June 16, 2025 • 29 mins
We're diving into the heart of the blues today, zooming in on the legendary Robert Johnson and the infamous Devil's Crossroads.
You know, the place where the myth says he sold his soul for guitar skills that would make your jaw drop. Jenn and I are your trusty tour guides as we explore the Blues Highway, that iconic stretch from Memphis to New Orleans, filled with rich history and music lore. We’re sharing tips on the coolest spots to visit, like Dockery Farms and the various crossroads, where you can practically feel the music in the air. So, whether you’re a die-hard blues fan or just curious about the tales of the Delta, buckle up! It's gonna be a sweet ride.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Talk with History.I am your host, Scott, here with
my wife and historian, Jen.
Hello.
On this podcast, we give youinsights to our history Inspired
World Travels YouTube channelJourney and examine history through
deeper conversations with thecurious, the explorers and the history
lovers out there. Now, Jen, Inoticed and I forgot to do this on
(00:20):
the last podcast, so I have toapologize to Young Bald guy because
Young Bald Guy gave us a fivestar review on Apple Podcasts. He
said, wonderful. Beenlistening since Jen was interviewed.
The History Unplugged. Sothat's another podcast that you were
on a little while ago. I thinkwe've talked about it. So if there's
any other listeners fromcoming from Jen's appearances on
(00:43):
other podcasts, please, youknow, drop us a review. We've been
getting some more reviews onSpotify as well, so those actually
do help. They really do. Sowe've been getting some more listeners
in downloads every month. Sowe really appreciate that.
Yeah, thank you, young Bald guy.
(01:04):
All right, so we're just gonnakind of jump right into things today.
So we've done a fair amount ofrecent content on the. The kind of
the birth of the blues, orwhat some people would consider the
birth of the blues and morespecifically the Mississippi Delta
and Robert Johnson in thatpart of the country and the whole
(01:26):
kind of history and lore andhow the blues became the devil's
music. But today we're goingto talk about the locations, if you
want to visit some of thesehistoric locations that Robert Johnson
came from and was known for.
Yeah. So we're going to betalking about basically Highway 61,
the Blues highway, which whatI love about the blues is it's such
(01:49):
an American genre. It's anAmerican music. Right. It's growing
in this. They call it thefertile crescent of American music,
this Mississippi Delta areawhere these people have transitioned
from enslavement tosharecropping. And the African American
(02:09):
experience is being played outthrough music and song and lyrics.
And it's amazing what RobertJohnson does with the first rock
and roll really like notes andthat long blues note that he's able
to play with the slide on theglass. But you have all these people
there who are influencing eachother with this music type. And each
(02:31):
one is kind of like buildingon each other. And Robert Johnson
in the Devil's Crossroadsbecomes this legend of this area
because the blues kind of getsynonymous with the devil's music.
So you get this Devil'sCrossroads, you get these legends.
And so we wanted to visitthese locations. And so this podcast
(02:51):
is if you want to visit them.How do you visit them? Where are
you going? And you'll seeconflicting things. When you look
online, Devil's Crossroads,you'll see different areas pop up
and we'll talk about whichthe. The four most popular ones where
they claim their place in thisDevil's Crossroads legend. So just
(03:16):
so we understand, the Blueshighway is Highway 61. It runs from
Memphis to New Orleans.
It's about an hour. We're anhour and a half from us.
Memphis to get to the Blueshighway is. But the Blues highway
goes all the way from Memphisto New Orleans.
Oh, all the way, yeah.
So it's a long highway, andit's synonymous with like, a Route
66. It's kind of like a famousroad in American music. And you'll
(03:38):
hear blues artists, like,refer to it sometimes and stuff in
their songs. And the BluesMuseum is in Clarksdale, which is
one of the towns along theBlues Highway. And then it's. It's
just a very good way for youto travel to these locations as we
talk about. But along it,you're going to see, like, Greenwood,
(04:03):
Leland, where Kermit the Frogis from Vicksburg, Natchez, Baton
Rouge, and New Orleans. Soyou're hitting those Southern towns
along the Mississippi, whichis synonymous with the Delta, because
the Delta is built by theMississippi River. Right. It's the
Mississippi river that'soverflowing into this farmland that's
(04:24):
making this soil so fertile.And so these people are farming this
farmland. They'resharecropping this farmland. And
so this is why the Blueshighway comes, is synonymous with
the Delta.
And they've. Even one of themarkers that we visited, which ended
up being Robert Johnson'sgrave. So we'll talk about that in
a little bit. They. They havelike a whole, like, I think of like
(04:46):
a Delta blues trail, like ablues trail. And so there's. There's
markers, and they've. They'vekind of been very specific about
this, like, all along thishighway for all of this history and
blues that came out of this area.
Yeah. So. And they're allblue. So it's very un. You could
follow the blues markersbecause they're blue historic markers.
(05:09):
Uh, we talk about the originof the blues. I want to stress there's
no specific date that you canclaim for the birth of the blues,
because it was so much of thisinfluencing that's happening between
people that there's no onemoment that it's like, oh, this is
where the blues came. It just.It came out of this area from all
(05:30):
these different artists whoare influencing it. And the blues
note is a bent or flat notethat adds a distinct sound. And then
there's an influence inChicago, the Chicago blues. Because
we talk about the greatmigration from this area. All these
blues singers are going toChicago. So that's another reason
why Chicago blues kind ofbecomes synonymous with the Delta
(05:53):
blues.
And even one of the things wetalked about our previous podcast,
we. We talked about Sinners,the movie, and kind of a lot of the
history behind that. And wetouched on. On this topic a little
bit. But one of theinteresting things was that, you
know, we talk about otherblues musicians. Blues didn't like,
start in the. In the 1930s. Ithad been around for a while now.
(06:15):
I think the distinctive soundstarted becoming more popular and
the music started becomingmore popular in the 30s. But it.
The blues had been been playedand been around for. For a while.
And they even talk about inthe movie. And this is a real life
person, I think his name wasCharlie Patton.
Charlie Patton.
Charlie Patton. And that'sagain another spot that with a blues
(06:35):
marker that mentions his name.We'll talk about here in just a second.
So the blues had been aroundfor quite some time and obviously
born out of kind of differentcultures. Right. But it was. It was
so kind of interesting aswe've really. We've been kind of
doing this little bit ofhistory. It's not. This isn't normal
(06:55):
for us to kind of stay in onevery specific area and one topic
for such a long time. So I'vebeen learning more and more about
it. And it's been reallyinteresting seeing kind of all the
various history and the namesand kind of how it all built up.
And Robert Johnson kind ofended up being one of those focal
points.
Yeah. And like Scott said, itreally starts to be recorded in the
(07:18):
early 30s and on into the late30s. That's when they start to make
their first cuts of thissound. So it's that first recording
of blues music that kind ofgets synonymous with or. But like
Scott said, it had been aroundfor at least three decades before
they start to even record it.So who's Robert Johnson? Just so
(07:42):
we have a quick background. Wealready did a podcast about him,
but he's considered one of thefathers of the blues. The birth of
the blues. The first rock androller, first one to play rock and
roll note. Because he couldplay that long blues note. Two hands
sounded like four hands. Oneguitar sounded like two. He's born
in 1911 in Mississippi diesAugust 16, 1938, at 27 years old.
(08:09):
So a short life, but animpactful life in music. And that
short life also lends itselfto the devil's crossroad legend.
He has two recording sessions.These are Landmark 1936, 1937. You
can listen to his recordingsnow. Um, and the Rock and Roll hall
of Fame describes him as thefirst ever rock star.
(08:32):
And, and there's. There's aninteresting thing, and I don't know
if we mentioned it in ourvideos, but one of the things that
I remember reading about hisrecording sessions, Robert Johnson's
recording sessions, is thesetwo recording sessions. He basically
sat down and if I remembercorrectly, and if you're listening
or if you're watching, pleasecorrect me in the comments or shoot
us an email. But I think herecorded all the songs that he did
(08:55):
essentially in one take, likehe did. One day he sat down and did
a recording session. Bam. Thatwas it. He did. Like, who, you know,
dozens and dozens of songs.The next recording session, a couple
years, one year or one yearlater, same thing, knocks it out
all in one day. Which is ifyou know music at all, that's unheard
(09:16):
of. It's, it's. It's reallycrazy. And speaks to his talent.
Oh, yeah. And how much. Heprobably had been playing that and
doing that. So it just becomesmore easy. So the legend of Robert
Johnson, this legend of theRob, the Devil's Crossroads. Because
very little was known outsideof his. Of his life outside the Mississippi
Delta and the circuit where hespent most of his time, this story
(09:39):
had popped up as legend amongpeople. What we do know for sure
is that Robert Johnson in the1930s, is married to. To a young
Virginia Travis, and she diesin childbirth. And her and the baby
are buried before RobertJohnson even learns of her death.
And from that, he falls awayfrom the normalcies of life. He falls
(10:03):
away from a more conventionallife and starts to play music. And
he finds himself at DochertyDockery Plantation, which is their
blue sign, says Birthplace ofthe Blues, question mark. Because
this plantation kind oflifestyle is 2000 African Americans,
(10:26):
400 families who are basicallyall encompassing on this farmland
with churches and schools andmedical centers and a grocery store.
Community.
It's community. And you'repaid in their money and their commissary,
where you use their money onthe porch Friday nights, Saturday
nights. The owner wanted thepeople to have a good time and be
(10:49):
happy where they were. So heencouraged blues singers to come
and play at his plantationporch. And Robert Johnson finds himself
here in mid-1930, where thelegend is, he was laughed off the
stage by Charley Patton andthese really great blues musicians
because he didn't know how toplay the guitar. And so he gets discouraged
(11:11):
and walks from the plantation.Now, there's different crossroads
that have gained popularity,but essentially what happens is he
walks away past midnight andgoes to the crossroads after midnight,
sits in the middle, playsguitar until the devil approaches
(11:32):
a dark man. And the dark manreaches out for the guitar. And by
Charlie, by Robert Johnsonhanding it back to him. Handing it
to him. He tunes it, plays itand hands it back. And by Robert
Johnson taking it back. Now hecan play it just like the devil,
which is, you know, he'smastered the guitar. And so where
(11:56):
does that legend come from?It's because in 1932, Clarksdale,
where Highway 61 meets Highway49, Robert Johnson walks into a juke
joint and he has mastered theguitar. From the time he's laughed
off the stage at Docherty tothe time he walks into the juke joint
(12:17):
in Clarksdale, a year and ahalf, he has mastered the guitar.
And the people there who knowhim, who've heard about him, who
saw him, who heard thestories, say, how else could he have
done that besides selling hissoul to the devil.
(12:37):
In the locations themselves?And if you guys want to go to locations,
we'll mention the addresseshere, you know, but also we'll have
links to a Google Maps link toany of these locations that we're.
We're talking about,especially the ones Dockery Farms
and the actual Devil'sCrossroads and Clarksdale. But the.
If you want to go visitDockery Farms is actually pretty
cool because not only does ithave kind of the whole set up there
(13:00):
of the old plantation, butthere's an old cotton gin there.
And so you can actually go inand it's like they, they turn this
cotton gin into kind of like apublic open museum. There's a sign
over top and you walk in, youcan press a button and like this
narration will start. Andyou're just walking around inside
of like a super old schoolcotton gin. It was actually really
neat. We didn't feature it toomuch in the video because it didn't
(13:23):
really fit with the story. Butif you want to go visit the location,
you go to Dockery Farms, whichis just down the way from the actual
Devil's Crossroads. Well, thesupposed Devil's crossroads, yes.
So Dockery Farms is where youprobably want to start. If you're
going to start at Clarksdale,that's the intersection of 61 and
49, head south and it's 49west, and 278 is Dockerty Farms.
(13:46):
And that's where you're goingto want to start because this is
where the story starts, right?And so from here, this is where it
gets kind of dicey about whichone is the Devil's Crossroads. And
it's funny because people arelike, well, this is the real one.
And I'm like, is that the realone where the devil actually met
him? So there's some that arekind of more plausible and there's
(14:07):
some that are just kind of.They claim it because it's popular
to claim it, but we don'treally think that's what happened
to Robert Johnson.
We're trying to deal, in fact.
So we'll tell you what wereally think, what really happens.
Robert Johnson. But we'regoing to tell you how to get to these
three crossroads. If you'rethinking of visiting the Devil's
Crossroads, the one that hasthe most validity is right off of
(14:31):
Docherty Farm. So if youimagine Robert Johnson's left off
the porch, he walks towardsthe railroad, he's walking towards
the Mississippi, he's walkingtowards Cleveland, Mississippi. And
he passes a church on hisleft. And he gets to the first crossroads,
and that's Lusk Road andWalker Road. And that's where we
film most of our footage frombecause they're too dirt roads in
(14:53):
the middle of nowhere. And itleads yourself to feel that eerie
feeling if you were there atmidnight. It has a pretty big crossroads
space that you could actuallysit and you could see if you were
alone and making a deal withthe occult. Like, this could be a
place where someone couldvisit you in the fog, in the night.
And, and, and it was fun to govisit, like in. And obviously I'll.
(15:16):
I'll link our video downbelow, but, you know, I brought the
drone out because we're outsmack in the middle of nowhere, right?
It, it really. There's nothingmuch around. There's this old Dockery
farm, which isn't really athing anymore other than just kind
of, I think, kept up by thearea, by people in the area, because
they know it's still a tourist draw.
It's very historic, too. Imean, plantation life, this sharecropping
(15:38):
life was a very historic partof the Delta after enslavement. And
it's very neat to see howAfrican Americans were sustained
in this kind of farminglifestyle. And so they have a gin,
an old cotton gin that you cansee See how it worked and how big
it was.
They have like a video thatyou can play in there. You just go
in and you press the button.It'll play like a little video. And
(15:59):
you know, as long as you'renot climbing on the old rusty equipment,
you just staying on the path,it's pretty safe.
It's pretty cool. I definitelyrecommend it. So that's the. I say
the more legit crossroads.When you see people go visit the
crossroads, that's like themore legit one. Now there's Rosedale
Crossroads, which fromCleveland, if he were to get on the
(16:20):
train. So Dockery is rightoutside of Cleveland, Mississippi.
If he were to get on thetrain, Rosedale takes you to the
Mississippi River. It wouldtake you. So if he's trying to get
away. Right. That would takeyou by train to the river. So Rosedale
also claims a crossroadsthere. Their crossroads is paved.
It's the intersection ofHighway 1 and 8. They have a blue
(16:43):
sign. And its reputation kindof gathers strength because when
Eric Clapton recordedTraveling the Crossroad Blues, which
was a Robert Johnson song, he.He injects Rosedale in there. So
it's not originally was notpart of the song. He puts it in there.
(17:03):
But. But if you can imagine,he's walking dejected from. Doherty
gets on the train and that'sthe first crossroads he will hit.
Like I said, there's a bluesign there and it's paved, but it's
8 and 1. Now south of there isthe Beulah crossroads. And you're
probably like, really? Allthese crossroads now, we.
(17:24):
We only visited the one inour. In our video. So these other
two, Rosedale and Beulah. Wedid. We didn't get a chance to go
to.
But Beulah might be famous ifyou know the 1986 movie Crossroads.
Yeah. With Ralph Macchio.
Without Macchio.
So hold on. I just watchedthe, like the guitar battle scene.
Look it up on YouTube. I'llput a link down to it. Look down
(17:45):
to it. The guitar. Like he'slike battling some other guitarist.
It's amazing. It's so muchfun. I need to watch that movie.
So that's the assumption. He'sagain traveling from Dougherty Plantation.
He's walking west towards theMississippi and towards the railroad.
And instead of going toRosedale, he goes a little south.
(18:08):
And that's from the movie.It's another two dirt roads that
meet in a crossroad. It's alittle bit more rural. It has like
an old dead tree. So it looksa little Bit more eerie. But that's
like again from the movie, alonesome place around that general
area where these three kind ofcrossroads claim. Because of being
(18:30):
laughed off of the porch ofDocherty Plantation. So they're all
kind of triangulate aroundthat. The famous crossroads in Clarksdale
where people take theirphotographs. And it has the two guitars
because it's the. It is theintersection of The Blues Highway
61 and 49 is because that'swhere Robert Johnson walks back into
(18:53):
the juke joint in 1932 and canmaster the guitar. So they don't
really think that's where hemet the devil. It takes that legend
with it because that's wherehe returns. But it wouldn't be the
place that he actually had metthe devil because it's not close
to where the story goes. Hewas laughed off of the. The porch
(19:15):
of the plantation.
Yeah. And that. That is one ofthe locations that we visited in
Clarksdale. And that wasactually relatively easy to find.
I think there's like a littlebarbecue place that's. That's right
there. And then just down theway, right. Is the Ground Zero Blues
Club. And this one I thoughtwas really cool. I was really bummed
it wasn't open because I wouldlove to have gone in there. I don't
know if our kids would havebeen allowed in because it looks
(19:36):
pretty dirty. But it lookssuper cool. And this Ground Zero
Blues Club is owned by MorganFreeman, or at least he's one of
the owners. And it looks likeit's only open certain times. You
have to look it up. So ifyou're interested in going. But they
still play like legit blues.They have little mini festivals there
and all that stuff. So if youwant to work that into it, check
(19:57):
it out ahead of time to makesure you know when the hours are.
Because they're not open evenlike five days a week. It's like
four days a week. You know,sometimes on the weekend it's. It's.
It's got weird hours. So makesure you check that ahead of time.
Yeah, it's. It's like a jukejoint. It's going to be like Wednesday
nights, Thursday night, Fridaynight, Saturday night. It's kind
of like that, like wherepeople would be listening to blues
at night. I think it's openmore during the tourist seasons.
(20:21):
It has murals of RobertJohnson on the outside.
Yeah, it's neat.
Of an old juke joint in theBayute. Like what that would look
like. But it's super neat. Andeven if you Just get to sit on the
porch like we did in thevideo. It's super, like, historically,
you know, historical andstuff. You feel like you're in the.
Immersed in the Delta blues.So it's super cool to go there. So
(20:43):
I'll give some historical factof what really happened to Robert
Johnson, and then we'll talkabout visiting his grave. Like, we
actually went to the locationof his more legitimate grave because
there's three sites of histhat claim his grave site, and we
went to the one that has themost primary source documentation.
(21:05):
But they do believe thatRobert Johnson was laughed off of
the porch. We do. They dobelieve that did happen. But he makes
it back down to where he wasborn in Hazelhurst, Mississippi.
And when he gets back to hisbirthplace, he befriends an Ike Zimmerman,
who is also a guitarist. AndIke Zimmerman really takes him under
(21:28):
his wing. He lives with himfor over a year. And Iken and Robert
go to the Beauregard Cemetery,which is the cemetery outside of
Hazlehurst, Mississippi. Andthey play guitar on the tombstones
from like midnight to three inthe morning every night because no
one bothers them. And Ike willtell him, make a mistake, no one
(21:51):
will care.
Yeah. So the legend kind of isanother. Some more seasoning to that
legend.
Yeah, it gets thatsupernatural story because it's a
cemetery.
Right.
And they're playing to thesetombstones after midnight. And they
do this all year, which, ifyou live in Mississippi, in the Delta,
a cemetery at midnight iscooler, temperature wise.
(22:13):
I understand why they do it atnight time instead of during the
day.
Yeah. So it makes sense. Itmakes sense. And Ike Zimmerman eventually
will find the Lord and be bornagain and move to California. And
he kind of, I wouldn't sayrejects his musical background, but
he doesn't talk about it thatmuch. And so that's why he doesn't
claim this. This tie to RobertJohnson and his. His part in making
(22:36):
Robert Johnson the guitaristthat he was. But as Robert Johnson
makes his way back toClarksdale a year and a half later
in 1932, this is why he walksinto the juke joint and has mastered
the guitar in a year and ahalf. It's because he has played
it constantly for a year and ahalf with a good teacher and. And
(22:57):
really has learned to hone hiscraft. So if you want to go to those
sites, the. The. The cemeteryis still there for you. And I think
there is one tombstone thatreally claims to be the Robert Johnson
one that he sat on. What'sneat, though, is going to when we
went to visit his grave.
That was neat one, becauseit's another stop on this kind of
(23:18):
blues trail. So there's ahistoric marker there with Robert
Johnson's name. It's blue.I'll put a picture up of it. But
also there's a little churchright there. And then it's a legitimate
cemetery. Gravestones andstuff like that. But it's right in
this super historic area.Right. Like we've done Emmett Till
content a long time ago. Andit's not far from Money, Mississippi,
which is where a lot of EmmettTill stuff happened. You know, not
(23:40):
far from Greenwood, which isbig. You know, for a period of time,
I was considered the cottoncapital of the world. So it was.
It was neat to be in thisarea. And then here is this blues
legend, the first face you seeif you walk into the Rock and Roll
hall of Fame, as you mentionedearlier. And here's this guy's grave.
Yeah, it's like in the middleof American history. Right. Because
(24:02):
we've done Emmett Till andBryant Grocery, and it was right
down the same road as BryantGrocery. It's on the same road. It
was just. It blew my mind. Soit's 15 miles outside of Greenwood.
And we even looked up theaddress. It's like Main road.
(24:22):
Yeah, it's like main. Mainstreet, which. I don't know how it's
called Main street, becauseit's. It's kind of like a country
highway.
Yeah, it's. It's veryinteresting, but I think. What is
that street? It's. It'slafleur County. So it's Little Zion.
Little Zion Missionary BaptistChurch. There it is. So if you're
(24:43):
visiting, I mean, it's rightalong the little Tallahatchie river,
like it is in this heart of,like you said, the cap. The cotton
capital of the world. You getthe ode to Billy Joe from the Tallahatchie
Bridge. It's right there. Andthen you're getting Emmett Till,
where he walks into BryantGrocery, which is right down the
road. And we went to thischurch, and it was the one place
we went to that other visitorswere there to see Robert Johnson.
(25:07):
There was probably like threeor four cars that pulled up.
Nobody pulled up while we wereat the. The crossroads at the dirt
roads. No one pulled up whenwe were at the plantation, but people
pulled up to visit RobertJohnson's grave.
Yeah, I. I was surprised. And.And I can't kind of say this enough
because it's in the middle ofnowhere. I mean, it's. It's not too
(25:28):
far outside of Greenwood. AndGreenwood's, like, that's smaller
city, but there's not much inGreenwood. Right. And. And this one
couple that came up, I mean,they were on some, like, big old
road trip that they weredoing, and they went out of their
way to come and visit RobertJohnson's grave.
Yes. And so he had beenplaying for a few weeks at a juke
joint. It's called ThreeForks. It was outside of Greenwood,
(25:50):
Mississippi. And the theory isthat he made a jealous husband mad.
He was flirting with a married woman.
He.
He made the husband mad thatthe husband poisoned his whiskey.
And the whiskey label had beenopened like the seal was broken.
And a friend warned him that,hey, that seal is broken. I wouldn't
drink that. But he spent $7for his bottle of whiskey, and he
(26:12):
was going to drink it. And, Imean, he gets agony, pain, stomach
pain, and he drinks this onAugust 13th. He dies August 16th.
So three days. And of thethree possible burial locations,
this one has research from asister. People have claimed to have
been there when the grave wasdug. And he was buried under a pecan
(26:35):
tree in the cemetery there. Soa marker has been put in place for
where they believe that'sclose by. And you can tell people
make like a mecca to himbecause there's shot glasses where
people would drink shots, beercans, beer cans, guitar picks. People
come out there and play forhim. And we left an American flag
(26:56):
because of his impact onAmerican history. But you could tell
people go out there to payhomage to Robert Johnson and his
impact on the blues andAmerican history. So if you're looking
for any of these locations,these are the ones that are really
synonymous with RobertJohnson, Devil's Crossroads, and.
And the birth of the DeltaBlues. But there's so much more out
(27:19):
there for you if you want togo along the blues highway and see
all of these other musical influencers.
Yeah, it was. It was superfun. And, you know, I'd call it family
friendly because you're justkind of visiting these kind of random
spots, you know, and you'renot in the middle of any big city
or anything like that. Butagain, we'll have, you know, links
to Google Maps, you know, so Iactually save the locations for all
(27:41):
of the locations that we goto. I save them in a Google Maps.
If you click on the link,it'll show you kind of all of these
locations saved together. Soyou can. You can click on that. You
can watch our video if youwant to check it out. And if you
don't have the chance totravel out there. Like, we actually
videoed from all of. From themajority of these locations. And
that was actually one of my.One of my favorite videos that we've
made in quite some time.Really, really fun. You know, it's
(28:03):
just such a fun story. So weencourage you to kind of get out
there to go see it becausethat's what we do here on Walk With
History and then on Talk withHistory, we tell you, hopefully you're
listening to this podcast onyour way to the Devil's Crossroads.
Yeah.
So we hope you guys enjoy thatand I guess we'll talk to you next
time.
Yeah. Thank you.
(28:26):
This has been a Walk withHistory production. Talk With History
is created and hosted by me,Scott Benny. Episode researched by
Jennifer Benny. Check out theshow notes for links and references
mentioned in this episode.Talk with History is supported by
ourfans@thehistoryroadtrip.com our eternal
thanks go out to thoseproviding funding to help keep us
going. Thank you to DougMcLiberty, Larry Myers, Patrick Benny,
(28:50):
Gale Cooper, Christy Coates,and Calvin Gifford. Make sure you
hit that follow button in thatpodcast player and we'll talk to
you next.
Welcome to Talk with History.I am your host, Scott, here with
my wife and historian, Jen.
Hello.
On this podcast, we give youinsights to our history Inspired
World Travels YouTube channelJourney and examine history through
deeper conversations with thecurious, the explorers and the history
lovers out there. Now, Jen, Inoticed and I forgot to do this on
(00:20):
the last podcast, so I have toapologize to Young Bald guy because
Young Bald Guy gave us a fivestar review on Apple Podcasts. He
said, wonderful. Beenlistening since Jen was interviewed.
The History Unplugged. Sothat's another podcast that you were
on a little while ago. I thinkwe've talked about it. So if there's
any other listeners fromcoming from Jen's appearances on
(00:43):
other podcasts, please, youknow, drop us a review. We've been
getting some more reviews onSpotify as well, so those actually
do help. They really do. Sowe've been getting some more listeners
in downloads every month. Sowe really appreciate that.
Yeah, thank you, young Bald guy.
(01:04):
All right, so we're just gonnakind of jump right into things today.
So we've done a fair amount ofrecent content on the. The kind of
the birth of the blues, orwhat some people would consider the
birth of the blues and morespecifically the Mississippi Delta
and Robert Johnson in thatpart of the country and the whole
(01:26):
kind of history and lore andhow the blues became the devil's
music. But today we're goingto talk about the locations, if you
want to visit some of thesehistoric locations that Robert Johnson
came from and was known for.
Yeah. So we're going to betalking about basically Highway 61,
the Blues highway, which whatI love about the blues is it's such
(01:49):
an American genre. It's anAmerican music. Right. It's growing
in this. They call it thefertile crescent of American music,
this Mississippi Delta areawhere these people have transitioned
from enslavement tosharecropping. And the African American
(02:09):
experience is being played outthrough music and song and lyrics.
And it's amazing what RobertJohnson does with the first rock
and roll really like notes andthat long blues note that he's able
to play with the slide on theglass. But you have all these people
there who are influencing eachother with this music type. And each
(02:31):
one is kind of like buildingon each other. And Robert Johnson
in the Devil's Crossroadsbecomes this legend of this area
because the blues kind of getsynonymous with the devil's music.
So you get this Devil'sCrossroads, you get these legends.
And so we wanted to visitthese locations. And so this podcast
(02:51):
is if you want to visit them.How do you visit them? Where are
you going? And you'll seeconflicting things. When you look
online, Devil's Crossroads,you'll see different areas pop up
and we'll talk about whichthe. The four most popular ones where
they claim their place in thisDevil's Crossroads legend. So just
(03:16):
so we understand, the Blueshighway is Highway 61. It runs from
Memphis to New Orleans.
It's about an hour. We're anhour and a half from us.
Memphis to get to the Blueshighway is. But the Blues highway
goes all the way from Memphisto New Orleans.
Oh, all the way, yeah.
So it's a long highway, andit's synonymous with like, a Route
66. It's kind of like a famousroad in American music. And you'll
(03:38):
hear blues artists, like,refer to it sometimes and stuff in
their songs. And the BluesMuseum is in Clarksdale, which is
one of the towns along theBlues Highway. And then it's. It's
just a very good way for youto travel to these locations as we
talk about. But along it,you're going to see, like, Greenwood,
(04:03):
Leland, where Kermit the Frogis from Vicksburg, Natchez, Baton
Rouge, and New Orleans. Soyou're hitting those Southern towns
along the Mississippi, whichis synonymous with the Delta, because
the Delta is built by theMississippi River. Right. It's the
Mississippi river that'soverflowing into this farmland that's
(04:24):
making this soil so fertile.And so these people are farming this
farmland. They'resharecropping this farmland. And
so this is why the Blueshighway comes, is synonymous with
the Delta.
And they've. Even one of themarkers that we visited, which ended
up being Robert Johnson'sgrave. So we'll talk about that in
a little bit. They. They havelike a whole, like, I think of like
(04:46):
a Delta blues trail, like ablues trail. And so there's. There's
markers, and they've. They'vekind of been very specific about
this, like, all along thishighway for all of this history and
blues that came out of this area.
Yeah. So. And they're allblue. So it's very un. You could
follow the blues markersbecause they're blue historic markers.
(05:09):
Uh, we talk about the originof the blues. I want to stress there's
no specific date that you canclaim for the birth of the blues,
because it was so much of thisinfluencing that's happening between
people that there's no onemoment that it's like, oh, this is
where the blues came. It just.It came out of this area from all
(05:30):
these different artists whoare influencing it. And the blues
note is a bent or flat notethat adds a distinct sound. And then
there's an influence inChicago, the Chicago blues. Because
we talk about the greatmigration from this area. All these
blues singers are going toChicago. So that's another reason
why Chicago blues kind ofbecomes synonymous with the Delta
(05:53):
blues.
And even one of the things wetalked about our previous podcast,
we. We talked about Sinners,the movie, and kind of a lot of the
history behind that. And wetouched on. On this topic a little
bit. But one of theinteresting things was that, you
know, we talk about otherblues musicians. Blues didn't like,
start in the. In the 1930s. Ithad been around for a while now.
(06:15):
I think the distinctive soundstarted becoming more popular and
the music started becomingmore popular in the 30s. But it.
The blues had been been playedand been around for. For a while.
And they even talk about inthe movie. And this is a real life
person, I think his name wasCharlie Patton.
Charlie Patton.
Charlie Patton. And that'sagain another spot that with a blues
(06:35):
marker that mentions his name.We'll talk about here in just a second.
So the blues had been aroundfor quite some time and obviously
born out of kind of differentcultures. Right. But it was. It was
so kind of interesting aswe've really. We've been kind of
doing this little bit ofhistory. It's not. This isn't normal
(06:55):
for us to kind of stay in onevery specific area and one topic
for such a long time. So I'vebeen learning more and more about
it. And it's been reallyinteresting seeing kind of all the
various history and the namesand kind of how it all built up.
And Robert Johnson kind ofended up being one of those focal
points.
Yeah. And like Scott said, itreally starts to be recorded in the
(07:18):
early 30s and on into the late30s. That's when they start to make
their first cuts of thissound. So it's that first recording
of blues music that kind ofgets synonymous with or. But like
Scott said, it had been aroundfor at least three decades before
they start to even record it.So who's Robert Johnson? Just so
(07:42):
we have a quick background. Wealready did a podcast about him,
but he's considered one of thefathers of the blues. The birth of
the blues. The first rock androller, first one to play rock and
roll note. Because he couldplay that long blues note. Two hands
sounded like four hands. Oneguitar sounded like two. He's born
in 1911 in Mississippi diesAugust 16, 1938, at 27 years old.
(08:09):
So a short life, but animpactful life in music. And that
short life also lends itselfto the devil's crossroad legend.
He has two recording sessions.These are Landmark 1936, 1937. You
can listen to his recordingsnow. Um, and the Rock and Roll hall
of Fame describes him as thefirst ever rock star.
(08:32):
And, and there's. There's aninteresting thing, and I don't know
if we mentioned it in ourvideos, but one of the things that
I remember reading about hisrecording sessions, Robert Johnson's
recording sessions, is thesetwo recording sessions. He basically
sat down and if I remembercorrectly, and if you're listening
or if you're watching, pleasecorrect me in the comments or shoot
us an email. But I think herecorded all the songs that he did
(08:55):
essentially in one take, likehe did. One day he sat down and did
a recording session. Bam. Thatwas it. He did. Like, who, you know,
dozens and dozens of songs.The next recording session, a couple
years, one year or one yearlater, same thing, knocks it out
all in one day. Which is ifyou know music at all, that's unheard
(09:16):
of. It's, it's. It's reallycrazy. And speaks to his talent.
Oh, yeah. And how much. Heprobably had been playing that and
doing that. So it just becomesmore easy. So the legend of Robert
Johnson, this legend of theRob, the Devil's Crossroads. Because
very little was known outsideof his. Of his life outside the Mississippi
Delta and the circuit where hespent most of his time, this story
(09:39):
had popped up as legend amongpeople. What we do know for sure
is that Robert Johnson in the1930s, is married to. To a young
Virginia Travis, and she diesin childbirth. And her and the baby
are buried before RobertJohnson even learns of her death.
And from that, he falls awayfrom the normalcies of life. He falls
(10:03):
away from a more conventionallife and starts to play music. And
he finds himself at DochertyDockery Plantation, which is their
blue sign, says Birthplace ofthe Blues, question mark. Because
this plantation kind oflifestyle is 2000 African Americans,
(10:26):
400 families who are basicallyall encompassing on this farmland
with churches and schools andmedical centers and a grocery store.
Community.
It's community. And you'repaid in their money and their commissary,
where you use their money onthe porch Friday nights, Saturday
nights. The owner wanted thepeople to have a good time and be
(10:49):
happy where they were. So heencouraged blues singers to come
and play at his plantationporch. And Robert Johnson finds himself
here in mid-1930, where thelegend is, he was laughed off the
stage by Charley Patton andthese really great blues musicians
because he didn't know how toplay the guitar. And so he gets discouraged
(11:11):
and walks from the plantation.Now, there's different crossroads
that have gained popularity,but essentially what happens is he
walks away past midnight andgoes to the crossroads after midnight,
sits in the middle, playsguitar until the devil approaches
(11:32):
a dark man. And the dark manreaches out for the guitar. And by
Charlie, by Robert Johnsonhanding it back to him. Handing it
to him. He tunes it, plays itand hands it back. And by Robert
Johnson taking it back. Now hecan play it just like the devil,
which is, you know, he'smastered the guitar. And so where
(11:56):
does that legend come from?It's because in 1932, Clarksdale,
where Highway 61 meets Highway49, Robert Johnson walks into a juke
joint and he has mastered theguitar. From the time he's laughed
off the stage at Docherty tothe time he walks into the juke joint
(12:17):
in Clarksdale, a year and ahalf, he has mastered the guitar.
And the people there who knowhim, who've heard about him, who
saw him, who heard thestories, say, how else could he have
done that besides selling hissoul to the devil.
(12:37):
In the locations themselves?And if you guys want to go to locations,
we'll mention the addresseshere, you know, but also we'll have
links to a Google Maps link toany of these locations that we're.
We're talking about,especially the ones Dockery Farms
and the actual Devil'sCrossroads and Clarksdale. But the.
If you want to go visitDockery Farms is actually pretty
cool because not only does ithave kind of the whole set up there
(13:00):
of the old plantation, butthere's an old cotton gin there.
And so you can actually go inand it's like they, they turn this
cotton gin into kind of like apublic open museum. There's a sign
over top and you walk in, youcan press a button and like this
narration will start. Andyou're just walking around inside
of like a super old schoolcotton gin. It was actually really
neat. We didn't feature it toomuch in the video because it didn't
(13:23):
really fit with the story. Butif you want to go visit the location,
you go to Dockery Farms, whichis just down the way from the actual
Devil's Crossroads. Well, thesupposed Devil's crossroads, yes.
So Dockery Farms is where youprobably want to start. If you're
going to start at Clarksdale,that's the intersection of 61 and
49, head south and it's 49west, and 278 is Dockerty Farms.
(13:46):
And that's where you're goingto want to start because this is
where the story starts, right?And so from here, this is where it
gets kind of dicey about whichone is the Devil's Crossroads. And
it's funny because people arelike, well, this is the real one.
And I'm like, is that the realone where the devil actually met
him? So there's some that arekind of more plausible and there's
(14:07):
some that are just kind of.They claim it because it's popular
to claim it, but we don'treally think that's what happened
to Robert Johnson.
We're trying to deal, in fact.
So we'll tell you what wereally think, what really happens.
Robert Johnson. But we'regoing to tell you how to get to these
three crossroads. If you'rethinking of visiting the Devil's
Crossroads, the one that hasthe most validity is right off of
(14:31):
Docherty Farm. So if youimagine Robert Johnson's left off
the porch, he walks towardsthe railroad, he's walking towards
the Mississippi, he's walkingtowards Cleveland, Mississippi. And
he passes a church on hisleft. And he gets to the first crossroads,
and that's Lusk Road andWalker Road. And that's where we
film most of our footage frombecause they're too dirt roads in
(14:53):
the middle of nowhere. And itleads yourself to feel that eerie
feeling if you were there atmidnight. It has a pretty big crossroads
space that you could actuallysit and you could see if you were
alone and making a deal withthe occult. Like, this could be a
place where someone couldvisit you in the fog, in the night.
And, and, and it was fun to govisit, like in. And obviously I'll.
(15:16):
I'll link our video downbelow, but, you know, I brought the
drone out because we're outsmack in the middle of nowhere, right?
It, it really. There's nothingmuch around. There's this old Dockery
farm, which isn't really athing anymore other than just kind
of, I think, kept up by thearea, by people in the area, because
they know it's still a tourist draw.
It's very historic, too. Imean, plantation life, this sharecropping
(15:38):
life was a very historic partof the Delta after enslavement. And
it's very neat to see howAfrican Americans were sustained
in this kind of farminglifestyle. And so they have a gin,
an old cotton gin that you cansee See how it worked and how big
it was.
They have like a video thatyou can play in there. You just go
in and you press the button.It'll play like a little video. And
(15:59):
you know, as long as you'renot climbing on the old rusty equipment,
you just staying on the path,it's pretty safe.
It's pretty cool. I definitelyrecommend it. So that's the. I say
the more legit crossroads.When you see people go visit the
crossroads, that's like themore legit one. Now there's Rosedale
Crossroads, which fromCleveland, if he were to get on the
(16:20):
train. So Dockery is rightoutside of Cleveland, Mississippi.
If he were to get on thetrain, Rosedale takes you to the
Mississippi River. It wouldtake you. So if he's trying to get
away. Right. That would takeyou by train to the river. So Rosedale
also claims a crossroadsthere. Their crossroads is paved.
It's the intersection ofHighway 1 and 8. They have a blue
(16:43):
sign. And its reputation kindof gathers strength because when
Eric Clapton recordedTraveling the Crossroad Blues, which
was a Robert Johnson song, he.He injects Rosedale in there. So
it's not originally was notpart of the song. He puts it in there.
(17:03):
But. But if you can imagine,he's walking dejected from. Doherty
gets on the train and that'sthe first crossroads he will hit.
Like I said, there's a bluesign there and it's paved, but it's
8 and 1. Now south of there isthe Beulah crossroads. And you're
probably like, really? Allthese crossroads now, we.
(17:24):
We only visited the one inour. In our video. So these other
two, Rosedale and Beulah. Wedid. We didn't get a chance to go
to.
But Beulah might be famous ifyou know the 1986 movie Crossroads.
Yeah. With Ralph Macchio.
Without Macchio.
So hold on. I just watchedthe, like the guitar battle scene.
Look it up on YouTube. I'llput a link down to it. Look down
(17:45):
to it. The guitar. Like he'slike battling some other guitarist.
It's amazing. It's so muchfun. I need to watch that movie.
So that's the assumption. He'sagain traveling from Dougherty Plantation.
He's walking west towards theMississippi and towards the railroad.
And instead of going toRosedale, he goes a little south.
(18:08):
And that's from the movie.It's another two dirt roads that
meet in a crossroad. It's alittle bit more rural. It has like
an old dead tree. So it looksa little Bit more eerie. But that's
like again from the movie, alonesome place around that general
area where these three kind ofcrossroads claim. Because of being
(18:30):
laughed off of the porch ofDocherty Plantation. So they're all
kind of triangulate aroundthat. The famous crossroads in Clarksdale
where people take theirphotographs. And it has the two guitars
because it's the. It is theintersection of The Blues Highway
61 and 49 is because that'swhere Robert Johnson walks back into
(18:53):
the juke joint in 1932 and canmaster the guitar. So they don't
really think that's where hemet the devil. It takes that legend
with it because that's wherehe returns. But it wouldn't be the
place that he actually had metthe devil because it's not close
to where the story goes. Hewas laughed off of the. The porch
(19:15):
of the plantation.
Yeah. And that. That is one ofthe locations that we visited in
Clarksdale. And that wasactually relatively easy to find.
I think there's like a littlebarbecue place that's. That's right
there. And then just down theway, right. Is the Ground Zero Blues
Club. And this one I thoughtwas really cool. I was really bummed
it wasn't open because I wouldlove to have gone in there. I don't
know if our kids would havebeen allowed in because it looks
(19:36):
pretty dirty. But it lookssuper cool. And this Ground Zero
Blues Club is owned by MorganFreeman, or at least he's one of
the owners. And it looks likeit's only open certain times. You
have to look it up. So ifyou're interested in going. But they
still play like legit blues.They have little mini festivals there
and all that stuff. So if youwant to work that into it, check
(19:57):
it out ahead of time to makesure you know when the hours are.
Because they're not open evenlike five days a week. It's like
four days a week. You know,sometimes on the weekend it's. It's.
It's got weird hours. So makesure you check that ahead of time.
Yeah, it's. It's like a jukejoint. It's going to be like Wednesday
nights, Thursday night, Fridaynight, Saturday night. It's kind
of like that, like wherepeople would be listening to blues
at night. I think it's openmore during the tourist seasons.
(20:21):
It has murals of RobertJohnson on the outside.
Yeah, it's neat.
Of an old juke joint in theBayute. Like what that would look
like. But it's super neat. Andeven if you Just get to sit on the
porch like we did in thevideo. It's super, like, historically,
you know, historical andstuff. You feel like you're in the.
Immersed in the Delta blues.So it's super cool to go there. So
(20:43):
I'll give some historical factof what really happened to Robert
Johnson, and then we'll talkabout visiting his grave. Like, we
actually went to the locationof his more legitimate grave because
there's three sites of histhat claim his grave site, and we
went to the one that has themost primary source documentation.
(21:05):
But they do believe thatRobert Johnson was laughed off of
the porch. We do. They dobelieve that did happen. But he makes
it back down to where he wasborn in Hazelhurst, Mississippi.
And when he gets back to hisbirthplace, he befriends an Ike Zimmerman,
who is also a guitarist. AndIke Zimmerman really takes him under
(21:28):
his wing. He lives with himfor over a year. And Iken and Robert
go to the Beauregard Cemetery,which is the cemetery outside of
Hazlehurst, Mississippi. Andthey play guitar on the tombstones
from like midnight to three inthe morning every night because no
one bothers them. And Ike willtell him, make a mistake, no one
(21:51):
will care.
Yeah. So the legend kind of isanother. Some more seasoning to that
legend.
Yeah, it gets thatsupernatural story because it's a
cemetery.
Right.
And they're playing to thesetombstones after midnight. And they
do this all year, which, ifyou live in Mississippi, in the Delta,
a cemetery at midnight iscooler, temperature wise.
(22:13):
I understand why they do it atnight time instead of during the
day.
Yeah. So it makes sense. Itmakes sense. And Ike Zimmerman eventually
will find the Lord and be bornagain and move to California. And
he kind of, I wouldn't sayrejects his musical background, but
he doesn't talk about it thatmuch. And so that's why he doesn't
claim this. This tie to RobertJohnson and his. His part in making
(22:36):
Robert Johnson the guitaristthat he was. But as Robert Johnson
makes his way back toClarksdale a year and a half later
in 1932, this is why he walksinto the juke joint and has mastered
the guitar in a year and ahalf. It's because he has played
it constantly for a year and ahalf with a good teacher and. And
(22:57):
really has learned to hone hiscraft. So if you want to go to those
sites, the. The. The cemeteryis still there for you. And I think
there is one tombstone thatreally claims to be the Robert Johnson
one that he sat on. What'sneat, though, is going to when we
went to visit his grave.
That was neat one, becauseit's another stop on this kind of
(23:18):
blues trail. So there's ahistoric marker there with Robert
Johnson's name. It's blue.I'll put a picture up of it. But
also there's a little churchright there. And then it's a legitimate
cemetery. Gravestones andstuff like that. But it's right in
this super historic area.Right. Like we've done Emmett Till
content a long time ago. Andit's not far from Money, Mississippi,
which is where a lot of EmmettTill stuff happened. You know, not
(23:40):
far from Greenwood, which isbig. You know, for a period of time,
I was considered the cottoncapital of the world. So it was.
It was neat to be in thisarea. And then here is this blues
legend, the first face you seeif you walk into the Rock and Roll
hall of Fame, as you mentionedearlier. And here's this guy's grave.
Yeah, it's like in the middleof American history. Right. Because
(24:02):
we've done Emmett Till andBryant Grocery, and it was right
down the same road as BryantGrocery. It's on the same road. It
was just. It blew my mind. Soit's 15 miles outside of Greenwood.
And we even looked up theaddress. It's like Main road.
(24:22):
Yeah, it's like main. Mainstreet, which. I don't know how it's
called Main street, becauseit's. It's kind of like a country
highway.
Yeah, it's. It's veryinteresting, but I think. What is
that street? It's. It'slafleur County. So it's Little Zion.
Little Zion Missionary BaptistChurch. There it is. So if you're
(24:43):
visiting, I mean, it's rightalong the little Tallahatchie river,
like it is in this heart of,like you said, the cap. The cotton
capital of the world. You getthe ode to Billy Joe from the Tallahatchie
Bridge. It's right there. Andthen you're getting Emmett Till,
where he walks into BryantGrocery, which is right down the
road. And we went to thischurch, and it was the one place
we went to that other visitorswere there to see Robert Johnson.
(25:07):
There was probably like threeor four cars that pulled up.
Nobody pulled up while we wereat the. The crossroads at the dirt
roads. No one pulled up whenwe were at the plantation, but people
pulled up to visit RobertJohnson's grave.
Yeah, I. I was surprised. And.And I can't kind of say this enough
because it's in the middle ofnowhere. I mean, it's. It's not too
(25:28):
far outside of Greenwood. AndGreenwood's, like, that's smaller
city, but there's not much inGreenwood. Right. And. And this one
couple that came up, I mean,they were on some, like, big old
road trip that they weredoing, and they went out of their
way to come and visit RobertJohnson's grave.
Yes. And so he had beenplaying for a few weeks at a juke
joint. It's called ThreeForks. It was outside of Greenwood,
(25:50):
Mississippi. And the theory isthat he made a jealous husband mad.
He was flirting with a married woman.
He.
He made the husband mad thatthe husband poisoned his whiskey.
And the whiskey label had beenopened like the seal was broken.
And a friend warned him that,hey, that seal is broken. I wouldn't
drink that. But he spent $7for his bottle of whiskey, and he
(26:12):
was going to drink it. And, Imean, he gets agony, pain, stomach
pain, and he drinks this onAugust 13th. He dies August 16th.
So three days. And of thethree possible burial locations,
this one has research from asister. People have claimed to have
been there when the grave wasdug. And he was buried under a pecan
(26:35):
tree in the cemetery there. Soa marker has been put in place for
where they believe that'sclose by. And you can tell people
make like a mecca to himbecause there's shot glasses where
people would drink shots, beercans, beer cans, guitar picks. People
come out there and play forhim. And we left an American flag
(26:56):
because of his impact onAmerican history. But you could tell
people go out there to payhomage to Robert Johnson and his
impact on the blues andAmerican history. So if you're looking
for any of these locations,these are the ones that are really
synonymous with RobertJohnson, Devil's Crossroads, and.
And the birth of the DeltaBlues. But there's so much more out
(27:19):
there for you if you want togo along the blues highway and see
all of these other musical influencers.
Yeah, it was. It was superfun. And, you know, I'd call it family
friendly because you're justkind of visiting these kind of random
spots, you know, and you'renot in the middle of any big city
or anything like that. Butagain, we'll have, you know, links
to Google Maps, you know, so Iactually save the locations for all
(27:41):
of the locations that we goto. I save them in a Google Maps.
If you click on the link,it'll show you kind of all of these
locations saved together. Soyou can. You can click on that. You
can watch our video if youwant to check it out. And if you
don't have the chance totravel out there. Like, we actually
videoed from all of. From themajority of these locations. And
that was actually one of my.One of my favorite videos that we've
made in quite some time.Really, really fun. You know, it's
(28:03):
just such a fun story. So weencourage you to kind of get out
there to go see it becausethat's what we do here on Walk With
History and then on Talk withHistory, we tell you, hopefully you're
listening to this podcast onyour way to the Devil's Crossroads.
Yeah.
So we hope you guys enjoy thatand I guess we'll talk to you next
time.
Yeah. Thank you.
(28:26):
This has been a Walk withHistory production. Talk With History
is created and hosted by me,Scott Benny. Episode researched by
Jennifer Benny. Check out theshow notes for links and references
mentioned in this episode.Talk with History is supported by
ourfans@thehistoryroadtrip.com our eternal
thanks go out to thoseproviding funding to help keep us
going. Thank you to DougMcLiberty, Larry Myers, Patrick Benny,
(28:50):
Gale Cooper, Christy Coates,and Calvin Gifford. Make sure you
hit that follow button in thatpodcast player and we'll talk to
you next.
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