July 30, 2022 • 31 mins
If you live in a city, you have lots of animals as neighbours; squirrels, raccoons, rats, skunks, maybe even foxes or coyotes. But what do they look like? How do they move, eat, and interact? This week, Christine and JJ describe the visuals of urban wildlife. That's right trash pandas -- we're talking about you!
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JJ Hunt (00:03):
Talk description to me with Christine Malec and JJ Hunt
Christine Malec (00:27):
Hi, I'm Christine Malec.
JJ Hunt (00:28):
And I'm JJ Hunt. This is talk description to me, where
the visuals of current eventsand the world around us get
hashed out in description richconversations.
Christine Malec (00:47):
In Canada, 80% of us live in cities. And
shockingly, I interviewed notedscientist and environmental
activist David Suzuki recentlyvery exciting to me. And one of
the things I asked him and hispartner, Dr. Tara colorless is
because so many of us live incities, how do we cultivate a
(01:09):
relationship with the naturalworld? Because when I opened my
door, it's concrete andstreetcars. Right? And so how,
how do we maintain thatconnection when we live in a
city and one of the things theyboth said is, well, even in a
city, nature is all around you.
And you know, there's there'sparks, there's always a bit of
green space, there's alwayssomething growing somewhere. And
one aspect of that is urbananimals. And we've talked about
(01:33):
urban landscapes from a fewdifferent angles in the past
about infrastructure and thingslike that. But we've never
talked about the way the naturalworld gets expressed in urban
environments. And as pesky as wemight find some urban animals, I
take comfort in the fact thatthey're still here. And one of
our listeners from Toronto remyaasked about this and what you
(01:55):
know, what goes on in a city interms of urban animal life. And
so we thought we'd break downsome of those those visuals and
what the animals look like, butfor me, it's also about how they
behave and where and when yousee them and what your
(02:16):
interactions are with them. So,JJ, in a typical day, you move
around the city a fair bit. Soin a typical day, what kinds of
urban wildlife Would you wouldyou see?
JJ Hunt (02:29):
Okay, great question.
So, first and foremost, thenumber one animal that that I
would see during a regular daywalking around Toronto,
squirrels, squirrels areeverywhere. Tons of squirrels
hopefully you don't see anyrats, but you might encounter a
rat dead or alive. Raccoons, ifyou're out in the evening,
(02:52):
you're probably going to findsome raccoons about and then you
know, on on any given day, ifyou're, you know, going, going
for a walk through a moreheavily wooded area, like
there's a cemetery nearby eventhat's, it's, you know, quite
close to us. That is a very longcemetery. It stretches for
blocks and blocks and connectsto a few ravines. It's not
(03:13):
unusual if you're in an arealike that to see a coyote. Maybe
a rabbit, maybe a fox, not thoseare not everyday kind of
animals. But certainlysquirrels. You're seeing dozens
of squirrels every single day ifyou're if you're out and about
in Toronto.
Christine Malec (03:34):
And the birds too. I remember one one time I
had, I guess I've been camping alot that summer and I came back
and that common chirping birdyou do not ever hear that
outside the city and it's ahouse Sparrow, I researched so
there's actually birds that arespecific to, to city life to and
the house Sparrow which is animportant species, I believe but
(03:56):
so well, let's start withsquirrels because I know
they're, they're a big part of,you know, of urban life. And so
you see them even during the daylike on Yeah, not on a busy
street, right. We're talkingsupper or like residential
streets.
JJ Hunt (04:09):
Yeah, mostly residential streets. Parks,
anywhere there are trees. Thereare going to be squirrels. I
mean, they're everywhere. Andthey, they're, they're not
afraid of humans. They're notafraid to be seen. I think
that's the big difference.
There's probably as many rats,but they rats don't want to be
seen. Squirrels have no problembeing seen. So they are
(04:32):
constantly running about jumpingabout. They're very quick.
They're very acrobatic, so Imean a squirrel. You know,
classic squirrel would be youknow what, I don't know eight
inches long in the body. Eitherkind of a grayish color, kind of
a gray brown color with a whitebelly or a black squirrel.
Sometimes black squirrels havewhite bellies, but quite black
(04:54):
for long. tails and if it's ahealthy squirrel, a healthy city
squirrel, that tail will bequite puffy. So the tail is at
least as long as the as the bodyof the animal and then fairly
long what what makes thesquirrels a little bit different
because they're very closelyrelated to to rats and mice, but
what makes them different is thelength of their arms and like
(05:17):
the length of their legs and thestrength of their hind legs in
particular, so fairly long frontarms, and then their back legs
are like big hunches at the sidelike horses kind of you ever
like big big muscular hunchesand longer legs look almost like
kangaroo legs. So there's a longpart that is, you know, makes
(05:42):
contact with the ground and thenbends up and goes back into this
haunch. And then yeah, littlerodent face with, you know, a
fairly snub snout. Bat youusually black eyes, ears that
perk straight up. And yeah,quite impressive. Paws or claws
on a squirrel. They areincredible climbers, they can
(06:05):
move about like crazy.
Christine Malec (06:10):
We've talked before specifically when we
talked about insects about thedistinction between cute and not
cute and apparently it's quitedistinct. Not always easy to
codify. But are they cutesquirrels?
JJ Hunt (06:23):
Yeah, so they are... I would say borderline. Some
people really think squirrelsare cute. Especially folks who
are from places where they don'thave a lot of squirrels. We had
some Australian visitors come toour place. And they just lost
their minds with squirrels theyjust couldn't get over how
(06:45):
fantastic and they you know,they they're pretty cute. But
they're also they're everywhere.
And they're they behave a littlebit like rats. I mean, the nice
thing about squirrels is they'renot taking from your garbage,
right, they're not going they'renot mucking around in your
garbage they're taking you know,they're digging up your garden.
And they're finding nuts andseeds and anything they can find
(07:05):
that that's outside but not somuch in your garden so that
makes them a little bit morecute. Their eyes are kind of
beady but really the cute. Ifyou're if you want cute like a
squirrel, then you're gonna goto the chipmunk Chipmunks are
decidedly cuter than squirrels.
So you know, that would be anend you'll see some chipmunks in
(07:27):
the city a little bit. You'veseen them more outside of the
city. They don't, they're not aspopulous the the chipmunk
population isn't, doesn't boomquite the same way the squirrel
population does. But Chipmunksare quite a bit cuter so they're
smaller, their tails aren't asbig and puffy. And they've got
these very distinctive stripesdown their backs. Those
Chipmunks are kind of brown incolor. But they've got these
(07:50):
stripes of dark, dark brown andwhite running down their back.
Their ears are smaller, theirheads are bigger. And the way a
chipmunk can stuffed theircheeks is adorable. I mean, it's
it's just outrageous. This ideaof like stuffing your face like
a chipmunk. It's super real. Soit's really a thing like a
(08:14):
chipmunks head is already biggerproportionally to their body
than a squirrels head isproportional to their body. So
chipmunks head is maybe half thesize of their body. It's pretty
big. Bigger heads remind us ofbabies babies have bigger heads.
It's a very cute look to beginwith. And then they start
stuffing their cheeks and achipmunks stuffed cheeks make
(08:36):
their head three times as large.
I mean, they're huge. When theystuffed their cheeks full their
cheeks go out beyond theirshoulders, for lack of a better
word, they will make it widerthan their body. They're
absolutely packed and thechipmunk will sit up as a
squirrel, but they will sit upon their on their hind legs and
nibble and eat like that. Sothere's something kind of
(09:00):
there's something a little bithuman about sitting up and
looking around as they eat. Sothat's kind of cute. Again, they
share that with with squirrels,but but Chipmunks are just
they're cuter and their eyesaren't quite as big. They have a
little bit of a white lid. Andso even in they'll slight more,
there's a little bit more of analmond shaped to some chipmunk
(09:22):
eyes. That makes them just alittle bit less. You know,
they're not as rat like.
Christine Malec (09:34):
Why are rats sinister?
JJ Hunt (09:39):
So, good question. I mean, there's lots of historical
reasons. But in terms of thevisuals of a rat, so, if you if
you just take a picture of a ratin a picture of a squirrel and
put them side by side, there'snot that much difference. The
rats face is longer. The littlelegs are a little bit shorter.
(10:02):
The they're not quite asmuscular in the hind legs. They
are, you know, usually kind of adark brown, gray brown fur
that's a little bit greasy erthan your average squirrel. But
then the paws on a rat arehairless. They're furless. So
they Oh my god. Yeah. So they'repink and a little bit too human.
(10:28):
Yeah. The big difference is thetail. So a squirrels tail is
covered in fur. And often, likeI said, if it's a healthy
squirrel, it'll be pretty puffy.
A rat tail is just long and kindof fleshy and tapered. And
that's a big difference. Becauseit goes from being soft and
(10:49):
cuddly. To his This is a little,it's not slimy. It's not but I
want to say it isn't slimy atall, but it's something fleshy
about it. That doesn't feelright. There's also the movement
like squirrels. Because of thatstrength in their hind, they hop
and they bound and they leap andthey climb trees. And rats can
(11:12):
do most of the things and get tomost of the places that a
squirrel gets. But they,especially a city rat, if it's
really fat, they have a wattle.
They keep a little bit closer tothe ground. When they move, they
don't bound. They kind of run inskitter and wattle which is a
(11:35):
movement that is less appealing.
And that yeah, and there'ssomething about the way that
rats go after our food, theywant to be in our spaces,
whereas squirrels at worst wantto get into the attic. But, you
know, so when I was a littlekid, my brother woke up one one
night, screaming, and it hadbeen squirrels in the attic and
(11:59):
one of them chewed through thedrywall, the drywall ceiling, my
brother woke up with a squirrellooking straight down through a
hole in the ceiling right abovehis bed. Yeah, but even still,
that was a squirrel. Mybrother's scream the squirrel
ran away. Whereas a rat, you'reworried that they're gonna get
on you. They're gonna get in youbecause they want what you have.
(12:21):
Yes, yeah, rats are a little...
ugh.
Christine Malec (12:29):
I don't know if this is true in other cities,
but in Toronto, the raccoons areepic. They're creatures of
legend. They, they haveopposable thumbs, I think they
have planning strategies. Theyprobably have language skills,
they do things where you go, howthe you what they, they, they
(12:50):
have their own Enigma machines,like really, they they're very
kind. And so can we can we do abit of a breakdown of the
raccoon, the visuals and theantics?
JJ Hunt (13:01):
That's right, the trash pandas.
Christine Malec (13:05):
Trash pandas! Ha ha ha!
JJ Hunt (13:07):
Raccoons are, it's it's funny because they're kind of,
um, there's so all over Toronto.
It's a bit of the like, theunofficial mascot of the city.
In fact, there's, there's aToronto airline that uses the
raccoon as its mascot, becausethey are, if you just look at a
picture, they can be kind ofcute. And they're fluffy and
(13:27):
puffy. And they've got this tailthat is ringed and like it's
really cute. But wow, they aretoo clever. And they are they
come out only at night and theygot this this mask on their
face. So that yeah, we do have avery love hate, largely hate
relationship with raccoons. Soyeah, so the animal and the
(13:48):
other thing is a raccoon in theforest is actually a relatively
lean creature that doesn'treally want to be seen and wants
to be a way from humans. So whenyou catch a glimpse of a raccoon
in a forest environment andwooded environment, it's kind of
cool. They're kind of special.
(14:09):
It's it's a neat animal to see.
But a city raccoon is adifferent beast. So city
raccoons are fat. Like we'retalking way bigger than a house
cat. Oh yeah, raccoons areconsiderably bigger than house
cat really the size of a smalldog and fat gray fur and they
move quickly but they lumber aswell if they want to. If they
are not afraid of you and whichmost are not. They will lumber
(14:33):
and so that the heads come to apoint at us at the snout blacks
note like a big round black nosewith white around it and then
this black mask that goes aroundthe eyes like they do look like
bandits they have this likeclassic black Lone Ranger mask
around their black eyes so youreally can't see their eyes very
(14:54):
well. White just above thatblack mask white fur above that.
So like It looks like a veryheavy brow, and then a gray
color like a you know, likesomeone with salt and pepper
hair kind of gray fur all theway over the ears which stick up
and down the body and around thegirth of big, fairly bushy
(15:15):
animals. And then their tailsare not overly long, but they're
pretty thick. And they're ringedblack and kind of this caramel
color. very distinctive ringedtails. And yeah, that they're
huge. And so when you encountera raccoon, you it's always at
night. If you encounter araccoon during the day, that's a
(15:35):
raccoon you should steer clearof a raccoon will mostly be out
at night, and often withfamilies because they you know,
they got their families nearby.
So if you see if you encounter abig raccoon crossing a
residential street at night stopbecause likely two or three
(15:56):
smaller raccoons are going to betrailing along behind. In those
raccoons, those baby raccoonsare those are like the size of
cats the size of a house cat andthey climb there you can spot
their, their nests in trees,sometimes very high up in the
fall. You can see it just lookslike a pile of leaves and sticks
(16:17):
kind of clumped together high ina tree. But they'll also you
know, they'll nest in the ininside a hollow log or something
like that, but you don't usuallywhat you spot are these nests up
high in the trees. And theychirp You know that very
Christine Malec (16:31):
Yeah yeah yeah.
JJ Hunt (16:32):
So they have big conversations with each other.
distressed chirping?
Christine Malec (16:36):
They sound like fights to me, I don't know
exactly what's going on.
JJ Hunt (16:39):
Yeah. And they are so clever. And yeah, their paws.
Like they when they fight witheach other when they moved. I've
got one photo here, you know, Ijust Googled raccoons and called
up some photos and one photoapp. I'm sure it's this this
raccoon is eating you know,sitting up on the on the hind
(17:01):
legs and bringing food to mouth.
But the claws the paws are theirfingers. They are so clear.
Every single digit is very, veryclear. With the long like, like
witchy nails. Yeah, each paw andit looks like this. This animal
which is probably like I said,using two hands to bring food to
mouth. It looks like it's doinglike the Monty burns. Excellent
(17:25):
jibs are tapping each other justbelow the snout and with this
mask on and the it's likethey're they do look nasty. Have
you ever had a nasty raccoon encounter?
Christine Malec (17:40):
I'm just I came out of my back door and there
was something at the bottom of atree, maybe like two or three
meters away from me that made abig squawk and scrambled up the
tree and that was a littlealarming, because pretty sure it
was a raccoon. Yeah, they'rethere. They're very agitated,
they get agitated, and they'rethey're a bit alarming because
(18:01):
you think oh my god, look thatcould do anything. That's it.
Yeah, it
JJ Hunt (18:04):
A raccoon, if it wants to, it can do some damage.
They're big. They are strong,and they're fearless. They don't
care. When I was when I was Iguess I was probably about 13 It
was my job to take the garbageout. We had this little kind of
garbage box at the side of thehouse that had it was a wooden
(18:25):
box with an angled lid, a slopedlid, and we had the garbage cans
in there. So you know I'm takingout the garbage. It's dark out.
Got a couple bags of garbagethat I'm supposed to I gotta
push open this big heavy woodenlid and then throw the bags into
the trash cans that are inside.
But as I started lifting up thelid, a raccoon leapt out
(18:47):
straight at me. The raccoon hadmanaged to get inside this bin
and was rooting around in thegarbage. So this probably 40
pound furry animal with clawsjumps straight out at me. I lost
it I lost it super scary and youknow all the all the raccoon
wanted to do is get away from meat that point. You know an Oreos
(19:08):
bag in its mouth.
Christine Malec (19:15):
Yeah, every Torontonian has a story about
their cutting and their theirthe power went out here. It was
in the winter and so we took allof our freezer stuff out and put
it in a sturdy shopping bag andI was aware I wasn't naive i i
suspended it I took a chairoutside and I tied it way up and
(19:35):
I suspended it from an outsidestaircase and they got out at
any way you would have had tolike pour across this like half
inch wide railing and reach wayup about a foot and a half to
tear open the corner and eat ourchicken dumplings like they
meant they were not kiddingaround. Yeah, every Torontonian
(19:56):
has a story totally hunting gotthe carnage and another A
similarly storied animal is theskunk. Don't we all have a skunk
story? So can you start with thevisuals of what they look like?
JJ Hunt (20:09):
Yeah, so the the skunk, of course, largely black animal
long, kind of tapered, snout,and fairly free. But if you
really have to look up photos ofa skunk, you can't just rely on
your encounters because they'reonly out at night. So of course,
skunks, mostly very, very darkblack, jet black, but they have
(20:33):
the white stripes down theirback, most of the skunks that we
have around here have kind oflike a split stripe down the
back. So it's a patch of whiteon the top of the head, that
then splits into two stripesthat go kind of down the sides
of the back, and then reconnectkind of near the base of the
(20:54):
tail. And then the tail is ispuffy, white and black mix. But
I have seen pictures of someskunks that their entire back is
white, like one night thickstriped down the back. But when
you're in when you encounter askunk at night, if you don't
smell them first. Because evenwhen they haven't sprayed, of
course they haven't they do havean odor. They do have a smell.
(21:16):
But if you just walk around acorner or something like that,
and you encounter a skunkvisually before you have smelled
it, usually all you see is alittle bit of movement and that
white, because they're so dark.
Like I really I've found somepictures here but I can't
describe faces very well.
There's a little very thin whitestripe that goes from the tip of
(21:40):
the pointy snout up the middleof the head. But I can't see the
details of their features. Ican't see their eyes. I can't
really see their ears. They areso black. They are very well
masked except for the white.
That's all you see if you seethem at all.
Christine Malec (21:53):
Wow. And is it true that they have this
stomping behavior before theyspray? Have you ever witnessed
that I've heard they sort ofturn around and stomp a foot a
few times or something.
JJ Hunt (22:05):
Oh, that's I've never I've not seen that in person.
I've certainly seen like, I'veseen him turn like I've had that
moment where you round a cornerand there's a skunk and you kind
of start lit and it turns andyou know it goes tailed towards
you. And it's like back away.
Back away quickly. It's no it'sno good. Oh, gosh. Yeah,
Christine Malec (22:31):
yeah, everyone's got a story about
that. I used to have guide dogs.
My second guide dog had avendetta. He caught one once and
God sprayed and I don't evenwant to talk about it. But he he
got a vendetta and he went afterthem after that. He's like, I'm
gonna get you this time. And weended up first second. I'd walk
onto a bus like three monthslater, I'd get on a city bus and
(22:54):
just go "Sorry!"
JJ (22:59):
Oh, yeah, it lasts forever.
Christine Malec (23:01):
Forever. Yeah, it was bad. in an urban
environment, what other kinds ofwildlife Do you see? And also,
how do you see wildlifeinteracting with each other?
Like, do you ever see a predatorprey activity going on? Do you
see the cycle of life acting outin a city? Other than with the people?
JJ Hunt (23:20):
Yeah, interesting. So I mean, I've never seen an
encounter between a raccoon anda squirrel. Lots of like house
pets and wild animals. So mycats love chasing squirrels. Oh,
never to be caught. Like they'renot ever gonna catch any of
these squirrels. But they likethat as a game almost. But they
actually for the most part arepretty casual with each other.
(23:41):
Like I've got one cat who's lessinterested in catching squirrels
and that cat will just sit inthe yard while the squirrels eat
all the food in the garden. Thatcat doesn't care.
Christine Malec (23:53):
Heh heh! Can't you put yourself to some use for
a change?!
JJ Hunt (23:57):
Ha ha! Chase that thing away, it's our chard, man! And
same with raccoons like a housecat, like or or a dog that's led
out into the into the yard to goto the bathroom and I might
encounter a raccoon. Butraccoons and squirrels. I've
never seen an issue withsquirrels and chipmunks. I've
never seen an issue withsquirrel fights. Absolutely. So
(24:18):
Oh, squirrels get territorialwith each other. In fact, when
when Rovio suggested this story,I was relating to her it
happened to be she suggested ason the same day that my family
had been outside in the backyardhaving a nice Father's Day
brunch. And there were a coupleof squirrels who were really
going at it, and we couldn'tquite decide if they were
(24:40):
combatants or lovers. But theywere chasing each other all
around all of the yards in theneighborhood because we're
connected to a pocket of otherpeople's backyards. And so we're
hopping fences flying from oneyard to another up a tree down
here, and they wound up. Thesetwo squirrels get tangled too.
Gather like in old cartoons,when to you know, people fight.
(25:02):
There's like this ball of dustand like a limb will stick out
here if it sticks out than anarm. And then when the dust
finally settles, one of them'sgot a black eye and the other
one has a band aids and acrosson their cheek, it's like that
kind of cartoon fight betweenthe squirrels, and they wound up
hanging from the branch of atree, one squirrel holding on
(25:24):
with one paw hanging from thebranch while the other squirrel
was kind of climbing all aroundthem while Oh, dangling from the
other schools arm and they fell,the two squirrels fell out of
the tree and landed on a shedroof probably 20 feet down, they
landed with a thud, and thenthey both took off in opposite
directions. That's it. Yeah. Soyou see that kind of
(25:47):
interaction? And then the kindof scaffold a little bit more
nerve wracking is when youencounter something like a fox
I'm not too worried about butyou do see there are some Fox
around the city that's kind ofclearly and then the coyotes,
the coyotes are the ones alittle bit more careful about.
Christine Malec (26:05):
Yeah, I see on our Facebook residents group all
the tow coyote alert at five inthe morning, and the ravine,
whatever and so why, why arethey alarming? Is that their
looks or what they do
JJ Hunt (26:17):
A little bit of both.
So I mean, I always just find itkind of amazing that we've got
wild animals in our cities thatare as big as a coyote or a
deer. I mean, there are deerthat live in the city
Christine Malec (26:30):
It's true. I've heard I've heard deer sightings
as well. Yeah.
JJ Hunt (26:34):
I encountered a deer in High Park one time Oh my god.
Yeah, which is a very, very wellpopulated Park. Lots of people,
but coyotes in particular. So acoyote is about the size of a of
a modest German Shepherd. So alittle bit smaller than a big
Husky German Shepherd. But, butabout that size, a scene kind of
(26:55):
coloring, long snout, big ears,coyotes tend to have longer
legs, so they're a little bitleaner. But bushy tails again,
in this kind of brown gray colorwith a little bit more black in
the tail. Beautiful coloring,actually, they are very handsome
animals, that these almondshaped yellow eyes, and they
(27:16):
walk often if you encounter acoyote, they'll be walking with
their head motionless. So therest of the body, the shoulders
are moving up and down. The legsare moving as they walk. But the
head stays perfectly still, asit as it moves through a park or
whatever. And yeah, they're alittle they're intimidating
(27:37):
because they they just theywatch you. And if they have, if
you can see them, it's becausethey have decided that Oh should
see them. They know how to hide.
And so I was walking in thecemetery area that's near that's
near our place. And Iencountered not one but two
coyotes together. And that wasreally scary. Because now
(27:58):
they've got now there's twoagainst me. Yeah. And they were
not they were not interested inmoving. So I was walking down
the road in the cemetery andthey were right at the edge of
the road. And they did not moveas I got closer. And you know, I
walked backwards for a while.
(28:19):
Oh, yeah, my sights the wholetime. But not looking them
straight in the eye because Ididn't want to be challenging to
them. A fox is better a fox haslike some of the mystique. But
without without doesn't terrify me.
Christine Malec (28:37):
It must be something that sighted people
absolutely take for granted in acity. You know, probably not on
a busy street, but on theresidential streets say and so
do you think that if just athought experiment, if all of
the animals we describedvanished? Would you notice in
(28:59):
your day going about your day?
Would you notice that?
JJ Hunt (29:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Especially thesquirrels. Okay. They have
there's so much a part of ofcity life, especially if you are
in a in a treed city of a treata city with lots of parks. I
mean, my understanding is thatsquirrels were introduced into
cities intentionally. So they'dbeen introduced a couple of
(29:25):
times before, but the way theytook hold my understanding is
and I'm not super wellresearched on this, but I think
it was New York City CentralPark, they were building this
beautiful park and it wasgorgeous. And it was supposed to
be this kind of wild environmentfor city dwellers to have access
to, but it was missingsomething. It was lacking a
(29:46):
natural connection. Peopleweren't quite connecting with
it. So they brought squirrels inbecause squirrels were forest
creatures. They were woodlandcreatures, and that was going to
help people connect with them.
The Park as a wild space as aspace that was supposed to be
representative of, of a forest.
And squirrels being rodentsmultiplied like crazy. And now
(30:08):
they have, you know, they'vegone through periods where they
had to call them because they'rejust so many. So it really those
animals do, like you said offthe top, they help us connect
with nature. And so seeinganimals in our cities does make
you feel like maybe we're nottoo far removed, right? We are
(30:30):
animals ourselves, we are livingin a you know, very human, you
know, human made interfered withenvironment, but we still have a
connection to these furry littlewoodland creatures. So if they
disappeared, yeah, if the ratswent away, I wouldn't have any
complaints but the squirrelswould be upsetting.
Christine Malec (30:56):
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Talk description to me with Christine Malec and JJ Hunt
Christine Malec (00:27):
Hi, I'm Christine Malec.
JJ Hunt (00:28):
And I'm JJ Hunt. This is talk description to me, where
the visuals of current eventsand the world around us get
hashed out in description richconversations.
Christine Malec (00:47):
In Canada, 80% of us live in cities. And
shockingly, I interviewed notedscientist and environmental
activist David Suzuki recentlyvery exciting to me. And one of
the things I asked him and hispartner, Dr. Tara colorless is
because so many of us live incities, how do we cultivate a
(01:09):
relationship with the naturalworld? Because when I opened my
door, it's concrete andstreetcars. Right? And so how,
how do we maintain thatconnection when we live in a
city and one of the things theyboth said is, well, even in a
city, nature is all around you.
And you know, there's there'sparks, there's always a bit of
green space, there's alwayssomething growing somewhere. And
one aspect of that is urbananimals. And we've talked about
(01:33):
urban landscapes from a fewdifferent angles in the past
about infrastructure and thingslike that. But we've never
talked about the way the naturalworld gets expressed in urban
environments. And as pesky as wemight find some urban animals, I
take comfort in the fact thatthey're still here. And one of
our listeners from Toronto remyaasked about this and what you
(01:55):
know, what goes on in a city interms of urban animal life. And
so we thought we'd break downsome of those those visuals and
what the animals look like, butfor me, it's also about how they
behave and where and when yousee them and what your
(02:16):
interactions are with them. So,JJ, in a typical day, you move
around the city a fair bit. Soin a typical day, what kinds of
urban wildlife Would you wouldyou see?
JJ Hunt (02:29):
Okay, great question.
So, first and foremost, thenumber one animal that that I
would see during a regular daywalking around Toronto,
squirrels, squirrels areeverywhere. Tons of squirrels
hopefully you don't see anyrats, but you might encounter a
rat dead or alive. Raccoons, ifyou're out in the evening,
(02:52):
you're probably going to findsome raccoons about and then you
know, on on any given day, ifyou're, you know, going, going
for a walk through a moreheavily wooded area, like
there's a cemetery nearby eventhat's, it's, you know, quite
close to us. That is a very longcemetery. It stretches for
blocks and blocks and connectsto a few ravines. It's not
(03:13):
unusual if you're in an arealike that to see a coyote. Maybe
a rabbit, maybe a fox, not thoseare not everyday kind of
animals. But certainlysquirrels. You're seeing dozens
of squirrels every single day ifyou're if you're out and about
in Toronto.
Christine Malec (03:34):
And the birds too. I remember one one time I
had, I guess I've been camping alot that summer and I came back
and that common chirping birdyou do not ever hear that
outside the city and it's ahouse Sparrow, I researched so
there's actually birds that arespecific to, to city life to and
the house Sparrow which is animportant species, I believe but
(03:56):
so well, let's start withsquirrels because I know
they're, they're a big part of,you know, of urban life. And so
you see them even during the daylike on Yeah, not on a busy
street, right. We're talkingsupper or like residential
streets.
JJ Hunt (04:09):
Yeah, mostly residential streets. Parks,
anywhere there are trees. Thereare going to be squirrels. I
mean, they're everywhere. Andthey, they're, they're not
afraid of humans. They're notafraid to be seen. I think
that's the big difference.
There's probably as many rats,but they rats don't want to be
seen. Squirrels have no problembeing seen. So they are
(04:32):
constantly running about jumpingabout. They're very quick.
They're very acrobatic, so Imean a squirrel. You know,
classic squirrel would be youknow what, I don't know eight
inches long in the body. Eitherkind of a grayish color, kind of
a gray brown color with a whitebelly or a black squirrel.
Sometimes black squirrels havewhite bellies, but quite black
(04:54):
for long. tails and if it's ahealthy squirrel, a healthy city
squirrel, that tail will bequite puffy. So the tail is at
least as long as the as the bodyof the animal and then fairly
long what what makes thesquirrels a little bit different
because they're very closelyrelated to to rats and mice, but
what makes them different is thelength of their arms and like
(05:17):
the length of their legs and thestrength of their hind legs in
particular, so fairly long frontarms, and then their back legs
are like big hunches at the sidelike horses kind of you ever
like big big muscular hunchesand longer legs look almost like
kangaroo legs. So there's a longpart that is, you know, makes
(05:42):
contact with the ground and thenbends up and goes back into this
haunch. And then yeah, littlerodent face with, you know, a
fairly snub snout. Bat youusually black eyes, ears that
perk straight up. And yeah,quite impressive. Paws or claws
on a squirrel. They areincredible climbers, they can
(06:05):
move about like crazy.
Christine Malec (06:10):
We've talked before specifically when we
talked about insects about thedistinction between cute and not
cute and apparently it's quitedistinct. Not always easy to
codify. But are they cutesquirrels?
JJ Hunt (06:23):
Yeah, so they are... I would say borderline. Some
people really think squirrelsare cute. Especially folks who
are from places where they don'thave a lot of squirrels. We had
some Australian visitors come toour place. And they just lost
their minds with squirrels theyjust couldn't get over how
(06:45):
fantastic and they you know,they they're pretty cute. But
they're also they're everywhere.
And they're they behave a littlebit like rats. I mean, the nice
thing about squirrels is they'renot taking from your garbage,
right, they're not going they'renot mucking around in your
garbage they're taking you know,they're digging up your garden.
And they're finding nuts andseeds and anything they can find
(07:05):
that that's outside but not somuch in your garden so that
makes them a little bit morecute. Their eyes are kind of
beady but really the cute. Ifyou're if you want cute like a
squirrel, then you're gonna goto the chipmunk Chipmunks are
decidedly cuter than squirrels.
So you know, that would be anend you'll see some chipmunks in
(07:27):
the city a little bit. You'veseen them more outside of the
city. They don't, they're not aspopulous the the chipmunk
population isn't, doesn't boomquite the same way the squirrel
population does. But Chipmunksare quite a bit cuter so they're
smaller, their tails aren't asbig and puffy. And they've got
these very distinctive stripesdown their backs. Those
Chipmunks are kind of brown incolor. But they've got these
(07:50):
stripes of dark, dark brown andwhite running down their back.
Their ears are smaller, theirheads are bigger. And the way a
chipmunk can stuffed theircheeks is adorable. I mean, it's
it's just outrageous. This ideaof like stuffing your face like
a chipmunk. It's super real. Soit's really a thing like a
(08:14):
chipmunks head is already biggerproportionally to their body
than a squirrels head isproportional to their body. So
chipmunks head is maybe half thesize of their body. It's pretty
big. Bigger heads remind us ofbabies babies have bigger heads.
It's a very cute look to beginwith. And then they start
stuffing their cheeks and achipmunks stuffed cheeks make
(08:36):
their head three times as large.
I mean, they're huge. When theystuffed their cheeks full their
cheeks go out beyond theirshoulders, for lack of a better
word, they will make it widerthan their body. They're
absolutely packed and thechipmunk will sit up as a
squirrel, but they will sit upon their on their hind legs and
nibble and eat like that. Sothere's something kind of
(09:00):
there's something a little bithuman about sitting up and
looking around as they eat. Sothat's kind of cute. Again, they
share that with with squirrels,but but Chipmunks are just
they're cuter and their eyesaren't quite as big. They have a
little bit of a white lid. Andso even in they'll slight more,
there's a little bit more of analmond shaped to some chipmunk
(09:22):
eyes. That makes them just alittle bit less. You know,
they're not as rat like.
Christine Malec (09:34):
Why are rats sinister?
JJ Hunt (09:39):
So, good question. I mean, there's lots of historical
reasons. But in terms of thevisuals of a rat, so, if you if
you just take a picture of a ratin a picture of a squirrel and
put them side by side, there'snot that much difference. The
rats face is longer. The littlelegs are a little bit shorter.
(10:02):
The they're not quite asmuscular in the hind legs. They
are, you know, usually kind of adark brown, gray brown fur
that's a little bit greasy erthan your average squirrel. But
then the paws on a rat arehairless. They're furless. So
they Oh my god. Yeah. So they'repink and a little bit too human.
(10:28):
Yeah. The big difference is thetail. So a squirrels tail is
covered in fur. And often, likeI said, if it's a healthy
squirrel, it'll be pretty puffy.
A rat tail is just long and kindof fleshy and tapered. And
that's a big difference. Becauseit goes from being soft and
(10:49):
cuddly. To his This is a little,it's not slimy. It's not but I
want to say it isn't slimy atall, but it's something fleshy
about it. That doesn't feelright. There's also the movement
like squirrels. Because of thatstrength in their hind, they hop
and they bound and they leap andthey climb trees. And rats can
(11:12):
do most of the things and get tomost of the places that a
squirrel gets. But they,especially a city rat, if it's
really fat, they have a wattle.
They keep a little bit closer tothe ground. When they move, they
don't bound. They kind of run inskitter and wattle which is a
(11:35):
movement that is less appealing.
And that yeah, and there'ssomething about the way that
rats go after our food, theywant to be in our spaces,
whereas squirrels at worst wantto get into the attic. But, you
know, so when I was a littlekid, my brother woke up one one
night, screaming, and it hadbeen squirrels in the attic and
(11:59):
one of them chewed through thedrywall, the drywall ceiling, my
brother woke up with a squirrellooking straight down through a
hole in the ceiling right abovehis bed. Yeah, but even still,
that was a squirrel. Mybrother's scream the squirrel
ran away. Whereas a rat, you'reworried that they're gonna get
on you. They're gonna get in youbecause they want what you have.
(12:21):
Yes, yeah, rats are a little...
ugh.
Christine Malec (12:29):
I don't know if this is true in other cities,
but in Toronto, the raccoons areepic. They're creatures of
legend. They, they haveopposable thumbs, I think they
have planning strategies. Theyprobably have language skills,
they do things where you go, howthe you what they, they, they
(12:50):
have their own Enigma machines,like really, they they're very
kind. And so can we can we do abit of a breakdown of the
raccoon, the visuals and theantics?
JJ Hunt (13:01):
That's right, the trash pandas.
Christine Malec (13:05):
Trash pandas! Ha ha ha!
JJ Hunt (13:07):
Raccoons are, it's it's funny because they're kind of,
um, there's so all over Toronto.
It's a bit of the like, theunofficial mascot of the city.
In fact, there's, there's aToronto airline that uses the
raccoon as its mascot, becausethey are, if you just look at a
picture, they can be kind ofcute. And they're fluffy and
(13:27):
puffy. And they've got this tailthat is ringed and like it's
really cute. But wow, they aretoo clever. And they are they
come out only at night and theygot this this mask on their
face. So that yeah, we do have avery love hate, largely hate
relationship with raccoons. Soyeah, so the animal and the
(13:48):
other thing is a raccoon in theforest is actually a relatively
lean creature that doesn'treally want to be seen and wants
to be a way from humans. So whenyou catch a glimpse of a raccoon
in a forest environment andwooded environment, it's kind of
cool. They're kind of special.
(14:09):
It's it's a neat animal to see.
But a city raccoon is adifferent beast. So city
raccoons are fat. Like we'retalking way bigger than a house
cat. Oh yeah, raccoons areconsiderably bigger than house
cat really the size of a smalldog and fat gray fur and they
move quickly but they lumber aswell if they want to. If they
are not afraid of you and whichmost are not. They will lumber
(14:33):
and so that the heads come to apoint at us at the snout blacks
note like a big round black nosewith white around it and then
this black mask that goes aroundthe eyes like they do look like
bandits they have this likeclassic black Lone Ranger mask
around their black eyes so youreally can't see their eyes very
(14:54):
well. White just above thatblack mask white fur above that.
So like It looks like a veryheavy brow, and then a gray
color like a you know, likesomeone with salt and pepper
hair kind of gray fur all theway over the ears which stick up
and down the body and around thegirth of big, fairly bushy
(15:15):
animals. And then their tailsare not overly long, but they're
pretty thick. And they're ringedblack and kind of this caramel
color. very distinctive ringedtails. And yeah, that they're
huge. And so when you encountera raccoon, you it's always at
night. If you encounter araccoon during the day, that's a
(15:35):
raccoon you should steer clearof a raccoon will mostly be out
at night, and often withfamilies because they you know,
they got their families nearby.
So if you see if you encounter abig raccoon crossing a
residential street at night stopbecause likely two or three
(15:56):
smaller raccoons are going to betrailing along behind. In those
raccoons, those baby raccoonsare those are like the size of
cats the size of a house cat andthey climb there you can spot
their, their nests in trees,sometimes very high up in the
fall. You can see it just lookslike a pile of leaves and sticks
(16:17):
kind of clumped together high ina tree. But they'll also you
know, they'll nest in the ininside a hollow log or something
like that, but you don't usuallywhat you spot are these nests up
high in the trees. And theychirp You know that very
Christine Malec (16:31):
Yeah yeah yeah.
JJ Hunt (16:32):
So they have big conversations with each other.
distressed chirping?
Christine Malec (16:36):
They sound like fights to me, I don't know
exactly what's going on.
JJ Hunt (16:39):
Yeah. And they are so clever. And yeah, their paws.
Like they when they fight witheach other when they moved. I've
got one photo here, you know, Ijust Googled raccoons and called
up some photos and one photoapp. I'm sure it's this this
raccoon is eating you know,sitting up on the on the hind
(17:01):
legs and bringing food to mouth.
But the claws the paws are theirfingers. They are so clear.
Every single digit is very, veryclear. With the long like, like
witchy nails. Yeah, each paw andit looks like this. This animal
which is probably like I said,using two hands to bring food to
mouth. It looks like it's doinglike the Monty burns. Excellent
(17:25):
jibs are tapping each other justbelow the snout and with this
mask on and the it's likethey're they do look nasty. Have
you ever had a nasty raccoon encounter?
Christine Malec (17:40):
I'm just I came out of my back door and there
was something at the bottom of atree, maybe like two or three
meters away from me that made abig squawk and scrambled up the
tree and that was a littlealarming, because pretty sure it
was a raccoon. Yeah, they'rethere. They're very agitated,
they get agitated, and they'rethey're a bit alarming because
(18:01):
you think oh my god, look thatcould do anything. That's it.
Yeah, it
JJ Hunt (18:04):
A raccoon, if it wants to, it can do some damage.
They're big. They are strong,and they're fearless. They don't
care. When I was when I was Iguess I was probably about 13 It
was my job to take the garbageout. We had this little kind of
garbage box at the side of thehouse that had it was a wooden
(18:25):
box with an angled lid, a slopedlid, and we had the garbage cans
in there. So you know I'm takingout the garbage. It's dark out.
Got a couple bags of garbagethat I'm supposed to I gotta
push open this big heavy woodenlid and then throw the bags into
the trash cans that are inside.
But as I started lifting up thelid, a raccoon leapt out
(18:47):
straight at me. The raccoon hadmanaged to get inside this bin
and was rooting around in thegarbage. So this probably 40
pound furry animal with clawsjumps straight out at me. I lost
it I lost it super scary and youknow all the all the raccoon
wanted to do is get away from meat that point. You know an Oreos
(19:08):
bag in its mouth.
Christine Malec (19:15):
Yeah, every Torontonian has a story about
their cutting and their theirthe power went out here. It was
in the winter and so we took allof our freezer stuff out and put
it in a sturdy shopping bag andI was aware I wasn't naive i i
suspended it I took a chairoutside and I tied it way up and
(19:35):
I suspended it from an outsidestaircase and they got out at
any way you would have had tolike pour across this like half
inch wide railing and reach wayup about a foot and a half to
tear open the corner and eat ourchicken dumplings like they
meant they were not kiddingaround. Yeah, every Torontonian
(19:56):
has a story totally hunting gotthe carnage and another A
similarly storied animal is theskunk. Don't we all have a skunk
story? So can you start with thevisuals of what they look like?
JJ Hunt (20:09):
Yeah, so the the skunk, of course, largely black animal
long, kind of tapered, snout,and fairly free. But if you
really have to look up photos ofa skunk, you can't just rely on
your encounters because they'reonly out at night. So of course,
skunks, mostly very, very darkblack, jet black, but they have
(20:33):
the white stripes down theirback, most of the skunks that we
have around here have kind oflike a split stripe down the
back. So it's a patch of whiteon the top of the head, that
then splits into two stripesthat go kind of down the sides
of the back, and then reconnectkind of near the base of the
(20:54):
tail. And then the tail is ispuffy, white and black mix. But
I have seen pictures of someskunks that their entire back is
white, like one night thickstriped down the back. But when
you're in when you encounter askunk at night, if you don't
smell them first. Because evenwhen they haven't sprayed, of
course they haven't they do havean odor. They do have a smell.
(21:16):
But if you just walk around acorner or something like that,
and you encounter a skunkvisually before you have smelled
it, usually all you see is alittle bit of movement and that
white, because they're so dark.
Like I really I've found somepictures here but I can't
describe faces very well.
There's a little very thin whitestripe that goes from the tip of
(21:40):
the pointy snout up the middleof the head. But I can't see the
details of their features. Ican't see their eyes. I can't
really see their ears. They areso black. They are very well
masked except for the white.
That's all you see if you seethem at all.
Christine Malec (21:53):
Wow. And is it true that they have this
stomping behavior before theyspray? Have you ever witnessed
that I've heard they sort ofturn around and stomp a foot a
few times or something.
JJ Hunt (22:05):
Oh, that's I've never I've not seen that in person.
I've certainly seen like, I'veseen him turn like I've had that
moment where you round a cornerand there's a skunk and you kind
of start lit and it turns andyou know it goes tailed towards
you. And it's like back away.
Back away quickly. It's no it'sno good. Oh, gosh. Yeah,
Christine Malec (22:31):
yeah, everyone's got a story about
that. I used to have guide dogs.
My second guide dog had avendetta. He caught one once and
God sprayed and I don't evenwant to talk about it. But he he
got a vendetta and he went afterthem after that. He's like, I'm
gonna get you this time. And weended up first second. I'd walk
onto a bus like three monthslater, I'd get on a city bus and
(22:54):
just go "Sorry!"
JJ (22:59):
Oh, yeah, it lasts forever.
Christine Malec (23:01):
Forever. Yeah, it was bad. in an urban
environment, what other kinds ofwildlife Do you see? And also,
how do you see wildlifeinteracting with each other?
Like, do you ever see a predatorprey activity going on? Do you
see the cycle of life acting outin a city? Other than with the people?
JJ Hunt (23:20):
Yeah, interesting. So I mean, I've never seen an
encounter between a raccoon anda squirrel. Lots of like house
pets and wild animals. So mycats love chasing squirrels. Oh,
never to be caught. Like they'renot ever gonna catch any of
these squirrels. But they likethat as a game almost. But they
actually for the most part arepretty casual with each other.
(23:41):
Like I've got one cat who's lessinterested in catching squirrels
and that cat will just sit inthe yard while the squirrels eat
all the food in the garden. Thatcat doesn't care.
Christine Malec (23:53):
Heh heh! Can't you put yourself to some use for
a change?!
JJ Hunt (23:57):
Ha ha! Chase that thing away, it's our chard, man! And
same with raccoons like a housecat, like or or a dog that's led
out into the into the yard to goto the bathroom and I might
encounter a raccoon. Butraccoons and squirrels. I've
never seen an issue withsquirrels and chipmunks. I've
never seen an issue withsquirrel fights. Absolutely. So
(24:18):
Oh, squirrels get territorialwith each other. In fact, when
when Rovio suggested this story,I was relating to her it
happened to be she suggested ason the same day that my family
had been outside in the backyardhaving a nice Father's Day
brunch. And there were a coupleof squirrels who were really
going at it, and we couldn'tquite decide if they were
(24:40):
combatants or lovers. But theywere chasing each other all
around all of the yards in theneighborhood because we're
connected to a pocket of otherpeople's backyards. And so we're
hopping fences flying from oneyard to another up a tree down
here, and they wound up. Thesetwo squirrels get tangled too.
Gather like in old cartoons,when to you know, people fight.
(25:02):
There's like this ball of dustand like a limb will stick out
here if it sticks out than anarm. And then when the dust
finally settles, one of them'sgot a black eye and the other
one has a band aids and acrosson their cheek, it's like that
kind of cartoon fight betweenthe squirrels, and they wound up
hanging from the branch of atree, one squirrel holding on
(25:24):
with one paw hanging from thebranch while the other squirrel
was kind of climbing all aroundthem while Oh, dangling from the
other schools arm and they fell,the two squirrels fell out of
the tree and landed on a shedroof probably 20 feet down, they
landed with a thud, and thenthey both took off in opposite
directions. That's it. Yeah. Soyou see that kind of
(25:47):
interaction? And then the kindof scaffold a little bit more
nerve wracking is when youencounter something like a fox
I'm not too worried about butyou do see there are some Fox
around the city that's kind ofclearly and then the coyotes,
the coyotes are the ones alittle bit more careful about.
Christine Malec (26:05):
Yeah, I see on our Facebook residents group all
the tow coyote alert at five inthe morning, and the ravine,
whatever and so why, why arethey alarming? Is that their
looks or what they do
JJ Hunt (26:17):
A little bit of both.
So I mean, I always just find itkind of amazing that we've got
wild animals in our cities thatare as big as a coyote or a
deer. I mean, there are deerthat live in the city
Christine Malec (26:30):
It's true. I've heard I've heard deer sightings
as well. Yeah.
JJ Hunt (26:34):
I encountered a deer in High Park one time Oh my god.
Yeah, which is a very, very wellpopulated Park. Lots of people,
but coyotes in particular. So acoyote is about the size of a of
a modest German Shepherd. So alittle bit smaller than a big
Husky German Shepherd. But, butabout that size, a scene kind of
(26:55):
coloring, long snout, big ears,coyotes tend to have longer
legs, so they're a little bitleaner. But bushy tails again,
in this kind of brown gray colorwith a little bit more black in
the tail. Beautiful coloring,actually, they are very handsome
animals, that these almondshaped yellow eyes, and they
(27:16):
walk often if you encounter acoyote, they'll be walking with
their head motionless. So therest of the body, the shoulders
are moving up and down. The legsare moving as they walk. But the
head stays perfectly still, asit as it moves through a park or
whatever. And yeah, they're alittle they're intimidating
(27:37):
because they they just theywatch you. And if they have, if
you can see them, it's becausethey have decided that Oh should
see them. They know how to hide.
And so I was walking in thecemetery area that's near that's
near our place. And Iencountered not one but two
coyotes together. And that wasreally scary. Because now
(27:58):
they've got now there's twoagainst me. Yeah. And they were
not they were not interested inmoving. So I was walking down
the road in the cemetery andthey were right at the edge of
the road. And they did not moveas I got closer. And you know, I
walked backwards for a while.
(28:19):
Oh, yeah, my sights the wholetime. But not looking them
straight in the eye because Ididn't want to be challenging to
them. A fox is better a fox haslike some of the mystique. But
without without doesn't terrify me.
Christine Malec (28:37):
It must be something that sighted people
absolutely take for granted in acity. You know, probably not on
a busy street, but on theresidential streets say and so
do you think that if just athought experiment, if all of
the animals we describedvanished? Would you notice in
(28:59):
your day going about your day?
Would you notice that?
JJ Hunt (29:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Especially thesquirrels. Okay. They have
there's so much a part of ofcity life, especially if you are
in a in a treed city of a treata city with lots of parks. I
mean, my understanding is thatsquirrels were introduced into
cities intentionally. So they'dbeen introduced a couple of
(29:25):
times before, but the way theytook hold my understanding is
and I'm not super wellresearched on this, but I think
it was New York City CentralPark, they were building this
beautiful park and it wasgorgeous. And it was supposed to
be this kind of wild environmentfor city dwellers to have access
to, but it was missingsomething. It was lacking a
(29:46):
natural connection. Peopleweren't quite connecting with
it. So they brought squirrels inbecause squirrels were forest
creatures. They were woodlandcreatures, and that was going to
help people connect with them.
The Park as a wild space as aspace that was supposed to be
representative of, of a forest.
And squirrels being rodentsmultiplied like crazy. And now
(30:08):
they have, you know, they'vegone through periods where they
had to call them because they'rejust so many. So it really those
animals do, like you said offthe top, they help us connect
with nature. And so seeinganimals in our cities does make
you feel like maybe we're nottoo far removed, right? We are
(30:30):
animals ourselves, we are livingin a you know, very human, you
know, human made interfered withenvironment, but we still have a
connection to these furry littlewoodland creatures. So if they
disappeared, yeah, if the ratswent away, I wouldn't have any
complaints but the squirrelswould be upsetting.
Christine Malec (30:56):
We love making this podcast. If you love
hearing it, perhaps you'llconsider supporting its creation
and development by becoming apatron. We've set up a Patreon
page to help cover the costs ofputting the show together. You
can contribute as a listener oras a sponsor to help ensure that
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our community. Visitpatreon.com/talk Description To
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me that's pa t ar e o n.com/talkdescription to me have feedback
or suggestions of what you'dlike to hear about here's how to
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(31:42):
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