October 30, 2025 • 47 mins
Bring the science and the human touch together with this episode's guest, board-certified dermatologist and product innovator, Dr. Jennifer Linder, who shares how to design treatments that are powerful, precise, and comfortable—without pushing skin into unnecessary inflammation. She unpacks the rise of senescent “zombie” cells and why they accelerate visible aging, the difference between senolytics and senomorphics, the sweet spot approach to peels, multi-tasking formulas, and how to apply these concept at the treatment table. If this conversation sparks new ideas for your room, subscribe for more episodes and leave a quick review so we can keep bringing you practical insights that elevate your results.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Aesthetic Report, a podcast for
skincare professionals who wantto grow in their careers by
hearing directly from theindividuals who have been there,
done that, and are paving thefuture of their industry.
Join us for the latest in allthings skincare, beauty,
wellness, business, and more.
From interviews with leadingexperts to the burning topics on
(00:22):
your mind.
The Aesthetic Report starts now.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Hello, hello, everybody, and welcome to the
Aesthetic Report, a podcast byDermoscope.
I am your host, AIA president,and director of education,
Michelle D.
Allard Brenner.
And the Aesthetic Report, as somany of you know, is for all of
you skincare professionals whojust really want to learn more
about how to make it in theindustry by hearing straight
(00:57):
from our industry leaders withour best one-on-one interviews
about all the latest dish on allthings professional skincare.
And today's guest is a trueleader in dermatology and skin
science.
She's a board-certifieddermatologist,
fellowship-trained skincaresurgeon, and clinical educator
(01:18):
at UCSF.
She is also the founder ofLinder Health, a published
author and a sought-afterspeaker.
With a background in biomedicalengineering and chemistry, she
has spent decades bridgingscience, clinical care, and
product innovation, includingher past leadership with PCA
skin.
(01:38):
It's Dr.
Jennifer Linder.
Jennifer Linder, please welcometo us.
Thank you for being here andthanks for your time.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
I am so excited to be here.
(02:14):
But I'm so excited to see youagain.
And not on the trade show floorwhere we got big heels on and
everything else.
It's kind of fun to go face toface.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
I was just thinking the exact same thing as you said
that.
I'm like, oh my gosh, the tradeshow floors.
And I know there's so manypeople still out there doing it,
but my gosh, that was like ourlife for the longest time.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
Absolutely.
I mean, it was what I alwaysloved about it is that direct
face-to-face connection.
And but it's sort of this is thereason why I do love Instagram
and stuff.
It's getting those direct DMsand questions for people, doing
podcasts like this, ways tocommunicate and connect.
I think that's what drives allof us to what we're doing in the
first place.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
Yeah, it does.
And it's funny because um werecently had a podcast that
we're done, and I've done apresentation.
It was, it was aboutcommunication.
And it's almost like we we had agap of a communication loss.
And now it's like all startingto come back again.
People want, they want to hearour voices, see our faces, and
something that just makes thingsa little more personal again.
SPEAKER_02 (03:14):
Well, it makes it human.
Yeah.
I mean, I think I think that'sreally the key to why we do all
that we do is that humanconnection.
I think this is the reason why II've love aesthetics and
aestheticians for so long.
It's I always think about whensomebody's there on the bed,
it's touching, it'scommunicating, it's that eye to
eye when you're doing theconsult.
(03:34):
And this is the way that we canbe eye to eye with a greater
community.
This is how we communicate witheach other now.
And I think that's the humannessof it all.
SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
Absolutely.
So, Dr.
Linder, your I mean, yourjourney has been really unique.
It's been very diverse.
I mean, there's so many thingsout there that aestheticians can
do.
And when you look at from yourmedical background and
aesthetics background andproduct background, I mean,
engineering, chemistry,dermatology, clinical teaching,
(04:05):
product development, how how doyou approach skincare in a way
that's uniquely yours?
Because your background is sodiverse.
SPEAKER_02 (04:15):
Well, I think when you sort of sum it up in the
simplest form, you can say I'mkind of a nerdy girl.
unknown (04:21):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
I love that.
It makes me happy, but it meansthat I have the ability to bring
in the science, and I like tobring in under really high
level.
And I've been lucky enough to beworking with the same team since
about 2005.
My team eventually followed mefrom PCA to Lender Health now,
but I have Dr.
Vakovich, who's been my organicchemist.
(04:43):
I have Danae Marklin, who's beenmy head of education and my
aesthetician, and like we worktogether as a team.
And I think that's what thebackground is.
It's realizing that I have thesedifferent ideas and different
forms of information.
And then I bring people in aswell.
And it's we we work in concert,but just like sorry, I'm getting
verbose.
So this is what happens whenI've had three cups of coffee.
(05:06):
Um is that it's taking thathigh-minded science and then
bringing it into the empathy andthe hands-on.
So it's that human plus sciencepiece that comes together and
understanding what it means tobring in the touch, to bring in
the nerdy science.
Like I read PubMed for fun, likeyou know, Google Scholar, bring
(05:28):
it on all day long.
But I think it's reallyimportant that we, I like to say
at Lender Health, we make thingscomplex but not complicated.
And I think that's what mypersonal goal is.
I'll take all the sciencey nerdystuff and guarantee you that I'm
gonna have it the absolute bestwe possibly can.
The fundamental idea is it'sgonna work because the science
(05:50):
is there.
But then I want to be able toexplain it and have it easy to
use so that I understand theclinical side, I understand the
product development side, theengineering, the chemistry, all
these different things.
But then what do we do so thatwhen you're actually with your
patient and client, that youknow it's gonna work?
Because trust is what it comesdown to, right?
(06:11):
Everything we do in our industryis about trust.
If our client doesn't trust us,then it's not gonna work, right?
But if you develop thatrelationship and it's there
because the science is there andit's there because you know it's
gonna work clinically and it'snot gonna hurt and it's gonna be
safe and all these things,that's the trust.
So that's the way I kind ofthink about it.
(06:31):
Is all that disparate, crazystuff I've done in my background
is to bring it together fortrust so that when you come to
me around product development,you know that you can trust what
we put in the bottle so thatwhen you recommend it or do it a
procedure on your client, youcan trust that it's gonna be
there and it's gonna be good.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
So I I love what you said because you're very unique
in the fact that, you know,generally um we're talking with
estheticians and encouragingestheticians to understand that
you have to know the skin, youhave to know your product
ingredients in order to be ableto make product recommendations,
to make treatmentrecommendations, because your
(07:13):
ultimate goal, as you just said,is to create that bond and that
trust with your customer.
What I find so unique about yourperspective is that you're also
saying it from a doctor'sperspective.
And oftentimes estheticians andtheir doctors don't look at it
the same way.
(07:33):
The doctor hires theaesthetician, sends the tells
the aesthetician what to do, andthe doctors don't have that same
perspective as the aestheticiansdo.
And then you're also saying itfrom a product development
standpoint, whereas productdevelopment is usually about
retail and sell.
And you you've taken all of thatand put that into you know the
(07:56):
core of how we try to howaestheticians try to understand
their clients.
I mean, I just think that's thecoolest thing.
I just, and it reinforces whatwe say to our aestheticians at
the exact same time.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
Exactly.
I mean, that's it.
It's like if we can all worktogether, we have the same goal,
right?
It's like it's about helpingthat patient and client get
better for them to feel moreconfident.
When they trust us, they'll dowhat we ask because it doesn't
matter what we recommend ifthere's not that compliance
there.
And compliance only comes fromtrust.
(08:30):
And so that's what it we've gotto get back to.
And that's where I thinkaestheticians are so important
is that empathy they bring, thelistening, the hands-on, the
taking the time and reallyexplaining it.
Because let's be honest, I mean,I can call out my compatriots
like we go too fast sometimes.
(08:51):
We like don't take the time torealize, okay, how does it work
into their life?
What's really going on?
Maybe you don't give them 30things all at once.
Like, let's make a plan.
So it's a long-termrelationship.
And I think that's where you gotto bring all of that in
together.
SPEAKER_01 (09:06):
Absolutely.
So, in working with, I mean, howlong did you have PCA skincare?
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
So, PCA skincare started as Physicians Choice of
Arizona in like 2005.
And I like to say it's like forthose of us that are old enough,
the old Remington micro screencommercials for the Razors.
Like, I like the company so muchI bought it.
And that's basically whathappened.
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:26):
I adored Margaret and Sarah, and the peels worked
for me.
I had melasma that I triggeredduring my laser fellowship.
So that was back in 2005, thatPCA became my full-time life.
And then I put a practice nextdoor and I was doing everything,
as you know.
And then 2018 is when PCA skin,like a student that goes off to
(09:47):
college, like goes off and theyhave their own successes and
their own failures, and they'vegot to figure it out.
And it's been fun to watch itcontinue to grow.
But it's it will always be myfirst child.
I um there's still products atPCA, I still order, but I know
the products are good.
And that's, and I think becauseI love this industry so much,
that's the reason why duringCOVID, when my original team and
(10:09):
I are, of course, like staytight, tight friends, right?
And we were, dude, we do productdevelopment for fun, like
literally mixing stuff in likemaking peels in my lab during
COVID, because that's what we doto keep ourselves entertained.
And they worked so well, we sortof decided there basically was a
lot, we there were things thatwe sort of realized were
(10:30):
missing, anyways.
But I now I forgot the originalquestion you just asked me.
I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (10:34):
No, you did answer it, but you kept going.
So that's even better.
No.
Okay.
So in working with PCA skin andnow Linder Health, along with
your your own medical practices,present and the past, looking
back over the years, what is onelesson from guiding product
development that has stayed withyou in your clinical work today?
(10:59):
Because those are, those aresort of I was gonna say they're
they're two different areas, butI I guess they go together too
when you're so committed to tomaking a difference with your
products as well.
But what is one thing that hasjust always stuck with you about
product development and clinicalwork?
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
So I think that what it comes down to is it really
should be multifactorial.
I think in my personal beliefsystem, the 18-step skincare
routine doesn't work.
So you need to make somethingthat is really does multiple
things.
And that comes down to not onlyunderstanding the ingredients,
but more importantly, what wecall the vehicle.
(11:38):
And I think this is the thingthat is often not understood.
I mean, I love the fact that theindustry has really gotten into
understanding ingredientsbecause I think, as you and I
both know, the science hasimproved so much over the last
couple of decades.
But the thing that I thinkpeople don't necessarily realize
is it's the product as a wholethat makes things come together.
(12:00):
So it's the vehicle, how does itget into the skin?
It is the ingredientsthemselves, but you can put
ingredients in there and theywon't necessarily do anything.
And it's not just about theconcentration, but it's how that
molecule is, whether or not it'slipophilic, lipophilic, an
ability to do both.
There are additional ingredientsin there that acts like the
(12:21):
vehicle.
We actually call that indermatology the vehicle because
you literally put like aningredient in a car that like
can take it through into theskin.
And that's how you get throughthis protective layer of the
skin and thinking about it as anactive organ that we're
interacting with, right?
It's it's a it's an environment.
So it's all that multifactorialMel U that works together to
(12:45):
make things work really well,and you have to consider all
those things to make somethingwork.
So just because something'slisted on the ingredient list
doesn't mean it's doing what youthink it's going to.
And you that's where you kind ofhave to trust your product
developers, the companies you'reworking with.
And again, it comes back totrust, right?
That's also the reason why Itell people, like, yeah, you may
(13:08):
be able to go buy a product, youknow, for a few dollars that has
an ingredient in it that youwant, but likely it's not in
there.
And the concentration with thevehicle is going to do the
things that you want to do.
Sometimes it's better to get thegreat right product and use less
of it.
You don't have to like whim in30 different things, just right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Buy one multi-factorial great thing.
Right, right.
You know, and it's interestingbecause I often have especially
newer aestheticians, but evensome of our seasoned
aestheticians that don't havethat full understanding, I say
the very the important questionsto ask when you're choosing a
product line and they're they'remaking particular claims is how.
(13:49):
If something is brightening theskin, how?
If it's increasing collagen,like how.
And if you understand thephysiology of the skin, you
understand that, you know,making that happen is really
hard to do, either any of thosethings.
That is, it's really, I mean,it's right up there with you
know, 95% impossible to dounless you have the proper
(14:12):
ingredient or the propervehicle.
So you have to ask why and howand get an answer that makes
sense.
SPEAKER_02 (14:20):
You're spot on.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
Thank you.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:23):
So, so listen, so today, you know, it's like like
how did you understand for solong?
Yeah, right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
That's it.
unknown (14:30):
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
I read a lot of books.
So you want to talk about thelatest in skin aging science and
longevity, particularlysenolytic and senomorphic
products.
And this is like the new hottopic.
These are products and how theyrelate to senescent or zombie
cells in the skin.
So our listeners out there areprobably saying, you know what,
(14:52):
Michelle, what in the world areyou talking about?
I have absolutely no idea.
So, will you take a minute anddescribe the senescent or zombie
cells in the skin?
What are they?
What are they there for?
What are they doing?
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Okay, so the one thing, obviously, especially
around Halloween time, zombiecells.
This is the I think this is thehottest topic across medicine in
general.
Senescent cells.
So senescent cells are thesecells that are created during
inflammation and aging.
(15:28):
We the latest studies show thatthey are one of the most
important parts of the agingprocess, especially when
combined with inflammation.
There's things called the 12harm marks of aging.
I can talk about this for sixhours.
But the big takeaway for youguys is zombie cells.
So when a cell ages, it caneither naturally be recycled
(15:49):
through something calledapoptosis, or it goes into this
state called senesis or a zombiecell.
So why do we call them zombiecells?
Because it's a cell that isusing up resources.
So it's still eating the oxygenand the food and all the good
things that we put into ourbody, but it's no longer
dividing, it's no longer makingnew healthy baby cells, which
(16:12):
means your skin is no longerturning over in a beautiful way
that you want it to in ayouthful way.
Instead, it's just sitting thereand it's leaking out the stuff
called SASP.
Basically, just think about itas the zombie cell converting
the cells around it into morezombie cells.
Okay.
So let me, all that Greek I justsaid is to say when you age,
(16:34):
especially when you're exposedto inflammation, the cells make
zombie cells instead ofnaturally recycling.
And more importantly, the worstpart is they turn the cells
around them that are healthycells into more zombies.
And they keep using up all theresources, resources, all the
good things you're doing, andjust turning more and more cells
into zombie cells, which meansyou're aging more and more and
(16:57):
more.
And this is the reason whyvarious different systems slow
down, you know, and this is alsothe reason why we talk about
inflammation, right?
And so that's all how it kind ofworks together.
And during COVID, this becameeven more apparent.
And it's part of the reason whyCOVID as a virus was so
destructive, right?
(17:17):
It's because it was triggeringso much inflammation.
And so that's the reason why Ikind of got obsessed with the
whole idea of senescence,longevity, and then mitochondria
health was mitochondria cellsare the cells that make energy.
So you kind of need to controlinflammation and increase more
energy for your cells to healthymitochondria to keep on a
(17:37):
pathway to healthy aging ratherthan destructive aging.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
So before we go into to the two other topics, to
senolytic, xenomorphic, andexplaining that, I want our
listeners, you know what, wehear the word inflammation.
And when we hear inflammation,it triggers such a strong
negative uh reaction.
But correct me if I'm wrong.
(18:04):
I mean, inflammation, we areinundated with it.
I mean, we're inundated.
It's it surrounds us in ourenvironment and the foods that
we eat and our stress levels.
I mean, it's not like you know,it's one or two things that we
can say, oh, you stop this andyou stop it.
You almost can't stop it,correct?
(18:26):
That is correct.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
So we live in a world that is constantly
inundating us.
We got we all of us knowintrinsic aging, extrinsic
aging, right?
Extrinsic aging are all thosethings from, as you said,
pollution, oxidants, the sun,the natural aging process, just
so many different things, right?
(18:48):
And inflammation is gonna behappening all the time.
So what we want to do is giveour bodies and cells the most
bandwidth to fight off againstinflammation, which is the
reason why antioxidants becamesuch a big hot topic, and like
everybody knows you gotta haveantioxidants in your skincare.
(19:08):
But you so you know that it'sgoing to be there, but what we
want to do is we want to controlhow much inflammation we expose
ourselves to as much as we can.
Now, why this is important isbecause when much of what we do
is about controlling the healingprocess of the skin, right?
(19:32):
So every every procedure we do,like treatments, all these
different things, is aboutharnessing healthy skin healing.
So we often do just a tiny bitof damage to something, then to
trigger the body to kind of wakeup and start the healing process
and make more collagen and morecell turnover and trigger
(19:54):
different cytokines.
So cytokines are part of theinflammation process.
But what has really happenedover the last few years is an
understanding that we don't wantto go too far into the healing
process and trigger too muchinflammation.
Instead, we want to find a sweetspot where we're doing a little
bit, and then we can trigger thebody to do wound healing without
(20:18):
as much inflammation.
So it's like get as much of thegood stuff without doing too
much too far.
So the reason why that'simportant is I think for too
long people were thinking moreis a good thing.
You gotta go deeper, moreaggressive lasers, lower pHs and
pills, you know, more, more,more, more.
(20:41):
It's like, no, take it back anotch.
You want to actually get to asweet spot instead so that
you're not turning as muchinflammation.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Makes perfect sense.
Okay.
It makes perfect sense.
Okay, so now let's walk intosynolytics and cenomorphics.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
So the easiest way to explain this is a senalytic
means that you're basicallykilling the zombie cell.
And a cinemorphic means thatyou're basically putting a big
hug around it and putting like afire blanket on top of the fire
and just tamping it out, butyou're not actually able to kill
the cell.
And it's it's it's moresemantics than anything else.
(21:21):
But when you're a nerd like me,words are important, but it
means that you take advantage ofboth of these characteristics
when you're doing productdevelopment so that you get the
best possible benefit of bothkilling the synolytic cells as
well like as well as calmingthem down so they don't turn the
surrounding zombie cells intomore, the surrounding cells into
(21:43):
more zombies.
Basically, you stop its abilityto create more zombies.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Okay.
So I have two questions for you.
Senescent cells, are theylocated in one particular layer
of the epidermis?
I mean, do we only find them,you know, in in the lower layer?
Do they move from the layer upeverywhere?
Everywhere.
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
All layers potentially.
Okay.
So of course, the higher you goup, the more you're gonna get.
Yep.
But yes, you can find themthroughout.
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
So in product development, when you're
utilizing either senolytic orxenomorphic products, and um
they perform whatever theirfunction, what their function
is, whether it's to wrap theirarms around or be done with the
zombie altogether.
What then happens to that cell?
Does it simply continue throughthe cell renew through the
(22:32):
exfoliation and cell turnoverprocess and just eventually die
off the come off the surface ofthe skin?
SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
So basically what it does is you then kind of go down
a different pathway calledapoptosis, which then means that
your body is able to recycle thecells so that you're using up
still all the good proteins andtakes it away through all the
different ways.
So it does both everything fromgoing, just as you said, as we
know, cell turnover, but there'sother ways that we break down
(23:00):
cells as well.
So basically, every way that anormal cell would be broken
down, we do.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Got it, got it.
That makes perfect sense.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
So but cell turnover is the easiest way to get things
to move along.
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
Got it.
That's like sort of the naturalway.
That's sort of just okay.
So in in either of thosesituations, too, what I I
understand.
So the uh you clearly, or youmade it very clear, you know,
what the objective and theirrole is.
Is there a downside to the skin?
I mean, is there is there anegative to the skin, such as,
(23:37):
you know, what excess use ofacids or retinols?
You know, we get the negativesof irritation, redness, skin
sensitivity, dryness.
Is there a downside to thesetwo, these two things,
ingredients being used inproducts?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (23:53):
And that's where we come back to inflammation.
So if things are reallyirritated, that's usually a sign
that we've gone a little toofar, right?
So, yes, there's a time and aplace, depending on what you're
trying to do.
But what I'm really trying toteach people is to step it back
a notch and be able to triggerthat cell turnover without the
(24:13):
inflammation.
Because as soon as you haveinflammation, you're triggering
the potential forpost-inflammatory
hyperpigmentation.
It makes it honestly moreuncomfortable for the patient.
And we all know if somebodystarts peeling on a peel skin,
you know, when it's that redskin underneath there and it's
raw, that's that's likeinflammation and irritation
there.
It's possible to get all thebenefits of peels that all of us
(24:36):
have loved forever.
I mean, guys, I have been doingpeel product development for 25
years.
I deeply believe in one.
I had one yesterday.
unknown (24:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
But we can do it better now.
And this is why I like to sayit's formulating for the future.
There's ways to take modernscience and know that we can do
it in a little different way andget better results with all the
good stuff.
You still get all the benefits,but you don't have to go to the
same downtime.
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
So, would you then say that their performance
objectives are similar tonon-inflammatory peels?
Would you put them in and I'mtrying to think of a
non-inflammatory peel, uh, maybea malik.
I mean, I'm trying to make it sothat our listeners can do some
comparison here.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
And that is actually the reasonwhy.
So, like, so myself and Dr.
Bakovich, when we wereformulating mandelic acid, is
actually the basis of a lot ofour peels because it's
non-inflammatory.
And the same thing withsalicylic acid.
So, salicylic acid is theperfect example.
Salicylic acid, remember,aspirin is salicylic acid,
(25:43):
right?
So it's a naturalanti-inflammatory.
The thing that I often findpeople do is they do higher
percentages than you need to do,and then all that stuff you see
in this, it's just the saltprecipitated out.
You don't need to put that muchon there to have the benefit.
And this is the reason whyblends of peels are so nice, is
you can take the benefits of thedifferent types of acids and get
(26:04):
them to work together.
And then if you put somethingin, when I do product
development for Lender Health,we put an ingredient in there.
We were talking about vehiclesbefore, a vehicle called
transcutal and some other onesas well that are proprietary
that allow the peels to go indeeper without having to use a
lower pH or a higher percentageto get increased penetration.
(26:25):
The vehicle actually is whatgets the peels to go in deeper
to get to where I want to havethe benefits without having to
have the downside and turninflammation as a result of a
lower, more acidic pH.
SPEAKER_01 (26:39):
That makes perfect sense.
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subscribe or by calling800-961-3777.
So that kind of leads into mynext question was what are some
(27:45):
other examples of xenomorphic orsenolytic ingredients aside from
salicylic, mandelic?
Are there others that just jumpoff the top of your head that
our listeners would be familiarwith?
SPEAKER_02 (27:57):
Oh yeah.
Okay, so two things that I andit's when they work together
synergistically.
Remember, synergistically meansthat you take one thing and you
combine it with something else,and instead of one and one being
two, it's one and one equalsfive.
So if you put the right type ofhyaluronic acid with niacin, you
actually get them to work as acinemorphic.
(28:19):
So they actually are able tocalm down senescent cells and
get those surrounding zombiecells to not be produced.
So what I love to do is do apeel, and I like to do this peel
so I was talking about a sweetspot before.
And a sweet spot of a pH betweenthree and three point five.
This is super important.
(28:40):
It's the pH, is part of whathelps develop that sweet spot.
And these studies came out inthe last couple years that
actually showed that in thatsweet spot they are synolytic.
In other words, they are killingthe zombie cell.
How cool is that?
That's and it's one of thesethings that again shows you,
we've known all along that peelshave magic in them, right?
But we didn't necessarily, wethought it was, oh, it's the
(29:03):
cell turnover, we're doingthings to trigger the fibroast
production, but we actually knowthere's more to it.
And in that sweet spot of a pH,it is about killing those zombie
cells.
So what I like to do is do thepeel.
And then because the skin is notinflammatory, I can put
additional products on them,like I have this new product
(29:23):
that I love that is acombination that includes
niacinamide and the right typesof hyaluronic acids to be
cinomorphic.
So you're getting even more of abenefit.
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
Now, you said something that is really
important, and I'm gonna back upfor all of our listeners that
are out there paying attentionto this because we don't pay
attention very well.
So you said ingredients, andpeople are hearing mandelic
acid, salicylic acid, hyaluronicacid, niacinamide, or they're
hearing these things andthinking, oh, here are the
ingredients.
But I think what you also saidis it's about a synergistic
(29:58):
relationship.
It's also about pH and these arethe big questions that our SDs
and people that are out thereare going to have to ask because
those ingredients by themselvesare not synolytics and
xenomorphic ingredients.
They need to be they need to beformulated the proper way.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
And that is about how it's how everything comes
together.
I like to say when you're I liketo bake a lot and when you take
eggs and flour and sugar andsome milk and stuff and you
combine it together, you canmake a million different types
of breads or cakes, right?
Like it's how the whole thingcomes together, how you cook it,
(30:38):
how you make it, what, whatother how much you know baking
powder you put in that resultsin what the end result is.
So yes, a salicylic acid feelsgreat as is a medallic and as a
malic all these different thingsthat we know but it is how it
comes together as a whole andthat's where the chemistry comes
into play.
And that's where it's like umit's like it's also like a
(30:59):
spaghetti sauce.
How you cook it makes all thedifference in the way it tastes.
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
That's right.
Makes perfect sense.
So you mentioned briefly butLinderHealth is launching a five
in one ultra adaptiveconcentrate.
And was that what you just madereference to a favorite product
of yours?
SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
That is my favorite product.
I am so proud of this.
It is it's like a culmination ofall my nerdiness put together
right so of course peels I lovepeels and treatments and the
fact that you can combine themtogether with different
modalities but I also wantedpeople to be able to do
something they could add on tothe treatment and more
importantly something they couldthen have the patient take home
(31:36):
with them.
So it's called a five and onebecause it does lots of
different things.
I feel like we got to respectpeople's dollars, right?
And so I would rather havesomebody use one amazing thing
that does lots of differentthings and a little bit goes a
long way.
I do a lot of Botox and fillersI've been an injector for all
(31:57):
the different companies foreverand it's always like okay how do
we get the magic in a bottlethat's kind of like a neurotoxin
and in Botox or fillers and thisis the closest thing I found
because it has a geraline.
We all know what aduline isthat's that peptide that works
on the same receptor as Botoxbut it also has five different
(32:18):
types of hyaluronic acid one ofwhich is small enough it
triggers your body to actuallystart making its own hyaluronic
acid from the inside out.
SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
Cool right that's really cool.
SPEAKER_02 (32:29):
Really cool that it has another one that acts as a
water reservoir inside the celland it actually gets in there
and hydrates intercellular.
So you're hydrating inside thecell then you of course got the
things that we know HAs do,which is forms a beautiful film
on top.
And then the hyaluronics we haveadditional kind that's
cross-linked so it's even doingmore 3D structural stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (32:51):
That's fantastic two of the pieces.
SPEAKER_02 (32:54):
Of course there's natural moisturizing factor and
what we're doing to prevent umwater loss.
It supports the microbiome sosuper important to think about
these things.
We all know you got to thinkabout that.
And then it's ultra adaptivewhich means if it is hot and
humid allows the skin to breatheand if it's dry or cold it
(33:15):
becomes more of an occlusive.
I mean how interesting is thatthat you could have an occlusive
and a and a um hyaluronic whatwhat am I thinking occlusive and
a um humectant oh my gosh seelike the brains all in one
product that adapts to what'sgoing on in the environment.
So there's just it does lots ofdifferent things.
(33:36):
And then of course the thingthat we're talking about today
is it does calm down thosezombie cells.
And that's what is super unique,super special is all these
different ingredients workingsynergistically together to
basically calm down the zombiecells you get that and that's
the secret in the sauce thatmakes the whole thing even work
(33:58):
that much better thatsynergistic approach.
Well and I would have to assumethen with but with its adaptive
abilities at the same time everyskin type correct every skin
type I have a teenage daughternaturally she has acne that's of
course under control because hermom's a dermatologist right but
she uses this I use it yeah itsort of I love to put it on my
(34:20):
cuticles so I love to I I'm abig believer when anybody gets a
face treatment I always do theirhands and necks too and I like
to like massage it into theirtheir little nails as well.
But it sort of works foreverybody every skin type and
that's what's kind of unique andmakes it easier.
SPEAKER_01 (34:39):
So I want to clarify to all of our listeners because
I know everybody out there isalso right saying like how do I
get my hands on this?
How do I do this?
So is Linder Health LinderHealth is is obviously your
business.
Yeah it's a product developyou're doing product development
as well is it are your productsspecific to your business or
(35:01):
anybody can estheticians canpurchase them for their
businesses.
Okay.
Are you doctor's offices only?
SPEAKER_02 (35:08):
Great question.
So I'm a big believer in the wayto get people products in
people's hands is through theesthetician and the doctor's
office in the medical spabecause I love the idea of
people having a conversationwith the human being to explain
why they want to do all thisstuff.
So the best way for anesthetician is for them to get a
hold of us at Lender Health.
(35:29):
You can reach out to me on mysocials which is just
JenniferLinder FD or our socialswhich is LinderHealth.
But yeah this is my this is my2.0 skincare company.
So basically it started out withI wanted to do chemical peels
again because I really saw thatnobody was doing it.
And Dr.
Vakovich and Danae and I alltook all of our knowledge from
(35:51):
working all over the worldbecause PCA was in 72 countries
and combining it together withall the nerdy science to make a
better peel company and you cancombine it with any treatment.
You can even do it with steam.
They can go and do exerciseimmediately afterwards you can
do it with microneedling andeven laser as long as the skin
comes down to a normaltemperature.
(36:12):
So it's so much more flexibleand adaptive to treatments
you're already doing.
We don't have minimums because Ibelieve you make it easy for the
esthetician, they're the expertto bring it into their office
they know what they're doing andit can be combined with things
you're already doing to makecustomized treatments.
(36:32):
And then the idea is that theskincare side is for you to be
able to you know sell and teachto your patients and clients and
we do drop shipping I'm allabout how do I make it easier
for the clinician because I'vebeen a clinician for so long.
Absolutely and I worked withliterally you know tens of
(36:53):
thousands of clinicians and soI'm always trying to listen and
be like okay what are the painpoints yeah and so it's like I
try to make it so a treatmentlike if you add a Linder peel to
any treatment you're doing itcan be a dollar a layer.
So in other words like you'redoing a full treatment six
dollars for your treatmentyou're just adding a layer on
after doing a microneedling adollar.
(37:14):
I like to call it the dollarglow up.
Yeah and it's sort of just it'ssomething simple you can do that
allows you to customizetreatments and we're fun we're
always looking for new things todo and sort of like to make it
better outcomes for the patientand makes our lives as
clinicians a little easier too.
SPEAKER_01 (37:31):
Absolutely so if a skincare professional wants to
and this is kind of a big wordbut future proof their career
while staying results focusedbecause we're a little all over
the board with you know betweenTikTok and social media and
everything that's out there inyour opinion where should they
invest their inner energy andtheir learning right now what do
(37:55):
you feel is is one of the mostimportant focal areas okay so
obviously I'm a little biasedaround the idea of inflammation
and senocils which is longevity.
SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
The other thing I would add to that mail you would
be mitochondrial health and thatwas also naturally played into
what we were doing in terms ofproduct development.
So learn about those things sothat when people are talking
about wellness and longevity,you're like, yeah, I see you I
understand I can help you withthat.
And then you can add, you know,that's the reason why we develop
(38:28):
lender health peels is so thatyou could add it onto treatments
you're already doing to be ableto add that component to what
your practice is already doing.
And it allows you todifferentiate yourself from the
person down the street as wellright so it's constantly
learning I think is the mostimportant thing you can do.
And also you know check out yoursources I mean the crazy things
(38:50):
I hear on TikTok like it'samazing.
SPEAKER_01 (38:53):
I know.
SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
But but use it as a you know you know if you're
seeing it your patients andclients are seeing it.
So educate yourselves.
Find reliable sources to educateyourself on one of the things we
did is when PCA was no longer mydirect everyday baby is started
creating a resource foraestheticians and clinicians
(39:14):
around skin education.
And that's where we startedfirst.
And then naturally when Idecided to do lender health we
rolled that into lender healthso anybody who becomes a partner
and to be a partner with us youjust need to get one product.
That is it like it's sort oflike easy I'm all about the easy
button you open up a door to allof our education and then of
course turn to people like you Imean this is what you're doing
(39:38):
is you're educating every singleday with experts.
Dermoscope has always been suchan amazing source 50 years of
information.
Like learn the history go backand educate yourself go dude I
still have old articles like Ihave my old magazines like I
pull these things out sometimes.
I'm cleaning out a storage unitI found an article I wrote in
(39:59):
Dermoscope from 2008 yesterday.
SPEAKER_01 (40:02):
Oh my God that's awesome.
Isn't that I mean like it's sortof like an antique yeah and a
lot of the stuff is stillrelevant right it is because you
know I mean we learn more aboutI mean we're talking about
senescent cells and themitochondria but bottom line the
physiology of the skin doesn'tchange it it doesn't change it
(40:24):
just reacts differently to ourenvironment and to new
ingredients.
But when you have that coreunderstanding as you referenced
several times you can explainthat to your clients and your
patients and it builds theirconfidence their trust and and
you have a client for life.
SPEAKER_02 (40:44):
Well and the thing I've always found is all of us
get into this field becausewe're natural caregivers.
That's the reason why we do thisin the first place.
Like most of us are not naturalsalespeople to start off with
like that's not and so for me Inever really enjoyed the sales
side of it but what I enjoyedwas educating.
Right.
And that includes educating myclient right like and so that's
(41:06):
what I say is I personallybelieve is the best way to sell
is by actually teaching.
Because then it's coming fromthe most authentic place.
You know it's actually going todo something and if you do that
and you tell somebody whythey're doing it and while
they're on the bed they showedup to your office because they
want to learn and get better.
(41:28):
So use the opportunity to talkto them and say and and I often
ask the question are you are youwanting just to chill out or are
you wanting me to also teach youa little bit about this and most
of the time they're therebecause they want their skin to
be better.
And so it's like an opportunityto explain okay this is why and
then they're engaged and thenthey're coming back to you and
they're trusting you and theyare compliant and they're going
(41:51):
to do what you ask.
So the other thing I like to dois I like people to engage more
frequently it's one of thereasons why because the peels
are not inflammatory you theycan come in every two weeks
which means that you can getthem better faster.
And the other thing is becausein the ingredients we put
together is they're not peelinglike sheets like skin.
It's coming off like littleteeny bits like dandruff.
(42:13):
So I tell them you're gettingthe same amount of change that
you would with the traditionalpeel but it's coming off in tiny
little bits which means itdoesn't have the same social
downtime.
Absolutely just makes it thatmuch easier.
SPEAKER_01 (42:25):
And then they trust me and it doesn't hurt is the
other thing it's all that trustright yep yep yeah and those you
know you don't run the sideeffects you don't have you know
the ramifications of them eithergoing out in the sun or peeling
at their face or using the wrongproducts or grabbing a scrub.
That's I just that's fantastic.
And I love what you said.
(42:46):
I am I'm hoping that there'shundreds of my graduates out
there that are listening to thisbecause we say all of those
things about we're not sellingwe're educating and we tell them
that all the time I and I'm Ifeel like like somebody else's
parent just told my child thathere's how they should do it and
now they're gonna listen.
That's exactly what happensisn't it true?
SPEAKER_02 (43:05):
Yes yes and it's just it also feels right in our
heart right like when I knowthat I'm teaching somebody that
that feels good too and I knowI'm helping them get better.
And it just is it triggers adifferent part of my brain and
and that's why we do this iswe're caregivers right that's
the whole point.
SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
Yeah.
And then it becomes exciting youget excited you just you're
exciting you know you you lendthat to them at the same time
and they're just they'reexcited.
Yeah it's it's the coolest it isso Dr.
SPEAKER_02 (43:38):
Linder before um we have to end every session with a
game but before that is thereanything that you and I did not
cover is there anything that Ididn't ask that you want our
listeners to know so one of thethings I think I want to share
is I feel such empathy for whenyou have a client comes in and
(44:01):
you spend a lot of time teachingthem, educating them and then if
you can't if you had to changetheir skincare then they leave
and then you potentially losethem right so one of the other
things we wanted to do when wedeveloped these products was you
can do a procedure the same dayyou do your consultation which
means because you don't have tochange their skincare routine it
(44:22):
doesn't matter if they're on aretina whatever they're doing
they can be on Accutane one ofour treatments.
We have treatments for literallyeverything and that means it for
me it eases my scheduling sothat I just assume if somebody's
coming to me they're going toget a treatment because that's
why they're coming is to gethelp.
(44:43):
That's right.
So not having to do thatconsultation separate from the
first treatment was everythingto me in terms and it was really
important to me that we figureout how to do that.
And that was one of the originalideas of why we wanted to be
able to control inflammation wasto be able to make that happen.
SPEAKER_01 (45:00):
That's fantastic.
Love it all right are you readyfor a game I'm ready for a game
okay all right so it's calledfirsts and favorites so I have
five questions for you.
Okay and I'm going to ask thequestion and you have to quick
fire an answer as fast as youpossibly can without giving it a
(45:21):
whole lot of thought.
You ready?
Here we go okay the first onethe first skincare product you
ever loved aquafore.
Yep favorite ingredient to teachabout vitamin C.
First professional conferenceyou attended that would be the
American Academy of dermatologya favorite thing about working
with estheticians?
(45:42):
How kind hearted they are yourfavorite aha moment in
dermatology transurpidermalwater loss.
Oh oh that's a great one that'sa look at that that was
fantastic I think that was oneof the best games we've had
those were great answers thosewere great answers.
Dr.
Linder thank you so much foryour time today I think this
(46:04):
information was fantastic andit's just it's so important to
learn about what's hot andwhat's new.
And I mean you clearly I meannot only just have an
understanding there's areasoning behind why you've done
this and you're coming from somany different perspectives and
I think that's really unique andrare.
So thank you for sharing all ofthat.
SPEAKER_02 (46:24):
Thank you so much for having me.
I loved our conversation I wouldlove to have more conversations
in the future I it's so good tojust see you eye to eye again.
SPEAKER_01 (46:31):
I know it's been a long time and I'm like oh my
gosh our hour is almost up I'vegot so many more things but
thank you so much and to all ofour listeners that are out there
thank you for spending an hourwith us on the aesthetic report
we are thrilled to have you hereum our podcast love you
Dermoscope loves you and we'llsee y'all next time take care
(46:52):
everybody bye take care everyonethank you for listening to the
aesthetic report be sure tosubscribe wherever you listen to
podcasts so you'll never miss anepisode.
SPEAKER_00 (47:03):
If you love the show leave a review on Apple Podcasts
and Spotify and tell all your SDbesties to give us a listen.
And don't forget the educationdoesn't stop here.
The aesthetic report is one ofmany platforms offered by
Dermoscope.
Visit dermascope.com for moreeducation and industry news from
the Authority on professionalskincare.
(47:25):
Stay tuned and we'll see younext time for another episode of
the Aesthetic Report
Welcome to the Aesthetic Report, a podcast for
skincare professionals who wantto grow in their careers by
hearing directly from theindividuals who have been there,
done that, and are paving thefuture of their industry.
Join us for the latest in allthings skincare, beauty,
wellness, business, and more.
From interviews with leadingexperts to the burning topics on
(00:22):
your mind.
The Aesthetic Report starts now.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Hello, hello, everybody, and welcome to the
Aesthetic Report, a podcast byDermoscope.
I am your host, AIA president,and director of education,
Michelle D.
Allard Brenner.
And the Aesthetic Report, as somany of you know, is for all of
you skincare professionals whojust really want to learn more
about how to make it in theindustry by hearing straight
(00:57):
from our industry leaders withour best one-on-one interviews
about all the latest dish on allthings professional skincare.
And today's guest is a trueleader in dermatology and skin
science.
She's a board-certifieddermatologist,
fellowship-trained skincaresurgeon, and clinical educator
(01:18):
at UCSF.
She is also the founder ofLinder Health, a published
author and a sought-afterspeaker.
With a background in biomedicalengineering and chemistry, she
has spent decades bridgingscience, clinical care, and
product innovation, includingher past leadership with PCA
skin.
(01:38):
It's Dr.
Jennifer Linder.
Jennifer Linder, please welcometo us.
Thank you for being here andthanks for your time.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
I am so excited to be here.
(02:14):
But I'm so excited to see youagain.
And not on the trade show floorwhere we got big heels on and
everything else.
It's kind of fun to go face toface.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
I was just thinking the exact same thing as you said
that.
I'm like, oh my gosh, the tradeshow floors.
And I know there's so manypeople still out there doing it,
but my gosh, that was like ourlife for the longest time.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
Absolutely.
I mean, it was what I alwaysloved about it is that direct
face-to-face connection.
And but it's sort of this is thereason why I do love Instagram
and stuff.
It's getting those direct DMsand questions for people, doing
podcasts like this, ways tocommunicate and connect.
I think that's what drives allof us to what we're doing in the
first place.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
Yeah, it does.
And it's funny because um werecently had a podcast that
we're done, and I've done apresentation.
It was, it was aboutcommunication.
And it's almost like we we had agap of a communication loss.
And now it's like all startingto come back again.
People want, they want to hearour voices, see our faces, and
something that just makes thingsa little more personal again.
SPEAKER_02 (03:14):
Well, it makes it human.
Yeah.
I mean, I think I think that'sreally the key to why we do all
that we do is that humanconnection.
I think this is the reason why II've love aesthetics and
aestheticians for so long.
It's I always think about whensomebody's there on the bed,
it's touching, it'scommunicating, it's that eye to
eye when you're doing theconsult.
(03:34):
And this is the way that we canbe eye to eye with a greater
community.
This is how we communicate witheach other now.
And I think that's the humannessof it all.
SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
Absolutely.
So, Dr.
Linder, your I mean, yourjourney has been really unique.
It's been very diverse.
I mean, there's so many thingsout there that aestheticians can
do.
And when you look at from yourmedical background and
aesthetics background andproduct background, I mean,
engineering, chemistry,dermatology, clinical teaching,
(04:05):
product development, how how doyou approach skincare in a way
that's uniquely yours?
Because your background is sodiverse.
SPEAKER_02 (04:15):
Well, I think when you sort of sum it up in the
simplest form, you can say I'mkind of a nerdy girl.
unknown (04:21):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
I love that.
It makes me happy, but it meansthat I have the ability to bring
in the science, and I like tobring in under really high
level.
And I've been lucky enough to beworking with the same team since
about 2005.
My team eventually followed mefrom PCA to Lender Health now,
but I have Dr.
Vakovich, who's been my organicchemist.
(04:43):
I have Danae Marklin, who's beenmy head of education and my
aesthetician, and like we worktogether as a team.
And I think that's what thebackground is.
It's realizing that I have thesedifferent ideas and different
forms of information.
And then I bring people in aswell.
And it's we we work in concert,but just like sorry, I'm getting
verbose.
So this is what happens whenI've had three cups of coffee.
(05:06):
Um is that it's taking thathigh-minded science and then
bringing it into the empathy andthe hands-on.
So it's that human plus sciencepiece that comes together and
understanding what it means tobring in the touch, to bring in
the nerdy science.
Like I read PubMed for fun, likeyou know, Google Scholar, bring
(05:28):
it on all day long.
But I think it's reallyimportant that we, I like to say
at Lender Health, we make thingscomplex but not complicated.
And I think that's what mypersonal goal is.
I'll take all the sciencey nerdystuff and guarantee you that I'm
gonna have it the absolute bestwe possibly can.
The fundamental idea is it'sgonna work because the science
(05:50):
is there.
But then I want to be able toexplain it and have it easy to
use so that I understand theclinical side, I understand the
product development side, theengineering, the chemistry, all
these different things.
But then what do we do so thatwhen you're actually with your
patient and client, that youknow it's gonna work?
Because trust is what it comesdown to, right?
(06:11):
Everything we do in our industryis about trust.
If our client doesn't trust us,then it's not gonna work, right?
But if you develop thatrelationship and it's there
because the science is there andit's there because you know it's
gonna work clinically and it'snot gonna hurt and it's gonna be
safe and all these things,that's the trust.
So that's the way I kind ofthink about it.
(06:31):
Is all that disparate, crazystuff I've done in my background
is to bring it together fortrust so that when you come to
me around product development,you know that you can trust what
we put in the bottle so thatwhen you recommend it or do it a
procedure on your client, youcan trust that it's gonna be
there and it's gonna be good.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
So I I love what you said because you're very unique
in the fact that, you know,generally um we're talking with
estheticians and encouragingestheticians to understand that
you have to know the skin, youhave to know your product
ingredients in order to be ableto make product recommendations,
to make treatmentrecommendations, because your
(07:13):
ultimate goal, as you just said,is to create that bond and that
trust with your customer.
What I find so unique about yourperspective is that you're also
saying it from a doctor'sperspective.
And oftentimes estheticians andtheir doctors don't look at it
the same way.
(07:33):
The doctor hires theaesthetician, sends the tells
the aesthetician what to do, andthe doctors don't have that same
perspective as the aestheticiansdo.
And then you're also saying itfrom a product development
standpoint, whereas productdevelopment is usually about
retail and sell.
And you you've taken all of thatand put that into you know the
(07:56):
core of how we try to howaestheticians try to understand
their clients.
I mean, I just think that's thecoolest thing.
I just, and it reinforces whatwe say to our aestheticians at
the exact same time.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
Exactly.
I mean, that's it.
It's like if we can all worktogether, we have the same goal,
right?
It's like it's about helpingthat patient and client get
better for them to feel moreconfident.
When they trust us, they'll dowhat we ask because it doesn't
matter what we recommend ifthere's not that compliance
there.
And compliance only comes fromtrust.
(08:30):
And so that's what it we've gotto get back to.
And that's where I thinkaestheticians are so important
is that empathy they bring, thelistening, the hands-on, the
taking the time and reallyexplaining it.
Because let's be honest, I mean,I can call out my compatriots
like we go too fast sometimes.
(08:51):
We like don't take the time torealize, okay, how does it work
into their life?
What's really going on?
Maybe you don't give them 30things all at once.
Like, let's make a plan.
So it's a long-termrelationship.
And I think that's where you gotto bring all of that in
together.
SPEAKER_01 (09:06):
Absolutely.
So, in working with, I mean, howlong did you have PCA skincare?
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
So, PCA skincare started as Physicians Choice of
Arizona in like 2005.
And I like to say it's like forthose of us that are old enough,
the old Remington micro screencommercials for the Razors.
Like, I like the company so muchI bought it.
And that's basically whathappened.
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:26):
I adored Margaret and Sarah, and the peels worked
for me.
I had melasma that I triggeredduring my laser fellowship.
So that was back in 2005, thatPCA became my full-time life.
And then I put a practice nextdoor and I was doing everything,
as you know.
And then 2018 is when PCA skin,like a student that goes off to
(09:47):
college, like goes off and theyhave their own successes and
their own failures, and they'vegot to figure it out.
And it's been fun to watch itcontinue to grow.
But it's it will always be myfirst child.
I um there's still products atPCA, I still order, but I know
the products are good.
And that's, and I think becauseI love this industry so much,
that's the reason why duringCOVID, when my original team and
(10:09):
I are, of course, like staytight, tight friends, right?
And we were, dude, we do productdevelopment for fun, like
literally mixing stuff in likemaking peels in my lab during
COVID, because that's what we doto keep ourselves entertained.
And they worked so well, we sortof decided there basically was a
lot, we there were things thatwe sort of realized were
(10:30):
missing, anyways.
But I now I forgot the originalquestion you just asked me.
I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (10:34):
No, you did answer it, but you kept going.
So that's even better.
No.
Okay.
So in working with PCA skin andnow Linder Health, along with
your your own medical practices,present and the past, looking
back over the years, what is onelesson from guiding product
development that has stayed withyou in your clinical work today?
(10:59):
Because those are, those aresort of I was gonna say they're
they're two different areas, butI I guess they go together too
when you're so committed to tomaking a difference with your
products as well.
But what is one thing that hasjust always stuck with you about
product development and clinicalwork?
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
So I think that what it comes down to is it really
should be multifactorial.
I think in my personal beliefsystem, the 18-step skincare
routine doesn't work.
So you need to make somethingthat is really does multiple
things.
And that comes down to not onlyunderstanding the ingredients,
but more importantly, what wecall the vehicle.
(11:38):
And I think this is the thingthat is often not understood.
I mean, I love the fact that theindustry has really gotten into
understanding ingredientsbecause I think, as you and I
both know, the science hasimproved so much over the last
couple of decades.
But the thing that I thinkpeople don't necessarily realize
is it's the product as a wholethat makes things come together.
(12:00):
So it's the vehicle, how does itget into the skin?
It is the ingredientsthemselves, but you can put
ingredients in there and theywon't necessarily do anything.
And it's not just about theconcentration, but it's how that
molecule is, whether or not it'slipophilic, lipophilic, an
ability to do both.
There are additional ingredientsin there that acts like the
(12:21):
vehicle.
We actually call that indermatology the vehicle because
you literally put like aningredient in a car that like
can take it through into theskin.
And that's how you get throughthis protective layer of the
skin and thinking about it as anactive organ that we're
interacting with, right?
It's it's a it's an environment.
So it's all that multifactorialMel U that works together to
(12:45):
make things work really well,and you have to consider all
those things to make somethingwork.
So just because something'slisted on the ingredient list
doesn't mean it's doing what youthink it's going to.
And you that's where you kind ofhave to trust your product
developers, the companies you'reworking with.
And again, it comes back totrust, right?
That's also the reason why Itell people, like, yeah, you may
(13:08):
be able to go buy a product, youknow, for a few dollars that has
an ingredient in it that youwant, but likely it's not in
there.
And the concentration with thevehicle is going to do the
things that you want to do.
Sometimes it's better to get thegreat right product and use less
of it.
You don't have to like whim in30 different things, just right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Buy one multi-factorial great thing.
Right, right.
You know, and it's interestingbecause I often have especially
newer aestheticians, but evensome of our seasoned
aestheticians that don't havethat full understanding, I say
the very the important questionsto ask when you're choosing a
product line and they're they'remaking particular claims is how.
(13:49):
If something is brightening theskin, how?
If it's increasing collagen,like how.
And if you understand thephysiology of the skin, you
understand that, you know,making that happen is really
hard to do, either any of thosethings.
That is, it's really, I mean,it's right up there with you
know, 95% impossible to dounless you have the proper
(14:12):
ingredient or the propervehicle.
So you have to ask why and howand get an answer that makes
sense.
SPEAKER_02 (14:20):
You're spot on.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
Thank you.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:23):
So, so listen, so today, you know, it's like like
how did you understand for solong?
Yeah, right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
That's it.
unknown (14:30):
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
I read a lot of books.
So you want to talk about thelatest in skin aging science and
longevity, particularlysenolytic and senomorphic
products.
And this is like the new hottopic.
These are products and how theyrelate to senescent or zombie
cells in the skin.
So our listeners out there areprobably saying, you know what,
(14:52):
Michelle, what in the world areyou talking about?
I have absolutely no idea.
So, will you take a minute anddescribe the senescent or zombie
cells in the skin?
What are they?
What are they there for?
What are they doing?
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Okay, so the one thing, obviously, especially
around Halloween time, zombiecells.
This is the I think this is thehottest topic across medicine in
general.
Senescent cells.
So senescent cells are thesecells that are created during
inflammation and aging.
(15:28):
We the latest studies show thatthey are one of the most
important parts of the agingprocess, especially when
combined with inflammation.
There's things called the 12harm marks of aging.
I can talk about this for sixhours.
But the big takeaway for youguys is zombie cells.
So when a cell ages, it caneither naturally be recycled
(15:49):
through something calledapoptosis, or it goes into this
state called senesis or a zombiecell.
So why do we call them zombiecells?
Because it's a cell that isusing up resources.
So it's still eating the oxygenand the food and all the good
things that we put into ourbody, but it's no longer
dividing, it's no longer makingnew healthy baby cells, which
(16:12):
means your skin is no longerturning over in a beautiful way
that you want it to in ayouthful way.
Instead, it's just sitting thereand it's leaking out the stuff
called SASP.
Basically, just think about itas the zombie cell converting
the cells around it into morezombie cells.
Okay.
So let me, all that Greek I justsaid is to say when you age,
(16:34):
especially when you're exposedto inflammation, the cells make
zombie cells instead ofnaturally recycling.
And more importantly, the worstpart is they turn the cells
around them that are healthycells into more zombies.
And they keep using up all theresources, resources, all the
good things you're doing, andjust turning more and more cells
into zombie cells, which meansyou're aging more and more and
(16:57):
more.
And this is the reason whyvarious different systems slow
down, you know, and this is alsothe reason why we talk about
inflammation, right?
And so that's all how it kind ofworks together.
And during COVID, this becameeven more apparent.
And it's part of the reason whyCOVID as a virus was so
destructive, right?
(17:17):
It's because it was triggeringso much inflammation.
And so that's the reason why Ikind of got obsessed with the
whole idea of senescence,longevity, and then mitochondria
health was mitochondria cellsare the cells that make energy.
So you kind of need to controlinflammation and increase more
energy for your cells to healthymitochondria to keep on a
(17:37):
pathway to healthy aging ratherthan destructive aging.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
So before we go into to the two other topics, to
senolytic, xenomorphic, andexplaining that, I want our
listeners, you know what, wehear the word inflammation.
And when we hear inflammation,it triggers such a strong
negative uh reaction.
But correct me if I'm wrong.
(18:04):
I mean, inflammation, we areinundated with it.
I mean, we're inundated.
It's it surrounds us in ourenvironment and the foods that
we eat and our stress levels.
I mean, it's not like you know,it's one or two things that we
can say, oh, you stop this andyou stop it.
You almost can't stop it,correct?
(18:26):
That is correct.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
So we live in a world that is constantly
inundating us.
We got we all of us knowintrinsic aging, extrinsic
aging, right?
Extrinsic aging are all thosethings from, as you said,
pollution, oxidants, the sun,the natural aging process, just
so many different things, right?
(18:48):
And inflammation is gonna behappening all the time.
So what we want to do is giveour bodies and cells the most
bandwidth to fight off againstinflammation, which is the
reason why antioxidants becamesuch a big hot topic, and like
everybody knows you gotta haveantioxidants in your skincare.
(19:08):
But you so you know that it'sgoing to be there, but what we
want to do is we want to controlhow much inflammation we expose
ourselves to as much as we can.
Now, why this is important isbecause when much of what we do
is about controlling the healingprocess of the skin, right?
(19:32):
So every every procedure we do,like treatments, all these
different things, is aboutharnessing healthy skin healing.
So we often do just a tiny bitof damage to something, then to
trigger the body to kind of wakeup and start the healing process
and make more collagen and morecell turnover and trigger
(19:54):
different cytokines.
So cytokines are part of theinflammation process.
But what has really happenedover the last few years is an
understanding that we don't wantto go too far into the healing
process and trigger too muchinflammation.
Instead, we want to find a sweetspot where we're doing a little
bit, and then we can trigger thebody to do wound healing without
(20:18):
as much inflammation.
So it's like get as much of thegood stuff without doing too
much too far.
So the reason why that'simportant is I think for too
long people were thinking moreis a good thing.
You gotta go deeper, moreaggressive lasers, lower pHs and
pills, you know, more, more,more, more.
(20:41):
It's like, no, take it back anotch.
You want to actually get to asweet spot instead so that
you're not turning as muchinflammation.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Makes perfect sense.
Okay.
It makes perfect sense.
Okay, so now let's walk intosynolytics and cenomorphics.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
So the easiest way to explain this is a senalytic
means that you're basicallykilling the zombie cell.
And a cinemorphic means thatyou're basically putting a big
hug around it and putting like afire blanket on top of the fire
and just tamping it out, butyou're not actually able to kill
the cell.
And it's it's it's moresemantics than anything else.
(21:21):
But when you're a nerd like me,words are important, but it
means that you take advantage ofboth of these characteristics
when you're doing productdevelopment so that you get the
best possible benefit of bothkilling the synolytic cells as
well like as well as calmingthem down so they don't turn the
surrounding zombie cells intomore, the surrounding cells into
(21:43):
more zombies.
Basically, you stop its abilityto create more zombies.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Okay.
So I have two questions for you.
Senescent cells, are theylocated in one particular layer
of the epidermis?
I mean, do we only find them,you know, in in the lower layer?
Do they move from the layer upeverywhere?
Everywhere.
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
All layers potentially.
Okay.
So of course, the higher you goup, the more you're gonna get.
Yep.
But yes, you can find themthroughout.
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
So in product development, when you're
utilizing either senolytic orxenomorphic products, and um
they perform whatever theirfunction, what their function
is, whether it's to wrap theirarms around or be done with the
zombie altogether.
What then happens to that cell?
Does it simply continue throughthe cell renew through the
(22:32):
exfoliation and cell turnoverprocess and just eventually die
off the come off the surface ofthe skin?
SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
So basically what it does is you then kind of go down
a different pathway calledapoptosis, which then means that
your body is able to recycle thecells so that you're using up
still all the good proteins andtakes it away through all the
different ways.
So it does both everything fromgoing, just as you said, as we
know, cell turnover, but there'sother ways that we break down
(23:00):
cells as well.
So basically, every way that anormal cell would be broken
down, we do.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Got it, got it.
That makes perfect sense.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
So but cell turnover is the easiest way to get things
to move along.
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
Got it.
That's like sort of the naturalway.
That's sort of just okay.
So in in either of thosesituations, too, what I I
understand.
So the uh you clearly, or youmade it very clear, you know,
what the objective and theirrole is.
Is there a downside to the skin?
I mean, is there is there anegative to the skin, such as,
(23:37):
you know, what excess use ofacids or retinols?
You know, we get the negativesof irritation, redness, skin
sensitivity, dryness.
Is there a downside to thesetwo, these two things,
ingredients being used inproducts?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (23:53):
And that's where we come back to inflammation.
So if things are reallyirritated, that's usually a sign
that we've gone a little toofar, right?
So, yes, there's a time and aplace, depending on what you're
trying to do.
But what I'm really trying toteach people is to step it back
a notch and be able to triggerthat cell turnover without the
(24:13):
inflammation.
Because as soon as you haveinflammation, you're triggering
the potential forpost-inflammatory
hyperpigmentation.
It makes it honestly moreuncomfortable for the patient.
And we all know if somebodystarts peeling on a peel skin,
you know, when it's that redskin underneath there and it's
raw, that's that's likeinflammation and irritation
there.
It's possible to get all thebenefits of peels that all of us
(24:36):
have loved forever.
I mean, guys, I have been doingpeel product development for 25
years.
I deeply believe in one.
I had one yesterday.
unknown (24:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
But we can do it better now.
And this is why I like to sayit's formulating for the future.
There's ways to take modernscience and know that we can do
it in a little different way andget better results with all the
good stuff.
You still get all the benefits,but you don't have to go to the
same downtime.
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
So, would you then say that their performance
objectives are similar tonon-inflammatory peels?
Would you put them in and I'mtrying to think of a
non-inflammatory peel, uh, maybea malik.
I mean, I'm trying to make it sothat our listeners can do some
comparison here.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
And that is actually the reasonwhy.
So, like, so myself and Dr.
Bakovich, when we wereformulating mandelic acid, is
actually the basis of a lot ofour peels because it's
non-inflammatory.
And the same thing withsalicylic acid.
So, salicylic acid is theperfect example.
Salicylic acid, remember,aspirin is salicylic acid,
(25:43):
right?
So it's a naturalanti-inflammatory.
The thing that I often findpeople do is they do higher
percentages than you need to do,and then all that stuff you see
in this, it's just the saltprecipitated out.
You don't need to put that muchon there to have the benefit.
And this is the reason whyblends of peels are so nice, is
you can take the benefits of thedifferent types of acids and get
(26:04):
them to work together.
And then if you put somethingin, when I do product
development for Lender Health,we put an ingredient in there.
We were talking about vehiclesbefore, a vehicle called
transcutal and some other onesas well that are proprietary
that allow the peels to go indeeper without having to use a
lower pH or a higher percentageto get increased penetration.
(26:25):
The vehicle actually is whatgets the peels to go in deeper
to get to where I want to havethe benefits without having to
have the downside and turninflammation as a result of a
lower, more acidic pH.
SPEAKER_01 (26:39):
That makes perfect sense.
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(27:03):
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So that kind of leads into mynext question was what are some
(27:45):
other examples of xenomorphic orsenolytic ingredients aside from
salicylic, mandelic?
Are there others that just jumpoff the top of your head that
our listeners would be familiarwith?
SPEAKER_02 (27:57):
Oh yeah.
Okay, so two things that I andit's when they work together
synergistically.
Remember, synergistically meansthat you take one thing and you
combine it with something else,and instead of one and one being
two, it's one and one equalsfive.
So if you put the right type ofhyaluronic acid with niacin, you
actually get them to work as acinemorphic.
(28:19):
So they actually are able tocalm down senescent cells and
get those surrounding zombiecells to not be produced.
So what I love to do is do apeel, and I like to do this peel
so I was talking about a sweetspot before.
And a sweet spot of a pH betweenthree and three point five.
This is super important.
(28:40):
It's the pH, is part of whathelps develop that sweet spot.
And these studies came out inthe last couple years that
actually showed that in thatsweet spot they are synolytic.
In other words, they are killingthe zombie cell.
How cool is that?
That's and it's one of thesethings that again shows you,
we've known all along that peelshave magic in them, right?
But we didn't necessarily, wethought it was, oh, it's the
(29:03):
cell turnover, we're doingthings to trigger the fibroast
production, but we actually knowthere's more to it.
And in that sweet spot of a pH,it is about killing those zombie
cells.
So what I like to do is do thepeel.
And then because the skin is notinflammatory, I can put
additional products on them,like I have this new product
(29:23):
that I love that is acombination that includes
niacinamide and the right typesof hyaluronic acids to be
cinomorphic.
So you're getting even more of abenefit.
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
Now, you said something that is really
important, and I'm gonna back upfor all of our listeners that
are out there paying attentionto this because we don't pay
attention very well.
So you said ingredients, andpeople are hearing mandelic
acid, salicylic acid, hyaluronicacid, niacinamide, or they're
hearing these things andthinking, oh, here are the
ingredients.
But I think what you also saidis it's about a synergistic
(29:58):
relationship.
It's also about pH and these arethe big questions that our SDs
and people that are out thereare going to have to ask because
those ingredients by themselvesare not synolytics and
xenomorphic ingredients.
They need to be they need to beformulated the proper way.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
And that is about how it's how everything comes
together.
I like to say when you're I liketo bake a lot and when you take
eggs and flour and sugar andsome milk and stuff and you
combine it together, you canmake a million different types
of breads or cakes, right?
Like it's how the whole thingcomes together, how you cook it,
(30:38):
how you make it, what, whatother how much you know baking
powder you put in that resultsin what the end result is.
So yes, a salicylic acid feelsgreat as is a medallic and as a
malic all these different thingsthat we know but it is how it
comes together as a whole andthat's where the chemistry comes
into play.
And that's where it's like umit's like it's also like a
(30:59):
spaghetti sauce.
How you cook it makes all thedifference in the way it tastes.
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
That's right.
Makes perfect sense.
So you mentioned briefly butLinderHealth is launching a five
in one ultra adaptiveconcentrate.
And was that what you just madereference to a favorite product
of yours?
SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
That is my favorite product.
I am so proud of this.
It is it's like a culmination ofall my nerdiness put together
right so of course peels I lovepeels and treatments and the
fact that you can combine themtogether with different
modalities but I also wantedpeople to be able to do
something they could add on tothe treatment and more
importantly something they couldthen have the patient take home
(31:36):
with them.
So it's called a five and onebecause it does lots of
different things.
I feel like we got to respectpeople's dollars, right?
And so I would rather havesomebody use one amazing thing
that does lots of differentthings and a little bit goes a
long way.
I do a lot of Botox and fillersI've been an injector for all
(31:57):
the different companies foreverand it's always like okay how do
we get the magic in a bottlethat's kind of like a neurotoxin
and in Botox or fillers and thisis the closest thing I found
because it has a geraline.
We all know what aduline isthat's that peptide that works
on the same receptor as Botoxbut it also has five different
(32:18):
types of hyaluronic acid one ofwhich is small enough it
triggers your body to actuallystart making its own hyaluronic
acid from the inside out.
SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
Cool right that's really cool.
SPEAKER_02 (32:29):
Really cool that it has another one that acts as a
water reservoir inside the celland it actually gets in there
and hydrates intercellular.
So you're hydrating inside thecell then you of course got the
things that we know HAs do,which is forms a beautiful film
on top.
And then the hyaluronics we haveadditional kind that's
cross-linked so it's even doingmore 3D structural stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (32:51):
That's fantastic two of the pieces.
SPEAKER_02 (32:54):
Of course there's natural moisturizing factor and
what we're doing to prevent umwater loss.
It supports the microbiome sosuper important to think about
these things.
We all know you got to thinkabout that.
And then it's ultra adaptivewhich means if it is hot and
humid allows the skin to breatheand if it's dry or cold it
(33:15):
becomes more of an occlusive.
I mean how interesting is thatthat you could have an occlusive
and a and a um hyaluronic whatwhat am I thinking occlusive and
a um humectant oh my gosh seelike the brains all in one
product that adapts to what'sgoing on in the environment.
So there's just it does lots ofdifferent things.
(33:36):
And then of course the thingthat we're talking about today
is it does calm down thosezombie cells.
And that's what is super unique,super special is all these
different ingredients workingsynergistically together to
basically calm down the zombiecells you get that and that's
the secret in the sauce thatmakes the whole thing even work
(33:58):
that much better thatsynergistic approach.
Well and I would have to assumethen with but with its adaptive
abilities at the same time everyskin type correct every skin
type I have a teenage daughternaturally she has acne that's of
course under control because hermom's a dermatologist right but
she uses this I use it yeah itsort of I love to put it on my
(34:20):
cuticles so I love to I I'm abig believer when anybody gets a
face treatment I always do theirhands and necks too and I like
to like massage it into theirtheir little nails as well.
But it sort of works foreverybody every skin type and
that's what's kind of unique andmakes it easier.
SPEAKER_01 (34:39):
So I want to clarify to all of our listeners because
I know everybody out there isalso right saying like how do I
get my hands on this?
How do I do this?
So is Linder Health LinderHealth is is obviously your
business.
Yeah it's a product developyou're doing product development
as well is it are your productsspecific to your business or
(35:01):
anybody can estheticians canpurchase them for their
businesses.
Okay.
Are you doctor's offices only?
SPEAKER_02 (35:08):
Great question.
So I'm a big believer in the wayto get people products in
people's hands is through theesthetician and the doctor's
office in the medical spabecause I love the idea of
people having a conversationwith the human being to explain
why they want to do all thisstuff.
So the best way for anesthetician is for them to get a
hold of us at Lender Health.
(35:29):
You can reach out to me on mysocials which is just
JenniferLinder FD or our socialswhich is LinderHealth.
But yeah this is my this is my2.0 skincare company.
So basically it started out withI wanted to do chemical peels
again because I really saw thatnobody was doing it.
And Dr.
Vakovich and Danae and I alltook all of our knowledge from
(35:51):
working all over the worldbecause PCA was in 72 countries
and combining it together withall the nerdy science to make a
better peel company and you cancombine it with any treatment.
You can even do it with steam.
They can go and do exerciseimmediately afterwards you can
do it with microneedling andeven laser as long as the skin
comes down to a normaltemperature.
(36:12):
So it's so much more flexibleand adaptive to treatments
you're already doing.
We don't have minimums because Ibelieve you make it easy for the
esthetician, they're the expertto bring it into their office
they know what they're doing andit can be combined with things
you're already doing to makecustomized treatments.
(36:32):
And then the idea is that theskincare side is for you to be
able to you know sell and teachto your patients and clients and
we do drop shipping I'm allabout how do I make it easier
for the clinician because I'vebeen a clinician for so long.
Absolutely and I worked withliterally you know tens of
(36:53):
thousands of clinicians and soI'm always trying to listen and
be like okay what are the painpoints yeah and so it's like I
try to make it so a treatmentlike if you add a Linder peel to
any treatment you're doing itcan be a dollar a layer.
So in other words like you'redoing a full treatment six
dollars for your treatmentyou're just adding a layer on
after doing a microneedling adollar.
(37:14):
I like to call it the dollarglow up.
Yeah and it's sort of just it'ssomething simple you can do that
allows you to customizetreatments and we're fun we're
always looking for new things todo and sort of like to make it
better outcomes for the patientand makes our lives as
clinicians a little easier too.
SPEAKER_01 (37:31):
Absolutely so if a skincare professional wants to
and this is kind of a big wordbut future proof their career
while staying results focusedbecause we're a little all over
the board with you know betweenTikTok and social media and
everything that's out there inyour opinion where should they
invest their inner energy andtheir learning right now what do
(37:55):
you feel is is one of the mostimportant focal areas okay so
obviously I'm a little biasedaround the idea of inflammation
and senocils which is longevity.
SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
The other thing I would add to that mail you would
be mitochondrial health and thatwas also naturally played into
what we were doing in terms ofproduct development.
So learn about those things sothat when people are talking
about wellness and longevity,you're like, yeah, I see you I
understand I can help you withthat.
And then you can add, you know,that's the reason why we develop
(38:28):
lender health peels is so thatyou could add it onto treatments
you're already doing to be ableto add that component to what
your practice is already doing.
And it allows you todifferentiate yourself from the
person down the street as wellright so it's constantly
learning I think is the mostimportant thing you can do.
And also you know check out yoursources I mean the crazy things
(38:50):
I hear on TikTok like it'samazing.
SPEAKER_01 (38:53):
I know.
SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
But but use it as a you know you know if you're
seeing it your patients andclients are seeing it.
So educate yourselves.
Find reliable sources to educateyourself on one of the things we
did is when PCA was no longer mydirect everyday baby is started
creating a resource foraestheticians and clinicians
(39:14):
around skin education.
And that's where we startedfirst.
And then naturally when Idecided to do lender health we
rolled that into lender healthso anybody who becomes a partner
and to be a partner with us youjust need to get one product.
That is it like it's sort oflike easy I'm all about the easy
button you open up a door to allof our education and then of
course turn to people like you Imean this is what you're doing
(39:38):
is you're educating every singleday with experts.
Dermoscope has always been suchan amazing source 50 years of
information.
Like learn the history go backand educate yourself go dude I
still have old articles like Ihave my old magazines like I
pull these things out sometimes.
I'm cleaning out a storage unitI found an article I wrote in
(39:59):
Dermoscope from 2008 yesterday.
SPEAKER_01 (40:02):
Oh my God that's awesome.
Isn't that I mean like it's sortof like an antique yeah and a
lot of the stuff is stillrelevant right it is because you
know I mean we learn more aboutI mean we're talking about
senescent cells and themitochondria but bottom line the
physiology of the skin doesn'tchange it it doesn't change it
(40:24):
just reacts differently to ourenvironment and to new
ingredients.
But when you have that coreunderstanding as you referenced
several times you can explainthat to your clients and your
patients and it builds theirconfidence their trust and and
you have a client for life.
SPEAKER_02 (40:44):
Well and the thing I've always found is all of us
get into this field becausewe're natural caregivers.
That's the reason why we do thisin the first place.
Like most of us are not naturalsalespeople to start off with
like that's not and so for me Inever really enjoyed the sales
side of it but what I enjoyedwas educating.
Right.
And that includes educating myclient right like and so that's
(41:06):
what I say is I personallybelieve is the best way to sell
is by actually teaching.
Because then it's coming fromthe most authentic place.
You know it's actually going todo something and if you do that
and you tell somebody whythey're doing it and while
they're on the bed they showedup to your office because they
want to learn and get better.
(41:28):
So use the opportunity to talkto them and say and and I often
ask the question are you are youwanting just to chill out or are
you wanting me to also teach youa little bit about this and most
of the time they're therebecause they want their skin to
be better.
And so it's like an opportunityto explain okay this is why and
then they're engaged and thenthey're coming back to you and
they're trusting you and theyare compliant and they're going
(41:51):
to do what you ask.
So the other thing I like to dois I like people to engage more
frequently it's one of thereasons why because the peels
are not inflammatory you theycan come in every two weeks
which means that you can getthem better faster.
And the other thing is becausein the ingredients we put
together is they're not peelinglike sheets like skin.
It's coming off like littleteeny bits like dandruff.
(42:13):
So I tell them you're gettingthe same amount of change that
you would with the traditionalpeel but it's coming off in tiny
little bits which means itdoesn't have the same social
downtime.
Absolutely just makes it thatmuch easier.
SPEAKER_01 (42:25):
And then they trust me and it doesn't hurt is the
other thing it's all that trustright yep yep yeah and those you
know you don't run the sideeffects you don't have you know
the ramifications of them eithergoing out in the sun or peeling
at their face or using the wrongproducts or grabbing a scrub.
That's I just that's fantastic.
And I love what you said.
(42:46):
I am I'm hoping that there'shundreds of my graduates out
there that are listening to thisbecause we say all of those
things about we're not sellingwe're educating and we tell them
that all the time I and I'm Ifeel like like somebody else's
parent just told my child thathere's how they should do it and
now they're gonna listen.
That's exactly what happensisn't it true?
SPEAKER_02 (43:05):
Yes yes and it's just it also feels right in our
heart right like when I knowthat I'm teaching somebody that
that feels good too and I knowI'm helping them get better.
And it just is it triggers adifferent part of my brain and
and that's why we do this iswe're caregivers right that's
the whole point.
SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
Yeah.
And then it becomes exciting youget excited you just you're
exciting you know you you lendthat to them at the same time
and they're just they'reexcited.
Yeah it's it's the coolest it isso Dr.
SPEAKER_02 (43:38):
Linder before um we have to end every session with a
game but before that is thereanything that you and I did not
cover is there anything that Ididn't ask that you want our
listeners to know so one of thethings I think I want to share
is I feel such empathy for whenyou have a client comes in and
(44:01):
you spend a lot of time teachingthem, educating them and then if
you can't if you had to changetheir skincare then they leave
and then you potentially losethem right so one of the other
things we wanted to do when wedeveloped these products was you
can do a procedure the same dayyou do your consultation which
means because you don't have tochange their skincare routine it
(44:22):
doesn't matter if they're on aretina whatever they're doing
they can be on Accutane one ofour treatments.
We have treatments for literallyeverything and that means it for
me it eases my scheduling sothat I just assume if somebody's
coming to me they're going toget a treatment because that's
why they're coming is to gethelp.
(44:43):
That's right.
So not having to do thatconsultation separate from the
first treatment was everythingto me in terms and it was really
important to me that we figureout how to do that.
And that was one of the originalideas of why we wanted to be
able to control inflammation wasto be able to make that happen.
SPEAKER_01 (45:00):
That's fantastic.
Love it all right are you readyfor a game I'm ready for a game
okay all right so it's calledfirsts and favorites so I have
five questions for you.
Okay and I'm going to ask thequestion and you have to quick
fire an answer as fast as youpossibly can without giving it a
(45:21):
whole lot of thought.
You ready?
Here we go okay the first onethe first skincare product you
ever loved aquafore.
Yep favorite ingredient to teachabout vitamin C.
First professional conferenceyou attended that would be the
American Academy of dermatologya favorite thing about working
with estheticians?
(45:42):
How kind hearted they are yourfavorite aha moment in
dermatology transurpidermalwater loss.
Oh oh that's a great one that'sa look at that that was
fantastic I think that was oneof the best games we've had
those were great answers thosewere great answers.
Dr.
Linder thank you so much foryour time today I think this
(46:04):
information was fantastic andit's just it's so important to
learn about what's hot andwhat's new.
And I mean you clearly I meannot only just have an
understanding there's areasoning behind why you've done
this and you're coming from somany different perspectives and
I think that's really unique andrare.
So thank you for sharing all ofthat.
SPEAKER_02 (46:24):
Thank you so much for having me.
I loved our conversation I wouldlove to have more conversations
in the future I it's so good tojust see you eye to eye again.
SPEAKER_01 (46:31):
I know it's been a long time and I'm like oh my
gosh our hour is almost up I'vegot so many more things but
thank you so much and to all ofour listeners that are out there
thank you for spending an hourwith us on the aesthetic report
we are thrilled to have you hereum our podcast love you
Dermoscope loves you and we'llsee y'all next time take care
(46:52):
everybody bye take care everyonethank you for listening to the
aesthetic report be sure tosubscribe wherever you listen to
podcasts so you'll never miss anepisode.
SPEAKER_00 (47:03):
If you love the show leave a review on Apple Podcasts
and Spotify and tell all your SDbesties to give us a listen.
And don't forget the educationdoesn't stop here.
The aesthetic report is one ofmany platforms offered by
Dermoscope.
Visit dermascope.com for moreeducation and industry news from
the Authority on professionalskincare.
(47:25):
Stay tuned and we'll see younext time for another episode of
the Aesthetic Report
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