December 9, 2025 • 34 mins
Israel sits at the center of world attention, often stirring strong opinions and deep questions, but how should Christians relate to the nation of Israel?
In this episode, host Jon Delger, the Executive Pastor of the Peace Family of Churches, and Logan Bailey, the Family Pastor at Peace Church, explore whether the modern nation of Israel carries a unique place in God’s plan, how Christians should relate to them, and how dispensationalism and covenant theology offer competing answers to these questions.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast where we
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. If you or someone you know has
questions, please submit them toPeace Church dot CC slash
questions. Well, hey everyone, welcome to
that's a good question. Excited to get to have the
conversation today with Pastor Logan.
(00:30):
Glad to be here. And today we're going to talk
about an exciting topic, an important topic frequently in
the news, something that Christians are thinking about,
something that we need to know what the Bible says about this
topic. Just a few of the questions
we're going to be answering and discussing today.
Is the Israel in the Bible the same thing as the current nation
of Israel? Is Israel still God's chosen
(00:50):
people? There is a popular belief that
Christians should support and defend the nation or government
of Israel. Should we do that?
Just some of the questions that we're going to tackle today all
about the nation of. Israel, let's do it.
It's a light episode. Yeah, nothing hard, nothing
tricky. Let's do it.
Yeah, let's get now. Some important questions.
(01:10):
Let's get in the weeds. All right, So Pastor Logan, that
first question get us started. Is the Israel in the Bible the
same thing as the current nationof Israel?
I don't know if people will be surprised by this.
The answer is no. It is a no.
And yet there's some nuances we can give to this, but it's a no.
I do wonder if people will be surprised to hear that.
Yeah, it is a no. And I think the key reason for
(01:35):
that is that we are on a different side of the life,
death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, right?
I mean, that's a, that's the, the pivotal moment in all of
human history is the coming of Jesus, the first coming of
Jesus. He will return in the future.
It's the turning point between the Old Testament, the New
Testament, it's turning point inhuman history and it and it
changes the way that Israel functions in what we call
(01:57):
redemptive history, the history of God working on his plan of
redemption in human history, right?
So let's talk about that. So how did God relate to Israel
in the Old Testament? They're his people, right?
Yes, yeah, I will. I will be your God.
You will be my people. That's covenant to languages
throughout the Bible. I think of Exodus 6-7 is a
(02:17):
really important one because it has to do with the Exodus.
I am your God, you are my peopletype of language.
That is what Israel is, Yeah. And that starts with Abraham,
right? So let's just, you know, just
playing out real quickly the thestory of Israel in the Old
Testament, you know, going back to Genesis 12, God calls Abraham
(02:38):
and he says that I'm going to make you father of many nations.
And then he says also, and this is key and pivotal for how we
get to the New Testament. And what this all means is that
he says, I'm going to bless all nations through you.
So one of the important things we're going to talk about today
is that actually the plan all along is that God would not just
be working with one nation, but His plan was always to go to all
nations. But he chose to work through one
(03:00):
family that became a nation, Abraham's family, which became
the nation of Israel. Yeah.
And then you get this kind of this, what's the word I'm
looking for, like interchangeable usage of the
word my people and Israel. Yeah.
And so who are, who's God's people?
Israel and yet there's some distinction to be made of God's
(03:22):
people is Israel in the Old Testament.
But what Jesus makes very clear in the new covenant is that
Gentiles are being grafted into this covenant.
I think of Romans 11. It talks about the branches
being cut off and wild shoots being grafted in.
(03:44):
And so God's people at this at that point is no longer Israel,
but is Gentiles being brought inand literally like the word for
Gentile is nations. Yeah.
And so this goes back to the original plan.
This wasn't some new idea that Jesus threw in there, right?
Him going back to the original plan is my people will be a
(04:07):
blessing to the nations. And he used Israel and then
started blessing Gentiles through the gospel.
But I think what gets confusing is God's people can be used
interchangeably with Israel. Sure.
And that can be confusing. In a sense what we actually are
trying to say is I think you're going there right now, but the
(04:29):
question isn't is Israel God's people, but who is the true
Israel would be the follow up kind of clarification.
That makes sense. Yeah.
So, So what we're saying is thatthe nation of Israel founded in
1948, as it exists today, we're saying that they are a political
(04:49):
nation state, but they are not equal to Israel as talked about
in the Bible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's so there's obvious, obvious connections to make as
far as ethnicity goes, and yet how the Bible uses it is not how
we use it today, right? Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously there's a blood
(05:10):
connection, there's a land connection, there's history.
Yeah. All that makes a ton of sense.
Totally. I got, I had the chance to
preach a sermon on this, I thinkit was last year and talked
about this, this just the relationship of how that all
this works, Israel Old Covenant,new Covenant.
And one of the things I said is that Israel is extremely special
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in the history of God working inthe world.
So I don't, I don't want to losethe fact that God, it's, it's
incredible what God chose to do through the people of Israel in
the Old Testament. That's, that's the people he
called his own. That's where God was doing his
work. That's where God brought the
savior and the Messiah through. I, let me, let me read a
passage. This is Romans Chapter 9.
(05:54):
And for those listen, this, thisis a tough topic.
This is, there's some complexityhere.
So I don't, I, I want to just beclear that if, if as we talk,
this might seem a little bit newand fresh and maybe hard to
digest, that's because this is atough, complicated topic.
That's why you laughed when we started the conversation.
Because it it just, it is like aspider web.
It goes into so many other conversations that we can
(06:15):
mention them, but we can't dive as deep into them as I know we
want to so. We're going to try to keep it
as, as you know, simple as we can, but it is a complex topic.
So I'm going to go to what is probably known as one of the
toughest passages in the Bible, the chapter of Romans 9, for
multiple reasons. And we're just going to, I'm
just going to read the beginningof it and talk about it a little
bit. So this is the apostle Paul.
(06:36):
He's writing. He says I'm speaking the truth
in Christ. I'm not lying.
My conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit.
I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
For I could wish that I myself were a cursed and cut off from
Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsman.
According to the flesh, they areIsraelites.
To them belong the adoption, theglory, the covenants, the giving
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of the law, the worship and the promises.
To them belong the patriarchs. And from their race, according
to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all blessed forever.
Amen. OK, so he's kind of saying some
of the things that that we just said that they, they are
incredibly special in the history of God's work in the
world, says the adoption, the glory of the covenants, the
giving of the law, all those kind of things that the
(07:17):
patriarchs, the Messiah comes from them.
Yes, they have a, they have a very special place.
And then Paul is saying is I, I love them and I, I almost feel
as though I could, I could tradeplaces with them as if I wish
that all of my, my blood relatives, the Jews could
receive Jesus as their Savior and, and I would trade and I
would take their place not having Jesus as my savior.
(07:41):
He almost feels that way. OK, Then he goes on, he says,
but it's not as though the word of God has failed.
For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.
That's a really important phrase.
He goes on. And not all are children of
Abraham because they are his offspring.
And then he says, but and then he quotes an Old Testament
passage through Isaac, Shall your offspring be named?
(08:04):
This means that it is not the children of the flesh or the
children of God, but the children of the promise are
counted as offspring. OK, so that's all that's all
pretty complex, but hang with ushere and I'll try to I'll start
trying to unpack it and then feel free to jump in here.
But Paul is explaining an an important idea that not all who
are descended from Israel belongto Israel.
(08:24):
That is not everybody who is of the bloodline of Abraham.
Embrace the promises. In particular embrace the
Messiah Jesus and became the thetrue Israel.
He goes on to say not all are children of Abraham because
there is offspring and then he quotes because through Isaac
your offspring will be named it Isaac is the child of the
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promise. So what he's trying to say is
just because you are a blood relative of Abraham doesn't make
you a child of God. What actually makes somebody a
child of God is, is having faithlike Abraham had, which is what
Paul also says in Galatians chapter 3.
So he's he's, he's making the point that who, who is The Who
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is the New Covenant Israel, the true Israel, the true Israel are
those who have faith like Abraham, not those who carry the
blood of Abraham. God's people.
Who is that? The true Israel?
It's the same thing. And we know this is true.
It's the same thing in the church.
Who? Who are the believers like you
can come in this church? Does it make you repentant?
(09:31):
Right. Yeah.
Right. Totally.
Yeah. I mean the the age-old analogy
that's used by. Pastors all over the place, yes.
Just because you're standing in a garage doesn't make you a car.
It is pretty good though. Right.
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it makes perfect sense,
right? Just because you sit in a church
on Sunday doesn't make you a Christian.
And Paul's saying the same thing.
Just because you have Jewish blood in you doesn't make mean
(09:52):
that you belong to God. You have to have faith.
Like Abraham. So for anyone that's surprised
to hear the US say no, the nation's current modern nation
state of Israel is not the same as the nation of Israel in Old
Testament. And anyone that's surprised by
that, what we're saying isn't that crazy.
And it's what the Bible is trying to say, which is the
question isn't, is Israel God's people?
(10:13):
The question is, who is the trueIsrael?
Sure. So let me real quick for anybody
thinking about, you know, what does that mean on a on a kind of
a different level. So we're going to go deeper into
this on a biblical theological level, but just for just for the
sake of some clarity on other things.
So we're seeing a lot of wild things be said today about
(10:33):
Jewish people. And so real quick, just even to
address that, you know, so like 2 years ago, in October of 2023,
when the horrible attacks happened on Israel from Hamas,
we did a couple episodes and talked about what that all
means. And I was very clear that I
think it's very clear that Hamasis a terrorist organization.
(10:54):
They did a terrible thing that Israel is the victim.
And that's, that's absolutely true.
So I, I just want people to understand like what we're
saying here theologically is notsaying, it's not like we're
saying, hey, we're a. Yeah, we can get in this.
Isn't a for or against politicalIsrael, which we're saying that
political Israel, modern day thenation of Israel is not the
(11:14):
same. Thing so far we answered a
theological question and yet obviously it then has political
ramifications. But we're not, we're not trying
to say anything other than just the simple theological statement
that the Bible is making, which is there's a there's a
disconnect there between in the modern nation state and the
Israel and Old Testament specifically because the the
question at the heart of the issue is who is God's people?
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And it's not in a bloodline, right?
And Romans 9 makes that abundantly clear.
And Romans 11 makes the point ofthere's an olive tree.
And just because you grew as a branch off that olive tree
doesn't mean you can't be cut off and it doesn't mean someone
else can't be grafted back in. And that's what we see is that
Gentiles being grafted in in mass because of the power of the
(11:58):
gospel. And that's, and again, Gentiles
nations, that was the original plan is to be a blessing to the
nations. And that's what we see.
And that's what we see when we look ahead into the into
eternity. The Eternal Vision is the
nations all times, all tribes, worshipping our Creator and our
Savior. I also.
Just real quick, I want, I want to, I want to give kind of the
(12:18):
verse references of what you just mentioned just so people
can look at them later if they want to.
You might be listening to this while you're driving or
whatever, but I want so that youcan look back later.
So key passages, Genesis chapter12, God's call for Abraham,
Abraham as his name is changed to you be a blessing to all
nations. And then we see fulfillment of
that further on in the New Testament.
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Ultimately, we see fulfillment in Revelation Chapter 7, which
is the picture of all tribes andtongues and nations bowing
before Jesus in worship at his second coming.
Couple of key passages to look at is when I read Romans Chapter
9. Another really important one to
read is Galatians chapter 3. So just real quick to give you a
few different chapters of the Bible to look at just to
undergird what we're saying here.
(13:00):
So go ahead. The only other point I was going
to make is that Jesus intentionally went to Jews
before Gentiles and as far as preaching the gospel and Paul
then followed suit with that andhe went to synagogues and he
went to cities and then spoke toGentiles after.
I think of that's, and that's why the Mars Hill sermon is so
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impactful and huge because this was him stranded actually kind
of he had to leave all his companions in Athens and he's
surrounded by a bunch of philosophers, Stoics and
Epicureans. And then he gives this sermon
that is it's different than whathe would say in synagogues.
It's it's meeting the people where they're at.
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But you see him, he's reaching out to Gentiles.
Yes, on Mars Hill he's doing that, but he would always go to
the synagogues first. There's something unique about a
a Jewish person here in the Gospel rather than a Gentile
person here in the gospel. There's a difference there
because the bloodline is there and potentially even.
Well, there and their belief in the Old Testament, right?
Yeah, because they, you know, because Paul knows that they
(14:05):
have the thing in common that webelieve the Old Testament is
true. Then he starts in different
places. All right, you know the Old
Testament is true. What I want to show you is that
Jesus is the Messiah who was supposed to.
Come you read the book of Acts. You go to Acts 15, the first
council of the OR the church. How do we, how do we have
harmony in the church when we'remade-up of both Jews and
Gentiles? That's like the drama of the New
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Testament. They're working those things
out. And Acts 15 talks about Paul is
there, Bondamest is there, Peteris there.
And then James kind of wraps thewhole thing up in a bow and
says, like, yeah, we want harmony.
They're saved by Grace, too. And they all come to that
conclusion, right? But that's the New Testament
drama is like, how are we working this out?
Ephesians 2 is is a chapter that's largely about how, hey,
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we're no longer two. Yes, the Jew and Gentile, we're
one. Peter says they, the Gentiles,
will be saved. This is in Acts 15 by Grace,
just like we are. And So what we're not saying now
this at this point 2000 years later, we're not saying Gentiles
are the only ones saved by graceand Jews aren't sure.
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Like we're not trying to remove the the reality of like there is
something unique about a a a Jewbecoming to Christ.
Like there then there are beautiful ministries of trying
to take the gospel to Jewish people that read the Old
Testament. Like you go read Isaiah
suffering servant things and youpeople come to Christ who are
Jewish and don't believe in him as the Messiah.
(15:31):
And like we should be praying for those things and supporting
those kinds of things. We're not saying that Jews are
further from no salvation for some way than for sure.
Yeah. Definitely no.
That's where the that's where the roots are, right?
That's where that's where it came from.
And yet now it's people of all nations.
So just to kind of build on whatwe're saying about the pivotal
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moment that changed Israel of the Bible.
Israel's a modern nation. The moment is Jesus is coming.
And the reason for that is that the whole Testament is building
up to a true Son of God who willcome and meet all the
requirements of the law, do whatAdam couldn't do, which was obey
God perfectly, and then to do what Israel couldn't do, which
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was to obey God perfectly, right?
Jesus is, is the fulfillment allof all that right?
Throughout the Old Testament, God calls Israel his son, but
then Jesus comes and he's the perfect son.
He's really and truly the Son ofGod.
He fulfills the law perfectly. And then he actually pays the
debt that was owed because of our violation of the law in his
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death on the cross. And then he's resurrected.
So that is that that changes everything.
That's the moment at which things change.
And now the church is the new Israel, God's people.
Yeah. Oh, I'm just thinking back to
the spider web of we could go inso many different directions
right now. You've probably heard terms like
(17:01):
covenant theology and dispensationalism.
Replacement theology? That's kind of a Yep, Yep.
Yep. Is a concern of people that come
from a dispensationalist background of well, I just don't
want you to replace Israel because because there's this
firm belief and a dispensationalist background
that there are prophecies in theBible that are meant to be
fulfilled by Israel, the nation state of Israel, and not the
church. And we're saying more along the
(17:23):
lines of the prophecies for God's people or for God's
people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And one of the things when people say, well, this, that's
replacement theology, I say, no,it's fulfillment theology.
Replacement theology is just kind of a term.
It's used to kind of. Like a derogatory.
Yeah, it's a derogatory term used kind of.
Against and I appreciate their concerns from their perspective,
they care about good theology and there's a disagreement
(17:44):
there, right. Yeah, I think of to use a crass
metaphor and maybe this isn't good, but Jews in the Old
Testament waiting for the Messiah to come, the Messiah
comes and for a Jew to continue to live as if the Messiah has
not come is almost they have missed the train and now are
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wondering where this where the train is.
And so there's some people that take this conversation into like
an anti-Semitic position. We should hate them because of
their unique rejection of Jesus.And I want to I think the Bible
would have us more so. And this is what this is what
you know, this is what you see when you see ministry to Jews in
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the Bible is it's not a unique hatred for them.
It's a unique sorrow for them that they've missed the train.
Yeah, people have taken that to an unhealthy place.
Martin Luther, unfortunately, was one of those which.
Is so unique because if you lookat Martin Luther, we're in the
Reformed background. So we love Martin Luther then.
And he's not a perfect, he's notthe Messiah, right?
So it's clearly imperfections and sinful things about him.
(18:54):
But his earlier commentary on ministry to Jewish people is
actually phenomenal. And it is the sorrowful side of
things of like, I desperately want my Jewish neighbors to
believe in Jesus. And then it does turn into a a
unique hatred for them later in his life.
Which some of us said maybe he even lost his mind at that point
point. I mean, I was talking with when
was this? Maybe a year ago.
(19:14):
I was talking with David Brickner, CEO of Jews for Jesus.
Yeah, great organization trying to reach Jews with the gospel.
And that's what that was his take on.
Yeah, we talked about. I think Luther is crazy.
Yeah, he he said. Yeah, I think he had some
mental. Illnesses hey, I wouldn't want
to live in the 1500s and be. Yeah, right, right.
So, so who knows? But yeah, anti-Semitism should
not be the result of the theology that we're talking.
(19:36):
About and anti-Semitism is just like blind hatred for the Jewish
people. And that's not it's not that's
not biblical at all. That's that's anti what the
Bible is. The Bible is is wanting us to
have a unique heart for the people that have missed the
train. It's like you're trying to
follow the law, but we already have fulfillment of the law in
those things. It's so it's heartbreaking is
what it is. Yeah, yeah.
(19:56):
And so if you want to get into the political, I don't know, but
how Jewish is the current nationof Israel?
Are they a bulwark for the faithof the Jewish faith?
Not that I'm aware of. I I would say I'm not any kind
of expert on that. I think they're they're a
secular nation. I mean, yeah, they're obviously
a unique nation and Jewish, but they're pretty secular.
(20:20):
It's not like every citizen of the nation, the current nation
state of Israel is, you know, anAbraham clone or.
Like, sure. So that actually leads into an
important question. I think that's also being asked
here. So the person asked the
question, There's a popular belief that Christians should
support and defend the nation orgovernment of Israel.
Should we? And then they go on, they say,
(20:42):
if so, what if the government isor becomes corrupted?
Are we still bound to support and defend it?
Yeah, we're like tangibly crossing a line now from
theology to politics. Sure, right.
Well, and that's because it's right what we believe about
ultimate things is going to havean impact on what we think about
all things policy in the real world.
So so that that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I think that I think
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when people think of Jerusalem or when think people think of
the nation of Israel today, theythink of Jerusalem.
And yet it's we should maybe thinking about Tel Aviv or some
other city. You know, it's, it's more than
just, yeah, they protect and, you know, maintain the holy,
holy, holiest sites of a shared,you know, a shared holy site for
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Jews, Christians and Muslims. And yeah, I know a thing or two
about Islam. It's not the holiest site for
Islam. It's maybe the 4th or 5th.
And yet you can do it that way. You will.
But there's a difference betweenministry to to Muslims and Jews.
And there's less of a heartbreakwith Muslims because they just
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flat out reject Jesus. Jews, they are longing for Jesus
and yet reject him. And that's I think a
heartbreaking thing, like we said, but we're thinking of this
now. We're in a political
conversation and current nation state of Israel.
Should Christians defend Israel full stop?
The answer is no. And yet in in current political
(22:09):
climate, I defend Israel. I think that's a great way to
say it. It's hard.
It's hard to totally wade through these waters without
getting a little muddy because it's so complex.
But we're, we've talked about this before.
It's like you're dealing with a terrorist organization and a
government. Yeah, right, right.
Hamas versus Israel is like apples and orange.
(22:30):
You're dealing with a terrorist organization wanting to
annihilate everyone in that border of the nation state of
Israel, Right? From the river to the sea is
their slogan. Want to?
Annihilate Israel. I want they're saying let's we
want genocide. That's that's what their stated
goal is. A nation has to, a government
(22:50):
has to respond to that to protect its people.
So I'm going to defend the, you know.
So we're saying that both of us here, both of us here, our
political position would be to say in the in the battle between
Israel and Hamas that we think Israel was the victims on
October 7th, 2023 and they have a right to defend themselves.
So that's politically where we stand and what makes sense.
Hamas is a terrorist organizations.
(23:11):
That's some terrible things. Now, to be clear, that's we're
not saying that Israel as a nation or a government has been
perfect or anything like. That or that they deserve our
defense in every regard. Sure, in perpetuity, that's.
Not, yeah. But so in general in the
conflict and, you know, the, youknow, the situation is
developing day by day, week by week.
So, you know, even by the time this airs, you know, some of
(23:33):
those, some of what we're saying, you know, new
developments will have come. But we're saying is in general
in that conflict, you know, Israel's the ones defending
themselves. So that's a political position.
But theologically, we're saying that we don't get there from a
theological place. We get there from a just looking
at it as any nation on the earthand what makes sense, what seems
(23:56):
morally right, not for a theological reason.
And it's important to realize that that's that's not how a lot
of American Christians get there.
So this is where it comes back. Because more of a
dispensationalist. Yeah.
So the the two positions are called dispensationalism and
covenant theology. Dispensationalism is the
opposite of what we're saying. They would say that there are
(24:16):
two peoples of God, the Jews andthe church, which we of course
would say is the opposite of what the New Testament says.
And so they they would say that,yeah, that Israel is still God's
people and is different than thechurch.
There's, there's, there's prophecy yet to be fulfilled for
them. I mean, one way that I heard a
(24:37):
classical dispensationalist say at one time in a in a talk they
were giving, as they said in theOld Testament, God was on the
phone with Israel. And then in the New Testament,
God puts them on hold, puts downthe phone, He picks up a
different phone with the church,but then eventually the rapture
is going to happen. He's going to put, he's going to
(24:57):
put down the phone with the church and then he's going to
pick back up the phone with Israel.
That's so that's their take. On it, my general understanding
of dispensationalism that seems like an accurate description of
I think I think the average dispensationalist would agree
with that. And there's there's different
flavors of dispensationalist. It's not like they're all
monolithic, but it's a pretty consistent, coherent theory of
(25:17):
how to read the Bible, how to how to divide the word of God
rightly. Is is a verse and that's what
they go to is like just trying to divide the word of God
rightly and to see it as distinct dispensations versus a
covenant. Theology would say, yeah, there
are different dispensations, different time periods where God
deals uniquely with his people, but they're they're not the
story. Is unfolding.
(25:37):
They're not hard brakes, you know, there's no hanging up and
putting on hold. It's this is developing, this is
building on top of. And I think that's actually, I
think I, I want to say that put on hold pick up is a good
description of a dispensationalist background.
Yeah. And so that's so, So what I
guess what I want people to understand is that you're, when
you're talking to people out there, they're going to, some
(25:58):
people are going to have that belief.
So they, they disagree with whatwe're saying.
They have a theological conviction that leads them to
support the nation of Israel. But we're saying that's that's
not really the best biblical approach.
And we are so influenced by dispensational theology because
it's very American. Totally very American and that
is for for those who don't know,that's what the Left Behind
(26:20):
book. Series, yes, that's kind of that
point. That's that's what that is, is
that's dispensationalism. And so especially through those
books, it became so popularized that it has really shaped
American Christianity a lot. Yeah, that's why I was sick,
that that's what I was thinking of when I opened with.
I wonder if people will be surprised by our take on this.
Sure that we're we're just making this distinction between
(26:41):
political and theological. And biblical.
We need a reformed version of Left Behind series.
Logan, you need to write it. I don't know if that was a
millennial or post millennial. Ours wouldn't be quite as
exciting as theirs. Right, That's the problem.
Jesus comes back. I know, right?
Right, Right. Like a thief in the night,
right? No, I think that kind of goes to
(27:02):
to get more just to toss out more political or more
theological terms just to say like this is complex.
There's more depth here that we're not going to be able to
get into. But like when you read biblical
prophecy, are you reading it as this is something that has
already happened, is currently happening, or none of it's
happened and it will one day happen?
And that's kind of that distinction, like the preterist,
(27:25):
partial preterist, futurist typeof distinctions.
When you read prophecy, when Jesus talks about the day of the
Lord, when Revelation talks about things like this, you can
just go in so many different directions because of that
theologically. And we're trying to keep it
simple and say we are saying thenation, modern nation state of
(27:46):
Israel is distinct from Old Testament because the question
is who are the real people of God, true Israel?
And it's those that never. We're trying to keep this
simple. I don't.
Know if repented, repented put their faith in Jesus, right?
It all goes back to Jesus, as we're saying.
That's right. Amen.
Even politically, the reason we arrive at our conclusion
politically about supporting Israel in this current situation
(28:08):
is goes back to Jesus too. He, he's a God of justice.
He wants to see justice upheld. And a government is trying to
provide justice for its people, Right.
So then my question to you, Pastor John, is, and I almost
tried talking to you about this before the show, but you're
like, stop, we have we can talk about it when we have mics in
(28:29):
front of our faces. So here's the pressure on you is
this was a listener question. Is Israel in full rebellion to
God, the current nation of Israel?
So, yeah, and I think the way you were saying earlier, I mean,
we have to distinguish, are we talking about the nation?
Are we talking about individuals?
And I think that's an interesting question, but so
(28:51):
I'll start with the simpler answer.
The simpler answer is if, if, yeah, if you're a Jewish person
and you're not saying that Jesusis the Messiah that the Old
Testament prophesied would come and you receive him as Lord and
Savior, then you are rejecting God's Messiah.
And that is rebellion. And that's not just if you're a
Jewish person. That's if you're.
Sure. For anybody that's true.
For anybody, it's true. If you're rejecting Jesus, then
(29:11):
you're rejecting God's Savior, the Messiah for us, for sure.
But yeah, for, for, for a Jew, that's what they've been longing
for. They've been waiting and
expecting the Messiah to come. He he has come and his name is
Jesus, but unfortunately they haven't received him.
Can a nation be in rebellion to God?
That's a really interesting question.
(29:32):
I think I think the short answeris yes, because I think I'm
thinking of especially in the prophets in the Bible.
I mean, there are, there are plenty of passages in Scripture
that call out entire nations. And so I think, yes, it's fair.
I think actually in the Bible, nation is probably like the
largest group that God addresses, right?
(29:52):
Like God addresses nations, He addresses families, he addresses
individuals, he addresses his church.
Yeah, God addresses his whole nation.
So I'd say, yeah, it's true thata whole nation can be in
rebellion against God. What?
There's a lot of directions we can go with.
That I know. I I think you're right.
I think it's it's hard with the the the what I get hung up on is
(30:14):
full is the nation of Israel in full rebellion to God.
It's like, well, I think of United States of America, we
have taxpayer funded abortion. Yeah, well, that's where I
consider that rebellion to the to the, the God who knits us in
our mother's womb. Like I consider that rebellion.
And yet do we have laws that arejust Yeah.
(30:38):
So it's not like, so I'm trying to parse out like, what does it
mean to be in full rebellion to God?
Is every law in the books in Israel, you know, breaking?
Right. And that's why I, that's why I
hesitated to say more is because, yeah, like I said in
the in the Bible, the prophets do address whole nations.
But yeah, we know that each nation, including ours, has pros
and cons, right? There are things that we're
doing that are in line with whatGod wants.
(31:00):
And there are things that we're doing that are definitely not in
line with. What God wants and I think
that's a good place to land the plane for the question.
I, I do think as far as our answer to, to take it to another
angle, I think of one of the only non Jewish people in the
Bible to be given the title Messiah.
(31:23):
Do you know who it is? It's like a Bible trivia
question. It's Cyrus.
He's given the title of God's anointed.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because God is sending him to toenact justice on his people.
And yet the nation that Cyrus LED was in rebellion to God,
(31:46):
right? And were judged for that.
Right. And yet God used them.
And so they weren't rebelling against God.
And in that sense, you know, he was using them.
But so it's it's complicated. Sure.
You know, totally. And I just, yeah, I guess I go
back to what you said of like the question, you said it
(32:08):
perfectly. I don't want to restate.
Yeah, I guess I assume at the most basic level question is if
a, if a Jewish person hasn't received Jesus, yes, they are
rebelling against God's. They're not receiving him yet,
for sure. Which, OK, here, last question.
I think we'll have time to hit the listener writes this.
What would you say to someone who says that the Jews are the
(32:29):
only people going to heaven? And I'll start my, my quick
answers to say if they're sayingthat they're probably an
Orthodox Jew, right? I mean, that's, I mean, I'm just
saying like that, that's not actually I, I, I don't know
where that question exactly is coming from, but that's, that's
not really a Christian a, a question coming from a
Christian, right? That's if you're talking to
somebody who believes only the Jews are going to heaven,
(32:51):
they're probably an Orthodox Jew.
And what would I say to them? I would say to them, Hey, let's
sit down and like the Old Testament, because Jesus is the
Messiah you've been looking for.That's what.
I would say yes, yeah, I got nothing to add to that.
That that's that's exactly, Yeah, let's look at.
So if there's, if there's somebody that's calling
themselves a Christian and saying that, then I've got a lot
of questions. I'm I'm not quite sure what that
what that means or what they who's the Messiah?
Yeah, question, what does? That mean, oh man, for us as
(33:14):
Christians, it is important thatas we think about these issues,
we think about it through the lens of the Bible, that we
really understand the storyline of Scripture, how it unfolds and
how it is that we relate to the people of Israel historically
and even today. And again, the key important
point is that nobody is saved byworks, nobody is saved by
bloodline. People are saved by faith in
(33:36):
Jesus Christ. Yes, And those who have that
faith, they are the people of God.
Well, thanks so much everyone. Have a great week.
Welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast where we
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. If you or someone you know has
questions, please submit them toPeace Church dot CC slash
questions. Well, hey everyone, welcome to
that's a good question. Excited to get to have the
conversation today with Pastor Logan.
(00:30):
Glad to be here. And today we're going to talk
about an exciting topic, an important topic frequently in
the news, something that Christians are thinking about,
something that we need to know what the Bible says about this
topic. Just a few of the questions
we're going to be answering and discussing today.
Is the Israel in the Bible the same thing as the current nation
of Israel? Is Israel still God's chosen
(00:50):
people? There is a popular belief that
Christians should support and defend the nation or government
of Israel. Should we do that?
Just some of the questions that we're going to tackle today all
about the nation of. Israel, let's do it.
It's a light episode. Yeah, nothing hard, nothing
tricky. Let's do it.
Yeah, let's get now. Some important questions.
(01:10):
Let's get in the weeds. All right, So Pastor Logan, that
first question get us started. Is the Israel in the Bible the
same thing as the current nationof Israel?
I don't know if people will be surprised by this.
The answer is no. It is a no.
And yet there's some nuances we can give to this, but it's a no.
I do wonder if people will be surprised to hear that.
Yeah, it is a no. And I think the key reason for
(01:35):
that is that we are on a different side of the life,
death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, right?
I mean, that's a, that's the, the pivotal moment in all of
human history is the coming of Jesus, the first coming of
Jesus. He will return in the future.
It's the turning point between the Old Testament, the New
Testament, it's turning point inhuman history and it and it
changes the way that Israel functions in what we call
(01:57):
redemptive history, the history of God working on his plan of
redemption in human history, right?
So let's talk about that. So how did God relate to Israel
in the Old Testament? They're his people, right?
Yes, yeah, I will. I will be your God.
You will be my people. That's covenant to languages
throughout the Bible. I think of Exodus 6-7 is a
(02:17):
really important one because it has to do with the Exodus.
I am your God, you are my peopletype of language.
That is what Israel is, Yeah. And that starts with Abraham,
right? So let's just, you know, just
playing out real quickly the thestory of Israel in the Old
Testament, you know, going back to Genesis 12, God calls Abraham
(02:38):
and he says that I'm going to make you father of many nations.
And then he says also, and this is key and pivotal for how we
get to the New Testament. And what this all means is that
he says, I'm going to bless all nations through you.
So one of the important things we're going to talk about today
is that actually the plan all along is that God would not just
be working with one nation, but His plan was always to go to all
nations. But he chose to work through one
(03:00):
family that became a nation, Abraham's family, which became
the nation of Israel. Yeah.
And then you get this kind of this, what's the word I'm
looking for, like interchangeable usage of the
word my people and Israel. Yeah.
And so who are, who's God's people?
Israel and yet there's some distinction to be made of God's
(03:22):
people is Israel in the Old Testament.
But what Jesus makes very clear in the new covenant is that
Gentiles are being grafted into this covenant.
I think of Romans 11. It talks about the branches
being cut off and wild shoots being grafted in.
(03:44):
And so God's people at this at that point is no longer Israel,
but is Gentiles being brought inand literally like the word for
Gentile is nations. Yeah.
And so this goes back to the original plan.
This wasn't some new idea that Jesus threw in there, right?
Him going back to the original plan is my people will be a
(04:07):
blessing to the nations. And he used Israel and then
started blessing Gentiles through the gospel.
But I think what gets confusing is God's people can be used
interchangeably with Israel. Sure.
And that can be confusing. In a sense what we actually are
trying to say is I think you're going there right now, but the
(04:29):
question isn't is Israel God's people, but who is the true
Israel would be the follow up kind of clarification.
That makes sense. Yeah.
So, So what we're saying is thatthe nation of Israel founded in
1948, as it exists today, we're saying that they are a political
(04:49):
nation state, but they are not equal to Israel as talked about
in the Bible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's so there's obvious, obvious connections to make as
far as ethnicity goes, and yet how the Bible uses it is not how
we use it today, right? Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously there's a blood
(05:10):
connection, there's a land connection, there's history.
Yeah. All that makes a ton of sense.
Totally. I got, I had the chance to
preach a sermon on this, I thinkit was last year and talked
about this, this just the relationship of how that all
this works, Israel Old Covenant,new Covenant.
And one of the things I said is that Israel is extremely special
(05:31):
in the history of God working inthe world.
So I don't, I don't want to losethe fact that God, it's, it's
incredible what God chose to do through the people of Israel in
the Old Testament. That's, that's the people he
called his own. That's where God was doing his
work. That's where God brought the
savior and the Messiah through. I, let me, let me read a
passage. This is Romans Chapter 9.
(05:54):
And for those listen, this, thisis a tough topic.
This is, there's some complexityhere.
So I don't, I, I want to just beclear that if, if as we talk,
this might seem a little bit newand fresh and maybe hard to
digest, that's because this is atough, complicated topic.
That's why you laughed when we started the conversation.
Because it it just, it is like aspider web.
It goes into so many other conversations that we can
(06:15):
mention them, but we can't dive as deep into them as I know we
want to so. We're going to try to keep it
as, as you know, simple as we can, but it is a complex topic.
So I'm going to go to what is probably known as one of the
toughest passages in the Bible, the chapter of Romans 9, for
multiple reasons. And we're just going to, I'm
just going to read the beginningof it and talk about it a little
bit. So this is the apostle Paul.
(06:36):
He's writing. He says I'm speaking the truth
in Christ. I'm not lying.
My conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit.
I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
For I could wish that I myself were a cursed and cut off from
Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsman.
According to the flesh, they areIsraelites.
To them belong the adoption, theglory, the covenants, the giving
(06:57):
of the law, the worship and the promises.
To them belong the patriarchs. And from their race, according
to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all blessed forever.
Amen. OK, so he's kind of saying some
of the things that that we just said that they, they are
incredibly special in the history of God's work in the
world, says the adoption, the glory of the covenants, the
giving of the law, all those kind of things that the
(07:17):
patriarchs, the Messiah comes from them.
Yes, they have a, they have a very special place.
And then Paul is saying is I, I love them and I, I almost feel
as though I could, I could tradeplaces with them as if I wish
that all of my, my blood relatives, the Jews could
receive Jesus as their Savior and, and I would trade and I
would take their place not having Jesus as my savior.
(07:41):
He almost feels that way. OK, Then he goes on, he says,
but it's not as though the word of God has failed.
For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.
That's a really important phrase.
He goes on. And not all are children of
Abraham because they are his offspring.
And then he says, but and then he quotes an Old Testament
passage through Isaac, Shall your offspring be named?
(08:04):
This means that it is not the children of the flesh or the
children of God, but the children of the promise are
counted as offspring. OK, so that's all that's all
pretty complex, but hang with ushere and I'll try to I'll start
trying to unpack it and then feel free to jump in here.
But Paul is explaining an an important idea that not all who
are descended from Israel belongto Israel.
(08:24):
That is not everybody who is of the bloodline of Abraham.
Embrace the promises. In particular embrace the
Messiah Jesus and became the thetrue Israel.
He goes on to say not all are children of Abraham because
there is offspring and then he quotes because through Isaac
your offspring will be named it Isaac is the child of the
(08:45):
promise. So what he's trying to say is
just because you are a blood relative of Abraham doesn't make
you a child of God. What actually makes somebody a
child of God is, is having faithlike Abraham had, which is what
Paul also says in Galatians chapter 3.
So he's he's, he's making the point that who, who is The Who
(09:07):
is the New Covenant Israel, the true Israel, the true Israel are
those who have faith like Abraham, not those who carry the
blood of Abraham. God's people.
Who is that? The true Israel?
It's the same thing. And we know this is true.
It's the same thing in the church.
Who? Who are the believers like you
can come in this church? Does it make you repentant?
(09:31):
Right. Yeah.
Right. Totally.
Yeah. I mean the the age-old analogy
that's used by. Pastors all over the place, yes.
Just because you're standing in a garage doesn't make you a car.
It is pretty good though. Right.
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it makes perfect sense,
right? Just because you sit in a church
on Sunday doesn't make you a Christian.
And Paul's saying the same thing.
Just because you have Jewish blood in you doesn't make mean
(09:52):
that you belong to God. You have to have faith.
Like Abraham. So for anyone that's surprised
to hear the US say no, the nation's current modern nation
state of Israel is not the same as the nation of Israel in Old
Testament. And anyone that's surprised by
that, what we're saying isn't that crazy.
And it's what the Bible is trying to say, which is the
question isn't, is Israel God's people?
(10:13):
The question is, who is the trueIsrael?
Sure. So let me real quick for anybody
thinking about, you know, what does that mean on a on a kind of
a different level. So we're going to go deeper into
this on a biblical theological level, but just for just for the
sake of some clarity on other things.
So we're seeing a lot of wild things be said today about
(10:33):
Jewish people. And so real quick, just even to
address that, you know, so like 2 years ago, in October of 2023,
when the horrible attacks happened on Israel from Hamas,
we did a couple episodes and talked about what that all
means. And I was very clear that I
think it's very clear that Hamasis a terrorist organization.
(10:54):
They did a terrible thing that Israel is the victim.
And that's, that's absolutely true.
So I, I just want people to understand like what we're
saying here theologically is notsaying, it's not like we're
saying, hey, we're a. Yeah, we can get in this.
Isn't a for or against politicalIsrael, which we're saying that
political Israel, modern day thenation of Israel is not the
(11:14):
same. Thing so far we answered a
theological question and yet obviously it then has political
ramifications. But we're not, we're not trying
to say anything other than just the simple theological statement
that the Bible is making, which is there's a there's a
disconnect there between in the modern nation state and the
Israel and Old Testament specifically because the the
question at the heart of the issue is who is God's people?
(11:37):
And it's not in a bloodline, right?
And Romans 9 makes that abundantly clear.
And Romans 11 makes the point ofthere's an olive tree.
And just because you grew as a branch off that olive tree
doesn't mean you can't be cut off and it doesn't mean someone
else can't be grafted back in. And that's what we see is that
Gentiles being grafted in in mass because of the power of the
(11:58):
gospel. And that's, and again, Gentiles
nations, that was the original plan is to be a blessing to the
nations. And that's what we see.
And that's what we see when we look ahead into the into
eternity. The Eternal Vision is the
nations all times, all tribes, worshipping our Creator and our
Savior. I also.
Just real quick, I want, I want to, I want to give kind of the
(12:18):
verse references of what you just mentioned just so people
can look at them later if they want to.
You might be listening to this while you're driving or
whatever, but I want so that youcan look back later.
So key passages, Genesis chapter12, God's call for Abraham,
Abraham as his name is changed to you be a blessing to all
nations. And then we see fulfillment of
that further on in the New Testament.
(12:39):
Ultimately, we see fulfillment in Revelation Chapter 7, which
is the picture of all tribes andtongues and nations bowing
before Jesus in worship at his second coming.
Couple of key passages to look at is when I read Romans Chapter
9. Another really important one to
read is Galatians chapter 3. So just real quick to give you a
few different chapters of the Bible to look at just to
undergird what we're saying here.
(13:00):
So go ahead. The only other point I was going
to make is that Jesus intentionally went to Jews
before Gentiles and as far as preaching the gospel and Paul
then followed suit with that andhe went to synagogues and he
went to cities and then spoke toGentiles after.
I think of that's, and that's why the Mars Hill sermon is so
(13:22):
impactful and huge because this was him stranded actually kind
of he had to leave all his companions in Athens and he's
surrounded by a bunch of philosophers, Stoics and
Epicureans. And then he gives this sermon
that is it's different than whathe would say in synagogues.
It's it's meeting the people where they're at.
(13:43):
But you see him, he's reaching out to Gentiles.
Yes, on Mars Hill he's doing that, but he would always go to
the synagogues first. There's something unique about a
a Jewish person here in the Gospel rather than a Gentile
person here in the gospel. There's a difference there
because the bloodline is there and potentially even.
Well, there and their belief in the Old Testament, right?
Yeah, because they, you know, because Paul knows that they
(14:05):
have the thing in common that webelieve the Old Testament is
true. Then he starts in different
places. All right, you know the Old
Testament is true. What I want to show you is that
Jesus is the Messiah who was supposed to.
Come you read the book of Acts. You go to Acts 15, the first
council of the OR the church. How do we, how do we have
harmony in the church when we'remade-up of both Jews and
Gentiles? That's like the drama of the New
(14:26):
Testament. They're working those things
out. And Acts 15 talks about Paul is
there, Bondamest is there, Peteris there.
And then James kind of wraps thewhole thing up in a bow and
says, like, yeah, we want harmony.
They're saved by Grace, too. And they all come to that
conclusion, right? But that's the New Testament
drama is like, how are we working this out?
Ephesians 2 is is a chapter that's largely about how, hey,
(14:47):
we're no longer two. Yes, the Jew and Gentile, we're
one. Peter says they, the Gentiles,
will be saved. This is in Acts 15 by Grace,
just like we are. And So what we're not saying now
this at this point 2000 years later, we're not saying Gentiles
are the only ones saved by graceand Jews aren't sure.
(15:09):
Like we're not trying to remove the the reality of like there is
something unique about a a a Jewbecoming to Christ.
Like there then there are beautiful ministries of trying
to take the gospel to Jewish people that read the Old
Testament. Like you go read Isaiah
suffering servant things and youpeople come to Christ who are
Jewish and don't believe in him as the Messiah.
(15:31):
And like we should be praying for those things and supporting
those kinds of things. We're not saying that Jews are
further from no salvation for some way than for sure.
Yeah. Definitely no.
That's where the that's where the roots are, right?
That's where that's where it came from.
And yet now it's people of all nations.
So just to kind of build on whatwe're saying about the pivotal
(15:52):
moment that changed Israel of the Bible.
Israel's a modern nation. The moment is Jesus is coming.
And the reason for that is that the whole Testament is building
up to a true Son of God who willcome and meet all the
requirements of the law, do whatAdam couldn't do, which was obey
God perfectly, and then to do what Israel couldn't do, which
(16:16):
was to obey God perfectly, right?
Jesus is, is the fulfillment allof all that right?
Throughout the Old Testament, God calls Israel his son, but
then Jesus comes and he's the perfect son.
He's really and truly the Son ofGod.
He fulfills the law perfectly. And then he actually pays the
debt that was owed because of our violation of the law in his
(16:40):
death on the cross. And then he's resurrected.
So that is that that changes everything.
That's the moment at which things change.
And now the church is the new Israel, God's people.
Yeah. Oh, I'm just thinking back to
the spider web of we could go inso many different directions
right now. You've probably heard terms like
(17:01):
covenant theology and dispensationalism.
Replacement theology? That's kind of a Yep, Yep.
Yep. Is a concern of people that come
from a dispensationalist background of well, I just don't
want you to replace Israel because because there's this
firm belief and a dispensationalist background
that there are prophecies in theBible that are meant to be
fulfilled by Israel, the nation state of Israel, and not the
church. And we're saying more along the
(17:23):
lines of the prophecies for God's people or for God's
people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And one of the things when people say, well, this, that's
replacement theology, I say, no,it's fulfillment theology.
Replacement theology is just kind of a term.
It's used to kind of. Like a derogatory.
Yeah, it's a derogatory term used kind of.
Against and I appreciate their concerns from their perspective,
they care about good theology and there's a disagreement
(17:44):
there, right. Yeah, I think of to use a crass
metaphor and maybe this isn't good, but Jews in the Old
Testament waiting for the Messiah to come, the Messiah
comes and for a Jew to continue to live as if the Messiah has
not come is almost they have missed the train and now are
(18:12):
wondering where this where the train is.
And so there's some people that take this conversation into like
an anti-Semitic position. We should hate them because of
their unique rejection of Jesus.And I want to I think the Bible
would have us more so. And this is what this is what
you know, this is what you see when you see ministry to Jews in
(18:33):
the Bible is it's not a unique hatred for them.
It's a unique sorrow for them that they've missed the train.
Yeah, people have taken that to an unhealthy place.
Martin Luther, unfortunately, was one of those which.
Is so unique because if you lookat Martin Luther, we're in the
Reformed background. So we love Martin Luther then.
And he's not a perfect, he's notthe Messiah, right?
So it's clearly imperfections and sinful things about him.
(18:54):
But his earlier commentary on ministry to Jewish people is
actually phenomenal. And it is the sorrowful side of
things of like, I desperately want my Jewish neighbors to
believe in Jesus. And then it does turn into a a
unique hatred for them later in his life.
Which some of us said maybe he even lost his mind at that point
point. I mean, I was talking with when
was this? Maybe a year ago.
(19:14):
I was talking with David Brickner, CEO of Jews for Jesus.
Yeah, great organization trying to reach Jews with the gospel.
And that's what that was his take on.
Yeah, we talked about. I think Luther is crazy.
Yeah, he he said. Yeah, I think he had some
mental. Illnesses hey, I wouldn't want
to live in the 1500s and be. Yeah, right, right.
So, so who knows? But yeah, anti-Semitism should
not be the result of the theology that we're talking.
(19:36):
About and anti-Semitism is just like blind hatred for the Jewish
people. And that's not it's not that's
not biblical at all. That's that's anti what the
Bible is. The Bible is is wanting us to
have a unique heart for the people that have missed the
train. It's like you're trying to
follow the law, but we already have fulfillment of the law in
those things. It's so it's heartbreaking is
what it is. Yeah, yeah.
(19:56):
And so if you want to get into the political, I don't know, but
how Jewish is the current nationof Israel?
Are they a bulwark for the faithof the Jewish faith?
Not that I'm aware of. I I would say I'm not any kind
of expert on that. I think they're they're a
secular nation. I mean, yeah, they're obviously
a unique nation and Jewish, but they're pretty secular.
(20:20):
It's not like every citizen of the nation, the current nation
state of Israel is, you know, anAbraham clone or.
Like, sure. So that actually leads into an
important question. I think that's also being asked
here. So the person asked the
question, There's a popular belief that Christians should
support and defend the nation orgovernment of Israel.
Should we? And then they go on, they say,
(20:42):
if so, what if the government isor becomes corrupted?
Are we still bound to support and defend it?
Yeah, we're like tangibly crossing a line now from
theology to politics. Sure, right.
Well, and that's because it's right what we believe about
ultimate things is going to havean impact on what we think about
all things policy in the real world.
So so that that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I think that I think
(21:05):
when people think of Jerusalem or when think people think of
the nation of Israel today, theythink of Jerusalem.
And yet it's we should maybe thinking about Tel Aviv or some
other city. You know, it's, it's more than
just, yeah, they protect and, you know, maintain the holy,
holy, holiest sites of a shared,you know, a shared holy site for
(21:27):
Jews, Christians and Muslims. And yeah, I know a thing or two
about Islam. It's not the holiest site for
Islam. It's maybe the 4th or 5th.
And yet you can do it that way. You will.
But there's a difference betweenministry to to Muslims and Jews.
And there's less of a heartbreakwith Muslims because they just
(21:47):
flat out reject Jesus. Jews, they are longing for Jesus
and yet reject him. And that's I think a
heartbreaking thing, like we said, but we're thinking of this
now. We're in a political
conversation and current nation state of Israel.
Should Christians defend Israel full stop?
The answer is no. And yet in in current political
(22:09):
climate, I defend Israel. I think that's a great way to
say it. It's hard.
It's hard to totally wade through these waters without
getting a little muddy because it's so complex.
But we're, we've talked about this before.
It's like you're dealing with a terrorist organization and a
government. Yeah, right, right.
Hamas versus Israel is like apples and orange.
(22:30):
You're dealing with a terrorist organization wanting to
annihilate everyone in that border of the nation state of
Israel, Right? From the river to the sea is
their slogan. Want to?
Annihilate Israel. I want they're saying let's we
want genocide. That's that's what their stated
goal is. A nation has to, a government
(22:50):
has to respond to that to protect its people.
So I'm going to defend the, you know.
So we're saying that both of us here, both of us here, our
political position would be to say in the in the battle between
Israel and Hamas that we think Israel was the victims on
October 7th, 2023 and they have a right to defend themselves.
So that's politically where we stand and what makes sense.
Hamas is a terrorist organizations.
(23:11):
That's some terrible things. Now, to be clear, that's we're
not saying that Israel as a nation or a government has been
perfect or anything like. That or that they deserve our
defense in every regard. Sure, in perpetuity, that's.
Not, yeah. But so in general in the
conflict and, you know, the, youknow, the situation is
developing day by day, week by week.
So, you know, even by the time this airs, you know, some of
(23:33):
those, some of what we're saying, you know, new
developments will have come. But we're saying is in general
in that conflict, you know, Israel's the ones defending
themselves. So that's a political position.
But theologically, we're saying that we don't get there from a
theological place. We get there from a just looking
at it as any nation on the earthand what makes sense, what seems
(23:56):
morally right, not for a theological reason.
And it's important to realize that that's that's not how a lot
of American Christians get there.
So this is where it comes back. Because more of a
dispensationalist. Yeah.
So the the two positions are called dispensationalism and
covenant theology. Dispensationalism is the
opposite of what we're saying. They would say that there are
(24:16):
two peoples of God, the Jews andthe church, which we of course
would say is the opposite of what the New Testament says.
And so they they would say that,yeah, that Israel is still God's
people and is different than thechurch.
There's, there's, there's prophecy yet to be fulfilled for
them. I mean, one way that I heard a
(24:37):
classical dispensationalist say at one time in a in a talk they
were giving, as they said in theOld Testament, God was on the
phone with Israel. And then in the New Testament,
God puts them on hold, puts downthe phone, He picks up a
different phone with the church,but then eventually the rapture
is going to happen. He's going to put, he's going to
(24:57):
put down the phone with the church and then he's going to
pick back up the phone with Israel.
That's so that's their take. On it, my general understanding
of dispensationalism that seems like an accurate description of
I think I think the average dispensationalist would agree
with that. And there's there's different
flavors of dispensationalist. It's not like they're all
monolithic, but it's a pretty consistent, coherent theory of
(25:17):
how to read the Bible, how to how to divide the word of God
rightly. Is is a verse and that's what
they go to is like just trying to divide the word of God
rightly and to see it as distinct dispensations versus a
covenant. Theology would say, yeah, there
are different dispensations, different time periods where God
deals uniquely with his people, but they're they're not the
story. Is unfolding.
(25:37):
They're not hard brakes, you know, there's no hanging up and
putting on hold. It's this is developing, this is
building on top of. And I think that's actually, I
think I, I want to say that put on hold pick up is a good
description of a dispensationalist background.
Yeah. And so that's so, So what I
guess what I want people to understand is that you're, when
you're talking to people out there, they're going to, some
(25:58):
people are going to have that belief.
So they, they disagree with whatwe're saying.
They have a theological conviction that leads them to
support the nation of Israel. But we're saying that's that's
not really the best biblical approach.
And we are so influenced by dispensational theology because
it's very American. Totally very American and that
is for for those who don't know,that's what the Left Behind
(26:20):
book. Series, yes, that's kind of that
point. That's that's what that is, is
that's dispensationalism. And so especially through those
books, it became so popularized that it has really shaped
American Christianity a lot. Yeah, that's why I was sick,
that that's what I was thinking of when I opened with.
I wonder if people will be surprised by our take on this.
Sure that we're we're just making this distinction between
(26:41):
political and theological. And biblical.
We need a reformed version of Left Behind series.
Logan, you need to write it. I don't know if that was a
millennial or post millennial. Ours wouldn't be quite as
exciting as theirs. Right, That's the problem.
Jesus comes back. I know, right?
Right, Right. Like a thief in the night,
right? No, I think that kind of goes to
(27:02):
to get more just to toss out more political or more
theological terms just to say like this is complex.
There's more depth here that we're not going to be able to
get into. But like when you read biblical
prophecy, are you reading it as this is something that has
already happened, is currently happening, or none of it's
happened and it will one day happen?
And that's kind of that distinction, like the preterist,
(27:25):
partial preterist, futurist typeof distinctions.
When you read prophecy, when Jesus talks about the day of the
Lord, when Revelation talks about things like this, you can
just go in so many different directions because of that
theologically. And we're trying to keep it
simple and say we are saying thenation, modern nation state of
(27:46):
Israel is distinct from Old Testament because the question
is who are the real people of God, true Israel?
And it's those that never. We're trying to keep this
simple. I don't.
Know if repented, repented put their faith in Jesus, right?
It all goes back to Jesus, as we're saying.
That's right. Amen.
Even politically, the reason we arrive at our conclusion
politically about supporting Israel in this current situation
(28:08):
is goes back to Jesus too. He, he's a God of justice.
He wants to see justice upheld. And a government is trying to
provide justice for its people, Right.
So then my question to you, Pastor John, is, and I almost
tried talking to you about this before the show, but you're
like, stop, we have we can talk about it when we have mics in
(28:29):
front of our faces. So here's the pressure on you is
this was a listener question. Is Israel in full rebellion to
God, the current nation of Israel?
So, yeah, and I think the way you were saying earlier, I mean,
we have to distinguish, are we talking about the nation?
Are we talking about individuals?
And I think that's an interesting question, but so
(28:51):
I'll start with the simpler answer.
The simpler answer is if, if, yeah, if you're a Jewish person
and you're not saying that Jesusis the Messiah that the Old
Testament prophesied would come and you receive him as Lord and
Savior, then you are rejecting God's Messiah.
And that is rebellion. And that's not just if you're a
Jewish person. That's if you're.
Sure. For anybody that's true.
For anybody, it's true. If you're rejecting Jesus, then
(29:11):
you're rejecting God's Savior, the Messiah for us, for sure.
But yeah, for, for, for a Jew, that's what they've been longing
for. They've been waiting and
expecting the Messiah to come. He he has come and his name is
Jesus, but unfortunately they haven't received him.
Can a nation be in rebellion to God?
That's a really interesting question.
(29:32):
I think I think the short answeris yes, because I think I'm
thinking of especially in the prophets in the Bible.
I mean, there are, there are plenty of passages in Scripture
that call out entire nations. And so I think, yes, it's fair.
I think actually in the Bible, nation is probably like the
largest group that God addresses, right?
(29:52):
Like God addresses nations, He addresses families, he addresses
individuals, he addresses his church.
Yeah, God addresses his whole nation.
So I'd say, yeah, it's true thata whole nation can be in
rebellion against God. What?
There's a lot of directions we can go with.
That I know. I I think you're right.
I think it's it's hard with the the the what I get hung up on is
(30:14):
full is the nation of Israel in full rebellion to God.
It's like, well, I think of United States of America, we
have taxpayer funded abortion. Yeah, well, that's where I
consider that rebellion to the to the, the God who knits us in
our mother's womb. Like I consider that rebellion.
And yet do we have laws that arejust Yeah.
(30:38):
So it's not like, so I'm trying to parse out like, what does it
mean to be in full rebellion to God?
Is every law in the books in Israel, you know, breaking?
Right. And that's why I, that's why I
hesitated to say more is because, yeah, like I said in
the in the Bible, the prophets do address whole nations.
But yeah, we know that each nation, including ours, has pros
and cons, right? There are things that we're
doing that are in line with whatGod wants.
(31:00):
And there are things that we're doing that are definitely not in
line with. What God wants and I think
that's a good place to land the plane for the question.
I, I do think as far as our answer to, to take it to another
angle, I think of one of the only non Jewish people in the
Bible to be given the title Messiah.
(31:23):
Do you know who it is? It's like a Bible trivia
question. It's Cyrus.
He's given the title of God's anointed.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because God is sending him to toenact justice on his people.
And yet the nation that Cyrus LED was in rebellion to God,
(31:46):
right? And were judged for that.
Right. And yet God used them.
And so they weren't rebelling against God.
And in that sense, you know, he was using them.
But so it's it's complicated. Sure.
You know, totally. And I just, yeah, I guess I go
back to what you said of like the question, you said it
(32:08):
perfectly. I don't want to restate.
Yeah, I guess I assume at the most basic level question is if
a, if a Jewish person hasn't received Jesus, yes, they are
rebelling against God's. They're not receiving him yet,
for sure. Which, OK, here, last question.
I think we'll have time to hit the listener writes this.
What would you say to someone who says that the Jews are the
(32:29):
only people going to heaven? And I'll start my, my quick
answers to say if they're sayingthat they're probably an
Orthodox Jew, right? I mean, that's, I mean, I'm just
saying like that, that's not actually I, I, I don't know
where that question exactly is coming from, but that's, that's
not really a Christian a, a question coming from a
Christian, right? That's if you're talking to
somebody who believes only the Jews are going to heaven,
(32:51):
they're probably an Orthodox Jew.
And what would I say to them? I would say to them, Hey, let's
sit down and like the Old Testament, because Jesus is the
Messiah you've been looking for.That's what.
I would say yes, yeah, I got nothing to add to that.
That that's that's exactly, Yeah, let's look at.
So if there's, if there's somebody that's calling
themselves a Christian and saying that, then I've got a lot
of questions. I'm I'm not quite sure what that
what that means or what they who's the Messiah?
Yeah, question, what does? That mean, oh man, for us as
(33:14):
Christians, it is important thatas we think about these issues,
we think about it through the lens of the Bible, that we
really understand the storyline of Scripture, how it unfolds and
how it is that we relate to the people of Israel historically
and even today. And again, the key important
point is that nobody is saved byworks, nobody is saved by
bloodline. People are saved by faith in
(33:36):
Jesus Christ. Yes, And those who have that
faith, they are the people of God.
Well, thanks so much everyone. Have a great week.
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