Freight Fraud, Fake Carriers & Broken Trust: Angela Froning on What Trucking Gets Wrong

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome back to That's Delivering.
I'm your host, Truck and Ray,and today we have a special
episode, one that I'm sureyou're going to enjoy because
it's all about Matt's andLouisville and our special
guests of what they were able towhat they're able to glean from
the show and also a little bitabout what they've been through
over the years.
Um, you know, Matt's is one oftheir biggest uh events that we

(00:20):
have all year.
It's always about getting a goodpulse check, what people are
talking about, what's shiftingand what things are are changing
or what direction they're goingin.
So today I wanted to circle backto that, not just about what
happened, but what actuallystuck after everyone went home
and went back to work.
And to do that, we have AngelaFronning joining us.
Angela brings perspective thatsits right in the middle of the

(00:44):
industry, working closely withcarriers, drivers, and the
brokerage side.
She's someone who's not afraidto speak honestly and about
what's working and what's not.
So, Angela, we appreciate youcoming on.
Angela, I'm very happy to haveyou here.
How you doing?

SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
I'm great.
How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Doing well, yeah, not too bad at all.
Um, can't complain, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09):
Another day living the dream.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11):
Yeah.
So yeah, you know about thatfirsthand.
You know, I know uh we wish wehad you uh visually here, you
know, but uh we got you on theaudio, um, unfortunately with
the internet um situation.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
Yeah, technical issues.
Yeah, I lost uh power andinternet here about 20 minutes
ago.
So we'll get it up eventually.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
Yes, one day I can my studio and uh you can come do
it in person, so that'd be a lotbetter.
So right now we have the um youknow do things over streaming.
So thank goodness for streaming.
So I'm glad.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
Yeah, no, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
So let's uh uh start with uh how you got started.
Um, you know, a lot of peoplelike to know the background of
what things happen.
Um what's one thing that uh umgot you into trucking?

SPEAKER_02 (01:55):
I um actually got into trucking back in the late
90s.
I answered a job, uh job ad inthe newspaper.
So that tells everybody how oldI am because we weren't doing, I
don't even think monster wasaround yet.
And even if it was, like mostpeople were not going there to
get their candidates.
So I just kind of added, uh, youknow, answered an ad in the

(02:17):
paper, and I had to go in.
It was really interesting andgive take this like it's kind of
like a standardized test.
And because I was 18 years oldat the time, I was really good
at taking standardized tests.
So I went in there and knockedthat out, and they were like,
Oh, we never even had anyonefinish this before.
So I was like, Oh, well, uh, Iguess that's good news.

(02:40):
So I went in and interviewed,and um, here I am almost 30
years later.
You know, of course I've changedcompanies a couple times, but I
started out doing um courierwork.
Um, and my very first job was Ijust audited um our driver
manifest every day becauseeverything we did was based on
accessorial.
So if there was a lift gate oryou had to provide a skid, or I

(03:04):
mean, I can't even think of themall.
That's way too long ago.
And then I got into um dispatch,and that's um what I did.
I did dispatch and low planningfor another like seven or eight
years, and then I went intosales for probably about
probably about another eightyears after that, and then about

(03:25):
12 years ago, I started myfreight brokerage um agency.
So I don't run my own agency orI don't have my own MC number,
but I am an agent for Stutzmanlogistics, and um yeah, so I've
just kind of been all I've doneit all.
Like when I did the courierstuff, like we had to go out and
do uh pickups and deliveries.
So um that was just part of ourjob.

(03:48):
So I have seen the driver's sideof it, you know.
I've loaded trucks a little bit,you know, I've pretty much done
everything other than like I'venever gone over the road in a
truck.
I've always, you know, gone homeat the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
So nice.
That's amazing.
I mean, what kept you in it?
Because the industry isn't foreveryone.

SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
Um, I love the people in this, and there's a
lot of um not so great people,but once you meet your little
clique, and then you find outthat that clique is associated
with this click, I mean, youjust get kind of entrenched in
this network that is justunbelievable.
It's I mean, like they say, it'sa small world, right?

(04:26):
And in trucking, it's justaddictively small.
Um, and then I got actuallyreally burnt out about two years
ago.
Um, and I was thinking, youknow, I kind of wanted to do
something else because there wasa lot of this fraud and other
issues happening, and I just waslike, this isn't fun anymore.
Um, and what really changed thatfor me was getting reconnected

(04:48):
again in a network of people.
So it's always been the peoplethat had kept me in this.
I love the blue collar type ofmentality, everyday people, and
just helping people fix problemsthat they have.
Like I'm all about that.

SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
That's awesome.
I love that factor as well.
I mean, I know it takes all ofus to keep the wheels turning.
Um, but yeah, I love uh speakingup for the blue collar.
Um yeah, I think there'ssomething to be said about that,
uh keeping that muscle going,you know, atrophy is not good.
So you want to keep stimulatingthose individuals that are are
using those physical attributesof themselves to keep the

(05:24):
industry going.
So appreciate that, man.
That's yeah, no problem.
Yeah.
So what do you think aboutpeople um misunderstood mostly
about broker role today?

SPEAKER_02 (05:35):
Um, I think the most misunderstood is the amount of
control that we actually haveregarding pricing.
That is the number one thing.
We don't control that.
The market dictates that, andthese customers are all savvy
enough that they can get on allthese kinds of tools online.
There's even a thing called, Ithink it's like freight GPT.

(05:57):
It's like chat GPT, and you canjust go on there and ask it
rates.
So customers are very savvy, andeven if those rates don't
reflect the current market,they're still making their
budget and their analysis onwhat they plan to spend for the
year based on that information.
So unless you have unless yourbroker has a really, really good

(06:17):
relationship with theircustomer, they may not really be
in control over that price.
So getting emotional aboutthings is just kind of a waste
of time.
All you really just need to beis like, I'm I don't want to do
that.
I mean, to me, that's the sameas getting mad that if I'm
trying to sell my car andsomebody wants to buy it for
$1,000 because it's all theyhave, but it's worth$10,000.

(06:38):
I can't be mad about that.
I just have to go find a newbuyer.

unknown (06:42):
Nice.

SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
Nice.
I like that straight to thepoint there.
So you built a reputation forbeing very pro driver and pro
carrier.
Um, how did you get that going?
How did that start for you?

SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Uh well, I started out as a carrier, so I only
became a broker like 12 yearsago, and I didn't even really
think that I was planning to dothis.
Um, I just kind of needed, itwas like I needed a job at the
time.
And um, that's just kind of howit worked out.
But um I lost my train ofthought.

(07:15):
I'm sorry, what did you just askme?
I just started off on a tangent.

SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
No, you're good.
I was thinking the thereputation that you've been able
to.

SPEAKER_02 (07:23):
Oh, the reputation, yeah.
So I really never planned ondoing this, and it it just sort
of like was something thathappened.
So I just I guess I neverstopped thinking about what it
was like to be a carrier.
And honestly, it is a littlenicer to be a broker versus a
dispatcher because once I sendyour truck to where it goes, I'm
done thinking about that truck.

(07:45):
Like I I hope that driver, youknow, does well in his life and
everything, but I don't reallyhave to consider that.
So it is, I think that's whatleads a lot of people to just be
like, they don't have to care.
But you know, it's not, we justcan't, you know.
I so I think I just startedthinking of this.
You can't think of ittransactionally because even

(08:07):
though you may not see thatdriver again, I don't know, you
ever think of like, okay, youget a bad uh delivery for UPS.
And so now, like every drivernow for UPS, like you just hate
UPS or like FedEx or whoeverdelivers to your house.
We can't make it transactionallike that.

(08:28):
You know what I mean?
Like we all have to kind of feedinto the system.
And if you want things tocontinue to be good or you want
them to get better, you have toput that out there because you
can't take out the lastshipment, your issues with your
last shipment on your currentdriver.
So it's just really for me, it'smore just about I have to
continually wipe the slate cleanin my head, and I have to work

(08:48):
sometimes on not taking thingspersonally.
And as long as I don't do that,then it's like I just try to
treat people how I want to betreated.
And I guess that goes a long wayinto establishing that
reputation, which is reallynice.
But really, it's just me justtrying to like make it not so
transactional in my own mind sothat I continue to think about

(09:09):
each next step along in theprocess.

SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
I like that.
I think that's something to besaid about that.
I mean, your experience, uh,your reputation goes into play
there for you know people to betrustworthy.
And you know, how do you, Iguess, differentiate, separate
the two?
Someone you trust in a spaceversus someone you want to
avoid.

SPEAKER_02 (09:31):
Well, the first thing you have to do is you have
to talk to people.
Um, that's something that Inoticed that people really stop
doing.
And I think that's what led to alot of fraud.
We just started doing everythingover the internet.
You do things on email, but youdon't pick up the phone and hear
how somebody talks.
I can pick up pretty quicklywhether or not somebody's full

(09:53):
of it.
You know, it's not thatdifficult.
You know, if you can't if youask really straightforward
questions, and that's the thing,just start thinking of like
really detailed questions youcould ask somebody, and if they
don't have a quick answer foryou, they probably I mean
they're lying somewhere.
And I people don't like to becalled a liar, like people are

(10:13):
really sensitive about that, butthen there's this whole other
people are like, well, you'lljust fake it till you make it,
you'll figure it out as you go.
And it's like, no, that is alie.
Like, if you told somebody youknow how to do something and
you're figuring it out as yougo, that's not the same thing.
So yeah, you just have to reallytalk to people and ask tough
questions.
And sometimes those questionsthat some people are shy, they

(10:36):
don't want to hurt someone'sfeelings or get yelled at, and
you just kind of like they say,trucking is not for the weak,
and neither is freight brokers.
So you just got to be willing toask those questions.

SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
Nice.
That is mad.
So sitting in your position, um,I mean, that you have seen quite
a bit, so that's awesome toshare that with individuals out
there that you know they knowthat hey, I got that gut feeling
as well.
So and yeah, you know, you'reyou're the you're also doing the
same thing.
So I'm really glad to have youon Angela.
Um, let's talk about Matt's alittle bit.

(11:07):
Um yeah, definitely.
Yeah, yeah, that was a great,great show.
A lot of people great positiveadded, you know, positive
feedback from after the show.
And um, when you look back init, what actually stuck with
you?

SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
I think there was a couple of things, but first I
just want to touch on how manypeople they were that were there
because that was my first timeattending.

SPEAKER_00 (11:30):
Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
I think it was about 70,000 people.
So just think about how manypeople that is getting together
that are really pro-trucking.
I don't normally get toexperience something like that,
so that really stuck with me.
You hear a lot of negativityabout our industry, a lot of
complaining, was dealing withproblems and stuff, and so it

(11:55):
was just really cool to have awhole bunch just have 70,000
people all dedicated to likemaking this industry better.
It was uh big energy.

SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
Nice, yeah.
I I say the same.
I mean, I think that was greatto see the show out, show up and
show out there, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
And then the other thing was just how much um
government people we had comingout, you know, like it was
really nice to see you know theDOT and the FMCSA actually have
people out on the floor talkingto people and going to some of
their meetings and listening tothem talk was just all amazing.
Uh, I mean, it was great to getin front of people and get

(12:37):
business cards for people thatare actually writing the laws
and they're actually gonna makechanges.
Yeah, I I really honestly didnot think that that was
something that I would ever getthe opportunity to do until like
think about a year ago is when Istarted uh volunteering with
different groups that weregiving me opportunities for
that, and it just blew me away.
And everybody's like, Oh, areyou uh pro-politician now?

(13:00):
And I was like, No, not by along shot.
Um, but I think there's a bigdifference between a politician
and somebody that's just theredoing their job.
And so we got to meet the peopleat Mats that are actually just
there doing their job, and thatwas really cool.

SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
Yeah, I think that's what people want most of all.
So if they see that, I think thea lot of respect is done for
that, especially after you know,a lot of disappointments.
So was there anything you saw orheard that that changed how you
were thinking about theindustry, you know, when you
when you first got there, andbut now afterwards going to
Matt's you, you're like, okay,uh, this is different.

SPEAKER_02 (13:36):
Well, I went volunteering with the driver
legitimacy initiative, and um,that's the guy that wrote the
framework for Delilah's Law.
So um I think the one thing thatstruck me that the most leaving
there was just um this wholewhat we're gonna do about the

(13:59):
foreign influence in ourindustry situation.
I mean, it's just going toconstantly leave wheels turning
in my head for a long time.
And I had thought a year agothat this was a thing that we
were just gonna deal with.
And so leaving mats, like I hadheard that there was people that

(14:19):
were trying to change.
I just I don't like I I've seenI've been in this industry
decades and change is so slow.
So, what really stuck me is howfast people are actually moving
to get this industry changed andto tighten down on these things
that are happening.
There's actually push andinitiative where I just I felt
like it was going to an emptyhole for the last five years.

(14:41):
I really did, and I that's why Igot kind of burnt out because
it's that you know, like I toldyou before, it's not fun anymore
when you're just like scared ofwhat could possibly, you know,
the other shoot-of-fall orsomething bad could happen.
So it just was a big relief towalk away and knowing that there
are people um that care so much.
I didn't expect to leave andfeel that weight lifted off my

(15:03):
shoulders.

SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
Nice.
Yeah, the same here too.
I had some people that wanted toinvest in a brokerage and they
put hit the pause button becausethey're like, man, that's just
nuts over there with uh all thefreight fraud.
Maybe we should uh hang tightfor a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
Yeah, and you know it's good to hear people
actually um thinking for achange instead of just I felt
like from 2020 to 2021,everybody was just trying to get
in this industry because theyheard, you know, we needed help,
which was true, but the help weneeded was not necessarily just
bodies thrown at the problem.
So I think that's another thing.

(15:40):
I don't think it's just thatthere was fraud.
I think a lot of stuff iswell-meaning.
A lot of people get theirinformation from somebody they
trust.
So if the person you trust hasbad information, they're gonna
give that to you, and thenyou're gonna give that to
somebody who trusts you, andyou're all gonna think, oh, it's
okay to cut this corner on myinsurance or do this or do that.

(16:04):
And it's not okay, and it'sgonna end up catching up to you.

SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (16:09):
So it's good to see all the education that's finally
getting out there to actuallyhelp people to prevent them from
kind of falling into thesetraps.
I mean, the one thing is like Ithink some good language is
actually getting out there nowfrom warning people about
selling their MCs.
Because I know a lot of people,myself included, were like,
well, I'll just buy an MC, andif things really hit the fan, I

(16:30):
can just sell that later.
And that's not good, that's thatthat's gonna be going away
entirely.
And um, but I mean, moreover,just learning about all the
steps you got to take when youreally sell your MC and the fact
that you could really end up injail if you forget to sign one
simple piece of paperwork.
So just hearing that word, getout there, knowing that stuff

(16:52):
like that has got to getstopped.
And that was, you know, that'ssome of the, like I said, just
throwing bodies at the problembecause those people, if they
don't know that, they don't knowhow to vet their carriers
properly.
And it's not that they'remeaning to do harm, they just
never got the proper training inthe first place.

SPEAKER_00 (17:09):
Yeah, it's pretty aggressive, even if you know you
just want to get your MC numberor you know, the all of the uh
you know requirements that youneed to do to move your load
across state line, how manyphone calls you get?
I mean, it's insane.

SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
I mean, it can be really insane, and that's the
other thing I just would telldrivers if you asked about
misperception, and sometimes Ithink there's this misperception
that these tracking programsthat like I want to watch what
you're doing and what you're Ireally don't.
I just need to have, I just needto know where he's at because we

(17:44):
do get a ton of phone calls, andwe're not trying to make their
lives harder, we're trying tomake everybody's life easier.
That's why we got theseprograms, and we can just see,
oh, you're in Lincoln, Nebraska.
Okay, I know where you're at.
So um, I know I don't know.
I I know they have privacyconcerns and everything, but
that and I just would like totell drivers we're not trying to
invade your privacy.
I promise you.

(18:06):
We really could care less whatyou're doing.
We just need our freightdelivered.

SPEAKER_00 (18:12):
All right, yeah, it's a lot of money involved.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yep.
I mean, man, you're you're doingit.
That's uh I can tell in yourvoice there.
You're you've been in theindustry in the thick of it.
Um, so yeah, a lot of the thingsthat you see at Matt's, what's
something that you know peoplearen't paying enough attention
to yet?
What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 (18:33):
People are not paying enough attention yet to
um certificates of insurance.
When you get a certificate ofinsurance, it is only a
snapshot.
So there are uh lots ofcompanies now coming out with
live insurance verification, andI strongly suggest people to
invest into one of those tools.
One of them is Freight Validate,they've got um a mesh VI

(18:57):
integration.
Um, and I know Highways hasanother one, um, but that one's
a little bit more expensive.
So I would just I I would pushpeople, and if you're not able
to do that, reach out, startasking questions about how you
can live check insurance,because what these carriers will
do is they'll call and they'llget someone put on their
insurance, or they'll up theirinsurance rate just long enough

(19:19):
to get the load secured, andthen they'll call them back.
You know, they might not evenhave picked up the freight, or
they might wait till it's onboard, and then they'll call up
and they'll say, Hey, cancelthat.
I don't I I changed my mind, youknow, because they don't want to
spend the money.
So it's very dangerous out here.
Um, and then the other thing isalso these insurance, you'd be

(19:40):
surprised how many of them havean exclusion for fraud or um
company.
I think I can't remember theexact terminology, but it's
something to the extent of likeif any of the officers of the
company are dishonest, like theythat's not cause for a claim.
So basically, like I don't evenknow, I don't even know how it's

(20:01):
legal to have insurance.
It's like to cover a load, sayyou have insurance, but your
insurance doesn't really coverthat load.
I don't, I don't really know howthat's legal, but these guys are
in these gray areas, and thatcould leave you uncovered.
So just take the extra fiveminutes to ask the information,
10 minutes, whatever.
It's way better than you know, a$40,000 claim that's not going

(20:25):
to be covered.

SPEAKER_00 (20:26):
Yeah, I watched uh I watched my wife look at her
contract for you know getting asales sales job, you know, sales
manager or whatever, and justcombing through that, you're
like, what?
If I don't do this, you know,just there's all these little
things you need to look at.
I think we spent a couple hourslooking at it, and it was like,
man, this this is this is not agood contract.

(20:49):
Just because you have it in handdoesn't mean it's good.

SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
And then the other thing I would say that brokers
need to watch out for is justbecause you uh have someone
validated in your system doesnot mean that that information
has not changed.
So people need to set up flagsin their system to review
things, um, to make sure,because companies, like I talked

(21:12):
about before, they sell their MCto somebody and that looks like
a good company to you and yoursystem, and then overnight they
can turn into a bad apple.
So just really keep an eye outfor contact information that's
changed on the FMCSA and makesure everything matches.
And again, pick up the phone andcall people and make sure that
the person you're talking to isreally that person because that

(21:34):
could just be somebody thathijacked their email.

SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
So what's yeah, I mean, that's really hard when
you see all those red flags andyou pick up the phone and it
sounds okay.
Like the person sounds like theygot their stuff together, but
it's someone that kind ofswooped in and hijacked the
company.
So what do you tell thoseindividuals when you say, Man,
I'm getting something differenton this side?

SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
I mean, honestly, you just gotta tell.
Them.
I gotta look at other options.
I'm sorry.
And again, it sucks to givepeople bad news, especially when
they're begging, like, oh, Ihave a driver who needs to get
home and everything.
But remember, everybody has asob story.
And you'll be surprised.
I had I've had loads doublebrokered over$50.
And I thought that was crazy.

(22:18):
And then someone told me you gotto understand, Angela,$50 in
some countries is like food fora week.
So they will take that risk.

SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
Wow.
Yeah.
That's uh it's amazing um whatthe value of money it does for
people and the choices theychoose to make.
Um compromise, you know, andwhen people's morals can't be
the same as yours becausethey're in different situations.

SPEAKER_02 (22:43):
And I hate to say it, but the further removed you
are from somebody, probably theless likely you are to care
about them.
So I I have worked with plentyof overseas offices and they've
done good a good job.
But I I just tell people to becautious with that and extra vet
those people because when you're5,000 miles away from somebody,
it's a lot and you come from adifferent culture, different

(23:04):
background, differenteverything, it's a lot easier
not to care about that person.
And I just don't know that someof these people, some of these
people, I don't think theyreally care whether or not it's
safe for that truck to operateor, you know, oh sure, go an
extra thousand miles on yourbrakes.
We'll be fine, we'll figure itout.
I don't think that matters tothem so much as if their family
was right here.

SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
Right, right.
So man, relationships in theindustry, that's huge.
Uh where do you think thebiggest disconnect is right now
between brokers, carriers, anddrivers?

SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
Um, I think the biggest disconnect is um
competition.
We let ourselves get so caughtup in competition that like even
brokers don't talk to eachother.
Um carriers, carriers morelikely talk to each other
because they're gonna networkand be like, I'm getting this
from this person.

(23:56):
But we don't talk about our ourpains together enough that we
can work together and go back tothese shippers and solve them.
We just let ourselves get caughtup in the competition to get the
load and get the freight and getthe contract, etc., to where we
stop kind of like going back andbeing like, you know what, this
is uh this is kind of a hard oneto me.

(24:18):
Let me go back to some otherbrokers and see if they are
agreeing to do that, or let metalk to the carriers first and
see if they even have driversthat are going to be able to do
this.
Before I put out this big uh RFPand get locked into this
business, you know, people causetheir really their own problems
just by not being wanting tonetwork.
And I do see that.

(24:39):
I don't know if it's justbecause I'm networking so
heavily, but I do see thatcoming to an end.
And I think that's another thingthat was so encouraging about
Max was just I don't see peoplebeing so petty about the, oh, I
can't give you any informationabout me because you might steal
it and you know go after mycustomers.
I don't think that that's as bigof a deal as it used to be.
So the more we talk, the moretransparent we are.

(25:01):
I'm I I know that there's thisbroker transparency law where
people want us to share rates onevery load.
I don't know that I'mnecessarily for that because my
rate doesn't necessarily meananything to you.
That that if I if you see thatI'm moving something for$5,000,
there may be another delivery onthe end of that.

(25:22):
There may be that may be part ofa round trip.
There be maybe money hidden inthere because I uh the customer
didn't pay enough on the lastload and they were like, hey, I
need you to do me a favor.
I'm gonna slide you extra moneyon the next one.
We work out these kinds ofthings as a broker, so um,
that's where I'll just kind ofget a little iffy about
transparency on pricing.
But I think there is sometransparency about rates that

(25:45):
needs to happen.
Um, and I think that's a bigdisconnect because if we all got
together, I know we're notsupposed to price fix, but for
crying out loud, if we all couldcome to some kind of
understanding that you don'tmove under this rate per mile, I
think that that would go a longway towards making things
better.

SPEAKER_00 (26:03):
Nice.
I mean, that's uh that's a bigproblem.
I think people want to makethemselves seem more than they
are.
Um, I mean, it's trucking.
I mean, why do we need to polishit up so good to where it's more
than what it is?
I mean, we already know it'smessy, we already know logistics
is it's a it's a tough show, youknow.
It's not right, right.

SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
Yeah, but be honest about what you're facing, be
honest about what you're payingfor things, um, like repairs and
stuff like that, so that we allknow and can help make better
decisions on this.
And I just don't think there'sbeen enough of that.
And then you of course you getthe big uh broker's firms that
are like they don't they hirepeople fresh out of college and
they just tell them, here's somepeople to call.

(26:45):
They have no idea about any ofthis.
So I think you know, if we couldput out some kind of more large
industry information to wherepeople actually had an idea of
how everything worked, thatwould be great.
I just have no idea what thatlooks like.
I just think more and more, moreand more networking and
conversations just need to takeplace.

SPEAKER_00 (27:05):
Yeah, I think that's why I love that you came on the
show and speak honestly andtruthfully about what's going on
versus uh hey, I'm gonna try tosell myself, uh, make myself
more than what it is so that Ican get that doesn't work
anymore.
I think people with um beingbombarded by all the stuff
that's going on in the internet,you know, AI, fake this, fake

(27:25):
that, people are getting tiredof the fake.
It's kind of fake overload.
So leave that real connection,you know, and that's that's what
I think that's what I love mostabout where things are headed,
is I think people want to getback to what was once lost, you
know.
That's uh yeah, I think that'ssomething that people want, you
know.
They they want that realtangible thing, um, versus you

(27:48):
know, the fluff and you knowthat's right.
I totally agree.
Yeah, yeah.
And I I don't I don't see why weshould, you know, feel bad about
that or feel like we're givingup something.
I think that's great.
I think that's progress.

SPEAKER_02 (28:02):
So yeah, because I really think that fake stuff
hurts, ends up hurting a lot ofpeople because then they go out
and they look and they think,oh, well, I'm the only one
that's struggling like this, andthat's just not true.
I mean, no matter what it is,that job you have, like they all
have their pain points.
Um, but yeah, trucking is notglamorous.
So anybody that's trying to tomake it seem so is really kind

(28:25):
of making people that strugglelook like they're having an
extra hard time and they're not.
That's just that's just whateverybody's going through.

SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
Nice, nicely said.
So, what are some small thingsthat um immediately build trust
and the small things that youknow lose trust fast?

SPEAKER_02 (28:42):
Um, you know, it's really simple.
Just answer your phone call umor reply to, you know, well, you
can reply to a text or whatever,but just get back to people
quickly.
You know, don't leave peoplewaiting.
And if you don't have an answerfor something, go ahead and tell
the person, like, hey, I'mworking on that, but right now I
don't know.
When you leave people waitingaround for you, that's when the

(29:04):
second guessing and the mistruststarts to build up in people's
heads.
And I always used to tellpeople, you know, if you don't
tell me anything, I just startto get a whole bunch of question
marks that fill up in my head,and eventually they start
banging into each other andcausing chaos.
Nobody wants that.
So just, you know, communicate,communicate, communicate.
And the people who communicatebetter, I always find are the

(29:26):
most trustworthy.

SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
Awesome.
I mean, you mentioned some kidscoming in straight out of
college.
What's if uh you're new to thebrokerage today or to uh freight
brokerage, the logisticsindustry.
What's one mindset that you needto have right away so that you
don't burn bridges?

SPEAKER_02 (29:44):
Remember that everybody knows everybody.
Wow.
At the end of the day, I meanthat that guy may not know that
guy, but he knows someone whodoes.
And your circles are gonna getsmaller and smaller the longer
you're in the industry, and youneed people.
You can't do this on your own.
So, and that's the other thing,it's just when you're starting

(30:05):
to lose your temper with people,because it can get really easily
to do.
Just remember, you know, countto 10.
You can't lose your temper.
You're gonna need to talk to thekeep talking to this person, and
people work a lot better whenthey're not being yelled at,
even if they deserve to beyelled at.
Like you have to keep it uh calmand just keep yourself measured.

(30:28):
And if you get stressed out,reach out to people and talk,
and you know, even if it meansgoing on LinkedIn or reaching
out outside your company and getsome good coping skills for the
stuff that you're going through.
Because it can get reallystressful.

SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
Yeah, I mean, it could be that way just going to
get something to eat nowadays.
I know exactly.
Just get a meal at Chipotle andain't got no meat there.

SPEAKER_02 (30:52):
I know.
I went one time, they didn'thave any chips.
I'm like, how do you know howchips does it?
The grocery store is rightthere.
Like, I don't understand.
And then you're hungry andyou're like, I just want a
Chipotle, dang it.

SPEAKER_00 (31:06):
Gotta go all on the other side of town now.

SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
Oh, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Oh man, so industry issues.
Uh, you know, just kind of getyour perspective.
Uh what's one of the biggestissues that you're paying
attention to for for you andyour your company?
What's one thing you guys gotyour eye on the ball for?

SPEAKER_02 (31:23):
Um, we have to keep our eye on the ball for these
chameleon character carriers.
That's the biggest thing we'rehaving to watch right now.
We just had two more that we umjust cut off today.
Um, and I'm in a lot ofdifferent chat groups and
everything where brokers find,like, hey, check this MC number.
This is connected to so and so.

(31:43):
Can't remember.
Um, it's not Big Ego, but it'sthe other one based out of
Indiana.
I think it was Tutosh orsomething like that, logistics.
Uh, we just cut off somebodyelse associated with them
because we found a contact namethat was the same, and then we
dug in and dug into highways andfound out they're on the same IP
address and the same VOIP.

(32:05):
And so that's just somethingwe'll have to watch extra
closely now is contact names.
And that's a new one for me.
That just started a few monthsago.
So wow, that's work.
It is, it's getting excessive.
Yeah, it really is.
And that's what I think thatthat carriers don't understand
is when they are dealing with abroker that wants more

(32:27):
information than they think isreasonable.
It's I I have a joking term, Icall it post-traumatic freight
disorder.
Like, I didn't used to worryabout these things before I got
in freight, but now I'mhyper-vigilant.
And certain things just get mefreaked out.
So, like, and and that's what Italked about earlier, is like
try not to carry those thingsforward.
But a lot of people, a lot oftimes you can't help but carry

(32:50):
some of that with you.
So just try to be understandingof these brokers, but don't deal
with more crap than you have to,of course.
Nobody should have to deal withabuse or being mistreated, but
just take that with a grain ofsalt and realize the person that
you're talking to has probablyjust got very poor skills for
handling their stress.

SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
Wow, yeah.
Come back to it, give it sometime.
May have to call back, you know,um at a different time.
Yeah, you're right.
Because uh the conversation isat a deadlock, stand still.

SPEAKER_02 (33:22):
Well, and sometimes the people that seem like
they're really angry orvolatile, they're that way
because they really care.
So they're not necessarily a badperson, they're just having a
really bad day, or maybe they'rehaving a bad period of their
life, you know what I mean?
So it doesn't mean you have todeal with it, but at the same
time, don't try to take it toopersonally and think, oh, I'm
always getting treated like crapbecause it has nothing to do

(33:44):
with you, unfortunately.
It's just that that's whatthey're dealing with and they're
taking it out on you.

SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
So yeah, I mean you're you're looking for
answers.
You can't go online and getthese answers, um, especially as
to why someone's calling.
Just give me a little more.
Uh, just need some,unfortunately, some hand holding
right now.
Um just you know, just give moreinformation because it could be,
you know, a call coming from thewrong area.
So right, exactly.

(34:11):
Yeah, you gotta, I think peoplegotta be willing to answer
questions.
It's not someone trying to beannoying.

SPEAKER_02 (34:18):
Right, exactly.
I promise you, because askingthe questions is annoying to us.
So the last thing we want to dois spread that around.
But unfortunately, it's our joband we have to do it.
So, you know, it gets much worseum when you're trying to find
freight after it's stolen, whichluckily I'm uh knock on wood,
but I haven't had freight stolenyet.
Um, I did have part of a load gomissing, but that's because it

(34:42):
was crosstalked and iteventually was located.
So um that was bad enough.
Uh, but I never actually had uhfreight stolen or anything, but
I know from talking to people itis a complete nightmare.
Just even chasing down who toreport it to is crazy, and then
it just gets worse from there.
A lot of times you never evenrecover it.
So um that's why all thosequestions are being asked.

SPEAKER_00 (35:06):
Yeah, I think the those near misses like that,
having to go back and tell yourpeople that there's something in
jeopardy.
I mean, the pit in your stomach,I think that motivates you to
you know to ask those questions.
You know, feeling like, hey, wegotta go damage control here.
I mean, that that make you losesome weight right there.

SPEAKER_02 (35:28):
That might yeah, there's I tell you, there is no
worse feeling in the world thantrying to get a hold of your
driver for hours and not knowingwhere they are and wondering if
your freight's been hijacked.
It is the absolute worst.
I'll be ready to be like climbedup underneath the table with a
blanket.
You know, it's just awful.

SPEAKER_01 (35:47):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
Because you're getting so much pressure, and
you know, the the way I alwaysdescribe it to people is that
these customers, you know, youorder a pizza from Domino's,
which is no offense to Domino's,but they're not exactly the the
high end of pizza joints, youknow.
But you order one from there andyou can track that thing right
until it gets to your house.
So if I got forty-fifty thousanddollars worth of cargo, you

(36:09):
can't tell me I can't see thatthing for four days, you know.
They're not that's not gonnafly.

SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
Yeah, I don't know why freight brokerage um reminds
me of the movie Scarface when hegoes upstairs in that hotel and
they said, You got the you gotthe you got the stuff?
And he's like, Oh, do you yougot the money?
Then they go back and forth.

SPEAKER_02 (36:30):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:32):
That scene right there, I'm like, man, that
sounds like freight brokerageright there.
It's just a standoff.
You know, I don't have themoney, it's not with me, you
know.
I don't have I don't know if youever got a chance to see that
movie, but oh yeah, no, I'veseen that.

SPEAKER_02 (36:45):
I just saw it again actually a couple years ago, so
that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 (36:47):
Yeah, classic um conversation where things aren't
you know, somebody's withholdingand you you're trying to get
more information.
We can we just make this deal?

SPEAKER_01 (36:55):
Can we just I know exactly frustrating?

SPEAKER_02 (37:00):
It is very frustrating, and um you know
nobody wants to be frustratedall day, so we're trying to come
up with tools to make it easier,but it's like some of the
automation tools that made thisstuff easier is how we ended up
in this boat to begin with.
So it's back to the manualchecks and everything for now.

SPEAKER_00 (37:17):
So yeah, I mean, I think um even in trucking, they
uh first came out with theautomatic and then they tried to
go up the those passes and themountain, and it and a lot of
those transmissions failed.
And so then they had to go backto the manual transmissions.
Um, and then eventually they gotit right, you know, and they
came back to it again.
So, I mean, it was nobody wouldgo up those mountains without a

(37:39):
manual transmission, but nowit's it's like a breeze.

SPEAKER_02 (37:42):
Yeah, I still remember that.
I remember I used to have awhole list of drivers that would
not go to the northeast, period.
Or like Montana, none of that.
Like, just don't don't send themfrom Georgia towards the
northeast because they can't getthere.
They they don't do it becausethey didn't have the right kind
of equipment.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:00):
Look at the progress.

SPEAKER_02 (38:02):
I know, right?
Yeah, I forgot all about that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:06):
Glad that's not happening right now.

SPEAKER_02 (38:08):
I know, one less thing to worry about.

SPEAKER_00 (38:10):
Yeah.
So as far as leadership and thepersonal approach, uh, what have
you learned about working withpeople in the industry like this
where you know everyone movesfast and the pressure is is
constant?
How do you stay competitive andstill doing um right by the
people you work with?

SPEAKER_02 (38:29):
Like as far as competitive with prices and
everything like that, orcompetitive as far as service?

SPEAKER_00 (38:35):
Um the business to stay alive and provide the
service to individuals.

SPEAKER_02 (38:40):
I mean, um, how do you what while still I gotta be
honest with you, we do not focustoo heavily on trying to be like
aggressive on our pricing.
Um, so we really kind of rely onour customers to tell us like if
the rates are dropping and theyneed us to go back to the
drawing board.
Um, because we try to work, Imean, this kind of happened to

(39:01):
me right after when the marketfell off, like in what, late
2023?
Because I was still payingcarriers the same rates I had
paid them the year before, and Inoticed myself losing some load.
So I had to go back to thecustomer and be like, hey, is um
something going on?
We're not getting this freight.
So I just kind of have to watchfor that.
Um on the service side, we justwork together.

(39:24):
I mean, we have a very closepersonal relationship with
everybody we do business with.
So we just have to make sure wekeep those relationships, you
know.
And you know, I gotta tell you,sometimes on Saturdays I'm uh
talking to people about theirpersonal problems or whatever I
gotta do to keep thatrelationship going or send them
birthday presents or you know,for their kids or whatever it

(39:47):
takes, you know, to keep close.
And because people, you know,that I do business with, I
consider they're my friends.
So hopefully they're not gonnago anywhere too easily.
I mean, that's just how we do.
Again, my motto is we treatpeople how we want to be
treated, and we just live anddie by that.

SPEAKER_00 (40:03):
Nice.
I like that too.
It's part of our motto here atum That's the Liver Podcast, and
you come on the show, you can bea friend, you got a friend for
life.
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
That's great to have thatapproach with other people
because um it takes away thattransactional, like you said,
it's more of a relationship typeuh business.

SPEAKER_02 (40:23):
So well, I got into an argument a couple months ago
with a friend of mine becauseshe said, Well, you know,
business is business, and I saidI disagree, and she was like,
No, business is business.
So we just said I was like, Idisagree.
I don't, and I under Iunderstand how people have that
viewpoint, but um, business isnever just going to be business
to me because there are peoplein these businesses that I'm

(40:45):
working with, so it's alwayspeople is people for me.

SPEAKER_00 (40:49):
Yeah, there's there's is some people have a
switch in them where they Ithink they just get real cold,
and um I need to be remindedthat that's well you can always
just demand for people not totreat you that way, but yeah,
there's this, you know, whereyou think it's just
transactional.
I guess it's the best way Icould put it, but what would you

(41:10):
say?
It's like a little switch inthem, it's all of a sudden now
it's just it's cold.
What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 (41:14):
Exactly.
Yeah, I totally agree with you.
Yeah, and some people can justdid you ever watch that TV show,
Severance?
It's like some people can be adifferent person when they think
about it as just their job thanthey do, than if it's personal.
So that's why I said people wedo business with are actually
our friends too, so there's noteven an option for me to be
like, oh, that's just business.

(41:37):
Because, you know, once I once Italk to you, once we get to know
each other, like you said, we'refriends for life.

SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
I mean, it's nice to know thereare people like yourself out
there more.
So and if if if anyone's feelingthe same way, hey, you're not
alone because uh um, you know,you we're Angela here, she's
speaking it right here on theshow.
So I appreciate that.
That's good.
No problem.
Um, I don't know.
People think they uh, you know,uh they're they're on their
apprentice or something.

(42:04):
I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 (42:05):
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Yeah.
I think I'm I'm glad I don'thave to deal with a lot of um of
the companies that you know thethe big complaints are I I'm not
gonna name any three-letternames or anything, but um, you
know, I I did deal with a coupleof those big places when I was a
carrier, and I know like youjust get some carrier manager

(42:30):
that's pushing you to takesomething.
You know, you pay is$800 andthey're like, come on, man, it's
$350, it's good load.
Yeah, I do know what that feelslike, and it can be frustrating.
Um, I don't think you can forcesome people to care, and you
just have to accept that youknow there's always gonna be a
segment of this industry that isgoing to not be what you or who

(42:51):
you want to deal with.
But there's a it's a big worldout there, even though I said
it's small.
That's only small once you findyour circles.
So just keep looking and findyour circle because it is out
there.

SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
Yeah.
And with uh a lot of help thatyou can get from AI, I think the
circle can get even smaller,unfortunately, because now you
can do a lot more work byyourself.
Um something that we're we'regonna have to get used to, I
guess.
Because um we used to need a lotmore people to do certain
things, and now they're makingit easier to do it with I mean,

(43:24):
even like my this podcast that Ido uh do a lot of work myself.
Um yeah back in the day, youused to have a whole radio team,
and you know, so yeah, you gottaget used to those changes.
That's probably where we'reheaded until we find out that
that's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 (43:39):
It's true, but there's also it means there's
more opportunity too.
There was before you would havehad to find a whole team to put
out a podcast.
Now you can do it by yourself,which is pretty amazing.
So yeah, you know, I just haveto allow, you know, constantly
keep reframing it to ourselvesand keep the passion alive, you
know.

SPEAKER_00 (43:58):
The passion alive, I like it.
So for the future looking ahead,one of the last things we'd like
to end on is what do you thinkuh the industry is headed over
the next couple of years?
Um just some predictions to putout there.
It's just personal prediction,doesn't have to be anything.

SPEAKER_02 (44:12):
Oh, you know what?
That's really interesting.
I honestly think there are somany changes that we are talking
about right now in trucking, butI think what I'm hope I'll talk
instead about what I would liketo see change.
I would like to see um moreyoung Americans uh getting into

(44:33):
trucking jobs.
You know, I think that would beabsolutely wonderful.
And I'm hoping that with ustrying to limit some of these
foreigners coming over, that'ssomething we're gonna see
happen.
Because I would really like tosee trucking become a really
good job and way for people toget, you know, a good Nest egg
build up and get their start inthe world, like it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 (44:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (44:55):
And it's not been that long ago, it's only been
about 10 years.
So, you know, I think some ofthese changes we did to help the
industry grow, it just grewaggressively way too fast.
And once we kind of reel it in alittle bit, I think we're gonna
start seeing some opportunitiesfor us here domestically again.
So I'm I'm just hopeful forthat.
And I'm trying to put all myenergy and not just my mental

(45:18):
energy on hoping it goes well,but also, you know, my physical
work into putting out articles,writing about it, talking about
it, meeting with people aboutit, and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Yeah, I mean, just for people that may not, you
know, may not agree with that.
It's just it's not somethingthat uh patriotic, it's more so
when you see young ones, uh,individuals, when you ask them
what do they want to be whenthey grow up, you know, someone
that your child, you know, let'ssay a father's a truck driver
and his kids and he he gets themeducated, go through school,

(45:52):
you're right.
What do you want to be?
You know, very rarely am Ihearing truck driver.
So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:59):
Yeah, and it's yeah, and I never, and that's touch on
that real part.
I never thought I would be thekind of person that would be
talking about this kind of stuffbecause I've always considered
myself, you know, actually untilprobably a few years ago, I used
to consider myself very liberal.
And then that's I guess youscale back as you get in your
40s, right?
So um I'm definitely now squarein the middle.

(46:22):
And um, but I always used tothink, okay, we want people to
come overseas to America andhave opportunities, you know.
I thought it was all about that.
Um, but number one, it'sbecoming a safety issue
massively.
That's the number one issue.
But then number two, we have alot of people here looking for
work that need jobs.
And I just don't think thattrucking has something that

(46:44):
they've considered.
And likewise, I don't think alot of these kids have
considered a lot of blue-collarwork.
Out here, we need plumbers andelectricians and all kinds of
skilled workers that we just arenot encouraging kids to go into
these lines of work.
And I think a lot of kids aregraduating from college with
degrees they can't use in a lotof debt.

SPEAKER_01 (47:03):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (47:04):
So these are just opportunities that I want people
to know that they have, and ithas nothing to do with, you
know, trying to be a bigot oranything that I would have
looked at that five years agoand been like, I can't believe
someone said that, but here Iam, it's now coming out of my
mouth.
So, you know, I feel the need tojustify it a little bit and be
like, it has nothing to do withnot wanting people to be
successful, it's quite theopposite.

SPEAKER_00 (47:26):
Yeah, yeah, you're kind of rooting for your your
your offspring to be successful.

SPEAKER_02 (47:31):
Yeah, you got to root for the home team.
That's just all it's about.

SPEAKER_00 (47:34):
Yeah, that's yeah, yeah.
So I totally understand that.
I also understand the other sideas well.
I try to make sure I'm in themiddle as to, you know, when I
got a chance to go to Japan andsee how another country does
things, and it's like, wow,there is another way.
Um, you know, when you get totravel and go abroad, it's nice
that you can get a differentperspective to bring back home.
Um, brought a lot of peace forme as well.

(47:55):
Um, they slow things down a lotover there, and uh customer
service is huge.
So a lot of things that we'relooking for, other countries are
doing it right now.
So nice.

SPEAKER_02 (48:04):
Well, good.
I hope that we can um maybestart to, you know, I would like
to end on a good note with theforeign influence.
Maybe we can use some of theforeign influence in a good way,
and maybe, you know, instead ofusing it, which I think has been
we've used in this country aslike a race to the bottom with
rates, maybe we should startusing it as a way to start

(48:25):
seeing, okay, what are betterways to do things?
You know, how can we elevate ourindustry instead of just making
it cheaper?

SPEAKER_00 (48:32):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the the the quality of service
that they provide over there isjust insane.
I mean, I remember I went downjust to get uh um like a grub
hub or something like that.
Uh guy was just waitingpatiently for me.
I mean wow, yeah.
I mean, there's no action tobuilding.

(48:54):
I was like, where is he?
And I was looking around and hewas just waiting outside the
building.
Um yeah, I mean, it just uhreally made me think think about
how I'm presenting myself, and Ireally try to apply it to
myself.
I think it was it was a goodgood vacation to reset, you
know, my inner soul.
So it was nice.
There was no blue and red stuffcorner, yeah.

(49:16):
No blue and red.
I as soon as I got off theplane, I was like, no blue and
red stuff.
Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_02 (49:22):
Yeah, exactly.
No arguing, like they don'targue all day about what they
believe in.

SPEAKER_00 (49:27):
That would be I don't know, I didn't hear it.

SPEAKER_02 (49:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, true.
That would be blissful.
Yeah, it was like just pretendthat they're not, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:36):
Yeah, if you get a chance, you should go.

SPEAKER_02 (49:38):
So definitely that's on my bucket list, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (49:41):
Yeah, it wasn't my wife's, you know, because she's
she's actually uh some heritagefrom there, so she's actually
gotta go.
And then you know, I actuallyunderstand her better.

SPEAKER_02 (49:50):
Um I would imagine so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:52):
That's I was like, I get why you do that.

SPEAKER_02 (49:56):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (49:57):
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Well, man, it's been an honor totalk with you and and have these
conversations.
Yeah, I love podcasting.
I think uh it helps thelong-form interview, get to know
people a little better, givepeople a chance, um, versus just
that five-minute or three-minuteclip.
Might try to do a little less ofthose so that people actually
listen to the show and uhinstead of just no spoilers,

(50:18):
right?
So I don't know, that's fun.
Yeah, so Angela, I reallyappreciate you coming on and
sharing your perspective.
There's a lot in theconversation.
I hope people take away,especially around relationships,
trust, and how people show up inthe industry right now, what
matters most to people more thanthey realize, and like the going
to Matt's, and you got to see alot there.
I mean, that was great exposure.
I'm glad you got to go.

(50:39):
I hope to go with that.

SPEAKER_02 (50:40):
Yeah, and also most cities have some kind of traffic
club or logistics club.
So if you're new in the industryor even if you're not and you've
never joined a local networkingorganization, I strongly
encourage that.

SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
That's beautiful.
Um, nicely said.
So, and if anyone um from theindustry wants to share this
information with someone, weappreciate it.
If you have any questions orconcerns about a lot of things
we talked about or anything youwant us to share in the future,
we be sure to uh reach out to usand talk.
How can people reach out to youum to find out what you guys are
doing over there?

SPEAKER_02 (51:12):
Um the easiest way I think would to be to reach me
would um be on my email.
Um, and that's justangela.froning at gmail.com and
it's um an g e l a dot f o N ZNancy I N G at Gmail.

SPEAKER_00 (51:32):
Angela Froning.

SPEAKER_02 (51:33):
Yeah, I should make a I should make like a really
short one so people have an easyway to get get a hold of me.
Thanks for making putting thatin my head.
Now I'm thinking about that.
No, no, no, it's good.
It's always like I don't thinkof things until they come up,
and I'm like, oh, you know what?
I need to be thinking aboutthat.

SPEAKER_00 (51:48):
So you're also on LinkedIn too.
You got a good presence, yeah,yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:52):
Reach out to me on LinkedIn.
I'm heavy on LinkedIn.
I I never used to pay attentionto LinkedIn till like a year
ago, and I think LinkedIn haschanged my life, so for the
better.

SPEAKER_00 (52:01):
Yeah, great value.
So uh for anyone listening,whether you're a driver,
carrier, or broker, there'ssomething uh in this episode for
you to take with you.
Uh, we appreciate Angela comingon the show.
And um till next time, that'sdelivered.

SPEAKER_02 (52:16):
All right, thank you.

unknown (52:17):
Yeah.

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