
And so I think that that's what we've
we've all been saying. We all have our
own individual strengths as degrees.
And so we just we want that to
be recognized.
(47:05):
Yeah. This has been awesome conversation, you guys.
Thank you. I think you all brought up
so many points that I had no idea
were even included in the SLPD programs. Like,
I had no idea that a lot of
the other training you guys got, you know,
business, private practice, things like that, I think
is is really, really cool. I had no
idea about that. So thank you for sharing
and especially all of you being from
completely different programs on opposite sides of the
(47:28):
country. So thank you all, Erin, for putting
literally, you guys are all at different different
points of the country. So thank you for
bringing this whole group together. But, yeah, I
think this is an awesome conversation. I mean,
you know, those of us that are
have taken on leadership skills and things like
that within speech pathology
realize that there is much more of a
just a need for more education in this.
(47:48):
And and, also, you know, that's really great
to hear that they got rid of that
51%
rule as well because
we do have so many smart friends that
should be teaching,
that that can't because they just, you know,
don't wanna go on for PhD or have
no desire to go do it. So well,
thank you so much all of you guys
for joining me. It was so nice getting
to chat with you this morning.
(48:09):
Thanks, Teresa. Thanks, Teresa. You have a great
day. Thanks for connecting. Time. It's been a
pleasure.
And that's a wrap for this episode.
As always, thank you so much for listening.
And if you'd like to download the show
notes from this episode, please visit swallowyourpridepodcast.com.
There, you can also sign up for our
email list so that you'll never miss another
(48:30):
episode.
If you do like what you hear, then
please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes,
or share it on social media with your
friends and colleagues because that is what keeps
these episodes coming.
If you'd like to be a guest, share
feedback, or request a topic to be discussed
on the show, please email podcast@TeresaRichard.com.
(48:50):
Thank you so much for listening, and we'll
catch you next week.
On this episode of the Sawyer Pride podcast,
we have four incredible guests on the show
today. And instead of reading you all four
full long bios, I'm gonna just give you
a quick version. I don't mean to downplay
any of the amazing credentials or success that
they have just so we can be timely
with this. So first up, we have doctor
Erin McCarthy. She's a board certified specialist in
(00:20):
swallowing disorders and the director of clinical education
at D'Youville University's graduate SLP program
and the owner of Rochester Feeding and Swallowing
Therapy in Rochester, New York. Her clinical work
spans pediatric dysphagia, adult neurogenic dysphagia, post activation
dysphagia, and the role of oral care in
preventing nonventilator
hospital acquired pneumonia.
(00:41):
Joining her is doctor Courtney Moore. He is
assistant program director at Rocky Mountain University of
Health Professions.
Courtney brings over fifteen years of clinical experience
and his doctoral capstone focused on dysphagia care
for acute stroke patients.
Next, we have doctor Deanna Nowak, a certified
SLP and certified brain injury specialist with more
than twenty five years in neurorehabilitation.
(01:01):
She's an assistant clinical professor and assistant clinical
director for the Baylor online program with deep
experience across inpatient rehab, acute care, and long
term care focused on dysphagia, motor speech, and
adult neurocognitive disorders. Her dissertation focused on evidence
based practice in the medical setting.
And last but not least, we have doctor
Irene Bretman. She's an acute she's an inpatient,
(01:22):
acute, and outpatient medical SLP in Boston and
an instructor in the MS and SLPD programs
at the MGH Institute of Health Professions.
Her work centers on dysphagia and aphasia in
the adult neurogenic population,
telemedicine and cultural humility in medical SLP.
Alright. So let's get into it.
(01:52):
Welcome to the Swallow Your Pride podcast. I'm
your host, Teresa Richard. I'm a board certified
specialist in swallowing and swallowing disorders,
a mobile thieves business owner and founder of
the Medis SLP collective.
This podcast is all about delivering the latest
evidence based practice to medical SLPs everywhere.
Whether you're a new clinician seeking tangible tools
for treatment or a seasoned vet stuck in
(02:13):
a rut, my goal is to help ditch
the old school ways of the past that
no longer serve you or your patients, to
reinvigorate your passion for our field, to broaden
your knowledge about our scope of practice, and
to inspire you to practice at the top
of your license. So if you're listening, I
encourage you to swallow your pride, be open
and willing to learn because let's face it,
your patients deserve that kind of care. With
(02:34):
that, let's dive right in. Just a quick
disclaimer that all statements and opinions expressed in
this episode do not reflect on the organizations
associated with the speakers and are their own
opinions solely.
Alright. Good morning, everybody. Thank you so much
for joining me. I'm I'm so, so, so
excited to record this episode with all of
you.
Erin, I'm gonna let you go first. I've
(02:56):
gosh. I've known Erin for many, many, many
years, and it's so fun to just be
at this point in our career where all
of your smart friends are doing really cool
stuff and actually saying and doing all of
the cool stuff they've said they wanted to
do over the years. So, Erin, take it
away. Who are you? Why are we here?
Well, hi. Good morning, Theresa. Thank you so
much for having us all on today.
My name is Doctor. Erin McCarthy and I
(03:17):
am the director of clinical education for D'Youville
University's,
speech pathology program
and the reason that we're joining all of
you today
is to talk about,
the SLPD,
the degree, which is the clinical doctorate for
speech pathology.
And I am joined today by, as you
(03:37):
said, some of my brilliant colleagues that I've
gotten to meet because of getting my SLPD
a few years ago. So, Doctor. Irene Bretman,
who is at, Mass Gen,
Doctor. Deanna Nowak, who is, at Baylor University,
and then Doctor. Courtney Moore, who is at,
Rocky Mountain University of Health Professions. And
(03:57):
so
we all,
we met
one another with over the course of the
past two years
as we joined a larger consortium
of clinicians
who,
had gotten their SLPD degree
SLPD degrees from various universities across the country.
(04:18):
And, we all
kind of came together a couple years ago
at the national,
CAPCID conference
and, we did a breakout networking group one
evening and just realized
how many of us were so passionate about
the profession,
so passionate about the degree,
so passionate about what we did and how
(04:40):
this degree really
elevated our,
professional
journeys that we were all on. So
over the course of the past two years,
we've been getting together
oh gosh, I don't know if it's monthly
or if it's quarterly, I don't remember,
but we've been getting together, we've been,
meeting regularly, we've been talking about issues in
(05:00):
the profession,
we've all,
joined together and written submissions to the CAPS
conference
to, ASHA. We just actually submitted again for,
this year to present.
Courtney presented,
last year,
on the SLPD degree. So,
I'm gonna let him talk a little bit
about that today.
(05:21):
And,
we just really wanted to come on and
answer some questions about it, talk about our,
personal reasons for pursuing SLPD,
and then give all of your listeners just
a little bit of insight into what the
degree actually is.
Because I know that I said that once
you know, I'm I'm on Facebook. I'm on
(05:43):
Instagram.
You know, I'm in all of these speech
pathology,
you know, listservs and chat rooms and everything.
And I would say probably once a month,
there's at least one person that comes on
and says, I wanna pursue a higher degree.
I'm thinking of doing SLPD
versus PhD. What's the difference?
And each one of us on here today
(06:05):
has all gotten on and, you know, tried
to enlighten and educate people on what the
SLPD degree is. So,
we thought, you know, why not come on
your podcast and do that? So with that,
I'm gonna turn it over to my colleagues.
Irene, if you wanna go next.
Sure. Thank you, Erin.
(06:25):
I am very excited to be here today.
So as Erin mentioned, I'm out in Boston.
I'm affiliated with Mass General primarily.
I'm an inpatient and outpatient clinical speech language
pathologist,
work in the adult medical space,
with the neuro population
and had been working clinically
(06:47):
for,
eight years when I kinda got that itch
of, you know, I wanna
wanna go back. I wanna learn more. I
wanna do more.
I, you know, wasn't really sure which path
to take. Should I do PhD? Should I
do an EDD?
And then I learned about the SLPD,
and I kind of,
you know, let it marinate
(07:08):
for a while
and then ultimately
decided to go back and do my SLPD
at the MGH Institute of Health Professions in
Boston,
which is where I got my master's.
And it was just, you know, it was
a it was a tremendous experience. And I
think in in many ways, it
elevated
(07:29):
my clinical practice.
And since then, you know, one of the
reasons that I I went for it was
because I
was very curious about kind of
bridging the clinical and the academic worlds and
had always been interested in research, but didn't
really know how to start. I wasn't really
sure what to do. And so this this
(07:51):
degree just felt very right for me for
a number of reasons, which I'm sure we'll
kinda go into. Decided on the SLPD, and
here I am.
Deanna?
I'm Deanna Nowak, and it is such an
honor to be here, and I'm super excited
to talk about this topic.
You know, my journey started adult medical, all
the different acute care, inpatient rehab, outpatient.
(08:14):
I just I fell in love with the
the medical side of it.
I'm a self proclaimed nerd, so I love
to learn.
But throughout that time, I really developed a
passion
for working with the graduate students that I
had, and I loved watching
their minds come in at the beginning of
the trimester and then learn so much.
(08:35):
So it just developed this passion for evidence
based practice and are we using teaching them
to use evidence based practice, think teaching them
to use critical thinking.
And so as time went on, after a
little more than twenty years, I was like,
okay, what's the next step? You know, what's
the next step? How can I invest myself
in these students' lives and and make a
(08:55):
bigger impact? And so I was like, well,
I love higher ed.
And I was like, well, a friend of
mine introduced me to the SLPD program. So
I did my SLPD at NOVA,
Southeastern University and have loved every minute since
I moved into higher ed, now working with
an online program and helping
students be successful
(09:16):
in their practical placements.
And Courtney? Good morning.
Theresa, thank you so much for having us.
It's an honor, like we all said, just
to be involved in this conversation
and be featured
on your podcast.
So my name is Courtney Moore. I am
the assistant director of the SLPD program at
(09:36):
Rocky Mountain University of Health Professions
located in Provo, Utah.
And similar to Irene and Diana,
have a bit of a medical focus in
the field of speech pathology with my clinical
experience.
I spent,
about seven years
across level one trauma,
(09:56):
acute care, outpatient, inpatient,
peds, adults,
but mostly
adult neurological disorder, dysphagia, cognitive linguistic,
evaluation and therapy. So it's been an exciting
career so far up until when when I
decided to go for the clinical doctorate. I
came to a point where I thought, this
(10:16):
is great. Love the pace. Love
being comfortable being uncomfortable,
especially in that, you know, that fast paced
acute care role.
But I was thinking about the future and
different ways of, you know, elevating my career,
opening options for how to progress, and,
and what my future career could look like
in this field.
(10:38):
And I started doing a little bit of
research as to okay. Well, if I were
to go back to school, what would that
look like? And for me,
I knew I wanted to
remain working full time, so I looked for,
some of the programs that allowed me to
do that. That's where I ended
up, deciding on going to Rocky Mountain.
(10:58):
Had a few colleagues that went there prior
to me, and they had some great views,
and and so we went went forth with
it.
Since graduating from the program,
it's I will say the SLPD proudly has
opened up quite a few different doors that
I had ever thought possible,
and from some of my cohort mates as
well.
Personally,
I entered into the SLPD thought process
(11:21):
wanting to
obtain more of a leadership role. I was
a lead SLP at the level on trauma
that I was at in West Palm Beach,
but I wanted to perhaps get into
director level,
admin type of roles,
or even delve into some of the academia.
And so this really opened up that door.
This made that possible for me.
(11:44):
And same thing with some of my colleagues
and some of the,
you know,
my esteemed colleagues here obviously have have really
transcended
some of their professional ceilings that they originally
set out by way of the SLPD.
So I feel really proud to have the
opportunity
to talk about it on the other side
and,
be in this grouping, you know, as we
(12:05):
talk about and and and really delve into
what whether the different,
programs
lie
and what can this SLPD offer. I there
was another
thought that was brought up
on bridging a gap, and I I totally
felt that because
sometimes when you get into
(12:25):
the mindset of, okay, this is a fast
paced environment. We have to be quick. We
have to be efficient.
At the same time,
you know, health care can sometimes
be an operational
operate as a business,
and so you have to be methodical.
And so when there's a strict when there's
a high volume
(12:45):
of patients to see,
you have to be well versed in the
type of practices you're offering to each patient
and being thoughtful and intentional in
individualizing,
these practices and these evaluations. So bridging that
gap between evidence based practice and practice based
evidence was a critical crossroad for me because
that's something that was a skill I developed
(13:08):
at RMU, at the SLPD across all of
our programs.
And that's something that I think that the
SLPD really offers is that in-depth
practical application of the evidence.
And in turn, it's made me a better
clinician,
a better professional, a better mentor, a better
supervisor.
And so I'm happy to be here and
and and chat about that.
(13:28):
Awesome. Thank you, Courtney. I've never heard it
put like that, so thank you. That was
actually very, very eloquent. So thank you. Yeah.
Erin, let's let's get into it. So, obviously,
now you all know why we are here
today.
But, yeah, where where do you wanna start?
Well, I think,
I think, you know, my colleagues here have
have already started the conversation really, really well.
I think all of them, were so completely
(13:52):
eloquent in saying, you
know, what the SLPD means to them and
why they pursued it. For me,
you know, I was much like all of
them. I wanted to I was working in,
the clinical space. I had been in,
acute
care for the majority of my career.
I was already at a supervisor's level at
(14:13):
my, community hospital,
but I really started to feel as though,
you know, I wanted to elevate myself.
I was the member of a,
community
of just really ambitious
and brilliant speech pathologists.
And so I thought, how am I going
to,
(14:33):
define myself? How am I going to separate
myself out if I want to reach the
next
rung of my career ladder?
And,
so again, you know, I was I was
looking at PhD programs.
I knew that I couldn't relocate because I
had a family and a son who was
very,
involved in his community and his sports
(14:55):
and,
so I was looking at that and then
I thought, oh, maybe I'll go for an
MBA, Maybe I'll go for a master's in
health care organization leadership.
And then one night, I was just, you
know, doom scrolling and was, you know, I
stumbled upon the Northwestern,
University
SLPD program curriculum,
(15:15):
and I just started, like, reading about it
more, and it had everything that I wanted.
It had research, which I definitely wanted to
do, and I had been engaging in that
at my hospital.
It had leadership courses, it had scholarship of
teaching and learning, it had, you know, the
educational, it had business,
it had,
(15:35):
quality improvement and process improvement classes. I mean,
it just had everything
and it had everything that I was interested
in, and I thought this would
be amazing. This would be an amazing program.
So,
you know, I'm
thrilled. I always tell everybody that
going for my SLPD
was the very best decision I ever made
(15:55):
in my professional career up to this point.
I just love it. I'm still good friends
with many of my cohort mates, and I
actually
have,
you know, used
a lot
of the information that I got from Northwestern,
not only during my
clinical day to day when I was still
at my hospital, but now that I've moved
(16:17):
into higher ed,
now that I've elevated my career, I've gone
into a completely different career path, not something
that I ever thought that I would do.
I really thought that I would be in
the acute care space forever
until I retired,
and so it just gave me a lot
of confidence to be able to do different
things in my career and to know that
(16:38):
I didn't have to just pigeonhole myself into
one thing.
And so after I finished the SLPD,
I did leave my position at the hospital.
I, opened my own private practice, which I
never ever ever was gonna do or wanted
to do, but I had the confidence to
do that because I knew how to do
market research. I knew how to write a
(16:59):
business plan.
I knew how to do all that stuff
now because of my degree.
And then about a year or so after
I opened my private practice, this position at
D'Youville University came up. We started a brand
new, graduate level program.
And so I got in on the ground
floor, and I, you know, became their director
of clinical education and established their entire
(17:21):
the entire clinical education
program for the for the,
for the speech pathology program. So it's just
been
an honor and just I look back at
it, and I'm like, man. And I don't
think I never would have pursued any of
that without this degree.
And I think as, you know, Courtney and
Irene and Deanna have all said is that
it's just given us not only the confidence
(17:43):
but the knowledge and the know how to
be able to do those things.
We all love research. I mean, we're still
engaging in that in our day to day
lives, in our current,
positions.
We want to do the research.
We wanna be engaged in it. We wanna
help shorten that, you know, seventeen year gap
(18:04):
that we know exists between research and then
clinical implementation
of, you know, the research into into, our
daily practice.
We wanna be involved in that, but we
also
want everyone to know what
this degree can do for you if you
wanna take a leadership position in your health
care organization
(18:25):
or in your school district,
if you wanna go into higher education, if
you wanna teach, if you want to whatever
you wanna do.
And so we want
to, you know, kind of define that and
answer those questions and say,
you know, this degree is really,
very, very valuable.
It's perfect if you really want to
(18:47):
still engage in the clinical space, which I
do, which we all do.
But then you also wanna do more. You
know, you wanna do more to get back
to the profession and help to elevate and
evolve the profession. So
Let me let me ask you, Erin. Would
you have been able to take that position
at D'Youville if had you not had the
SLPD?
(19:09):
I honestly don't know. I think that because
of my experience
and because of,
what I had and what I brought to
the position with my experience, I think that,
and the fact that I had, you know,
my doctorate,
I think that really gave me an advantage.
(19:30):
Do I know other directors of clinical education
who only have their master's degree? And I
shouldn't say only have their master's degree, but
have their master's degree and not an elevated
degree, advanced degree.
Yes. I do. Absolutely.
Do I think that,
you know,
starting a brand new program
in an area that is very well saturated
(19:52):
with well established,
well known prestigious speech pathology graduate programs,
do I think that I I would have
gotten the the position with with a master's
degree? I'm not quite sure.
But I think the SLPD
gave me that extra boost because I had
all of this additional experience.
Yeah.
(20:14):
Erin, can I jump in and kind of
piggyback off of what you said? I think
what I hear thanks.
I think what I hear everyone saying is
that and I certainly felt this to be
true for me.
The SLPD
made me feel like it gave me a
seat at the table. Right?
So I think you go for your masters
and you graduate
and you learn a lot. And we know
(20:36):
it's a very kind of compact time,
to kind of become a clinician as a
two year masters.
And then after that, you go on to
do your CF and you're working clinically.
And there is so much more that you
wanna learn. Right? And you're not exactly sure
how to do it.
Like Aaron said, you might be interested in
research. You might be interested in advocacy. You
(20:57):
might be interested in leadership or scholarship of
teaching and learning and all of that.
But sometimes it just feels like you don't
have an in because,
you have you know, you're working clinically all
the time,
and you don't really know the policies or
the procedures,
can use the example of research,
IRBs are intimidating,
(21:17):
and maybe
you don't know how to access them, you
don't know who to ask, right. And so
I think that
one of the beautiful benefits of pursuing the
SLPD
was that,
it made me it gave it equipped me
with the tools to access,
the right,
places and people, and it made me feel
(21:39):
like,
I could do them. Right? I could I
I knew how to
engage with the institutional review board. I knew
how to write a proposal.
I knew how to engage in advocacy. I
understood
how I wanted to engage in leadership and
(22:00):
and really what it meant to be a
leader. Right?
I felt that
that, advocacy was such an important part of
the profession that I didn't really know
how to,
engage with that prior.
Right?
And the beauty of it, and, Erin, I
(22:21):
had a very similar kind of thought process
to you, was that
I could do it from my home. Right?
I was I had two little kids at
home. I,
actually had my third child during the program,
and I felt that I couldn't relocate for
a graduate program.
And, but I was still very, very interested
(22:42):
in in pursuing higher education. And so when
I found the SLPD,
much like you, I thought this is truly
perfect. This hits on everything that I'm curious
about and have no idea how to start
doing. Right? Like, I felt very green.
And
and and it was
a lot of SLPD programs are hybrid. Right?
(23:03):
So they'll have, like,
a week or two on campus at during
at various points in the program.
Mine was, for the most part, fully remote,
and it was also the tail end of
COVID.
And so it was just
it it as the SLPD degree exists in
this post professional
space,
(23:23):
it really kind of,
I think, plugs a need for that
busy,
that busy speech pathologist who wears multiple hats
of
clinician
and,
you know,
parent or caregiver
or any of the other roles that we
play in our lives.
(23:45):
Irene, you,
and Aaron, you you both brought up
two points, two words that really stuck with
me, if I might add here,
confidence
and equity.
I think the SLPD
going through my program
still working,
(24:05):
like Irene was mentioning,
and 1000000%
respect for mamas. You guys are
incredible humans that able to complete your degree
and go through a program. Like, that is
I can't touch that.
Not even close.
So much respect to that.
But even just
(24:26):
feeling busy with work and still doing the
program,
having that flexibility
was critical for me to have
that application of what I'm learning in my
coursework
and correlating to my clinical practice.
But I say confidence because when you have
that
almost, like, a proven
(24:47):
track record in going through and completing your
research,
Irene, you mentioned the IRB,
running your study, especially in these settings.
And then you're I'm sure we've all experienced
a patient
that has said and again, no disrespect to
master's degree. That is that is an amazing
feat.
But
(25:08):
I'm sure we've all come across a patient
and as I said, oh, I wanna speak
to a doctor.
And now you can back that up and
say, well, actually, I've completed my advanced degree.
I've earned my doctorate, and I did my
research in what we're talking about right now.
And this is what the this is what
I'm guiding you with.
Suddenly, that confidence in owning the material,
(25:29):
in owning the research and knowing exactly
saying, hey. I've I've studied this research ad
nauseam, and I'm apply I've applied it
in clinical research, and I've seen what the
outcomes are, and this is what I'm guiding
you on. This is what I'm advising you
on.
I think that increases
the equity that the that the patients believe
(25:51):
in you, the equity that you have on
a rehab team where you have DPTs,
OTDs,
pharmDs,
then, of course, the physicians.
You know? Now suddenly, you've become, oh, well,
they've achieved
a higher
they've gone back and then reinvested their
career by completing this doctoral degree.
(26:13):
They must know they must have some equity
in their name, and then the confidence to
provide those from
Aaron
and
Irene
and
Deanna
is
like,
that that those were the driving from Erin
and Irene and Diana is like that that
(26:34):
those were the driving forces that I felt
really brought the value of doing this. And,
Erin, I think I believe you were probably
better sir suited
for your role at d u ville completing.
Was it absolutely necessary?
I'm not I would I wasn't necessarily in
the hiring committee, but I bet you were
a better candidate because of your experiences.
(26:54):
Well, I'm gonna springboard off of all of
you. And and, you know, I I I'm
I did mind. The the nice thing is
that, you know, it was it was
remote, but my kids were, two, four, and
six when I started my program.
And so it was quite the feat. I
know. It was it was it was it
was a challenge, but,
you know, and I'm just kind of listening
(27:15):
to Irene and Courtney and Erin, and I
just think there's I I I just resonate
with every single thing that you guys have
said. But I'm and and me being I
I I just was throughout the years, just
watching clinicians
and colleagues, like, kind of missing them, just
not always
I it's like, where's the evidence? We we
wanna go back to the evidence. What kind
of decisions are we making? What kind of
(27:36):
clinical reasoning
are we having? And I think one of
the things that I got from my doctorate
was how to not just do some research,
but how to consume it and how to
parse through it and how to understand it
so that then we can take that research
and make sure that we're
assessments that we could possibly do. And that's
(27:58):
it's one of the things that I teach
with my students. I'm like, you there's you
have to in my dysphasia class, you have
to follow the research. It is changing
so fast, but it is so intimidating.
When you pick up an article, you don't
know what to think. You you don't know
where to where to read and how to
how to pick things through. And that was
one of the big things that I felt,
(28:18):
on top of everything that that you guys
have already said, that helped me, that I
think would elevate
just me as a clinician
and me as as,
as as a professional.
Diane, I hear you saying that it helped
you become
a well versed consumer of literature.
Yes. Yeah.
(28:38):
I have a good experience.
Absolutely.
I would agree with that because, you know,
so through the Northwestern
program, I mean, I took, you know, at
least two
dedicated,
courses on research and research integration and and
analysis and all of that. And it did.
It taught me how to
(28:59):
read a research article differently, you know, not
from, like,
stem to stern, from the opening line to
the to the, you know, finishing paragraph.
I mean, it it taught me how to
really
read an article,
know how to analyze and synthesize the information,
and then be able to implement, you know,
directly into my,
(29:21):
you know, my patient's care
what I had read in that article.
I think the interesting thing, Teresa, too is,
you know, as we've all been working together
over the past couple of years and,
putting together these papers and, submissions and everything,
there's not a lot of literature out there
about what defines the SLPD
(29:43):
degree, but there is one
Hallmark article by Sylvan and Becker from 2022.
It was a qualitative study,
and so I think we all have it
and now in our professional library we all
have it on our you know, desktops to
readily access, but the interesting thing is is
that everything that Courtney, Irene, and Deanna, and
myself have have said
(30:03):
has been represented in this article as to
the reasons why people are pursuing the SLPD,
you know, the professional reasons, the personal reasons,
the fact that you can do it as
a hybrid program. You don't have to relocate.
You know, you want to elevate your career.
You want to get into leadership. You want
to get into higher ed, whatever.
It's all been represented in that article. And
(30:25):
so, it's a really fantastic article,
and,
I think that it's a great reference for
anyone who is thinking about,
do I want an advanced degree?
You know, do I want an SLPD? Do
I want a PhD? Do I want an
EDD?
And, again, we're not
we're not saying anything against any of those
(30:47):
other
degrees at all.
For all of us and all of our
SLPD colleagues,
this is a very common theme that we've
heard about why we all chose to pursue
it and the fact that we really wanted
to remain in that clinical
space. My best days, and I still say
that, my best days are the days when
(31:10):
I just get to focus on patient care,
you know, and I can go and see
my patients and help help them and, you
know,
solve a little piece of their puzzle,
care management puzzle and define a plan for
them and help them to move forward. So,
I think that that is, you know, really
something to consider if anyone is thinking about
(31:31):
getting an advanced degree and they're looking at
the SLPD versus a research doctorate,
you know, what is your end game? What
do you really wanna do? Do you wanna
remain clinical or at least some somewhat clinical,
or is your sole focus on
diving into, you know,
doing research.
Teresa, you're just at the end of your
(31:52):
PhD degree. You know? I mean, what made
you
choose to do PhD versus a different type
of advanced degree?
Yeah. Yeah. Good question. I mean, I I
know we've all had all these internal conversations
in our heads for at three in the
morning. You know? And, I
I think for me, just the PhD was
because I did wanna go more into research
(32:14):
and education.
Not not that I, you know, I always
wanna keep my foot in the door clinically,
but it just became, you know, abundantly more
clear that my path was going down towards,
you know, higher ed and and really diving
into research. So that's why the PhD program,
why I ended up doing it. That being
said, the caveat is, you know and and,
Courtney, I didn't didn't know you were at
(32:35):
RMU before this,
but was finding that
the PhD program that I could do online,
that's the only way I could was able
to do it. Same thing. I had a
one year old when I started my who
does that? Now that when you said that
out loud, Deanna, I was like, that's insane.
Yes. I had a two and a six
year old when I started my PhD program.
(32:56):
But, yeah, same thing. I I had to
be able to have the capabilities to just
do it online. So
yeah, but I I would love to hear,
you know, all of you guys, you know,
you know, did you look at the PhD?
Did you look at the EDD? And what
was the what was the the tipper for
going SLPD?
You know, I was very much
patient facing very much. That's just where my
(33:18):
interest was. That's where my passion was. Just
seeing that
grad having feeling that gratification
of patient improvement
instantly,
you know, of a fresh stroke patient and
patient with a stroke and
you seeing them just needing your care and
and really being so thankful for it, that's
where my passion was.
(33:38):
And
the thought of going back for
more
homework
and more schooling
and looking at all of the
the articles and the evidence
based practice and comparing and say, okay. Well,
what article
is most recent? And I honestly I would
(33:58):
feel lost feeling almost research illiterate at some
points because there was the numbers and the
trends and the values and what are the
outcomes and the the p values and the
and just so many different things that were
not
things you talked about or learned about on
a day to day basis at the hospital.
Didn't really matter at that at in that
(34:19):
sense.
And so
for me,
I knew that my passion was clinical.
I knew that I wanted something that,
you know, at the time,
you know, Rocky Mountain had, it was limited
residency, and now we have online only. So
we have a little bit of both. There's
even more flexibility,
as well as some of these other programs
(34:39):
that are represented here.
For me, it was important because it had
two facets of what I really wanted in
my careers, to maintain clinical,
elevate my professional
potential,
unlock some of the,
potential opportunities for opening a private practice. There's
courses on that or leadership roles. There's courses
on that
(35:00):
as I'm sure the other programs have as
well.
And so looking at the curriculum for me
versus the PhD just draw my drew my
attention more clearly,
more directly,
and the ability to have that flexibility and
still work full time and see my patients
and
and be at home for the most of
(35:20):
it, I I mean, was made the decision
very clear for me. And I,
you know, I I looked at a few
others, even some locally, but this just for
me, from what I want, and I think
that's important
for an applicant is to look at what
are your career objectives
before, and we do this in every advising
meeting.
I think it would we would all be
(35:40):
doing a disservice
to students who are on the journey of,
okay. I wanna advance my degree. I'm not
sure which direction I wanna go to. One
of the first questions we ask is, well,
where do you see yourself going in the
next five to ten years?
What are your interests? What is what are
you passionate about? And what is your professional
exposure right now?
From that, you can guide and shape and
(36:02):
mold the path
of a prospective student accordingly.
And we
advise students like, hey, if your goal is
I wanna be tenure track professor at a
level one at a at a at an
r at at a big r,
research institute, like, then perhaps you should consider,
you know, a PhD. But if you love
(36:24):
the clinical aspect, if you love
treating patients and having a leadership route
or
having that clinical
director role, you know, perhaps that might,
you know, relate more closely with the SLPD.
So that that was kinda my decision making
process.
Hey, Courtney. I just wanna I just wanna
(36:46):
jump in there because I think that question
is so interesting.
You know,
where do you see yourself in the next
five years? Because, again, and I can only
speak for myself,
but finishing the SLPD,
I mean, just
completely
I remember
thinking this and feeling this is that I
just I wanted
(37:07):
more. I wanted more from my career.
I wanted more from my professional path. I
knew I could do more. I knew that
I had fantastic experience from my, you know,
previous,
hospital job. I had leadership experience. I had
some research experience. I had presentation experience. I
had QI experience, but I wanted more.
(37:27):
And,
so I just think it's it's an interesting
question because if anybody had asked me that
question at the beginning of my
SLPD
journey, there's no way that I would have
said, oh, yeah. Afterwards, I'm gonna leave my
hospital job, and I'm gonna open my own
private practice, and I'm oh, I'm gonna go
full time into higher ed. Like, I I
never ever ever saw any of that stuff
(37:48):
for myself.
So I think, again, it's just,
this degree,
at least for myself, and I think, you
know, for the rest of my colleagues here,
has just fulfilled us
in a way that maybe
we didn't see coming.
That's cool. I love I love that, you
guys. This is awesome. Erin, that's a that's
(38:09):
a good thing to say. It has fulfilled
us. That is very true. I'll
I'll ditto that. I will too.
One thing that I wanna talk about and,
you know, hope my my friends and colleagues
here will jump in. So last week was
the,
annual capsid conference.
And so for Can you just share what
capsid is?
(38:30):
Yes. Can somebody help me with this acronym?
It's the council on
Academic programs and communication sciences disorders. Thank you
very much, Courtney. I appreciate it. But it's
it's the the annual national conference for,
higher educators for anyone who's in academia, both
from a speech pathology standpoint and from audiology
standpoint.
(38:51):
And it's an amazing conference because all of
the poster sessions and,
individual sessions,
are all geared towards and based towards those
of us who are in higher ed and
the, you know,
things the topics that are most relevant to
us and to our students at this point.
So
one of the things that,
(39:13):
the the four of us and then our
larger consortium
has been working on for the last two
years is, you know, really,
applying to and,
talking with
the,
CAA council, so the council on, academic accreditation
for speech pathology and audiology programs,
(39:35):
about this previous,
51
rule.
So if anyone had ever heard of this
is that,
there was this arbitrary rule that, you know,
higher education programs for our profession had to
have at least
51%
of their faculty that had a terminal degree,
so a PhD or an EDD.
(39:57):
And so when we all kinda got together
and started talking about
everything that we brought to our programs,
we instantly started talking about
where did this rule come from and and
why is this rule in place
and how how it's impacting
the our programs from being able to fulfill
that that that rule and that role
(40:19):
because
we know
that there is a,
decline
in the amount of individuals who are pursuing
a a degree
a doctorate's degree, a terminal doctorate's degree in
speech pathology. So all these programs are having
a really hard time
fulfilling their faculty requirements
and finding people to hire,
(40:40):
just to meet that rule.
And so we have been, you know, writing
to the CAA saying, you know, we'd like
you to reconsider this rule and and, you
know, consider the fact that you do have
SLPDs
who are working in these programs
who can who can fulfill that percentage rate.
You know?
So during the,
(41:03):
conference last week, the campsite conference,
they did announce that,
they're basically gonna be doing away with the
51 person. Amazing.
Amazing.
And so they didn't specifically say that SLPDs,
you know, counted towards, you know, the terminal
degree or anything like that, which is totally
fine,
(41:23):
for me. That's totally fine. I can't I
can't speak for the larger group.
But they are also saying that we want
programs to be able to hire, you know,
content experts
to teach these individual
courses.
So for anyone who has their master's degree,
who is a content expert in fluency or
(41:45):
in cognitive communication
and or in, you know, artic and phonology,
and wants to go in and be able
to teach that at the,
university level,
you know, it will no longer,
be counted against,
you know, this arbitrary 51%
rule for,
(42:06):
for that program,
which is really fantastic because then it just
opens up
this whole ability for,
these academic programs to be able to really
be bringing in,
somewhat of these content experts that might not
have their PhD or or EDD.
And so I think that that's
we're all very excited about that. We talked
(42:27):
about that during our meeting last week, when
we all hopped on together, and I just
think that's a, you know,
major progress.
Awesome.
I love that.
And, Erin, correct me if I'm wrong, but
for our, rehabilitation
colleagues,
occupational therapists and physical therapists,
their clinical doctorates are considered terminal degrees. Correct?
(42:50):
So for DPT,
Courtney, jump in with me on this one.
DPT, that is a terminal degree.
Now OTD has not been has it or
has it not been made mandatory at this
point?
It's not. I don't believe it's mandatory. I
believe the DPT is mandatory.
DPT is mandatory, but the OTD is not.
Correct.
(43:10):
Yeah. It's not.
And so, you know and I think that
also I think, you know, requiring a terminal
degree for our profession
is not the way the majority of speech
pathologists want to go.
You know, from
anecdotally from people that I've spoken with, and
then certainly from reading the Sylvan and Becker
(43:31):
article,
where they did a a a large, you
know, survey of speech pathologists,
is that most people are saying no. You
know, they don't want
the
it to be mandatory to go for some
sort of doctorate degree whatsoever
that, you know, people are afraid that it
would preclude then from, you know, people going
(43:52):
into our profession
as a whole. So,
but I do think that the fact that,
you
know, professionals and clinicians who have a master's
degree in SLPD
and or a PhD, an EDD, you know,
can now be recognized
in these higher education programs,
(44:14):
to be content experts and to be able
to to be hired,
you know, more freely,
I think is really gonna help.
I I agree with you. I think that
that's something that we've all spoken
about is,
you know, we don't necessarily compare our SLPD
to other degrees. We just we really enjoy
(44:35):
seeing it and think there's a tremendous
benefit to seeing it alongside
other degrees. Right? So it's not like an
SLPD versus PhD or EdD situation. It's there
is a tremendous value out of this degree
as a standalone degree,
And there is a lot of benefit in
collaborating with our PhD and EdD and master's
(44:57):
colleagues.
Right? All of them bring a lot to
the table. And it kind of makes me
think of this
pivotal paper that's not in the SLPD realm,
but actually in 1998,
Tourvelon and Marie Garcia
came out with a paper,
kind of encouraging folks to step away from
the term term cultural competence
(45:19):
and move towards cultural humility,
implying that, you know, when you use the
word competence, then it means that you can,
arrive at some kind of destination of knowledge
that you've learned all there is to know.
Right? Whereas the term cultural humility
sort of brings with it this understanding that
you're a lifelong learner, and you you there
is never enough time to learn everything you
(45:40):
need to know. Right? And that's kind of
what I think about when I think about
the SLPD
and my reason for pursuing the SLPD is,
like, hey. I'm a lifelong learner. I can
never know what it everything
about what I wanna know, but I wanna
keep learning. And this is a a tremendous
(46:01):
degree if you wanna keep learning,
accelerating your skills, and then parlaying those skills
into
the kind of different exciting parts of our
field that might previously have felt intimidating or
inaccessible.
Right. Irene, that that's the perfect example of
bridging the gap between
practice based evidence and evidence based practices collaborating
(46:22):
and coexisting in the space of furthering
the field in general.
So well said.
And I think, Irene, also, you know, that
brings back to the point, you know, your
earlier point of equity. Right? We're not we're
not saying that one degree is better than
the other. We're not saying that at all.
We want to be recognized as,
(46:44):
equal, you know, for what we can bring
to the table and what we can offer
to a program or to a school district
or to a health care organization or what
have you.
And so I think that that's what we've
we've all been saying. We all have our
own individual strengths as degrees.
And so we just we want that to
be recognized.
(47:05):
Yeah. This has been awesome conversation, you guys.
Thank you. I think you all brought up
so many points that I had no idea
were even included in the SLPD programs. Like,
I had no idea that a lot of
the other training you guys got, you know,
business, private practice, things like that, I think
is is really, really cool. I had no
idea about that. So thank you for sharing
and especially all of you being from
completely different programs on opposite sides of the
(47:28):
country. So thank you all, Erin, for putting
literally, you guys are all at different different
points of the country. So thank you for
bringing this whole group together. But, yeah, I
think this is an awesome conversation. I mean,
you know, those of us that are
have taken on leadership skills and things like
that within speech pathology
realize that there is much more of a
just a need for more education in this.
(47:48):
And and, also, you know, that's really great
to hear that they got rid of that
51%
rule as well because
we do have so many smart friends that
should be teaching,
that that can't because they just, you know,
don't wanna go on for PhD or have
no desire to go do it. So well,
thank you so much all of you guys
for joining me. It was so nice getting
to chat with you this morning.
(48:09):
Thanks, Teresa. Thanks, Teresa. You have a great
day. Thanks for connecting. Time. It's been a
pleasure.
And that's a wrap for this episode.
As always, thank you so much for listening.
And if you'd like to download the show
notes from this episode, please visit swallowyourpridepodcast.com.
There, you can also sign up for our
email list so that you'll never miss another
(48:30):
episode.
If you do like what you hear, then
please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes,
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friends and colleagues because that is what keeps
these episodes coming.
If you'd like to be a guest, share
feedback, or request a topic to be discussed
on the show, please email podcast@TeresaRichard.com.
(48:50):
Thank you so much for listening, and we'll
catch you next week.
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