December 10, 2025 • 49 mins
Scott Billups is an award-winning cinematographer and visual effects creator who has worked on over fifty motion pictures. As a world leader in the creation of virtual characters for movies and games, Scott went back to school in his forties to study AI as a way to breathe life into his inanimate creations. Armed with an entirely new tool set, Scott was Apple’s first evangelist to Hollywood, co-founder of the AFI Media Lab, CTO of the game industry’s leading supplier of AI (Rival Theory, which became a subsidiary of Google), founder of an AI healthcare company that created the first personified virtual clinician on the IBM Watson health platform, and developer of an AI-robotic eldercare pilot program for the National Institutes of Health. Billups currently resides in Port Hueneme, California.
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SPEAKER_02 (01:15):
What happens when the camera becomes conscious and
your lead actor never existed?
Well, today's guest takes us toInside the Era of Filmmaking,
where AI, virtual humans, andquantum computing are rewriting
the script for storytellers.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
Welcome to the Art of Film Funding, where we give
independent filmmakers thetools, insights, and inspiration
they need to bring their storiesto life.
I'm your co-host Claire Papin,along with Carol Dean, president
of From the Heart Productions, anonprofit dedicated for over 30
(01:58):
years to helping filmmakers fundtheir films, finish their films,
and get them out into the world.
Today's episode takes us intothe future, a future that is
arriving faster than any of usexpected.
What happens when the camerabecomes conscious and your lead
(02:20):
actor never existed?
What happens when the storymoves beyond the screen and into
spatial worlds, virtual humans,and generative intelligence that
can collaborate with yousometimes in ways that feel
almost magical?
(02:40):
Our guest today has not onlywitnessed these shifts, he has
shaped them.
But before we dive in, I want toremind our listeners that From
the Heart Productions, ourmission is to elevate
independent filmmakers.
Through our Roy W.
Dean grant, fiscal sponsorship,and our new membership avenues,
(03:05):
we help creative storytellersfind the funding and support
they need.
No matter what changes arehappening in the industry.
And change is certainly here.
So with that, let's step intothe next era of filmmaking.
An era Scott Bills callspost-cinema.
(03:28):
Scott Bills is an award-winningcinematographer and visual
effects creator who has workedon over 50 motion pictures.
As a world leader in thecreation of virtual characters
for movies and games, Scott wentback to school in his 40s to
study AI as a way to breathelife into his inanimate
(03:54):
creations.
Armed with an entirely new toolset, Scott was Apple's first
evangelist to Hollywood,co-founder of the AFI Media Lab,
CTO of the game industry'sleading supplier of AI, founder
(04:14):
of an AI health care companythat created the first
personalized virtual clinicianon the IBM Watson Health
Platform, and developer of an AIrobotic elder care pilot program
for the National Institutes ofHealth.
Scott currently resides in PortWinemee, California, and is the
(04:39):
author of the new book PostCinema, The Age of AI.
And Carol, I'm turning this overto you now.
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
Okay, Claire, thank you.
And Scott, we're really happy tohave you with us.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Oh, glad to be here, Carol.
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
Well, you've been inside the machine.
You can share a one moment inyour career where you realized
the fashion was shifting fromdigital to what you call
post-cinema.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
Well, uh, yeah.
I guess this happened back inthe early days of digital, but
it might have might as well havebeen yesterday.
Um, I was presenting at theDirectors Guild about how we
resurrected Marilyn Monroe for aGTE Super Bowl commercial.
And midway through mypresentation, the president of
the Screen Actors Guild jumpedto his feet and screamed, Scott
(05:36):
Bills is bastardizing theindustry.
Oh no.
That was the first time Irealized we weren't in Kansas
anymore.
Yeah.
So, and keep in mind, this isdirector's guild.
And Hollywood wasn't justevolving, it was pivoting into
something entirely new, andeverybody knew it.
But here's the kicker (05:56):
we did everything by the book.
Um, you know, state approvals,DGA and SAG contracts, uh, full
crews for scanning, voice work,post-production.
We weren't breaking any rules.
We were actually using them toprove that this technology could
be legitimate.
(06:16):
And that's when it hit me, thatthe human was becoming data, and
the control over that data wasstarting to slip from the hands
of the collective bargainingagreement.
That was the birth ofpost-cinema.
And the moment that the gameisn't just changing, it's never
going back.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
Exactly.
It's not going back, and infact, every week it gets better
and better.
It's shocking what it can do.
So thank you for noticing thisearly on because it's really
important for filmmakers torealize that this is not going
away, and we have to keep upwith changes in our craft, and
(07:00):
that's how we have to look atit.
So, in your brilliant book, PostCinema, uh, The Age of AI, you
talk about AI-generatedcharacters and worlds.
So, how far are we from a filmwhere the majority of the casts
in the crew are artificialintelligences?
And what does that mean forhuman storytellers?
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Well, we're already there.
Uh, you know, walking withdinosaurs, thousands of AI
cognizant CG characters thatstayed out of each other's way
and followed direction.
They were AI actors.
Uh, but more recently, uh, Ijust finished a documentary for
(07:46):
an Oscar-winning producer wherethe sets, the scenes, and even
the interviewees were entirelyAI generated, but they were
based on real people.
Um, and the real people sawtheir Hey Gen doubles and their
11 Labs voice clones and said,hell yeah, let the digital me do
it.
(08:06):
Um, you know, because it was thepersonified version of
themselves, and they knew theycouldn't keep up with it, I
guess.
But you know, it's it's prettyspectacular when you see
yourself um done as uh as anavatar uh that's really
photoreal and able to articulateuh ideas you know better than
(08:31):
you can.
So it's it's um and the the realkicker here is that nobody ever
asked if it was AI.
As long as it feels real and theaudience doesn't care if your
actor is pixels or oxygen.
So a fully synthetic narrativefeature is still maybe a few
years out, but um it's notbecause the tech can't do it.
(08:54):
I mean the tech's flippingcartwheels, but because the
audiences are are really stilltied to flesh and blood actors
and all that messy chaos.
Hollywood runs on talent and andtabloids, so you know you can't
AI still has yet to uh duplicatethat phenomenon.
(09:17):
So what's left for the humanstorytellers uh is evolving.
Uh AI can build the worlds andpopulate the caste, but the
emotional spine, the thing thatpeople actually care about,
still requires a human, and atleast until AI learns how to
have a midlife crisis.
SPEAKER_02 (09:38):
Great.
Can you tell us the name of thatdocumentary?
That's record breaking.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
Uh it's uh hasn't been announced yet, but uh when
it is, we won't mention thatit's AI.
So let's not bring that into theconversation.
Hey, well that's the wholethat's the whole power of uh
behind AI.
It's another tool, and as longas it's not treated as something
(10:06):
other than that, it it shouldn'tbe part of the conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (10:10):
Okay.
Well, um, I've heard of 11 labs,and if you like them, you did
you have a good uh film by using11 labs that you think they're
worthwhile?
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
Oh my goodness, yeah, yeah.
11 Labs are uh by far the leaderin the industry.
Um Adobe had a a really good umvoice cloner, but they were just
too paranoid about thelegalities involved, and it just
took somebody with some uhcojones to get out there and do
(10:47):
it and just let the chips fallwhere they may.
And they've handled the thewhole process so well.
The they've legitimized itreally.
And the quality of their cloneis you know, it's imperceptible.
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
So um what did you do for the a clone?
I mean, you what program did youuse on that?
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Uh well, again, that's you know, uh same issues
with uh, you know, reproducingpeople.
You know, there's there's a lotof people out there with darts
just looking for a target.
Uh and it's a company called HeyGen.
Um, there's a couple companiesthat make lifelike uh avatars uh
(11:33):
or digital doubles.
And uh I my personal favorite isHey Gen.
They're they've been around awhile.
Again, they had the cojones toget out there in front and just
do it and uh you know deal withthe backside.
And surprisingly, uh toeveryone, really, there was no
backside.
(11:53):
There was no, there's so manypeople adapted to this that
there really was no pushback,other than you know,
journalistic or people thatdon't understand what's going
on, or people that just have anattitude or an opinion because
they can.
But for people that are actuallyworking in this industry, you
(12:15):
know, the they they see thevalue of this and uh and look
for the the quality suppliersand hey gen uh double with a 11
labs voice, and you can't tellthe difference anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (12:28):
This is incredible.
Do you spell that h-a-g-en?
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Uh it's h uh h-e-y capital G-E-N.
SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
And uh keep in mind that there's a lot of there's uh
a lot of companies doing this,but uh, you know, they're not
cheap when you get into theprofessional end of it, but it's
uh it's definitely worth it.
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
I think that that's brilliant.
Um thank you so much for that.
Um I'm in shock.
I can't wait to see the firstdocumentary.
Um so you I hope you know it'snot the first.
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
We've been doing it for a while, you know.
And the the thing that really uhbrings it home for me is you
know, back in 1989, I I uh uhtook Marlon Brando up to
Monterey and scanned him intothis uh cyberware computer.
Now, this is the same systemthat uh Jim Cameron used.
(13:33):
In fact, that's how I found outabout it.
Uh Jim Cameron used to scan theface of Marianne Mestri Antonio
for the abyss that for thatwater pseudopod thing.
Yes.
And then and then um I didMarlin uh uh and create a
photoreal human.
Um, and then he came back anddid uh Terminator, and you know,
(13:55):
next thing you know, scanninghumans and creating, you know,
that was the pipeline.
Uh and uh so I just followed hispipeline.
And but we've been makingphotoreal humans for years.
It just took a lot more moneyand time and effort.
It took two years to get thatmarlin so that it was working
(14:16):
good.
And by that time, the theproducers didn't want to know
anything about it, you know,they were all pissed off, excuse
me, my language.
They were all uh mad at the uhtime it took.
And we were surprised at thetime it took.
And by the time we got to makingto resurrecting uh Maryland,
(14:36):
well, that took um months.
So we went in about five yearsfrom years to get something done
to months to get something done,and now it's instant.
So that's the curve.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
Oh wow, that's the curve.
So we're really full all in now.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
That's it, it's all over.
SPEAKER_02 (15:03):
Okay, so for an independent filmmaker with a
limited budget, what are two orthree AI tools that you would
recommend for them to learnright now to stay competitive?
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Uh well, here again, things are changing.
And the power, the real power ofgenerative AI isn't a single
tool.
It's in the aggregators, thesecompanies that stitch a dozen
apps into one seamless workflow.
So um, you know, something thatmight have like, well, for
(15:39):
instance, uh uh they have aphoto generator um that gives
you sets and backgrounds.
They have maybe uh uh uh youknow generative uh CG program
that gives you uh houses and 3Dbuildings that uh virtual actors
(16:00):
can interact with.
It might have uh something likeSora that uh does video.
Um, you know, and can combineyou can give it one frame uh two
frames, uh you know, a startframe and an end frame, and
it'll actually build the scenein between.
Um and then you have like uhvoice cloning, so you'd have 11
(16:23):
labs in there, and you know, foryour characters, you'd use
Hajen.
So you can see how manydifferent applications you can
build into that pipeline.
And if you're paying thesubscription fees, professional
subsist subscription fees on 20different programs, that's gonna
be a couple thousand dollars amonth.
(16:44):
Easy, right?
Yes, if you and plus you've gotto manage all that in if you're
using them individually, butthese aggregators, um uh I use a
company called Artlist.
I don't mean to plug them, butthat just better if I don't,
because then people won't, youknow, crowd the pipeline.
But um, you know, there's a lotof them out there.
(17:07):
Artlist is one, and they have ohmore than a dozen, I think about
20 different leading generativeuh uh they just got banana,
which is fantastic.
Um but uh you know, so now youjust you just have one bill at
the end of each month, and it'sa lot more manageable uh by at
(17:30):
least the decimal place.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
Okay, so you go to ArtLift and then you put
together uh you uh the programsyou want, like 11 labs and
whatever else, and then you payone person and they give you
everything?
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
Yeah, well, you don't even have to put it
together, just they've goteverything, they've built a uh
uh uh user interface, a GUI,that actually incorporates all
the different applications.
So uh you don't even have toknow anything about uh AI
generative art to uh use an art,it's called art list.
(18:10):
Uh and you really don't have toyou know know anything other
than how to type.
Just install a command line.
SPEAKER_02 (18:21):
Oh, how wonderful.
Filmmakers, thank you so much.
Okay, so now the next questionis uh teachers, how do you learn
to prompt a computer?
Because I use like chat GPT andI'll get something, then my uh
my marketing manager will putthe same thing in chat GPT and
(18:44):
get something better.
So obviously he's better atprompting.
SPEAKER_00 (18:50):
Yeah, well, prompting is the ticket.
I mean, that prompting is a newlanguage, it's just like
learning German or Japanese,it's a new language, and you
have to learn how to um get tothe ground truth of what it is
you want.
Uh you're talking to a machine,so it really doesn't have uh an
(19:13):
emotional uh spine to thediscussion, it has uh limits and
blocks and structure, and uh youneed to just learn what the
elements of that language are,and so there's a lot of ways you
can learn it.
Uh hunt and miss, hit and missis one, you know, just sit down
(19:34):
and do it is another.
Uh there's dozens of online uhclasses.
MIT has a full spectrum ofclasses in their edX program,
that's small e, small d, big X.
Um the Microsoft series is youknow very popular, uh free.
(19:56):
Um so um more than that, uhGemini 3.0 now has vibe coding.
So uh vibe coding is just uh itactually does this uh computer
scripting as well.
You just say what you wantsomething to do.
So uh for a screenwriter,obviously uh the game industry
(20:19):
is is the major influence now inin media um because of the
interactivity and so forth.
And so to get a result in to tomake a a script relevant to a
future where spatial media andbespoke entertainment and you
(20:40):
know uh use user authorship isis trending.
Um you have to code a bit, andthis vibe coding from Gemini 3
just gets it all into a promptuh structure.
(21:00):
So it's uh again not uh obscureat all.
It's just straightforward codingum and adaptable to the person
that's actually uh doing theprompting, regardless of their
uh you know, ability to dealwith computers and their
(21:22):
computer mass and knowledge.
So uh it's it's just uh sit downand do it.
There's just no better way tosay it.
This is nothing secret to it atall.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
So it's become more uh friendly, more
human-friendly, and it's not asfrightening, I guess.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
You can put it very well.
It's AI doing what AI issupposed to do.
AI is supposed to make it easyto deal with.
If AI isn't easy to deal with,it's not good AI.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Wow, that's a great statement, okay.
I'll remember that.
You have a fabulous book.
Um, in uh you discuss the chainof production being overturned
by algorithms.
So, what does this mean for filmfunding and distribution
(22:19):
strategies?
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Well, algorithms are tearing the chain of production
apart.
So, you know, suddenly uh indiefilmmakers aren't begging at
studio gates, they're pitchingto niche audiences.
Um niche audiences are you knowshowing up everywhere,
crowdfunding brands andalliances that didn't exist 10
years ago.
The best part is that uhproduction crop costs are
(22:44):
dropping so fast, like this uhuh documentary just did.
I mean, seriously, we could havedone this on the free version of
most of these uh apps that weused.
Um it's you know, the the pricesare dropping so fast that uh
(23:04):
self funding is becoming the newblack.
You know, it's you know, forgetthe old gatekeepers, algorithms
can.
Your film in front of the exactpeople who'll care about you
know what your content is.
So basically the little guy canplay the big uh game if they
know the the cheat codes.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
Okay, now that's really important for independent
filmmakers that algorithms canput in it in front of you your
audience.
Tell us how they would be ableto find an audience.
Let's say you had a film abouthorses.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
Sure.
Okay, so you sit down at ChatGPT and say, I got a film about
horses.
You just type that.
And it goes, that's nice.
Where's my market?
And it's going to give you, it'sgoing to tell you where your
market is.
It's going to tell you whereyour market is better than any
advertising agency or marketingagency on Wall Street.
(24:03):
Period.
That's it.
That's who your market is.
So now you say, This is nice.
How do I address them?
That's your prompt.
That's all you need to do.
Boom.
And it'll give you anotherprintout of things you can do,
you know, best practices.
And that's what you knowgenerative AI is heading
(24:27):
towards.
It it gets easier to use everyday.
And so if you're having aproblem with interfacing with
AI, it's because you're usingold AI.
Just, you know, you got toupgrade it every you know, once
a week.
If you're not upgrading once aweek, you're using old AI.
Um, because it's moving so fast.
(24:49):
I mean, this is it's obviouslyit's you know, it's gonna take
over the world.
Uh, because you know, last timewe had a chance to even think
about controlling it was back in2016.
Uh and now, you know, differentcompanies, they have they have
to just everybody's got theirfoot on the accelerator because
(25:10):
nobody can slow down.
I mean, you know, Google can'tslow down because Microsoft
won't, and Microsoft can't slowdown because Anthropic can't
won't slow down, and you know,nobody's gonna slow down because
China's just you know, got theturbochargers on.
SPEAKER_02 (25:29):
Yes, yes, China really is into that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Oh, I just got back from there.
Just it's crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Oh, tell us, tell us.
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
Um well, the uh first of all, you get you've got
a lot more government support.
Although we are getting intothat.
Uh, you know, it's the only waythat you know we can keep it up.
Um and uh the government supportis is huge on this.
(25:58):
They have their robots are youknow everywhere, but they've
been doing this for a long timenow.
They're they've had a a longhistory of of robot develop
robotic development.
Um, and it's just now that youknow the anthropomorphic robots
are really taking the lead.
That's the human-shaped robots.
(26:20):
And it it makes a lot of sensebecause when you're in a factory
environment, you know, does therobot shape, the the form factor
of the robot really doesn'tmatter so much because it's a
factory and it just does whatyou know, it's shaped like what
it does.
Um, but in uh human accessiblerobots, uh you know, service
(26:43):
robots and and so forth, um,they need to be anthropomorphic
because they need to work in aworld designed for humans.
And we have a shape thateverything from you know, cars
to doorways to stairs to youknow, cutlery, kitchen cutlery.
I mean, everything is designedfor humans and our appendages.
(27:05):
So for a robot to be efficient,it needs to be, it needs to echo
that design metaphor.
Does that make sense?
Yes, right.
There you go.
That's it.
So anybody that doesn't get whythey're making robots to look
like humans, that's why.
Because it's foolish not to.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
I read about a man who worked for Google, and and
he said on his way to his officeevery day, he walked by a uh
window where there was a roomand they were trying to teach
robots.
How to pick up a yellow ball.
That was the game.
And so this went on for twoyears, and the day that the
(27:50):
robot picked up the yellow ball,he was in shock.
And he said that did it for him.
He got out of business becausehe said, this is going to take
over everything.
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
Yep.
Well, yeah, yeah, I'm not a hugeAI robot fan.
So I mean, we um I was the CTOof a uh uh uh AI company that
created uh AI cognizance modulesfor the game industry.
So that that allows you to talkwith your characters and allow
(28:29):
uh it helps the characters talkwith you and be interested in
what you're doing and you knowtell you when to duck in
first-person shooters and uh youknow which car to steal and
Grand Theft Auto and you know,da-da-da-da.
So um this uh company Softbank,who's a little company, no,
(28:52):
they're a huge company actually,but um they don't really get a
lot of press, but they'reprobably the biggest robot
manufacturer in the worldbecause they own Boston Dynamics
and they they own a lot of thethe pipeline that creates robots
and um robotics, and uh they hadthis little robot.
(29:12):
We're going back uh you know adecade almost, and they had this
little robot called the pepper,and it was the most fantastic
little robot.
You just fell fell in love withthis thing, it was it had full
physiological uh matchinghumanoid physiology above the
waist, and then it was on theselittle rollers, which was a
great combination.
(29:32):
So um when you become bipedal,that's a whole level of
difficulty.
But uh, you know, if somethingcan be uh wheel-based or you
know uh tread-based, uh, it'sit's much easier just to
concentrate on the uh theinteraction and the technology
rather than the logistics ofmechanical bipedalism.
(29:56):
Um but um this little robot,this uh pepper robot, uh they
sent sent us one of these thingsto upgrade the cognizance.
They we had a Sentio cognizanceengine that was a universal uh
brain cognizance that can bestuck into just about any game
(30:18):
engine-based um environment.
And so uh Softbank asked us toupgrade their pepper robot with
our cognizance engine, and whenwe did, it turned into a person.
That's it.
It's you know, no caveatsneeded, and uh, you know, it
(30:39):
carried on conversations like aperson, and so we uh we
prototyped this uh uh eldercare, robotic elder care program
uh for uh National Institutes ofHealth.
And it's just um you know thetechnology moves really fast,
(31:00):
and um there's uh the medicalmachine out there that didn't
quite see eye to eye with thatkind of thing.
So uh but we have a big we havea big problem coming up, you
know, this the silver tsunami,you know, there's more old
people every day, and there'sfewer people to take care of
(31:21):
them every day.
So, you know, that's that's acrisis, and robots are the only
solution for that.
Um and uh there's a lot ofpending crises that robots are
the solution to.
So it's not whether people likethem or don't like them, they're
they're they're coming, whetheryou like them or not.
(31:43):
And they uh they are anotherbreed of human, they're of
people, I should say, and uhyeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:54):
Thank you.
My gosh, you know so much, andthey are like us will love you
for sharing all thisinformation.
But um, let me go back to myquestions about like virtual
actors and digital people.
So, how do you see rightsownership and compensation
(32:15):
evolving when your league actormight be a generative model, not
a beat model?
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
Yeah, yeah, I've been dealing with this for
years.
Marlin, uh Maryland, the wholething.
The solution is simple.
You sit down with an agent or anestate lawyer and you strike a
professional agreement.
That's it.
There's no magic, no secretsauce.
It's just professionals doingwhat professionals do.
(32:43):
Now you got unions and guilds,and everybody's got, you know,
gets up in arms because nobodyreally understands this outside
of people that are doing it.
So if you're an executive ofsome guild or some uh company
that's you know crossedinterests, you you're you know,
(33:04):
you got to rant about it, butthat's about it.
There's no secret sauce.
Um, just professionals doingwhat professionals do.
Everything else is hot air.
So there's really no math ormystery to it.
Um, compensation is you know,pretty straightforward.
It's just business.
And case in point, last month,Matthew McConaughey and Michael
(33:26):
Cain both signed deals with 11labs to clone their voices.
There you go.
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Yes, I saw that.
So wait, what does that mean toall of us?
SPEAKER_00 (33:39):
That's how it works.
There's no they're coming, it'sbusiness as usual.
Uh, there's many more peoplethat have are doing that.
Uh likenesses are the samething.
Uh to I just sat in on the theuh I was asked to sit in on the
(33:59):
the the dealing uh for uh threecelebrities that are having
themselves cloned that will beavailable for uh use in your
movie um or a commercial orwhatever you want.
And uh, you know, the clones aredamn good, they're just really,
(34:21):
really good.
Um and because you know, ifokay, let's say you're an actor,
uh okay, you're never gonna lookbetter than you look today.
So today is a good day to get aclone made.
Period.
I mean, that's just logic.
And and even if you don't marketit now, put it in a shelf, put
(34:45):
it in a hard drive, and uh, youknow, because everybody's gonna
be doing it pretty soon, andagain, you're never gonna look
better than you look today.
So the logic is just so solidthat you can't argue it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:00):
Yes.
Well, let me go back to MatthewMcConaughey.
Could you go to 11 labs and buyhis voice to go in a
documentary, for example?
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
Hold on just a second.
I'm at my computer.
I'm just gonna go to 11 labs andsee if we can get it.
Um bear with me.
There we go.
There's 11 labs.
Um let me see.
Voices.
Hey, okay, you ready for this?
(35:34):
What?
License.
Oh, there he is.
Okay, so wow.
They're gonna be doing doing abunch of them.
Um and let me see.
So they've got quite oh, herethey just got Dorothy from
Wizard of Oz.
Oh my god.
(35:55):
Oh, you should see.
Uh just go to 11labs.
It's 11labs.io.
And uh so anybody listening,there you go.
And right at the top, there'sMichael Cain, and there's oh
wow, that looks like uh.
(36:17):
Oh yeah, they've got a lot ofpeople.
So Alan Turing, Lana Turner, ohmy goodness.
So I think that Betty Page, ourAmelia Air Fork.
Let's see what he sounds like.
(36:39):
Did you get that?
No, do it again.
Uh let me see.
I'm trying to figure out how wecan get this.
Oh, Maya Angelou.
Oh, I bet that's a great voice.
Hold on.
Yes.
Oh, they nailed her.
Oh my goodness.
Uh John Wayne.
(37:00):
That's just cracking me up.
Okay, so oh, Lisa Minnelli, I'msorry.
Wow.
Uh, I'm sorry, it's not for somereason, it's not making it
through to uh our pipeline here.
So, but it's 11labs.io.
Uh, and just um go to voices,and uh you have uh their
(37:25):
standard voices, you can cloneyour own voice, um, and then you
have your own voice catalogs,and then it'll have this uh new
legendary voices uh catalog?
So there you go.
I think that answers that.
SPEAKER_02 (37:40):
Wow, thank you.
That's a lot of information.
Great.
Well, in your book, Post Cinema,The Age of AI, you mentioned
quantum AI, spatial computing,and brain computer interfaces in
the book.
So, which of these technologiesdo you believe will impact film
(38:01):
production first and why?
Ooh.
SPEAKER_00 (38:07):
Uh, well, of the three, brain computer interfaces
are already landing the firstpunches.
So um it's not when, it'salready happening.
Um, and then you've got on themarket, you've got uh things
like well, meta uh the metawristband um is reading your
nerve impulses and steering yourAR glasses like a psychic TV
(38:28):
remote.
So that's you know alreadythere.
But you know, the truth is oncequantum computing enters the
mix, everything we're doingtoday is going to look like
we're banging rocks together.
So it's it's already happening.
SPEAKER_02 (38:45):
Gosh, how amazing.
Okay.
Uh the next question is that ifthe filmmakers ignore the
implication of postcinema andcontinue to work in the old
system, what risk are theyrunning?
SPEAKER_00 (39:04):
Um, well, you know, it's it's always going to be
there, it's not going anywhere.
Um, so the risk is what I callthe reverse hockey stick of
relevance.
Uh technology rarely replacesanything, it just keeps adding
options.
So uh, you know, people stillride horses, but they don't win
(39:24):
the race.
Uh so if you stay in the oldsystem, you're basically showing
up at the Indy 500 on a pony.
Um filmmaking is still gonna bearound, it's gonna be a niche.
People still using shootingblack and white.
Um you know, retro filmmaking isis a niche, and this is you
(39:47):
know, so now modern filmmakingis gonna become another niche.
SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
It's another niche, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:53):
It's not gonna be called modern filmmaking, it'll
be called, you know, digitalfilmmaking, maybe, or something.
I don't know.
Maybe they'll be come up with acute word for it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:04):
Okay.
Well, uh, let me ask you, whatdo you think is the opposite
side for those?
Um, because on the flip side,what new opportunities are
emerging for storytellers whoembrace post-cinema?
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
Yeah, this is the big one.
It's well, so Hollywood spent 25years fighting AI.
You know, the game industry hasspent the same 25 years
developing it.
So who do you think is gonnawin?
SPEAKER_02 (40:34):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (40:35):
Right?
So, yeah, I mean, we got spatialmedia, bespoke entertainment.
There's a lot of stuff comingdown the line.
It just doesn't fit intoHollywood metaphor.
So here's the real shift forstorytellers.
That's screen script writingitself is changing.
You know, interactivity, spatialmedia, bespoke entertainment,
(40:56):
and they all just demand scriptsthat move more like prompts.
And prompts are ruthless.
As I said before, they you know,they force you to articulate the
ground truth of your vision.
And ground truth is, you know,if that's not in your
vocabulary, that's a computer,uh, AI computer word.
(41:18):
And ground truth is the mostimportant word to learn in AI
because that's what it's basedon.
Um, and when you're forced toarticulate that, uh, you know,
it's a direct line between humanintention and uh machine
interpretation, and it stripsaway all the comforting patinas
(41:42):
of pretext.
So bad prompt, bad result,garbage in, garbage out.
So AI might hand you somethinggorgeous to look at, or words
that sound poetic, but once themachine is done showing off, you
know, what's left as the gamepipeline uh becomes the new
(42:03):
engine of production, everythingthat comes back to that, the
prompt and the agency behind it.
So, you know, it's it's it's notparticipation, it's authorship
that's really going to be um themain concern here.
SPEAKER_02 (42:19):
Authorship, okay.
Well, finally, if you could takeuh leave one takeaway for
filmmakers uh on how to positionthemselves for success in the
age of AI, what would that be?
SPEAKER_00 (42:41):
Um well they need to learn the uh the new lingo.
That would that would be umtrying to think what a good
example of that.
(43:01):
So it's the shift in in scriptwriting.
It's I mean it really startswith the ship the shift in
screenwriting, I would say.
Um and then it's also investorsneed to stop asking how much AI
does it use and start askingwhose hands it's in.
Uh because if a project looks orfeels like CG, you're not
(43:24):
dealing with a visionary, you'redealing with a a hobbyist.
Uh and so there's this old rulein cinema that um that uh uh the
illusion only works when youforget it's there.
SPEAKER_02 (43:43):
Oh my gosh, that's so true.
SPEAKER_00 (43:46):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, back theLumiere brothers terrified an
audience when a uh with you knowthey projected on a wall this
train pulling into the stationand people jumped up and ran out
of the theater.
SPEAKER_02 (44:00):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
It hasn't changed since then.
That's that's all that's allyou're doing.
And so if you can't do that withAI, yeah it can't be done.
So um that would be uh probablyjust stay focused on that.
SPEAKER_02 (44:23):
Um that, yes.
Because it is illusion, so youryour audio has to be perfect,
your visuals are perfect.
You you just have to maintain uhyour skills from normal
filmmaking and learn AI toimprove them.
Look at AI as an improvement.
SPEAKER_00 (44:45):
Yeah, and so as you know, since it all starts with
the script, yes this thescreenwriter needs to embrace a
new a new grammar.
Uh wide shot isn't just anestablishment, it's it's an
invitation to explore, right?
(45:08):
Spatial media, okay, and framingisn't where the director.
Points to the camera anymore.
It's it's where the viewerchooses to look.
But perhaps most importantly,story beats aren't fixed moments
on a timeline.
They're events that wait for youto arrive.
SPEAKER_02 (45:28):
Oh yes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:30):
Can you feel that shift?
So it yeah, so in this newgrammar, characters stop
performing for you and startreacting to you.
A close-up is an emotion, it'sthe story looking back at you.
And this the shift inunderstanding and meaning.
(45:51):
Uh you know, if you get it,you're not ahead of the curb,
you're you're actually shapingthe new one.
SPEAKER_02 (45:59):
Wow, how brilliant, Scott.
Thank you.
This has been an incredibleamount of information for
independent filmmakers.
Thank you for sharing all this,and thank you for writing this
incredible book.
Because they're going to learnthe language of AI by reading
(46:22):
your book, Scott.
SPEAKER_00 (46:24):
Um, yeah, yeah, so that's kind of what it's about.
SPEAKER_02 (46:29):
Well, thank you very much for taking us behind the
curtain of post-inema.
I really recommend your book toall of our listeners.
I found it to be incrediblysimple to understand and full of
great ideas.
So your vision helps usunderstand not just where
filmmaking is going, but how wecreators can step forward with
(46:53):
courage, curiosity, and a senseof possibility.
That's the key.
So, if to our listeners today,if you enjoy this conversation,
uh, please check out From theHeart Productions online because
we're here to champion yourvoice and support your journey.
(47:14):
So, whether you're developingyour first script or creative,
immersive, AI-driven worlds, orfinishing a documentary with an
urgent message, our Roy DeanFilm Grants, the fiscal
sponsorship, the film fundingclasses, and the filmmaker
community are all designed toempower you.
(47:34):
And we believe that film changeslives and filmmakers change the
world.
So you can learn more about ourgrants and sponsorships at
FromTheHeartProductions.com.
Thank you for joining us.
Keep creating, keep innovating,and above all, keep believing in
(47:56):
your vision.
And we'll see you next time onthe Art of Film Funding.
What happens when the camera becomes conscious and
your lead actor never existed?
Well, today's guest takes us toInside the Era of Filmmaking,
where AI, virtual humans, andquantum computing are rewriting
the script for storytellers.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
Welcome to the Art of Film Funding, where we give
independent filmmakers thetools, insights, and inspiration
they need to bring their storiesto life.
I'm your co-host Claire Papin,along with Carol Dean, president
of From the Heart Productions, anonprofit dedicated for over 30
(01:58):
years to helping filmmakers fundtheir films, finish their films,
and get them out into the world.
Today's episode takes us intothe future, a future that is
arriving faster than any of usexpected.
What happens when the camerabecomes conscious and your lead
(02:20):
actor never existed?
What happens when the storymoves beyond the screen and into
spatial worlds, virtual humans,and generative intelligence that
can collaborate with yousometimes in ways that feel
almost magical?
(02:40):
Our guest today has not onlywitnessed these shifts, he has
shaped them.
But before we dive in, I want toremind our listeners that From
the Heart Productions, ourmission is to elevate
independent filmmakers.
Through our Roy W.
Dean grant, fiscal sponsorship,and our new membership avenues,
(03:05):
we help creative storytellersfind the funding and support
they need.
No matter what changes arehappening in the industry.
And change is certainly here.
So with that, let's step intothe next era of filmmaking.
An era Scott Bills callspost-cinema.
(03:28):
Scott Bills is an award-winningcinematographer and visual
effects creator who has workedon over 50 motion pictures.
As a world leader in thecreation of virtual characters
for movies and games, Scott wentback to school in his 40s to
study AI as a way to breathelife into his inanimate
(03:54):
creations.
Armed with an entirely new toolset, Scott was Apple's first
evangelist to Hollywood,co-founder of the AFI Media Lab,
CTO of the game industry'sleading supplier of AI, founder
(04:14):
of an AI health care companythat created the first
personalized virtual clinicianon the IBM Watson Health
Platform, and developer of an AIrobotic elder care pilot program
for the National Institutes ofHealth.
Scott currently resides in PortWinemee, California, and is the
(04:39):
author of the new book PostCinema, The Age of AI.
And Carol, I'm turning this overto you now.
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
Okay, Claire, thank you.
And Scott, we're really happy tohave you with us.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Oh, glad to be here, Carol.
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
Well, you've been inside the machine.
You can share a one moment inyour career where you realized
the fashion was shifting fromdigital to what you call
post-cinema.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
Well, uh, yeah.
I guess this happened back inthe early days of digital, but
it might have might as well havebeen yesterday.
Um, I was presenting at theDirectors Guild about how we
resurrected Marilyn Monroe for aGTE Super Bowl commercial.
And midway through mypresentation, the president of
the Screen Actors Guild jumpedto his feet and screamed, Scott
(05:36):
Bills is bastardizing theindustry.
Oh no.
That was the first time Irealized we weren't in Kansas
anymore.
Yeah.
So, and keep in mind, this isdirector's guild.
And Hollywood wasn't justevolving, it was pivoting into
something entirely new, andeverybody knew it.
But here's the kicker (05:56):
we did everything by the book.
Um, you know, state approvals,DGA and SAG contracts, uh, full
crews for scanning, voice work,post-production.
We weren't breaking any rules.
We were actually using them toprove that this technology could
be legitimate.
(06:16):
And that's when it hit me, thatthe human was becoming data, and
the control over that data wasstarting to slip from the hands
of the collective bargainingagreement.
That was the birth ofpost-cinema.
And the moment that the gameisn't just changing, it's never
going back.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
Exactly.
It's not going back, and infact, every week it gets better
and better.
It's shocking what it can do.
So thank you for noticing thisearly on because it's really
important for filmmakers torealize that this is not going
away, and we have to keep upwith changes in our craft, and
(07:00):
that's how we have to look atit.
So, in your brilliant book, PostCinema, uh, The Age of AI, you
talk about AI-generatedcharacters and worlds.
So, how far are we from a filmwhere the majority of the casts
in the crew are artificialintelligences?
And what does that mean forhuman storytellers?
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Well, we're already there.
Uh, you know, walking withdinosaurs, thousands of AI
cognizant CG characters thatstayed out of each other's way
and followed direction.
They were AI actors.
Uh, but more recently, uh, Ijust finished a documentary for
(07:46):
an Oscar-winning producer wherethe sets, the scenes, and even
the interviewees were entirelyAI generated, but they were
based on real people.
Um, and the real people sawtheir Hey Gen doubles and their
11 Labs voice clones and said,hell yeah, let the digital me do
it.
(08:06):
Um, you know, because it was thepersonified version of
themselves, and they knew theycouldn't keep up with it, I
guess.
But you know, it's it's prettyspectacular when you see
yourself um done as uh as anavatar uh that's really
photoreal and able to articulateuh ideas you know better than
(08:31):
you can.
So it's it's um and the the realkicker here is that nobody ever
asked if it was AI.
As long as it feels real and theaudience doesn't care if your
actor is pixels or oxygen.
So a fully synthetic narrativefeature is still maybe a few
years out, but um it's notbecause the tech can't do it.
(08:54):
I mean the tech's flippingcartwheels, but because the
audiences are are really stilltied to flesh and blood actors
and all that messy chaos.
Hollywood runs on talent and andtabloids, so you know you can't
AI still has yet to uh duplicatethat phenomenon.
(09:17):
So what's left for the humanstorytellers uh is evolving.
Uh AI can build the worlds andpopulate the caste, but the
emotional spine, the thing thatpeople actually care about,
still requires a human, and atleast until AI learns how to
have a midlife crisis.
SPEAKER_02 (09:38):
Great.
Can you tell us the name of thatdocumentary?
That's record breaking.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
Uh it's uh hasn't been announced yet, but uh when
it is, we won't mention thatit's AI.
So let's not bring that into theconversation.
Hey, well that's the wholethat's the whole power of uh
behind AI.
It's another tool, and as longas it's not treated as something
(10:06):
other than that, it it shouldn'tbe part of the conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (10:10):
Okay.
Well, um, I've heard of 11 labs,and if you like them, you did
you have a good uh film by using11 labs that you think they're
worthwhile?
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
Oh my goodness, yeah, yeah.
11 Labs are uh by far the leaderin the industry.
Um Adobe had a a really good umvoice cloner, but they were just
too paranoid about thelegalities involved, and it just
took somebody with some uhcojones to get out there and do
(10:47):
it and just let the chips fallwhere they may.
And they've handled the thewhole process so well.
The they've legitimized itreally.
And the quality of their cloneis you know, it's imperceptible.
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
So um what did you do for the a clone?
I mean, you what program did youuse on that?
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Uh well, again, that's you know, uh same issues
with uh, you know, reproducingpeople.
You know, there's there's a lotof people out there with darts
just looking for a target.
Uh and it's a company called HeyGen.
Um, there's a couple companiesthat make lifelike uh avatars uh
(11:33):
or digital doubles.
And uh I my personal favorite isHey Gen.
They're they've been around awhile.
Again, they had the cojones toget out there in front and just
do it and uh you know deal withthe backside.
And surprisingly, uh toeveryone, really, there was no
backside.
(11:53):
There was no, there's so manypeople adapted to this that
there really was no pushback,other than you know,
journalistic or people thatdon't understand what's going
on, or people that just have anattitude or an opinion because
they can.
But for people that are actuallyworking in this industry, you
(12:15):
know, the they they see thevalue of this and uh and look
for the the quality suppliersand hey gen uh double with a 11
labs voice, and you can't tellthe difference anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (12:28):
This is incredible.
Do you spell that h-a-g-en?
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Uh it's h uh h-e-y capital G-E-N.
SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
And uh keep in mind that there's a lot of there's uh
a lot of companies doing this,but uh, you know, they're not
cheap when you get into theprofessional end of it, but it's
uh it's definitely worth it.
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
I think that that's brilliant.
Um thank you so much for that.
Um I'm in shock.
I can't wait to see the firstdocumentary.
Um so you I hope you know it'snot the first.
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
We've been doing it for a while, you know.
And the the thing that really uhbrings it home for me is you
know, back in 1989, I I uh uhtook Marlon Brando up to
Monterey and scanned him intothis uh cyberware computer.
Now, this is the same systemthat uh Jim Cameron used.
(13:33):
In fact, that's how I found outabout it.
Uh Jim Cameron used to scan theface of Marianne Mestri Antonio
for the abyss that for thatwater pseudopod thing.
Yes.
And then and then um I didMarlin uh uh and create a
photoreal human.
Um, and then he came back anddid uh Terminator, and you know,
(13:55):
next thing you know, scanninghumans and creating, you know,
that was the pipeline.
Uh and uh so I just followed hispipeline.
And but we've been makingphotoreal humans for years.
It just took a lot more moneyand time and effort.
It took two years to get thatmarlin so that it was working
(14:16):
good.
And by that time, the theproducers didn't want to know
anything about it, you know,they were all pissed off, excuse
me, my language.
They were all uh mad at the uhtime it took.
And we were surprised at thetime it took.
And by the time we got to makingto resurrecting uh Maryland,
(14:36):
well, that took um months.
So we went in about five yearsfrom years to get something done
to months to get something done,and now it's instant.
So that's the curve.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
Oh wow, that's the curve.
So we're really full all in now.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
That's it, it's all over.
SPEAKER_02 (15:03):
Okay, so for an independent filmmaker with a
limited budget, what are two orthree AI tools that you would
recommend for them to learnright now to stay competitive?
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Uh well, here again, things are changing.
And the power, the real power ofgenerative AI isn't a single
tool.
It's in the aggregators, thesecompanies that stitch a dozen
apps into one seamless workflow.
So um, you know, something thatmight have like, well, for
(15:39):
instance, uh uh they have aphoto generator um that gives
you sets and backgrounds.
They have maybe uh uh uh youknow generative uh CG program
that gives you uh houses and 3Dbuildings that uh virtual actors
(16:00):
can interact with.
It might have uh something likeSora that uh does video.
Um, you know, and can combineyou can give it one frame uh two
frames, uh you know, a startframe and an end frame, and
it'll actually build the scenein between.
Um and then you have like uhvoice cloning, so you'd have 11
(16:23):
labs in there, and you know, foryour characters, you'd use
Hajen.
So you can see how manydifferent applications you can
build into that pipeline.
And if you're paying thesubscription fees, professional
subsist subscription fees on 20different programs, that's gonna
be a couple thousand dollars amonth.
(16:44):
Easy, right?
Yes, if you and plus you've gotto manage all that in if you're
using them individually, butthese aggregators, um uh I use a
company called Artlist.
I don't mean to plug them, butthat just better if I don't,
because then people won't, youknow, crowd the pipeline.
But um, you know, there's a lotof them out there.
(17:07):
Artlist is one, and they have ohmore than a dozen, I think about
20 different leading generativeuh uh they just got banana,
which is fantastic.
Um but uh you know, so now youjust you just have one bill at
the end of each month, and it'sa lot more manageable uh by at
(17:30):
least the decimal place.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
Okay, so you go to ArtLift and then you put
together uh you uh the programsyou want, like 11 labs and
whatever else, and then you payone person and they give you
everything?
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
Yeah, well, you don't even have to put it
together, just they've goteverything, they've built a uh
uh uh user interface, a GUI,that actually incorporates all
the different applications.
So uh you don't even have toknow anything about uh AI
generative art to uh use an art,it's called art list.
(18:10):
Uh and you really don't have toyou know know anything other
than how to type.
Just install a command line.
SPEAKER_02 (18:21):
Oh, how wonderful.
Filmmakers, thank you so much.
Okay, so now the next questionis uh teachers, how do you learn
to prompt a computer?
Because I use like chat GPT andI'll get something, then my uh
my marketing manager will putthe same thing in chat GPT and
(18:44):
get something better.
So obviously he's better atprompting.
SPEAKER_00 (18:50):
Yeah, well, prompting is the ticket.
I mean, that prompting is a newlanguage, it's just like
learning German or Japanese,it's a new language, and you
have to learn how to um get tothe ground truth of what it is
you want.
Uh you're talking to a machine,so it really doesn't have uh an
(19:13):
emotional uh spine to thediscussion, it has uh limits and
blocks and structure, and uh youneed to just learn what the
elements of that language are,and so there's a lot of ways you
can learn it.
Uh hunt and miss, hit and missis one, you know, just sit down
(19:34):
and do it is another.
Uh there's dozens of online uhclasses.
MIT has a full spectrum ofclasses in their edX program,
that's small e, small d, big X.
Um the Microsoft series is youknow very popular, uh free.
(19:56):
Um so um more than that, uhGemini 3.0 now has vibe coding.
So uh vibe coding is just uh itactually does this uh computer
scripting as well.
You just say what you wantsomething to do.
So uh for a screenwriter,obviously uh the game industry
(20:19):
is is the major influence now inin media um because of the
interactivity and so forth.
And so to get a result in to tomake a a script relevant to a
future where spatial media andbespoke entertainment and you
(20:40):
know uh use user authorship isis trending.
Um you have to code a bit, andthis vibe coding from Gemini 3
just gets it all into a promptuh structure.
(21:00):
So it's uh again not uh obscureat all.
It's just straightforward codingum and adaptable to the person
that's actually uh doing theprompting, regardless of their
uh you know, ability to dealwith computers and their
(21:22):
computer mass and knowledge.
So uh it's it's just uh sit downand do it.
There's just no better way tosay it.
This is nothing secret to it atall.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
So it's become more uh friendly, more
human-friendly, and it's not asfrightening, I guess.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
You can put it very well.
It's AI doing what AI issupposed to do.
AI is supposed to make it easyto deal with.
If AI isn't easy to deal with,it's not good AI.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Wow, that's a great statement, okay.
I'll remember that.
You have a fabulous book.
Um, in uh you discuss the chainof production being overturned
by algorithms.
So, what does this mean for filmfunding and distribution
(22:19):
strategies?
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Well, algorithms are tearing the chain of production
apart.
So, you know, suddenly uh indiefilmmakers aren't begging at
studio gates, they're pitchingto niche audiences.
Um niche audiences are you knowshowing up everywhere,
crowdfunding brands andalliances that didn't exist 10
years ago.
The best part is that uhproduction crop costs are
(22:44):
dropping so fast, like this uhuh documentary just did.
I mean, seriously, we could havedone this on the free version of
most of these uh apps that weused.
Um it's you know, the the pricesare dropping so fast that uh
(23:04):
self funding is becoming the newblack.
You know, it's you know, forgetthe old gatekeepers, algorithms
can.
Your film in front of the exactpeople who'll care about you
know what your content is.
So basically the little guy canplay the big uh game if they
know the the cheat codes.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
Okay, now that's really important for independent
filmmakers that algorithms canput in it in front of you your
audience.
Tell us how they would be ableto find an audience.
Let's say you had a film abouthorses.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
Sure.
Okay, so you sit down at ChatGPT and say, I got a film about
horses.
You just type that.
And it goes, that's nice.
Where's my market?
And it's going to give you, it'sgoing to tell you where your
market is.
It's going to tell you whereyour market is better than any
advertising agency or marketingagency on Wall Street.
(24:03):
Period.
That's it.
That's who your market is.
So now you say, This is nice.
How do I address them?
That's your prompt.
That's all you need to do.
Boom.
And it'll give you anotherprintout of things you can do,
you know, best practices.
And that's what you knowgenerative AI is heading
(24:27):
towards.
It it gets easier to use everyday.
And so if you're having aproblem with interfacing with
AI, it's because you're usingold AI.
Just, you know, you got toupgrade it every you know, once
a week.
If you're not upgrading once aweek, you're using old AI.
Um, because it's moving so fast.
(24:49):
I mean, this is it's obviouslyit's you know, it's gonna take
over the world.
Uh, because you know, last timewe had a chance to even think
about controlling it was back in2016.
Uh and now, you know, differentcompanies, they have they have
to just everybody's got theirfoot on the accelerator because
(25:10):
nobody can slow down.
I mean, you know, Google can'tslow down because Microsoft
won't, and Microsoft can't slowdown because Anthropic can't
won't slow down, and you know,nobody's gonna slow down because
China's just you know, got theturbochargers on.
SPEAKER_02 (25:29):
Yes, yes, China really is into that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Oh, I just got back from there.
Just it's crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Oh, tell us, tell us.
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
Um well, the uh first of all, you get you've got
a lot more government support.
Although we are getting intothat.
Uh, you know, it's the only waythat you know we can keep it up.
Um and uh the government supportis is huge on this.
(25:58):
They have their robots are youknow everywhere, but they've
been doing this for a long timenow.
They're they've had a a longhistory of of robot develop
robotic development.
Um, and it's just now that youknow the anthropomorphic robots
are really taking the lead.
That's the human-shaped robots.
(26:20):
And it it makes a lot of sensebecause when you're in a factory
environment, you know, does therobot shape, the the form factor
of the robot really doesn'tmatter so much because it's a
factory and it just does whatyou know, it's shaped like what
it does.
Um, but in uh human accessiblerobots, uh you know, service
(26:43):
robots and and so forth, um,they need to be anthropomorphic
because they need to work in aworld designed for humans.
And we have a shape thateverything from you know, cars
to doorways to stairs to youknow, cutlery, kitchen cutlery.
I mean, everything is designedfor humans and our appendages.
(27:05):
So for a robot to be efficient,it needs to be, it needs to echo
that design metaphor.
Does that make sense?
Yes, right.
There you go.
That's it.
So anybody that doesn't get whythey're making robots to look
like humans, that's why.
Because it's foolish not to.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
I read about a man who worked for Google, and and
he said on his way to his officeevery day, he walked by a uh
window where there was a roomand they were trying to teach
robots.
How to pick up a yellow ball.
That was the game.
And so this went on for twoyears, and the day that the
(27:50):
robot picked up the yellow ball,he was in shock.
And he said that did it for him.
He got out of business becausehe said, this is going to take
over everything.
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
Yep.
Well, yeah, yeah, I'm not a hugeAI robot fan.
So I mean, we um I was the CTOof a uh uh uh AI company that
created uh AI cognizance modulesfor the game industry.
So that that allows you to talkwith your characters and allow
(28:29):
uh it helps the characters talkwith you and be interested in
what you're doing and you knowtell you when to duck in
first-person shooters and uh youknow which car to steal and
Grand Theft Auto and you know,da-da-da-da.
So um this uh company Softbank,who's a little company, no,
(28:52):
they're a huge company actually,but um they don't really get a
lot of press, but they'reprobably the biggest robot
manufacturer in the worldbecause they own Boston Dynamics
and they they own a lot of thethe pipeline that creates robots
and um robotics, and uh they hadthis little robot.
(29:12):
We're going back uh you know adecade almost, and they had this
little robot called the pepper,and it was the most fantastic
little robot.
You just fell fell in love withthis thing, it was it had full
physiological uh matchinghumanoid physiology above the
waist, and then it was on theselittle rollers, which was a
great combination.
(29:32):
So um when you become bipedal,that's a whole level of
difficulty.
But uh, you know, if somethingcan be uh wheel-based or you
know uh tread-based, uh, it'sit's much easier just to
concentrate on the uh theinteraction and the technology
rather than the logistics ofmechanical bipedalism.
(29:56):
Um but um this little robot,this uh pepper robot, uh they
sent sent us one of these thingsto upgrade the cognizance.
They we had a Sentio cognizanceengine that was a universal uh
brain cognizance that can bestuck into just about any game
(30:18):
engine-based um environment.
And so uh Softbank asked us toupgrade their pepper robot with
our cognizance engine, and whenwe did, it turned into a person.
That's it.
It's you know, no caveatsneeded, and uh, you know, it
(30:39):
carried on conversations like aperson, and so we uh we
prototyped this uh uh eldercare, robotic elder care program
uh for uh National Institutes ofHealth.
And it's just um you know thetechnology moves really fast,
(31:00):
and um there's uh the medicalmachine out there that didn't
quite see eye to eye with thatkind of thing.
So uh but we have a big we havea big problem coming up, you
know, this the silver tsunami,you know, there's more old
people every day, and there'sfewer people to take care of
(31:21):
them every day.
So, you know, that's that's acrisis, and robots are the only
solution for that.
Um and uh there's a lot ofpending crises that robots are
the solution to.
So it's not whether people likethem or don't like them, they're
they're they're coming, whetheryou like them or not.
(31:43):
And they uh they are anotherbreed of human, they're of
people, I should say, and uhyeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:54):
Thank you.
My gosh, you know so much, andthey are like us will love you
for sharing all thisinformation.
But um, let me go back to myquestions about like virtual
actors and digital people.
So, how do you see rightsownership and compensation
(32:15):
evolving when your league actormight be a generative model, not
a beat model?
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
Yeah, yeah, I've been dealing with this for
years.
Marlin, uh Maryland, the wholething.
The solution is simple.
You sit down with an agent or anestate lawyer and you strike a
professional agreement.
That's it.
There's no magic, no secretsauce.
It's just professionals doingwhat professionals do.
(32:43):
Now you got unions and guilds,and everybody's got, you know,
gets up in arms because nobodyreally understands this outside
of people that are doing it.
So if you're an executive ofsome guild or some uh company
that's you know crossedinterests, you you're you know,
(33:04):
you got to rant about it, butthat's about it.
There's no secret sauce.
Um, just professionals doingwhat professionals do.
Everything else is hot air.
So there's really no math ormystery to it.
Um, compensation is you know,pretty straightforward.
It's just business.
And case in point, last month,Matthew McConaughey and Michael
(33:26):
Cain both signed deals with 11labs to clone their voices.
There you go.
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Yes, I saw that.
So wait, what does that mean toall of us?
SPEAKER_00 (33:39):
That's how it works.
There's no they're coming, it'sbusiness as usual.
Uh, there's many more peoplethat have are doing that.
Uh likenesses are the samething.
Uh to I just sat in on the theuh I was asked to sit in on the
(33:59):
the the dealing uh for uh threecelebrities that are having
themselves cloned that will beavailable for uh use in your
movie um or a commercial orwhatever you want.
And uh, you know, the clones aredamn good, they're just really,
(34:21):
really good.
Um and because you know, ifokay, let's say you're an actor,
uh okay, you're never gonna lookbetter than you look today.
So today is a good day to get aclone made.
Period.
I mean, that's just logic.
And and even if you don't marketit now, put it in a shelf, put
(34:45):
it in a hard drive, and uh, youknow, because everybody's gonna
be doing it pretty soon, andagain, you're never gonna look
better than you look today.
So the logic is just so solidthat you can't argue it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:00):
Yes.
Well, let me go back to MatthewMcConaughey.
Could you go to 11 labs and buyhis voice to go in a
documentary, for example?
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
Hold on just a second.
I'm at my computer.
I'm just gonna go to 11 labs andsee if we can get it.
Um bear with me.
There we go.
There's 11 labs.
Um let me see.
Voices.
Hey, okay, you ready for this?
(35:34):
What?
License.
Oh, there he is.
Okay, so wow.
They're gonna be doing doing abunch of them.
Um and let me see.
So they've got quite oh, herethey just got Dorothy from
Wizard of Oz.
Oh my god.
(35:55):
Oh, you should see.
Uh just go to 11labs.
It's 11labs.io.
And uh so anybody listening,there you go.
And right at the top, there'sMichael Cain, and there's oh
wow, that looks like uh.
(36:17):
Oh yeah, they've got a lot ofpeople.
So Alan Turing, Lana Turner, ohmy goodness.
So I think that Betty Page, ourAmelia Air Fork.
Let's see what he sounds like.
(36:39):
Did you get that?
No, do it again.
Uh let me see.
I'm trying to figure out how wecan get this.
Oh, Maya Angelou.
Oh, I bet that's a great voice.
Hold on.
Yes.
Oh, they nailed her.
Oh my goodness.
Uh John Wayne.
(37:00):
That's just cracking me up.
Okay, so oh, Lisa Minnelli, I'msorry.
Wow.
Uh, I'm sorry, it's not for somereason, it's not making it
through to uh our pipeline here.
So, but it's 11labs.io.
Uh, and just um go to voices,and uh you have uh their
(37:25):
standard voices, you can cloneyour own voice, um, and then you
have your own voice catalogs,and then it'll have this uh new
legendary voices uh catalog?
So there you go.
I think that answers that.
SPEAKER_02 (37:40):
Wow, thank you.
That's a lot of information.
Great.
Well, in your book, Post Cinema,The Age of AI, you mentioned
quantum AI, spatial computing,and brain computer interfaces in
the book.
So, which of these technologiesdo you believe will impact film
(38:01):
production first and why?
Ooh.
SPEAKER_00 (38:07):
Uh, well, of the three, brain computer interfaces
are already landing the firstpunches.
So um it's not when, it'salready happening.
Um, and then you've got on themarket, you've got uh things
like well, meta uh the metawristband um is reading your
nerve impulses and steering yourAR glasses like a psychic TV
(38:28):
remote.
So that's you know alreadythere.
But you know, the truth is oncequantum computing enters the
mix, everything we're doingtoday is going to look like
we're banging rocks together.
So it's it's already happening.
SPEAKER_02 (38:45):
Gosh, how amazing.
Okay.
Uh the next question is that ifthe filmmakers ignore the
implication of postcinema andcontinue to work in the old
system, what risk are theyrunning?
SPEAKER_00 (39:04):
Um, well, you know, it's it's always going to be
there, it's not going anywhere.
Um, so the risk is what I callthe reverse hockey stick of
relevance.
Uh technology rarely replacesanything, it just keeps adding
options.
So uh, you know, people stillride horses, but they don't win
(39:24):
the race.
Uh so if you stay in the oldsystem, you're basically showing
up at the Indy 500 on a pony.
Um filmmaking is still gonna bearound, it's gonna be a niche.
People still using shootingblack and white.
Um you know, retro filmmaking isis a niche, and this is you
(39:47):
know, so now modern filmmakingis gonna become another niche.
SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
It's another niche, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:53):
It's not gonna be called modern filmmaking, it'll
be called, you know, digitalfilmmaking, maybe, or something.
I don't know.
Maybe they'll be come up with acute word for it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:04):
Okay.
Well, uh, let me ask you, whatdo you think is the opposite
side for those?
Um, because on the flip side,what new opportunities are
emerging for storytellers whoembrace post-cinema?
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
Yeah, this is the big one.
It's well, so Hollywood spent 25years fighting AI.
You know, the game industry hasspent the same 25 years
developing it.
So who do you think is gonnawin?
SPEAKER_02 (40:34):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (40:35):
Right?
So, yeah, I mean, we got spatialmedia, bespoke entertainment.
There's a lot of stuff comingdown the line.
It just doesn't fit intoHollywood metaphor.
So here's the real shift forstorytellers.
That's screen script writingitself is changing.
You know, interactivity, spatialmedia, bespoke entertainment,
(40:56):
and they all just demand scriptsthat move more like prompts.
And prompts are ruthless.
As I said before, they you know,they force you to articulate the
ground truth of your vision.
And ground truth is, you know,if that's not in your
vocabulary, that's a computer,uh, AI computer word.
(41:18):
And ground truth is the mostimportant word to learn in AI
because that's what it's basedon.
Um, and when you're forced toarticulate that, uh, you know,
it's a direct line between humanintention and uh machine
interpretation, and it stripsaway all the comforting patinas
(41:42):
of pretext.
So bad prompt, bad result,garbage in, garbage out.
So AI might hand you somethinggorgeous to look at, or words
that sound poetic, but once themachine is done showing off, you
know, what's left as the gamepipeline uh becomes the new
(42:03):
engine of production, everythingthat comes back to that, the
prompt and the agency behind it.
So, you know, it's it's it's notparticipation, it's authorship
that's really going to be um themain concern here.
SPEAKER_02 (42:19):
Authorship, okay.
Well, finally, if you could takeuh leave one takeaway for
filmmakers uh on how to positionthemselves for success in the
age of AI, what would that be?
SPEAKER_00 (42:41):
Um well they need to learn the uh the new lingo.
That would that would be umtrying to think what a good
example of that.
(43:01):
So it's the shift in in scriptwriting.
It's I mean it really startswith the ship the shift in
screenwriting, I would say.
Um and then it's also investorsneed to stop asking how much AI
does it use and start askingwhose hands it's in.
Uh because if a project looks orfeels like CG, you're not
(43:24):
dealing with a visionary, you'redealing with a a hobbyist.
Uh and so there's this old rulein cinema that um that uh uh the
illusion only works when youforget it's there.
SPEAKER_02 (43:43):
Oh my gosh, that's so true.
SPEAKER_00 (43:46):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, back theLumiere brothers terrified an
audience when a uh with you knowthey projected on a wall this
train pulling into the stationand people jumped up and ran out
of the theater.
SPEAKER_02 (44:00):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
It hasn't changed since then.
That's that's all that's allyou're doing.
And so if you can't do that withAI, yeah it can't be done.
So um that would be uh probablyjust stay focused on that.
SPEAKER_02 (44:23):
Um that, yes.
Because it is illusion, so youryour audio has to be perfect,
your visuals are perfect.
You you just have to maintain uhyour skills from normal
filmmaking and learn AI toimprove them.
Look at AI as an improvement.
SPEAKER_00 (44:45):
Yeah, and so as you know, since it all starts with
the script, yes this thescreenwriter needs to embrace a
new a new grammar.
Uh wide shot isn't just anestablishment, it's it's an
invitation to explore, right?
(45:08):
Spatial media, okay, and framingisn't where the director.
Points to the camera anymore.
It's it's where the viewerchooses to look.
But perhaps most importantly,story beats aren't fixed moments
on a timeline.
They're events that wait for youto arrive.
SPEAKER_02 (45:28):
Oh yes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:30):
Can you feel that shift?
So it yeah, so in this newgrammar, characters stop
performing for you and startreacting to you.
A close-up is an emotion, it'sthe story looking back at you.
And this the shift inunderstanding and meaning.
(45:51):
Uh you know, if you get it,you're not ahead of the curb,
you're you're actually shapingthe new one.
SPEAKER_02 (45:59):
Wow, how brilliant, Scott.
Thank you.
This has been an incredibleamount of information for
independent filmmakers.
Thank you for sharing all this,and thank you for writing this
incredible book.
Because they're going to learnthe language of AI by reading
(46:22):
your book, Scott.
SPEAKER_00 (46:24):
Um, yeah, yeah, so that's kind of what it's about.
SPEAKER_02 (46:29):
Well, thank you very much for taking us behind the
curtain of post-inema.
I really recommend your book toall of our listeners.
I found it to be incrediblysimple to understand and full of
great ideas.
So your vision helps usunderstand not just where
filmmaking is going, but how wecreators can step forward with
(46:53):
courage, curiosity, and a senseof possibility.
That's the key.
So, if to our listeners today,if you enjoy this conversation,
uh, please check out From theHeart Productions online because
we're here to champion yourvoice and support your journey.
(47:14):
So, whether you're developingyour first script or creative,
immersive, AI-driven worlds, orfinishing a documentary with an
urgent message, our Roy DeanFilm Grants, the fiscal
sponsorship, the film fundingclasses, and the filmmaker
community are all designed toempower you.
(47:34):
And we believe that film changeslives and filmmakers change the
world.
So you can learn more about ourgrants and sponsorships at
FromTheHeartProductions.com.
Thank you for joining us.
Keep creating, keep innovating,and above all, keep believing in
(47:56):
your vision.
And we'll see you next time onthe Art of Film Funding.
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