August 1, 2026 • 51 mins
Over more than 30 years, Xackery Irving has produced hundreds of hours of nonfiction programming for The New York Times Television, History, and National Geographic. For his work on Brace For Oblivion, he was granted the p.g.a. mark by the Producers Guild of America. He currently serves as Co-Chair of the Employment Committee of the Producers Guild of America.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (01:15):
What happens after a picture lock may determine
whether your documentarydisappears or finds its
audience, wins awards, andbegins earning money.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
So glad you could join us on the Art of Film
Funding podcast.
I'm your co-host, Claire Papan,along with writer, producer, and
author, Carol Dean, president ofFrom the Heart Productions.
Today's guest is anextraordinary filmmaker whose
career has been devoted to thestories of courage, survival,
(01:52):
injustice, and the resilience ofthe human spirit.
Zachary Irving is a New Yorkfilmmaker whose films include
American Chain Gang, which wasnominated for Best Documentary
at South by Southwest, thefeature film Nothing Without
You, which screened at the SantaFe Film Festival, and his
(02:16):
powerful Ukraine frontlinedocumentary, Brace for Oblivion.
Brace for Oblivion recently hadits world premiere at the Galway
Film Flaw, where it won the BestInternational Documentary Award.
Remarkably, Galway was the firstfilm festival to which Zachary
(02:39):
submitted the documentary.
And the film was accepted andhonored with this prestigious
award.
For more than 30 years, Zacharyhas produced hundreds of hours
of nonfiction programming forthe New York Times, television,
history, and NationalGeographic.
(03:00):
His career includes fourdocumentaries, an award-winning
feature film, and decades oftelevision production.
For his work on Brace forOlivion, Brace for Oblivion.
Zachary was granted theprestigious PGA mark by the
(03:20):
Producers Guild of America.
He currently serves as co-chairof the Employment Committee of
the Producers Guild of America.
During today's conversation, wewill learn why Zachary dedicated
four years of his life and muchof his personal savings to
(03:41):
documenting the war in Ukraine.
We'll hear what it takes tomarket, find your audience, and
get the film to audiencesthroughout the world.
And Carol, you've known ZacharyIrving since the early 1990s.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:58):
Yes, Claire.
I met him uh when From the Heartpresented its first film grant,
first Roy Dean film grant in NewYork at the National Arts Club.
Um, Zachary had pitched his filmabout the chain gang.
And so I sat down, talked tohim, and we became good friends.
(04:18):
Uh, I believe the American ChainGang film helped bring national
attention to the heinouspractice of chaining
incarcerated men together, evenwhen they were simply working
outside or tending a garden.
They were chained together.
And so his film exposedsomething that the public needed
to see.
And I believe his work helpedbring an end to that terrible
(04:40):
injustice.
So we've been friends over 30years, and throughout his life,
he has shown tremendous courageand an unwavering commitment to
bring the truth to audiencesthrough documentary filmmaking.
And now he's made anotherremarkable and really deeply
important film.
So welcome, Zachary.
SPEAKER_00 (05:01):
Thank you so much, Claire and Carol.
It's so fun to be back with youtalking about independent
filmmaking and the journey uhthat we face once we've locked
picture and are looking to sharethe film for discovery uh within
the festival circuit.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Yes, this is the fun time.
So I want to talk to you aboutum what compelled you to enter
the war because and looking atsome of your short videos, which
I I really appreciate, but youput together a lot of two-minute
videos so we get an idea ofwhat's happening in the
Ukrainian war.
(05:39):
But one of them, there was thishandsome Ukrainian soldier, and
he said, I think you're crazy.
Your country is not at war, andyou can stay home.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
And yeah, you could stay home.
Uh, well, uh, we talked about inprevious discussions about how
the story chooses you.
And I think this was a casewhere I really thought that I
was choosing where I was goingand how this thing would unfold.
I initially entered Ukraine withnot a clear idea of what the
(06:14):
storytelling journey would be.
Uh, initially I was going to befollowing um journalists, war
photographers, some that I knew,some through some I knew through
friends and volunteers, but itturned into something um in a
different path.
It was actually about theUkrainians.
Uh, so you know, I wasn't drawnto the war as much as I was
drawn to this the people andthis incredibly compelling story
(06:41):
of people within days ofRussia's full-scale invasion,
ordinary citizens that weremaking extraordinary decisions,
you know, scientists, if you seethe film, artists, students, uh,
engineers, former soldiers, allvolunteering to defend their
country overnight.
(07:02):
And I think, yeah, sorry, Carol,go ahead, please.
SPEAKER_02 (07:05):
No, I think that's amazing.
The whole country rose togetheras a unit.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
It did.
And over time, you know, thestory is of, you know, uh my
film is a portrait of seven of ahundred thousand that stepped up
to uh shore the gap of aninvasion, and in light of what
the world was saying to them,which was you're gonna be facing
erasure, oblivion, brace for it.
(07:31):
And they took that in the theythat warning, uh, I guess was
not as important as theirvalues.
And that resonated, I think,with most people in the world.
You know, I felt there was animportant story unfolding
beneath the headlines, you know,reading about it, something
(07:52):
about it I just wanted to getcloser to.
And I knew that, you know,Ukraine is not a country at war.
It's it's a it's a place, it's ahome to people.
And I felt like it would be souh much better to tell the story
from, you know, initially myidea was to tell it from people
(08:15):
who were helping by telling thestory as journalists or
photographers or volunteers.
But what we really felt was thething that resonated most with
me was telling the story fromthe inside.
Um, you know, and much of thatexperience is just uh clicked
with me.
And in making the film, youknow, once I understood what the
(08:36):
narrative was going to be, itwas something that followed
through to today, which is yourthe storytelling guides you from
when you're uh formulating whatthe film might be as you're
making it.
You're kind of in this whirlwindof uh storytelling in the middle
of it.
(08:57):
But as you're finding your truenorth of what the story is as
you're working on it, and mostfilms take years, you're also
creating a storyline that willcommunicate to your audience,
your festival audience andbeyond what resonates with you,
what is truly powerful about it.
And that, if you put that first,that's always going to be a good
guiding principle for you as anindependent filmmaker.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
That's good advice.
So let's get into what happensafter picture lock.
So, because many filmmakersbelieve finishing the edit is
the end of the journey, butreally it's the beginning of an
entirely new chapter.
So um what were first pieces?
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
I'd like I'd like the idea to be that I batted a
thousand and the first time Isubmitted, I got into a
festival.
That wasn't the case.
Uh, but I could sort of saythat, you know, the the a big
thing to remember right now isthis is probably um the most
competitive time for independentfilmmakers, particularly when it
(10:01):
comes to finding a place in umin the you know in the community
of uh in the film festival uh uhschedule.
And um, you know, so most peopleuh what I used to think, Carol,
was once you've got picturelock, you're kind of debuting
(10:21):
your film to the world and itkind of unfolds in its own path.
And that passive, semi-passive,you can't be passive when you're
releasing something, but thatidea that cream will rise to the
top, you make the best film youcan, and it'll get recognized.
That's probably was never a goodway to think about it.
And clearly now, with um, youknow, thinking the
(10:43):
responsibility is making thebest film you can and the FS
will find you, build it and itwill come.
It's now uh you should bethinking about it as this is
graduation day, and you know,your film is finished, but your
um your job changes from thatpoint forward completely.
(11:04):
You're not just a filmmaker,you're kind of an entrepreneur,
you're wearing a lot of hats,and those hats can be worn by
people who are part of your teamthat you trust and know.
But those responsibilities shiftfrom filmmaker to strategist,
marketer, publicist, coordinatorfor the festival rollout, and in
(11:27):
my case, community builder.
You're trying to increase,you're trying to be kind of your
own distributor from the momentof picture lock forward.
You know, conversely, like backin the day, right, we would
think that you just have to putit out into the field of for
people to discover it.
(11:47):
There was such an appetite inthe 90s and 2000s for really
great independent content toreach a hungry audience that
wanted to hear and see um newstories.
And now it's a little different.
You have to wear all those hats: strategist, marketer, publicist, (12:01):
undefined
coordinator of festival, andcommunity builder.
Uh, because you've got to um, aswe're going to talk more and
more, and something you'vetalked about on your podcast, is
you need to think about thingsas uh building.
You're building a distributionum uh stream, you're building a
(12:21):
connection with your audience.
It's a lot about building thesedays.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Well, how did you develop your festival strategy?
Because there are thousands offilm festivals.
So how did you decide which oneswere right for your film?
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
Well, that's good.
I I think we probably youraudience will um relate to this.
You know, um, there are like theuh basically there's there's
more slots, there's more umreally great films than there
are slots out there.
In fact, the news was fromSundance last uh time, they have
(12:58):
160 slots.
They had at least 160 slots.
Uh, they're moving to Boulder,maybe they'll have more, I don't
know, and 16,000 entries.
So that's 1% acceptance rate.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
Right.
So, and that's for films thatare, and many of them probably
already have um the theprogramming committee has their
eyes on them for various reasonsfrom earlier on, whether they're
films that were that wentthrough the Sundance Institute
or films that um are going to belooked at, uh probably uh in
higher regard because offilmmakers that have played
(13:32):
there before, you are um you'reyou're looking at you know that
scenario.
So instead of necessarily, anddon't prevent yourself from
taking big swings at bigfestivals, but maybe a shift
from what's the biggestfestival, instead of asking
yourself that, maybe startasking which festival is the
(13:53):
right fit for your film.
Because it's so competitive tobe an independent filmmaker, you
start with that question and youstart thinking about what is the
story of the rollout of yourfilm.
So in doing that, you need toalign what I would think is this
is a relationship.
(14:13):
And what are the festivals thatare out there are best aligned
with what your values of yourfilm are, what your qualities
are, where the salient pointsare, what story uh, you know,
qualities are there that thatrelate to the festival you want
to get into.
And it's not just like, youknow, 1% chance, maybe less than
(14:34):
1% chance with most prestigiousindependent film festival in the
world.
Seems like maybe you're buying alottery ticket, doesn't it?
But instead of right, instead ofthinking about that, think about
your film festival entries as aninvestment.
And do your research, find outwhat the goals of the festival
are, what the ethos is, who theprogrammers are, what they've
(14:57):
played before, and start to seehow your film is a lot aligned
with the potential filmfestivals you're submitting to.
So be strategic basically, in away that's really authentic.
SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
Well done.
All right.
Well, why did you choose Galway?
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
Galway was just a great fit for a lot of reasons.
Number one, it's a festival thatis uh well established.
It's just it was in its 38thyear.
It's uh the most um uh you knowprominent in in Ireland.
And Ireland's a great place tostart for the film because of
its large Ukrainian communityand Ireland's support for
(15:37):
Ukraine.
So it just felt like a reallygood place to um launch the
film.
Also, you know, we talked aboutquality, you know, what being
aligned with the philosophy of aof a film festival.
Well, Galway is though it's it'sum an important festival that
has a lot of attention um fromthe film community, it's also
(15:58):
just very grassroots, it's veryopen.
And, you know, the team that wasthere to represent the film was
very much like that.
I came with um, I was verylucky.
I had James Feeney, the verytalented editor, who came with
us.
Um, we had, yeah, my co-producerRick Santos, uh, who helped
(16:22):
shape the film by watchingseveral cuts and was my only
contact while I was in Ukraine.
Um, LB Kerr Gilman, who was uhhelping coordinate and shape
outreach and helping us uhconnect and publicize the film,
someone I've known for years.
Uh when I went to film school,uh she and I uh became friends
(16:43):
and uh we've worked on eachother's project.
So, you know, I talked about allthese hatchy wear.
It's you know, the place, aplace where you want to
communicate to a film festival,you're gonna bring some value.
Sometimes that value iscommunity.
And the thing about Galway wefound is community is really
valued.
So we were able to, though thethe you know, the staff is very,
(17:05):
very busy, we were able to comeby and check in with them.
And one of the things that we umuh we can talk about this in a
little bit, but you always wantto add value to your screening.
And one of the things that wedid was we were very lucky in um
having one of the survivingsubjects, one of seven, come
(17:27):
from the war zone in Ukraine andget sp permission from his
commander to join us in Ireland.
Oh, and it resonated so wellwith the audiences, with the
festival, and with Ukrainian umcommunity members to have him uh
(17:48):
be there as a part of our notjust to represent the team,
Carol, but to be part of thatteam I mentioned.
We were all there in it togetherto um create this experience for
the film, to represent the film,and to interact with this kind
of open sense of community atGalway.
SPEAKER_02 (18:09):
That's incredible.
Well, tell me how uh did youprepare for the world premiere?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Yeah, so uh, well, it wasn't just buying a plane
ticket and getting that DCPready.
It was preparing not just forthe screening, but it was
preparing an experience.
So I should say that, you know,one of the things you should be
thinking about, your youraudience when you're getting
(18:37):
ready in a festival said yes, isbeyond those preparations of how
you get there and how your filmgets there, is you know, those
those um hats you wear ofpublicist, strategist,
coordinator, you know, buildingthis community, think about
those things and how you can doit.
(18:58):
Uh, two of my good friends uhwho are uh very experienced and
well-respected filmmakers, um,Patrick Farrell and Kato
Callahan, uh have advised methroughout the years.
And one of the things they saidis what's important is you need
to shift the focus from whereyour film, what the festival can
(19:20):
do for you and what you can dofor the festival.
Bums and seats is what they saidin quotes.
Bums and seats.
Get the festival uh, you know,venue filled with um people who
um, you know, you the festivallikes it when you can um promote
the film and create thisexperience.
(19:41):
So part of the experience andpart of this storytelling is
what we would provide is notjust a screening of a film that
we're proud to show the world,but an introduction and a Q ⁇ A
with someone who lives theexperience uh that lives the
experience past the final frameof the film.
(20:02):
And afterwards, we encouraged,and beforehand, we encouraged
people to come and talk with us,and particularly his name is
Bogdan Patel, junior lieutenantBogdan Patel, to talk about what
his experience is, you know,facing um uh the dangers of of a
of a war zone and what it's liketo have grown up.
He was 19 when we began thefilm, he's 23 now.
(20:24):
So what we wanted to do isprepare for an experience.
And that's what I would suggesteverybody to do, you know, as
like Patrick and Kate says,don't ask what your festival can
do for your film, but what yourfilm can do for the festival.
That's a really good guidingprinciple.
Don't take for granted that onceyou've gotten to a film, it's
all gonna sort of launch fromthere.
(20:48):
Be a part, be a partner in aline with that festival that
you've done your research uh tosee that you know this is a good
candidate for you submitting.
Once you're there, go with that.
See what's you have in in uhline with it and bring uh bring
a lot of value to it.
SPEAKER_02 (21:04):
Well, how did you attract press attention?
Okay, that's really important.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Well, it's it's back to the storytelling.
You know, you're you're tellinga story, you're bringing the
value you're bringing issomething that we're we're we're
also trying to bring with thosevideos you mentioned, the the
behind the scenes, the making ofvideos.
We're creating a story of whatthe film is about.
We're collecting um stories frommaking it, but in resonating
(21:32):
that, you are you have anarrative to go to.
So remember, journalists aren'tcovering movies, they're
covering stories.
So you what's your story?
You know, rather than justsetting blasting a press
release, you identify thereporters, the podcasts, the
morning shows, the newspapersthat care about, for in my
(21:54):
instance, in this instance,Ukraine, documentary filmmaking,
um, human rights, internationalaffairs, the process of making a
film.
Um, you know, and and so you'reagain, you're aligning what your
story is with those presspeople, uh with those
journalists, with those uhpodcasters.
And don't be shy.
(22:16):
Reach out to them.
They uh, you know, they theywant to engage with their
audience too.
But I guess what I'm trying tosay is that this whole
storytelling that you're doing,this value that you're bringing,
it starts while you're makingthe film and while you're
identifying what is important uhfor the world to see as you're
(22:39):
developing it.
That carries forward.
And so your story uh you'retrying to attract press
attention with is we have thisstore, this film that's very
important.
It should probably always bethis is the story that's
important to me, and this is whyit might be important to your
audience.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Excellent.
Well, and so how did you buildyour community support?
You went out to the community uhwith your story to get them into
the theater, is that how you?
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
In it exactly, and that's so key.
We were really lucky.
One of the um journalists thatconnected with our our film was
Teresa Mannion, um, uh, an aceuh reporter in uh RTE, and we
had our film covered on thenightly news 6-1.
And um that was part of um notjust reaching out to her, but
(23:35):
right away uh we had help frompeople within the community, uh,
the Embassy of Ukraine inIreland, um, Telegram and
WhatsApp channels, um, localfilmmakers like Kate and Patrick
who could help us identifyconnections to that community,
(23:56):
uh, and invite them to be there.
So everything from uh you know,seeing where things resonate,
one discussion with one personwill open up another discussion
point, which is you know, youmight find um you connect with
somebody on an Instagram thread,uh, you know, do searches for
us, it was Ukrainian communityin Ireland, um, do searches for
(24:20):
other people that are uh youknow posting that have a
community.
And one of the things we did waswe recorded videos, these in the
spirit of the behind-the-scenesvideos, we recorded videos with
the soldiers, Bogdan and thecommander, who could not be
there, but Bogdan could, inUkrainian, saying, Hey, the
(24:41):
film, the film's happening onthis date and this time, July
10th at uh 2.25 p.m.
Uh, um, would love to see you inUkrainian.
I'll be there, or I'd like to bethere, depending on who was
saying it, but speaking theirlanguage and encouraging them
not just to come, but to havethis experience we talk about,
sense of community.
(25:01):
So um it's from a lot ofdifferent directions, and it's
part of your building on thestorytelling.
You know, you're you're creatingnew new content, so to speak,
that's very specific to thecommunity support you're trying
to build.
SPEAKER_02 (25:16):
Well, and then when you screened it, uh, how did you
engage the audience?
Because you uh tell us how youput that all together.
SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
So once you have it as you know, you know, I'm being
very specific to our film andit's related to Ukraine and and
human rights and uh andinternational um, you know, uh
geopolitics, uh, and it butessentially it's it's a story
about human beings and people,and whether you care about any
of that or not, we make a filmthat's about relationships and
(25:46):
about people.
That's an aside from yourquestion, but that's also
guiding us, you know.
So after we created this event,it's starting to be something
more than that.
You're beginning a relationship,you're furthering your
relationship with a festival whois kind enough to provide you a
screen or two for your um yourdiscovery, but that's really
(26:08):
what film festivals provide byand large is discovery.
And it's discovery by the peoplein that room.
So you're creating arelationship.
And I I think about that in theintro and the QA.
This film is for you, and youlet them know that um we're just
that this is something biggerthan just the screening
(26:28):
afterwards.
We had Bogdan there, thefilmmaker.
I'm sorry, I think of him as afilmmaker, the subject of the
film.
And we really use that totransform the discussion.
So he was, you know, we talkedabout, we entertained any
questions about the making ofthe film, but we really want to
transform that into discussionabout what he was experiencing.
Because while he was there for afew days, he was also gonna be
(26:51):
returning to his own journey.
And we wanted to have that besomething unique to that
audience experience of our worldpremiere.
So we talked, we listened, wemet people before the screening.
One of the messages we gave wasif you come a little earlier,
we're all gonna be here and we'dlove to talk to you and then
encourage people afterwards inour Q ⁇ A.
(27:13):
We're gonna be outside, we'realso gonna be, we're in Ireland,
we're gonna get a pintafterwards.
Let's continue this relationshipof filmmaker to audience and
really let's bring that linedown of screen to to um uh
filmgoer to something that is umthat's alive and continues.
SPEAKER_02 (27:34):
Oh, that's brilliant.
Now let's get into after you wonthe award, um, were you able to
use the award to attract morefestivals or press coverage or
screening partners?
SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
Yeah, you know, um, so many times it's easy to get
in this trap of chasing laurelsand awards.
And though it's great to win anaward, and I'm so honored, and I
know everyone else is, um it'suh important to keep in mind as
we're all as we're allfilmmakers and on the same path,
is to remember awards don'tchange your film.
(28:09):
They it seems like they do, butwhat they do is keep in mind
they change the conversationaround your project, around your
film.
So in our case, we have ourworld premiere and we want to
play more places.
We happen to win BestInternational Documentary, and
it was a thrilling experience.
(28:30):
But in getting this award,immediately we started sending a
press release to let people knowof this because we want to have
this experience that we'redescribing happen and be
replicated, to have this um notjust this uh screening, but this
experience and this engagementand this relationship to expand.
(28:54):
So right away um we startedsending out emails, letting us
let letting people know of thenews and also the narrative that
we were there, we engaged withthe community, we had a pretty,
you know, we had a greatturnout, we also had you know
coverage on on television, butwe did that not to promote the
film, we did that to continuethis engagement.
(29:14):
And um, what that did, whatwinning the award changed was
people were returning our emailsquickly, journalists became
curious, and you're gonna findnew opportunities appear.
Um, but you know, the filmstands on its own, the film has
to deliver.
And um, you know, filmmakers, Ijust say invest in the festival
(29:36):
itself.
If you're gonna be engaged,generous with your time, be
supportive, be engaged whileyou're at that festival.
And it's really important tothink about what winning that
award is gonna do, but followthrough with with your
relationships you have with thethe audience that came to your
film, the um the staff, uh theprogrammers, um, the community.
(30:00):
Remember that while you're stillthere because those
relationships can be as valuableas the award.
SPEAKER_02 (30:06):
Well, did you capture the any of the email
addresses of the people whoattended?
SPEAKER_00 (30:12):
That's such an important thing to do, Carol.
And it's something I did not do.
I got names, I got Instagram, Igot contacts in other ways like
WhatsApp and all those things.
But you're right, that emaillist is as important as it was
when we started this, and thenyou know, when I started, at
(30:32):
least in the 90s, is you want tocontinue that journey for the
people who are interested enoughto engage with you where the new
screenings are.
Building that email list isessential.
And that's something I think umI'm gonna make sure we we are
very uh focused on uh for ournext screenings.
SPEAKER_02 (30:52):
Do you remember the old clipboards that Alvin
produced?
A clipboard with a lined papersaying, please keep me informed
about this film and pass that,have people pass it to the
audience while you have theafterboard QA.
That's what I would recommend.
(31:13):
It's so valuable.
SPEAKER_00 (31:15):
Pen, paper, and a clipboard.
You know, that's that's nevergoing to be obsolete.
Let's get these emails going.
And uh yeah, and it, you know,and in the act of doing that,
that that's that's engagement,you know, and that's also you're
thinking about, you know, a lotof what I'm describing is is you
know, continuing this storyline.
Um, but there's uh there reallywhat you're doing is you're
(31:38):
making a film not forjournalists and festivals,
though that's so important.
You're making a film for theaudience, and this is the core
audience, the people that cometo see your festival, your film.
And their word of mouth is asimportant as social media
because they're they had anexperience that you um
participated in with them.
With so having those emailaddresses, yeah, absolutely.
(32:01):
No, Carol, yeah, a paper uh witha nice uh intro, like still
let's stay engaged here.
SPEAKER_02 (32:09):
Uh Zachary, Jonah Berger wrote a book called
Contagious, How to Make ThingsGo Viral.
And it's a great book, but whenyou close the last page and put
the book down, you think word ofmouth is still the best
marketing tool in the world.
So what you have at a festivallike that with an audience is
(32:31):
word of mouth.
They are so important tocontinue to uh keep the life to
keep the film alive with thembecause you never know what you
need more money for.
And they would come to your aid,I believe, financially.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
Stay connected, right?
That's what that is.
That email list and everythingelse is staying connected.
Keep telling the story, not justof your film, but what you're
saying is tell the story of youas a filmmaker, as a storyteller
for future projects.
SPEAKER_02 (33:00):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
You're not just collecting followers, you're
building relationships, right?
SPEAKER_02 (33:05):
Exactly.
This is the new world forfilmmakers.
We you we have to be attached toa filmmaker who, knowing we know
this filmmaker, we know he willbring us or she will bring us
the information we want.
I see that as a future way forfilmmakers.
And I want to see a littleshort, uh, two minutes.
(33:27):
Well, why did you start to makethis film?
And how, how, what is yourconnection to the material?
Because then that reallyconnects us to you personally.
And I see that it's the future.
SPEAKER_00 (33:38):
Absolutely.
You know, it is, it's alsostorytelling, right?
These, you know, you're youknow, you don't want social
media to be advertised.
We're talking about a lot ofthings, but we're talking about
social media.
And, you know, uh, I createdthese behind-the-scenes videos,
and I recommend everybody doingthat, even if you're just
writing a script, document whatyou're doing in a way that can
(34:01):
be told, but not for promotionor marketing for your film.
Uh, you want it to become partof, I think what you're saying
is you want it to be anextension of the filmmaking
experience.
Behind the scenes moments arethey have the potential being
viral.
You'll notice when you look on,I like Instagram, you'll notice
(34:23):
when you go to behind-the-scenescontent of people, you know, on
set, uh preparing for a scene,or those that content has a
higher rate of following andlikes than most things I see on
my feed.
Why is that?
Because we're vicariouslylooking at how things are done.
(34:44):
We're all of us, no matter whatlevel of our career, I'm always
aspiring and curious about howthings are done.
So, yeah, you're building it,you're doing something more than
just advertising, but you'recreating moments that tell who
you are, how you're telling,what your team is doing, and how
you're creating something.
And so when people finally seeyour film, they have kind of a
(35:07):
new uh starting point for howthey see what you've you've
done.
And in this film and in others,right, Carol?
Because that's really what we'retalking about is you know, this
this is not just one umenterprise.
This is uh, you know, you putyour heart, your soul, and all
your money into making a film,but we're filmmakers and we're
talking about the kind of story,the values we have in telling
(35:31):
them and what it was like.
So yeah, that's all you know,translates into word of mouth,
doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (35:40):
Yes, it does.
Um, it's really important.
So that takes to my nextquestion.
How can filmmakers attachinfluential supporters where
like uh executive producers,nonprofit organizations,
experts, all of these peoplethat you need to help you uh
(36:00):
fill up seats in America orGermany or wherever you want,
but how do you think that peoplecan go after influential
supporters?
SPEAKER_00 (36:10):
Well, when you identify who those people might
be, start to ask what is whatintersects with their values and
their mission.
So if you start to say what'snaturally uh what your story and
who you are as a filmmaker andwhat you've made intersects,
connects with their values, whattheir mission is.
(36:31):
That's a good starting placebecause then you're not just
asking someone to endorse yourfilm or watch it.
You have a shared purpose, andthat creates something
authentic, a potentialpartnership, because that's what
you're asking for, right?
You want something that'sauthentic, that starts in a
place that's much just muchstronger than someone you know
(36:52):
reacting to something thatyou've you that you've created
to get them to promote yourfilm.
It's you're asking for someoneto come to uh your your film,
your table, because what you'redoing naturally resonates with
them.
SPEAKER_02 (37:08):
And well said.
Okay, so let's talk about whatdoes a filmmaker need for
self-distribution?
Share with us what you feel arethe most important things to
focus on.
SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
Yeah, I wrote this down because I I think it's
important to be very targetedwith this.
Um, you know, I wrote this downwhen we were getting towards
picture lock, and which, by theway, we talked about picture
lock, picture lock earlier.
That is uh it's it's less of aclear point, right?
(37:42):
Because we remember when picturelock was because you had your
your work print and you lockedit because you were gonna create
uh, you know, uh a print and asound mix from it.
And so we can always open up uhPicture Lock based, which is a
nice thing about festivals, isyou can get a little bit of a
response either from your team,yourself, or from people there
(38:03):
to deep, you know, shape alittle bit more some moments.
But um, you're talking aboutself-distribution and what you
need to do.
Like I think it's always likeI'm always bringing with me
either uh on my phone, right,making notes about what we need
to add to the list of what'srequired to self-distribute or
(38:24):
get it to um you know to get itto a large stage.
Uh, and that changes as you'reas you're having people watch
it.
But I mean, I think the samethings in you know in the 21st
century apply.
You need a website, you need atrailer, you need artwork, you
need a press kit, and as you hadsaid, and I just added to my
(38:47):
list, is you need an email list,email mailing list.
Um, and as you go, we talk aboutcommunity partners, um, you
know, and that that's a growinglist as well.
But you also you need to startthinking about just something
beyond just traditional, what wethink of as distribution,
getting it on streamer.
You know, you have educationaldistribution, thinking about who
(39:08):
the partners are there, uh,thinking about maybe getting it
to um, you know, um potentiallya sales agent.
That's not always uh the casefor every film, but you need to
think about how those differentlevels of outreach, what your
strategy is to get it toinstitutional viewings, like
libraries, NGOs.
(39:29):
And um, you know, really whatyou're doing is back to what we
talked about before is if you'rean independent filmmaker, you're
building things, you're nothaving things come to you.
So being organized, having thatwebsite, trailer, artwork, press
kit, email, mailing list, thatlist of partners, a strategy for
you know, grassrootsdistribution, uh, and uh and a
(39:52):
and a you know strategy forgoing even bigger if you can.
You're building that basicallythat infrastructure that allows
your film to succeed.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
Well, great.
Thank you so much for that.
So, what is your distributionplan for Brace for Oblivion?
Uh, are you planning on uhreaching?
How are you gonna reach all theaudiences and earn revenue?
SPEAKER_00 (40:16):
Yeah, earning revenue.
I know.
Yeah, I should be focused onthat.
Um, and that uh right now,Carol, I gotta be honest with
you.
Right now, I'm my primary focusis the festival rollout.
This is a time to strike becauseyou know, every festival is an
opportunity to introduce thefilm to a new audience.
Start that process we're talkingabout over.
(40:37):
And in doing that, that cutethat experience, that connection
with audiences, creating thatnew audience, you build momentum
and those relationships we talkabout building during the
screening, you strengthen them.
And you know, you also learnfrom that experience.
So, you know, the team that werethat comes to these festivals,
(40:57):
we're all taking notes and we'reseeing what resonates because
this is um word of mouth, thisis a connection, and festivals,
you know, also create discovery,they create an opportunity for
press, they create anopportunity for um, you know,
discovery from an audience.
And you can learn from that.
(41:17):
So this the festival strategy isa part of our distribution
strategy.
Each screening helps expand thereach, potentially new
supporters and advocates, and itopens the doors to people who
could uh help find you knowdistribution opportunities like
(41:38):
not beyond the streamers, um,broadcasters potentially, um,
other uh other ways of you knownot just looking at one platform
to get your film out, but youneed to be disciplined.
And right now we're just we'refocusing on uh thinking about
what that festival distributioncan give to the film as we just
(42:00):
focus on rolling it out from oneterritory to the other.
SPEAKER_02 (42:05):
Well, and the there's a friend of mine who uh
went, she took her film to 50Film Festival.
So I said, Why that is such atrick.
She said, Yes, Carol, but Ifound the market through the
festivals by talking to theaudience afterwards.
Where do you think this filmbelongs?
And so this was a film of BigSophie.
(42:28):
Uh, it was about hergrandmother.
You may remember MauryWarszawsky, who used to help uh
documentary filmmakers.
So this is about his mother whorefused to give up when the
whole uh shopping center closeddown.
She kept her little sewing shopopen and at 80 some odd years
(42:49):
old went to work every day.
So the audiences told her thatuh people in prison loved this.
Because these people it showeddetermination and uh and respect
for their own work, and it andit also taught her to take it to
(43:10):
hospitals where people wererecovering.
They took energy from thiswoman's determination not to be
shut down.
It was her ability to interviewpeople at the festival on where
this film belongs.
And that's an idea you might beable to use.
SPEAKER_00 (43:29):
It sounds like what she did is shaped her
distribution strategy duringthat 50 film Odyssey, is what
was what was working, what waswhat was the path forward.
And it seemed probably, I'm notsure if that's what she
initially intended is is to showit to you say to uh people
incarcerated.
Is that what she said, Carol?
(43:50):
Yeah.
I don't know, maybe that wasclear to her in the beginning,
but I imagine it became, even ifit were, it was crystal clear by
uh somewhere in within thatfestival run.
And yeah, you also get to getbetter at it, you know, you get
to get you get to get better atdefining what your film is, what
its its salient features are,what it's best at.
And um, you know, that's alsogood for you as a filmmaker
(44:14):
because one of the hats wetalked about was, you know,
you're you're kind of anentrepreneur uh as a filmmaker.
And I just wanted to get back toone one important thing.
In 2026, going into 2027, somuch of your audience is gonna
be faced with, I would say, umthe emotional pain of rejection,
of not having the spot for thefilm that you would think is
(44:37):
deserved because of the mathhere.
And the film festivals arelooked at as a gateway for
discovery.
And what I would say is strategyis important, perseverance is
important, but really this is apart of your story.
(44:57):
It's finding a way forward toconnect with your audience.
And if you remember that filmfestivals may feel like a gate
that's hard to surmount, that isuh in front of you, I've I've
heard, you know.
So instead looking at it as thisis just um, you know, film
festivals are partners onceyou're in, but also think about
(45:20):
what the goal is.
You're connecting with anaudience, like you said, you
know, finding a way to connectwith it.
Because, you know, as you toldme when I first met you, is
films have a life of their own.
And you you mentioned that inthe context of making it.
I was about to start shooting ina prison uh in Alabama.
And I remember that when we werein Alabama and midway through
(45:43):
shooting, another um uh jail inMaricopa County started
incarcerating women.
And I started to think, I thinkI called you and I said, Do you
think I should go to MaricopaCounty?
And you said yes.
And I thought, well, I'm fundingthis myself.
I'm in my 20s, I don't have alot of money.
We're back then, we're shootingon film.
Should I take the leap?
(46:04):
And the answer was yes.
This is filmmaking, not filmdistribution, but or film, you
know, or rolling out into a filmfestival.
But it's the same thing thatapplies.
You don't know what's ahead ofyou.
The traditional pathways to getyour film to an audience.
And remember, that's essentiallywhat we're talking about.
We're talking about a festivalexperience uh rollout, is it's
(46:27):
that.
And your film might have a lifeof its own beyond making it and
beyond rolling it out to a filmfestival.
It might also have its moment ina way that you don't understand
later.
Um, so you know, keep your chinup, keep moving forward, and
also just think about what yourstory is, what your story is for
(46:48):
rolling out the film and what'sconnecting with people, because
there is always going to be ahunger for good storytelling.
And you've got something.
And you know, what is it aboutit that differentiates your film
from the other 16,000 that maysubmit to uh Sundance or another
film festival?
SPEAKER_02 (47:06):
So it's all about story, story, story.
SPEAKER_00 (47:09):
Yeah, I think so.
It's also, yeah, and I think wetalked about before it is, and I
think it's also aboutflexibility.
And, you know, we talked aboutlast time when you're making a
film, is you know, step steppinginto a storytelling vortex.
I sort of said, you know, I madethat up is just, but you know,
it's it's seeing what's aroundyou, it's putting yourself in
the middle of it, understandingyou're giving up control, and
(47:32):
you may see something flyingaround in front of you that is
the best, um, maybe part ofsomething that's bigger.
Uh, and you might be uhfrustrated that you're you're on
a path that you're not incontrol of, but that's part of
it.
That's part of making the film,that's part of distributing the
film, it's also part of a way ofconnecting with your audience.
(47:53):
So um understand that disruptionand um chaos, that's part of
storytelling.
SPEAKER_02 (48:02):
Oh my gosh, people need to hear that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:05):
Do we have a choice?
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02 (48:10):
Thank you so much, Zachary, for being with us
today.
And thank you for the tremendouscontribution that you've made to
all of us through your work.
Your life has been dedicated tobringing the truth to the screen
through documentary filmmaking,and you've repeatedly gone where
others might not go, and you'veintroduced us to people whose
(48:32):
courage and humanity deserve tobe recognized.
With American Chain Gang, youexposed an injustice that needed
to be seen and with brace foroblivion.
You've given Ukrainian soldiersand civilians an opportunity to
share their experiences, theirsacrifices, their strength, and
(48:52):
their remarkable solidarity withthe world.
So you've raised theconsciousness of the planet
through your dedicated work.
I know you gave four years ofyour life to this film.
So I you did all of this withoutknowing whether the film would
be accepted, distributed, oreven being seen.
And that is the courage of atrue documentary filmmaker.
(49:16):
And I'm so proud to have knownyou all these years, and I'm
deeply grateful for yourfriendship and for the
extraordinary body of work thatyou've given us.
So we congratulate you onwinning the best international
documentary at the GalwayFestival, and we look forward to
seeing Braceburg Oblivion reachaudiences around the world.
(49:38):
So thank you, Zachary, for yourcourage and compassion and your
lifelong commitment to thetruth.
And to our audience, please joinus next week for more of the art
of film funding.
Thank you, Claire, and thankyou, Zachary.
SPEAKER_00 (49:55):
Thank you so much.
What happens after a picture lock may determine
whether your documentarydisappears or finds its
audience, wins awards, andbegins earning money.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
So glad you could join us on the Art of Film
Funding podcast.
I'm your co-host, Claire Papan,along with writer, producer, and
author, Carol Dean, president ofFrom the Heart Productions.
Today's guest is anextraordinary filmmaker whose
career has been devoted to thestories of courage, survival,
(01:52):
injustice, and the resilience ofthe human spirit.
Zachary Irving is a New Yorkfilmmaker whose films include
American Chain Gang, which wasnominated for Best Documentary
at South by Southwest, thefeature film Nothing Without
You, which screened at the SantaFe Film Festival, and his
(02:16):
powerful Ukraine frontlinedocumentary, Brace for Oblivion.
Brace for Oblivion recently hadits world premiere at the Galway
Film Flaw, where it won the BestInternational Documentary Award.
Remarkably, Galway was the firstfilm festival to which Zachary
(02:39):
submitted the documentary.
And the film was accepted andhonored with this prestigious
award.
For more than 30 years, Zacharyhas produced hundreds of hours
of nonfiction programming forthe New York Times, television,
history, and NationalGeographic.
(03:00):
His career includes fourdocumentaries, an award-winning
feature film, and decades oftelevision production.
For his work on Brace forOlivion, Brace for Oblivion.
Zachary was granted theprestigious PGA mark by the
(03:20):
Producers Guild of America.
He currently serves as co-chairof the Employment Committee of
the Producers Guild of America.
During today's conversation, wewill learn why Zachary dedicated
four years of his life and muchof his personal savings to
(03:41):
documenting the war in Ukraine.
We'll hear what it takes tomarket, find your audience, and
get the film to audiencesthroughout the world.
And Carol, you've known ZacharyIrving since the early 1990s.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:58):
Yes, Claire.
I met him uh when From the Heartpresented its first film grant,
first Roy Dean film grant in NewYork at the National Arts Club.
Um, Zachary had pitched his filmabout the chain gang.
And so I sat down, talked tohim, and we became good friends.
(04:18):
Uh, I believe the American ChainGang film helped bring national
attention to the heinouspractice of chaining
incarcerated men together, evenwhen they were simply working
outside or tending a garden.
They were chained together.
And so his film exposedsomething that the public needed
to see.
And I believe his work helpedbring an end to that terrible
(04:40):
injustice.
So we've been friends over 30years, and throughout his life,
he has shown tremendous courageand an unwavering commitment to
bring the truth to audiencesthrough documentary filmmaking.
And now he's made anotherremarkable and really deeply
important film.
So welcome, Zachary.
SPEAKER_00 (05:01):
Thank you so much, Claire and Carol.
It's so fun to be back with youtalking about independent
filmmaking and the journey uhthat we face once we've locked
picture and are looking to sharethe film for discovery uh within
the festival circuit.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Yes, this is the fun time.
So I want to talk to you aboutum what compelled you to enter
the war because and looking atsome of your short videos, which
I I really appreciate, but youput together a lot of two-minute
videos so we get an idea ofwhat's happening in the
Ukrainian war.
(05:39):
But one of them, there was thishandsome Ukrainian soldier, and
he said, I think you're crazy.
Your country is not at war, andyou can stay home.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
And yeah, you could stay home.
Uh, well, uh, we talked about inprevious discussions about how
the story chooses you.
And I think this was a casewhere I really thought that I
was choosing where I was goingand how this thing would unfold.
I initially entered Ukraine withnot a clear idea of what the
(06:14):
storytelling journey would be.
Uh, initially I was going to befollowing um journalists, war
photographers, some that I knew,some through some I knew through
friends and volunteers, but itturned into something um in a
different path.
It was actually about theUkrainians.
Uh, so you know, I wasn't drawnto the war as much as I was
drawn to this the people andthis incredibly compelling story
(06:41):
of people within days ofRussia's full-scale invasion,
ordinary citizens that weremaking extraordinary decisions,
you know, scientists, if you seethe film, artists, students, uh,
engineers, former soldiers, allvolunteering to defend their
country overnight.
(07:02):
And I think, yeah, sorry, Carol,go ahead, please.
SPEAKER_02 (07:05):
No, I think that's amazing.
The whole country rose togetheras a unit.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
It did.
And over time, you know, thestory is of, you know, uh my
film is a portrait of seven of ahundred thousand that stepped up
to uh shore the gap of aninvasion, and in light of what
the world was saying to them,which was you're gonna be facing
erasure, oblivion, brace for it.
(07:31):
And they took that in the theythat warning, uh, I guess was
not as important as theirvalues.
And that resonated, I think,with most people in the world.
You know, I felt there was animportant story unfolding
beneath the headlines, you know,reading about it, something
(07:52):
about it I just wanted to getcloser to.
And I knew that, you know,Ukraine is not a country at war.
It's it's a it's a place, it's ahome to people.
And I felt like it would be souh much better to tell the story
from, you know, initially myidea was to tell it from people
(08:15):
who were helping by telling thestory as journalists or
photographers or volunteers.
But what we really felt was thething that resonated most with
me was telling the story fromthe inside.
Um, you know, and much of thatexperience is just uh clicked
with me.
And in making the film, youknow, once I understood what the
(08:36):
narrative was going to be, itwas something that followed
through to today, which is yourthe storytelling guides you from
when you're uh formulating whatthe film might be as you're
making it.
You're kind of in this whirlwindof uh storytelling in the middle
of it.
(08:57):
But as you're finding your truenorth of what the story is as
you're working on it, and mostfilms take years, you're also
creating a storyline that willcommunicate to your audience,
your festival audience andbeyond what resonates with you,
what is truly powerful about it.
And that, if you put that first,that's always going to be a good
guiding principle for you as anindependent filmmaker.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
That's good advice.
So let's get into what happensafter picture lock.
So, because many filmmakersbelieve finishing the edit is
the end of the journey, butreally it's the beginning of an
entirely new chapter.
So um what were first pieces?
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
I'd like I'd like the idea to be that I batted a
thousand and the first time Isubmitted, I got into a
festival.
That wasn't the case.
Uh, but I could sort of saythat, you know, the the a big
thing to remember right now isthis is probably um the most
competitive time for independentfilmmakers, particularly when it
(10:01):
comes to finding a place in umin the you know in the community
of uh in the film festival uh uhschedule.
And um, you know, so most peopleuh what I used to think, Carol,
was once you've got picturelock, you're kind of debuting
(10:21):
your film to the world and itkind of unfolds in its own path.
And that passive, semi-passive,you can't be passive when you're
releasing something, but thatidea that cream will rise to the
top, you make the best film youcan, and it'll get recognized.
That's probably was never a goodway to think about it.
And clearly now, with um, youknow, thinking the
(10:43):
responsibility is making thebest film you can and the FS
will find you, build it and itwill come.
It's now uh you should bethinking about it as this is
graduation day, and you know,your film is finished, but your
um your job changes from thatpoint forward completely.
(11:04):
You're not just a filmmaker,you're kind of an entrepreneur,
you're wearing a lot of hats,and those hats can be worn by
people who are part of your teamthat you trust and know.
But those responsibilities shiftfrom filmmaker to strategist,
marketer, publicist, coordinatorfor the festival rollout, and in
(11:27):
my case, community builder.
You're trying to increase,you're trying to be kind of your
own distributor from the momentof picture lock forward.
You know, conversely, like backin the day, right, we would
think that you just have to putit out into the field of for
people to discover it.
(11:47):
There was such an appetite inthe 90s and 2000s for really
great independent content toreach a hungry audience that
wanted to hear and see um newstories.
And now it's a little different.
You have to wear all those hats: strategist, marketer, publicist, (12:01):
undefined
coordinator of festival, andcommunity builder.
Uh, because you've got to um, aswe're going to talk more and
more, and something you'vetalked about on your podcast, is
you need to think about thingsas uh building.
You're building a distributionum uh stream, you're building a
(12:21):
connection with your audience.
It's a lot about building thesedays.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Well, how did you develop your festival strategy?
Because there are thousands offilm festivals.
So how did you decide which oneswere right for your film?
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
Well, that's good.
I I think we probably youraudience will um relate to this.
You know, um, there are like theuh basically there's there's
more slots, there's more umreally great films than there
are slots out there.
In fact, the news was fromSundance last uh time, they have
(12:58):
160 slots.
They had at least 160 slots.
Uh, they're moving to Boulder,maybe they'll have more, I don't
know, and 16,000 entries.
So that's 1% acceptance rate.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
Right.
So, and that's for films thatare, and many of them probably
already have um the theprogramming committee has their
eyes on them for various reasonsfrom earlier on, whether they're
films that were that wentthrough the Sundance Institute
or films that um are going to belooked at, uh probably uh in
higher regard because offilmmakers that have played
(13:32):
there before, you are um you'reyou're looking at you know that
scenario.
So instead of necessarily, anddon't prevent yourself from
taking big swings at bigfestivals, but maybe a shift
from what's the biggestfestival, instead of asking
yourself that, maybe startasking which festival is the
(13:53):
right fit for your film.
Because it's so competitive tobe an independent filmmaker, you
start with that question and youstart thinking about what is the
story of the rollout of yourfilm.
So in doing that, you need toalign what I would think is this
is a relationship.
(14:13):
And what are the festivals thatare out there are best aligned
with what your values of yourfilm are, what your qualities
are, where the salient pointsare, what story uh, you know,
qualities are there that thatrelate to the festival you want
to get into.
And it's not just like, youknow, 1% chance, maybe less than
(14:34):
1% chance with most prestigiousindependent film festival in the
world.
Seems like maybe you're buying alottery ticket, doesn't it?
But instead of right, instead ofthinking about that, think about
your film festival entries as aninvestment.
And do your research, find outwhat the goals of the festival
are, what the ethos is, who theprogrammers are, what they've
(14:57):
played before, and start to seehow your film is a lot aligned
with the potential filmfestivals you're submitting to.
So be strategic basically, in away that's really authentic.
SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
Well done.
All right.
Well, why did you choose Galway?
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
Galway was just a great fit for a lot of reasons.
Number one, it's a festival thatis uh well established.
It's just it was in its 38thyear.
It's uh the most um uh you knowprominent in in Ireland.
And Ireland's a great place tostart for the film because of
its large Ukrainian communityand Ireland's support for
(15:37):
Ukraine.
So it just felt like a reallygood place to um launch the
film.
Also, you know, we talked aboutquality, you know, what being
aligned with the philosophy of aof a film festival.
Well, Galway is though it's it'sum an important festival that
has a lot of attention um fromthe film community, it's also
(15:58):
just very grassroots, it's veryopen.
And, you know, the team that wasthere to represent the film was
very much like that.
I came with um, I was verylucky.
I had James Feeney, the verytalented editor, who came with
us.
Um, we had, yeah, my co-producerRick Santos, uh, who helped
(16:22):
shape the film by watchingseveral cuts and was my only
contact while I was in Ukraine.
Um, LB Kerr Gilman, who was uhhelping coordinate and shape
outreach and helping us uhconnect and publicize the film,
someone I've known for years.
Uh when I went to film school,uh she and I uh became friends
(16:43):
and uh we've worked on eachother's project.
So, you know, I talked about allthese hatchy wear.
It's you know, the place, aplace where you want to
communicate to a film festival,you're gonna bring some value.
Sometimes that value iscommunity.
And the thing about Galway wefound is community is really
valued.
So we were able to, though thethe you know, the staff is very,
(17:05):
very busy, we were able to comeby and check in with them.
And one of the things that we umuh we can talk about this in a
little bit, but you always wantto add value to your screening.
And one of the things that wedid was we were very lucky in um
having one of the survivingsubjects, one of seven, come
(17:27):
from the war zone in Ukraine andget sp permission from his
commander to join us in Ireland.
Oh, and it resonated so wellwith the audiences, with the
festival, and with Ukrainian umcommunity members to have him uh
(17:48):
be there as a part of our notjust to represent the team,
Carol, but to be part of thatteam I mentioned.
We were all there in it togetherto um create this experience for
the film, to represent the film,and to interact with this kind
of open sense of community atGalway.
SPEAKER_02 (18:09):
That's incredible.
Well, tell me how uh did youprepare for the world premiere?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Yeah, so uh, well, it wasn't just buying a plane
ticket and getting that DCPready.
It was preparing not just forthe screening, but it was
preparing an experience.
So I should say that, you know,one of the things you should be
thinking about, your youraudience when you're getting
(18:37):
ready in a festival said yes, isbeyond those preparations of how
you get there and how your filmgets there, is you know, those
those um hats you wear ofpublicist, strategist,
coordinator, you know, buildingthis community, think about
those things and how you can doit.
(18:58):
Uh, two of my good friends uhwho are uh very experienced and
well-respected filmmakers, um,Patrick Farrell and Kato
Callahan, uh have advised methroughout the years.
And one of the things they saidis what's important is you need
to shift the focus from whereyour film, what the festival can
(19:20):
do for you and what you can dofor the festival.
Bums and seats is what they saidin quotes.
Bums and seats.
Get the festival uh, you know,venue filled with um people who
um, you know, you the festivallikes it when you can um promote
the film and create thisexperience.
(19:41):
So part of the experience andpart of this storytelling is
what we would provide is notjust a screening of a film that
we're proud to show the world,but an introduction and a Q ⁇ A
with someone who lives theexperience uh that lives the
experience past the final frameof the film.
(20:02):
And afterwards, we encouraged,and beforehand, we encouraged
people to come and talk with us,and particularly his name is
Bogdan Patel, junior lieutenantBogdan Patel, to talk about what
his experience is, you know,facing um uh the dangers of of a
of a war zone and what it's liketo have grown up.
He was 19 when we began thefilm, he's 23 now.
(20:24):
So what we wanted to do isprepare for an experience.
And that's what I would suggesteverybody to do, you know, as
like Patrick and Kate says,don't ask what your festival can
do for your film, but what yourfilm can do for the festival.
That's a really good guidingprinciple.
Don't take for granted that onceyou've gotten to a film, it's
all gonna sort of launch fromthere.
(20:48):
Be a part, be a partner in aline with that festival that
you've done your research uh tosee that you know this is a good
candidate for you submitting.
Once you're there, go with that.
See what's you have in in uhline with it and bring uh bring
a lot of value to it.
SPEAKER_02 (21:04):
Well, how did you attract press attention?
Okay, that's really important.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Well, it's it's back to the storytelling.
You know, you're you're tellinga story, you're bringing the
value you're bringing issomething that we're we're we're
also trying to bring with thosevideos you mentioned, the the
behind the scenes, the making ofvideos.
We're creating a story of whatthe film is about.
We're collecting um stories frommaking it, but in resonating
(21:32):
that, you are you have anarrative to go to.
So remember, journalists aren'tcovering movies, they're
covering stories.
So you what's your story?
You know, rather than justsetting blasting a press
release, you identify thereporters, the podcasts, the
morning shows, the newspapersthat care about, for in my
(21:54):
instance, in this instance,Ukraine, documentary filmmaking,
um, human rights, internationalaffairs, the process of making a
film.
Um, you know, and and so you'reagain, you're aligning what your
story is with those presspeople, uh with those
journalists, with those uhpodcasters.
And don't be shy.
(22:16):
Reach out to them.
They uh, you know, they theywant to engage with their
audience too.
But I guess what I'm trying tosay is that this whole
storytelling that you're doing,this value that you're bringing,
it starts while you're makingthe film and while you're
identifying what is important uhfor the world to see as you're
(22:39):
developing it.
That carries forward.
And so your story uh you'retrying to attract press
attention with is we have thisstore, this film that's very
important.
It should probably always bethis is the story that's
important to me, and this is whyit might be important to your
audience.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Excellent.
Well, and so how did you buildyour community support?
You went out to the community uhwith your story to get them into
the theater, is that how you?
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
In it exactly, and that's so key.
We were really lucky.
One of the um journalists thatconnected with our our film was
Teresa Mannion, um, uh, an aceuh reporter in uh RTE, and we
had our film covered on thenightly news 6-1.
And um that was part of um notjust reaching out to her, but
(23:35):
right away uh we had help frompeople within the community, uh,
the Embassy of Ukraine inIreland, um, Telegram and
WhatsApp channels, um, localfilmmakers like Kate and Patrick
who could help us identifyconnections to that community,
(23:56):
uh, and invite them to be there.
So everything from uh you know,seeing where things resonate,
one discussion with one personwill open up another discussion
point, which is you know, youmight find um you connect with
somebody on an Instagram thread,uh, you know, do searches for
us, it was Ukrainian communityin Ireland, um, do searches for
(24:20):
other people that are uh youknow posting that have a
community.
And one of the things we did waswe recorded videos, these in the
spirit of the behind-the-scenesvideos, we recorded videos with
the soldiers, Bogdan and thecommander, who could not be
there, but Bogdan could, inUkrainian, saying, Hey, the
(24:41):
film, the film's happening onthis date and this time, July
10th at uh 2.25 p.m.
Uh, um, would love to see you inUkrainian.
I'll be there, or I'd like to bethere, depending on who was
saying it, but speaking theirlanguage and encouraging them
not just to come, but to havethis experience we talk about,
sense of community.
(25:01):
So um it's from a lot ofdifferent directions, and it's
part of your building on thestorytelling.
You know, you're you're creatingnew new content, so to speak,
that's very specific to thecommunity support you're trying
to build.
SPEAKER_02 (25:16):
Well, and then when you screened it, uh, how did you
engage the audience?
Because you uh tell us how youput that all together.
SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
So once you have it as you know, you know, I'm being
very specific to our film andit's related to Ukraine and and
human rights and uh andinternational um, you know, uh
geopolitics, uh, and it butessentially it's it's a story
about human beings and people,and whether you care about any
of that or not, we make a filmthat's about relationships and
(25:46):
about people.
That's an aside from yourquestion, but that's also
guiding us, you know.
So after we created this event,it's starting to be something
more than that.
You're beginning a relationship,you're furthering your
relationship with a festival whois kind enough to provide you a
screen or two for your um yourdiscovery, but that's really
(26:08):
what film festivals provide byand large is discovery.
And it's discovery by the peoplein that room.
So you're creating arelationship.
And I I think about that in theintro and the QA.
This film is for you, and youlet them know that um we're just
that this is something biggerthan just the screening
(26:28):
afterwards.
We had Bogdan there, thefilmmaker.
I'm sorry, I think of him as afilmmaker, the subject of the
film.
And we really use that totransform the discussion.
So he was, you know, we talkedabout, we entertained any
questions about the making ofthe film, but we really want to
transform that into discussionabout what he was experiencing.
Because while he was there for afew days, he was also gonna be
(26:51):
returning to his own journey.
And we wanted to have that besomething unique to that
audience experience of our worldpremiere.
So we talked, we listened, wemet people before the screening.
One of the messages we gave wasif you come a little earlier,
we're all gonna be here and we'dlove to talk to you and then
encourage people afterwards inour Q ⁇ A.
(27:13):
We're gonna be outside, we'realso gonna be, we're in Ireland,
we're gonna get a pintafterwards.
Let's continue this relationshipof filmmaker to audience and
really let's bring that linedown of screen to to um uh
filmgoer to something that is umthat's alive and continues.
SPEAKER_02 (27:34):
Oh, that's brilliant.
Now let's get into after you wonthe award, um, were you able to
use the award to attract morefestivals or press coverage or
screening partners?
SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
Yeah, you know, um, so many times it's easy to get
in this trap of chasing laurelsand awards.
And though it's great to win anaward, and I'm so honored, and I
know everyone else is, um it'suh important to keep in mind as
we're all as we're allfilmmakers and on the same path,
is to remember awards don'tchange your film.
(28:09):
They it seems like they do, butwhat they do is keep in mind
they change the conversationaround your project, around your
film.
So in our case, we have ourworld premiere and we want to
play more places.
We happen to win BestInternational Documentary, and
it was a thrilling experience.
(28:30):
But in getting this award,immediately we started sending a
press release to let people knowof this because we want to have
this experience that we'redescribing happen and be
replicated, to have this um notjust this uh screening, but this
experience and this engagementand this relationship to expand.
(28:54):
So right away um we startedsending out emails, letting us
let letting people know of thenews and also the narrative that
we were there, we engaged withthe community, we had a pretty,
you know, we had a greatturnout, we also had you know
coverage on on television, butwe did that not to promote the
film, we did that to continuethis engagement.
(29:14):
And um, what that did, whatwinning the award changed was
people were returning our emailsquickly, journalists became
curious, and you're gonna findnew opportunities appear.
Um, but you know, the filmstands on its own, the film has
to deliver.
And um, you know, filmmakers, Ijust say invest in the festival
(29:36):
itself.
If you're gonna be engaged,generous with your time, be
supportive, be engaged whileyou're at that festival.
And it's really important tothink about what winning that
award is gonna do, but followthrough with with your
relationships you have with thethe audience that came to your
film, the um the staff, uh theprogrammers, um, the community.
(30:00):
Remember that while you're stillthere because those
relationships can be as valuableas the award.
SPEAKER_02 (30:06):
Well, did you capture the any of the email
addresses of the people whoattended?
SPEAKER_00 (30:12):
That's such an important thing to do, Carol.
And it's something I did not do.
I got names, I got Instagram, Igot contacts in other ways like
WhatsApp and all those things.
But you're right, that emaillist is as important as it was
when we started this, and thenyou know, when I started, at
(30:32):
least in the 90s, is you want tocontinue that journey for the
people who are interested enoughto engage with you where the new
screenings are.
Building that email list isessential.
And that's something I think umI'm gonna make sure we we are
very uh focused on uh for ournext screenings.
SPEAKER_02 (30:52):
Do you remember the old clipboards that Alvin
produced?
A clipboard with a lined papersaying, please keep me informed
about this film and pass that,have people pass it to the
audience while you have theafterboard QA.
That's what I would recommend.
(31:13):
It's so valuable.
SPEAKER_00 (31:15):
Pen, paper, and a clipboard.
You know, that's that's nevergoing to be obsolete.
Let's get these emails going.
And uh yeah, and it, you know,and in the act of doing that,
that that's that's engagement,you know, and that's also you're
thinking about, you know, a lotof what I'm describing is is you
know, continuing this storyline.
Um, but there's uh there reallywhat you're doing is you're
(31:38):
making a film not forjournalists and festivals,
though that's so important.
You're making a film for theaudience, and this is the core
audience, the people that cometo see your festival, your film.
And their word of mouth is asimportant as social media
because they're they had anexperience that you um
participated in with them.
With so having those emailaddresses, yeah, absolutely.
(32:01):
No, Carol, yeah, a paper uh witha nice uh intro, like still
let's stay engaged here.
SPEAKER_02 (32:09):
Uh Zachary, Jonah Berger wrote a book called
Contagious, How to Make ThingsGo Viral.
And it's a great book, but whenyou close the last page and put
the book down, you think word ofmouth is still the best
marketing tool in the world.
So what you have at a festivallike that with an audience is
(32:31):
word of mouth.
They are so important tocontinue to uh keep the life to
keep the film alive with thembecause you never know what you
need more money for.
And they would come to your aid,I believe, financially.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
Stay connected, right?
That's what that is.
That email list and everythingelse is staying connected.
Keep telling the story, not justof your film, but what you're
saying is tell the story of youas a filmmaker, as a storyteller
for future projects.
SPEAKER_02 (33:00):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
You're not just collecting followers, you're
building relationships, right?
SPEAKER_02 (33:05):
Exactly.
This is the new world forfilmmakers.
We you we have to be attached toa filmmaker who, knowing we know
this filmmaker, we know he willbring us or she will bring us
the information we want.
I see that as a future way forfilmmakers.
And I want to see a littleshort, uh, two minutes.
(33:27):
Well, why did you start to makethis film?
And how, how, what is yourconnection to the material?
Because then that reallyconnects us to you personally.
And I see that it's the future.
SPEAKER_00 (33:38):
Absolutely.
You know, it is, it's alsostorytelling, right?
These, you know, you're youknow, you don't want social
media to be advertised.
We're talking about a lot ofthings, but we're talking about
social media.
And, you know, uh, I createdthese behind-the-scenes videos,
and I recommend everybody doingthat, even if you're just
writing a script, document whatyou're doing in a way that can
(34:01):
be told, but not for promotionor marketing for your film.
Uh, you want it to become partof, I think what you're saying
is you want it to be anextension of the filmmaking
experience.
Behind the scenes moments arethey have the potential being
viral.
You'll notice when you look on,I like Instagram, you'll notice
(34:23):
when you go to behind-the-scenescontent of people, you know, on
set, uh preparing for a scene,or those that content has a
higher rate of following andlikes than most things I see on
my feed.
Why is that?
Because we're vicariouslylooking at how things are done.
(34:44):
We're all of us, no matter whatlevel of our career, I'm always
aspiring and curious about howthings are done.
So, yeah, you're building it,you're doing something more than
just advertising, but you'recreating moments that tell who
you are, how you're telling,what your team is doing, and how
you're creating something.
And so when people finally seeyour film, they have kind of a
(35:07):
new uh starting point for howthey see what you've you've
done.
And in this film and in others,right, Carol?
Because that's really what we'retalking about is you know, this
this is not just one umenterprise.
This is uh, you know, you putyour heart, your soul, and all
your money into making a film,but we're filmmakers and we're
talking about the kind of story,the values we have in telling
(35:31):
them and what it was like.
So yeah, that's all you know,translates into word of mouth,
doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (35:40):
Yes, it does.
Um, it's really important.
So that takes to my nextquestion.
How can filmmakers attachinfluential supporters where
like uh executive producers,nonprofit organizations,
experts, all of these peoplethat you need to help you uh
(36:00):
fill up seats in America orGermany or wherever you want,
but how do you think that peoplecan go after influential
supporters?
SPEAKER_00 (36:10):
Well, when you identify who those people might
be, start to ask what is whatintersects with their values and
their mission.
So if you start to say what'snaturally uh what your story and
who you are as a filmmaker andwhat you've made intersects,
connects with their values, whattheir mission is.
(36:31):
That's a good starting placebecause then you're not just
asking someone to endorse yourfilm or watch it.
You have a shared purpose, andthat creates something
authentic, a potentialpartnership, because that's what
you're asking for, right?
You want something that'sauthentic, that starts in a
place that's much just muchstronger than someone you know
(36:52):
reacting to something thatyou've you that you've created
to get them to promote yourfilm.
It's you're asking for someoneto come to uh your your film,
your table, because what you'redoing naturally resonates with
them.
SPEAKER_02 (37:08):
And well said.
Okay, so let's talk about whatdoes a filmmaker need for
self-distribution?
Share with us what you feel arethe most important things to
focus on.
SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
Yeah, I wrote this down because I I think it's
important to be very targetedwith this.
Um, you know, I wrote this downwhen we were getting towards
picture lock, and which, by theway, we talked about picture
lock, picture lock earlier.
That is uh it's it's less of aclear point, right?
(37:42):
Because we remember when picturelock was because you had your
your work print and you lockedit because you were gonna create
uh, you know, uh a print and asound mix from it.
And so we can always open up uhPicture Lock based, which is a
nice thing about festivals, isyou can get a little bit of a
response either from your team,yourself, or from people there
(38:03):
to deep, you know, shape alittle bit more some moments.
But um, you're talking aboutself-distribution and what you
need to do.
Like I think it's always likeI'm always bringing with me
either uh on my phone, right,making notes about what we need
to add to the list of what'srequired to self-distribute or
(38:24):
get it to um you know to get itto a large stage.
Uh, and that changes as you'reas you're having people watch
it.
But I mean, I think the samethings in you know in the 21st
century apply.
You need a website, you need atrailer, you need artwork, you
need a press kit, and as you hadsaid, and I just added to my
(38:47):
list, is you need an email list,email mailing list.
Um, and as you go, we talk aboutcommunity partners, um, you
know, and that that's a growinglist as well.
But you also you need to startthinking about just something
beyond just traditional, what wethink of as distribution,
getting it on streamer.
You know, you have educationaldistribution, thinking about who
(39:08):
the partners are there, uh,thinking about maybe getting it
to um, you know, um potentiallya sales agent.
That's not always uh the casefor every film, but you need to
think about how those differentlevels of outreach, what your
strategy is to get it toinstitutional viewings, like
libraries, NGOs.
(39:29):
And um, you know, really whatyou're doing is back to what we
talked about before is if you'rean independent filmmaker, you're
building things, you're nothaving things come to you.
So being organized, having thatwebsite, trailer, artwork, press
kit, email, mailing list, thatlist of partners, a strategy for
you know, grassrootsdistribution, uh, and uh and a
(39:52):
and a you know strategy forgoing even bigger if you can.
You're building that basicallythat infrastructure that allows
your film to succeed.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
Well, great.
Thank you so much for that.
So, what is your distributionplan for Brace for Oblivion?
Uh, are you planning on uhreaching?
How are you gonna reach all theaudiences and earn revenue?
SPEAKER_00 (40:16):
Yeah, earning revenue.
I know.
Yeah, I should be focused onthat.
Um, and that uh right now,Carol, I gotta be honest with
you.
Right now, I'm my primary focusis the festival rollout.
This is a time to strike becauseyou know, every festival is an
opportunity to introduce thefilm to a new audience.
Start that process we're talkingabout over.
(40:37):
And in doing that, that cutethat experience, that connection
with audiences, creating thatnew audience, you build momentum
and those relationships we talkabout building during the
screening, you strengthen them.
And you know, you also learnfrom that experience.
So, you know, the team that werethat comes to these festivals,
(40:57):
we're all taking notes and we'reseeing what resonates because
this is um word of mouth, thisis a connection, and festivals,
you know, also create discovery,they create an opportunity for
press, they create anopportunity for um, you know,
discovery from an audience.
And you can learn from that.
(41:17):
So this the festival strategy isa part of our distribution
strategy.
Each screening helps expand thereach, potentially new
supporters and advocates, and itopens the doors to people who
could uh help find you knowdistribution opportunities like
(41:38):
not beyond the streamers, um,broadcasters potentially, um,
other uh other ways of you knownot just looking at one platform
to get your film out, but youneed to be disciplined.
And right now we're just we'refocusing on uh thinking about
what that festival distributioncan give to the film as we just
(42:00):
focus on rolling it out from oneterritory to the other.
SPEAKER_02 (42:05):
Well, and the there's a friend of mine who uh
went, she took her film to 50Film Festival.
So I said, Why that is such atrick.
She said, Yes, Carol, but Ifound the market through the
festivals by talking to theaudience afterwards.
Where do you think this filmbelongs?
And so this was a film of BigSophie.
(42:28):
Uh, it was about hergrandmother.
You may remember MauryWarszawsky, who used to help uh
documentary filmmakers.
So this is about his mother whorefused to give up when the
whole uh shopping center closeddown.
She kept her little sewing shopopen and at 80 some odd years
(42:49):
old went to work every day.
So the audiences told her thatuh people in prison loved this.
Because these people it showeddetermination and uh and respect
for their own work, and it andit also taught her to take it to
(43:10):
hospitals where people wererecovering.
They took energy from thiswoman's determination not to be
shut down.
It was her ability to interviewpeople at the festival on where
this film belongs.
And that's an idea you might beable to use.
SPEAKER_00 (43:29):
It sounds like what she did is shaped her
distribution strategy duringthat 50 film Odyssey, is what
was what was working, what waswhat was the path forward.
And it seemed probably, I'm notsure if that's what she
initially intended is is to showit to you say to uh people
incarcerated.
Is that what she said, Carol?
(43:50):
Yeah.
I don't know, maybe that wasclear to her in the beginning,
but I imagine it became, even ifit were, it was crystal clear by
uh somewhere in within thatfestival run.
And yeah, you also get to getbetter at it, you know, you get
to get you get to get better atdefining what your film is, what
its its salient features are,what it's best at.
And um, you know, that's alsogood for you as a filmmaker
(44:14):
because one of the hats wetalked about was, you know,
you're you're kind of anentrepreneur uh as a filmmaker.
And I just wanted to get back toone one important thing.
In 2026, going into 2027, somuch of your audience is gonna
be faced with, I would say, umthe emotional pain of rejection,
of not having the spot for thefilm that you would think is
(44:37):
deserved because of the mathhere.
And the film festivals arelooked at as a gateway for
discovery.
And what I would say is strategyis important, perseverance is
important, but really this is apart of your story.
(44:57):
It's finding a way forward toconnect with your audience.
And if you remember that filmfestivals may feel like a gate
that's hard to surmount, that isuh in front of you, I've I've
heard, you know.
So instead looking at it as thisis just um, you know, film
festivals are partners onceyou're in, but also think about
(45:20):
what the goal is.
You're connecting with anaudience, like you said, you
know, finding a way to connectwith it.
Because, you know, as you toldme when I first met you, is
films have a life of their own.
And you you mentioned that inthe context of making it.
I was about to start shooting ina prison uh in Alabama.
And I remember that when we werein Alabama and midway through
(45:43):
shooting, another um uh jail inMaricopa County started
incarcerating women.
And I started to think, I thinkI called you and I said, Do you
think I should go to MaricopaCounty?
And you said yes.
And I thought, well, I'm fundingthis myself.
I'm in my 20s, I don't have alot of money.
We're back then, we're shootingon film.
Should I take the leap?
(46:04):
And the answer was yes.
This is filmmaking, not filmdistribution, but or film, you
know, or rolling out into a filmfestival.
But it's the same thing thatapplies.
You don't know what's ahead ofyou.
The traditional pathways to getyour film to an audience.
And remember, that's essentiallywhat we're talking about.
We're talking about a festivalexperience uh rollout, is it's
(46:27):
that.
And your film might have a lifeof its own beyond making it and
beyond rolling it out to a filmfestival.
It might also have its moment ina way that you don't understand
later.
Um, so you know, keep your chinup, keep moving forward, and
also just think about what yourstory is, what your story is for
(46:48):
rolling out the film and what'sconnecting with people, because
there is always going to be ahunger for good storytelling.
And you've got something.
And you know, what is it aboutit that differentiates your film
from the other 16,000 that maysubmit to uh Sundance or another
film festival?
SPEAKER_02 (47:06):
So it's all about story, story, story.
SPEAKER_00 (47:09):
Yeah, I think so.
It's also, yeah, and I think wetalked about before it is, and I
think it's also aboutflexibility.
And, you know, we talked aboutlast time when you're making a
film, is you know, step steppinginto a storytelling vortex.
I sort of said, you know, I madethat up is just, but you know,
it's it's seeing what's aroundyou, it's putting yourself in
the middle of it, understandingyou're giving up control, and
(47:32):
you may see something flyingaround in front of you that is
the best, um, maybe part ofsomething that's bigger.
Uh, and you might be uhfrustrated that you're you're on
a path that you're not incontrol of, but that's part of
it.
That's part of making the film,that's part of distributing the
film, it's also part of a way ofconnecting with your audience.
(47:53):
So um understand that disruptionand um chaos, that's part of
storytelling.
SPEAKER_02 (48:02):
Oh my gosh, people need to hear that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:05):
Do we have a choice?
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02 (48:10):
Thank you so much, Zachary, for being with us
today.
And thank you for the tremendouscontribution that you've made to
all of us through your work.
Your life has been dedicated tobringing the truth to the screen
through documentary filmmaking,and you've repeatedly gone where
others might not go, and you'veintroduced us to people whose
(48:32):
courage and humanity deserve tobe recognized.
With American Chain Gang, youexposed an injustice that needed
to be seen and with brace foroblivion.
You've given Ukrainian soldiersand civilians an opportunity to
share their experiences, theirsacrifices, their strength, and
(48:52):
their remarkable solidarity withthe world.
So you've raised theconsciousness of the planet
through your dedicated work.
I know you gave four years ofyour life to this film.
So I you did all of this withoutknowing whether the film would
be accepted, distributed, oreven being seen.
And that is the courage of atrue documentary filmmaker.
(49:16):
And I'm so proud to have knownyou all these years, and I'm
deeply grateful for yourfriendship and for the
extraordinary body of work thatyou've given us.
So we congratulate you onwinning the best international
documentary at the GalwayFestival, and we look forward to
seeing Braceburg Oblivion reachaudiences around the world.
(49:38):
So thank you, Zachary, for yourcourage and compassion and your
lifelong commitment to thetruth.
And to our audience, please joinus next week for more of the art
of film funding.
Thank you, Claire, and thankyou, Zachary.
SPEAKER_00 (49:55):
Thank you so much.
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