UPS Buyout Controversy & Shop Floor Realities: Teamsters Local 638 Update with Scott Wilkie

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of That's
Delivered.
I'm your host, Truck and Ray,and today we have another great
show for you.
As always, we're talking withpeople who work in the industry
and also keep things going inthe industry, keep it moving.
Today's guest is a returningguest.
It shows he brings thoughtfulperspective from a union, a
local Teamster 638 in Minnesota,Scott Wilkie.

(00:22):
He's a business agent that sincethe last time we've been on the
show, he stepped up to a biggerrole, president of Local 638.
Scott has been deeply involvedin the labor movement for years,
advocating for workers, helpingorganize new groups, and pushing
conversations about the futureof trucking and transportation.
Last time we were on the show,we talked about union organizing

(00:45):
victories, concerns aboutautomation, and how the labor
movement is adapting to arapidly changing industry.
But a lot has happened sincethen, trucking and labor, and
honestly, just in the country ingeneral.
So today I wanted to check inand get caught up, talk about
the things that are that arestanding that we, you know, we

(01:06):
want to make sure we get coveredand what's going on.
Maybe we can get this groundcovered with when it comes to
leadership, what it looks likein a new role and where he
thinks his things are headed.
Scott, welcome back to the show.
Scott, welcome to the show.
Glad to have you on.
How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
Glad to be back, man.
Thanks for having me.
There's been a lot that's uhthat's happened since we spoke
last.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32):
I know, man.
Big things happening.
And I'm sure you're also a partof that as well.
I mean, you're doing a lot ofgreat things out there for the
local 638.
And uh wanted to get caught upsince we last talked.
Last thing that we talked aboutwas some major organization
movements, momentum, theconversations helping inside

(01:52):
labor.
And since then, what have youseen uh on the ground?
Have the conversations aroundunion organizing or worker
engagement continue to grow forhelping things shift in maybe in
a maybe a surprising way thatmaybe people weren't expected?

SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
Yeah, well, we see you know, at our local, we're a
general local, so we have thethe blessing of being able to,
you know, organize a variety ofdifferent industries.
We're not we're not pigeonholedby a you know one we have a lot
of drivers, but we're you know,we're not just you know
logistics, right?
So we're we're fortunate thatyou know we're able to organize
in a variety of of industrieswith different employers, and

(02:32):
and what we've seen is is what alot of people are feeling right
now, which is some some economicconcerns.
And I think what happens whenwhen you see maybe a dip in the
economy or or you know, lifegets more expensive, you start
looking for ways to to giveyourself and your family a leg
up.
And what people have haverealized is that one of those
avenues is you know a unioncontract.

(02:53):
And I bet you in the last year,the amount of folks reaching out
to you know, want to be union,want to be teamsters.
I mean, to put I bet you it'sincreased fivefold from what it
was a year ago.
We're having folks reach outfrom all sorts of different
industries, especially in NorthDakota now, which you know most

(03:13):
people know North Dakota is ared state.
And typically in in thoseright-to-work states, you know,
unions aren't as as popular.
But I think what we've seen overthe last year or two, especially
from the leadership at our IBT,is that you know, unions are not
a partisan issue.
You know, you're you can be ayou can be a union member and
and be a Republican, you can beyou member be a Democrat or an

(03:34):
independent or whatever.
It's not a political thing.
And some people try to make it apolitical thing, it just really
isn't.
And I think folks are startingto realize that, especially
younger workers.
And in North Dakota, we've seena huge uptick in all sorts of
industries that want to toorganize and become become
Teamsters.
Most recently we had a group offolks who are like construction

(03:55):
workers who build, build andrepair water towers, who who uh
we I think I'll have to talkwith Tony, who's the business
agent who's organizing it, andHannah, but I think they've
they've got cards signed now,and it was something like 90% of
the folks voted, they've turnedin cards already.
So it's it's pretty cool to see.
We're we're we're on this cuspright now of trying to meet the

(04:18):
moment, though, where we've gota lot of organizing interest,
and we have to make sure thatthose folks get the the full
service of local 638 right away,right?
Because if you're gonna dip yourtoes in in into the union world
and you're not you're feeling alittle apprehensive, right, then
you know you might not have thebest experience.
We want to make sure that folksfeel like they're getting
they're getting all of us.

(04:38):
So we're right now trying toshift some of the work around,
which there's there's a lot ofit, which we'll talk about, I'm
sure.
But there's a lot of work beingdone already at the local, but
making sure that those folks whoare who are wanting to become
union who are saying, yep, Iwant to be a part of this,
they're getting all of us andgetting a good experience right
out of the gate.
So we've partnered with ourjoint council, which if you
don't know what that is, it'sessentially the all the locals

(05:00):
here within the Midwest, soNorth Dakota, South Dakota,
Iowa, a little bit of Wisconsin,and all of Minnesota here, where
we're hiring organizers that aregoing to work for the joint
council and essentially help us,you know, with these folks that
want to be a union.
Because meet here in Minneapolistoday, it's a bit of a jaunt to
Williston, North Dakota to meetwith folks, you know, face to

(05:22):
face and and build thoserelationships as they start
this, you know, this new chapterof their career at their
employer.
We got to make sure that theyget you know everything that
they deserve, you know, rightout of the gate and then
throughout the contract process.
So yeah, there's a lot ofefforts being put into
organizing.
And I think, you know, sometimesbad employers or tough economies
make organizing work a littlebit easier.

(05:44):
But, you know, we're we'reexcited to help these these
these folks out.
And a lot of these folks, theyhaven't gotten raises in a long
time, and among other things.
And so yeah, we're seeing anuptick in in in folks who want
to be union right now, and andwe're just trying to meet the
moment.

SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
Nice.
What's um what's one of thethings that people can ex or I
guess they expect from the unionwhen they first sign up?
Maybe that they're they're alittle apprehensive and it's
like, man, I don't know what toexpect.
Uh what's some things that theyjust at least the minimum that
they expect?

SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
So I think you know, change is is hard for folks, you
know, and and when you've been,let's say you've been at an
employer for a long time, youknow, you might have this sort
of relationship with the bossthat yeah, maybe you don't get
along, but it's still likethey're your boss, and and you
know, we're we're all people atthe end of the day.
We don't want to like make lifeharder on our on our boss.

(06:38):
And I think that's whatsometimes people feel like you
know, becoming union does.
But the expectations I thinkfolks have right away are
different depending on thesituation that they're in.
Sometimes, sometimes they feellike they want the
representation out of the gate,like we want you to come here
and do this and that.
And it's like, well, we gotta wegotta be able to represent you
first, and they don't understandthe processes as far as like you

(06:58):
know, the NLRB kind of gotgutted with this new
administration, and so thingsare a little slower right now.
And and the expectationssometimes are for some folks,
they're like, I want things now,I want it right away.
And it's just, you know, it'sit's sort of not the reality.
But I would say a minimumexpectation is if they call you,
they get an answer, right?
If if if somebody calls me, theyyou know, they're not waiting,

(07:21):
they're not waiting more than 24hours to get a response back at
a minimum, right?
I ideally I can answer theircall on the first ring, but
people aren't left hanging, andyou know, they have access to to
me or whoever they're workingwith, especially when the Liz
folks work like I representnurses for one of the contracts
that I represent and they workovernights.
And so, you know, if they get ifthey get fired in the middle of

(07:43):
the night, you know, maybethey'll wait till the morning,
but maybe not, you know, and sothey're gonna reach out.
And you know, ideally I can getin touch with them as soon as
possible.
So they want they want goodcommunication.
Uh uh every single group that wehave wants good communication
with their local, right?
If they need you, you know,that's what they that's what
they want is they want they wantto be able to reach out and and
get their their issues resolvedor at least have the information

(08:04):
that they need to work throughwhatever issue that they have.
And then they want information,you know, they want to know how
the process works, how doescontract negotiations work?
What could my employerpotentially do, if anything, you
know, to retaliate against us,you know, what what are those
scenarios and what do they looklike?
And what are my rights in thatsituation?
You know, what are myprotections?

(08:25):
Because I think some people geta little bit fearful of maybe,
oh gosh, if we vote to becomeunion, then all of a sudden, you
know, it's gonna change my worklife somehow.
And then, but they don't realizethat a the process to becoming
union is pretty simple as far aslike what it takes to do it, the
but it's very complicated as faras just getting everybody in the
group on the same page.
It's like, you know, it is asimple thing, and we can do

(08:45):
this.
This isn't this unattainablething.
But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
All right.
Well, becoming president ofLocal 638, I mean, I'm sure
there's a story behind that youlike to share since we talked
class.
I mean, congratulations on that.
I mean, for a lot of peoplelistening and not understanding
what that role involves, what isbeing the president like for
their local?
And actually, what does it meanday to day?
I know you guys still answer allthose calls and help answer all

(09:11):
those questions, but what alsois added to the plate?

SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
Sure.
I'll tell you the story realquick of how this happened
because I I don't I think it'sprobably one of the most unique
situations I could I could thinkof for how somebody comes
becomes president of local.
So typically what happens is youknow, somebody retires and then
you you hire within, you know,to to or or within the e board
even of your local for who'sgoing to replace that that

(09:38):
person who retired, right?
Or the other way it happens isthrough an election process.
Maybe the past the the previouspresident wasn't doing the job
very well, and so somebody ranagainst and got more votes, and
you know, they won through thedemocratic processes.
For me, it was our e-board goinginto this last like election
over three years cycle lookedvery different than the

(09:59):
executive board that wasapproved you know through the
membership three years ago,because we had Trevor Lawrence,
who's our secretary treasurer,retire, Tom Booker, who's our
president, retired, uh, SteveSebiola, who was our recording
secretary, then vice presidentretired, and then Jeff Deedy,
who was a trustee, he got uhreally aggressive cancer and
died in less than a year fromhis diagnosis.

(10:21):
So we had a huge change of whatthat picture looked like at the
beginning of this e board'selection versus three years
later.
So going into this this fall,when we're up for re-election
again, the e board said, Well,we we don't want our membership
to have a we want it to be asconsistent throughout the next
three years as possible.

(10:42):
Okay.
And you know, Scott Lisi, who'sour principal officer now, is uh
likely gonna retire at, youknow, I don't know, I haven't
asked him officially.
He doesn't have a date yet, butlike in like a year, right?
Sometime over the next threeyears for sure.
He won't be on the e-board whenwe're up for re-election at the
end of three years.
So we know that change is gonnahappen.
And they wanted to uh I the theexecutive board wanted to put me

(11:03):
in the president role sometimein the next three years.
So what what happened was is isJohn, who's our was the
president of the local, he's oneof my best friends.
We we drove together, you know,we've known each other since the
beginning of 2013.
Or sorry, 2010.
Beginning of 2010 when westarted working together.
You know, we've been together along time, really good friends.

(11:25):
Part of the reason that I got tobe, you know, on the staff in
general came to me and said,hey, you know, we want you on to
the executive board in thepresident's role, but we don't
want to do it after the electionbecause then it'll kind of look
like, well, you know, a year agowe voted on John to be the
president.
Now Scott's a president.
That's not fair to themembership.
And he's right.
Additionally, when John cameonto the president role, Tom

(11:49):
Booker, who was the previouspresident, had retired and he
went on long vacation with hiswife out of the country.
They wanted to travel and wasunavailable for John to ask a
lot of questions, right?
And and and Trevor Lawrence atthe time was negotiating the EPS
contract, so he wasn't in theoffice, you know, that much when
he was doing central regionstuff.
So John, in that new presidentrole, was kind of feeling out a

(12:12):
lot of things and didn't have alot of supports.
I mean, he did, but he didn'thave, you know, what I think
would have helped him get thejob figured out a lot faster.
So John said, Hey, look, we wantyou in the president's role.
I will step down and until ScottLeasey retires as vice president
in order to sort of be yourmentor in this and help you
figure it out faster than ittook me to figure it out.

(12:32):
And a lot of these just littlethings every single day, you
know, things you need to do,things you need to think about,
people you need to be reachingout to, et cetera, et cetera.
Additionally, you know, ScottLeasey being in the Secretary of
Treasury role for the next yearor so will be able to kind of
like mentor me to take over forhim when he retires, right?
So John took a demotion for ayear in order to like get my

(12:53):
feet wet in the president's roleand show the membership that I'm
gonna be there for you know along period of time and we're
not switching these roles.
John was already on the eboard,Scott was already on the e
board, right?
So we're not bringing somebodynew on before the election.
And then when Scott retires, youknow, he'll have the ability to
have shown John the job and I'vehad mentorship.
So essentially it creates a sortof like Venn diagram transition

(13:14):
to allow our e-board to be andme, you know, to be more
successful.
So it was it was just a really,you know, incredible gesture to
be able to take a demotion.
You know, people in the Teamsterworld or organizations in
general typically don't give uptitles, you know.
So for John to say, hey, I'mgonna give up my title for you
in order to help you besuccessful because that's what's
gonna help the local besuccessful, you know, just says

(13:34):
a lot about John.
And and also it keeps you knowsome consistency with the
membership as far as our eboard,you know, leadership throughout,
you know, for these three yearsand hopefully, you know, far
beyond that.
So so yeah, it was the it was areally cool thing.
When as I will tell you though,and I told this to the members
at their first meeting, I said,when John brought this to me, I
was a little concerned.
It's like, are you sure you'relike you're not dying?

(13:55):
Like, is your health okay?
Because I, you know, you know,this isn't something that
normally happens, you know,typically people will never give
up their titles or you know,their positions that you know,
because it just it just doesn'thappen.
But you know, John's a reallyselfless guy.
It's not about him, it's aboutthe local.
And so he just wanted to, youknow, make sure I was successful
and the local was successful andthe membership had consistency,
and that's you know, that's theway it played out.

(14:16):
And and additionally, you know,Damone ED was our vice
president, and he took ademotion too, so that way this
could happen.
So both John and Damone said,Hey, well, we're gonna step back
for a year in order and thenwe'll step back in, you know, in
order to get your feet wet.
So yeah, really cool on thoseguys to to do that, and we're
really thankful and speaksspeaks highly of both of those
two guys.
But um, as far as like the thejob now, I'll tell you, first

(14:40):
month of it sucked.
So January, the January sucked,you know.
So I started January 1st, andthen, you know, volume drops off
at UPS, which is our biggestemployer after Christmas.
So the work slows down, we gotlayoffs, and then on top of
that, Metro surge happens.
And so we've got a lot of, youknow, especially our Hispanic
workers who are afraid to go towork or to stop going to work,

(15:01):
quit their jobs, some of ouremployers, and we're so we're
dealing with that.
We took a stance on ICE, we'rethe first Teamsters local to do
that, and put out I put out apress release on it.
It got 350,000 views on ourFacebook page in four days, and
I got all sorts of criticismsfor it, and that's okay.
That's what I signed up for.
But some of them from the far,you know, left of the pendulum,

(15:22):
which was, you know, this is youknow, this is BS, you're not
doing enough.
What a weak stance, what a weakpresident to the other side of
it, which was, you know, youcommie MF or I'm gonna find you
and choke you out and deaththreats and stuff.
So it got pretty wild prettyquick.
And I I realized what I'd signedup for at that point is you
know, calm sea is never made fora skilled sailor, right?

(15:44):
So here we are, we're in themiddle of it, and and you know,
I wanted the I wanted to be in aleadership role, and and damn
it, I got it.
So we we got through thatthough.
And I think, you know, aftereverything, you know, kind of
settled down looking back on it.
I'm glad I made that decisionand and our members are glad
that we made that decision.
And it was just one of you knowmany things that we're gonna,
you know, we're gonna navigatein this role because sometimes,

(16:07):
you know, the the the the roleof labor is not necessarily just
worker related because you know,workers fall into a lot of
different buckets.
And at the end of the day, youknow, my job uh in this position
is to represent, you know, ourmembers as a whole and all of
their needs and progress theirtheir needs and and wants and
issues.
So that's what I'm gonna do nomatter what the what the

(16:28):
circumstances.
But yeah, I learned a I learneduh a lot of skills and and a lot
about this this role and whatit's gonna mean in that first
few weeks on the job.
And you know, I'm thankful forit now, but you know, it was a
tough, it was a tough, tough fewweeks, especially at the end of
January.
I was like, what the hell did Iget myself into?
But but uh but we're good nowand and and I'm thankful for it.

(16:49):
I've got really good, reallygood members that are local, you
know.
I'm really, really blessed tohave you know folks like
yourself and so many others whowho just just give a damn about
about this union, the labormovement, and taking care of
each other and you know,whatever issues that we face, I
think when we get back to thosevalues, then we just we'll
figure it out because becauseyou know the for the folks at

(17:10):
638 through and through justwant what's best for everybody
and and and that's that's sortof our our you know our northern
north star, you might say that'sour compass, right?
That's what we try to bringourselves back to whenever we're
facing facing a challenge.

SPEAKER_02 (17:50):
Yeah, that's a lot.
You know, think about your roleand all that you're you're
supposed to do, and then addthat on top of that layer.
I mean, that's um, I mean,leadership in itself is very
difficult.
Sometimes it's a a job that'simpossible.
I mean, yeah, and that's youknow, you're trying to get a job
completed, you're trying to getgoals reached, but then add
those layers on it.

(18:10):
I mean, that is a lot to handle.
And then, you know, I thinkabout the city, you know, it's
like you're put right in themiddle of like a turf war, and
people are gonna reactdifferently, you know, their
bodies are gonna do thingsdifferently than the other
person.
You can't all they're not all beexpected to act the same.

SPEAKER_01 (18:29):
So how we're he's gonna add one more thing is on
uh yeah, so when when we'retrying to like keep the group as
as a whole, right, not succumbto you know getting pulled this
way or that way, right?
Bring it back to the center.
It's trying to remember thatwe're all humans trying to
navigate this or whateversituation we're faced with from

(18:52):
different lived experiences,right?
And trying to see each other,right?
My my lived experience is gonnabe different than yours, it's
gonna be different than his orhers or anybody in our locals.
And so when we come to ourmeetings, you know, we're trying
to resolve these these problemsat our general membership
meetings, or just work throughit.
We have a very diverse group ofpeople with different opinions.

(19:12):
And I think that helps us landat the right decision on most
topics, is when we can bring ina lot of different people with
different experiences, and thatkind of keeps that that
coalition right.
Because, like for me, you know,I'm navigating this as not only
like you know, a business agent,a president of a labor union,
but also as like a dad and ahusband who, you know, my wife

(19:35):
goes, she works in St.
Paul, so she's you know going towork and seeing these things,
and and her patients are dealingwith these things.
And my kids' school is nowclosed because they go to a very
diverse elementary school.
And so now, you know, ICE is inthe neighborhoods and by the
parent pickup lines and stuff.
And we, you know, the parentsare like, I don't, even if I
don't want my kids to see that,right?

(19:55):
My kids don't need to understandand and know about these things,
or they can't possiblycompartmentalize what ice is and
what they're you know doing,what you know, and so my kids'
school goes to e-learning, andso now we're navigating, you
know, everybody's navigatingdifferent layers to what took
place, right?
And trying to understand whatpeople are going through and
experiencing and how that'sgonna affect them, right?
Because our younger, you know,our younger members are gonna

(20:16):
feel it different than our oldermembers, and our members of
color are gonna feel itdifferent than our members who
aren't of color, and and uh, youknow, it's just it and our
parents are gonna feel itdifferently than folks who are
maybe empty nesters, never hadkids, right?
So listening to everybody's, youknow, thoughts and and taking
those into account to try toland on the right answer is is
something that you know we'llalways have to do.

(20:37):
But it was very evident andnecessary to keep the unity of
the local throughout that metrosurge operation.

SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
Yeah, it's almost like people have the instinct
within them to, you know, theywant to A, probably look for
answers, try to figure thisthing out, or B, they're just
they need someone to put theblame on, or you know, C, they
want to join a cause.
They want to make sure that theycan be a part of that movement.
And sometimes they do a littlebit of both.

(21:04):
So yeah, we can't expecteveryone to just do the same
thing.
And you as the president, Imean, that's got to be a lot to
put on your shoulders.
So as far as what the leadershipgoes, uh looking ahead for local
638, I mean, there's a lot ofindustries that it's not just
UPS or nurses.
I mean, it's quite a few arrayof workers out there that you

(21:25):
have to speak for.
Uh, how do you balance all ofthose?
And what's some of the biggesttopics that you see coming up in
the future?
Maybe automation, uh, maybe theconversation is going the wrong
way, and you got to help bringthat to the attention of
lawmakers.
Is he this is important forlabor.

SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
Yeah, so that's so on the topic, I'll touch on that
automation one first justbecause it's it's it's pretty
hot right now as far as wherewe're at.
We met with we met with thegovernor and the attorney
general.
I I did, and so did othermembers of of the joint council
here uh last week.
I think it was a week ago today,actually, to sort of like touch

(22:02):
base on on where everybody's at.
Now I will just say this thatfrom a bipartisan perspective, I
think the majority of the peoplethat that we talk with, and it's
both sides of the aisle, areopposed to companies like Waymo
coming in and taking jobs awayfrom from folks in in Minnesota,
right?
Because what happens is, youknow, I Waymo vehicle.

(22:24):
Now it had a driver in it rightnow.
They can't be driverless at thispoint, I don't believe.
I I have to check and see wherethe legislation is at this
point.
Uh, but a company like Waymo,right?
He's owned by Google.
They send in their lobbyists andthis team of people into these
cities that they want to likesort of infiltrate, we'll say,
for lack of a better word.
And they try to convince folksthat this is going to be so

(22:47):
helpful and beneficial.
And you know, it's not gonna,it's not gonna take jobs away
from from, you know, whetherit's Lyft or Uber or whatever
else you use, that this is gonnabe just fine.
But it's not.
And we see that in all theseother cities where it's been
implemented, that it is, it'sthe the you know, part of the
iceberg effect here that we'reseeing of slowly, slowly we're

(23:07):
we're seeing this automationkind of infiltrate different
industries and take jobs away.
And the problem that I have, andand every single politician can
understand, is that itessentially takes away the tax
revenue that we need to operatethe state, right?
So, you know, you and I go towork as truck drivers, we're
paying taxes that help fund ourroads and our schools and our

(23:31):
police and our fire and our EMSand all these structural things
that the cities and communitiesneed to operate, right?
And if we don't have that taxinfrastructure money here in our
communities to pay for thethings that we need in my
county, in your county, in ourstate, if that money from a
company like Waymo is just goingback to tech billionaires in

(23:52):
this small little section inCalifornia where they all, you
know, all the their companiesare held, there's trillions of
dollars of of money in this onelittle section of like 54 square
miles in California, then how dowe fund the things that we need?
You know, if we're taking if thepeople who are working here no
longer have those jobs, andthose jobs and the money

(24:14):
associated with that income isbeing sent elsewhere by people
who largely don't pay taxes,then what happens?
You know, well, I think whathappens is a huge increase in
the wealth gap, which is theworst wealth gap we've had since
the 1800s in America, where youhave the haves and the haves
nots, and it's a slippery slope.
And I and right now, I think wetouched on this before, is Tesla

(24:37):
is trying to automate thetrucking industry.
And could you imagine if, youknow, I I have a view of 94
where I live, and my daughter,who is she was sick with the flu
recently, was looking out at thehighway and she was counting
like there was a semi-truckevery four seconds going one way
or the other on the highway,right?
Think about that.

(24:58):
Think about if all those CDLjobs became automated companies
like EPS and FedEx, but alsolike Ruan and Holland and all
these freight companies nolonger have to pay drivers and
and all these middle class, goodpaying jobs with benefits and
pension plans often, you know,they go away.
What what what what happens?

(25:18):
You know, what there's no waythat we can say they'll find a
like-paying job with like-payingbenefits, you know.
So it's it's a slippery slope,but I but fortunately the
politicians, especially, youknow, that that we communicate
with here in Minnesota areadamantly opposed.
And so, you know, we as anorganization are working with
those people uh to make surethat they're you know doing the

(25:39):
work for the people at our ourlocal and state government so
that way we don't deal with thiscrap because I don't think we we
fully understand the effectsthat this is gonna that this is
gonna have on the short and longterm.
And and now that we're talkingabout automation in the trucking
industry, you know, we representa variety of workers from
warehouse workers to healthcareworkers, right?

(25:59):
We talked about that a littlebit.
But the the the the job lossthrough automation right now is
affecting most industries.
I would say I have a friend, agood friend of mine who's an
orthopedic surgeon who's veryconcerned that robots are going
to be taking his job away, thatthese minimally invasive
surgeries that they that theyfrequently do are going away

(26:20):
because robots have now figuredout how to do them faster, more

(26:46):
you know, more efficiently thanhumans can.

SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
Let's talk about that a little bit.
You know, you think about that,people say, oh man, that's
that's just something people arethinking of that's on social
media.
That can't be real, that's notgonna happen.
Uh what would you say that forthat?
I mean, you're you're talkingabout you're seeing someone
personally, but what if someonewere to come back with uh you're
just getting caught up in socialmedia?

SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Well, I think that's sort of like a natural, like
human like defense mechanism toproblems from times, is it's
sort of like you know, water inthe basement, right?
Oh, if I shut the door to thebasement and I don't go down
there, maybe there isn't moldforming, you know, I just don't
want to deal with it.
The the problem with with thatthat take is that it is

(27:31):
happening.
And it's in and if and if welook at different parts of the
country, especially in placesthat don't get blizzards like we
just had last night.
If we look at other parts of thecountry, like in Texas, where
the money in politics forsupporting businesses over
people is so great.
And the investments being madeby these tech companies to

(27:52):
automate entire industries andtake away your jobs is so great.
We're not as far away from thisissue as I think people want to
believe.
You know, some you know somepeople I think have justified
this automation thing is oh,it's it's just taking away
simple entry-level jobs thatthose people could find other
other work and you know fine,that that argument might work

(28:17):
today, but if you're taking awaysomebody's career that you know
pays pays$100,000 a year intaxes versus$20,000 a year in
taxes, you know, that's that's alittle different, right?
And you look at whole industriesgoing away because of
automation, that's a problem.

(28:37):
You know, our population isgetting any.

SPEAKER_02 (28:40):
What do you think the the brakes is?
What do you think the stoppingpoint?
What what slows it down?

SPEAKER_01 (28:45):
So I always say that you know the power is always
with the people, right?
And I think if the people getfed up enough, then they'll
stand up and and demand the thechanges necessary.
I just hope that the damage thattakes place isn't so great that
it's not me apologizing that mykids and grandkids that our
generation messed it all up,that we didn't we didn't get a

(29:07):
handle on this before you guyshad to clean up our mess, right?
Like you could say the samething about you know the
environment right now and thedamage that we're doing to our
ecosystem in in climate change.
I don't think that we totallyhave a grasp on that, and we're
not making enough uh you knowforward progress to combat those
issues.
But it but as far as economicand labor issues go, I I

(29:30):
seriously think that we are sofar behind where we need to be
as far as like you knowroadblock policy to to I don't
want to I don't want to sayforce companies to do the right
thing because I think then youknow that gets away from this
sort of like free market thatthat does benefit America in
different different ways.

(29:50):
But I do think that we need somesome constraints, you might say,
in order to keep workersworking, right?
Because we know we're unionmembers, if we stop working,
everything stops, right?
The power is with the people.
Like think about, and it doesn'tmatter what industry you're in,
right?
Think if every you know fastfood worker, maybe let's just

(30:12):
pick one Burger King workerdidn't go to work today.
You know, how that would affect,you know, different different
people in different ways.
You know, if people stop workingor can't work, everything stops.
Nothing matters if people aren'table to work.
And that that can be true indifferent ways, but especially
if you take away their jobs, ifpeople can't work, people are

(30:35):
gonna find ways to survive.
Crime's gonna go up, right?
People taking, needing, Ishouldn't say taking, but taking
part in tax subsidies, right?
Because they can't afford to tomake ends meet, you know.
Companies like Walmart, youknow, because they don't pay
people a living wage, they takeadvantage of tax subsidies.
And so the American taxpayerpicks up the slack for what

(30:59):
companies like Walmart don'twant to pay their employees.
But think about if there's lessjobs and more people need to,
you know, their income levelsdecrease to even zero because
they can't find a job, then nowall of a sudden, who pays for
that cost that is necessary sopeople can eat and have shelter,
et cetera.
Like there's gonna be a breakingpoint.

(31:20):
I just don't, I just don't wantus to get to a breaking point
that is gonna take so muchrepair and time and pain for
people.
I, you know, because it is arelatively simple fix, right?
It's it's it's stop automatingand taking away jobs for
corporate greed.

SPEAKER_02 (31:36):
Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, I think about itwhen it reminds me of when I was
younger, I was a little boy, andI didn't understand everything.
So I asked questions with myparents, and it was this one
intersection that was reallydangerous.
And people would go by and itwould be driving fast, they were
probably breaking the law, whoknows?
Stop and go, or it was a I thinkit was a flashing light.

(31:56):
Down south, they had a lot ofthose yellow flashing lights.
And actually, they would have alot of accidents there, and
people would be like, that's adangerous intersection, you
gotta be careful there, and theneventually I think somebody
died, and then they put up acontrolled intersection for stop
and go light.
This is my truckingillustrations, right?
So I'm thinking, you know, maybehumans get in the jam, and maybe

(32:18):
automation can help where, youknow, if it's sicknesses or
whatever, then they're not ableto do so much.
And then automation can step inkind of like a red light, green
light.
But instead of it always beinggreen light for automation or
just always green light forwhatever people want, I get
companies have to make money,but if we were able to come up

(32:39):
with some solution where bothcan work together or one can
make the job safer, I think itwould be a better way to go in
the direction versus, you know,hey, I just don't like this, you
know, because other companiesaren't gonna understand that and
they're gonna look at revenue,they're gonna look at dollar
amount that's gonna be spent onthis on what they're saving.
That's gonna make sense to them.
But to the worker, I think ifit's safety oriented, helping

(33:03):
people be safe and happier doingtheir job, I think that'll be
somewhere where we can push theconversation to go versus to
say, hey, we don't likesomething.
Because that a lot of timesthese business people don't
understand what it looks like toslow something down.
Uh they think that you'reslowing down progress for
humanity.
You know, so think about that,you know, you're like, hey, you
got to keep the flow of thingsgoing, you know, like that

(33:23):
intersection and keep it movinginstead of putting up a stop
like to slow people down.
What do you think about just,hey, maybe we can have it not so
much regulated, but maybe moreso controlled for when we need
help as a human race to pick upthe slack.
Maybe that's a direction.
What would you say on that?

SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
Well, I think I would agree, you know,
technology in itself isn't, youknow, bad.
I mean, look at, you know, we'vebeen the Teamsters have been
through this before, right?
Remember when uh, you know, noneof us do, I should say, remember
when, but when like vehicles,right, like were you know uh
used to deliver versus you knowhorses, right?
Because the Teamsters, if youknow, if you haven't seen our

(34:02):
logo, right?
That that logo stems fromThunder and Lightning, which
released two horses, you know,we used to be delivery drivers
using horses and carriagesessentially.
So when trucks became, you know,this new technology, we thought
it was going to take away all ofour work.
Well, in fact, it created morework, right?
Because now this work can bedone more efficiently

(34:22):
efficiently, and there was morejobs created from it.
The industrial revolution, samething, right?
We we see you know howtechnological advances can
positively impact humanity.
But I think that right nowthere's what's what's happening
is this what you might call itan increase in you know
technology is being sequesteredby some to negatively impact

(34:49):
others, right?
It's not it's not this risingtide, you know, that's lifting
all boats, right?
It's it's benefiting some andhurting many.
And I don't I don't think if ifthis can't be harnessed or
understood in a way that's goingto positively impact the human
race and everybody, or as manypeople as you can possibly, you

(35:10):
know, positively impact, I thinkwhat we're seeing now, and even
this is this short sample size,is some making incredible
financial gains and many feelingincredible financial impacts.
And especially the way our taxlaws are set up, where these
folks who are making a lot ofmoney, these corporations are

(35:31):
making a lot of money, they'renot paying their fair share back
to you know the infrastructurethat helps make America run.
And that's a concern.
So I I think it's just gonna bea matter of time until we really
understand how these impactshere are affecting people in
industries here, here, and here.

(35:52):
And I do believe, you know, wecan find so many examples of
this over time in the story ofAmerica that if if the damage is
too great or hits a hits acertain point that the the
people stand up and and demandthat it gets resolved, you know,
because ultimately, you know,the the masses decide what
happens in the United States andand across the, you know, across

(36:13):
the world with the impacts theUnited States makes.
So it'll be interesting to see.
But like I said, I just hope thedamage isn't too great before
that has to happen.

SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
Yeah, there's definitely damage already done.
I mean, you think about uhpeople trying to just the First
Amendment, you know, a lot ofthe things that people don't
want you to say and do.
So yeah, it's people areactually making progress one way
or the other.
So as far as the conversationwhen it goes to a big company
like UPS, you got a driverbuyout.
A lot of conversation goingaround that for drivers and

(36:43):
workers listening.
If you don't already know orbits and pieces about it, you
can probably explain what'shappening, what it means for a
union perspective.
Because this is your show whenyou come on to us.
So tell your perspective as tohow you think this will affect a
union.

SPEAKER_01 (36:59):
So it's there's a few layers to it, right?
I'll take my I'll take my unionhat off for a sec, here or I
should say my my president ofthe union's hat off for a sec.
I got into union work because Iwanted to make the lives better
of my co-workers and myself atat my employer, right?
Um I I am somebody who doesn'tmind mixing it up with with

(37:21):
folks and and havingdisagreements and resolving
things and and kind of goingthat extra mile.
And and yeah, I'm a firstborn,so I've had that typical like
firstborn trait of like tryingto be a leader and like stand
up, right?
So that's why I got into this.
And if if I'm being completelyhonest, right, the idea of
giving people a betterretirement package when they

(37:45):
exit their you know career as anemployer is something that we
fight for, right?
I want every single one of mymembers to be as rich as they
possibly can be on the day theyretire and then have you know a
retirement with dignity and andfinancial security and benefits.
I want the whole package for mymembers.
The problem with this buyout isthat they are getting to select

(38:10):
who receives it and and whenthey receive it, and they're
essentially buying your yourseniority number.
But they're not, at least atthis point, they haven't said
exactly how they're planning toimplement it, right?
So we in our contract negotiatethe separation packages, right?
You work for 25 years as afull-time driver.

(38:32):
This is what you get for yourretirement, you know, this is
what you earned.
But UPS is coming in saying wemight select somebody with 20
years of service versus somebodywith 30 years of service to get
this buyout package.
So even though you know youworked here 10 years longer, you
know, sorry, right?
Scott's gonna get an extra$100,000 and he gets to retire

(38:53):
earlier than you because wedecided that he's gonna get for
whatever algorithms we sochoose.
You know, that's it's just notfair.
They didn't negotiate this withthe Teamsters.
They're entering into individualagreements, which is a violation
of Article 6.
And we've got, you know, agrievance that was just heard at
the national panel that Ibelieve is an arbitration now at
this point, or going toarbitration, I should say, at

(39:13):
this point.
But we're seeing the companyselecting and choosing who gets
to retire when and how.
And it's just it's grosslyunfair.
And and we don't know exactlyhow many of these buyouts
they're gonna get, who they'regonna give them to, what their
algorithms are.
If they would have negotiatedthese with us or at least asked

(39:34):
for some level of input to makeit even remotely fair, you know,
of course, we want, because likeI said, we want everybody to
retire as as rich as possible.
That's always our goal.
Uh, you know, but I have anexample in our local of a of a
guy who he drove for he drovefor like 28 years and then he
just took an inside combo job,and then they rolled out this
buyout package, so now he's nolonger eligible.

(39:55):
And so he's like, well, peoplepeople get how how does that
work?

SPEAKER_02 (39:59):
People don't may not understand it.
How do you pre-select or cherrypick someone?

SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
So they're the the company is basically deciding
how who and how they're gonnayou know offer this buyout to.
Not everybody who applies forit's gonna get it.
I'll give you an example of onething they might do.
Let's I'll just use you as anexample here, okay?
So let's say you've got 30 yearsof service, okay?
You're a 30-year circle of honordriver, meaning you've never had

(40:26):
an accident, okay?
And I'm a 15-year driver, and Iget hurt every damn year, and
I've been in a bunch ofaccidents, and they're gonna
say, let's get Wilkie off thefucking payroll because he's
causing us a lot of financialissues, and this this guy's you
know gonna continue to you knowfile work comp claims and stuff
like that.
They might offer me the buyoutand not offer you the buyout

(40:48):
because we're like, why would weget rid of Ray?
He's got no issues, you knowwhat I mean?
He he gets he's never beeninjured, never been in an
accident, he's probably a fewyears from retirement anyway.
Why would we spend the money onsomebody who's already you know
doing it the right way and onthe way out?
Is that fair to you?
Absolutely not, you know, andfor and for you know, the
example I just gave previously,you know, is it fair that

(41:10):
somebody who put in 28 years andthen is now just took a
different job inside thebuilding, they're no longer a
driver because they're onlyoffering this to drivers, right?
And they work as an inside comboemployee now.
So now what?
They just took this differentjob inside the building, and so
they don't get the buyout offerbecause they have a different,
they have a different pay code?
That's not fair.
So that's you know, there'sthere's just several layers to

(41:32):
why this this buyout programjust it just sucks.
And ultimately the goal is toreduce you know the unit
membership, right?
So, you know, if if we lose youknow a significant amount of
members, right, that thatweakens our strength at the
bargaining table the next timewe have a contract in you know
less than two and a half yearsthat goes into effect into in
August 2028 for UPS.

(41:54):
If if they significantly reduceour numbers, right, that
significantly reduces thestrength that we have to fight
for a better contract.
And they know that.
So by reducing the amount ofTeamsters going into that
contract fight, it essentially,you know, may make it easier for
them to, you know, offer usworse raises than we would have

(42:16):
maybe won, or or benefitspackages or or language
regarding XYZ issues, right?
Because we have less we haveless strength at the bargaining
table.
So that's that's the macroconcern that we have.
And the concern I really haveabout the long term is is is if
we reduce the number of membersin our local, you know, can we
guarantee strong contracts everysingle you know five years?

(42:37):
Well, you know, we're gonna haveto keep growing in order to do
that, right?

SPEAKER_02 (42:41):
So I know you're not with that legal team, so uh the
case is still like active.
Uh because people are like,well, the UPS uh teams just
lost, the company won.
Is that what's the status updateon that?

SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
So we it's it's yeah, there was a headline, I
think it was in freight wavesthat kind of made also
oversimplified it.
Because we have a grievanceprocess, the the I think it was
the judge in Massachusetts, andI don't have all the information
so I don't pretend like I do,but I believe the j it was the
judge in Massachusetts that saidwe're gonna let the the the
grievance process play outfirst, right?

(43:14):
So because we have, you know, ifif you don't have union
representation to your employer,right, if you have an issue with
your employer, then you're gonnahave to go through legal
processes, hopefully, to try toresolve it.
So when when the IBT filed alawsuit against the company,
effectively we're being told wehave to go through the grievance
process first, right?
And this happens a lot.

(43:35):
I mean, if you get if say youget fired from work and you're
like, well, I'm gonna hire alabor attorney, the the first
thing that the the attorney isgonna say is, well, what
happened with your grievance ifyou're a represented employee,
right?
We have to go, we you have to gothrough your grievance process
first and let your your unionyou know fight for the issue.
So we have the grievance filedfor this most recent buyout, but

(43:58):
we actually have the the lastbuyout that's going to
arbitration.
I think it's gonna be, I want tosay May or June is the
arbitration date.
Or it's the I don't have mynotes in front of me.
I I I apologize.
But we should we should have ananswer on that before summer, I
would imagine, with that, withthat um that arbitration case.

(44:19):
So yeah, we're fighting it indifferent ways.
And you know, some folks on thenegative side are say, oh, well,
it's just you just care aboutkeeping members, and you don't
want your, you know, you don'twant your people to to get this
money.
And I'm absolutely not.
I want everybody to get as muchmoney as they can.
I'm just concerned that I've gotmembers who are are not gonna
get it, who who should begetting it based on their years

(44:40):
of service, and that we have gotsome people who the company's
selecting to essentially get anextra.
retirement package on top ofwhat we you know we've
negotiated outside of you knowtheir years of service in
different positions so that'sthat's ultimately where I
personally stand on it but Iknow a lot of people have
different opinions I actuallyI'm looking over I this is my
this is my first buyout theysent me one Ray they sent me a

(45:02):
buyout offer originally so itshows you how much I'm worth to
these people framed it I likedit so much wow yeah well I mean
that's another topic that you'restuck in the middle offer too
yeah what's that yeah I saidthey sent me the last buyout
offer too you know because I'mstill on this the seniori list

(45:22):
and you know it's some folksthat have are looking at like
hey this is a chance for me toyou know leave and go do
something else and and somefolks are looking at it like man
I can't believe this is all theythink I'm worth you know or they
think that I would actually takethis when you know my my
benefits you know and my annualincome is is is and and all that
this job provides right is worthso much more than that.

(45:45):
So but yeah I was that firstbuyout offer was so damn
insulting I decided to I went toI went to I don't know where
grabbed a frame for like fivebucks and I'm like I'm gonna put
that up on the wall to toremember that for the rest of my
career what they think I'm worththen.
So here's a tough one I meanwhat if you're already going to
leave and you should you turn itdown I mean that's a tough place
to be maybe you just don't wantto be at UPS per se or I'm

(46:10):
already leaving I'm alreadyretiring what would you say
there yeah I mean like I hadsomebody call me up and said hey
you know Scott I'm retired I wasretiring this summer anyway like
I got I got plans I'm going likeis it cool if I take the buyout
and I said look you you dowhatever you're gonna do you
know I I want people like I saidI I want people to have the best
retirement possible you know andand and get everything you can

(46:32):
out of this job and if thiscompany is gonna you know write
you a check on the way out thedoor then hey you know good for
you yeah I don't want to I thinkthat's amazing turn it down just
because you know your unitpresident says it's it's illegal
well it you know or it's acontract violation I I I don't
want anybody to ever think thatI don't have their best interest
right I and so if if somethingis in your best interest then

(46:57):
ultimately you know I don't wantpeople to I don't want people to
have a a bad taste in theirmouth because they you know they
did you know the right thing atthe time by by not accepting it.
You know there's pe there'sfolks a lot of folks who are
going to retire you know prettyquickly here anyway if those
folks are already going toretire then hey that that that
you know that's that is what itis.

SPEAKER_02 (47:16):
What's going to happen is when people don't get
replaced you know and that's thehard part but they probably
wouldn't replace them anyway youknow yeah I just wanted them to
hear that from you that you knowyou still have a heart you still
have a understanding for whatpeople are going through some
people you know there's thebusiness side of things and then
there's also as an individualyou see what's going on same
thing with you know immigrationuh we're still humans it's more

(47:38):
so how things are being donethat people have a hard time
getting behind they understandwhat immigration is it's not a
new thing it's how it's beingdone like like that lady saying
they don't want their kids tosee this stuff so you know it's
it's just we can we can havechoices or we can things can be
enforced on us.
I think too being also a unionworker myself when someone asks

(48:00):
me you know hey do you want towork versus they force you it's
always a little different toneand I don't know why but it
always just doesn't set as wellwhen someone forces you to do
something.
So and then you got people thatjust want to manipulate the
system so you can't ignore thattoo so but you know you're not
getting death threats oranything for this contract are

(48:21):
you?

SPEAKER_01 (48:23):
No I don't know man no the that stuff that stuff
with with ice I think it washitting it was hitting all sorts
of buttons with folks and peoplewere just kind of reacting and
and you know I what I'verealized too now is when when
people have an issue thatthey're really passionate about
they want to skip the stepsright and just go straight to
you know now when they go to ourwebsite and they say I need to

(48:46):
talk to a whoever the presidentof this local is rather than
actually talking with you knowthe their business agent first
or or their business agent whorepresents the employer they
might have the individual peoplejust want to go up as far up as
they can and my you know mycontact information is pretty
easily accessible.
So yeah but as far as the thebuyout stuff goes I've I I think
after the people or I shouldn'tsay those people all of us got

(49:08):
sent those those letters thosefolks who are interested in in
the buyout I mean that wasbetween all of us at the at the
office I would say we probablytook a hundred phone calls a day
that first week but but if youtake if you take everybody you
know all six of us agents I meanwe were it was it was pretty
constant in because people had alot of questions you know how
does this affect my pension howdoes this affect my retirement

(49:30):
you know my retiree benefits andyou know my concern too is like
if we have an influx of peopletake this buyout all at once and
we lose you know membership howdoes that affect our our retiree
health insurance coveragebecause it's essentially like a
subsidy you know is the is thefund with the membership that we

(49:50):
have able to pay for the fundplus the retiree health
insurance on top of it if wehave an influx of retirees I
don't know we'll we'll I guesswe'll see what happens with this
buyout and how many people takeit and then what happens with
our health and welfare fund.

SPEAKER_02 (50:04):
Man that's crazy all the stuff you're juggling
sometimes I sit back I thinkabout you know the union
stewards and all the phone callsthey take and I get I get a lot
of phone calls but man I canonly imagine just as far as for
all this stuff.
I mean people can call you stilleven though you it may be
bombarded you're still trying tobe a dad father husband you know
so how do you how do you juggleall of those conversations?

SPEAKER_01 (50:28):
I have a very so my wife is is a union nurse and so
she understands you knowunderstands the important of
importance of you know unionwork in general is because she's
a been a union member herselffor you know 15 years.
And my my mom's retired now mymother-in-law is retired now and
so those without those threewomen I wouldn't be able to do

(50:51):
this job not even close you knowI don't know anybody else my age
in this job I I think you knowTanner Fisher from local 90 in
Iowa is president of that localis a young guy yeah he's I think
he's probably about my ageRobert Sandoval's from local 350
out in out in San Francisco ismy age but neither one of those

(51:12):
guys I don't think either onewell I know Robert's not married
and doesn't have kids and Idon't think Tanner does either
and so there's a reason whypeople are like oh it's a bunch
you know the Teamsters theorganization it's a bunch of old
guys.
Well there's a reason for thatyou know because this job same
thing with politics the jobtakes a lot of time and energy
away from home and away fromyour family to where you know

(51:33):
you're kind of married to thejob.
And I and I'm just thankful thatI've got you know a spouse who's
super supportive of of me andthis work that she knows this is
you know my passion and and justtrying to balance it as much as
I can.
You know I don't I don't sleep awhole lot I take work home with
me a lot with you know if it'slike a you know I was gone for

(51:54):
we had national panel recentlyand I got back late Wednesday
and seen the kids in like fourdays.
So I brought all my work homewith me so that way I could see
the kids during the day and thenthey go to sleep and then I'm up
from you know 8 till 2 a.m doingstuff that I didn't get to
during the day.
You know, uh until they get alittle bit older and more
self-sufficient.
This is you know this is sort ofwhat I signed up for.

(52:16):
But I've got you know reallysupportive family that that you
know helps out a lot.
But it's still hard.
I mean the kids will some daysyou know kids come to the I got
a big whiteboard over in theback of the office and maybe
they come hang out with me andthey're you know whatever
because I you know stuff justhas to get done.
You know I can't I can't call insick because one of my kids is
sick anymore because you have atermination hearing in the

(52:38):
morning and we got to get yourjob back.
So I'm gonna be there you know Ithere's certain things that I
just can't not be at now.
And so I it's been hard hardnavigating some of those things
just because it's new but youknow the the gratification I get
from this is so great like thatit just fuels the tank to be
able to you know navigatewhatever I just this stuff gets

(52:58):
in your it gets in your bonesman and like being able to to
make people's lives better isthat that intrinsic reward is so
great that it it I think itallows folks in this world of of
union labor to to navigate a lotof a lot of different things

(53:21):
that are that are challengesbecause the the reward for being
able to make somebody's you knowlife better is it's so great.

SPEAKER_02 (53:30):
So yeah rooting for you maybe um give you a little
grace I mean I mean I canimagine sometimes you wake up
out of your sleep and you try totalk on the phone sometimes
you're not in the best bestmindset all the time either.
I mean that's um that's anemotional roller coaster.

SPEAKER_01 (53:45):
Well that's one of the reasons I I you know I
stopped I stopped like drinkinglike I was on and I never really
had like an issue with alcoholbut it was like you know if I
never want to take a phone callfrom a member and like I got
like three beers in me on aweekend right because I
represent people 247.
You know I took phone calls lastnight at 945 took phone four or

(54:07):
five phone calls on Saturdaybunch of text messages on
Saturday because there was abunch of crap going wrong at UPS
per usual right and so I waslike here's what happened it was
like my like I was on I I took avacation about a year ago and I
had I think I had like it was inthe middle afternoon.
I had a few drinks to me orwhatever I was you know I had my
kids around so I wasn't I wasn'tanything above like a point one.

(54:28):
But I remember thinking tomyself I'm like I just got off
the phone with somebody who hada work question and I wasn't in
like my perfect headspace that'snot okay.
So so I stopped I stoppeddrinking alcohol I try to get
more sleep so that way you knowthe stress of like I'm you know
exhausted right now doesn't youknow get injected into some

(54:50):
situation that I'm dealing withor I don't bring my work home
with me.
You know, it's more that I canalready do like I try to I try
to leave myself from whatever Iwas doing at the door to try to
be more present with my kids andtry to like learn to
compartmentalize these things.
So those are some of the thosesome of the things that I've
just been thinking about is likehow I can be the best version of
myself all the time.

(55:11):
Getting more exercise I I when Ifirst started this job I wasn't
taking care of myself mentallyor physically and then that
started to like snowball.
And so the last year I've beenyou know just actively making
better decisions with you knowmy diet my sleep how much water
I'm drinking how much exerciseI'm getting like I said you know
just saying I'm just not goingto drink anymore because that's

(55:33):
one more layer to that so justtrying to be like the best
version of myself so that way ifif I am dealing with something,
you know, somebody recently twoweeks ago got fired at like 4
a.m and they're blowing up myphone and I'm like this is an
emergency.
So I you know I wake up I'm likehey what's going on I you know I
just got harassed and I blew upback at them and they fired me
and now we're dealing withsomething you know right now and

(55:55):
and trying to be able to tryingto be as present as possible for
those issues when they happenbecause they will happen is just
something that I've had to sortof figure out over the last
couple of years but especiallythe last year I think I'm I'm
just being more aware of how Ican be better in in all these
little situations as theyhappen.

SPEAKER_02 (56:15):
Man that's that's a lot I mean that's a lot that
humans have to deal with rightnow all of us in general are
dealing with a lot and it'ssometimes it can be
overwhelming.
So taking some things off theplate uh to make it easier is
definitely a win.
So I applaud that your effortsthere me speaking for myself
also yeah I I drink very littlebecause you know like I said I'm

(56:35):
trying to keep stay healthytrying to stay around for my
family as long as possible.
So I can slow that down you knowI'm like hey let's push that off
a little bit but also you got tobe ready for whatever happens
you're not sure what's going tohappen.
Every day it seems to bechanging.

SPEAKER_01 (56:48):
I mean there's a lot of rumors going around the
industry I know maybe you can umuh speak on that but uh maybe
you can get ready for a new jobposition because uh they keep
saying that Carol told me it'sretiring yeah I hope that's true
man it's just been a disasterand I think I think even if you
talked with some of the some ofthe folks at UPS on the UPS
management side you knowcandidly about about how they

(57:10):
feel about Carol told me theyall kind of feel the same way is
is it hasn't been going well.
They don't like the directionespecially the old school folks
who've been around for a longtime don't like the direction
because they they they know whatworks and what doesn't work at
UPS and this isn't working.
And it's not good for them.
It's not good for the the thehourly folks either everything I
mean they they don't you knowthe reason that this management

(57:32):
pool this talent pool at UPS isso shallow right now is because
they don't treat these thesemanagers well anymore.
You know the management job usedto be used to pay better it used
to have better benefits you knowtheir healthcare sucks they
don't get a pension anymore youknow I don't I can find I
anybody who want to do that jobthe way that essentially the way

(57:53):
they treat them too.
I mean it's a tough UPSmanagement jobs are non-union
UPS management jobs are tough nomatter what level you're at and
and if I'm just being honest Ifeel for some of these folks who
who do that work and becausethey're not getting treated very
well anymore and they're inthey're taking away more and
more of what used to get goodtalent into the doors at UPS for

(58:14):
for their management side andthey just don't have that
anymore.
And that's again because thesecorporate decisions that are
being that are being made arejust they're just not good.

SPEAKER_02 (58:22):
Yeah we sit and talk with some people that retire and
they'll say hey where are youworking there's a UPS and
they're like oh blah blah blahand then and then you see their
face change and you're like manso what's what's going on over
there.

SPEAKER_01 (58:34):
Yeah yeah and you know retirees they're the
retirees that I talk to UPSretirees are very concerned
about the direction thecompany's going right now and
especially with trying to shrinkthe workforce instead of growing
the company you know that's onething that you you know a
contract just can't mandate oror write language on is a
company actively you knowself-employing you know it's

(58:55):
you'd never see that inbusiness.
You know find me a business thatsays it says we actually you
want to stop growth.
We actually you know it justdoesn't it it it makes sense
when you think about you knowtrying to shrink the network and
shrink costs and things likethat.
But it just really doesn't makesense that a business would want
to do less and you know minimizetheir markets and and reduce
their growth and close buildingsyou know it just it's it's not I

(59:20):
know some people say it's areaction to the overstaffing and
COVID, but this is well beyondthat, you know and and the in
the in in this one since we'retalking about pensions and and
the retirees here it's funny Italked to a retired recently who
was kind of telling me the samething that they're on this sort
of like health journey now orwhatever because they're very
active as the UPS driver and nowthey're very not active as a
retiree and they said you know Iwant to squeeze I want to

(59:42):
squeeze every ounce of juice outof this pension that I can get
and I want them to be paying mea pension check when I'm 100
years old.
So like they're looking at itit's like I'm gonna get every
single cent that I'm worth andI'm gonna live for a long time
so they got to keep paying me.
So I'm like that's one way to goon a health journey for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (59:57):
Yeah there's a lot of people out there just trying
to make ends meet as long aspossible because the way the
climate is out there it seems tobe unpredictable.
I mean many another rumor that'sout there is they keep saying
you know the smaller they makeit maybe they're trying to get
someone to buy the company whatdo you say on that?

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:14):
Yeah there's been some rumors about that I mean
the one thing that we'reconcerned about right now is
that company Roadie that UPSowns.
So Roadie if you don't know it'sessentially like last mile
delivery service sort of likegig work you know if you use
ship there were something likethat from Target or Cub Foods or
whatever you're at to to ordergroceries and things.

(01:00:34):
So like localized last miledelivery service the problem is
that if they're using UPSmanagement people or UPS
equipment or even you know UPStracking labels and things like
that.
It's essentially UPS work thatthey're contracting out to a
different company.
And so there's one concern thatessentially they're they they

(01:00:56):
want this gig this gig workermodel and this you know this
employer model where you knowyou're a 1099 employee instead
of 1098 employee right becauseit's highly profitable when you
don't have to pay you know thesebenefits packages and retirement
packages and you know it it itcan be costly for you know
economically too because youknow I'm sorry union workers we

(01:01:21):
pay taxes that help theeconomies move and if if we have
you know a bunch of 1099employees and we no longer have
1098 employees what are theeconomic impacts that that could
have but we also have to thinkabout if UPS is trying to shrink
its networking and funnel morebusiness to roadie this gig

(01:01:43):
company you know is that goingto continue to shrink the
bargaining unit going into the2028 contract I don't know.
Right.
So there's a lot of there's alot of potentials you know when
it comes to like the the UPSrumor mill I call it um I
typically I typically will tellyou know folks, you know, until
I see something you knowconcrete then I just don't

(01:02:04):
entertain it because I hear somany so many UPS rumors on a
daily basis that I just I don'teven repeat because if I repeat
it then it gives it some sort ofmerit.
And I always say too UPS on thethings that are actually true
that they actually try toimplement oftentimes can't even
do it anyway.
So if if even if things are factthat they're this is what they

(01:02:25):
intend to do they can't some ofthose things they can't even do
anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:29):
Yeah sounds like that business model.
And FedEx already tried thatdidn't he?

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:34):
Well so the problem with FedEx and the like I have
FedEx people reach out to me allthe time I want to be union but
the problem is they're they'remisclassified like you're
alluding to under the RailroadLabor Act.
So under the RLA which they theydon't really deliver anything by
air or uh or the rail anymorebecause they're misclassified
under that from decades anddecades ago now their employees

(01:02:55):
are independent contractors.
And so Amazon uses thismisclassification of its workers
as well where you know if youhave an Amazon package delivered
to you it's not by an Amazonworker.
It's by you know Ray's truckingcompany and Ray owns those
routes and Ray employs thosepeople.
So guess what if that personfiles a work comp claim or wants

(01:03:15):
to sue Amazon they don't theysue Ray because they don't work
for Amazon even though they'redriving Amazon trucks, Amazon
packages Amazon uniforms.
And so it essentially protectsthe company and the same thing
is true with FedEx you know ifyou look at a like a white FedEx
ground truck by the passengerdoor the driver's side door
you'll see like you know SAM'shome delivery and that's who
they work for.

(01:03:36):
They don't work for FedEx and sothese companies really profit
off of bad legislation andmisclassification of their
workers.
And I think UPS with this roadiecompany is trying to dip their
toes into that as well it seemslike at least but we'll see
we'll see what they do.
We have grievances filed about alocal 804 in New York regarding
roadie and so we'll see wherethat heads too.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:57):
Yeah thanks for coming on the show Scott taking
your time I mean that's the oneway we're going to be powerful
is to be able to continue totalk these conversations and
talk amongst ourselves sharethese things that are going to
be making an impact on our livesand so that way it brings
awareness like these quietthings that happen in the
background where people aredoing things but yet there's the
loud things the things that aremore obvious that are right in

(01:04:18):
front of your face those twokind of work against each other
it seems like there's somethings that go on that we don't
know that are that that the bigmoney makers, the big players
are doing like saying lobbyistsand things like that.
We don't hear thoseconversations we don't hear that
work leaving.
We don't hear those individualsfiling for unemployment or
looking for work but yet you'rethe voice of those things.
You're bringing that awarenessand so that people can be aware

(01:04:41):
that hey there's things there'sa shift there's a dynamic thing
that's happening right now weneed to be aware of so starting
these conversations are going tobe great.
And like you said you're takingthese phone calls I mean you're
you're you're keeping the doorsopen where people can give you a
call if they have any morequestions or concerns so that
pertain just to them and theirfamily they can always reach out

(01:05:02):
to you.
Isn't that right?

unknown (01:05:04):
That's right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:04):
Yeah and I appreciate you having me on and
and discussing a lot of thesethings like you said you know a
lot of folks that you know weall we all are living you know
like this sometimes just tryingto deal with the the stressors
and the issues that are in frontof us and so sometimes we're
we're unaware of the movingpieces that are taking place but
you know fortunately orunfortunately some days I'm in
this position where we'reworking on these these these

(01:05:27):
problems that are related tothese problems here and the the
cause and effect relationshipsregarding labor.
So you know like if if we've gotany you know folks who've got
questions you know or or want todiscuss these things further you
know I'm an open book and andwe're always pushing for things
that are going to benefit thebenefit the workers union or
not.
You know we just our goal is tomake sure that you know workers

(01:05:48):
in every industry you know aretreated with you know dignity
respect you know fair wages andand benefits packages that are
going to increase their qualityof life and ultimately create a
better economy for all of us.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:58):
Nice.
So yeah if we can all cometogether unite keep it try to
stay in the middle where youknow where possibly if you take
care of that little guy uh thenwe're everybody I'll be taking
care of so thank you for being asoldier for that.
Thanks buddy appreciate youhaving me on yeah so you know
moving forward anything forpeople to look forward to any
final thoughts maybe wrap it upbefore we go maybe there's a

(01:06:19):
broader question of you've beenworking on closely with drivers
or workers for some time nowwhat would you talk about to
members to kind of help themstay hopeful about where we're
at yeah so when we in my firstyou know my first general
membership meeting that we hadback in January I asked you know
my my my sort of call to actionto to our members but just

(01:06:41):
workers in general is you knowfind out what you can do you
know to benefit your workplace

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:46):
And and and if you're in a union, find out what
you can do or think about whatyou can do to benefit your
union.
You know, we all have you knowtalents and abilities beyond
just you know what our employerasks of us.
And so if you have somethingthat you know you can contribute
that'll make life better or evenjust more positive with your
work group or within your union,figure out what that is and then

(01:07:08):
how you can apply it.
And if if that's if that'stalking with people and being
social, then maybe you can, youknow, create social groups that
you know offer people an avenueto build relationships and and
you know resolve issues at theirworkplace, that maybe you're an
artist, but you can, you know,create something that'll you
know make your your workspace oryour union hall or you know,

(01:07:30):
just a better place orenvironment to be in.
You know, I think we all havethings beyond our normal scope
of work duties that we can offerto to better better life for
ourselves and our our co-workersif if we're willing to you know
just take a take a little stepand apply it.
So uh that's what I would justask, is if if there's something
that you feel like you you canbe contributing that that that

(01:07:51):
you're not right now, or youcould do at a higher level, just
you know, ask yourself, whatwhat is that and what what can I
do?
I think if we all did that, we'dbe amazed at how how much better
our quality of life would be.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:05):
So still one more question out of you before you
go.
Um helping people feel that whenthey maybe they're discouraged
about the direction of thingsare going in the world right
now, maybe it's the economy, theindustry, or just a broader
climate where we're you know,where we're living.
Uh, what would you say to thoseindividuals to keep their heads
up?

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:23):
I think you're stronger than you know, and and
we realize that you know, withgoing back to you know, the ice
metro surge operation here inMinneapolis, is you know, your
voice and and your community isso much stronger than you know.
We had the cool one of thecoolest things that I've ever
been a part of recently was myone of my union stewards, Benji

(01:08:43):
Gomez is his name.
He has a Facebook page I'llplug.
It's called uh Benji's Benji'sPantry Comunidad, and he created
a food pantry out of his house.
And just because he hadneighbors who were afraid to go
grocery shopping and and didn'twant to leave home because there
were ice vehicles parked out atthe end of their street and they
didn't want to go outside, youknow, because if you don't know,

(01:09:06):
like ice is just followingpeople home and and racially
profiling people, you know.
My my brother got followed homeby an ice vehicle like miles and
miles and miles all the wayuntil he got in inside his house
and they left him alone.
But, you know, I mean, I don'tlike I don't know, maybe I do, I
guess, or maybe we do, you know,look, we're Native American,
maybe we looked like we could besomebody who they needed to

(01:09:26):
check into.
But, you know, people felt likethey weren't safe.
So Benji stood up and said,Well, I'm gonna create a food
delivery service, you know, justto get people groceries and he
just took donations, said, Hey,you know, we we went to we went
to Costco and got, you know,hundreds of dollars worth of
stuff, but then people startedtaking notice and said, Hey, I I

(01:09:46):
think that's that's a greatthing.
I'm gonna get involved.
And he raised in in a month, heraised$200,000 and fed 700
families just by himself andvolunteers, the people who just
wanted to help run groceries,the folks who were afraid to
leave home.
And that's just one person tosay, Hey, I'm just gonna do it.
You know, so sometimes that'sall it takes is saying, hey, I,
you know, I know I'm just oneperson, but I'm gonna start

(01:10:08):
doing it.
And then that gives people theability and courage to say, hey,
I'm I feel that way too.
I want to get involved.
And then that, you know, thatsnowball effect of positivity
can be really powerful.
But it it takes it takes theability to say that, you know,
I'm gonna have the courage to tosay what I feel here and do
something about it.
And and like I said, I thinkBenji realized really quick he's

(01:10:29):
a lot more powerful than he knewuh at the beginning of all this.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:33):
So that's awesome.
That's a lot of reason why we dowhat we do here at the podcast.
So thank you for telling yourstory.
Everyone deserves to be listenedto, uh, get their voice out
there.
You know, why why would we wantto uh stop free speech?
So that's a great thing.
I'm glad you're able to come onhere and tell your story and
help other people see that, youknow, not just yourself, but

(01:10:54):
there's a team of people, andyou mentioned your executive
board.
So you guys are getting togethertrying to make things better for
your local, for all yourmembers.
So uh that's a tough thing todo.
Sometimes it may be a missionimpossible, but you gotta try.
And I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:08):
Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:09):
Appreciate you.
Thank you.
And so for everyone listeningout there that's tuning into the
Ask Deliver podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, Imean if you could subscribe,
leave a review.
Uh, if you have a question orconcern you want to talk to us
about and want to share it onthe show, we would love to hear
from you.
So we got that we have uh ScottWilkie from Local 638 on the
show, president now for 2026 andbeyond.

(01:11:31):
Hopefully, uh we'll see somegood things to come in the
future.
That's right.
And if you share this episodewith anybody so they can maybe
they'll have some concerns andwonder what's going on at the
local.
So here you have it.
Thank you for coming on theshow, Scott.
Thanks, buddy.
Take care.

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